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Montevideo, June 27th 2017 - 05:07 UTC

Argentina purchased several refurbished Mirages and engines for Pucaras

Friday, May 19th 2017 - 06:42 UTC
Full article 31 comments

Argentine reportedly has agreed to purchase several refurbishedDassault-Breguet Super Étendard fighter bombers originally from the French navy. Apparently the Mirages are similar to those Argentine used during the Falklands conflict in 1982 and will be incorporated to the Air Force, as part of an Argentine re-equipment of its military forces. Read full article

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  • Idlehands

    They should've asked the UK. We could've given them a fantastic deal on some Sopwith Camels.

    May 19th, 2017 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • mollymauk

    Another muddled mixed up report from Mercopress.
    Super Etendards and Mirages are completely different aircraft (- same manufacturer but that's about all).
    The Kfir however, IS a version of the Mirage, built by the Israelis.

    May 19th, 2017 - 11:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Airfix shares have just taken a massive hit!

    May 19th, 2017 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Lucdeluc

    The French are masters at flogging junk.

    May 19th, 2017 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Pete Bog

    “Minister Martinez also acknowledged that the United States has offered to sell Argentina F-16 fighter fighters but the Mirage would better fulfill the needs of the country.
    “The operating cost of the F-16 makes them almost prohibitively expensive,” he said.”

    Exactly what type of Mirage?

    If it is a Mirage 2000, which even the Brazilians have phased out, it would still face a tough battle with an F16.

    If as this article suggests the Mirages are similar to the 3s Argentina had in 1982, then no way are they a match for F16s.

    Or do Mercopress, who describe a Super Etendard as a Mirage (wot???) mean that Super Etendards, now virtually obsolete are being purchased.

    Whatever the case I am glad that Argentina take the defence of their country seriously, without posing a threat to the Falkland Islands.

    Cue the Daily Mail et al telling us again that because the QE carrier isn't ready to sail down, that an invasion and takeover of the Falkland Islands is imminent.............................

    May 19th, 2017 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    “Argentine [sic] reportedly has agreed to purchase several [insert name of imaginary purchase item].....” is the sort of thing that we see every few months, followed by quiet and unannounced abandonment of the efforts.

    Argentine governments routinely announce “we're gonna buy all this armament” to appease certain of its frothing mad constituents, even though the proposed purchases rarely seem to have any substance, and are generally focused on the acquisition of technologically antiquarian items that more properly belong in museums.

    Let's review the announcement again, at least how it appeared in La Nación on 17 May: “La administración de Mauricio Macri evalúa la compra de aviones cazabombarderos a Francia. El Ministerio de Defensa recibió un ofrecimiento del gobierno galo para adquirir seis aeronaves Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard. ”

    Ergo, the Macri government “will consider... an offer....” That is not quite the same as “Argentina purchased....” I am not quite certain which of the two is the more skilled in deliberate misrepresentation: the writers for Mercopiss, or the herd of capricious clowns that comprise the Argentine governments.

    May 19th, 2017 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Capt Rockhopper

    They are simply trying to ensure that they can keep some pilots fast jet qualified and get their ageing Pucara fleet flying again.

    May 20th, 2017 - 04:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jo Bloggs

    Excuse the hyperbole but isn't this the 1000th time we've read about Argentine purchases of military equipment? Only to later read that no deal went ahead?

    May 21st, 2017 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Correct... Mr. Jo Bloggs...
    And “curiously”..., 999 of the times you read about it..., in here..., at PeguinPress..
    Engrish brainwash..., anyone...?

    May 21st, 2017 - 12:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jo Bloggs

    We only write the stuff people send us, Think. We don't make it up.

    Honest.

    ;-)

    May 21st, 2017 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    The reason that we read about this being the 1000th time an argie government fails to live up to its hyped procurement plans is that Mercopiss largely copies (and often badly translates) the rubbish that appears in the argie press.

    Of course, the abysmal condition of the Argentine armed forces due to Kirchnerism is not limited to its total lack of meaningful fighter aircraft, but also its inability to perform basic reliable cargo missions. As the local media here noted “....los anuncios espectaculares del gobierno nacional...” are reflections of the lack of sincerity in aircraft procurement which the present government now shares with the previous governments (although “lack of sincerity” might well be coupled with “lack of seriousness,” “lack of competence,” and “lack of integrity” to characterise the general governance of this country). When I returned to Río Gallegos recently via the local airport, there was a non-operational C130 Hercules at the adjacent military facility. According to the air crew at the civilian terminal, the plane is deadlined for lack of repair parts. It was supposed to be carrying out missions for supply of its squatter base in British Antartica, and carrying foreign “scientific” personnel which Argentina contracts for propaganda purposes. Now at least some of those personnel are trying to get transportation to the chileno air base on King George Island, using chileno Hercules aircraft. The effects of Kirchnerist Peronismo not only failed to make the trains run on time, but served to keep its ancient aircraft bereft of maintenance, and grounded.

    May 21st, 2017 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. Jo Bloggs...

    You should be more picky when publishing “stuff people send you”..., then...

    Anyhow... THIS story makes some sense...

    I believe our Armed Farces have somewhere eleven (11) Super Etendards (with very few flight hours) mothballed since the late eighties...

    Getting some of the newly outphased French Super Etendard Modernisés and recycle all their good stuff on our nearly new airframes... wouldn't be a stupid idea...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault-Breguet_Super_Étendard

    It's only a question of price...
    If the Frogs give us a good price for removing all that junk from their beautiful Country... we could have a deal...
    I Think about a ton of bloc de foie gras and 25 crates of Armagnac per airframe would be fair...

    May 21st, 2017 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    ”I believe our Armed Farces have somewhere eleven (11) Super Etendards (with very few flight hours) mothballed since the late eighties...”

    The delusion continues.

    There are zero capable Super Étendards in Argentina. The remaining airframes in the country are worn-out rubbish suitable only for static display. And any modernisation of the proposed (junk) aircraft from France would be severely limited “export” versions since technology control agreements are in place between the UK and France. Like the two dozen or so spectacular announcements from argie governments about rearming, this one is likely just another bread-and-circus show for the legions of Argentina's epileptic armchair warriors.

    May 21st, 2017 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Geeeeeeeeee.....

    It looks as if the Frogs are really interested of getting rid of their SEM5's...!

    Their are planting the story of this undone deal everywhere...
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-fighter-plane-terrorized-great-britain-during-the-20762?page=show

    Maybe we Argies should imcrease our asking price with 100 crates of Veuve Clicquot per plane ;-)))

    May 21st, 2017 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jo Bloggs

    Geeeee

    One minute Penguin Press is just making this stuff up and the next minute, it's making the news everywhere.

    Which is it?

    This is how it will go from here:
    Argentina will get the full price and most likely won't be able to afford it; then
    if the can afford it, and if there is any UK element in the equipment, the U.K. Will block the sale.

    That's been the pattern 999 times before.

    May 21st, 2017 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Geeeeee...

    There is something you are missing..., Jo...
    Those SEM5's have the same marked value as an auld, mutton killing border collie...
    As it happens..., the only Country in the world that could have some use for them is Argentina...

    The French should pay us for removing that trash from Europe...!

    May 21st, 2017 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Capt Rockhopper

    The build program for the IA63 was scuppered because Kirchner decreed that no UK components could be used and that would be no problem because only minor components were actually british. Her definition of minor components included such things as, ejection seats, engine fuel management systems and avionics. We did scuppered their purchase of the Gripens from Brazil for good reason. Why would we sell modern military components to a self declared enemy.

    May 22nd, 2017 - 03:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @Marti Llazo

    “France would be severely limited “export” versions since technology control agreements are in place between the UK and France”? FALSE statement. There is no such “agreement” and France would sell Argentina what ever Argentina is willing to pay.

    Buying the retired “SEM” would be a good option to both parties. France will get rid of retired material and Argentina will get the electronic components that are “almost” NATO standards (they were in service until year 2016).

    Not a single LATAM country (with the exceptionla case of Venezuela) has now flying material “2016 up-graded”.

    It would be quite usefull for argentine pilots to get trainning and Argentina will get modern material quite cheap.

    May 22nd, 2017 - 03:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    pgerman, you're lost again. Argentina has attempted for several years to obtain French assistance in making their junk Etendards flyable. Most recently, in 2009 and again in 2014, Argentina attempted to get reconditioned French engines, hydraulics, and other components to get those old airframes back into the air. On those occasions, as on others, the Argentine efforts came to naught. There is clear evidence that the UK (and to some degree the US) persuaded France to avoid any such sales to Argentina. The reconditioned French engines alone, in theory, could have been supplied, but Argentina was unwilling to pay what the French were asking. But other components, particularly newer avionics, contained UK/US technology that was subject to re-export controls and agreements, and France was obligated to respect such binding restrictions. The result was that not one of the trashed Etendards currently in Argentina could be brought back on line, for any price. And the 2017 talks are headed in the same direction. And Argentina is still unable to get anything but third-tier “export” avionics technology.

    May 22nd, 2017 - 06:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @Marti Llazo

    For your expression (“you're lost again”) you seem to be like “Think”....

    France offered Argentina several times to upgrade the SUE into SEM but the previous government refused to accept any deal for political and economic reasons. France even offered the current government the construction (even with technology transference) of some “light” nay vessels.

    There are no any material restrictions from Germany, France, Italy, Israel, Spain. I'm sorry you are missinformed.

    May 22nd, 2017 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Think

    You're lost again..., Argie Turnip...

    May 22nd, 2017 - 07:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Marti Llazo

    The proof is in the pudding. Or the lack of it. Argentina is still demonstrably unable to obtain those truly modern upgrades. The nations that contractually receive restricted US and UK aviation technology -- and that includes Israel and France, among others -- are obligated to honour the constraints on re-export. In spite of the enormous amount of noise and wishful thinking in Argentina, it is still and will be for some time yet unwelcome and thus unable to get anything but third-rate junk in the military aviation sector. Unless it goes to the Russians or Chinese, in which case it will be confronted with insanely expensive second-rate junk. Think that is going to change? Send us a postcard when Argentina gets a modern, capable fighter.

    May 22nd, 2017 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @ Marti Llazo

    None a single LATAM country (with the exception of Venezuela with its Sukhoi) has modern capable figthers. Brazil has Mirages 2000 and Chile operates F-16 (2nd hand ones) that are not “modern capable fighters” at all. They are all almost retired “museum material”.

    Argentina could get Rafale if it has the will and, mainly, the money. The questions is: What for?.

    In addition, you might like or not. You may ignore reallity (as Think usually does) but the French Government has offered an SUE full up-grade service several times (at leat two times) during the last government. So, most probably, they are offering Argentina a “deal” again. Whether the argentine government will accept it or not is no clear now.

    Having the SUE upgraded to SEM might give the Argentine Navy the chance to operates “OTAN year 2016” planes (at a reasonable price) quite usefull to start a moderate modernization of its capability. No other LATAM country operates “OTAN year 2016” right now.

    In addition, no matter that the UK don't sell defense material to Argentina the German/Argentine Meko ships have british Rolls Roice engines. All of them were delivered to Germany and to Argentina after the war.

    In additon, again, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Israel, Austria offered Argentina defense material several times in the last years. These countries can manufacture quite modern and usefull defense material.

    May 23rd, 2017 - 02:47 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    pgerman, you're not reading the words, and you're maintaining the usual argentine delusions. Remember that we are discussing the consistently demonstrated inability of Argentina to obtain modern, capable FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. Your mention of engines in ships is a rather bald non sequitur.

    Your mention of countries that “offered Argentina [unspecified] defense material several times in the last years” is as meaningless as saying that Italy has twice offered air-rifles to Argentina, because neither have anything to do with Argentina's consistently demonstrated inability to acquire modern, capable fighter aircraft. What was mentioned earlier was that the UK, working jointly with the US, has tremendous influence in preventing Argentina's acquisition of modern, capable, Western fighter technology. Remember when Argentina was crowing about being able to get some two dozen Swedish Gripen fighters through a deal with Brazil? The US and UK blew that deal out of the water, because the modern, capable technology in that aircraft, even though it was “Swedish” - was controlled by the UK, however unpleasant that may be. Similar UK influence also prevented Argentina from acquiring other modern, capable fighter aircraft and components. There is a good reason why Argentina has no air force today, and being on the UK's shit-list is a large part of that.

    Your idea that those worn-out, junk Super Étendards are somehow going to provide Argentina with the top French technology of 2016 is simply laughable. The avionics in those planes are over 20 years old, and even then, it's likely that many of the elements of that version would not be allowed to be transferred to Argentina any time soon. The best that Argentina can hope for in this Super Etendard deal is that the worn-out airframes with a stripped-down avionics configuration might last long enough to let a few argentine pilots get some cockpit hours before the maintenance costs exceed the budget allocations once again.

    May 23rd, 2017 - 03:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    Marti Llazo

    It might be because of my English. It might be because of your English. I don't know, but I believe I have been quite clear.

    Argentina, as the rest of LATAM, has a budget issue that ban the purchasing of state of the art fighting planes. In addition, none of the countries of the region has this kind of material. So, it is no needed at all.

    It is quite clear that the UK, in association with USA, worked to mantain Argentina unarmed. But the World is not USA and the UK. The Swedish Grippen fighters option is being considered in long term since Brazil is delayed in this program. The idea is to get brazilian manufactured Grippen so all of us will have to wait lots of years.

    Anyway, French material, such as the Rafale, is the perfect option based on the
    links between Argentina and France in defense. But each of this planes costs EUR 100/120 millions so getyting them is not an option at all.

    SUE upgrading to SEM (the offer is to adquire the planes that France is retiring now as they has been opperation) is the best and good option. The idea is to canibalize the french SEM and put all the components (that are the very same in use in the Rafale) in the argentine SUE (that have little usage). So, taking into account the LATAM standard is not a bad option at all.

    Any way, you, in the FI, can sleep without any inconvenience since a war, or an isolated incident, is not an option at all. Wars between democratic countries is not an option in the current century.

    May 23rd, 2017 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Marti Llazo

    The capacity for delusion in Argentina continues to astonish.

    Argentina isn't getting any fully capable Gripens, for reasons that were explained previously, but evidently not understood. Para superar los problemas de comprensión lectora, here is a summary from Reuters concerning why Argentina isn't going to get any fully capable Gripens. From a 2015 article:

    “Sweden's Saab AB on Monday ruled out facilitating the sale of Gripen fighter aircraft to Argentina as the result of a deal to build and export combat jets from Brazil. Argentina has expressed interest in buying 24 Gripen fighter jets from its Latin American neighbour once Brazil is able to export them, early next decade. Such a deal would face an almost certain veto from Britain, which provides some 30 percent of the Gripen's content, including the radar on its next-generation Gripen E/F.”

    Others have wildly speculated that the UK may not eventually block eventual Gripen acquisition by Argentina, but for the foreseeable future, the Gripen version in play is affected by a technology ban in place in the UK since 2012. It should also be noted that the Gripen engines are also subject to additional UK/US controls since the majority of the critical components are built in the US.

    The practice of buying discarded European junk is a well established Argentine practice. During the Kirchner years it was Spanish railroad junk. During the Macri years it might be obsolete French airplane junk. But junk is junk.

    May 23rd, 2017 - 01:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    The Super Etandard is NOT a fighter. It's correct current designation is a TARGET !

    May 24th, 2017 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Lowland Gorilla just above...

    Them frenchies a “TARGET” huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...?
    Ya mean a “TARGET” like the whole Engrish Aeroespace Industry after BREXIT...?
    https://www.ft.com/content/77e6e934-c571-11e6-8f29-9445cac8966f


    Back to Sopwiths and Supermarines...
    Chuckle..., chuckle...

    May 25th, 2017 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Clyde15

    The arsehole has spoken ....again

    May 25th, 2017 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Lowland Gorilla just above...
    I don't like the Financial Times either... but...
    Calling them a**eholes for reporting the facts is a bit over the top...

    Don't you Think...?

    May 25th, 2017 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    Suggesting that the FT has anything to do with “the facts” is a bit of a stretch.

    May 25th, 2017 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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