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Montevideo, September 21st 2018 - 03:02 UTC

Tillerson's first tour of several Latin American countries in early February

Saturday, January 27th 2018 - 08:57 UTC
Full article 54 comments

United States Secretary of State Rex Tillerson will travel to Austin, Texas, and then to Mexico City, Mexico; Bariloche and Buenos Aires, Argentina; Lima, Perú; Bogotá, Colombia; and Kingston, Jamaica on February 1-7. According to a release from the State Department, Secretary Tillerson will engage with regional partners to promote a safe, prosperous, energy secure, and democratic hemisphere. Read full article

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  • Patrick Edgar

    ... Why “Bariloche” ? That's VERY odd.

    Jan 27th, 2018 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Clyde15

    Tell us why that is odd. On second thoughts don't. It would set you off on one of your rants which nobody wants to read.

    Jan 27th, 2018 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    It's peculiar ... considering some of the events going on around there, the people from “abroad” who live and have property in that area. A city which after all is primarily tourist destination in Argentina. Yet he is going to meet with supposedly people from the scientific community, under the good banner of conservation practices at the Nahuel Haupi National Park, but not until later?... meet with President Macri? Who is he going to meet there??? (besides the mentioned ones, obviously)
    It's also very embarrassing as an American, to see how my country “thinks” in terms of swooping in single trip one big “Latin America itinerary”. It's hideously revealing of how Washington still perceives our nations as a whole in the Southern Continent.

    Jan 27th, 2018 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    I thought it was obvious what the USA thinks of Argentina...a basket case.

    Jan 27th, 2018 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    Oh? I guess so... because if there is one thing that these two English speaking powers have had in common since after WW2 is to progressively seek weaker, poorer, less popular countries, less advanced and thus less able to defend themselves countries (perhaps after arming them first a little bit, to save face, and prepping them with unpopularity propaganda first... sort of to “tenderize them” ya?) so that they can then take (or rob some of their own people say even) whatever they want from them, and do whatever they want to them through the suggesting of intimidation. An easy win that they foolishly fell for and could never win. Like the Falklands War of British Shame, as a matter of fact ! ... Interestingly enough these two countries advocate and insist on other countries adopting civilly and legally installed homosexuality. Which of course is all about psychological weakness, lack of self and the praise of “stronger men”. Easy butts for the rapist mind? So.... perhaps ... you might be on to something Clyde ! ... I never thought about it much, until your intense need to dishonor insult abuse and belittle made me think about it a bit. Thanks buddy !! ;)

    Jan 27th, 2018 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    I don't need to dishonour, insult or abuse you. Anyone objectively reading your posts would think you are getting off lightly.

    “Like the Falklands War of British Shame” Yes, it is to our shame that we did not go for you tooth and claw.
    Let's see, you come ashore mob handed terrorising the civilian population and mistreating them. Masses of gunfire which by luck did not result in civilian casualties. You were ordered out by the UN and you flatly refused....Argentina the perpetual victim !
    You were given a salutory lesson. The USA asked us not to humiliate you which we could have easily done.. instead, we treated the cowardly bully gently.

    You colonised your current part of S.America by force. With Britain's aid in the 19th century you began to prosper. Britain was edged out...your choice...and then the rot started.

    You slid down the rankings of world importance to reach the nadir you are now in.
    By your thinking , someone MUST have done it to us ...it must be the Brits. as it could not possibly be our fault. You are annoyed that the world does not take you seriously..tough..it's of your own making. You are actually jealous of the UK as you cannot haul yourselves up the totem pole when you think erroneously that you should be top dog .
    What do your neighbours in S.America think of you. It must be galling to be so far below Brazil in the world's estimation.

    OK, which countries have the UK and the USA advocated and insisted on adopting civil and legally installed homosexuality.
    I can't think of one as the UK has no say in demanding other countries adopt homosexuality in law.. Just another of your made up “non facts”.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Great Britain, one of the most armed and militarily experienced technologically supper wealthy and intensely trained armies on the planet, opts for bringing a war onto an archipelago populated by 2000 calm and peaceful farmers, to war not a country invading those islands, but on a whimsical dictatorship taking possession of an existing disputed territory trying to save face in its occupied country, keeping it secret from it's people right up to the invasion date, yet armed with disheveled forced conscripts from a People that had never ever even conceived of a military action against a country it regarded as a FRIEND in the world, fifty years behind it in military capability, untrained entirely inexperienced, hardly any weapons at its disposal nor much less any nuclear armament to match that now invading country's capabilities, which also was backed by the United States and NATO, and where in contrast these Argentine soldiers malnourished and ill maintained tormented by the obvious impending outcome of a war they did not sign up for fought alone, and additionally their neighbor recruited to betray and assist this world military power. Moreover had it gone on any longer this invasive robber of the world's land, had planned on bombing city factories, train stations and harbors in this country it has always purported to be a friend of, even though resorting to such things echos the desperate last moments of WW2 extremes in long and on-going exhausting wars. Here you had an innocent population held hostage to an genocidal Military occupation whose soldiers were forced at gun point to fight an allied nation, or so its people naively believed.
    Your country practically rapped Argentina just to be right about the Falklands and take them all to yourselves when they have always been disputed since the day your country spotted them. I could go on and on exhibiting this hideous contrasts of this British pathetic chapter of recent world war history it tries to embellish with ph

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 11:24 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    .. Interestingly enough these two countries advocate and insist on other countries adopting civilly and legally installed homosexuality.

    nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/americas/16argentina.html

    Did we force Argentina to adopt gay marriage ? Wrong again Patrick but that will still not prevent you from believing it..it's the way your fuddled brain works.

    Lets set the facts straight. We did not opt to bring a war onto the archipelago...the Argentine government did with overwhelming military force.

    The rest of your post is incoherent in the main. If you read accounts from the Argentine side, they say there were many well trained troops on your side....the marines who defended Mt.Tumbledown who caused the Scots Guards trouble before we finally pushed you off. Your air force and navy were well equipped and trained but were beaten by a smaller force.
    Do you also remember that your country was also going to invade CHILE after the Falklands. Does it then surprise you that Chile aided us to contribute to their own self defence. Argentina fought alone, read a bit more about it. It received direct help from Israel, Peru and Brazil.

    Yes you could go on and on and on with your version of history but that does not make it true.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Patrick Edgar

    I WASN'T DONE YET ! ...
    ...I could go on and on exhibiting this hideous contrasts of this British pathetic chapter of recent world war history it tries to embellish with phony honor. Any people on this planet would have little trouble after 25 minutes of internet research coining this conflict “Britain's Shameful War of Greed Arrogance and Phony Friendship”

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    You were done ages ago !

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Well no... you didn't exactly “force” Argentina to do something that it was in any case already dealing with in its own way. It's more like your civil state philosophy contaminated Argentina, (Spain, France, Italy, Russia, Portugal, Mexico, South America, Japan, Australia maybe even... etc etc) I am only meaning your gay community political agenda mind you, for now. And yes also... your country maybe not so much forced, as it did pressure other countries to “adopt” your definition of Human Rights, or else you plaster the communications medias of the planet with slanderous accusations to the effect of being backwards countries that don't know how to respect one other. Yes, You're country “pressures” and black mails threateningly countries to adopt its thinking. It's ridiculous! You think other people in their own countries don't have a sense of what it means to have rights? to respect one another? To know what to do with their own bodies? You're moralistic judgmentalness has over the last few decades transformed into a sort of oppressive invention created by the English and the American speaking political cultures invasive morphing into its political expansionist domination agendas slandering other countries through international medias, seeking to turn the world's public opinion against those countries so you can rape them (figuratively speaking of course) the way you normally do. It's a complex thesis on militant communications political psychology actually. But You're all crazy still the same! Look. I know your personality style. I know it because I can compare it through my own life experiences. You relish morally in-dignifying and belittling people degrading them (after you have targeted them as an enemy of course) until you succeed in convincing them that you are better than they are. That's your trip. Not very nice people. Hence why you are not known around the world for being warm and loving friends. Like let's say... the Greek, Spanish or Argentinians are.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    More Patrick-nonsense. How do you find the time?

    Argentina legalised gay marriage before the UK did. So did quite a few other countries. Not the US though, they had a Defence Against Marriage act and a lot of hypocritical religious leaders to deal with first. But that doesn't stop Patrick's rather Freudian fantasy.

    As for this:

    “You think other people in their own countries don't have a sense of what it means to have rights? to respect one another? To know what to do with their own bodies?”

    Yes, I do think exactly that, because people in some countries cut off their daughters' genitals, and believe it is acceptable to murder their own children if they want to marry the 'wrong' person. Obviously they do not respect each other, or allow them to decide what to do with their own bodies. I believe human rights are universal.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 08:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    warm and loving friends. Like let's say... the Greek, Spanish or Argentinians are.
    The Greeks yes, I have been there many times, the Spanish possibly, not been to Spain much the Argentinians....I wouldn't think so....you are a prime example of hate which I presume permeates your society.

    So we persuaded Argentina ?????? Get real ! Kirchner was eager to adopt British attitudes ?

    Scandinavian countries also have freedom in sexuality. Presumably we persuaded them too.
    .un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

    I believe Argentina signed this. You would repeal it and vote for the mass murder of 6,000,000 Jews and Gypsies, genocide in Kosovo, Ruanda, the Congo, the current state in Myanmar, etc. I am totally ashamed of my country and others in the UN for backing the Human Rights act
    Your definition of rights allows the execution of gay people by throwing them off buildings or as in Iran hanging them in public from cranes. You are a charmer !!

    What has gone wrong in your life ? Do you feel an utter failure and need an external enemy to blame.. that seems an Argentinian characteristic.

    There are several Arg. posters on here who have got it in for the UK. but even they do not come across as mentally unhinged with an enormous chip on their shoulder as you do.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    Patrick Edgar

    A braying mule should be so stupid!!!!!! Many PSYCHOTIC Argentines like you are unconscious racists and don't even know it as says an increasingly accepted body of academic opinion based on international studies. You've repeatedly demonstrated being homophobic, PSYCHOTIC, anti-Anglo and suffering from delusions of Iberian-Argentine grandeur, with your English language composition skills being absolutely atrocious. Why is it you tend to dwell a lot about homosexuality and persecution of the Catholic Church? Are you still insanely suggesting the majority of us here don't know the truth! What an outrageous insult against our moral conscientiousness! Despite our offers of an olive branch of peace and enlightenment, you brusquely deny the awareness of truth! You would be surprised to see just how swiftly an Argentine would STEAL someone's property being when he has absolute no claim. We've shown you an infinite patience and we certainty find ourselves severely disappointed in your stubbornness to accept truth. To remind you once more, Argentines are a very KLEPTOMANIAC violent society based on corruption, FAR inferior to its neighbor states of Chile, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay and Brazil. Frankly you mistakenly deflect the truth by answering through a different interpretation what we have already said, look in a mirror and see the reflection of your pitiful Latin soul. FOOL it's not too late, despite your lack of civilized culture and what comes out in your ignorant posts can be forgiven. And yes?.. We all can conclude you already know in your heart that we see your PSYCHOTIC emotionally prejudiced sarcasm and meanness you have for English and it's people. As you have already agreed however with the fact that even so, “the Junta was stupidly tactless and brutal.” They could've done things completely differently, to where it would have put Argentina in such a position of exhibiting their own self serving THIEVERY and the war would have never come!!!

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Patrick Edgar

    yaaawwnnnnn zz zz

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    Patrick, what do you think we should do about countries where armies are committing genocide, like in Rwanda or Kosovo? Should we just say it's not our culture; we don't want to be morally judgemental, and leave them to it?

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    DT

    It's a waste of time trying to have a rational discussion with him. He is unhinged.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    I thought so too, but he just admitted he was wrong about something in another thread, so I reckon it's worth giving him one more chance.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    DemonTree

    ...Ask him again about same sex marriage and English persecution of the Catholic Church... He seems to go especially nuts on those two themes.

    Jan 28th, 2018 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    He's not an Argentine...

    ...and living there for a total of six years between the age of eight and fourteen still doesn't make him an Argentine...
    and six years as a child doesn't make him an expert or representative of Argentina..

    ..I have slept for longer...

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 01:58 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Patrick Edgar

    @ Demon, what DO you think we should do? Are you saying that all countries have the right to invade or attack countries whose government military forces are killing too many innocent civilians? I don't think you realize the lack of precision, criteria and detail that “concept” you just casually blur out has, in terms of talking about the principals of being a nation and a people's country in this world. What if we all did the same? Should China invade the US because its prisons houses something like 2, 3 or god knows how many thousand innocent wrongfully convicted people and about another 2 or 3 hundred thousand excessively abusively over sentenced people? Where does it end, and where does it stop... this world of high and mighty righteousness of yours. Who would god have given the moral authority to decide upon the path fate and destiny of another nation, and who not to? How do you decide that, in other words?
    @Voice. I am. But please... do tell us. What would make someone an Argentine or any nationality for that matter?
    Anticipating you are going to reply with the safe answer, “being born there” I'll bump it on further and ask you back, Is that the only way you can be a given nationality?... Then you'll say “No”, and I'll ask again ... What other ways then? ...and start the class for everyone (apparently)

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @PE
    Ideally the UN would agree to send a peacekeeping force; that is one of the purposes of cooperation between nations. And killing a few too many civilians is not the concept we are talking about. It's deliberate mass murders, and the UN have created international laws in order to decide precisely what counts as a war crime.

    Now you answer the question, what would you do?

    “Who would god have given the moral authority to decide upon the path fate and destiny of another nation”

    Who gives courts and judges the moral authority to decide upon the path, fate and destiny of the ordinary criminal? If citizens in Argentina can agree that murderers should be in jail and forcefully arrest them and lock them up, then the countries in the UN can agree to international laws, and punish countries who break them.

    As for China, they don't give a fig about the excessive number of people locked up in the US. They lock up an excessive number of people themselves, for lesser crimes and with much less accountability. We don't even know how many political prisoners there are in China, or who is really guilty, given the lack of fair trials.

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    I would say neither of those things and instead leave the answer to those more qualified than myself...

    Key Differences Between Nationality and Citizenship

    The differences between nationality and citizenship can be drawn clearly on the following grounds:

    The status arising out of the fact that a person is the origin of a particular nation is called Nationality. Citizenship is the political status that can be obtained by meeting the legal requirements set by the government of the state.

    The nationality is an ethnic or racial concept. On the other hand, citizenship is a legal or juristic concept.

    The nationality of a person indicates his/her place or country of birth while the citizenship of a person shows that the individual is registered as a citizen by the government of the respective country.

    A person can become a national of a country by birth or by inheritance. As against this, there are a variety of ways through which an individual can become the citizen of a country, i.e. by birth, inheritance, marriage, naturalization or registration.

    The nationality of a person cannot be changed. However, his citizenship can be changed.

    The nationality of a person cannot be taken back, once acquired while the citizenship of a person can be taken back.
    ...I want you to really think about this last one Patrick..
    A PERSON CANNOT BE A NATIONAL OF MORE THAN ONE COUNTRY. IN CONTRAST, A PERSON CAN POSSESS CITIZENSHIP OF MORE THAN ONE COUNTRY AT A TIME.

    You are not Argentine...

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 08:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Patrick Edgar

    ... just don't say that to anyone who counts on you telling them the truth about me Voice, or they'll think you're intentionally lying to them. ... just a tip ;-)

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @PE
    I answered the question above, will you please do the same?

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    @DemonT . Please don't ask me to think so much! Ask me again please, succinctly and specifically the question, si vous plait

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Chicureo

    Patrick

    Too afraid to comment on the recent White House announcement?
    Or you just a hypocritical bigot?
    ...just asking...

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 11:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    @PE
    “what do you think we should do about countries where armies are committing genocide, like in Rwanda or Kosovo?”

    Jan 29th, 2018 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    Provide escape routs for its people. Not get involved in the fighting, nor help one faction over another.
    .
    My Spanish correction was only a couple of missing words. The way you conjugate the verbs, like in any other language is a matter of personal flare, Do you want to say “I can walk and hear people who speak their laguage” or “I can walk and hear people speaking their language”

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 12:28 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    And if that means thousands, or millions of people die, you are okay with that? What about sanctions and other non-violent means of persuasion?

    RE Spanish, I meant to say the latter, but I think that the -ando/-iendo form is not used as much as -ing in English?

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 12:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    DT, There is such a thing as “the English speaking Culture”. If you look at the world as a whole, and observe the various forces and tendencies that cross over boarders and arrive at the printing presses of other nations, specially now days with the advent of an intensely productive movie and information industry, what actually has the greatest impact force is carried by a society's language. Foreign languages are making other countries even THINK differently. If in a country like Uruguay let's say, which has never been attacked by a Muslim anti Israel extremist group let's say, we read one day on a headline “Government launches new measures against airport terrorism”, it will be not because it is something the people in that country are concerned with, but because its very notion has been slowly seeped in, not necessarily intentionally yet nonetheless “imported” by the English language through several means. This linguistic science about the world today, is actually intentionally wielded by 'some' (just to not get into specifics). Why do you think the Argentine angrily denounce Bristol “Human Rights Organizations” about fueling and boosting a previously different natured problem, which wasn't exactly what it is purported to be now, in areas of still prevailing indigenous populations in the South of Chile and Argentina? The instigation is atrocious. Intentionally or not, groups of people smell the power, see the invented imported fight, and go with the new “social invention” to selfishly attack and create problems just to feel more powerful themselves, instead of civilly dealing with their countries' problems. Do you think Britain later acknowledges accountability? On No, what they do is get “instigation happy” and throw more wood into the fire. Soon you will learn why in so many countries in the world are very angry at the British and American political personality, unfortunately see it as governmental direct intention.

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    Did you mean to post this twice, Patrick?

    I've got another question for you. If you don't think countries should interfere in each other's business, no matter how bad things get, do you agree the UN should stop passing all those resolutions on Israel and just leave them to it?

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 11:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Patrick Edgar

    No. I was trying to post something that was much more interesting and important, really well written, about this same subject matter and the NATO Capitalistic invasive agenda, when right after I pressed Enter I got an error message, oddly in Spanish, which lasted about fifteen minutes though only trying to open MercoPress, while still able to enter every other site. I got so desperately angry that I posted what I had on my draft board suspecting it maybe wasnt what I had just written, but re posing it anyways.
    So ...

    What I think is that we need to let countries change transform and evolve their political systems, including us. As far as the UN goes, I believe the UN's function should not be reprimanding nations. The UN needs to be completely redesigned, and start over on a plane of accurate social and language demographic representation without any exclusive or special group of nations. It needs to start over from the place of individual seeking will on behalf of each nation.

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    You need to chill, Patrick. There's no point getting so angry at a computer, you'll just give yourself an early heart attack. And it's not odd at all that the error message is in Spanish, you know this website is based in Uruguay no matter what its purpose is.

    I guess that was a yes then, the UN should stop reprimanding Israel? If some country decides to murder a minority, we should all sit back and let them die?

    Another question: citizens in Argentina have agreed to create a police force to protect them from criminals, and judges and prisons to lock them up if found guilty. Do you think this is okay? And if so then why oppose countries in the UN doing the same thing?

    The UN is a very flawed organisation, but it's better than nothing. Pressure from the UN was a big reason that countries like Britain decolonised peacefully, and it does tend to reduce the number of wars etc. You have to bear in mind that it is a collection of nations and it reflects its members. Some countries are inherently much more powerful than others, and without the UN the less powerful ones would not have a voice at all. The sad fact is that if the UN was truly egalitarian, countries like the US, China and Russia would be simply leave it, and it would become pointless.

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Tillerson appears to be interested in closing various deals in Latin America - with the Drug-Lords of course - to ensure a constant rise in the “exports” to the USA and also the constant exports of arms FROM the USA. So what's his “Cover-Story”?

    Jan 30th, 2018 - 02:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Chicureo

    All

    Check “Falklands' Dictionary of Biographies”

    In a recent post, “BrianFI” has exposed Patrick Edgar as an North American that was living in Hawaii, pretending to be Argentine. “He recently tried to move to Argentina but was deported having failed to get a work permit. He has numerous convictions for drug use and related crimes and this has clearly addled his mind, that is why he rambles on like a madman. The only reason he is on here is because he was banned from Facebook for making homophobic comments. How do I know this? He used to be an active member on some Falkland pages until he was banned for being homophobic, this is all public knowledge...”

    Jan 31st, 2018 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    Damn, Chicureo, you're becoming almost as bad a spammer as Hepatia and Brit Bob. It's not like we didn't know most of that already.

    Jan 31st, 2018 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Patrick Edgar

    :-O

    Jan 31st, 2018 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    Patrick, do you think it's okay for the police to arrest murderers and for society to put them in jail?

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 09:35 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Patrick Edgar

    what I think is that we're going about it the wrong way. I think we need to keep people safe from criminals but our priority must be to understand why this occurs to their lives, and see the criminals as the victims of a life that would not have come out that way, understand why they become criminals and deal with those factors and, those problems. Not take the easy way out by blaming people who are ultimately the victims of society. it's about being accountable for the society we create and for the people we educate. Today's lazy mentality is about a witch-hunting punishing god. it's cruel and ultimately unjust

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    @PE
    “understand why they become criminals and deal with those factors and, those problems”

    I think we should definitely do this to try and reduce crime in the long term, but the priority should be keeping people safe from criminals. Even if your ideas worked it would take a while to reduce crime, and there will always be some people who are willing to break the law to get ahead, and if there were no police and no jails there would be a lot more of them. We need to deal with these so society can function.

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 04:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Clyde15

    PE
    Complete nonsense. I was brought up in a tough area in Glasgow. In primary school our class sizes were about 40. We all lived in the same type of crowded housing and there was very little disparity of incomes.- money was tight for all.

    So basically we all started about equal. We all had the same education. Some of us did well and others went bad. Nothing to do with society. Morality was learned from your parents.

    Two of my erstwhile classmates ended up in prison doing life for double murder.

    The group I kept with became University lecturers in languages and physics, teachers, Royal Navy and Merchant Navy officers, RAF Pilots, civil engineers, mechanical engineers and accountants. All from the same background of society.

    It makes me think some people are just intrinsically bad.

    Society did not put them on that path, they chose it to make“easy money”

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    @Clyde15
    As far as I know none of my classmates have become murderers, but one was a murder victim.

    I agree some people will go bad no matter what, but society and upbringing do play a role, otherwise the crime rate would not vary so much between countries and decades. Simple things like the chance of getting caught and how much they have to lose will affect whether someone turns to crime. And as we saw with the MPs expenses scandal, if everyone around them is bending or outright breaking the rules, most people will forget their principles and join in.

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Clyde15

    DT

    My point was that we all came from the same background and society BUT some went wrong while others didn't. I don't see how society can be blamed for the decisions that individuals take when the same opportunities are available to all. Some of the ones who went of the rails were quite intelligent and could have made something of themselves.

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    It's not that society is to blame for people's choices, but that the choices available depend on society. People still have to make their own choices and even in the best circumstances can go wrong, but the easier society makes it to do the right thing, the more people will do it.

    Also, if instead of going to school in a rough area of Glasgow you had gone to Eton like David Cameron, your bad classmates would have got plenty of easy money from their parents and wouldn't have needed to turn to crime, and if they did it would be something like stockmarket fraud or stealing from their company's pension fund instead of murder.

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Clyde15

    My point is that we all had the same choices--some went one way and some the other.
    “Society” gave us an equal chance.

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    I understand that, but you're only considering the people who had the same choices. While you were at that school with a class size of 40, there were other kids who weren't going to school in a rough area, and most of them didn't end up in jail even if they did make bad choices.

    Compare it to higher education. Back then less than 5% of young people went to university, now it's nearly 50%. In both periods you had to be smart and work hard to have a chance of getting in. Everyone you were at school with had the chance to go to university, and everyone I was at school with had the chance to go to university, and we can both truthfully say that society gave everyone in our class equal chances. But you could't say we had the same chance as each other, could you?

    Feb 01st, 2018 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Patrick Edgar

    You are both wrong.
    It's at this matter of simple mathematics. If your reasoning starts from one your understanding is whole. If your reasoning starts from 2 then your understanding will be perpetually divided. Humanity the Social Collective or Civilisation is a whole. Front that whole all; governmental orders institutions, social and political philosophies, countries, cultures, moral ethical thinking as well as religions were created.
    Did God ask you to go look for he who must be blamed and is at fault? If one listens to how you guys are speaking the inference is that there is inexorably one who fails and one who sails. Yet we as a species, all of us are accountable for how we raise one another and how we educate ourselves culturally and socially in every way. This division that you yourselves don't see, is caused by our weakness and ignorance or shallow thinking regarding the many ways that we cause the behaviour of others and are accountable for Society. Or we could call it other things like our general lack of love, disregard for the suffering of others, spiritual laziness, meanness, selfishness etc etc

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 08:31 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    PE

    No. You wouldn't understand.

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 09:29 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    “Did God ask you to go look for he who must be blamed and is at fault?”

    Which god? The one in the old testament was famously keen on an 'eye for an eye'.

    “If one listens to how you guys are speaking the inference is that there is inexorably one who fails and one who sails.”

    There's this thing called free will, Patrick. That means people can make bad choices that lead them to fail, and society cannot stop them unless we remove all choice from everyone. That would be a horrible dystopia.

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Oh well !

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    It doesn't mean we should just give up though. There's so many things we can do as a society to make it easier for everyone to succeed and encourage people to be productive and happy. And I agreed with you above that we should try to understand why people turn to crime, and deal with the factors that encourage it. We just need to be realistic about human nature.

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Patrick Edgar

    Please indulge me in giving you a little exsersize; Try and put in higharchical order, or from most to least, the things that most fundamentally are essentially laid in our brain starting with the most primitive and primordial which describe the human brain as it evolved, which without we wound not be what we are today.

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for, but it sounds like a lot of effort. You do it first and I'll tell you if I agree.

    Feb 02nd, 2018 - 02:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -1

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