Wednesday, July 17th 2013 - 07:41 UTC

Falklands: Timerman accuses Clarin of sponsoring the referendum and Foreign Office strategy

Argentine Foreign minister Hector Timerman in a piece published in the pro-government Pagina 12 accused Buenos Aires daily Clarin of silencing, distorting, hiding and even lying about events in Argentina and particularly regarding the Malvinas colonial issue and in the March referendum ‘of playing to the Foreign Office strategy’.

Today we can say that the English strategy failed because in nothing it altered the essence of the question, according to Timerman

The controversy was triggered because in a previous edition Clarin asked its readers if they were aware that in June the UN Decolonization Committee met in New York to deal with the Falklands/Malvinas issue, and the same Clarin concludes that ‘most probably not’.

A furious Timerman writes that Clarin readers don’t have to know since that newspaper deliberately hid the fact that the Foreign Office strategy of promoting a referendum in the Islands failed before the UN ‘nor did it publish other important events in which the Argentine position came out strengthened’, even when all this was underlined by the British media.

In effect it is some time now that Clarin editors are more concerned on how to free their boss Hector Magnetto from going to court to respond about human rights violations in which he is involved, than in reporting the current Argentine situation, writes Timerman.

He adds that in the Clarin article some cheap opinion-writer describes the Argentine position before the UN C24 as a ‘word salad’, while at the same time supporting the British position.

When the world and multilateral organizations decided not to legitimize the Falklands referendum, they did so because the Argentine ‘word salad’ was more forceful than London’s arguments, now sponsored by Clarin claims Timerman.

Today we can say that the English strategy failed because in nothing it altered the essence of the question and did not end the sovereignty dispute or the unquestionable rights of Argentina over the Malvinas, points out Timerman and then enumerates some extracts where he argues “Clarin shamelessly is not saying the truth”.

Clarin says that the UK is abandoning the C24, ‘false’ London can’t abandon C24 because it never belonged to it and at the same time recalls that 65% of all remnant colonial cases in the world belong to UK.

Clarin also missed the point because it published that there were no resident Islanders at the C24 debate, and Timerman provides the names of Sharon Halford and Mike Summers.

As to the fact that the UK strategic moves have exposed the weakness of the Malvinas policy, “what really has been exposed is the UK strategy”.

“No country in the world has accepted the results of the referendum. Why?

Maybe because the Argentine arguments, with little coverage from Clarin are far more forceful: the residents implanted by the metropolis in the Islands are not a people and thus the principle of self determination does not apply’, writes the minister.

Timerman adds it is worth taking notice that more and more countries are in the list of nations calling on London to dialogue since they consider the Malvinas are Argentine.

Finally Timerman makes a list of all the organizations that support Argentina in the dispute from the UN and OAS to G-77 and China; the South America Arab countries summit; South Atlantic zone of Peace and Cooperation; Mercosur; Unasur, ALBA.

More specifically on the natural resources of the Falklands and responding to Clarin statements that “since international oil prices will be going down, we should then have a nationalistic headache less”, Timerman says that the paragraph calls to concern since Argentine natural resources are not ‘a nationalist headache’, and if that were the case prepare for ‘more headaches’ since this government will not yield in its rights, domestic and international in defence of its hydrocarbon resources in the South Atlantic”.
 

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1 Kilkenny man (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 08:34 am Report abuse
You have to laugh at this it's straight out of the National Socialist propaganda hand book tell the biggest lie you can continuously with increasingly conviction while attacking all opposition especially any free press which might not keep to the party line ... I mean Clarin has often spouted the Malvinist point in the past ...as for the down right lies in this supposedly honourable representative I simple can not be bothered he has dishonoured himself and more importantly and sadly his country, I am sad to say I was once swayed by the Malvinist desire but I can see it is purely an ham foisted attempt at a land grab ..Just because Nations say their should be peacefully discussions in no way implies support it simply says their is no justification for aggression or War.
I read recently on some ones post that the current Argentinean administration has done more to assure that the Falklands will never become part of their country than anyone else. I must be honest I can not find anyone who has not been indoctrinated or on the pay role who would disagree .
In fact this side show is been used as a demonstration of how people do not learn from history all that is required now is a re armament ...Oh Waite Maraige jets from Spain and Helicopters from Italy and Russia and possibly equipment from China, All that is now required is the accidental fire at parliament buildings or some other excuse to become a single party state with a life long leader
2 Furry-Fat-Feck (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 08:36 am Report abuse
It's Timmertime! I thought he'd been a bit quiet this past week or so.
3 Musky (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 08:56 am Report abuse
@1 Killkenny man
Too right, it is just a land grab and their claim to the place is abject joke, based on mindless mantras and blind faith. All historical evidence, both argentine, british and independent (like the diaries of the naturalist Charles Darwin) =, show that Britain's claim is insurmountable.

Timmerman can say what he likes, perhaps he is in the pay of the Falklands legislative assembly, just like his bone head boss, because between the two, the resolve of the falklanders has been re-enforced.
Timmerman again talks like he owns the UN, like he owns Latin America and he spouts a long list of wacky countries who wouldn't know freedom or democracy if it bit them on the arse.
4 La Patria (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 09:07 am Report abuse
He's having a pop at clarin because it helps in cfk's battle with the media group. It's a cheap shot and so blatantly obvious it's embarrassing. Falklands is used here as an issue to try and get more anti-clarin sentiment.
5 Faz (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 09:15 am Report abuse
Gollum! Gollum....... Ssssssss. I wants it, I must have it, come to me precioussss. Nast islanders, nasty British, they stole it, they came with guns and tanks and I ran away but I must have it, wail wail wail.....

When will this dumkopf give it up . As a foreign minister he is a train wreck. He has the diplomatic skills of a skunk. When you can count so many failed nations and despots as allies, isn't that a sign of abject failure. KFC should sack him and replace him with an ape which would be more effective. Keep it up Timerpunk you are doing a grand job!
6 trenchtoast (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 09:17 am Report abuse
Something about this photo reminds me of Zippy from Rainbow.
7 Rufus (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 09:28 am Report abuse
@5 Faz you git. I've spilled a hot cup of tea over my keyboard because I was laughing so hard at your Hector-Golum.
8 lsolde (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 10:09 am Report abuse
He looks quite stupid & harmless waving his finger about like that.
Looks like a few bricks short of a load, too.
l think our “intransigence” might be getting to him. lol!
9 Pete Bog (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 11:27 am Report abuse
“they did so because the Argentine ‘word salad’”

Don't mention salads!

Crops that are easily grown in the oh so cold Falkland Islands and the oh so cold UK are mere dreams to Argentina who don't appear to be able to supply enough tomatoes despite having several times the land mass of the UK.

“Today we can say that the English strategy failed because”:

the Argentines can't touch the Falklands with their military, and the islands are still governed by the FIG and not imperialist Argentina.

That's a failed strategy?

Wonder what Timmerturd rates as a successful one?

“Clarin shamelessly is not saying the truth”.

Takes a liar to know one, Mr Timmerturd.

“No country in the world has accepted the results of the referendum“

Obviously Canada isn't a country to add to the numerous countries that are now, according to Timmerturd, 'non countries.' And the praise of the EU to the 'good governance 'of the Falklands, means that non of the EU countries exist either.

”the residents implanted by the metropolis“

Ahhh like the Spanish and Italians implanted in Argentina then?

” or the unquestionable rights of Argentina“

That'll be the same as the unquestionable rights of the UK to sovereignty followed by the unquestionable right of self determination for the Falkland Islanders.

@5 Faz

Lol at your nail on head.

”l think our “intransigence” might be getting to him. lol!”

How could you be so inconsiderate in having a better, more prosperous society than your western neighbours?

And not being in debt or your refusal to fly on clapped out Tu154s?
And how inconsiderate to be defended by people who don't loose wars and have competent armed forces that won't let the RGs walk in without an invite.

You could at least be less intransigent by making sure some of your boats/ships sink at their moorings (no offence, Afterglow et al), or have the human equivalent of an Elephant Seal run FIGAS.

How do Islanders sleep at night?
10 Benson (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 11:30 am Report abuse
Clarin is not publishing the Governments “truths”. How dare they, better shut them down eh Timmerman.
11 Anglotino (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 11:42 am Report abuse
The gift that keeps on giving!
12 Britworker (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 11:52 am Report abuse
Didn't the EU not just give the Falkland Islands 4 Million Euros because it was an overseas territory of the UK. Hardly an indication they do not support them.
13 ChrisR (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:01 pm Report abuse
The sad thing about all of this is there will be some Argentines who believe this criminal liar.

You just can't help this country.
14 manchesterlad (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:14 pm Report abuse
Clarin merely stated a fact that most RGs are not interesred in Tinpotman's theatrics anymore which is a blow to his ego since he puts so much time & effort into this lost cause

With the appointment of the ex spy chief Milani as head of the armed forces, the sale of 20% of Vaca Muerta to Chevron & the blue dollar again heading for 9 pesos even after the introduction of the Cedin, the RGs have more important things to worry about than some theorectical land claim 180 years ago!!!
15 Simon68 (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:29 pm Report abuse
Mr. Timerman, as usual, is twisting the truth to its limits: the original article published in Clarín was written by a CONICET researcher called VICENTE PALERMO who works with a grant from the kirchnerite mis-government!!!!!!

So it wasn't Clarín that was lying, if anyone was lying at all it was a person being paid by Timerman's own “government”!!!!!!
16 Be serious (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:31 pm Report abuse
Timerman is either a Stupid Bald Fud or a British Agent. Can't decide which. Of course if old Cristina were to have him executed, Argentina would win either way. Just a thought.
17 Baxter (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:48 pm Report abuse
Just one more stupid and pathetic attack on Clarin . Frankly I am surprised that they have not “ found ” a way to close it!
18 Conqueror (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 12:53 pm Report abuse
“A furious Timerman writes that Clarin readers don’t have to know since that newspaper deliberately hid the fact that the Foreign Office strategy of promoting a referendum in the Islands failed before the UN” Hilarious. I didn't know that the Foreign Office had a “strategy”. Actually, I doubt whether the Foreign Office knows what the word “strategy” means. “Strategy” implies an overarching plan. The Foreign Office doesn't have one of those. All it has are tactics. These are to give “foreigners” whatever they want in the hope that it will, somehow, be good for the UK. And just how did the Foreign Office have a “strategy” over something decided upon and organised by the Falkland Islands Government? Now, why didn't the UK government take the fact of the referendum and its results to the UN? Because it was an internal, domestic matter.

“When the world and multilateral organizations decided not to legitimize the Falklands referendum, they did so because the Argentine ‘word salad’ was more forceful than London’s arguments, now sponsored by Clarin claims Timerman.”

Did anybody from the Islands ask “the world and multilateral organizations” to “legitimise” the referendum? No. After the event, they simply went around telling people the truth.

“Clarin says that the UK is abandoning the C24, ‘false’ London can’t abandon C24 because it never belonged to it and at the same time recalls that 65% of all remnant colonial cases in the world belong to UK.”

Unfortunately for tinboy, the UK “abandoned” the C24 years ago. About when the UK recognised that certain “parties” were “packing” the committee as a means of attacking the UK.

Poor tinboy. It seems that he suffers from an incurable mental disease. It is characterised by bigger and bigger fantasies and babbling inanities. Or is it that he feels himself to be a “foreigner” and has to justify himself by being a bigger and more stupid fool than other argies?
19 GFace (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 01:34 pm Report abuse
He's more desperate here it seems than he was when he was faced with the terrifying sight of two elected leaders from the Islands he wants to colonize.

Elections and individual rights and a free contrarian press. Ah the monsters that leak under the Fascist's bed.
20 Benson (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 01:57 pm Report abuse
@ 16 “Timerman is either a Stupid Bald Fud”

Those wascally Bennies.
21 reality check (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 02:43 pm Report abuse
@6trench.

AWWW!!!!! JEFFREY!

Can not look at that mans photograph now, without hearing those words in my head.

Classic! 10/10.
22 ElaineB (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 02:44 pm Report abuse
Timerman is a mystery. He embarrasses his country constantly but remains in his job. That is the mystery.

I suspect he a) tells CFK what she wants to hear and flatters her ego, and b) knows where the bodies are buried.
23 MagnusMaster (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 02:56 pm Report abuse
@1 “All that is now required is the accidental fire at parliament buildings or some other excuse to become a single party state with a life long leader”

We already are a single party state, the only parties are merely for show, and with all these Peronists, we don´t need a life long leader.
24 yankeeboy (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 04:11 pm Report abuse
22. I think he really works for the CIA or MI5. Nobody could really be that stupid and keep their job.
25 Patagonico (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 04:15 pm Report abuse
It is all part of the same “policy” of this corrupt govt, they need all the time to find an enemy, the opposite media ( specially the Clarin newspaper), the farmers, even the supreme court, the people of the islands. Most of the demagogic leaders act like this, that's why it is not possible a constructive dialogue. Here the peronism is really making a ruin of the country:(
26 Mick23 (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 04:32 pm Report abuse
Timerman is a FOOKWIT!! Plain and simple.
27 Gordo1 (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 05:28 pm Report abuse
Timerman is a dreamer - what he says is what he ideally would like the situation to be. It is not and the sooner he realises that the better!
28 axel arg (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 06:03 pm Report abuse
DESPITE THE TIPICALL PATHETIC DOBLE STANDARD.
I must recognize that the article is excellent, because it tells most what timerman published in página12. However, what is really hypocrite is that every time that mercopress refers to clarin, it never says that the newspaper is one of the main detractors of kirchnerism, which usually distorts the facts, it just says that since 2008 c. f. k's government and clarin broke their good relation that both used to have, however mercopress never omits that página 12 is a pro government newspaper, which is true. In my opinion, despite this pathetic doble standard, i have always thought that mercopress is a serious website, if it's compared to clarin, la nación or perfil, which are shamefully corporate.
This is evident that mercopress doesn't have enough bravery in order to criticise the most powerful mediatic corporation of the country.
On the other hand, i have never expected that any of the hypocrites who usually publish their comments in this forum, criticise clarin's distortions either, it's obvious that their lack of intellectual honesty, and the histerical hate that many of those people feel for c. f. k., doesn't let them make a serious analysis about something so complicated like politic is, that's why they always criticise only the corruption cases that involve c. f. k's government, but none of them never says a word about all the injuctions that clarin could get in order to not to comply with the new broadcast law sanctioned in 2009, in the same way that they never criticise either the denounces for money laundering which involve the clarin group.
In relation to the question of the so called referendum, i just can say that opinions and mediatic operations will always be free, but facts will always be sacred. You can waste all the time you want in order to defend that referendum, however, accept it or not, it didn't change absolutly anything of the malvinas-fakland cause, as it was expectable, like it or not.
29 Redrow (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 06:34 pm Report abuse
Are Argentina's rights over the Falklands really “unquestionable”? I'd be interested to hear the ICJ's view on that.
30 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 06:37 pm Report abuse
@28 Axel Arg:

MercoPress's agenda is mostly about simply providing information - there isn't much detailed analysis unless they're re-publishing an article which is more analytical. Anyone genuinely interested in discovering more about the Clarin/injunction issue can easily find out more elsewhere.

As to your characterisation of the referendum, I think you're missing the point. Since military action is unrealistic for the foreseeable future, and Argentina has shown no initiative to take this to the ICJ what we are left with is politics and public relations. In that sense the referendum, I believe, was successful and neccessary.

Finally, in the face of intense, persistent, hostile rhetoric, as well as some decidedly mean-spirited ( and perverse, in my opinion ) economic actions the referendum, as an expression of the Islanders defiance, will and desire, was a triumph.
31 CaptainSilver (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 07:13 pm Report abuse
The referendum was a triumph...

It showed the world that the Islanders love their present relationship with Britain.

It stuck up two fingers to the Argentine invaders.

It told Argentineans that if they want to try to invade or rule the islands they have got a fight on their hands.

It demonstrated that the little guy also has rights which cannot be ignored.

Scared of testing sovereignty at the IJC , rejected by the islanders and with a failing economy, corrupt government and police force, RGland looks stuffed.
32 Anbar (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 07:14 pm Report abuse
“”“”You can waste all the time you want in order to defend that referendum, however, accept it or not, it didn't change absolutly anything of the malvinas-fakland cause“”“”

and yet, even now it has the malvinistas and CFKc ronies wetting their panties every time it is mentioned.

Indeed the Mavlos spend more time talking about it than the Islanders do.

Its a win-win for them...just like this latest rant from Timmerman.
33 screenname (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 07:18 pm Report abuse
28 axel arg: “In relation to the question of the so called referendum, i just can say that opinions and mediatic operations will always be free, but facts will always be sacred. You can waste all the time you want in order to defend that referendum, however, accept it or not, it didn't change absolutly anything of the malvinas-fakland cause, as it was expectable, like it or not.”

The referendum was aimed at measuring Falklander wishes with regards their political status. They wished to remain the same, therefore no change is a good thing.

Argentinean opinion is irrelevant (except for Argentineans that also hold Falklander nationality) in a referendum for Falklanders. That is a fact. Do you think that the opinion of Faroe Islanders would matter in a Scottish referendum?
34 Steve-33-uk (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 07:32 pm Report abuse
'Quick visit to Colombia and Cristina Fernández Santos -
Argentina's President Cristina Fernandez arrives today for the country on Thursday, a brief official visit to meet with his counterpart Juan Manuel Santos.
Cristina Fernandez is scheduled to arrive in Bogota at 10:00 pm and after landing will go to your hotel in the Colombian capital. Tomorrow, the president will be received by Santos with military honors in the Courtyard of the Palacio de Nariño and then the two leaders will hold a bilateral meeting, according to Caracol said.
After the meeting Santos and Fernandez offered a statement to the media. Argentina's president was recently in Colombia on the occasion of the Sixth Summit of the Americas held in April 2012 in Cartagena and in which one of the main discussions was the status of the Falkland Islands.
Buenos Aires claims sovereignty over the South Atlantic territory. The president also traveled to Bogotá in August. 2010 for the inauguration of Santos as the Chief Executive. The last bilateral meeting Santos and Cristina Fernandez was in August 2011 in Buenos Aires in which boosted bilateral relations.'
espanol.upi.com/Politica/2013/07/17/R%C3%A1pida-visita-de-Cristina-Fern%C3%A1ndez-a-Colombia-y-a-Santos/UPI-62491374079660/

'Gioia held more than 10 000 signatures of JP for the cause of the “People of Malvinas” - The governor met with members of the Peronist Youth. Matthias Sotomayor gave details San Juan time about meeting that was focused on celebrating the many firms that joined the cause of the “People of Malvinas”...'
www.tiempodesanjuan.com/notas/2013/7/16/gioja-celebro-firmas-causa-pueblo-malvinas-36125.asp
35 Joe Bloggs (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 07:53 pm Report abuse
Timmerman
You're fucking bonkers mate. Keep up the good work.

Clarin Editor
Thanks for the Clarin T-shirts, baseball caps and pens that you handed out back in March.

Chuckle chuckle
36 GFace (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
@34 Always with numbers that have no real meaning to the Falklands.

Here are some more numbers to put things in the proper perspective.

2013: 10,000+ Argentinians; ~3,000 Islanders.

1940: 69,838,000 Germans; 8,879,000 Dutch
1940: 69,838,000 Germans; 3,832,000 Danes.
1940: 69,838,000 Germans; 8,301,000 Belgians

Fascist. Never. Change.
37 Conqueror (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 09:07 pm Report abuse
@28 Oh, look, the shit appeared. Let me translate. “Gabble, gabble, stupid, witless, fart”. And this is a “teacher”?
38 Steve-33-uk (#) Jul 17th, 2013 - 10:07 pm Report abuse
@28 Axel Arg

As you are probably aware I read a lot of news articles from around the world on a daily basis, so trust me when I say the referendum and subsequent result made it into just about every countries news.

I think the RG media is giving you a distorted view of world opinion on this matter as there are bias FI related articles on a daily basis, many of which I share on this forum.

So as far as the world is concerned (with the exception of Argentina and ALBA axis countries) Argentinas whining is not news.
39 Mick23 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 12:08 am Report abuse
Does anyone remember the early 1990's when Argwntina was actully trying to get a leg up. Charlie Menem, not that he was great, at least brought them out of hyperinflation and they were making a go of it through those years. Unseen were all of the typical RG political scenarios of stealing, raping and pillaging as best one could and blame it on someone else. This led to the crisis of 2001 where there were 7 presidents of the course of so many weeks. Old Nestor tried his hand at saving the republic and then came the BEAST and her load of cronies. Look at what the country has descended too now. It should only be another year or so that things will have fallen right away and someone else might be given the chance to try to save something if there is anything left. You lot RG public better smarten up and fly right else all is lost and we are talking in a BIG way. Rhetoric and subversion won't cut it anymore! Times a wasting, better pull it out while you still can.
40 Islander1 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 03:13 am Report abuse
Alex 28 - As I wrote on another article- we Islanders are quite happy with the referendum- it achieved what we wanted to show the world in a free democratic and independently monitored way. We are quite calm and relaxed - its so funny that you Argentines scream that it was all irrelevant - then continue to rush around still jumping up and down still screaming that it was irrelevant - seems to me that as we are relaxed and pleased with the continual slow and steady progress we are making on the international political front - but by god Argentina is really worried and scared about it!
41 toooldtodieyoung (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 05:46 am Report abuse
“accused Buenos Aires daily Clarin of silencing, distorting, hiding and even lying about events in Argentina”

mmmm.................pot, kettle, black???

Oh, Hector, Hector, Hector!!! why must you continue to publicly embarrass yourself??? at least it wasn't at the UN this time............

5 Faz

Comedy genius!!!

Nuff respec!!
42 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 05:58 am Report abuse
@28

You are devoid of “intellectual honesty” and your adoration of CFK makes your “analysis” mediocre and hypocritical.

You claim the referendum “changed nothing”. Well, penis, that's because the islanders want the status quo to continue. If nothing changes, I.e. the islands remain a BOT, then the islanders get exactly what they voted for.

Had they voted for independence, Argentine rule, or full integration into the UK, then something would have changed. They voted for NO CHANGE.

You are so unutterably stupid, that you think when people vote for no change and nothing changes that is a failure.

What a penis....and you are a teacher...god help your students.
43 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 06:46 am Report abuse
@38 Steve-33-uk

I appreciate all these little 'news digests' you provide. MercoPress should provide you with a stipend!
44 Kilkenny man (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 07:27 am Report abuse
@43 completely agree well done @38
45 El capitano (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 01:13 pm Report abuse
Poor ol Hector....“Yawn”...Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..!!
46 Simon68 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 01:20 pm Report abuse
28 axel arg (#)
Jul 17th, 2013 - 06:03 pm

Axel, others have explained to you that the Falkland Islander's Referendum result desires NO CHANGE, but what they haven't explained to you is that the Referendum was organized by the Legislative Assembly in order to send a message to the corrupt C24 at the UN!!!!!!

You need to get it into your tiny brain that the C24 sees the Falkland Islands as an NSGT (Non Self Governing Territory), whereas the Islanders see themselves as a self governing BOT and wish to be taken off the corrupt C24 list. That is what the Referendum was about, it had absolutely nothing to do with us except as a sort of message to CFK to let her knoe that the Islanders still wanted absolutely nothing from us!!!!!!!!

I repeat, the Referendum was an event that had NOTHING TO DO WITH US!!!!!!!!!!!!
47 Brit Bob (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 03:00 pm Report abuse
Mr. Timerman,

is Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego a colonial issue?

Because it was post 1833??
48 raul2 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 04:56 pm Report abuse
Excellent statement Hector Timerman.

It highlights which are actually the media monopolies on Argentina as Clarin and La Nacion.
Both newspapers and their economic and media groups supported coups and state terrorism in Argentina silencing the struggle of human rights organizations in Argentina. Gatieri Margaret Thatcher supported the implementation of state terrorism before 1982. Both are complicit in the crime of genocide and crimes against humanity.

22 ElaineB
Timerman is a mystery. It shames his country constantly, but remains in his job. That's the mystery.

These totally wrong. Timerman does a great job. He, like all of us are proud to be Argentine and Latin American.
You are the mystery as you cheer on your comments on racism, colonialism and imperialism of the 21st century English.

28 axel arg

Axel excellent analysis.

For a long time since I read an excellent analysis discovered laying in hypocrisy and double standards of Mercopress and most English pundits in this forum, justifying the double standards and support to racism, colonialism and imperialism century English 21.

Woe to tell the truth as expressed Axel. Mercopress is in no way impartial. It is a propaganda organ of English colonialism and imperialism.

The referendum was a complete failure.
It was a reaction to intimidate Cristina Kirchner to exhibit on United Nations and let colonialism and imperialism discovered 21st century English.
As a result England and the islanders were more isolated and weakened against world opinion. Rather than weaken and isolate Argentina Argentina's position was strengthened by giving a position and a more solid basis to appeal to the global political community support for the principle of territorial integrity and discovered makes English colonialism. Unfortunately the world public opinion sees the island as accomplices of colonialism and imperialism in the 21st century English.

Mail: face1354@hotmail.com
49 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 05:05 pm Report abuse
@48 Raul2:

I'm disappointed in you Raul - you're slipping. You forgot to mention pirates.
50 Dany Berger (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 05:38 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
51 raul2 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 05:50 pm Report abuse
49 Heisenbergcontext

Raul'm disappointed in you - you are losing. You forgot to mention pirates.

Heisenbergcontext:
Strive to be free from racial prejudices and look at things according to the historical context and social processes.

It is betting on the dialogue and nonviolence to build a better world.

God help you.
52 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 06:00 pm Report abuse
@51 raul2:

Thanks for the advice, but I think being a pirate would be much more fun. Anyway, it's too late for me - I'm definitely going to hell.
53 Be serious (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 06:19 pm Report abuse
Raul2 is without doubt a First Class Fud. He probably shaves on the hour, every hour, just in case. What a Fud.
54 Zethee (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 06:29 pm Report abuse
28 axel arg:

It's cute that Axel believes anyone cares enough about Argentina to know which papers are pro and anti government and that we would care either way.

raul: If you think this man is actually good at his job then you must be at thick and embarrassing as he is. This guy makes your nation a bloody laughing stock on the world stage.

I still remember him giving the presentation to the UN where he claimed we had super secret radar bases on the islands.... That are actually public knowledge research posts used publicly by universities in the UK.

Or the super duper nuclear submarines that were in Argentinian waters with pictures given to him by >ARGENTINIAN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES< which later turned out to be goggled pictures of not only the wrong type of submarine that do not carry nuclear weapons. But the ship claimed to be in Argentina was sitting in the UK under going maintenance.

Or when he called and asked to meet our foreign secretary, made it some sort of public victory to Argentina, then when he found out we invited islanders refused to come, lmao. He looked like an idiot, he truly got owned there by Hague.

The guy is an utter embarrassment to politics.
55 Steve-33-uk (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
@43 @44
Thanks ;)

'The last Galician Falklands - Antonio Cordeiro became famous for voting against the Argentine were ilsas - It is the last Galician in Las Malvinas. Been there for 25 years taking care of the interests of the Cooperative of Shipowners. Antonio Cordeiro is Galician O Hío said islands not to return to the hands of the Argentines. Retired from a year ago, still not sure whether to return or stay there...'
www.farodevigo.es/portada-o-morrazo/2013/07/18/ultimo-gallego-malvinas/847328.html

'This happened in our region: The English christen the capital Port Stanley in the Falklands -
This day, the first governor of the Falklands designated by the United Kingdom, Lt. Richard Clement Moody, baptizes the capital of the archipelago as Port Stanley.
After the 1833 military occupation of the islands lived a period of scarcity of military and authorities. Until, in 1841, appointed Moody London and began the fitting of the town, to give the appearance of a stable settlement geopolitical projection towards the Southern Cone.
In 1839, a British merchant named GT Whittington had founded the Falkland Islands Commercial Fishery and Agricultural Association and began to put pressure on the British government to obtain operating permits on the islands. He presented a petition signed by hundreds of London merchants, which demanded that publicly discuss the economic future of the archipelago. The following year, he wrote to the colonial secretary, Lord Russell, proposing to his company as a pioneer of a possible colony...
www.eldiariodelfindelmundo.com/noticias/leer/49716/esto-paso-en-nuestra-region-los-ingleses-bautizan-port-stanley-a-la-capital-de-malvinas.html
56 Briton (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 07:01 pm Report abuse
Sadly what this indoctrinated fools Hector Timerman, fails to understand and accept is this-
It has nothing but nothing to do with Argentina, why or when the Falkland’s can have a referendum,

As a matter of fact, the Falkland islanders can have a referendum 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year if they so wished, it has nothing to do with argentina, full stop.

To be fair, we would not cry if argentina had a referendum to ask if they wished to remain argentina,
Then all voted NO, its not our problem or our business,

So mr Hector Timerman should stop wiggling his tongue and go away, silly twit..
.
57 axel arg (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 07:06 pm Report abuse
ANNBAR. SCREEN NAME. STEVE-U. K. SIMON68.
ISLANDER1. RAUL2. MONKEY MAGIC.
As i said in another comment, opinions, mediatic operations, distortions, will aways be free, however there is something which is much more important than anybody's opinion, i mean objetive facts.
Beyond the tipicall hypocresy of many of the people who often publish their opinions here, we all know that the so called referendum, organized by the government from islands, aimed to get enough support in the world's scenario in order to achieve that the u. n. stop considering the malvinas- falkland cause like a special case, and applies the right to self determination, as it did for other colonial situations. However, as it was expectable, it didn't happen .
On the other hand, i want to tell you all that in the mainland i have met many sepoys along my life, who know so little about this question, but who have always been pro british, that's why they would love to support your colonial caprice (self determination) for nothing.
I know that most you will always consider me like a poor idiot, anyway, i prefer being considered like an idiot one million times, but not like a despisable sepoy, because i don't betray my country.
RAUL: I agree partially on what you think, i don't know wether mercopress is a propaganda organ of english colonialism, but i think that despite some of it's hypocritical analysis, it's a good source, if it's compared to clarin, la nación and perfil.
58 Clyde15 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 07:37 pm Report abuse
#57
not like a despisable sepoy,
Is this a synonym for an Argentinian with sense ?
59 screenname (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 07:51 pm Report abuse
@57 axel arg: “aimed to get enough support in the world's scenario in order to achieve that the u. n. stop considering the malvinas- falkland cause like a special case, and applies the right to self determination”

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the C24 is not the UN. Bank Ki Moon has spoken on the rights of self determination, and the UN literature is there to be read. If you like facts, then read them and weep. Malvinistas can try and warp history, they can bleat about implanted populations, and moan about territorial integrity: all blown out of the water with a bit of reading.

The C24 say the Falklands is still a colony and will not be removed from their list? SHOCK!!!!!! Do you really think the Falklanders expected Argentina's C24 cronies to do their job?

On a propaganda level, the Falklanders cannot lose at the C24,: Pro Argentine speakers are so amateur that they often contradict each other, speak in a bullying tone, or insist on putting forward flaccid documents to the UN GA that highlight just how overboard their verbal tirades at the Falklanders are.
Meanwhile, the Falklanders just get on with their business.

Does being classed as a colony at the C24 really make much difference to them? No.

and you say, “Beyond the tipicall hypocresy of many of the people who often publish their opinions here”

The people who, without exception, apply double standards to there application of justice for Falklanders and other humans are the malvinistas. I am sorry to tell you that you are indeed an idiot.
60 Zethee (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 08:20 pm Report abuse
“we all know that the so called referendum, organized by the government from islands, aimed to get enough support in the world's scenario in order to achieve that the u. n. stop considering”

Well, no. Nobody believed this would turn the situation around. It was simply a democratic people taking a vote to tell the world what they democratically, as a people wanted with there future.

They don't have to care what you or the world thinks. BUT they have spoken and given there free word.

That is all it was meant to be.
61 HansNiesund (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 09:44 pm Report abuse
This, inter alia, is what the C24 is supposed to be doing :

”(c) To continue to examine the political, economic and social situation in the
Non-Self-Governing Territories, and to recommend, as appropriate, to the General Assembly the most suitable steps to be taken to enable the populations of those Territories to exercise their right to self-determination, including independence, in accordance with the relevant resolutions on decolonization, including resolutions on specific Territories;”

UN Resolution A/RES/67/134
www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/67/134

What the referendum has shown, apart from the logical absurdity and moral bankruptcy of the Arjuntine claim, is that the C24 is quite clearly not doing its job.

No wonder they're so pissed.
62 Islander1 (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 10:35 pm Report abuse
Axel, I know and understand that you at least try to look at the dispute with less blinkered eyes that some - but we did not at any time ask the UN to look at and take our referendum result into account - the issue has not arisen.
And by UN I do not mean the C24 - that organisation - as so many have pointed out - has long since lost its relevance as it does not debate the issues it was formally set to do - it consists of and has twisted everything around over the years into a selfcongratulating irrelvant talk-shop and is very discredited by the more serious and respectable areas of the UN.
Our Govt carried out the referewndum as you agree - but purely to show to the world in general what the true and accurate postion is of the people,s wishes.
We will see over the next few years what other nations do and what opinions they form - it will not happen overnight.
We are not under any pressure from anybody really.
Both Kirscheners have caused us some problems over the last 10 years - we have found solutions to them and carry on life - and as a result the Islands have effectively written Argentina off as irrelevant to our future - your current President and her late Husband are t0 blame for that, they have turned the clock and relations between us back 31 years to 1982 again - they are so clever ( sorry I should have said so stupid)!
63 Pete Bog (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 11:14 pm Report abuse
@28
“ and the histerical hate that many of those people feel for c. f. k., doesn't let them make a serious analysis about something”

She is an idiot, but I wouldn't say I hate her rather than laugh openly in the streets about her. The same with your fellow implanted European, Timmerman .

They have both done the best to ensure the chances of the Falkland Islanders becoming Argentine recede like Timmerman's hairline.

Though they might think she is an evil lying distortionist now, the Islanders will have reason to celebrate CFK's inept politics and will one day unveil an admiring statue to her in the future, as she tries her best to implode Argentina, and make her claim for the Falkland Islands even more unbelievably ridiculous.
64 screenname (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 11:46 pm Report abuse
@62 Islander1: “Both Kirscheners have caused us some problems over the last 10 years”

And what the malvinistas don't seem to realise is that all of those problems have not really been a huge issue. If Argentina had been applying real hardship upon the Falklanders, then it would be the Falklanders looking to go to the ICJ.

As things currently stand, it is clear that Argentina is not worth the bother of the ICJ to the Falklanders and Argentina knows it does not have a case . For all of Argentina's attempts at turning justice into a popularity contest they still don't have the Falklands and are no nearer getting them, and Lining up a load of Latin countries at the C24 to abuse the Falklands delegation just shows how weak they are.
65 A_Voice (#) Jul 18th, 2013 - 11:52 pm Report abuse
@62
So the c24 isn't a UN body appointed by the UN?
If the C24 was irrelevant why were your Govt waving your referendum at them?
Why was Summers begging the Yanks to recognise it?
So you didn't really think that playing the self-determination card would have an effect on the Sovereignty dispute ?
You are saying that the referendum was just a PR stunt with no real purpose whatsoever?
Why is it that most of the world see it differently……they see you as very nervous squatters, squatting on the wrong Island hoping that no one will notice that you only have a claim to the other half.......even more nervous with the oil theft looming.
I bet your Govt had to ask the UK for permission to have the referendum! Scotland did and that's a country!
Your puppet Govt doesn't do anything unless your Lords and Masters says it can……….self -determination ........you are having a larf!
The C24 was established to rid the world of colonialism and you voted for the status quo that has existed for 180 years........in other words for Colonialism!
The World is not easily fooled.
66 screenname (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 12:34 am Report abuse
@65 A_Voice: “The World is not easily fooled.”

Good.

That's Argentina knackered then.

People on here are not easily fooled either Thinko (except you very angry malvinistas).

Chuckle Chuckle
67 HansNiesund (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 06:22 am Report abuse
@65 A_Mouth

Let me help you a little here :

- Self-determination isn't the same thing as independence.
- Arjuntina's historical arguments aren't just unfounded, they are superseded by modern international law.
- For this reason, Arjuntina won't dare take its case to the main body of the UN any more than it dares takes it to the ICJ.
- Scotland isn't a BOT.
- The C24 was largely irrelevant to ridding the world of colonialism, the economic basis of imperialism was disappearing long before the C24 was established.
- In the case of the Falklands, the C24 is acting in a manner clearly and directly contrary to its mandate.
- The whole world *is* easily fooled. One way to do it is to get people to sign up to anodyne notions such as “peaceful solution”. “dialogue”, and “negotiation”, and then go round claiming this means the world supports Arjuntine sovereignity. But this only works because the World doesn't really care that Arjuntina's rapists and murderers were politely sent home from somebody else's islands two centuries ago., and sooner or later the World will get pissed off at being misrepresented in this manner.
68 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 08:20 am Report abuse
A-Hole

The UN appoints the C24 to look at decolonisation of non-self-governing territories.

NOWHERE in the C24 mandate is there scope to comment, act, or recommend on sovereignty disputes.

Jesus you are one thick cunt.
69 A_Voice (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 08:38 am Report abuse
@67
First of all who rattled your cage? I was directing my questions to an Islander and second……..what a weak and pathetic reply, not even answering the questions that I didn't ask you!

Always the same when you can't refute an argument…….the replies descend into……..Argentina has no case……they are murderers……take it to the ICJ…….the C24 is irrelevant blah de blah…….have I missed any?
The British case is weak……the Argentine is also weak…….self-determination will not make an iota of difference…….
This is not going to go away…….those people will never feel secure……Britain is unfairly leaving problems for future generations, negotiate while you still can!

You are all fools if you think the balance of power will always remain constant, favouring the UK, for the moment. You have had your day, you are not part of the developing world, you are a dinosaur, a relic, a living history of everything that was wrong with the world…….you should do the right thing and lay down and die, but you won't ......still grasping at the remnants of the colonial empire…..pathetic!

The nations, not so blest as thee,
Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful, from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak

Altogether now..................
70 screenname (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 10:03 am Report abuse
@69 Thinko descending into desperate scum mode: roll up, roll up and give us what we want because otherwise one day we will come and take it anyway...

Hans destroyed you Thinko...boo hoo!! All you can do is shout about how big and strong you might be one day.

I don't know if you are having problems with your homelife, but these meltdowns seem to be getting more frequent. You might want to see about getting some help (psychlogical that is, I don't mean towards organising an amphibious assault on Port Stanley).

No chuckles, really worried about you Thinko.
71 A_Voice (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 10:09 am Report abuse
@70
Again no refute........
Where did you say you were from again? Ahh........not the UK!........Wannabe!
72 Brit Bob (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 10:51 am Report abuse
@69 A-Voice

The UN C24 decolonization committee was relevant up until about 1970, by then the majority of countries that wanted self-determination had been granted self-determination. The C24 is now irrelevant. The job has been done. Argentina has misused the C24 to pursue its ridiculously weak sovereignty claims on the Falklands which are based solely on proximity. The islanders DO have the right to self-determination, a fundamental human right. This right was examined by the UN Fourth Committee in 2008 where the question was asked 'could the right to self determination be conditioned where there was a sovereignty dispute.' There was a vote and it was decided that 'self-determination was too fundamental a human right to have conditions placed upon it.'

The UK is signed up and can use the UN ICJ while Argentina is not. The only proper place to pursue a sovereignty claim is through the UN ICJ, just like Bolivia is doing with their access to the Pacific case.

Like I said, the islanders DO have the right to determine their own future. Any hope that Argentina had of wooing the islanders went down the pan in 1982.

We are not talking about 'the balance of power' and Argentina's ridiculous claims and diplomatic war against the UK. We are talking about the moral case - the islanders right to self-determination and the legal case, which in Argentina's case is ridiculously weak - just ask Hector Timerman - Argentina's been threatening to take legal action against UK and Falkland oil companies drilling in Falkland waters since February 2010 - no jurisdiction and nothing can be done outside of Argentina - another reason why Argentina cannot put together a 'sovereignty case.' Pity Nestor Kirchner voided that 1996 hydrocarbons deal with the UK back in 2007. Still, they say you get the politicians you deserve.
73 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 11:19 am Report abuse
It is sweet that A-hole doesn't think that the people of the falklands are “secure”...and they can never feel “secure”. bless...sounds like a not too veiled “threat”..hahahaha

The people of the Falklands are perfectly “secure”, they live peaceful and prosperous lives, about to be even more so.

The weak sovereignty claim is that of Agentina to Patagonia ripped genocidally from the indigenous peoples in 1880.

The sovereignty of the Falklands and their wish to remain a BOT is perfectly “secure”.

yet more drivel from A-Hole.
74 A_Voice (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 12:50 pm Report abuse
@68 &71
More gibbering from the aptly named puppet........where did you say you were from again?.......Wannabe!
Use your master the Organ Grinder instead of this puppet!
How stupid are you?
“The UN appoints the C24 to look at decolonisation of non-self-governing territories.”
So C24 is a UN body and is appointed by and reports to.........the UN, which is what I said @65
“NOWHERE in the C24 mandate is there scope to comment, act, or recommend on sovereignty disputes.”
NOWHERE in my post @65 did I say otherwise........having problems with reading English are we.........not English then?
I have never stated that the C24 was relevant, I posed the question.......why bother bleating to it and the Yanks waiving the referendum about like a demented idiot that has something to prove.
75 Simon68 (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 01:13 pm Report abuse
72 Brit Bob (#)
Jul 19th, 2013 - 10:51 am

No peronist government will ever take the Falkland Islands claim to the ICJ for arbitration because they need it too much as a smoke screen to blow in our eyes every time they fuck up the economy!!!!!!!!

No Argentine politician would take the claim to the ICJ because they are too scared of the peronist majority!!!!!!

This means that we are fated to live with this ridiculous situation en eternum while Argentina becomes poorer and poorer and the Islands become richer and richer!!!!!!!
76 screenname (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 03:06 pm Report abuse
Thinko is having a mare here.........................................I'd be 'THINK'ing marcos has hacked he account, if I didn't have such a low opinion of marcos.

Maybe El capitano and Heisenbergcontext can come and talk him down of the roof.

as for, “I posed the question.......why bother bleating to it and the Yanks waiving the referendum about like a demented idiot that has something to prove.” Snr Thinko............................................I've answered that question in the last couple of days (my opinion anyways)..................................was it on this thread or another article? I can't remember..........you take your mind off being so angry and find it for me, there's a dear.

hugs and kisses from Chubut
77 Clyde15 (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 03:34 pm Report abuse
A_Voice
Interjection to this subject.
I noted your disinterested reply a #131 on the subjects of English/Lallans being a Romance language and would proffer the following reply.
I looked at your Wikipedia entry before my reply to Miss D.B.
However, I believe the standard reference book on the subject of the English language is:-
“Bradleys-the making of the English language. This was required reading for the Scottish Higher Leaving Certificate in English and guess what, I got an excellent pass mark.
Again unlike your wondrous memory that never fails, I checked my copy to make sure I was right....I was.

The current meaning of the West refers to a geopolitical group of countries who have roughly the same ideals. W.Europe,USA,
Canada, Australia and N.Zealand. Argentina does not figure in this group.
It is aligned with the other S.American countries such as Bolivia, Venezuela and Peru. It cannot be in both camps.
Yes Argentina had links with the”west” in the past but has all but broken these.
78 raul2 (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 03:46 pm Report abuse
57 axel arg

RAUL: I agree with part of what you think, do not know wether MercoPress is a propaganda organ of English colonialism, but I think despite some of its analysis hypocritical, is a good source, compared with Clarin, La Nacion and Profile.

I'm in doubt that. MercoPress cancel my identity on the board (Raul) and I changed for another (raul2), to defend the Argentine and Latin American rights over the Falkland Islands. Furthermore tolerate all kinds of insults and offenses towards whatever is Argentine and Latin American. Nevertheless, ay something good. I have done teaching and contacted British and surprisingly Islanders are willing to abandon the British colonialism and build on the dialogue and non-violence.

I know most always consider me as a poor idiot, anyway, I'd rather be seen as an idiot a million times, but not as a Sepoy despisable, because I did not betray my country.

No way you're an idiot. You are a brave. Most on this forum, (English) does not always have the analytical skills you have. In your comments there is a strong analytical skills to distinguish the historical contexts in which events occur and the social processes that are carried out, to interpret or judge the conflict in full development, and distinguish what is important and what is not important.
Be proud of yourself and welcome to this fight you are not alone. Your comments make teaching and teaching those who are not deceived and manipulated by the media means that persist in maintaining Anglo racism, colonialism and imperialism of any kind, sign or ideology. Remember these words of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

“There is no way to peace, peace is the way.”

“Forgiveness is the value of the brave. Only he who is strong enough to forgive an offense, can love. ”

“I would suffer all the humiliation, all the torture, absolute ostracism and even death, to prevent violence”

“Your true increase as you know hear the truth of others”

Mail: face1354@hotmail.com
79 Pete Bog (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 03:49 pm Report abuse
@65
“If the C24 was irrelevant why were your Govt waving your referendum at them?”

To remind the C24 that their function is to decolonise. By having a referendum the Islanders prove that they have been de-colonised.

The C24's remit is not to recolonize a former colony with a would be Imperialist power like Argentina, therefore the islanders are entitled to remind the C24 what their role is.

@69
“those people will never feel secure”
They have since 1982.

They don't like Argentina's bullying but they continue to function despite it.

For a society that has previously had to battle hardships with living conditions , few resources and isolation, the Argentine bullying is inconvenient but just another problem to be side stepped.
The Islanders have had this bred into them by virtue of the location they have been born on.

Therefore the Argentines present policy will not weaken the Islanders belief or resolve, it actually strengthens it.
80 axel arg (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 04:28 pm Report abuse
WHY DOESN'T ARGENTINA TAKE THE CASE TO THE I.C.J.?.
For being honest, i must recognize that this is one of the few interesting questions that i found in some of the comments from the people who often answer my analysis.
I have discussed about this idea in different moments, but unfortutelly in just a few oportunities i could have relevant debates, due to the hypocresy and the lack of intellectual honesty. characteristic of some people who usually publish their opinions here.
As i always say, it's obvious ansd expectable that both parts of the conflict tell just what is convenient for them, in relation to the historic and the legal aspects of this conflict, every time they defend their postures before the u. n., or before the rest of the int. scenario, for this reason i have always said that we all must investigate deeply about it.
As far as i'm concerned, i have investigated a lot for the last 3 years, that's why i have enough knowledge in order to say that the case has strong and weak aspects for both countries, although some people in this forum reject it, arguing too partial analysis.
Respecting the proposals of arbitration, in 1884 and in 1888 argentina suggested taking the case to the arbitration,which was rejected by the u. k. In 1947 that country manifested arg. that it would be disposed to discuss about the cases of the dependencies from the islands before the i. c. j., but the malvinas-falklands hadn't been included in that proposal. After 1947, none of the two nations proposed again to take the question to the arbitration. In my opinion i think it would be interesting to debate honestly about why neather arg., nor the u. k. decide to give that step.
Beside, it's necesary to say that fine diplomacy takes a lot of time, that's why it was obvious that the referendum wasn't going to change anything of this cause in a short term of time. Actually only strategies carried on along the years, will judge which policies could win the case.
Raul2: Thank you.
81 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 04:28 pm Report abuse
Jesus, A-Voice is thick!!

The C24 SHOULD be relevant to the Falkland Islanders referendum, which voiced their clear wishes to remain a British Overseas Territory, a position they share with all the other British Overseas Territories.

Absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with Argentina, or any sovereignty dispute.

Your response was to the claim that on the subject of the sovereignty dispute the C24 was “not the UN”, and the views of any or all of the members of the C24 are neither relevant nor the position of the UN GA or the UN ICJ nor the UN SC, all three bodies far more relevant than the C24 with respect to a sovereignty dispute.

You said, in this context that the C24 was a UN body appointed by the UN....so in the context you said it, it was asinine, inept, stupid and retarded....like virtually everything else you have to say.

In the context of showing the C24 the referendum as evidence of the with to remain a BOT, it is as relevant as any of the other BOTs doing the same, and indeed any of the other so-called NSGTS.

Pity you are so stupid you can't see the difference.

However your hilarious rant about Britain being in decline and a relic of the Empire days...that made me laugh a lot. Fifty years out of date for that kind of propaganda Harold, nobody buys it anymore.

Poor A-Hole, makes himself look like a racist retard yet again...probably cos he is one.
82 A_Voice (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 04:39 pm Report abuse
@81
I know in your own mind you think you are trying to make a point but all that is coming out so confused drivel.....try again......or better still don't bother
Have a lie down the sun is getting to you.
83 raul2 (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 05:02 pm Report abuse
81 Monkeymagic

Too bad it's so stupid that you can not see the difference.

Pathetic and pitiful.
You keep insulting and not show any serious or credible argument.

The C24 should be relevant to the referendum Falkland Islanders, who expressed his clear desire to remain a British overseas territory, a position he shared with the other British overseas territories.

Argentina suffered four British invasions (1806-1807-1833-1845)
Remember that the specificity of the Malvinas Question is that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina. Is ruled out then the possibility of applying the principle of self-determination, as its exercise by the islanders, cause the “disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity” of Argentina. In this regard it should be noted that Resolution 1514 (XV) “Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples” states in paragraph six that “Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter ”.
84 screenname (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 06:10 pm Report abuse
@80 axel arg: “due to the hypocresy”

I getting the impression that you don't know what the word hypocrisy means. It is not just some 'buzz word' that you can throw in a sentence.

@83 raul2: ”Argentina suffered four British invasions (1806-1807-1833-1845)
Remember that the specificity of the Malvinas Question is that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina. Is ruled out then the possibility of applying the principle of self-determination, as its exercise by the islanders, cause the “disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity” of Argentina. In this regard it should be noted that Resolution 1514 (XV) “Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples” states in paragraph six that “Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter ”.”

Admit it, you are a Falklander trying to make the malvinistas look stupid....

no invasions, not 4 -- 2 Spanish outpost attacks, a military eviction, a blockage
no population expulsion
no territorial integrity for Argentina - you can only go back as far as the founding of the UN (so in fact Argentina is in breach of the UN charter by interfering in the internal affairs of the UK and a BOT).

And by the way the saltwater rule applies to the Falklands no matter if the UK or Argentina were the colonial power, so...tough titty for the glorious fatherland.

Read it and weep

untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/dicc/dicc.html

I like the, ”There is nothing in the language or the spirit of resolution 1514 (XV) inhibiting its legal extension to situations involving relations between European colonial Powers and other European or European-derived peoples overseas.”

Self determination for Falklanders...you better believe it.
85 A_Voice (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 07:54 pm Report abuse
@77
My comment was lacking lustre because I know the English language is Germanic due to the construction and grammar and differs from a latin base like Spanish, Italian or French even, but if you combine all the latin based words in the English language they far out-number the Anglo-Saxon words.......but word borrowing doesn't change what it is..........Enjoying the weather? Another scorcher today, picnics by the shore!

Now where was I, oh' yes......come back Monkey I haven't finished with you yet......or you Poppy........and Troy.....I was only kidding!
86 screenname (#) Jul 19th, 2013 - 08:07 pm Report abuse
@85 A_Voice:

I'm glad to see that there is a distinctly happier tone to your latest post. When the red mist descends you do yourself a disservice.

Perhaps El capitano and Heisenbergcontext can pop along for you to slap around a bit?
87 Pete Bog (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 12:19 am Report abuse
@83

”Argentina suffered four British invasions (1806-1807-1833-1845)“

That's a bit difficult as the Argentine republic was formed in 1853.

In 1806/1807. the UK was attacking Spain not Argentina.

In 1833 the UK did not invade it asserted a claim it had since 1690.

”Remember that the specificity of the Malvinas Question is that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return”

They did not use force, they asked the UPotFP to leave by letter.
The UP force was superior in numbers but stupidly used British born mercenaries who refused to challenge their own people-not a clever move by Pinedo.

The original settlers (the military force had only been in the islands for 3 months), were not expelled, and some of Vernet's people returned after January 1833 from South America, so the UK did not stop their return.

From 1833-1834 you ignore the fact that there was no British military present so the UPs could have returned at anytime over that year, but chose not to.

As long as you repeat your inaccurate brainwashed mantra, I will correct it.
88 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 08:20 am Report abuse
@85

“you haven't finished with me” LOL

I have continually made you look like a complete cock, and destroyed your pathetic, racist, factually incorrect excuse for arguments....however, if you think that is finishing with me...lol, you a bigger twat than I took you for.

Please explain again how, in the context of sovereignty disputes, the C24 is “the UN” and “appointed by the UN”

LOL, whatacock.
89 Clyde15 (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 10:15 am Report abuse
#85
I think we can bury this one for good.
All I did in my reply to Ms. DB was to refute:-
1) That the WHOLE of the British Isles was a province of
Rome
2) That the English language and similar offshoots were Germanic and not Romance languages,
She decided to change the subject from the original posts-
I kept trying to answer her original posts but as usual, it was a run-around trying to change the subject. I am well aware as to the contribution of a Latin vocabulary in English due to the RC Church and law.
90 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 12:08 pm Report abuse
Raul

Before you post your cut and paste bullshine again, do yourself a favour.

-Go to the Argentine National Archives
-look up the names of the people who arrived on the SS Sarandi in November 1832
-look up the names of those who left on January 6th 1833.
-what do you see.

It is 90% the same list of people. Mestevier is missing from the return journey as he was murdered by your mutinous crew.

So, your “original population” argument is crap. Don't take my word for it, read it in your own National Archives.

Your territorial integrity argument is also crap.

Look at the maps of what constituted the United Provinces of Rio Plata in 1832.

Bits of Brazil, bits f Bolivia, bits of Uruguay, Paraguay, but not Patagonia. The Falklands were 1000 miles away, hardly “integral”. The boundaries of “Argentina” have changed dramatically since then, and Patagonia was added due to your genocidal march through the desert.

Britain could equally claim (but wouldn't be so stupid), that the UP violated its territorial integrity in November 1832.

So far from not wishing to debate, unlike you, I have looked at the ACTUAL historical data.

No population was expelled
No territorial integrity was violated.

P.s. the UN General Assembly (not the C24) voted relatively recently that in the case of Non-self governing territories, sovereignty disputes DID NOT remove the fundamental right to self determination.

So there you go Raul, just like A-hole you are full of shit, easily disproved by actual historical facts.
91 Mr Ed (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 03:27 pm Report abuse
I thouhgt that von Ribbentrop has been put in his box, but his spirit lives in in the search for Lebensraum and ethnic cleansing.
92 Briton (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 05:50 pm Report abuse
There are many reasons why Argentina should go to the I.C.J.
But there is only one reason why they won’t-
Because they will lose,

Mind you, you would have thought that with the whole world backing them,
Well most,, well south America, perhaps just tinman, but with all this support, one would have expected argentina to be camping outside the damm court night and day.

But alas no matter how much fabricated support one feels they have,
The truth, in court still eludes them,
And no amount of excuses can hide the basic fact, that they would lose,

They know it , we know it,

Still,
You could always prove us wrong and take us there,
Or just carry on throwing shit to the wind..
.
93 ChrisR (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 06:57 pm Report abuse
92 Briton

I think that the “throwing shit to the wind” has it then!

LOLs
94 axel arg (#) Jul 20th, 2013 - 09:38 pm Report abuse
I wish somebody answered my comment 80, so i can have an interesting debate with some people.
95 screenname (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 12:21 am Report abuse
Why does Westminister not take the Falklands dispute to the ICJ?

IMO because they recognise the Falklands belong to the Falklanders. They may have advised the Falklanders behind closed doors one way or the other, but no more.

Why do the Falklanders not take the Falklands dispute to the ICJ?

IMO...They are in ownership, as much as they may believe their case is airtight, why would they risk the chance of getting someone like Marcelo Kohen? Unless Argentina became something more than a minor irritant, they have no reason to go to the ICJ.

Why does Argentina not take the Falklands dispute to the ICJ?

The pro-Islander viewpoint on this has been addressed multiple times, and since axel arg has a very different view on the 'facts' it is pointless debating it with him again and again and again. When viewed alongside Argentina's love of rolling up to the C24 for a tirade of latam speeches against the Falklanders, IMO the Argentine government is well aware of its almost zero chances of winning a court case and is therefore attempting to steal the islands via a popularity contest.
96 HansNiesund (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 02:17 am Report abuse
@94

The question you asked was “why doesn't Argentina take its case to the. ICJ?” and then you attempted to answer this by saying, “well the UK doesn't take it's case to he ICJ either.”

Srtu, but that's not an answer. Or at least it's the kind of answer which mothers usually teach their toddlers is wrong by about the age of three. But this kind of twisted logic does seem to be endemic in Malvinista circles, presumably because application of the normal, everyday kind of logic would mean there weren't any Malvinista circles in the first place.

But that's by the by.

The main reason that he UK doesn't take the case to the ICJ is that the UK is happy, more or less, with the situation as it is, give or take some minor Argentinian irritations on about the same level as athelet's foot.

The much more interesting question is why Argentina, as the plaintiff desirous of overturning the status quo, pursues every course of action imaginable except those that might just give it what it claims it wants.

You still haven't answered that one.
97 Clyde15 (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 10:53 am Report abuse
Are Clarin and MercoPress actually UK sponsored mouthpieces ?.
Interesting concept.!
98 Pete Bog (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 11:16 am Report abuse
@80 Axel

“due to the hypocresy and the lack of intellectual honesty”

This is of course in your opinion, and who are you to accuse others of intellectual dishonesty?

Do you hold a doctorate?

There are many Malvanistas who practise 'the lack of intellectual honestyie' over 1833.

Most Argentine proclaimations on 1833 are ANY THING BUT INTELLECTUALLY HONEST, because they
do.
not.
reference.
records.

For instance the Argentines ignore that there was a British claim on the Falklands from 1690 (landing without settlement , the same as the Argentines claims concerning Jewitt), and a claim from 1765 based on initial settlement.

Argentina argues that a settlement of only eight years constitutes an invalid claim, yet their alleged settlement (not totally comprising of UP citizens-there were also USA, German, French and British citizens) of no more than 7 or 8 years takes priority.

HOW??????????????

If Britain had NO previous claim on the Islands, had charged in guns blazing and had really ejected all the civilian settlers pre 1833, I would think the Argentine claims held legitimacy.

Argentines STILL do not understand that 1833 left the MAJORITY of the civilian settlers in place from South America, yet never, ever question, why did those settlers, from South America accept British sovereignty?????????????

This demonstrates that it is the Argentines who display intellectual dishonesty, as even their records clearly show that the British did dispute the sending of the military force in October 1832, and records clearly show that Vernet sought permission for the British to settle the islands, it was not purely a South American venture.

It is intellectually dishonest to suggest that the United Provinces of the River Plate inherited the Spanish claim to the Falklands when the Spanish themselves did not surrender their claim to the Falkland Islands until the 1860s when they staged a diplomatic visit to the Falkland Islands and saluted the Union Jack
99 ChrisR (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 02:28 pm Report abuse
The deluded argies KNOW that their actions in 1982 CLOSED their chances with any court including the ICJ and whilst they pretend their facts have relevance: they DO NOT.

It really is as simple as that.
100 Briton (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
94
I wish somebody answered my comment 80, so i can have an interesting debate
,,,,,,,,,,
because you never listen,
no one wants to tell...
101 MagnusMaster (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 07:06 pm Report abuse
@97 “Are Clarin and MercoPress actually UK sponsored mouthpieces ?.”

Clarin not, about MercoPress I wouldn't be sure, they're from Uruguay so they can support who they want.
102 axel arg (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 08:30 pm Report abuse
SCREENNAME. HANSNIESUND. PETEBOG.
BRITON.
Although i dont agree on most you said in your comments, i praise the fact that unless you expressed your opinions without insulting, like many other people in this forum usually do.
Briton says that i never, so no one wants to tell. I would like to tell you all that if i decided to investigate, is because i have never believed in our mendacious official history, written by the most conservative and reactionary sectors of our society. Beside, if i wouldn't have enough intellectual honesty, then i never recognized that the case has strong and weak aspects for both parts of the conflict. The fact i don't have the same opinions expressed by most you, it doesn't mean that i never listen.
Respecting the proposals of arbitration, if it soposes that only arg. should decide to take the case to the arbitration, then we all must wonder, why did the u. k. reject twice in 1884 and in 1888 the proposals of arbitration, and why did it manifest arg. that the u. k. would be disposed to discuss about the cases of the dependencies from the islands before the i. c. j?. It shows that the decision about taking the case to the i. c. j., is not something that only arg. should propose.
Respecting the historic aspects, i think that in some way both countries had rights over the islands in 1833. In my next comment, i am going to explain more about it, because it's too long.
On the other hand, while it is true that arg.'s claim weren't continuous for some periods, it would be honest to take into account the great economic dependency that our country had with the british empire for more than 100 years, so it was obvious that arg. wasn't in conditions for claiming for it's rights over the islands. Beside, don't forget that in 1968, 1974, and in 1980 the u. k. tried to find a negotiated solution for the sovereignty. For all thse reasons, i have always thought that the case has strong and weak aspects for both nations.
103 lsolde (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 09:48 pm Report abuse
@102 Axel,
Too many maybes & could-have-beens in your arguments.
Argentina lost any goodwill it had with us, when it invaded OUR land in 1982.
One part of your statement is blatantly untrue.
Argentina has NEVER had any “rights” in the Falkland islands.
And now it is far, far too late for any meaningful “dialogue” with Argentina.
There is absolutely nothing to negotiate.
We own these lslands & Argentina DOES NOT.
But try to have a nice day, anyway, Axel.
104 screenname (#) Jul 21st, 2013 - 10:04 pm Report abuse
@102 axel arg: “Beside, don't forget that in 1968, 1974, and in 1980 the u. k. tried to find a negotiated solution for the sovereignty.”

By “negotiated solution” what we really mean is the UK tried to dump the Falklanders without any sort of consultative mandate. That doesn't make the UK case strong or weak… It is just a demonstration of the sort of attitude the UK establishment had up until the 1980s (and to a certain extent still manifests itself in the actions of certain government employees*) towards the opinion of the public. What does make the UK claim strong is the continued support of its position by the Falklanders.

* www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-initial-response-to-the-mid-staffs-report
105 Anglotino (#) Jul 22nd, 2013 - 03:28 am Report abuse
@104 screenname

This is why I say that no one has done more to create a Falkland Islander identity and to foster a sense of future independence than ARGENTINA.

If Argentina had played its cards differently, the Islanders probably would have become part of Argentina and been a sleepy English speaking back corner in the republic.

However Argentina had to shoot its wad back in 1982 and since then the only way is up for the Falkland Islands.

That's why I want Cristina to have another term as president. No one does more for the Falkland Islands than she does. Other than her and Timerman, no other politician ON THIS PLANET bolsters the Falkland Islands and gives them such high exposure.

Before 1982 it was highly possible that the Islands could become part of Argentina.

Since 1982 it is impossible. Honestly I have never heard a single logical argument nor scenario that sees the Islands become part of Argentina.

So poor Axel Arg and other are still kicking themselves over missed opportunities in 1968, 1974, and in 1980.

But mostly they just can't get past that 1982 was the end of their ability to ever gain the islands.

All this talk about the ICJ is a waste of time. The ICJ will never award the Islands to Argentina because the ICJ would have to take into account the people that live there.

Just as the ICJ isn't going to award Panama to Colombia or New Zealand to Australia just because historically they were once a single country. They're not going to award Belize to Guatemala or most of Guyana to Venezuela because of historical claims whether real or not. They are not going to shift Poland eastward to undo something that happened much more recently than 1833.

The ICJ will never adjudicate on Argentina's 1940s manufactured claim because there is no point of law to adjudicate on.

No one other that the Falkland Islanders will ever decide whether their country will leave the UK.

I truly wish that some Malvinista would rebut these claims. But alas they can't!
106 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 22nd, 2013 - 12:20 pm Report abuse
Axel

You hurl abuse and then whinge that others do the same. That is hypocrisy. If you dont like abuse, stop throwing it yourself with your ludicrous self-righteous, bullshine.

IT IS YOUR OPINION that there are strong and weak elements to both sides of the argument. THIS IS NOT FACT.

IT IS MY OPINION that the Argentine argument is FUNDAMENTALLY WEAK and the BRITISH POSITION of supporting the ISLANDERS is FUNDAMENTALLY STRONG. So you pretending your position has “intellectual honesty” doesnt wash with me.

These are OPINIONS.

The HISTORICAL FACTS are open to interpretation.

Fact: The only people “evicted” in January 1833 arrived for the first time in November 1832. Fewer than 10 others CHOSE to leave with them, at least one returned later.

Compare this FACT with RAULs claims. Compare with Timmermans claims...

However, it is by the by.

The evictees who'd been there less than 2 months are gone. Long since dead. Their horrendously weak claims died with them.

Compare that to the Patagonians who had their land stolen from them in 1880. Land that had belonged to them for millenia not two months...they still endure your colonial jackboot. There is your hypocrisy. However, the world knows that it would be unfair for the current day Argentines in Patagonia to be removed from the land they ACTUALLY STOLE and self-determination of the whole population of Patagonia is the only way.

Argentina wishes for this debate because they only see a gain from their current position. I think a pre-cursor to the debate should be a fairer outcome.

The UN should decide the cases of the Falklands and Patagonia together.

-Was the land stolen by military force in the 19th century
-Was an existing population evicted/massacred
-Does that historic population still “suffer”

In the case of the Falklands my view is No, No and No for Patagonia it is Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Until Argentina resolve the MASSIVE HYPOCRISY of this position and give freedom to patagonia there is nothing to arbitrate
107 screenname (#) Jul 22nd, 2013 - 02:15 pm Report abuse
@105 Anglotino: “If Argentina had played its cards differently”

But it would seem that they can't. Their inability to act on impulse without any regard for the people affected by their actions has happened so often that I don't think it is bigoted to say it is a national trait.

@105 Anglotino: “the Islanders probably would have become part of Argentina and been a sleepy English speaking back corner in the republic.”

Even as a democracy, Argentina can't resist good old fascist uniformity: the recent article on Spanish neutral media demonstrates that.

@105 Anglotino: “No one other that the Falkland Islanders will ever decide whether their country will leave the UK.”

I hope that the Falklanders are the only people to have the final say on the destiny. The only thing is, that when I see people in UN positions not acting for the UN, but instead acting I their own national interests, I can't help but not be 100% convinced of ICJ victory. That said, for all the hot air spoken at the C24 the language is toned down in the documents that make their way to the GA.
108 Briton (#) Jul 22nd, 2013 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
102 axel arg
94
I wish somebody answered my comment, so i can have an interesting debate

I don’t know abt a debate,, but you should thank me, as you now had had a few more replies …
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The past is gone,
The future is made today,
And if you believe in anything today, it should be the rights of free people to choose who governs them
And who they choose to associate with, and who they wish to remain.

The free people of the Falkland’s, have this day in the 21st century , chosen to remain British,
And possible independence in the future at a time of their choosing,

Now surely no sane person could argue with or disagree with that statement without a view that they themselves are entitled to nothing ..
Mm just an opinion…
.
109 screenname (#) Jul 22nd, 2013 - 11:01 pm Report abuse
In my post @107 screenname I wrote, “Their inability to act on impulse... ” when I meant, “Their inability to NOT act on impulse... ”
110 GFace (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 01:23 am Report abuse
I will say this about Axel, while he is as completely wrong as the rest of the Malvanistas on the Falklands, he is the most earnest (and maybe the least noxious) in getting across the so easily demonstrably false narrative on which he was raised and (apparently) now must teach to a new generation.
111 The Truth PaTroll (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 04:51 am Report abuse
Patagonia has had plenty of chances to secede from Argentina. They never have. They even had a vote once, I think the 1960s, none voted to leave. So there is self-determination all over Argentina.

The problem is you people on this board are so wacked out from hatred and bigotry you can't see things clearly and thus the only “fair” outcome to self-determination within Argentina is one where people choose to leave. You simply cannot accept Argentina has no secessionist movements because from Ushuaia to La Quiaca, everyone wants to remain Argentine.

In fact, the Magallanes region of Chile, Tarija region in Bolivia, and parts of southern Paraguay have in the recent past raised the possibility of joining Argentina.
112 Anglotino (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 06:18 am Report abuse
And yet the Falkland Islanders have emphatically said they don't wish to be Argentine.

Wish the Argentine government and people listened.
113 Brit Bob (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 08:59 am Report abuse
Timerman and co can huff and puff all they want this impresses no one but the weak minded and those gullible enough to believe the propaganda.

The UN Fourth Committee met in 2008, after prolonged discussions on whether this fundamental right to 'self-determination' could be conditioned where there was a sovereignty dispute, voted and by a majority, decided that any sovereignty dispute COULD NOT CONDITION THIS RIGHT AS THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION was too fundamental a human right to have conditions placed upon it.

In 2010 Ban Ki-Moon reinforced this when he said, 'The World's 16 remaining territories that still do not govern themselves MUST have complete freedom in deciding their own future,' Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon told a forum on decolonization.

So when Timerman and Kirchner say 'they have no rights' any sane person will know that they are just spinning 'the Great Malvinas lie.'

Still, they say you get the politicians that you deserve.
114 Clyde15 (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 09:32 am Report abuse
#111
To be fair, the hatred and bigotry come from both sides equally.
Look at many of your own posts as examples.
115 Monkeymagic (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 09:35 am Report abuse
@111

But the vote in Patagonia included the “implanted” Argentine population who usurped the territoty in the 1880's in a blatant act of 19th century colonialism. Clearly, that is just Argentines voting to remain Argentine.

The true vote would only be the remanants of the Amerindians that weren't massacred, plus of course the assumed vote of the tens of thousands who were slaughtered. Clearly usurping implants have no right to self-determination.

All the above, as you have guessed it sarcastic...but is not even slightly as ridiculous as the “Malvinista” argument, where the “rights” of 50 or so people who'd been on the disputed islands for 2 months in 1832 are deemed more important than 180 years of population and the thousands that live there today.

Interestingly, Argentina doesnt carry there logic into their home affairs and remove the right to self determination of its own implanted population.
116 RICO (#) Jul 23rd, 2013 - 12:31 pm Report abuse
OMG, Clarin prints a view that is not in alignment with the Kirchernite propaganda, how will they cope - oh the foreign minister will have a nervouse breakdown.
117 axel arg (#) Jul 25th, 2013 - 03:55 pm Report abuse
SCREENNAME. MONKEYMAGIC. BRITON. ISOLDE.
ANGLOTINO. GFACE.
Although i respect your analysis, i don't agree on most you think.
It's necesary that we all understand that if we want to discuss seriously about the historic and the legal aspects of this conflict, we can't buy so easily the official histories of our countries, because it's obvious that both nations will always tell just what is convenient for them, in fact, we can see it every time that politic leaders from arg. and the u. k. defend the postures of their countries before the u. n., or before any other international scenario.
On the other hand, it is often compared in this forum, our claim for the islands, with the extermination of our originary populations in 1880, during the occupation of patagonia, leaded by a criminal and son of a bitch like julio roca, who has always been a politician extremelly admired by our mendacious and reactionary official history. Some people usually make this comparison, in order to argue that our claim for the islands is hypocritical.
Many people here know that i have never denied or omitted the extermination of our originary brothers, however, despite that genocide, our legislation doesn't exclude their rights and claims, in fact, article 17th of chapter fourth of our constitution refers to the rights and claims of our originary populations. Anyway, it's honest to recognize that there is still a lot to do for them, because a few populations are often expealed from their lands, by powerful masters who pretend to plant soya.
In the case of our claim for the islands, the u. k. excludes arg. asking for the application of self determination, in a cause which has always been considered like a special colonial situation by the u. n. If you investigate deeply some day about int. public right, as i did, you'll know that not always int. jurisprudence applies self det. for absolutly all the people, under any circunstance.
118 screenname (#) Jul 25th, 2013 - 10:02 pm Report abuse
@111 The Truth PaTroll:

See post 115

@115 Monkeymagic:

you wrote pretty much what I thought when I saw post 111. How The Truth PaTroll can be serious when writing that stuff is just bizarre.

@117 axel arg: “It's necesary that we all understand that if we want to discuss seriously about the historic and the legal aspects of this conflict, we can't buy so easily the official histories of our countries, because it's obvious that both nations will always tell just what is convenient for them, in fact, we can see it every time that politic leaders from arg. and the u. k. defend the postures of their countries before the u. n., or before any other international scenario.”

If you think statements from political leaders of the UK has a positive effect on support for the Falklanders you are mistaken. Many rabid anti thatcherites in the UK take a position on the Falklands which is not based on any sort of justice, but purely on their dislike of Thatcher with no thought of the rights of islanders. I have a very low opinion of David Cameron, and his opinion on ANY given subject has (at best) no effect on mine.

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