MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
UK ambassador to EU steps down criticizing preparations for Brexit negotiations
UK's ambassador to the European Union urged British colleagues in Brussels to challenge “muddled thinking and... speak truth to power” as he quit ahead of Brexit talks, according to the BBC. Writing to staff, Sir Ivan Rogers said ministers needed to hear “unvarnished” and “uncomfortable” views from Europe. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesBloke was totally incompetent and didn't have the good grace to go quietly with his buddy Cameron. Should be stripped of his honour and made to live in Belgium for the rest his miserable life.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0Englander,
Jan 04th, 2017 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse -7You are f---cked. Feel any good?
The UK will now finally see what is like when you actually have to sit down and negotiate (not like Iraq, where you just illegally invaded and killed and maimed).
“serious multilateral negotiating experience is in short supply in Whitehall”
Captain Obvious to the rescue! When has the UK government ever been civilized enough to sit down and negotiate with anyone? Is it a shock they have no clue and not expert diplomats?
On the other side, you have the MASTERS of negotiation. The EU by it's essence (26 nations with huge historical and cultural differences), has to be a master of the art of negotiation and diplomacy.
This will be like watching a horse jockey fighting a sumo wrestler. It will be tragic but oh so funny...
Or as a particularly nasty punishment maybe he could live in Argentina.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its essential to remove all the Quislings from the FO and to ensure that any EU loving fifth columnists arent involved in the leaving process. Great that he has been dedected and removed.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 12:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So now even the government won't listen to the experts? Wonderful. Every time I start to feel even slightly optimistic about Brexit, I'm reminded that it's being run by Brexiters, the people who don't believe in experts, think anyone who disagrees with them is incompetent or a traitor, and accuse those telling the truths they don't want to hear of engaging in 'project fear'.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -5Apparently they won't be happy until all the people with any kind of competence and practical experience have quit or been forced out and replaced by true believers. Do they think that if you want something to be true hard enough, then it is?
If the 'expert' has clearly demonstrated that he is unwilling to execute the will of the people and the government he should go. As for competent negotiators who believe in what they are doing, they are the people we need. Don't try to tell us that such people don't exist in Britain because they do. Look a the 'deal' this Ambassador got for Cameron, it clearly didnt give Britain what people wanted, he was useless.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +1We will make the best of Brexit in the short term and get back to running our own country and controlling our own borders under our own democratic parliament whatever the fifth column do. Britain is now more determined than ever to get out according to recent polls.
Not only was he incompetent (i.e. not an expert at all) but he has now chosen to undermine the Government and the Country in his stroppy, long winded resignation letter.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 01:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -1People say “ah but he knew the EU people who will negotiate with the UK Government”.
Exactly....and they knew him.
In any event nothing is going to happen until such times as the Courts decide.
@DemonTree: Are you Scottish? Or has the troll got you by the nose?
Jan 04th, 2017 - 01:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +2For a start, as an ambassador, Sir Ivan would be a member of the Diplomatic Service. As a civil servant, he would have signed the Official Secrets Act. As would his staff. Did they forget that it's a lifetime commitment. Because of one's position, one has access to information not available to unauthorised persons. Signing the Act is a declaration that one will not act in such a way that such information comes into the position of the unauthorised. Of course, we cannot know, as yet, whether it was Sir Ivan or a member of his staff that 'leaked' his farewell message. But the message contains a lot of information that he had no need to mention.
But it does bear out what I have said for years. The Foreign & Commonwealth Office is not really on Britain's side. No matter what overall government policy might be, or what the British people are likely to think, the FCO formulates its own 'policies'. And puts them into practice. Time after time. Perhaps it's because its personnel have too much contact with representatives of other countries.From years ago, where did the Spanish get the idea that Britain would happily hand over Gibraltar? Where did the argies get the idea that Britain would hand over the Falkland Islands? The answer is the same in both cases. The FCO. From my own personal experience, I found a couple of staff from a foreign embassy undertaking an illegal action. Not all embassy staff have diplomatic privilege and these two didn't. In any case, even foreign embassies are required to comply with British law. Eventually, the embassy contacted the FCO that stuck its nose in. “Let them do what they want” said the FCO. It's always represented as being what the FCO thinks is in Britain's interest. Many situations are 'inconvenient' for the FCO. And so it tries to make them go away.
How would you know whether Sir Ivan Rogers was competent? And the British people have chosen the country's course
“Look a the 'deal' this Ambassador got for Cameron”
Jan 04th, 2017 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -7And that is when the EU was still nice to you :)
All those ex-trainers for the England team are also useless huh, they didn't get England back to the World Cup Final...
Or maybe they, just like with the ambassador, they are asked to do things that are impossible under the laws of Physics, which English love to claim they pioneered with Newton. But it also seems you along with the USA are the first ones to have forgotten them! both countries increasingly anti-science, anti-education, anti-experts. What they asked of this ambassador was to have the EU, an economy bigger than the USA, totally cave in to the demands of a has-been with delusions of 1899 all over again, in exchange for the UK giving nothing. When he failed to do miracles, just like with the football team, he is pilloried.
Maybe, just maybe, the problem is huge swath of the British populace has significantly erroneous perception of what their real power and influence is these days. Hint: it's not 1899.
This will be fun to watch come March... You're doomed. :)
Nostrils, you never told us why you have renamed yourself after a British Oil and Grease company?
Jan 04th, 2017 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What makes you think he was incompetent? His long and successful career in the civil service? The fact he was given one of the top jobs with no complaints until now?
Jan 04th, 2017 - 02:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3I seem to remember Brexiters saying before the referendum that Cameron's inability to get a good deal from the EU was proof we should quit, since we would never be able to get meaningful reforms. If the problem was just that we sent a crap negotiator, why are we bothering to leave when we can just get someone else to do the job better and the EU will give us whatever we ask for?
And how has he demonstrated that he is 'unwilling to execute the will of the people'? By telling the government the truth as he saw it, which they didn't want to hear? Or by resigning when he felt he could no longer do his job effectively because that same government was unwilling to listen to him?
As for competent negotiators, I think he probably knows a bit more about that than you do. Britain hasn't negotiated a trade deal since before I was born. Most of our experienced negotiators actually work for the EU currently, and I'm sure they'll be delighted to come and work for a country that not only just wrecked their careers, but will accuse them of being fifth columnists and fire them if they don't toe the ideological line.
We're not going to get back to happily running our own country with our own democratic parliament until people like you stop calling those who disagree with you traitors and liars, and the papers stop calling our judges 'enemies of the people' and stop trying to stifle debate by attacking anyone who says what they don't want to hear.
@Conqueror
I imagine the Spanish got the idea that Britain would hand over Gibraltar when Blair's government agreed to do just that. It was only the referendum in Gib that made them abandon the plan as far as I know.
@DT
Jan 04th, 2017 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“No complaints” because UK was aligned with EU generally, if not in all policies.
He just allowed the status quo to persist, the murky world of EU 'compromise'.
Conq,
The Scottish comments are damaging, not helpful.
That divisiveness is exactly what Thinkvoice works hard to promote.
Told ya..the anti-Scots need no encouragement...;-)))
Jan 04th, 2017 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What else have I been saying is true.......EVERYTHING.!!!....
@Troy Tempest
Jan 04th, 2017 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“the murky world of EU 'compromise'”
Isn't compromise the normal outcome of negotiations?
Are we now planning to refuse any compromise with the EU, during this government's not-murky-at-all negotiations that they are currently fighting a court battle to keep secret from their own MPs and the public?
We would do a whole lot better in our country if we stop the divisive talk of 'them and us' over Brexit. The country voted, all but a few malcontents accepted the result and the majority want the best for our future. It is the Brexiteers that seem to be causing the most grief with their paranoia and complaining, even though they got the majority vote. It could easily take ten years for this process to be completed. It is not going to be easy. We do not hold the wining cards. We all want what is best for the country. This constant whining every time someone says something realistic about our situation is not going to expedite the process.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 04:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Everyone has their red lines. AFAIK Britains are:
Jan 04th, 2017 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Control of our own borders
Make our own laws as we see fit
Human rights that work for everyone that don't put criminals rights above their victims
All the rest is up for negotiation.
The paranoia is caused by 'few malcontent' Remoaners who fail to accept the will of the majority - like Wonder Woman and the serial failure Clegg.
In addition it will be a good thing for Britain to concentrate on Exports again which will mitigate the continuing bleeding away of Britains wealth.
@ The Voice
Jan 04th, 2017 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Why is it always the Brexiters that are claiming there is a conspiracy? The very small number of malcontents on the Remain side are outvoted so have no power. How can they stop the will of the majority? They can't.
I'm luuuuuving it...
Jan 04th, 2017 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Hope the 27 kick the Engrish as hard as they can...
Just my honest wishes for Country occupying part of my Country...
@ElaineB
Jan 04th, 2017 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I agree, but I think certain sections of the press have a lot to do with it; they pushed for Brexit and have continued to whip up paranoia afterwards. It would be interesting to know which newspapers/websites the Brexit supporters here read.
@The Voice
If it's that simple, then why are the government making such a fuss about keeping their plans secret?
How do you think Sturgeon or Clegg are going to stop Brexit anyway? Neither of them is in charge. And Sturgeon has accepted the will of the only majority she actually cares about; this could be a golden opportunity for her.
I agree it would be good to concentrate more on exports although I don't know what was stopping us doing it before, considering we had free access to the single biggest market in the world.
@Think
And you wonder why I think you hate Britain...
We have already seen obstruction to Brexit in the courts. Wonder Woman wants to obstruct it for her own agenda, there could be more legal grief from her. Clegg is in some organisation dedicated to stopping things. Expect the same thing from him. It's all a distraction. Clegg like Ivan is like a stock of rock with EU running through it.
Jan 04th, 2017 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1After Brexit we will still have access to the European market. Our goods may be more expensive but so might theirs.
We have a new guy now who is not so wrapped up in the EU flag and apparently does what he is told. Great stuff.
@ DT
Jan 04th, 2017 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I would guess No1 is The Daily Mail (though not the Mail on Sunday). Papers give readers what they want to read and they give a feast of negativity, sensationalism and conspiracy. “Give them a hate a day to keep them happy” said the founder.
You are, of course, right. The newspapers totally controlled the referendum voters and there has to be considerable blame on the part of the government for not putting enough information in the public domain. You could easily argue that the government took the tabloid approach to the issue and thought that whipping up fear would win, given the papers are so successful at it. But they totally miscalculated. What should have happened was reasoned information from both sides. The result might have been the same but the lasting division and mistrust less likely. When you look at how close the result was and that almost 30% didn't vote because they didn't understand (according to analysis afterwards) you can see how little real information reached people.
When you read the impatient Brexiters posting here, most seem to have a very simplistic idea that it is like writing a letter of resignation to a club and picking up one's coat on the way out. This is more like the most complicated divorce settlement ever to be negotiated. Even when the terms are agreed we will still be entwined financially like a couple with joint custody of young children. It will be years before all financial ties will be severed and many years before new relationships can be established to everyone's benefit.
I see the new EU Ambassador has already been appointed. No dragging heels for the tabloids to whine about.
Geeeee..., Engrishman...
Jan 04th, 2017 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -2I have repeatedly said in here that I don't hate Britain...
As a matter of fact I'm particulary fond of it's northernmost people and countryside...
Not to mention me faithful Engrish Rudge bycicle and me near lifelong affaire with Alnwick's Hardy Bros. tackle... (gone Keiryu-Tenkara recently..., though)
I just dislike the United Kingdom's agressive Colonial pretentions over some 12,000,000 square kilometers South Atlantic and Antarctic territory...
Territories that happen to be claimed and adjacent to my Country...
@The Voice
Jan 04th, 2017 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After Brexit we will have the same access for goods as any random country, ie with tariffs, and whatever bureaucratic difficulties they think they can get away with. For services (37% of UK exports to the EU) who knows if we will have access at all.
“We have a new guy now who is not so wrapped up in the EU flag and apparently does what he is told.”
Someone who won't challenge ill-founded arguments and muddled thinking, and won't try to speak the truth to those in power, then?
@ElaineB
Judging from links on here, the Express may actually be the biggest cheerleader for Brexit. Every negative piece of news is spun as part of 'project fear', in order to discredit it in the eyes of their readers.
Of course newspapers don't actually control voters, but they do control to a large extent what those voters believe. I agree the government campaign was dreadful; I really hoped they'd learned from the dismal Scottish referendum campaign, but it was obvious right away that the only thing they learned was to do the same thing but harder. There was a total lack of clear, unbiased information, which made it hard for anyone to make a sensible decision.
@Think
“I have repeatedly said in here that I don't hate Britain”
How comforting. You don't actually hate us, you just wish us serious harm.
And you only have a problem with the UK's 'aggressive colonial pretensions' because they interfere with Argentina's 'aggressive colonial pretensions' over those same territories.
The difference is Argentina is not a hypocrite. It doesn't say on the one hand “because of self-determination we hold on to territory, to protect the citizens”, and in the same breath claim another territory on the other side of the world (for the UK), which has no connection whatsoever with the UK, where none of their citizens have ever lived or been born, and this in the 21st century 80 years after WWII... And then insist they are not colonialists!
Jan 05th, 2017 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse -2It's too much hypocrisy in too small a space. Thus our particularly virulent stance.
@FC
Jan 05th, 2017 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse +2Yes it is. Argentina says that a non-native population is not worthy of self determination while being a country founded and mostly populated by immigrants. I doubt there is any country in the world that is so consistent and so immune to self interest that it cannot be accused of hypocrisy over something.
@The Voice
I've now read about our new EU ambassador, and he sounds like a decent choice, not someone who'll be too scared or sycophantic to tell the government the truth.
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