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Montevideo, September 20th 2018 - 11:25 UTC

Argentines turnout to the streets to demand end to corruption and Cristina Fernandez immunity

Wednesday, August 22nd 2018 - 06:43 UTC
Full article 36 comments

A massive demonstration concentrated in front of Argentina's congress in down town Buenos Aires to demand the removal of ex president and now Senator Cristina Fernandez immunities and the approval of a “dominium extinction” which would force “corrupt politicians” to return stolen money and assets. Read full article

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  • golfcronie

    Do not destroy walls, floors or ceilings, of course the money if found will be in her nicker drawer will it not?All they need to do is ask ” Where did you and Nestor get all your riches, surely not on a President Salary.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 08:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • chronic

    Cretina suffered from severe Putin envy.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Seriously....

    Let's leave stolen money in secret vaults for anyone to find...for how many years...?
    Don't move it...don't destroy it...just leave all that hard evidence there...
    Who believes this crap...?

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 03:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    While failing to take responsibility for steering the country to financial disaster, president Mauricio Macri is doing his best to convince Argentines a deteriorating economy is the fault of the previous government.

    Similar to ‘cacerolazos’ of the past, this anti-Kirchner demonstration attempts to apply a fresh coat of paint on a lacklustre government that has failed to fulfill a single one of its pre-election promises.

    To justify its poor performance, the Macri government has blamed drought causing a poor harvest, US raising interest taxes, Brazilian recession, Turkey's economic crisis and most of all, the alleged corruption of the government of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, who according to some would have stolen amounts equivalent to one - even two - Argentine's annual GDPs.

    However, as an IPSOS poll released Aug. 17 revealed, Argentines’ main concerns are inflation, unemployment and poverty.

    Reality has this bad habit of meddling even with the best thought-out PR operations.

    https://www.ipsos.com/es-ar/principales-problemas-de-argentina

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Think

    Argentines and their housemaids turnout to the streets to demand end to.........:

    http://archivo.argentina.indymedia.org/uploads/2008/06/att00001.jpg

    Chuckle..., chuckle....

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Cheshire_Cat

    Voice - Half of the Argentine business community, senior Kichner government officials have all testified against Cristina Kirchner as part of plea deals. There is ample proof for the allegations of corruption, it's not just notebooks or testimonies from people seeing bags with bribe money, but also offshore societies in Delaware, Switzerland and Seychelles, former Presidential aides with huge condos in Miami, or a Kirchner-owned hotel where Lazaro Baez (NK right-hand man) would rent empty hotel rooms year round as a way to launder the money obtained from lucrative government contracts and bribery. Then there is the whole secret deal with Iran for which Cristina Kirchner has a pending arrest warrant. This march was MASSIVE, Argentines are fed up with corruption, and the Senators (mostly peronist) protecting their own cronies with Senatorial immunity - Not just Cristina Kirchner but also Menem who was President in the 1990s and also has pending arrest warrants. A former VP and a public works minister (De Vido) are already in jail and it's only a matter of time till Cristina follows suit. I welcome this protest movement, it signals a cultural change against corruption. It's particularly important because in Brazil there have been marches AGAINST imprisoning Lula, so I am glad to see Argentina is going against this trend. When government steals so blatantly they compromise the welfare of their citizens but also democracy itself.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Cheshire_Cat

    I don't doubt a lot of folk would like to believe in secret vaults and off shore accounts full to the brim with money...but so far I have seen zero hard evidence of this so far and why would a chauffeur even keep notebooks risking his job and possibly his life if this was large scale corruption...
    ...just all appears a bit far fetched to me...

    Corruption in a Latin American country...well I never, who'd have believed that...

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Cheshire_Cat

    Voice - Oh but it's all so very blatant. Forget the notebooks, they don't matter in the grand scheme of things. A government airline (Aerolineas Argentinas) advertising the hotels of the Kirchner family on its website is open corruption. Lazaro Baez getting most public works contracts in the Kirchner government in Santa Cruz, and then funneling that money back to the Kirchners through rentals is blatant corruption. Multinational corporations admitting they paid bribes to the Kichner government is blatant corruption. A prosecutor murdered a day before he was suppised to testify against Cristina Kichner is blatant corruption. The notebooks are anecdotical and just the tip of the iceberg. We can either resign ourselves to the idea that “that's the way things are because this is Latin America” or people can demand change the way they did yesterday.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 06:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Think

    TWIMC...
    (and Mr. Cheshire_Cat...)

    Mr. Cheshire_Cat starts his phillippic above declaring that...:
    ***“ There is ***”AMPLE PROOF“***... for the allegations of corruption, it's not just notebooks or testimonies from people seeing bags with bribe money , but..., ***ALSO OFFSHORE SOCIETIES IN DELAWARE, SWITZERLAND AND SEYCHELLES....

    I kindly request anyone in here to please provide this auld humble Patagonian with the above mentioned ***AMPLE PROOF ABOUT OFFSHORE SOCIETIES IN DELAWARE, SWITZERLAND AND SEYCHELLES***...

    If somebody could able to produce such ***AMPLE PROOF” in here..., It would make me quite happy...

    Un saludo Patagónico...
    El Think...

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Voice

    Cheshire_Cat

    I haven't been following events, so perhaps you could enlighten me...
    That's a fine lot of allegations you have there, but has anyone been found guilty so far...?

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Cheshire_Cat

    I have been following events..., so perhaps you could enlighten me...
    That's a fine lot of allegations you have there, but has anyone been found guilty so far...?

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • golfcronie

    Com'on Tinkle, you know and I know that the situation in Latin America is “ you scratch my back and I will scratch yours ” If you do not offer a bribe you do NOT get the work. It is endemic in Latam countries and I think to a lesser extent it happens in big business. The idea is not to flaunt your new found wealth otherwise you bring the wrath of the law on you, at least in the civilised world.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    golfcronie

    So that would apply to the current Govt too...?
    So in effect this story is mere sensationalism...?

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOL... de Voice... ;-)

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 08:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Cheshire_Cat

    Voice - Former Planning Minister Julio De Vido is imprisoned for fraud against the State on the cases of the mine in Rio Turbio ($200 million in stolen funds) as well as importing gas at marked up prices through the state company Enarsa. He has 4 other charges for different corruption cases still ongoing. Former VP Amado Boudou is imprisoned for fraud through the money printer Ciccione which was a private venture that was nationalized, he benefited from the nationalization and has been imprisoned with a sentence of 5 and a half years. He has another charge pending for phony expenditure bills (viaticos). Lazaro Baez (friend of the Kirchner family) has been imprisoned for fraud to the State through his company Austral Construcciones.

    Think - You can start your reading on the vast network of offshore societies linked to Kirchner and his cronies in this link.

    https://www.infobae.com/politica/2016/10/08/la-ruta-del-dinero-clarens-desde-sociedades-offshore-en-el-reino-unido-panama-y-uruguay-se-manejaron-millones-de-dolares/

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    Cheshire_Cat

    I think you are confusing being accused and being remanded in custody with being prosecuted and found guilty...
    You are moving goalposts...of the original accusations that you listed...no one has been found guilty and are still protesting their innocence...are we clear on this...?
    Former VP Amado Boudou's prosecution had nothing to do with the Kirchner's and no one has claimed it has...
    One would think that those languishing in custody would be taking advantage of the new Repentance Law which allows defendants to see reduced sentences in return for providing information on criminal activity....
    Instead of protesting their innocence...

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 09:41 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Think

    Mr. Cheshire_Cat..

    You..., grandiloquently speak above about...:
    ***AMPLE PROOF (against the Kirchners) ABOUT OFFSHORE SOCIETIES IN DELAWARE, SWITZERLAND AND SEYCHELLES***...

    When asked..., you back it all up with a journalistic article..., written by an Argentinean Anti-Kirchner newspaper... were they describe in detail the small Off-Shore operations of a quite unknown financier that ***“allegedly”*** was one of Mr. Kirchner's favourites...

    The said article offer no proof or evidence whatsoever about any wrong doings nor any connection with the Kirchner family...

    The said article doesn't even mention SWITZERLAND..., SEYCHELLES OR DELAWARE...!

    Sooooooooooooooooo much for your ***“AMPLE PROOF”***...
    More than a Cheshire cat..., you look like a smelly one...!
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92vTUFqy3gU
    Get a grip..., laddie...

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Cheshire_Cat

    Voice - You asked who was convicted of the former government, I gave you a name - Former VP Amado Boudou. De Vido is about to start trial and will likely be convicted as well. To say he is not linked to the Kirchner's is disingenous. He was Cristina's handpicked running mate and was supported by her throughout the investigations. She only distanced herself from Boudou once the sentence was passed. Argentine justice is very slow, which is part of what these protesters are complaining about. The investigations cannot advance as long as CFK has immunity.

    You asked about the Repentance Law: It's not just businessmen but two high-ranking members of her government - Public Works Minister Uberti as well as Secretary Lopez - have just decided to take advantage of the Repentance Law so it will be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

    Think - So all the media in Argentina is on an anti-kirchner conspiracy then? Because Perfil has talked about Kirchnerite corruption since the early days of their government, Noticias magazine, Clarin, La Nacion, investigative journalists like Ernesto Sanz or Mariel Fitzpatrick, just to name a few. Infobae is not particularly anti-Kirchner and in fact it was late to the party in speaking about corruption issues. You may want to deny all you want, the netowork of offshores is still being unravelled, but Lazaro Baez getting 80% of public works contracts in the province of Santa Cruz (and second place at the national level) is a matter of public record. If you think it's normal for a close friend of a President to go from a middle class bank teller with no companies to his name in 2001 to one of the richest men in the country with one of the largest construction companies in Argentina over the course of 12 years, then I have a bridge to sell you.

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Voice

    Cheshire_Cat

    I didn't ask you who was convicted of the former Government...I asked you who in relation to your accusations had been found guilty...
    The correct answer to that is no one...
    In relation to your reply concerning the Repentance Law...I note the tense, “it will be very interesting to hear what they have to say.” is a future tense..
    So as it stands no one has been found guilty and no one has offered enough hard evidence to bring about a conviction...
    Here say and allegations....so far...
    Come back to me when you have some facts and convictions and I'll be happy to listen...

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Think

    Mr. Cheshire_Cat...

    A lot of uninteresting blah..., blah..., blah.... and hearsay from you...

    FIRSTLY...:
    - What happened with your...: ***”AMPLE PROOF“***...... (with Kirchners) OFFSHORE SOCIETIES IN DELAWARE, SWITZERLAND AND SEYCHELLES....*** huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...?

    SECONDLY...:
    - You are telling (again) porkies to Mr. Voice...
    ***“Two high-ranking members of her government - Public Works Minister Uberti...”***, you say...
    If Uberti was Public Works Minister..., I am the Queen of Saba..., I say...

    Turnip...!




    Just hearsay

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Voice

    He is telling me porkies Mr. Think...
                 
               “ The investigations cannot advance as long as CFK has immunity.”

    but I have read this..
                    “ According to Argentine law, Kirchner - now a senator - CAN BE TRIED AND SENTENCED, but parliamentary immunity protects her from imprisonment.”

    Aug 22nd, 2018 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Think

    He is indeed telling us porkies Mr. Voice...

    He says...:
    ***”Lazaro Baez getting 80% of public works contracts in the province of Santa Cruz (and second place at the national level) is a matter of public record“***
    I say...:
    A matter of public record is that Mr. Lazaro Baez company was in 43'th placd at the national level..., not second place...

    He says...:
    ***”You think it's normal for a close friend of a President to go from a middle class bank teller with no companies to his name in 2001 to one of the richest men in the country with one of the largest construction companies in Argentina over the course of 12 years“***
    I say...:
    I KNOW he was NOT a close friend of ANY President... I KNOW he went from being a BANK MANAGER to be a not too rich..., unpleasant Noveau Riche with the 43'th largest construction company in Argentina.... Thats what I KNOW...

    He says...:
    ***”The investigations cannot advance as long as CFK has immunity.”***
    Fact being...:
    - According to Argentine law..., Mme.Kirchner - now a senator - CAN BE INVESTIGATED, TRIED AND SENTENCED,... but parliamentary immunity protects her from arrest and imprisonment BEFORE A GUILTY SENTENCE HAS BEEN REACHED...

    Aug 23rd, 2018 - 12:11 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    “parliamentary immunity protects her from arrest and imprisonment BEFORE A GUILTY SENTENCE HAS BEEN REACHED”

    And even after that, too. Menem's been found guilty and sentenced for two different crimes (committed in the 90s) but still isn't in jail. Apparently it has to go through all appeals first as well, I doubt he's got anything to worry about.

    Aug 23rd, 2018 - 12:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Zaphod Beeblebrox

    Reekie,

    “Reality has this bad habit of meddling even with the best thought-out PR operations.”

    The reality was a very large spontaneous anti-CFK demonstration, no buses, no choripans, no violence.

    Aug 23rd, 2018 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +7
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT (Cont. of “Argentina pledges USD 500 mill”)
    Speculation ? ‘today’, certainly - not back then. VZ “arguably socialist” ? then the LatAm socialist /populist experiment has failed miserably. Chavez threw the bait, people bit…now they’re screwed. 7% of the population has fled the country in the last 2 yrs alone. As Jango was courting the USSR & China, it’s quite likely he would’ve adopted their policies, not some non-existent lighter version of communism.

    Law on remittance of profits, try : “Remessa de lucros : problema de Jango a Lula”, “memorial da democracia - Jango assina Lei de remessa de lucros”, “ aprovação da lei de remessa de lucros no governo Goulart...”; Law 4.131 signed ’62 due to a lobby by nationalists who didn’t want foreign competition - caused foreign investment to drop 40% in 1 year, ‘n stagnated the economy ; modified in ’64 by Law 4.390.

    The fact I voted for the 1st time in ’89 (Collor), did not lessen my interest in politics.
    “..won’t let immigrants be president” : part of Brazil’s paranoid heritage of ingrained nationalism.

    In ’61 the mixed parliamentary/presidential system was proposed specifically to ‘control’ the president, NOT the “people”, who historically have never had any real power anyway… so reduce what ? How the parliamentary system works has never been properly explained to the “people” - all they heard were negative opinions fm politicians who, for personal reasons didn’t want it, so how could it work ? discussing it with my friends, they all favored it, but today it’s unlikely Congress will propose another referendum.
    “..or anything that looked vaguely like it such as reforms to help the poor, and secondly because they wanted to stay in power..” Boy, have you been brainwashed !! The military's increase in nbrs of Congressmen fm the N & NE sounds like trying to improve popular representation. The NE oligarchs appeared during that period, and are still there. Yes, accounting. All free, but not the MBA.

    Aug 24th, 2018 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Your 1st article gives a very different impression of Goulart, saying he was hesitant by nature and loathed difficult situations, and tried to avoid either signing or vetoing the law. (Also, “não entrando em bola dividida”, whatever that means.)

    Plus what Jango said: “Tomorrow, I will regulate your law. I feel, however, that I may be signing my deposition.” Appears he was right. Did Lula ever try to regulate the remittance of profits?

    Re the 2nd article, interesting that it says investments fell in 1963, though the law was postponed to 1964 by Jango. Must have been in anticipation as companies didn't want their money stuck in Brazil.

    The next article on the same site was about the 1962 election, and says the PTB (Jango's party) increased its numbers and became the second largest. But these bits really surprised me:

    “The illiterates continued to be excluded from the right to vote, about 40% of the population.” - so much for fair elections.

    “The elections of 1962 were also important because, for the first time, the electors chose the parliamentarians using the official ballot given in the voting booth by the Electoral Justice, in reverse of previous lawsuits, in which the voter received a ballot given by the parties - often already filled - before the vote.”

    Seriously? WTF were they thinking?

    ”The fact I voted for the 1st time in ’89 (Collor)“

    I thought you got citizenship earlier than that? And you voted for Collor, who then froze your accounts? How ungrateful of him!

    ”part of Brazil’s paranoid heritage of ingrained nationalism.“

    Really? Isn't it one of the bits they ripped from the US constitution? All the Lat Am countries seem to have this rule.

    ”Boy, have you been brainwashed”

    Compare McCarthyism in the US - there were real communists, but it became a witch hunt. And it's obvious that any really popular opposition leader could be a threat to the military's power, no matter what they stood for, especially as the former continued to hold elections.

    Aug 27th, 2018 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    “Não entrando em bola dividida”: fm soccer, meaning “not going for a divided ball’ or, backing out when push comes to shove.
    The 1st article (2008) implied Lula saw no need to try to change the law. The drop in investments in ’63 was indeed due to the law.
    Despite the fact Jango, 'n the 1st military president shared the opinion that illiterates should have the right to vote, how to do it in the 60s, with no reliable way to inform them ?
    Eventually in 85, when illiteracy had dropped fm 25 to 8% of the adult population, they got the right. The so-called parliamentary system imposed on Jango to allow him to take power, besides being a somewhat hybrid version, never had a chance, ‘n submitting it to popular vote, where few understood its advantages (over presidential system), was bound to be defeated.
    The ’62 election (Congress ‘n some governors) was indeed an improvement over previous ones - where the parties were able to induce voters to fraud. Typical of Brazil’s backwardness.
    I became a Bzln in ’82, but didn’t vote in the 1985 election as it was ‘indirect’- president chosen by Congress.
    Don’t know if the historical reason for not allowing immigrants to run for president came fm the US Constitution, but it’s pretty typical of the then Brazilian politicians’ false belief that most things foreign represented a threat to nat’l security…time has shown the threat has always been ‘internal’.
    Look, the military took power as an alternative to the perceived threat in 1963/64; they had no big dreams of implementing or perpetuating a bloody dictatorship ; the idea that they were in it for the long haul, is simply not true… things evolved/escalated according to the circumstances, and although they believed the civilians would screw things up again, they still handed back power voluntarily. And in the last 33 years, what've we seen ? politicians with little or no commitment to their constituents, taking power for the sake of power, 'n using corruption to perpetuate it.

    Aug 28th, 2018 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    From that description, doesn't sound at all like Jango was a revolutionary who would turn Brazil communist. Rather, if it happened it would have been because he didn't resist the pressure from people around him.

    I wasn't sure what the article was saying about Lula; besides google translate isn't perfect (though it is often funny, eg calling Dilma 'he', and Lula 'it'). Lula never even suggested such a law, then?

    Weren't there radios in the 60s, to inform those who couldn't read? And cinemas that could also play adverts and news bulletins? I read that nowadays all parties have a number assigned to enable illiterate people to vote for them, that's not high technology.

    “I became a Bzln in ’82”

    That's later than I thought, long after you were working. Does that mean you had to get a work permit etc, or was there no need back then? And didn't you at least get to vote for congress in '85? What about local elections? Here EU citizens can also vote in those, but I don't suppose Brazil has any similar arrangement, unless it's with Portugal (and Portugal was also a dictatorship until 1974).

    “time has shown the threat has always been ‘internal’”

    Guess it depends if you believe the military were supported by the US, or the revolutionaries by the USSR and Cuba. But it does seem Brazil has suffered more internal upheaval than threats from the outside, like most Lat Am countries.

    I don't think the military necessarily planned to stay in power all that time, but they still did so. Sure, they were reacting to circumstances, but to a large extent they created those circumstances themselves. I doubt any government, no matter how well intentioned, can stay in power for a prolonged time without using repressive measures.

    Aug 28th, 2018 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “...doesn't sound at all like Jango was a revolutionary...”
    Before I'd read to the end, I knew how you'd conclude your thought....being hesitant ('n weak ?) he could've been easily influenced.
    Don't think Lula would've tried anything that wouldn't increase his popularity....and if at the time, the remittances weren't causing problems, why meddle with them?

    Sure there were radios ; I remember there was an obligatory transmission by the official government radio station, called “A voz do Brasil”, a nightly pill (leftover from the 'Vargas' era), which rambled on every night, from 7 to 8 pm, about the government's achievements ...but no party propaganda (as today)....as soon as it came on, everyone switched the radio off. There were news bulletins in cinemas, covering football, and of course, the wondeful things government was doing...but the poor (illiterates) were hardly movie goers.
    Yeah, today every party has its number...with 32 parties, you need them (LOL).

    Every worker, regardless of whether a foreigner or not, needed a “work register booklet” (had plenty of pages), in which employers were supposed to register your work contract, salary etc...it was your proof that guaranteed your rights. .
    The 1985 election was only for president 'n some governors. Don't think there were any local elections btwn '82 and '85.
    40 or 50 years ago, whenever the economy faltered for any reason, the government always looked for some external cause to blame - usually the US, because if the US sneezed Brazil caught the flu...the government never owned up to its own mistakes, besides, it was easier to shift blame elsewhere...today that's a bit more difficult to get away with.

    “to a large extent they created those circumstances themselves” ...Don't most govts ??
    The US backed our military, as the USSR 'n Cuba did the revolutionaries, but the US's support of the military was not so obvious at the time, while the connection btwn Cuba 'n the revolutionaries was.

    Aug 29th, 2018 - 05:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Do you remember what your view of Jango was at the time? I suppose it probably was altered by what happened afterwards, though.

    The article made it sound like the remittances were still causing problems, but I daresay Lula wouldn't want to touch them, especially as he was trying to calm the fears of business and industry at the start of his term.

    “a nightly pill”

    Lol, I remember now reading someone else's account of that, and they also said everyone turned the radio off the minute it came on. From what I have heard, going to the cinema was much cheaper and vastly more common before everyone had TVs, and even poor people went quite regularly, but I suppose that doesn't really compare to the poverty in Brazil. Tho if they were that poor, how were the ones who could read supposed to afford even a newspaper to inform themselves? How much did a newspaper cost back then, compared to a cinema ticket?

    “Don't think there were any local elections btwn '82 and '85.”

    I'm surprised, I thought with state governments as well as the federal one you'd have more elections in Brazil. In the US they seem to elect every post, right down to dogcatcher, and no one can be bothered.

    If the US's support of the military was not obvious at the time, doesn't that mean people *under*estimated the foreign threat? It's difficult because the actions of other countries really do have a big influence, but it's also easy for those in charge to blame them and wriggle out of responsibility.

    “Don't most govts ??”

    Yes, but most don't create such bad ones. Compare the colonial governments fighting against independence movements. Someone else started the violence, but the government in place created the situation and maintained it.

    Aug 29th, 2018 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    I remember Janio being elected in 1960. I wasn’t really into politics at the time, but when he abruptly resigned, I remember most people we knew saying it was not good. When the political situation started to deteriorate under Jango, people were becoming afraid of what could happen.

    I wasn’t involved in family finances back then, so wasn’t really aware of the cost of living, but we received the “Estadão” (newspaper) on our doorstep every morning. The poor didn’t buy serious papers, and by what I remember (our house maids), not many could read or write.

    Without TV, and even when it became accessible, it was so shitty, movies ‘were’ popular, amongst those who could afford it...I don't remember seeing the poor flocking to see Hollywood's latest productions. There were no cinemas in the poor suburbs, and most cinemas, in the centre of town required you wear a coat ‘n tie.

    Perhaps just a coincidence that in btwn ‘82/’85 there were no elections....had there been (for State legislature, mayor, aldermen) am sure I would’ve voted.

    In 1963/4, don’t suppose the common man in the street had much idea of what was going on, far less capable of under or overestimating the threat. Or possible implications.

    Governments never have full control of the circumstances, despite all the planning that is supposed to happen in order to avoid surprises, so as they go dealing with the situations, other consequences are bound to appear. In hindsight it’s easy to say what they should have done, but at the time, with so much happening, and going wrong, it couldn’t have been easy to foresee/ control events.
    “but most don't create such bad ones”…why “bad”?, especially in comparison to what ‘might’ have occurred ?
    What happened 200 yrs ago (independence movements) is history, ‘n today is easily understood, or justified. What happened only 60 years ago, (cold war) still needs to be analyzed ‘n understand for what it really was, once ‘emotions’ have worn off..

    Aug 30th, 2018 - 02:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    If you had a newspaper subscription, I guess you wouldn't know the price of a single edition. And I'm sure you never had to do a paper round to get pocket money. It must be weird as a child to master a basic skill like reading and then know adults who couldn't do it. Honestly, I don't know how anyone gets by in the modern world without being able to read. What did they do about the 'work register booklet'? Just let their employer write whatever and not be able to check it was correct?

    RE TV, do you mean the TV itself was poor quality, or the programmes were rubbish? I can't imagine wearing a tie to go to the cinema, did that apply to teengers, too? But everyone dressed like that back then; they showed pictures of the immigrants arriving on the Windrush and I was amazed how smartly they were dressed, all in suits and ties, and hats. You don't see Jamaicans or anyone looking like that now.

    I looked up the SP governor, and Franco Montoro was elected in 1982 so you must have just missed voting, and then he was in office until 1987. Surely you could have applied for citizenship earlier than that, since you'd lived in Brazil most of your life?

    “Governments never have full control of the circumstances”

    True. And some of them have an easier time than others.

    “why “bad”?”

    Armed resistance is pretty bad, and certainly seemed to be worsened if not started as a reaction to the coup and other repressive measures.

    I learned about the cold war at school, though not events in Brazil, and it was analysed like any history, despite the fact many people still alive had lived through it all, and the Berlin wall had fallen within our own lifetimes. So does it really make much difference?

    Aug 30th, 2018 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “And I'm sure you never had to do a paper round to get pocket money”....right, but I enjoyed doing odd jobs around the house and garden to get a bit of money to spend....I travelled a lot by ship, to and from Argentina mainly, so I got to know most of the Captains and some of the crew...on one particular ship, I used to get up at 6 am and polish all the brass in the main lounge...it gave me the right to free drinks at the bar.

    Don't recall any problems with the filling out of the work contracts....and I suppose that if the worker thought he was being diddled, he could always resort to someone for help.

    The actual TV transmissions were bad - the image wasn't great, and it had the habit of moving up and down, having to adjust the antenna all over the place to try to fix it...and the programmes, with the exception of a few US series, were mostly rubbish.
    When I was about 12, one of my father's friends took me and his sons to the cinema...we got there and were barred from entering. True, the dress code in town back then was more formal than today.

    I could have applied earlier, but never thought of it... only decided to after my parents did...the 'disadvantages' of being a foreigner were of no importance.

    The armed resistance was already in the making before the military took over...it intensified when they took over...so I'd say it was the military who 'reacted'...

    Brazil obviously, was not directly involved in the cold war, but the US had no intention of allowing USSR's influence in their back yard...same way as Russia today uses the surrounding countries as a type of shield.
    In the middle of it all, no one knew how far the US or the USSR would go to guarantee their objectives...in 1962 the Cuban missile crisis was an example of this uncertain threat, and no one took it lightly....not even in Brazil.

    Aug 30th, 2018 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “it gave me the right to free drinks at the bar.”

    When you were a child?!

    “the 'disadvantages' of being a foreigner were of no importance.”

    Right. If it was never a problem there's no reason you'd think of it. I guess it just seems odd to me; during all this time you had a Canadian(?) passport, but you'd never lived in Canada, so what country was 'home' to you?

    “so I'd say it was the military who 'reacted'”

    To some degree, but they certainly seem to have made it a lot worse. That's part of the reason for democracy: if you let people have their say at the ballot box they're less likely to resort to force, and if you allow free speech they easily find out whether people support them or not.

    As for the cold war, yeah, both superpowers tried to control their neighbours, and it wasn't good for either group. I wonder who was worse off, Eastern Europe or Latin America? The Cuban missile crisis certainly was included in our history course, it's probably the closest the world has ever come to full-on nuclear war.

    Aug 31st, 2018 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    I was 12 or 13, and they were soft drinks…but I got in an occasional a gulp of beer (behind the door of the ‘galley’ bar).
    Think it was ’87 when I applied for my Canadian passport …for good or bad, at the time I had a good job ‘n believed the saying that Brazil would be the “country of the future”…perhaps I should have taken it more literally.

    “but they certainly seem to have made it a lot worse”….in your opinion, not in mine. You know what you read, and if it talks badly of the military, very likely from sources with left-wing bias…as far as I was concerned, it was better than the possible alternative. But there's no point in discussing the sex of the angels, or what might or might not have been, as events were influenced by the reality of 60 years ago, and have to be seen within that context.

    As far as ‘letting people have their say at the ballot box’ is concerned, the Brazilians (imo) are not particularly civic-minded people…they were never, until recently, turned on by politics, so not voting was not a big deal…and many were happy they didn’t have to.
    Rather suddenly (nearer the end of the military regime) they woke up ‘n started to protest - perhaps only because they were ‘reminded’ that they didn’t have the ‘right’ to vote - something not too high on their priority list.

    Those that resorted to force were not significant, number wise.

    Regarding who was better off during the cold war, Eastern Europe or Latin America, I think, probably Latin America. But today, I’d say that Eastern Europe is better off, because (IMO), when the communists took over, EEU was more advanced socially speaking than Latin America, and when they managed to free themselves after 70 years, being more united ‘n more aware of what they wanted, made them better prepared to go forward.
    You studied the cold war at school, the difference being that I saw it while it was happening.

    Aug 31st, 2018 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “they were soft drinks…but I got in an occasional a gulp of beer”

    That's okay, then. It must have been fun getting to travel, especially in a ship, and I'm impressed you got up at 6am voluntarily. But you must have had some passport to do the travelling, don't tell me you have 3 citizenships? I'm already jealous enough you can speak three languages.

    ”the Brazilians (imo) are not particularly civic-minded people“

    Certainly Brazil is more famous for carnivals, beaches and football, but it's good they are getting more interested in politics. It's obvious the politicians have been taking everyone for a ride for far too long. What triggered the protests? Did something change?

    ”Those that resorted to force were not significant, number wise.“

    Neither are the terrirists in the UK now, but they can still do a lot of damage psychologically.

    It's interesting who was better off, because the EEur countries were probably more developed than Brazil before communism, and although they grew much more slowly that WEur, I don't think they ever had the same kind of poverty. Latin America would have had more rights, except under some of the military governments, though I think unlike the communists they never stopped people leaving - if they could find somewhere to go. EEur did suffer a lot with the end of communism, though, and joining the EU is what led many to an economic recovery.

    ”You studied the cold war at school, the difference being that I saw it while it was happening.”

    I did see the end of it, I remember (I think) seeing the fall of the Berlin wall on the news as a child, though I probably didn't know it existed beforehand. And I saw the aftermath; the collapse of Yugoslavia into civil war and genocide, unrest and oligarchs ruling Russia, even the orphans in Romania. Of course, my parents didn't tell me about the risk of nuclear war at the time. Were people genuinely afraid it could be the end of the world during the Cuban missile crisis?

    Aug 31st, 2018 - 10:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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