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Montevideo, September 19th 2018 - 19:36 UTC
A top Brazilian court has received 146 habeas corpus petitions on behalf of former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva following a dramatic back-and-forth between lower court judges over whether he should be released from jail. Read full article
A DESPERATE - now OR never - situation:
Am pleased to see Laurita Vaz told the PT where they can shove their dozens of requests for HC...
RE 'Brazilian ex-billionaire sentenced...'
Strange. Here are the original links without the timing thing:
but I’d add tt this hat fits the liberal lefties as well
I think that's true in a way, but it's not the same. There sure are crazies on the left, but they are mostly young people on social networks or at university. I don't think it's the MSM misinforming them but groups they have formed who pass around rumours. The right used to be similar, but recently in the US and Europe it has gone mainstream. Fox is more biased than all the other news channels put together; the first time I saw it I thought it was a parody.
And Trump and his spokespeople are an order of magnitude worse than normal politicians (of both parties). Quite apart from inventing a terrorist attack from whole cloth (Bowling Green Massacre), his blatant lies about Obama, the WTC, the economy, and even his inauguration crowd, on Thursday he came to Britain and did a TAPED interview with the Sun (owned by Murdoch, very sympathetic), and on Friday he turned around and called it fake news. The point of his constant lies isn't to make people believe any one thing he is saying, it's to make them stop caring about the truth at all. He doesn't need to actually achieve anything as president, all he needs to do is tell them he has done something, and they start cheering. He doesn't need to be better than his opponents, he can just invent whatever lies he likes about them, and his supporters will boo or threaten them.
What is happening in Italy is not just about immigrants, or the law. Most of the Roma are there legally, many are citizens, but they are a group easily singled out as 'them' instead of 'us'. If you want the support of the majority it's so useful to have a minority to blame things on.
Ok, links opened. Re ‘down syndrome child’, CNN makes a lot of very dramatic statements ..kids in cages, the president's a liar etc…easy when where is no one else in front of the camera to contest them...say what they want…AFAIC, CNN is definitely left-wing, and I suppose people will believe what they will.
Re the Ann Coulter link, denying her charges that many of the kids are ‘child actors’, I’m more inclined to believe her, given that many parents did in fact send their kids on ahead…in the hope that once they were in, their admission would be automatic. If not enough, in both links, the lefties speak as if they are the sole owners of the truth, and to reinforce this, in the Coulter link they spare her no insults - ‘most disgusting person’, ‘the right is full of lunatics’, and when all is lost, resort to calling her a ‘racist’. ..typical ...I’m fed up listening to them.
Your leftist crazies may be social networkers or College students, but unfortunately that is not true for Brazil …here they are fanatical groups who resort to violence, instigated and financed by the radical left (including the PT…and Lula, who on more than one occasion has publicly threatened he’ll get the MST to show society what it’s all about…invade farms, destroy them, block highways etc..nice, eh?).
OK, you don’t like Fox, and I don’t like CNN. I think Fox reports on what the left tries to hide. People’s reactions seems to be more ‘n more based on irrational emotion rather than the truth, and that works because populations are generally not-too-bright, 'n don’t demand better.
Agree that Trump is not particularly diplomatic, but I don’t defend OB either, on any count. It’s just that BO had a more ‘presidential’ way of lying. Throwing one group against the other is very common in order to achieve certain goals, i.e, what the Italian government's doing in Italy, and what the PT/Lula has done in Brazil…Politics is dirty anywhere, 'n even more so when powerful groups have a lot to lose
Maybe by Mistake he can be freed?
I’m more inclined to believe her
So even the immigrant kids are liars? Typical manipulative behaviour of the strangers coming to infest us, as the article put it. Do you think kids need coaching to cry when they are taken from their parents by uniformed men and left alone in a strange country? Or perhaps you find their stories of daily violence, cities turned into war zones with frequent shootouts between police and rival gangs, implausible?
You started the discussion by saying you didn't agree with the separation of families of immigrants, these people start by making fun of the children and calling them liars, to reduce the sympathy we would otherwise feel. Many Americans want less immigration, but how far are they willing to go to stop it? These commentators want to push people's boundaries, what they are willing to have their government do in their name, because if they can make coming to America even worse than what the immigrants are fleeing, they will stop trying.
I didn't expect the Young Turks to appeal to you - they are an opinion show not news, and make no pretence of being unbiased - that is why I tried to link you straight to the relevant section so you could see the interview without being annoyed by them first. But everyone believes they know the truth in general, and you have said similar things about Lula yourself: TH and Lula …both are arrogant liars, uncouth, disgusting pigs, amoral, immoral. The people in the video have had a lot more than one interview to form an opinion of Ann Coulter.
I think Fox reports on what the left tries to hide.
Like what? You think CNN is left-wing, but you can see the difference between them and the Young Turks in the second video, right? I see Fox as much further out on the scale of bias, not as far as the Young Turks but way beyond CNN. A lot of their shows are also opinion more than facts.
People’s reactions seems to be more ‘n more based on irrational emotion rather than the truth
“So immigrant kids are liars?” Didn’t say that - said the commentators take a fact 'n twist it to suit their bias / ideology. I don't believe for a second, that they are 100% impartial. Do you ?
Don’t think small kids need ‘much’ coaching (to cry), but wouldn’t dismiss the possibility, i.e. you choose to not believe that many of the unaccompanied kids arriving at the border might have gone through some form of ‘coaching’ by their parents; AFAIC, the parents are just as much to blame as Trump’s zero tolerance policy. Reconfirm I don’t agree with the separation, but it doesn’t prevent me from placing blame where I think it’s deserved.
“Or perhaps you find their stories of daily violence etc…” not at all, but why should the US take responsibility for them (without checking who's who 1st) ? Seems you part fm the principle the US is responsible for them, not their own countries. It’s funny you have no problem believing how bad crime is their countries, yet you sometimes doubt what I say abt Bzl.
Re the YTs, if anyone is disgusting it’s Ana Kasparian…a radical who thinks she owns the truth, ‘n simply dismisses the fact Ann Coulter was quoting the New Yorker, an anti-conservative paper, when she mentioned “child actors”, “scripts to read from” etc. Then they project an image of a 2 yr old in distress, ‘n say it applies to ALL the children…load of BS. Don’t defend Ann Coulter either…she too is pretty radical. As to TH, no comments needed ; and re Lula, I’ve seen a damned sight more than interviews to form my opinion. My dislike is based just as much on his proven corruption as on his ideas (FdeSP) which, if were similar to European-style socialism, would be palatable. The YTs are idiots, 'n Fox is no more R than CNN's L.
“...to reduce the sympathy we would otherwise feel.”…Isn’t the liberal press doing just the opposite, i.e., to increase it
In politics, I try to understand and rationalize info before forming an opinion, I don't just pull ideas out of a hat.
Before anything else, I wanted to say that I dug out the videos and survey because you called those paragraphs fake news. I'm sure you still don't agree with the author's conclusions, but now you can see that the incidents referred to are real, so it's not fake news.
RE Ann Coulter and Lula, it's not different; either it's okay to say what you really think or not. If you are convinced someone is disgusting, immoral or racist, you can be polite and keep quiet or find some PC way to say it, or you can be blunt and say exactly what you believe. Seems you prefer the latter, so don’t complain too much when the people you disagree with do the same. You can think differently without saying they have no right to hold that opinion.
About the stories of violence, I was being sarcastic. Americans might find it hard to believe there are cities where crime is so bad that more civilians are killed each year than in literal war zones, but you have more experience.
And we weren’t talking about unaccompanied kids; obviously the parents who sent their kids to the border alone are responsible for that, and Trump is responsible for splitting up the families who arrived together.
Coulter *did* call kids liars: don't fall for the actor children, and she didn't say the parents were coaching the kids, but blamed unspecified 'liberals'. If she's quoting the New Yorker, you should be able to find the article, right?
Now, I do agree some of the press was trying to increase sympathy for the kids but 1. children are famously terrible at acting, 2. if the kid they interview doesn’t cry or seem sympathetic enough they can always try another, but it's still real, 3. Coulter doesn’t give any evidence and she’s hardly reliable, so why are you inclined to believe her?
This a tradition on the American right now. All the conspiracy theories about fake massacres and 'crisis actors', there's too many people who have completely lost touch with reality.
I'd write more but there's no space...
IS SHE WRONG?
I finally got around to watching the rest of the video. You are angry with Ana Kasparian for saying the right-wing talking heads on CNN are lying? (And how ironic that the YTs dislike CNN for the completely opposite reason to you.) Well, I think Coulter was lying, about the children and the New Yorker article, and I'm inclined to agree with Kasparian.
RE sympathy, I think people are naturally somewhat selfish and will put themselves and their families first. Telling them to care about others and contribute to society is a hard sell, especially when the others are not like themselves in whatever way. After 2000 years, how much traction does 'love your neighbour as yourself' really have? But if you tell people what they want to believe, they will be happy to accept it. Hence churches that preach the prosperity gospel and Ayn Rand supporters. I see Coulter and those like her as giving people an excuse to give in to their worst impulses, and those can have horrific results.
And throwing groups against each other is especially dangerous. I don't like it when the left do it, and I sure don't like it when the right do. I guess you don't have the history over there, but in Europe if we've forgotten the Nazis we had the Yugoslav wars to remind us. Neighbours turning on each other, massacres, war crimes, mass rape, ethnic cleansing in a formerly peaceful country.
As for BO, there's no comparison. For all I know he didn't care about honesty, but he knew if he told blatant lies he'd be caught and lose support. That's not true for Trump. His supporters don't care if what he says is true, so he makes no effort not to lie and just says whatever is convenient at any given moment.
OK, video content might not be fake news, but D.Lemon ‘n his panel of four, interpret the facts putting their own liberal twist on them. Kasparian, with her disparaging way of speaking abt others, as if her views are all that count ‘n everyone else's are lies, is not worthwhile listening to. Checked AC’s calling the kids ‘actors’ (ok, wrongly attributed by her to Suketo Mehta’s artice in the NYorker), while a bit strong, she too, probably dramatized to make a point...and yes, was talking about the unaccompanied kids, ‘n what parent wouldn’t tell them what to say (if old enough to understand) when arriving at the border ? Then Uygur’s “name someone as terrible as AC on the ‘left’”…sure, all ‘lefties’ are perfect ; the truth is probably somewhere inbtwn AC’s ‘n YT’s opinions. Fact is both are dispensable.
“You can be polite‘n keep quiet or find some PC way to say it, or you can be blunt ‘n say exactly what you believe”….the problem with the PC, is that it conveniently ignores or usually omits parts of the truth...but why the need to disguise the truth ? It’s only reasonable in everyday situations where common sense tells you to not be ‘nasty’ gratuitiously. I don’t make a point of looking for ‘hair on eggs’, but the liberals’ are a bit far-fetched…their idealism is very noble, but not practical. See no similarity btwn AC ‘n Lula – AC is an outspoken commentator with extreme views. It wasn’t Lula’s radical ideas that made him a criminal, it was his actions, in the name of his political project (FdeSP); anyway, wasn’t me that convicted him…2 lower courts & 4 judges did, after analysing tons of evidence ; to pardon him due to his claims of ‘helping the poor’, may be an option to some, but not to me. Putting yrself & family first is not selfish, it’s the instinct of survival ; “love your neighbor etc”, not very realistic. “People will usually be happy to believe what they want to”…yes, but no harm in checking out what you choose to believe, if the issue is important
So AC wasn't quoting the NY'r, their article had nothing to do with the present crisis. She was spreading a rumour with no evidence, to try and discredit the kids suffering from Trump's policy (oh, and 'liberals' too, of course, because she didn't accuse the parents, or reporters, or immigration lawyers of feeding them lines, but anyone who believes differently to her).
For the unaccompanied kids, I think you are right, because kids wouldn't know what's important to tell an immigration officer. But it's less of an issue if the kids are with their parents, because it would normally be the latter answering most of the questions. Anyway, AC wasn't accusing the parents.
”name someone as terrible as AC on the ‘left’”
I bet you can think of people in Brazil who would qualify, and I can think of at least one in the UK (George Galloway; opinionated, offensive, and far left), but none in America. Yet I could name 10 more like AC on the right. Perhaps the YTs themselves would qualify, but they are very far from having the same level of influence. I bet you'd never heard of them before I linked you, and I wouldn't have done that if I had found the AC video elsewhere.
As for Lula, sure there's not much in common, but you don't hate him for accepting a free apartment. There's no shortage of corrupts in Brazil and you don't have such a violent reaction to all of them. Wasn't it his radical opinions - as expressed in eg the FdSP - that made you hate him?
RE PC, what truths do you think are being hidden by it? And if you believe someone is lying, are you being PC if you don't say so?
love your neighbor etc, not very realistic.
Not very. That's one reason communism doesn't work, but still, encouraging caring about others makes for a much better society in my view. I think that there's little chance of persuading people to be 'too nice', because it's working against human nature, but doing the opposite, as AC tries to do, is easier.
Looks like AC was just trying to enforce her agenda, without getting her facts straight. I'm perfectly capable of believing that the unaccompanied kids are having a rough time on their own, and in these cases, the parents are to blame......they 'used' their kids, and that the liberals ignore....If AC didn't blame the parents, she should have.
Sure, I could think of quite a few that would qualify, but Ugyur thinks it would be impossible to have someone like AC on the 'left'......
I had heard references to the YTs, but had never seen them in action....don't know whether they believe the crap they spout, or whether they do it, for the same reason they accused AC....to please their audience/followers.
I agree that Brazil has more than it's share of corrupt politicians, all milking the taxpayers, but there is one difference when it comes to Lula....he was elected based on promises he did not keep - nothing unusual - but instead of using his influence to do the right thing, which he could have, quite easily, he did the bare minimum for the people while he stole their future....The poor really believed he was different, that he'd combat corruption (which was the PT's motto before getting to power), but he turned out far worse than any one before him....what makes Lula despicable, IMO, are not necessarily his crimes, but his disgusting personality...he respects no one, and has shown, on several occasions, he'll throw his best friend under the bus to save his own skin...The FdeSP is just the icing on the cake. All together, you have one nasty SOB.
When PC is used by politicians, that's when it's misleading....on a daily basis anyone can choose how to express their thoughts, but with politicians it's synonymous with lying, omitting the full truth. By definition, 99% of politicians are dishonest in one way or the other, rarely tell the truth because it usually incriminates them...tell another lie to cover a previous one, and so on. Lack of honesty is the problem.
without getting her facts straight
Yes, and if you are going to accuse innocent kids of lying and acting, you should bloody well check if it's true first. (The parents have some blame for crossing the border, but their kids didn't make that choice.) Just shows she cares more about her agenda than the truth, which is exactly what I object to.
Sure, I could think of quite a few that would qualify
Go on then, I want to know who you think is the left's equivalent to AC.
Surprised you had heard references to the YTs; I ran across them on Youtube a few years ago but haven't watched that much. They did have a funny video about Mitt Romney when he was a candidate. I reckon they do believe what they say, those beliefs are nothing out of the ordinary on the left. (And if CNN was like that, then I would believe it was as biased as Fox.)
what makes Lula despicable, IMO, are not necessarily his crimes, but his disgusting personality
Okay then, not his opinions but his personality. I suppose it isn't really one thing but the sum of all of them.
I bet the YTs would object to your opinion of Lula just as much as you do to theirs of AC, and I daresay would attempt to justify theirs in a similar way. I'm sure they think AC is a bad influence on society, and that is reason enough to dislike her. But they are not here and I don't know her as well.
As for politicians, I think you're being a bit unfair. Maybe the Brazilian ones are 99% dishonest, but I think most of ours do have *some* principles. And if you are being really picky then 99% of all people are dishonest, not just politicians. I'm sure you've told lies in your life and I know I have.
As to TH... and re Lula, ... My dislike is based just as much on his proven corruption ...I'm sure you've told lies ...I know I have. As a proven compulsive liar, the question should be when do you not lie. All is revealed, mea culpas
Plus Brazilian government recently requested for the UN Human Rights Committee to halt its investigation into ex-President Lula’s arrest, the request was rejected and the investigation is moving forwards. http://ww w.brasilwire.com/un-investigates-lulas-imprisonment/
The Left, Right & Centre - ALL are at the throats of each other in the desperate attempts to grab the largest possible piece of the public funds! In the meanwhile:
...and if you are going to accuse innocent kids of lying and acting, you should bloody well check if it's true first, based on the fact I didn't say the kids were lying, or acting, just that I was ‘inclined' to believe AC, to which I later retracted, presume you’re referring to AC ?
I know the kids weren’t asked what ‘they ‘ wanted, but I find it quite natural for their parents to try to instruct them how to behave..
Unfortunately my cable TV operator removed ‘Fox news’ abt 2 yrs ago, which means I am not as up to date as I'd like to be on who’s who regarding political commentry on US TV...what I've seen of Noam Chomsky, not very much really, but the fact he defends Lula and believes a 'fair' election should include a prison inmate, shows he prioritizes his BS over the facts ; Michael Moore (don't think I need to say anything about him)… and then (amongst others) you have politicians : Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Maxine Waters (D-LAX), Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX), three ladies who twist facts to suit their agenda and IMO are even a disgrace to politics - which is already dirty enough; obviously there are plenty of other bull shitters on the left, as it is not an exclusive privilege of the right.
Re the YTs, never followed them, but had seen them briefly on cable in the US - for a couple of seconds before switching channel.
Re Lula, it is hard to find any good quality of his (such as an earnest attempt to do the best for “Brazil”), or to separate the politician from the criminal, so I reckon it IS the sum of all his accomplishments.
When I said 99% of politicians, was indeed referring to Brazil…here, it usually attracts the worst people…unscrupulous scum, with no morals whatsoever.
The fact Europe's politicians, and their voters, are more educated /conscious, they know they can’t get away with murder, and don't make it their MO.
Sure, everyone lies now & again, even clergymen…but when a lie affects the lives of millions, it’s a different story.
Yes, I was referring to AC, didn't think you shared all her views. And it's much more important for her to get the facts right anyway, since she is on national TV.
RE your names, I've at least heard of the first 3. Michael Moore certainly qualifies as he is both radical and famous, although he's more the old school 'workers and unions' style of left than the worrying about minorites type. Do you object to both views just as much?
Noam Chomsky I mostly know of as a linguist, but I was aware he was a polititical activist too. Is it mostly his involving himself in Brazilian politics that you object to?
Of your last three I'd only heard of Pelosi, and don't know more than the basics. But turns out Maxine Waters is in the news right now:
Can't say I approve of her comments about Trump, but asking for no counter-protests seems wise when it would be so likely to devolve into fighting. And how alarming that the people who should be preventing violence are the ones threatening it. These Oath Breakers seem pretty crazy; self-agrandizing enough to call themselves the 'warrior class', and ranting about enemies within. That part reminds me of the McCarthy witchhunts, but otherwise they aren't very similar, being a paramilitary organisation. I just hope Trump doesn't start egging them on, everyone who worries about him being a fascist will be totally convinced if he gets his own private army.
And I can't say I'm sorry you're unable to watch Fox every night. We'd probably be arguing a lot more if you were getting your news from them. (I almost never watch CNN, or any American network, by the way.)
when a lie affects the lives of millions, it’s a different story
I agree. As for Lula, I daresay other people can find good qualities in him. If you hate someone that much it's hard to see anything good.
Besides his being a leftie, the impression I got from Michael Moore, is that his interest in getting involved in liberal causes was more motivated by the chance of making a quick buck for himself than anything else…he saw a chance to take advantage of gullible liberals, and filled his bank account. His attacks usually focused on only what suited him, and he chose his battles carefully.
I don’t share Chomsky’s views – AFAIC he’s a political idiot who should be more worried with his country instead of spouting crap about things that don’t concern him…he’s not worth the bother of ‘objecting’ to.
Maxine Waters is a ridiculous person…she manipulates her supporters and makes them believe she is actually concerned for their safety...her inciting her supporters to harass her “enemies”, in restaurants etc, is very 'noble' of her…how about if were the other way around, and she were the target of conservatives ? and when she runs out of arguments, she resorts to racial motives to justify her rants.
Whoopi Goldberg too – mentioned in yr link - has indeed turned out to be ‘bat schit crazy’…much like Sheila Jackson Lee.
The ‘other’, and only people who see good qualities in Lula, are those who are getting the BF, ‘champagne’ socialists (who want to look good in the photo) and those who stand to gain, or survive at the cost of a criminal organization called PT.
But to be fair, I’m open to listening to rational, well based arguments on the “good” he supposedly did…and if they standup to scrutiny, OK…Lula & Dilma gloat about their achievements, but the fact is, when examined more closely, you discover they’ve used some gimmick to make them appear what they aren’t…but the ‘good’ he did, if any, was so superficial that it was unable to withstand the crisis which exploded on Dilma’s watch, and which the PT insists had nothing to do with them.
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