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Montevideo, November 21st 2017 - 15:45 UTC

Gendarmerie report says Nisman was beaten and drugged by two attackers who then staged his suicide

Wednesday, November 8th 2017 - 07:10 UTC
Full article 72 comments

A new report summarizing the findings of an Argentina police probe into the mysterious death of Alberto Nisman, who accused Argentina's government of covering up Iranian involvement in the bombing of a Jewish community center in 1994, has determined that the prosecutor was murdered. Read full article

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  • British_Kirchnerist

    So the purge continues. Funny how many anti-K “independent judicial” rulings since Macri's “blank cheque” election. And btw what are the border police doing running an autopsy? And no mention here of the room being locked from the inside. Personally I think its quite likely he was killed, not by Cristina but by her enemies - after all, cui bono?

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 08:28 am - Link - Report abuse -7
  • golfcronie

    God, first names with that EVIL bitch CFK. Obviously the federal police were ordered to say “ suicide ” by the EVIL bitch. Seriously do we in the western world believe what happens in these third world countries, they are always economical with the truth. How long has it been since he died? years and no definitive answer. Typical South American shenanigans.

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 11:14 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • British_Kirchnerist

    Why do you think she is an “EVIL bitch”, the evidence from her eyes to her proven actions suggests the opposite

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Marti Llazo

    “...drugged by two attackers who then staged his suicide...”

    The apex of human rights progress in CFK's Argentina.

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 01:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • British_Kirchnerist

    More like the modus operandi of her enemies

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 03:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • golfcronie

    Who had most to lose if he had lived? Typical Argentina no one knows anything dumb twats.
    Have you seen the evil eyes of CFK evil bitch.

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    “Nisman was [murdered] after filing a report accusing Argentine President Cristina Kirchner...”

    BK: “Personally I think its quite likely he was killed, not by Cristina but by her enemies”

    So if he'd testified against CFK wouldn't that have helped CFK's enemies? So why would they want to kill him? Occam's razor says your theory makes too many unreasonable claims to be probable. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one: He was going to testify against CFK and she wanted to stop him doing that.

    So, if you want to make an extraordinary claim beyond the simplest explanation you will need extraordinary evidence. Have you got that? No. So you are proposing a conspiracy theory based on wishful thinking.

    Lets me turn it around so you may get a sense of how ridiculous you sound:

    A: Personally I think its quite likely Maldonado was killed, not by Macri but by his enemies.

    B: He was a non-swimmer who drowned.

    A: More like the modus operandi of his enemies.

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • imoyaro

    “Gendarmerie report says Nisman was beaten and drugged by two attackers who then staged his suicide”

    Sounds like they are finally closing in on Kamerad/Komrade Rique and Gauchito Drink after almost 2 years on the lam!

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Enrique Massot

    With the backing of this latest, highly problematic autopsy, president Macri has already issued his personal verdict: Nisman was assassinated.

    Of course, right from the onset, opponents of CFK rallied on that precise argument: Nisman had the smoking gun against Cristina, therefore Cristina sent a highly sophisticated command to kill him. When the investigation failed to find a single trace of outside intervention, opponents kept working at it until Gendarmeria provided what they wanted.

    Problem is, Nisman's denunciation, the same he was going to explain in front of a Legislative committee just before his death, is full of holes--such as the supposed Interpol red alerts or the ridiculous claim of grains exchanged by oil-an oil Argentina can't use because of its sulphur content. The last thing Cristina needed was Nisman's death--on the contrary, her best option was to have Nisman explain his “denunciation” at the Legislature.

    A big stretch for the latest autopsy and conclusions of Gendarmeria (which has become the president's force of choice--remember the Santiago Maldonado's case) is the lesions it claims to prove an attack, such as a broken nose, which inevitably leaves traces that would have appeared in Nisman's face and be documented in pictures taken--but there was none. The Ketamina claim is also hard to support.

    Funny how those who make outright dismissals of Santiago Maldonado's suspicious death are so quick to rule Nisman's death as an assassination--and have even determined the responsible. (No other than, as British Kirchnerist rightly said, “la flor más bella.”

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • imoyaro

    I wouldn't believe anything you or Gauchito Drink post, Kamerad/Komrade Rique. Care to cite a non K source?

    http://en.mercopress.com/data/cache/noticias/60807/0x0/nisman-muerto.jpg

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    If Nisman had nothing on CFK then the only reasonable outcome would have been to allow the case to collapse on its own lack of merit. But by assassinating Nisman the bad guys showed that Nisman did indeed pose a threat to CFK. And the preponderance of evidence certainly does point to not just assassination but a deliberate contamination of the crime scene by CFK's own people (Berni and Fein) who are now under investigation and possible prosecution for their deliberate fouling of the crime scene to frustrate objective investigation.

    Ridiculous Reekie: “Gendarmeria (which has become the president's force of choice--remember the Santiago Maldonado's case...”

    Reekie has forgotten that there is no evidence that the Gendarmeria had anything to do with Maldonado's drowning -- the clown didn't know how to swim!

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @ZB
    “So if he'd testified against CFK wouldn't that have helped CFK's enemies? So why would they want to kill him?”

    Depends how good his evidence was. What we have seen is not very convincing, so either he had more evidence and was killed to hide it, or he did not and was killed because his death after making the accusation would throw more suspicion on CFK and co. than a weak denunciation would.

    My question is why did the gendarmerie carry out the new investigation? They should have got the same people who did the autopsy on Maldonado to look the evidence and carry out a second autopsy if necessary.

    And speaking of Maldonado, when are we going to get the final results from his autopsy? Perhaps the delay means they have found something after all.

    @EM
    Ketamine is a recreational drug; he could have taken it himself for all we know. Why do you find it hard to believe?

    Nov 08th, 2017 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Enrique Massot

    @DT

    The little traces they found of the drug could be indeed consistent with recreational use. However, the theory in the Gendarmerie report is that Nisman would have been drugged with Ketamina so he would not oppose resistance to his alleged murderers.

    @ML

    Ridiculous Reekie happens to know that Santiago Maldonado died in the midst of an illegal operation of Gendarmeria, which did have a judge's order to open the highway previously blocked by a group of seven Mapuches but not to pursue them down to the Chubut River, which is where Maldonado disappeared and later found dead.

    Ridiculous Reekie also knows that, since Maldonado's disappearance Gendarmeria has conducted many intimidation operations in Esquel and also in educational institutions in other parts of the country where memorials for Maldonado took place.

    Ridiculous Reekie also happens to know that the original judge was removed when found biased, reluctant to interview significant witnesses and unable to follow the most elementary leads in the case. The new judge in the case, Gustavo Lleral, appears to be conducting a more thorough investigation.

    Now, ML's last paragraph shows a callous personality, mocking a young man who died in suspicious circumstances. Just a few days ago, judge Lleral said nothing has yet been proved and regretted a myriad of theories advanced by media outlets without any basis--just like our know-it-all commentator ML.

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 01:13 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Marti Llazo

    Tree “Ketamine is a recreational drug...”

    “ Ketamine, sold under the brand name Ketalar among others, is a medication mainly used for starting and maintaining anesthesia. It induces a trance-like state while providing pain relief, sedation, and memory loss.”

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 01:14 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • golfcronie

    I think Maldonado was forced into the river by his mates so that suspicion would be pointed at Macri. Good a reason than anything else on here. He died so what one less moaning minnie

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • British_Kirchnerist

    “He died so what one less moaning Minnie”

    And you have the gall to call anyone else evil?

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    @EM
    Well, that's possible, or it's possible he took it himself before committing suicide to make it easier. It would help if we knew how much he had in his body, which the article doesn't say.

    @ML
    What's your point? The fact that a drug is used recreationally certainly doesn't stop it having legitimate medical or indeed veterinary applications.

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    Macri's golf caddy: “Have you seen the evil eyes of CFK evil bitch”

    Yes but you admitted on the other thread you were too busy ogling her nipples, dirty bastard

    ZB: “So if he'd testified against CFK wouldn't that have helped CFK's enemies?”

    Not with such a weak case, as Enrique explains below - best thing for Cristina would have been for him to make his case and have it laughed out of court. Maybe he was even going to change it?

    “So why would they want to kill him?”

    Classic way to frame her.

    Btw Douglas Adams was a lefty, don't think he'd have approved of you posting reactionary pish under that name.

    Enrique: ”Gendarmeria (which has become the president's force of choice--remember the Santiago Maldonado's case)”

    Good point wish I'd made it myself. This is looking more and more suspicious

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • golfcronie

    You can look into her eyes I would sooner look at her nipples, happy now?

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • British_Kirchnerist

    Not happy that you think its good that Maldonado is dead because he was a moaner, but think Cristina's the evil one (while ogling her). When you look at it that way you're quite a nasty piece, no?

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • golfcronie

    Yes, I am a quite a nasty piece, but truthful.

    Nov 09th, 2017 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    You're not truthful, Golfcronie, you're just speculating and talking shit about things you know nothing about. You do sound like a nasty piece of work though.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    Thanks DT love your posts too

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @golfcronie

    ”(Santiago Maldonado) died so what one less moaning minnie.”

    What a show of contempt for human life. Santiago was 28, was putting himself on the line to help Mapuches and did not deserve to die--in any form.

    I guess a tattoo artist's life does not hold the same value as that of a Prosecutor.

    Shame on you.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • golfcronie

    He chose his life and death no doubt. one should be more concerned over the deaths of 30,000 innocent victims of your so called military regime.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    Why should one be more concerned about the victims of the military regime? No doubt some people said at the time it was their own fault for choosing to protest and resisting the government, and good riddance.

    And whatever you think of the victims, we should all be concerned that the facts come to light and justice is done, for Maldonado as well as for Nisman.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • British_Kirchnerist

    “one should be more concerned over the deaths of 30,000 innocent victims of your so called military regime.”

    We on the left are very concerned about that, that's why Nestor in the middle of an economic crisis made his first act in power removing the portraits of the junta from the Casa Rosada. Followed by removing their pardons, which had been granted by the neoliberal Menem a forerunner of Macri. All the through the Nestor and Cristina governments there was a concern for human rights and memory politics, now turned backwards by Macri.

    Clueless as well as nasty

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Chicureo

    From the first report, it was obvious that the MURDER was being covered up to distract from the overwhelming evidence that the Argentine government's hands were dirty. CFK may not have directly ordered Nisman to be killed, but it was certainly done to silence him from testifying the next day.
    You may note that ALL the CCV imagery was conveniently unavailable.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 06:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @BK
    What is 'memory politics'?

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Marti Llazo

    In Argentina, memory politics is the invention of some falsehood and then using political means (including legislation) to keep that falsehood in the public eye. The invention of “30000 killed or disappeared” is an example. No basis in fact but legislatively protected and advanced.

    Nov 10th, 2017 - 07:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    Unsurprisingly, Marti comes here with an argument advanced by those who were part of the crimes and by backward segments of the Argentine society.

    These characters will say 30,000 killed or disappeared are, as Marti says, “an invention.” Similarly to Holocaust negationists, they will not advance a number. The truth is, no exact number has been confirmed. The criminals who organized the system that methodically eliminated any semblance of opposition ensured every military or police member took part in beatings, executions or systematic torture of prisoners to ensure a pact of silence. Some of them who refused complicity went also missing.

    At the end of the day, one person illegally detained, tortured, killed is already too many--be it a sibling, your child, Santiago Maldonado or each one of the 30,000.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 04:28 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @EM
    You're right, it's not the exact number of people disappeared that matters, it's the fact it happened, getting justice for them, and making sure it never happens again.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @BK “.....the neoliberal Menem a forerunner of Macri....”

    Menem ran as a Peronist.(Justicialista) - first for governor of La Rioja province

    Menem was elected president as a Peronist.

    Menem is still a member of the Peronist party and still runs as their candidate

    The attempts to remove Menem's immunity have been prevented by the Peronist bloc

    Néstor Kirchner once said that Menem was the greatest president since Peron.

    Néstor publicly praised Menem's Peronist privatisations.

    ---------------
    Once again, let us remember that the 30,000 disappeared is a complete fabrication, a wild exaggeration that the Peronists, ever mendacious in all they touch, have literally turned into law.

    Let's recall that several thousand of the “disappeared” were guerrillas of the pro-Peronist Montoneros (MPM) and the Marxist People's Revolutionary Army engaged in the sort of bombings, murder, and kidnappings that would have made Che Guevara blush. You will note that Peronism doesn't acknowledge the carnage committed by (its) leftist guerrillas. Yet the Dirty War was in large part a response to the terrorism of the Peronist guerrillas and their Marxist allies.

    When challenged to do an actual count rather than a wild estimate, the Argentine government came up with about 8500 dead or disappeared. The National Commission on the Disappearance of Persons gave the number as 8961.

    Evidently, an influential pro-Peronist journalist invented the number 30,000 out of whole cloth, but it served the Peronist purposes and the international Left. Like the work of the infamous Kirchnerist INDEC, the imaginary 30,000 has become one of the most convenient lies of the many Peronist lies that characterise this country.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    What are you trying to say Marti? That 30,000 murdered by the state would be terrible, but 8,500 murders is no big deal?

    I said earlier: “Why should one be more concerned about the victims of the military regime? No doubt some people said at the time it was their own fault for choosing to protest and resisting the government,” and here is Marti still claiming it was the victims' own fault their government illegally arrested, tortured and murdered them. Unsurprisingly this is the same person who called Maldonado a clown and seems completely undisturbed by his death.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree:
    Take a deep breath and think about what is realistic. I lived through the dirty war in Chile and numbers were highly exaggerated by all sides. What is clear is that people were brutally treated and many were murdered. It was a war of radical ideologies and the left was defeated. Eventually, many of the military were punished, but justice was never completely served.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    One must use simplistic terms to help you understand things, Tree. So I will talk more slowly this time.

    1. The Peronists were largely responsible for the terrorism that evolved into the Dirty War.
    2. The war they started unleashed terrible consequences.
    3. The Peronists lied about the outcome and continue to lie about it.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I'm not arguing about the number killed, and whether 30,000 is realistic or not. It happened and it's a horrible crime either way.

    Even if some of the people killed really were terrorists, that doesn't mean they deserved to be tortured and thrown out of aeroplanes to die, with their families never knowing what happened to them. And a lot of the victims were doing nothing illegal, but simply held different views to the junta. Students, nuns, ordinary people. Even newborn babies who were stolen from their families.

    As for 'the war they started unleashed terrible consequences', people are responsible for their own actions. It was the military who decided to unleash those terrible consequences, and that's why some of them are in jail for it. Each Peronist is responsible for their own crimes, if they committed any.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Tree, until you acknowledge the crimes of those initiated the conflict, you're acting with the same level of pitiful intellectual dishonesty as Ridiculous Reekie. And study a bit of the actual history from reliable sources, since your comments suggest you eat up anything that The Guardian and their ilk feed you. As we say, “infórmate.” Get it into your tiny brain that many of those killed by the Peronists/Montoneros/Marxistas were just as “innocent” and just as ruthlessly treated as were those on the sharp end of the later Dirty War. Now ask yourself - who really set that mayhem in motion? Get it through your soft English head that nobody is excusing crimes here, but rather seeking the initial source of the cycle of violence.

    Consider this applicable example: during the Goose Green battle in 1982, some of the argies put out white flags to give the appearance of surrender, only to then fire upon the British who moved forward to accept the phony surrender. Certain of the paras remembered very well this sort of argie treachery, and in subsequent engagements some adopted a take-no-prisoners attitude, with predicable results. Neither set of actions is acceptable, but in the real world of armed conflict, your initiating misbehaviour can have unfortunate an even disproportionate responses.

    By the way, I was in Argentina during the 1970s as a journalist. My first-hand experience with some of what went on here is a great deal more developed than yours.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 09:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Marti Llazo is disingenuously using the “Dirty War” argument, much used in Argentina to minimize what happened between 1976 and 1983 as a “fight” between two warring sides: Guerrillas and armed forces. The argument is known in Argentina as the “Theory of the Two Demons.”

    Of course, the argument is fallacious. First and foremost, even reprehensible conduct of citizens or groups do not absolve the State from its obligation to uphold the law.

    No matter the arguments advanced by Marti in defense of the criminal organization that were the Juntas, mounting a sophisticated, clandestine operation to act out of the boundaries of the law to exterminate political enemies was an abomination and the Argentine courts validated the concept in numerous sentences for crimes against humanity.

    Marti's snide defense of state terrorism also conveniently ignores that extrajudicial kidnappings, torture and killing of armed or unarmed militants by death squads started shortly after the 1973 election of Juan Perón and intensified under Isabel Martínez de Perón from 1974 to 1976, creating much terror even before the coup d'etat. See Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Anticommunist_Alliance

    Many of those kidnapped, tortured, killed or imprisoned before and after the 1976 coup had nothing to do with guerrilla--indeed, many were members of political parties, priests, lawyers, or journalists, taken in the middle of the night by plainclothed squads. Some were minors, others pregnant women, some physically disabled, and others old. The Juntas used similar treatment for all: blindfolds, chains, electricity, waterboarding during interrogations, isolation, deprivation, before “transfer” to final destination.

    Oh, and to find Marti's “initial source of violence” in Argentina one needs to look at general José Félix Uriburu coup against president Hipólito Yrigoyen: September 6, 1930.

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro

    “Oh, and to find Marti's “initial source of violence” in Argentina one needs to look at general José Félix Uriburu coup against president Hipólito Yrigoyen: September 6, 1930.”

    Ah yes, the coup the jackbooted golpista Peron got his start in, right Kamerad/KomradeRique?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Juan_Per%C3%B3n_con_jos%C3%A9_Uriburu_-_Golpe_de_estado_de_1930.jpg

    Nov 12th, 2017 - 11:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @ML
    Enrique said most of what I wanted to. And as I said before, the guerrillas are responsible for their own crimes, and the police and military for theirs. But if you are so determined to find the original cause, you might look at all the coups in Argentina. If people are barred from advancing their cause peacefully at the ballot box, it's less surprising that they resort to violence.

    “I was in Argentina during the 1970s as a journalist”

    If you happened to hold left wing views instead of right, you might not be here today to tell us that. Or you might have been like this guy: https://www.npr.org/2016/03/25/471891506/journalist-robert-cox-recalls-work-during-argentinas-dirty-war

    Were you one of the people who didn't want to know?

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 12:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Tree, I was detained by an argie army patrol in Bs As province. The story appeared in international media. The outcome was not as you might expect. So contrary to your characteristically flawed notions --- your never having been out of the Shire -- I was very much aware of what was going on.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    ML

    “Being detained by an army patrol” In Argentina. In the 1970s. Lived to tell the tale. Good for you, Marti. Others were not so lucky.
    Would be interesting to read some what ML reported at the time.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 04:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Yes, I'd also be interested to see what Marti reported at the time, or the story about him being detained, if he has a copy. Is there anything you can link to that doesn't have your name, Marti? (Assuming you care about that.) Or if you have a hard copy then modern cameras are often good enough to take a readable picture, and you can black out your name if it appears.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 07:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    BK,

    “Btw Douglas Adams was a lefty, don't think he'd have approved of you posting reactionary pish under that name.”

    You infer that Douglas Adams would be against following the evidence trail to find out who murdered Nisman. I disagree.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    ZB: Douglas Adams described Argentine economics... Remember bistro mathematics?
    As far as the Dirty War, I again remind everyone that many involved were far from innocent and many innocents were harmed as well. That's what occurs in a civil war.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @ Chicureo “...... Dirty War, ... many involved were far from innocent ......”

    Correct.

    ---------------

    @reekie: “ Lived to tell the tale..... Others were not so lucky. ...”

    Others were more deserving of their detentions.

    -------------

    There is a not-quite-secret instruction we had in those days in Argentina. We were told by our intel people and the regional security staff to carry our military identification as a last-resort mechanism, even though we were working (“plausible deniability” and all that) in civilian clothing. The argentine military really didn't appreciate journalists but understood that foreign military were also the enemies of their enemy, and thus acceptable as friendlies.

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    “We were told by our intel people and the regional security staff to carry our military identification as a last-resort mechanism”

    “Others were more deserving of their detentions.”

    Unfortunate implication: people without military IDs deserved to be detained, (and tortured, and murdered?)

    I'm getting the impression Marti may be a teeny bit biased on this subject. Do you think Enrique is deserving of detention too, Marti?

    Nov 13th, 2017 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Marti Llazo

    The ridiculous reekie and the ridiculous tree seemed to have both missed the point previously given, that while neither side during those years was innocent, those who set in motion the violence deserve the greater blame for what followed. You taunt that junk-yard dog, don't cry when it sinks its fangs into you and your mates.

    I am reminded of a certain songwriter in Spain who, after Franco's temporary death, was able to get away with criticising the excesses of the earlier military government. But I don't think he ever had quite the applause and audience acceptance until the time that, in reference to the brutality and insanity on both sides during the Spanish Civil War, he said words to the effect that “we were all wrong!” I was hoping that some day Argentina might achieve that sort of intellectual honesty, but there's precious little evidence of it so far.

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    Marti: the only thing I'd add to your post was that the civil war was occurring throughout Latin America. You have to had lived through the nightmare years to understand the reasons of what occurred.

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 02:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    “Others were more deserving of their detentions.” Don't just stop at “detentions,” Marti. Add bloody torture that included torturing family members of the kidnapped to make them talk. Add the “death flights” where prisoners were impaired with drugs and then thrown alive into the ocean. Perhaps some of them had participated in acts of violence. All the same, they deserved proper trial.

    Marti scurries all over the place, but one thing is clear: He abets the murderers who used the resource of the State to methodically eliminate all opposition from Argentina.

    The plan of the armed forces was to uproot socialist and communist ideas from the Argentine society, but it did not stop at that. It included the elimination of any idea of opposition to a power imposed by force such as that of the Juntas. This idea was behind the stealing of babies born to women kidnapped while pregnant (usually murdered after delivery), and given in adoption to families of military or police members, as well as to civils linked to the armed forces. The idea was to prevent those babies from ever find out who their parents were--which would have contaminated them.

    This mindset was illustrated by general Ibérico Manuel Saint-Jean, who in May 1977 said in a speech:

    “First we'll kill all the subversives, then their collaborators and their sympathizers; next we'll turn to the indifferents and to finish we'll kill the timids.”

    Marti insists that “those who set in motion the violence deserve the greater blame.”

    Obviously, by singing the praises of crimes against humanity that the Argentine courts have punished, Marti shows that, at least intellectually, he is one of them.

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 03:55 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • imoyaro

    Meanwhile, the despicable extremist Kamerad/Komrade Rique lauds Che and the Castro brothers as well as Peron. Let's look at what he represents, shall we? Extrajudicial arrests, followed by summary executions. Institutionalized torture, with hospital facilities to allow the victims to recover for more pain. Concentration camps for gays, political dissidents, and above all AIDS sufferers. Let's call it what is is, you fraud. YOU ARE A MONSTER. And yes I do believe you should be in prison, at the very least for preventative detention. ;)

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @ tree ”Unfortunate implication: people without military IDs deserved to be detained, (and tortured, and murdered?)“

    This is the sort of absurd leftist reasoning that DT exposes at every turn.

    Parallel story: Once in Medellín I went out without the obligatory identification and of course it was the night that the police locked down that part of the city and questioned everyone passing certain intersections. No ID but I had a business card. And that turned out to be my salvation that night.

    DT's logical conclusion from this would be ”Unfortunate implication: people without business cards deserved to be detained, (and tortured, and murdered?)”

    Is it any wonder he is not allowed in public without adult supervision?

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 10:07 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • R. Ben Madison

    It's heartening to see that the Kirchneristas haven't blamed the Kelpers yet.

    Nov 14th, 2017 - 03:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Ah, I knew Imoyaro wouldn't disappoint, even if Marti is reluctant to come out and say innocent people should be jailed.

    @ML
    At most one of these things can be true:

    1. That Marti the innocent journalist did not deserve to be detained, but despite actually agreeing with the military government, he was at such risk of detention he had to carry a military ID for security.

    2. The people detained deserved it.

    Pick one.

    Your Medellín story would only be a parallel if you additionally declared that other people out without their IDs that night deserved to be detained (tortured, murdered), and you didn't. If carrying your ID was mandatory, then my logical conclusion is that you broke the law that night and were lucky enough to get away with it.

    As for the Spanish Civil War, the difference is that was actually a war, unlike what happened in Argentina where one side had all the power of the state and abused it horribly. As for “we were all wrong”, when are you going to acknowledge that the military junta was wrong?

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Tree, what part of “neither side during those years was innocent” do you still fail to understand?

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    And of course the lack of memory politics in Spain hasn't ended so well, with Rajoy threatening to blow the country apart over his refusal to allow the small progressive changes necessary to democratically defeat separatism. But what should we expect from the PP a party founded to oppose democratisation...

    Zaphod: “You infer that Douglas Adams would be against following the evidence trail to find out who murdered Nisman. I disagree.”

    Where did I or anyone oppose following the evidence on Nisman? It doesn't point to Cristina. To accuse her is an extraordinary claim lacking extraordinary (or any) evidence

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @ML
    This part: “Others were more deserving of their detentions.”

    Some were deserving of a trial and punishment. Some were not deserving of anything. None deserved to be disappeared, tortured and murdered by their government.

    And this: “those who set in motion the violence deserve the greater blame for what followed.”

    It's not true. The military had to deal with terrorists, but there are many ways to do this. They chose to respond with state terrorism. Everything was done outside the law, in secrecy. People were disappeared so no one would know their fate, and they were tortured and murdered without trial. They didn't only do this to people who were involved in violence, but to those who merely disagreed with them. You just admitted that you were in some danger of suffering the same fate, if you hadn't been an 'enemy of their enemy' with your military ID.

    They were not forced to do this by Peronists, they chose to do it for other reasons. Your junkyard dog is an animal and cannot make moral choices, they are people who are responsible for their own actions.

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    @DT

    Marti has backed himself into a corner and now seeks a way out through distracting stories of his meanderings through trouble zones in Latin America.

    But he won't disapprove thousands of kidnappings, torture and extra judicial executions the international public opinion has condemned and for which the Argentine courts have convicted a number of individuals.

    This reveals some extreme views most people will reject, perhaps with the exception of imoyaro, who is dismayed to see his friend in deep mud.

    However, I believe it could be educational if Marti openly explained his fascination for those who hold power--and keep it by any means available.

    @imoyaro

    OK, let's see:

    ”Let's look at what (Enrique) represents, shall we? Extrajudicial arrests, followed by summary executions. Institutionalized torture, with hospital facilities to allow the victims to recover for more pain. Concentration camps for gays, political dissidents, and above all AIDS sufferers.”

    @imoyaro
    I did have a good laugh and believe our friend is going bonkers. However, for the record, I hereby express my total opposition to any abuses of human beings. I strongly advocate for respect for political dissidents and AIDS sufferers, as well as for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Queer and Transgender people.

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie of course still doesn't understand how his Marxist and peronist guerrilla folks brought about the initial terrorism that escalated. Not that we would have expected him to. Nor that the bulk of the blame lies with them.

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @ML
    I finally worked out who you are reminding me of: it's Think, saying something like the US and British governments are to blame for the current Islamic terrorism because they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and killed lots of people and bombed weddings; they set the violence in motion. Do you agree?

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Enrique Massot

    @ML

    Of course, never expect any response mildly reasonable from ML.

    This is a soul that has rationalized a mindset where the end justifies the means and where ideas are suppressed by obliterating people.

    In ML's self righteous world, Peronists, Marxists and anybody else not subscribing to his dark, elitist vision is good for the chopping block.

    However, let him write here, where at least the damage he can inflict is limited.

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie's people:

    'The People's Revolutionary Army (ERP) was the military branch of the communist Workers' Revolutionary Party) in Argentina. ERP was founded as the armed wing of the PRT, a communist party emerging from the Trotskyist tradition, but turned to Maoist theory of the Cultural Revolution. In the 1960s the PRT adopted an insurgency associated with Che Guevara. The ERP launched its guerrilla campaign against the Argentine government in 1969, with urban guerrilla warfare methods as assassinations and kidnappings of government officials and foreign executives. In 1973 the ERP kidnapped Esso executive Victor Samuelson and obtained a ransom of US$12 million.They also assaulted several companies' offices using heavily armed commandos of the ERP's elite “Special Squad”. Crónica de la subversión en la Argentina (Buenos Aires: Ediciones Depalma) indicated that the guerrilla activity occupied 52 towns, robbed 166 banks and took US $76 million in ransoms for the kidnappings of 185 people.The group continued the violent campaign even after democratic elections and the return to civilian rule in 1973, with Juan Peron's return. The avowed aim of the ERP was a communist revolution against the Argentine government in pursuit of “proletarian rule.” '

    ERP guerrilla activity inclued attacks on military outposts, police stations and convoys. In 1971, 57 policemen were killed fighting the guerrillas. In 1972 another 38 policemen lost their lives in the guerrilla violence. In April 1973, ERP guerrillas kidnapped Admiral Francisco Agustín Alemán. 293 Argentine servicemen and police were killed fighting left-wing guerrillas between 1975 and 1976. Far from receiving popular support, the ERP faced growing public sentiment that it should be eliminated by any means necessary. ...

    Posted 6 days ago - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    Come on Marti, aren't you going to tell us whether you think the US and allies are to blame for ISIS terrorist attacks? It's a nice parallel; since one party set the violence in motion, in Marti-logic they must be to blame for the other side's response, no matter how evil that is.

    And remember that Brazil and Uruguay were were also afflicted with violent guerrilla groups, and even more violent military dictatorships. Both engaged in wholesale imprisonment and torture, but they didn't kill nearly as many people as Argentina did.

    In both countries, former guerrillas have later renounced violence and gone on to become president. Stopping the violence was not enough, the real point of the killing in Argentina was to eliminate any people or ideas opposed to the junta, so that this could not happen.

    Posted 5 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Enrique Massot

    @DT

    “Stopping the violence was not enough, the real point of the killing in Argentina was to eliminate any people or ideas opposed to the junta...”

    You hit the nail on the head.

    Generally, during the Cold War in Latin America, most leftist parties were illegal, which prohibited a segment of the population from participating in democratic processes.

    Add to that the continuous breaking of the constitution by armed forces with powerful political and logistic support from the U.S., and you get the right conditions for a segment of the young population to be disenchanted and ready to join groups proposing the overthrow of the military by violent means.

    In addition to the countries you named, a negotiated peace process in El Salvador allowed former guerrillas to participate in their country's political life. Left and centre-left parties now exist in most Latin American countries, allowing for most segments of the population to peacefully participate in elections. What made this possible was the understanding that violence never ends violence, and that the only way to break the cycle is through peaceful negotiations.

    Not that any of this will ever be understood by va-t-en guerre Marti.

    Posted 5 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Reekie's people:

    The Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (“AAA”) was a far-right Peronist international death squad founded in Argentina in 1973 and most active under Isabel Perón, though only one of several Peronist paramilitary groups of the time. The AAA acted as a terrorist organisation against several government opponents, including not just the Marxists but also left-leaning educators in Argentine universities.

    The AAA had tacit and sometimes active support from the Perón government, particularly its top federal police officials. The Perón government support to the AAA terrorism included funding diverted from the Ministry of Social Welfare. In the infamous 1973 Ezeiza massacre, right-wing Peronist AAA snipers killed several left-wing Peronists who had gone to the airport to celebrate Perón's return to the country. The Peronist AAA is believed to have murdered between 1100 and 1500 people. Its targets included Argentine police, members of the congress, judges, and perceived activists. After support within Argentina for the AAA diminished, many of its members went to Spain where it continued its terrorism, including murders of Spanish residents involved in the Socialist coalition in the post-Franco government.

    Posted 5 days ago - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Enrique Massot

    Marti is again skirting clarification on whether he approves of the kidnapping, torture and extra-judicial executions of thousands of Argentines by the military juntas that seized power between 1976 and 1983. Instead, he attempts to appear respectable by offering Wiki copy-and-paste history lessons.

    There is no way out: violence engenders violence. Initiatives to allow the free expression of all, instead, favour peaceful exchange of ideas.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    The accounts are about your people, reekie, your murdering terrorist Peronist friends. You don't even recognise that what was described was.... pre-Junta.

    But for the benefit of those who might not remember, which reekie attempts to avoid, it was the evil Peronists on both sides responsible for the murders, bombing, kidnappings, and other violence long before that evil Junta joined in the fray.

    Such is the lack of honesty of reekie's people.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    “far-right Peronist international death squad” “reekie's people”

    Yeah right. Now you just sound desperate; at least stick to left wing terrorists if you want to pretend Enrique supports them.

    All your copy-pasting is just an attempt to avoid the issue anyway. You think it's okay to torture and murder people because someone else did it first. Honestly, saying “but he started it,” is what you expect from a six year old.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Marti Llazo

    Actually, tree, it's for the benefit of people like you who have no understanding of the history and nature of Argentina. And you still have a long ways to go. As far as your ability to recognise and comprehend the denunciation of acts of terrorism here in Argentina, you need to work on that part as well.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    Unless you are trying to convince me that you support the military government and are A-OK with torture and murder, you are going about it all wrong.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Enrique Massot

    Marti: Stop twisting and dancing around the point. Just acknowledge that you justify kidnappings, torture and and extra-judicial executions as long as it's done in the pursuit of superior goals such as the elimination of evil people such as Peronists and Marxists.

    Posted 4 days ago - Link - Report abuse +2

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