Spain committed to best UK relations but asks for Gibraltar sovereignty talks
Spain has formally asked Britain to reopen talks over the sovereignty of Gibraltar. The petition was made by Spanish Foreign Minister José Manuel Garcia-Margallo shortly after UK Europe Minister David Lidington told an audience in Madrid that Britain would not discuss sovereignty against Gibraltar’s wishes.
Garcia-Margallo called an unscheduled meeting with Mr Lidington on Wednesday and set out Spain’s position. He said the Popular Party government of Mariano Rajoy wanted “...progress in everything related to Gibraltar, which must include dialogue with the UK on issues of sovereignty,” according to a statement issued by the Spanish Ministry for Foreign Affairs.
Minister Lidington’s response came on Thursday during a question and answer session on Twitter, during which he fielded a number of questions on Gibraltar. On two occasions he summed up the UK position within Twitter’s 140-character limit.
“The UK will not enter into sovereignty arrangements or negotiations with which Gibraltar is not content,” Mr Lidington tweeted. And again: “The UK’s sovereignty commitment to the people of Gibraltar is clear and unchanged: we will respect their wishes.”
At first glance the two positions look sharply at odds, but both ministers left room to manoeuvre.
At one point in the Q+A session, Mr Lidington made clear that this was not a choice between protecting Gibraltar’s interests or maintaining good relations with Spain.
“UK [is] committed to safeguarding Gibraltar’s interests & continuing to work closely with Spain. This is not ‘zero sum’,” he tweeted.
Likewise in the statement, the Spanish Foreign Minister made clear that, despite its position on Gibraltar, Madrid wanted “the best relations” with Britain. But he insisted that any bilateral discussion on sovereignty with Britain “must have no limit on its content”.
During their meeting on Wednesday, Garcia-Margallo also told Lidington that Spain wanted to change the format of the Trilateral Forum and “expand” it to include representatives from the Campo de Gibraltar and the Junta de Andalucia.
Spain sees this as a way of keeping sovereignty issues separate from matters of regional cooperation.
On Thursday a spokesman for the Gibraltar Government told Europa Press news agency that it was up to Spain who it included in its delegation.
“The Government of Gibraltar backs the Trilateral Forum and is willing to discuss all issues of cooperation within it,” the spokesman was reported as saying. “The composition of the Spanish delegation is a matter for the Spanish government.”
The spokesman added that the same principle applied to the UK and Gibraltar governments.
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48 comments Feed
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The Spanish, just like the Argentinians, are having a laugh!
Another routine for the RAF search and rescue teams...
P.s. am sure Prince willaim and many other members of the royal family have visited Gibralter too.
Yet she refrains from anything more that egoism,
You should learn.
.
Do some research on the matter before posting idiotic comments.
no
William went to the Falklands by plane, and will be flying helicopters
Warships are for sailors, are they not?
,
For your information, we don't need to send warships to Gibraltar. Spain is a fairly civilised country (as they are a member of the European Union and also a modern developed country). There is no military threat from Spain as they have not tried to invade Gibraltar recently. Argentina is obviously different. The RAF have a permanent base in Gibraltar, just like the Falkland islands.
Your argument is fairly poor until you relate it to facts. You may like to try again...
I say this not to insult you all, but you insist on this supercilious attitude when speaking of Argentina, when likely most of your grandparents remember the REAL Europe, the one that always was: a hellhole.
One from which millions escaped to this side of the word.
Stay humble guys.
And yet if we mention how Argentina was throwing it's people out of jets a mere thirty years ago “That was decades ago get over it”
Double standards much?
If our European guests (this is a new world website after all), remained sensible and were not so quick to pull the trigger of a gun with an opposite-directional double-barrel, you would not get so bloodied. :p
@Tobias
You calling us barbarians? Thats rich coming from an argentina whom until only in recent history slaugther millions of native south americans and killed 30,000 of its own people as recently as the 1980's alot of whom were thrown out off a plane at 10,000 feet alive and concious. And don't even think about playing we were under as junta card, as thats not only tiring but pathetic. It also makes you hypocrites when you try and lane the blame of our ancestors actions on to modern brits. Happy to blame us for our ancestors actions yet not willing to take the blame when it comes to your own parents and grand parents, well thats just truely pathetic and shows what sad arrogant selfish hypocritical scum of the earth argentines like yourself really are. Your not even worth pissing on, even if you were on fire.
I'm growing tired of your European ignorance. Tautology, if there ever was one.
You guys started it on this article. Get over it.
That is many countries you are painting with the same brush there.
Teaboy2 - you are totally right! They seemed to have failed to have made it to the 21st Century, their political understanding seems to be stuck in the 1980s.
When Europeans desist pontification from the Pantheon at the hilltop to those of us in the subjacent vales of turpitude, then I'll stop my captious attitude. Since by the way that citadel at the summit—and the message itself—are flyblown by arrant hypocrisy.
I don't know why they do it?
I would be embarrassed about being a charity case and not being able to support yourselves!
Just getting our money back for all the help.
My ignorance, your probably the moust deluded selfrightous ignorant prat i have come across, as its obvious Argentina is not the good world saving country your making it out to be. And not only that reread the comments you will see it was marcus and kiwi that started it off in this argument, or is this a case of argentina can say what it wants about us brits and we do not have the right to respond just like you believe the falkland islanders do not have any rights. ALso i again refer you to your comments about babarism, when its clear your countries not flaming angel either and have butchered millions.
As for a couple of billion in aid to italy and a few millions or so in spain during the famine. Lol thats not even a pocket full of change compared the the trillions britian has spent not only rebuilding europe and asian nations after WW I and WWII but also in aid to developing countries annually. £7 million of our taxs payers cash goes in aid to argentina each year, and your making us out to be the bad guys.
What make me laugh is you think your smart, yes you can spell nice words and speak good english but i can tell you now, you have a hell of alot to learn about international law and respect of other peoples rights. YOur what i call a toffee noised twat, i.e. a person from a rich family that was spoilt and shield from the realities of the real world who then thinks hes better then the rest and knows everything, when he really knows sweet F all about anything. And you know what i don't give a rats arse what you think of me, because i know i am 1000 times better than you, oh and i made myself a millionaire and did not have a rich family to provide me too. What have you done in live other than been a toffee noise posh twat?
Like I said a couple days ago to another compatriot of yours, a European bemoaning hewed and long annihilated forests? Have you no shame sir? :)
@Teaboy
I'm very appreciative of the complements. I haven't said anything about Argentina here, if you read the vast majority of my comments.
You are wrong on your history, wrong on your statistics, wrong on your opinions, wrong on your biography of me. At least you are consistent.
Thank you for letting us know you are a millionaire. That is extremely relevant to the debate at hand.
Additionally, my deepest gratefulness to you for informing us that, according to an unbiased observes such as yourself, you are '1000 times better than” tobias. Again, I really cannot fathom how the debate could have progresses with that invaluable contribution by you.
So we now know that you are a millionaire, and better than tobias. Are there any other riveting contributions such as the ones above you'd like to share in order for the debate to continue?
FFS *roll eyes* You've just succeeded at showcasing yourself as the most arrogant, self-righteous excuse for a human being on this thread. But, hey, don't let me stop you! Carry on
One from which millions escaped to this side of the word
Croatia seeks extradition of Nazi in Argentina
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/77173.stm
Adolf Otto Eichmann
Josef Rudolf Mengele
Ratlines (German: Rattenlinien) were a system of escape routes for Nazis and other fascists fleeing Europe at the end of World War II. These escape routes mainly led toward havens in South America, particularly Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil, Uruguay, and Chile. Other destinations included the United States and perhaps Canada and the Middle East. There were two primary routes: the first went from Germany to Spain, then Argentina; the second from Germany to Rome to Genoa, then South America; the two routes “developed independently” but eventually came together to collaborate.[1]
Or do they want all three disputed territories for themselves!.
Teaboy,
lt doesn't matter about spelling etc.
Don't let them get to you. l enjoy your posts.
You & briton are refreshingly “countrypeople” The Yeomen of Olde England. The men who stood fast at many a battle.
Never did have much time for smooth, silver tongued “sophisticated”people who use a lot of words.........just like politicians
Don't tell them too much(says me who have posted far too much personal information here!).
When the dust has cleared, we are right & they are wrong.
We own the Falklands & they do not.
Quite simple, really.♥
Learning from the Argies now, eh? At least 1 in 4 of the workforce with no work, economy down the tubes, sounds like a distraction ploy to me, just like CFK and the Falklands (there are no Malvinas).
This was clearly seen over Cyprus (Greece & Turkey) and the former Yougoslav republics, where certain conditions had to be met for entry negotiation to begin.
Spains position on this issue ”any bilateral discussion on sovereignty with Britain “must have no limit on its content”, is simply un-sustainable, and will probably be challenged by the Gib Government in several EU instutions.
No prises for guessing the outcome.
@Helber # 23 - No i am not losing it Helber at all, I have stated it many times on here that i am a millionaire business man same with the fact i am dyslexic, if your re-read my post i proceeded to ask Tobia just what he has achived in his life, and reason why is because as far as am concerned tobia is just a person who grew up part of a rich family, was spoilt, learnt english and a few fancy words, but other than that has achieved nothing but living of his parents, like all toffee nose twats do. Was i saying i was better than tobias as a person, par se? No just that i was better than him as a person as i have achieved more in my life. Why am i 1000 times better than tobias, well thats simple i respect other peoples rights to self determination and don't go about supporting colonisation of an island that does not wish to be argentine, nor do i go aroung belittling other countries that have done more for world peace, given more aid than many other countries by trying to make out an other county like argentina has done more for the world when it has done the exact opposite. Nor do i go round accusing others of starting an argument, when it was clear in this comment section that the argument was started by marcus and Kiwi. The arrogant selfrightous human beings here are argentines
@isolde #25
Thank you, thats much appricated.
I don't know what has happened with Tobias, he is usually a fairly level headed guy, but just recently seems to be a different person.
Perhaps it's a shift change problem, but I wouldn't let it worry you. :o)
tobias is merely here to whine about how offended he is when Britons are mean about argentina, a matter he thinks is more pressing and important then both the basic human rights of the islanders, argentines spineless hypocrisy, and the horrific ordeal of native argentines.
plus having your nation crumble around you while you frantically type to defend it is not good for one's stability, especially when the bloodthirsty mobs in the street are also more concerns with whining about the Falklands
also kind of an odd question but have you ever seen the film “the room”?
You are not a dumb person. You are fully cognizant how you bruit about figures like “millions of natives killed”, “100,000 disappeared”... Anyone on this website realizes your statistics are either premeditated claptrap or otherwise spur of the moment opprobrium. I have read them time and time again, and the reason I have neither disputed them directly nor disabused you from your feeble mathematics, is because arguing the actual numbers of dead people is an asinine, ghoulish endeavor, one which does not redound to ameliorate the heinous events at the core described.
Whether 15,000 dead or millions dead, the ineffable horror was the same; therefore, I rather dredge up other plutonian chapters of history wholesale. Because each individual event has equal absolute immorality standing on its own, no matter how many of you attempt to extenuate them with the lurid and hollow relativism of body for body tabulations. And if none of you believe me on this point, I invite you to approach a victim of any historical crime and ask them if the historical event in which their loved one(s) perished has less intrinsic worth juxtaposed to the more iniquitous tragedies of humanity.
Teaboy, and everyone else:
You will learn that I make arguments within arguments, and at times argument within those, to stratagem and prove a larger conviction planned all along; I am very recursive in my methods and my longanimity in debates is significant.
I shall address this larger point of mine and the conclusion I draw from it in a near-future response, as I do not have enough character space to elucidate my peroration here.
I do not have enough character space to elucidate my peroration here.
I hope this helps Toby
C is for contrafibularity
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOSYiT2iG08
a. Virtually all of you—perspicuously or desultorily—have laid the case that Argentina is not trustworthy on the Falklands due to past and present events. And have further adduced that years, likely decades, of good behavior would need to ensue in order for this condition to change. That is fair observation (notice I have never oppugned it).
b. Those of you who have engaged me in the economic debates have also touched on the same theme: that in order for investors and even locals to trust Argentina with investments, years and years would have to elapse for confidence to return.
c. For those who have sparred with me in the “atrocity index” debates, it is also the case that you have built: Argentina was committing abhorrent crimes only 30 years ago, therefore it is to be trusted less in human rights than European nations.
What is the overarching theme here? Trust, and father Time.
As another contributor wrote, “What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”. The United Kingdom and Europe hold two millennia of belligerence, treachery, torture, conquest, racism, fundamentalism, murder, genocide, holocaust. Not 20 years, not 200 years, 2000. For contributors from these nations to sustain moral superiority is preposterous. It's hypocrisy. It's wrong (and the United States continues to this day, so they are beneath even this doleful picture).
Because you see, to expunge 2000 years of savagery, 60 years do not suffice. It is an affront to the hundred millions dead across Planet Earth from European policies, for such a lenient adjudication to be made. Especially when many of you lay blame on me for the actions of my prior generation, calling on me to attone for it.
Europe and it's people will have to prove a couple of CENTURIES of peace and debellicization (to borrow a British neologism), before WE will ever trust you. Good afternoon.
We don't need, want or even care if YOU trust us.
Quite simple, really.
May i remind you, that the majority of modern day argentines are of spanish, european decent, so when you refer to the historic history of torture and bararism by european peoples ancestors, you are also accusing your own ancestors of it too. But because you do not realise that, it clearly makes you a hypocrite and shows just how arrogant you are about your own ancestral histroy, espcially when your boasting about british and european history of abuse, when you yourself are just as much and ancestor of those people living in the time of such abuses. Which just goes to prove how stupid your comments really are, as your clearly try to make us out as the bad guys because of our ancestors actions, when you share the same flaming european ancestors. Pot calling the kettle black tobias.
Argentina is wrong here. I have said it before. We are wrong because even if our version of history is correct, I focus on the living people today. They are of British descent, let them remain so. So yes, I admit my country's current position is one I do not agree with and contest. To be honest, many argentines who live away from the coastline do not care about the Falklands, as an issue or as a location.
The only reason these other sideshows are brought up is because yes, Argentina shows hypocrisy on the matter, and because the British want to have it both ways in saying the islands are British territory, but simultaneously that British history is not relevant because the issue is the Falklanders. That does not fly either. Either they are British or they are not.
For the record, I do not acknowedge Europan ancestry. The new generation of Argentines are not like the past ones which showed pride in that heritage. We wish to disown it.
On the other hand, like another article said, many in this new generation also don't care about the Falklands.
Perhaps in 50 years your dreams will come true: Argentina will be run by people who renounce to the islands, and who also cut off any links and relationship to Europe for good.
Ceuta Espanol!
Melilla Espanol!
End of!
You can go on forever saying and talking about human rights and rights for self determination but you never talk about the ethnic cleansing that the british did when Gibraltar was ceded to the United Kingdom (treaty of Utrect 1713) worth having a read before you keep on reclaiming more land from the sea .
of nice try robbing our black swan the court was in our favour for a reason tryoing to wipe out uk national debt using spanish property . goodbye and cheery ooooo
The uk made it clear the islands will remain british for so long as the islanders wish it. Its been that way since 1982. Its not the territory were beothered about but the wishes of the people that live on it. We have made it clear many times, if the islanders wished to be independant or become argentine we would support their wishes. So i fail to see where you get that “britain wants to have it both ways” from.
As for your disowning you ancestors and your/their history - sorry but i fail to see how that makes it right for you to still accuse us of guilt over the actions of our ancesters. We ourselves have disapproved of the abuses our anchesters committed but we still support the good that they did. You simply can not disown your ancesterol history and spains history, just because you are now argentina. After all, your country is a result of spanish colonisation and there is no denying that or that of the actions of argentina. End of the day the world has moved on from the actions of the past. So why you brought it up in the first place whilst conviently now claiming to disown your own history and that of your ancestors actions, whilst still using that of our history and ancestors actions against us - is beyond me.
I still don't understand why you have to go into the private sphere and ask “if your re-read my post i proceeded to ask Tobia just what he has achieved in his life”? In other words, why can you not limit your engagement to the poster's arguments rather than the poster's personal/private life?
You then go on and state “Was i saying i was better than tobias as a person, par se? No just that i was better than him as a person as i have achieved more in my life.”
Again, why is it important for you to go into this private realm that has nothing to do with the debate at hand? Besides, who cares (obviously you do) if you 'have achieved more in your life”?
In much the same sense, I do not see any need for you to share that you are a millionaire and dyslexic. That does not given anything to the argument at hand. I am sure you are able to see this clearly yourself.
Can I recommend we engage each others with the issues as hands rather than our personal lives?
As for “Can I recommend we engage each others with the issues as hands rather than our personal lives?” I agree - but its impossible to that when the issue is of such a personal importance to all people of both sides now isn't it!!
Not to mention they is no issue at hand other than the imaginary issue that argentina dreamt up over the falklands, thats they believe gives them the right to take something that is not theirs with no regard as to the rights of the islanders that live there.
Therefore this is personal, between us british, islanders and that of you argentines and anyone that supports argentinas attempt to colonise an islands and a people that have made it clear they want their islands to remain british.
And as for you saying their is no need for me to share private bits about myself like myself being dyslexic, well your wrong. The amounts of times i have been mocked for poor grammar or spelling and have had to remind people i am dyslexic on this site is evidence of that. And why should i not share bits about myself, its a free world and its my choice to do so.
I do not think there is any harm in my advice...
As for your contention that “its a free world and its my choice to do so”, you are indeed correct! If it gives you pleasure to make observations about your personal life (sometimes warranted as when you have to defend yourself from spineless accusations of having a typo; others, I believe not so warranted as, what I believe is, flaunting you are millionaire) please do! Now, as far as I am concerned, getting personal in our exchanges is an invitation to a downward spiral into hell and the only thing we miss out on is a good debate.
BTW, I read post #15 as you suggested. Now, if an accusation by someone of you being “European ignorant' can be construed as personal attack or insult, well then we might be in trouble.
Obviously the issue of Malvinas is indeed very important to us all. Otherwise I many of us wouldn't be posting here at all. Please do not dismiss Argentines interest in the topic. By all means, share with us how important it is to you and why, but do not speak in Argentines behalf and dismiss our interest by saying ”imaginary issue that argentina dreamt up over the falklands”. You have your arguments and Argentines have theirs. But believe me, there is more than dreaming going on here for all involved.
According to David Levinson “Afro Argentines number about 50, nearly all of whom now live in Buenos Aires. Argentina did not import large numbers of slaves, and the Afro Argentine population today is descended from freed slaves and slaves who escaped to Argentina from Bolivia, Paraguay, and Brazil. As part of the Europeanization program of the late 1880s, Afro Argentines were pushed off their land. African identity was defined as inferior, and warfare, disease, and intermarriage decimated the population. Although largely ignored and relegated to low-level jobs, the Afro Argentine community continues to function as a distinct community in Buenos Aires.”[31]
Criticisms of the national census state that data has historically been collected using the category of national origin rather than race in Argentina, leading to undercounting Afro-Argentines and mestizos.[32] The 1887 Buenos Aires census was the last in which blacks were included as a separate category.[33]
mate if you are going to cut and paste as you've done, show some decency and respect to the authors and also provide the sources. I am referring to numbers 31, 32, and 33.
Don't be a thief!!
King of the one liners
For one i was not stating i was a millioniare in order to fluant it, but purely to show what i have achieved in my life by becoming a self made millionaire in comparison to that of what Tobias may or may not have achieved in life. Taking my statements out their original context and trying to turn them it to nothing but a boast of my wealth is not going to help get this debate back to a more civilised form, now is it? If i wanted to flaunt my wealth i would be boasting about how i made it, how much i have, and how much i spend in any one day when i go out treating myself and what i spend it on, but i do not as i do not flaunt my wealth at all. Only time when i do mention it is when others have actually asked me. But that is not boasting/flaunting, thats merely being polite and responding to their questions. If i wanted to i could tell the world how i made my wealth, perhaps a biograpthy, but i prefer to be down to earth and not step in to the lime light, but eitherway why should i hide the fact am a millionaire through my own hard work, why should i be ashamed to tell people i am rich through my own hard work and determination. Only jealous people see it as flaunting and boasting, others see it as a sign of hope, because if i can do then so can they. In fact i help people everyday not just to make money but to resolve their money problems or other consumer or legal problems, i help those unemployed willing to but in some hard work to reap the financial benefits of such work too, if they have the will and determination to follow my guidance. So do i flaunt it, no, i simply prove it can be done and i actively helps others in the process to get their own business up and running and setting them on course to becoming finanically secure, how much wealth they make depends on them. Some who put hour after hour in will make a hell of a lot of money, those that only put a few hours in will simply only make a replacement or extra income. If i can do it so can they.
What about the ethnic cleansing of Spain during the reconquest from the Moors, or the Spanish Inquisition, not to mention Atahualpa and Montizuma.
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