Monday, August 9th 2010 - 07:26 UTC

Gibraltar: Between a Rock and a hard place

La Linea de la Conception is a small Spanish town on the North side of the border with Gibraltar. The fascist dictator Francisco Franco sealed the frontier in 1969 to punish Gibraltar for rejecting his offer of becoming part of Spain.

La Linea’s mayor, Alejandro Sánchez

The border was not fully reopened again until 1985, almost ten years after Spain's transition to democracy. Prior to that many Gibraltarians lived in Spain and Gibraltar’s dockyard provided thousands of jobs for the people of La Linea.

The closure brought hardship to Gibraltar, but even more to the Spanish town where unemployment was rife. Fast forward to 2010, when Gibraltar has a booming economy based on tourism and the Internet rather than the military base and again provides thousands of jobs to Spaniards struggling with the recession, and massive unemployment.

A recent report by Dr John Fletcher of Bournemouth University showed Gibraltar provided 18% of the total 102,468 jobs in the adjoining area, and that Gibraltarians spent some 63 million pounds in Spain in 2007.

But times are hard for La Linea’s mayor, Alejandro Sánchez, he cannot afford to pay council workers, who are protesting in the streets. Quite what became of the towns money is a mystery, the former mayor resigned and was arrested. But the new mayor has a solution, in third word countries when the police are not paid; they set up a road block and charge passers by. Envious of the prosperity the other side of the border Sánchez plans to extort a toll from tourists crossing the national border. He says Gibraltar residents, like those of La Linea and frontier workers, would be exempt from any charge.

Of course the Spanish Government has other ideas, as does the EU regarding freedom of movement, but despite being summoned to Madrid by Miguel Angel Moratinos and told not to, the mayor is adamant that he will introduce it. All the cars leaving Gibraltar would be required to drive through his toll gate. He was also reprimanded for ordering the local police force to halt vehicles crossing into Spain and carry out document checks, an act that caused long delays and was labelled as “harassment” by Gibraltar's government. This was seen as a ‘trial run’ to see how his Government would react.

Another ‘bright idea’ is to try and tax telephone lines which he says pass through his town and are used by successful offshore betting companies based in Gibraltar, like William Hill and Ladbrokes.

Sanchez, a member of the right-wing Popular Party claims that the socialist government in Madrid has sacrificed the town of La Linea's interests, favouring Gibraltar, to ensure good relations with Britain. The ‘favours’ obtained under the 2006 Cordoba agreement included Spain promising not to obstruct traffic at the frontier and to stop blocking telephone calls and flights.

The association representing Spanish workers in Gibraltar ASCTEG are strongly against his move, and in a press release say that “12 thousand mouths eat from wages earned on the Rock and nobody should interfere with the border”

The new rearrangements will be begin as from this week, Sanchez has said, and that the move was “not a bluff” Quite apart from the controversy of charging visitors, the process of checking cars on their way out could slow down frontier traffic and cause tailbacks into Gibraltar.

“It would create a gridlock,” one senior official said

Gibraltar was seized by the British in 1704, and ceded by Spain in 1713. Anglo-Spanish attempts to push the idea of co-sovereignty were overwhelmingly rejected by the Gibraltarians in a 2002 referendum.

Since 2006, with the creation of the Tripartite Forum for Dialogue, the governments of Spain, Britain and Gibraltar have sought to build a framework of co-operation to improve the life of those who live and work in Gibraltar and the Spanish towns across the border.

By Jim Watt – Gibnet.com- Gibraltar

 

126 comments Feed

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1 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 07:57 am Report abuse
What's the fuzz all about?

Congestion charge Zones exist in London, Rome Stockholm etc etc etc...

Nothing “Third world” about that! :-)
2 harrier61 (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:07 am Report abuse
Hope Spain tries to use that one before the European Court. But it won't have to. Senor Sanchez' days are numbered.
3 Hoytred (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:16 am Report abuse
Congestion charges are designed to reduce congestion, not increase it.

The important bit - “ ... The closure brought hardship to Gibraltar, but even more to the Spanish town where unemployment was rife...”

Shooting oneself in the foot .... is it a spanish thing?
4 stick up your junta (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:16 am Report abuse
You are such a dick think,why dont you think,congestion charge? the clue is in the name,it is to ease congestion in the city and to encourage people to use public transport,money raised is put in to the public transport system,the Spanish system will be highway robberyvery third world.
5 Cadfael (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:19 am Report abuse
Sad bu66er, The Rock used to be a nice place when I was a kid.
6 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:28 am Report abuse
La Linea is a sh1thole. It's not surprising nobody stops there on their way to and from Gibraltar. And this idiotic idea will not happen, but in true Spanish fashion it will only be stopped once a fortune has been spent on rejigging the roads and building the stupid toll booth. The people of La Linea elected him so they deserve everything they get!
7 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 09:55 am Report abuse
Go Go Go Mayor Sanchez .
And remember:
The right of self-determination of the People of La Linea contains the territorial integrity of Spain or Britain.
A recent ICJ ruling gives you and your Beautiful and Noble town the right to do exactly what you are doing.
The wishes of the townspeople of La Linea are paramount!
8 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 10:31 am Report abuse
Erm, a bit confused Think.

I completely agree the Linenses have a right to self determination and I think a lot of people would support them if they decided to secede.

However for the time being La Linea is part of Spain and for the time being La Linea has to abide by Spanish and EU law - which means freedom of movement so toll at the frontier would be illegal.
9 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 11:30 am Report abuse
No secession necessary!

The noble and heroic people of the magnificent town of La Linea prefers, of course, to continue their free association with the Kingdom of Spain.:-))))

But their traffic regulatory needs, interests and wishes must be respected by all foreigners wishing to cross their sovereign territory. :-))))

Road tolls do not infringe in any way Spanish or European Legislation. Most Highways and Bridges in Europe apply them :-))))

And in addition, as in Arizona (USA), Local Police should be given the legal tools to stop and identify any possible illegal aliens. One cannot be too careful these days :-))))

If that represents a problem for anybody, they can always agree with the Spanish National Authorities to build an alternative road outside the municipal boundaries of La Linea :-))))
10 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 11:42 am Report abuse
You obviously have not thought about it Think.

A part of Spain can't be in free association with Spain. Either it's part of Spain or it's not. La Linea is part of Spain so Spanish and EU law apply.

If it was something to do with traffic/congestion in La Linea then why will the proposed toll booth be at the frontier? Why not at the entrances to the town?

None of the tolls on your highways, bridges or earlier mentioned city congestion zones charge people to cross a frontier, which is what Alcalde Alejo plans to do. This is illegal in the EU. He'll soon find out, but not before all the roads in La Linea have been rerouted and the toll booth built. More money wasted on another hair-brained scheme. Why not just make La Linea a nice place to go, instead of the rat-infested dump that it is, people might actually stop and spend their money...
11 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 12:06 pm Report abuse
Go Go Go Sanchez
Best initiative in a long time in respect of Gibraltar.......
Maybe the National Government can get inspired by some of your great ideas.:-))))
I f you need a picket.... remember, there are millions of Argentines living in Spain... and some luuuuuuuuuuv to picket :-))))

You are a Pioneer, a Conquistador , our new right wing Iberian Cid Campeador :-))))
And remember the golden rule in modern politics: Bad exposure is better that No exposure :-))))
12 Hoytred (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 12:33 pm Report abuse
You appear to have lost it Think .. that brick wall starting to hurt?

And I've said this before ... it'll never get better if you pick it!

The spanish workers of La Linea will be the ones to suffer. They know it and I somehow doubt that this mayor will manage re-election.

The rock will still be there, and like the Falklands, it'll still be British!
13 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 12:44 pm Report abuse
About Sanchez reelection.....
On the Contrary young one......
If he plays his cards right and with a little bit of luck.... he can be on the way to greater things.
Let's watch this fellow and see who is right...
14 harrier61 (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 02:19 pm Report abuse
Anyway, what fun! Especially when Gibraltar closes the border to Spanish workers. That'll be around 18,500 Spaniards out of work! ASCTEG will be pleased that 12,000 mouths won't be fed!
15 Marco (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 02:54 pm Report abuse
Many of the World conflicts and territorial disputes, like Gibraltar and Malvinas Argentinas, in the past and nowadays is directly linked with a common reason: wherever the British put their paws on.
16 stick up your junta (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 03:07 pm Report abuse
Of course Argentina gets along great with its neighbours no terrotorial disputes, you all get along fine.
what a N*b u r
17 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 03:40 pm Report abuse
Well....... nobody cares.
Where the f*** is Gibraltar anyway?
This “news” has not been mentioned “at all” in the Spanish press.
As a matter of fact, other than Gibraltar the only place in the world that has mentioned this story is:............. MercoPress. :-)
18 stick up your junta (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 04:00 pm Report abuse
Where the f*** is Gibraltar anyway

I cant seem to locate the Malvinas either
19 Marco (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 04:03 pm Report abuse
Stick, You can't locate Malvinas because you don't know what a map is and is far far away from your little kingdom in Europe.
20 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 04:20 pm Report abuse
:-)))))))
21 harrier61 (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:07 pm Report abuse
@15 Strangely, it seems to be where Spaniards believe they are “important”. At least present day Spaniards aren't stupid enough to call the territory something else. But then if you were sending colonists to the other side of the world, you send the dregs, right? And they did!! Dregs the, dregs now!!
22 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:08 pm Report abuse
“This “news” has not been mentioned “at all” in the Spanish press.”

Oh really Thunk? It's been big news in my local paper, and has made the nationals too...

www.elpais.com/articulo/andalucia/Geopolitica/barrio/elpepiespand/20100809elpand_7/Tes

www.abc.es/videos-nacional/20100809/peaje-gibraltar-490910910001.html

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/758580/sanchez/anuncia/la/reordenacion/trafico/la/frontera/para/implantar/peaje.html

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/756085/alcalde/aclara/peaje
/sera/para/los/vehiculos/visitantes.html

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/751939/gobierno/advierte/peaje/anunciado/por/alcalde/es/ilegal.html

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/750895/alcalde/la/linea/quiere/cobrar/peaje/quienes/entren/gibraltar.html

And why this toll all of a sudden? Is it the “congestion” or is really because of corruption and incompetence. La Linea is bankrupt!

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/751211/la/plantilla/municipal/sigue/sin/cobrar/la/nomina.html

www.elpais.com/articulo/andalucia/alcalde/Linea/dice/podra/pagar/nominas/enero/elpepiespand/20100807elpand_9/Tes

www.europasur.es/article/lalinea/756775/psoe/afirma/peaje/servira/para/pagar/los/sueldos/municipales.html
23 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:21 pm Report abuse
Ja ja ja .... All local paper editions....
I don't cite the “Torquay Herald Express” do I?
24 stick up your junta (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
I don't cite the “Torquay Herald Express” do I?

You would cite the exchange and mart if it suited your argument twink
25 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:47 pm Report abuse
ABC and El Pais local papers? And you said it had not been mentioned “at all” in the “Spanish press”. I'm just proving, once again, that you don't operate in the real world, much like the rest of your “Malvinsta” friends...
26 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:50 pm Report abuse
Ja ja ja ...... Local paper editions. as I said ..... El Pais/Andalucia= Local edition
27 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:58 pm Report abuse
The whole of Andalucia is hardly “local” and ABC? Is that also “local”? I don't think so. Anyway, I gave you examples from the “Spanish press”, which you said had no mentioned the story “at all”.
28 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:00 pm Report abuse
Ja ja ja .........Look what I found at the South Devon Herald Express!
The honourable Sir GILES CHICHESTER, Conservative MEP for South West England and Gibraltar is in favor of the Road Toll !!!
www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/news/toll-road-cure-bypass-frustration/article-2340724-detail/article.html
29 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:03 pm Report abuse
The whole of Andalucia is hardly “local” and ABC? Is that also “local”? I don't think so. Anyway, I gave you examples from the “Spanish press”, which you said had no mentioned the story “at all”.
30 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:08 pm Report abuse
Well....... nobody cares.
Where the f*** is Gibraltar anyway?
This “news” has not been mentioned “at all” in the Spanish press.
As a matter of fact, other than Gibraltar the only place in the world that has mentioned this story is:............. MercoPress. :-)
31 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
You need glasses Twinky, or more English lessons, because Giles Chichester is in favour of a road toll but not the one at the frontier between Spain and Gibraltar...
32 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:37 pm Report abuse
I never said WICH Road Toll he was in favour... Did I????

:-)))))))
33 stick up your junta (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:46 pm Report abuse
Thinks mental health is taking it's toll
34 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 07:01 pm Report abuse
Given the context it was obvious Twinky...
35 Think (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 07:12 pm Report abuse
Obvious for a Sound Simple British mind like yours... Correct :-))))
36 Marco (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 10:28 pm Report abuse
Interesting article about if UK could re-take the islands if need. You'll also see some comments on it from famous philosofer Hoytred...

Consider these comments from Captain Michael Clapp who participated in the 1982 conflict:
So as as the sound of political sabre rattling returns to the South Atlantic, could we repeat that success today? I’m not doubting the resolve of our armed forces – our soldiers, sailors and airmen have a long and proud track record of plucking success from adversity – but I’m sorry to say that we no longer have the ships and equipment to launch a sea-borne attack on an enemy on the other side of the world.

thevelvetrocket.com/2010/02/21/could-britain-re-take-the-falkland-islands-again-its-not-1982-anymore/
37 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 10:30 pm Report abuse
Who ever said I was British Twinky?
38 briton (#) Aug 09th, 2010 - 11:07 pm Report abuse
the way you guys AGAIN slag of other peoples like Gibraltar, and you wonder WHY the Falklanders want nothing to do with you,
for your information the gibraltarians , thus the British will always have the upper hand, and has the power to , not only close the boarder again, [causing hardship to the Spanish] but also to re route all transmissions, again only the Spanish would suffer, but im sure the European court will stop this long before it gets anywhere out of control,
and the Falklands will still be British, and the Malvinas confined to the beano comic.
39 Ann Other (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 12:12 am Report abuse
Its quite academic to speculate on the British 'retaking' the Falklands as we are there already. Although the British naval forces are fewer in number, the Argentine Navy is a total joke. Given better surveillance by satellite, how many nuclear submarines do you think it would take to put an invasion force at the bottom of the sea? Britain has plenty and they are ready.

So Marco, the question is how many Argentines are prepared to die for the cause? Let us know and we can help.
40 Marco (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 04:25 am Report abuse
Ann, Thanks but we do not need your help, we saw how your forces failed in Irak and failing in Afghanistan.
You are forgetting one major difference between now and then. The Argentines now have the support of all of South America and much or the Western world. Argentinas ex President is now head of the South America Political alliance and one of the Worlds Super Powers is now very much behind Argentines claim. Whatever way you look at it there claim is a valid one. One way to avoid another war might be for Argentina to buy it off the British. They certainly need the moeny.
41 Hoytred (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 06:02 am Report abuse
I didn't know we had subs in Iraq and Afghanistan .... wow!

Marco - which world super power are you refering to? China? Unlikely as they have a specific policy to stay out of other people's business. The U.S.? Not so, they'll stay well away. Russia? Do they still count as a power? .... now what's left?

However you look at it your claim is a non-starter. Historically valueless, politically a no hoper and de facto the islands are British. Delude yourself if you wish but there's less than a snowball's chance in hell of your claim impressing anyone capable or willing to do anything about it.

And our begging bowls are richer than Argentina!

Your grasp on reality ain't good boy!
42 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:27 am Report abuse
I respectfully disagree with......... all your points :-)

1) British Submarines are everywhere..... You just can’t see them...... :-) Very Astute!

2) China is backing Argentina more and more.... But not in writing.... :-) They are very Astute!

3) Our “no starter” claim, as you call it, is already good on its way and advancing in mastodontic leaps.... :-) You are not very Astute!

4) Do you have Begging Bowls in Great Britain?... And using nearly 3% of your GDP in guns?.... :-) That’s not very Astute!

5) And don’t try to divert the attention from Mr. Alejandro Sánchez.... He is the Hero of this thread... :-) HE is quite Astute!
43 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:52 am Report abuse
The plan will have to go through a process that will take some 60 days. .
The Spanish workers in Gibraltar, through their association, are adamantly against the plan and fear for their jobs. There are 10,000 unemployed in La Linea, a town of some 65,000 inhabitants.
The whole thing is considered to be discriminatory and against European Union rules on the freedom of movement.

That good old socialist Alejandro Sánchez, got F***k all and wants to share it
44 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:00 am Report abuse
Ja Ja Ja .....
You people can not cite other than Local Gibraltarian papers...

And the HERO OF THE WEEK; Sr. Alejandro Sanchez is YOUNG AND CONSERVATIVE
JA Ja JA
45 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:03 am Report abuse
CONSERVATIVE

with a big C
46 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:13 am Report abuse
Sticky, one thing Alcalde Alejo definitely is not is a socialist!

He's one of this lot:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Party_(Spain)
47 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:21 am Report abuse
www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=18267

Left or right who cares
48 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:26 am Report abuse
ALEJANDRO'S idea nr. 56:
A 1.000 € decongestion charge on every lorry carrying stones and building materials into Gibraltar.

www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=19719
49 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:33 am Report abuse
Spiteful
50 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:42 am Report abuse
Spiteful, exactly. And the spawn of Franco...
51 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 10:46 am Report abuse
Exactely, that the best part of it.....
he is one of yours :-)))))))
52 Hoytred (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:03 am Report abuse
Sorry Think .. your claim is still a non-starter. I didn't know very much about the UN before I got onto this site, but the more I read the more hopeless that I recognise that your case is.

as for the Spanish mayor, well this sort of action will stand him in good stead if he has more national plans. Typically with bloody politicians he'll walk away when it suits his career amd leave the spanish locals to suffer the consequences. And there will be consequenses. All the Rockers have to do is put up another toll booth on their side and charge the spanish workers!

Only 3% on guns .... not enough :-)
53 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:13 am Report abuse
UN is a fascinating place........ Nothing ever happens....... and suddenly.......... KAPOWWWW
Don’t be fooled by it’s sweet looks.... Its’s nearly as complicated as a Spanish woman :-)
And please, please go ahead....... Charge toll on your side too..... That would give some momentum to this rather “local” situation.
54 Hoytred (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:17 am Report abuse
“ ... KAPOWWWW...” ??

Get out of here! The UN haven't got a KAPOWWWW in them!

No chance, no hope ... how are you getting on with that brick wall? And by the way there seems to be a shortage of news. How's the blockade working out?
55 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:25 am Report abuse
What blockade.........that's too expensive......
Wordckade is working perfectly well and its cheap :-)))
56 Hoytred (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:30 am Report abuse
As you said, it's down to the numbers ... and the number is 192 ..... so, how are you doing? Guaranteed I mean :-)
57 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 11:37 am Report abuse
The million dollars question........
58 harrier61 (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 02:06 pm Report abuse
The ferry from Algeciras goes nowhere near La Linea before docking in Gibraltar. No tolls for tourists FLYING in to Gibraltar. As Franco found out, trying to “blockade” Gibraltar doesn't work. As for building materials? Well, North Africa is quite close. Less than 15 miles. So Gibraltar can ship it in rather than using little Spanish trucks. More bad news for Spain!!
59 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 04:43 pm Report abuse
No ferry from Algeciras to Gibraltar:-)))))
No ferry from Algeciras to Gibraltar:-)))))
Did I remember to tell you that there is no ferry from Algeciras to Gibraltar?
:-)))))
60 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
Here you go Think. Next time you want to get from Algeciras to Gibraltar on the ferry, you can book here:
www.transcomalines.com/
61 Billy Hayes (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 07:02 pm Report abuse
well, that´s not a ferry, that´s only a boat, a ferry is a boat in wich you can carry your car so you can evade the toll, this is not the case.
Two nice options, drive your car and pay the toll or take the boat and walk.
62 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
Stand and deliver, Alejandro Sánchez the highwayman
www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=19672
63 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 08:50 pm Report abuse
Ja Ja Ja Drive to Algeciras.... Find a parking place ....Pay 10€ for the day... Walk to the boat... Pay 8€ for the trip.... Smaaaaart
64 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:07 pm Report abuse
Why would you need a car in Gibraltar?
65 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:16 pm Report abuse
Ja Ja Ja.... British intelligence........ Drive to La Linea.... Find a parking place ....Pay 15 € for the day.. Walk to Gibraltar.....

Then you don't need to pay the 5 € Congestion Charge.......

Brillant Stick up.... You solved the problem
66 Billy Hayes (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:20 pm Report abuse
here is the solution to evade the toll

www.clarin.com/internet/primer-volador-saldra-venta-marzo_0_298770350.html
67 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:20 pm Report abuse
Why would you need a car in Gibraltar?
www.gomarbella.com/costadelsolbuses/bus-from-marbella--to-gibraltar.htm
68 Think (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:28 pm Report abuse
Ja Ja Ja ....... I have got a British idea.... Let's all hitchhike..... Or we could run the distance... like Forrest Gump!
69 stick up your junta (#) Aug 10th, 2010 - 09:30 pm Report abuse
now you are being silly twink
and if you look around it aint that expensive to park in La Linea

www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-9585.aspx
70 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 07:58 am Report abuse
Billy, ferries are usually boats you pillock, and they don't have to carry cars.

A quote from Twinky: “there is no ferry from Algeciras to Gibraltar”
I love proving Twinky and his little nabo friends wrong.
71 Think (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 08:07 am Report abuse
Uhhhhhhhhh.... I have been proved wrong!..... What great dishonor!.... I will have to commit Ike-bana!... (or was it Hara-Kiri :-)))))))

Ja Ja Ja..... Drive to Algeciras.... Find a parking place ....Pay 10 € for the day... (if you don't pay... you car will not be there on return:-))))... Walk to the BOAT (not a ferry)... Pay 10 € for the trip....

Smaaaaaart......
72 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 08:20 am Report abuse
Well if you lived in Algeciras you wouldn't have to drive there Twinky and if Algeciras was on the way to La Linea it would make sense to go from there. So wrong! And a ferry is by its very nature a boat, so WRONG again!
73 stick up your junta (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 08:32 am Report abuse
www.lodging-world.com/withparkingsearch.sp.andalucia._.algeciras.html

www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g293737-i9554-k1376612-Parking_algeciras-Tangier.html

Nothing is insurmountable twink

www.pocruises.com/Destinations/Gibraltar-Cruises/?gclid=CNLNkJCBsaMCFSMulAodRhQV4w
74 Think (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 08:54 am Report abuse
Geeeee guys
I am glad you are not my travel agents :-))))))
75 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 09:33 am Report abuse
I'm definitely glad you're not mine Twinky, you think that a ferry without cars can't be a ferry and that there is no ferry between Algeciras and Gibraltar. Sydney harbour is full of ferries going to and from Circular Quay. I wonder how many cars they take, and if they are boats or not?
76 stick up your junta (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 11:21 am Report abuse
I am glad you are not my travel agents

Think I have catered for all budgets, even poor Argentines.
77 Marco (#) Aug 11th, 2010 - 10:28 pm Report abuse
Talking about budgets...
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/7931465/RAF-to-shrink-to-World-War-One-levels.html
78 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 08:39 am Report abuse
Just as well we dont have Argie First world war kit
sped2work.tripod.com/camel.html

Four of these will keep the nasty Argies at bay
www.eurofighter.com/
79 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 11:53 am Report abuse
At least we have an air-force Marco...
80 NicoDin (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 01:28 pm Report abuse
Well the down size just has started and in a couple of years they will defend Britain with stones riding horses.

The 3er world is even closer day after day.

“If implemented, the cuts will mean that Britain will almost certainly depart the world stage as a major military power and become what military chiefs call a “medium-scale player”.”

Medium-sacale player, medium-sacale player... umm let’s say a crappy army like I’ve said several times.

Title ideas for a new book.
How to turn a Great Power into a Zimbabwe style banana republic learning from UK.
81 Hoytred (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 01:49 pm Report abuse
3rd world? Who do you think made the 3rd world the 3rd world?

Even as a medium scale player we could stuff a 3rd world nation like Argentina! But just for the record .... who'se armies will be stronger, better trained and better equipped?

There's 192 nations regocnised by the UN .... now start at the top, I'm interested to see how far down you'd place us!
82 Astute (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 01:52 pm Report abuse
@NicoDIN ha, another brainless comment from you, your airforce is a joke your main jet is a Pucará it uses turbines, ha. Your intercepter jet is about fifty years old, ha. 

The Royal air force on the other hand is one of the most advanced and powerful airforces in the world. Does Argentina or any other country in south America have any jet what is even near the Eurofighter Typhoon, no. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFZcF17GJk

Don't get me started on your pathetic excuse of an army.
83 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 03:23 pm Report abuse
What exactly is a “stones riding horse” DicoNim?

We've got a long way to go before until we plumb the depths Zimbabwe does, and we'll have to pass you on the way, but there's little chance of that anyway.

The only country I know of which has had a 1st world to 3rd world experience is the one which used to have the 4th largest economy on the planet... like the French used to say a long time ago: “riche comme un Argentin”... but not any more...
84 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 03:47 pm Report abuse
Poor economic policies and political instability contributed to Argentina's decline from its noteworthy position as the world's 10th wealthiest nation in 1913 to the world's 36th wealthiest in 1998. Argentina is the only wealthy country to experience so great a reversal in recent history, despite the involvement of the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
85 Marco (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
J.A. Roberts,“ at least we have an air force”
Are you sure? I heard things are so bad in your air force, that you are using parts from very old Argentine helicopter capture almost 30 years ago..
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/5849377/RAF-helicopter-built-using-half-of-chinook-captured-in-Falklands.html
86 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 04:30 pm Report abuse
You must have missed this bit Marco, in your hurry to score a point.

“An MOD spokesman said it was 'common practice' to use parts from other aircraft to maintain others.”

And if you knew anything about aircraft you would know that it is all about the “life” of a part, not its age.

Like I said, at least we still have an air-force.
87 harrier61 (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 04:41 pm Report abuse
MARCO. Understand your lot didn't like it when we replaced our Tornados with Typhoons. Would you like to see some more Typhoons?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQa0WSPQWZs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6pt6kRPJGk

You should watch these. They are soooo much better than Harriers!!
88 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 05:35 pm Report abuse
Argentine helicopter capture almost 30 years ago

And thank you very much for the gift Marco,waste not want not,your country should learn from that saying
89 Marco (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 05:36 pm Report abuse
RAF ia a piece of noisy sh.. airplanes, the best airforce in the world by far, we have to admit is USAF. RAF is just a nice name for a paper tiger.
I just imagine when Argentina and Chile refuse next time to permit flying over or landing when fogs gets tick in Malvinas, that happens quit often. Mother nature keeps your junk on land or running scare to mainland South America.
en.mercopress.com/2010/06/04/falklands-thick-fog-forces-two-raf-typhoons-and-tanker-to-land-in-punta-arenas
90 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 05:48 pm Report abuse
marco you are a tick
91 Marco (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 05:56 pm Report abuse
stick, can you used parts of our ancient helicopter to save your universities?
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7941191/Universities-face-biggest-cuts-since-Great-Depression.html
92 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:05 pm Report abuse
It is called living within your means,Argentina should try it
Anyway I left school at 16 didnt do me any harm
Stick Prisoner 4876290
Cell 22
Wandsworth
93 Marco (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:10 pm Report abuse
It is called you are broke.
94 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:14 pm Report abuse
It is called you are broke
Maybe but when we get into the state that is Argentina then I will worry
95 Marco (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
You are already there and still sinking out of control.
96 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:45 pm Report abuse
vdare.com/sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm

Well going by your IQ Marco your country should be on financial par with the Democratic Republic of the Congo
97 NicoDin (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 06:55 pm Report abuse
@Hoytred

“3rd world? Who do you think made the 3rd world the 3rd world?”

We are calling you the 3er world now and means countries getting poor and poor running by necons while having their citizen in complete ignorance thinking that they are a super power and rich while they are tuning into banana republics.

The former “3er world” term was coined by a French anthropologist for countries with independent policies not aligned with US or Russia and last until the end of the cold war.

So you now understand why we are calling you a 3er world country. Do you?

And about the strength of your army has to be tested, but after Afghanistan you seem very crappy.

@Astute
You have to test your Eurofighters in a real war and please don’t do it on froggy days.
@J.A. Roberts

Don’t worry you are just starting the long way to Zimbabwe 2 year ago UK was still a world power but today is an old start falling like rock. In a couple of years you will fall under Brazil and later you will be financially worse than us in 2001. But the difference is that Argentina is a rich country with a lot of resources we can fall a lot of times but we can recover and start again, again and again like phoenix.

But UK its not a rich country there is nothing left, not industries, natural resources, etc. just fancy accounting and a lot of external debt to pay.

@ stick up your junta

Don’t be so sure UK has declined more than Argentina you were the dominant power in the world and your stupidity turn you into a middle size country and falling to Africa standards.

Argentina never ruled the world as UK did but things are changing so faster that you cannot say what will happen tomorrow. The world is getting very interesting on these days. Don’t you think so?

BTW can you tell me how UK so advanced army lost in Afghanistan and Iraq I don’t get it. They don’t have even a proper army.

Do this tell you something or do you need more embarrassment?
98 stick up your junta (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 07:00 pm Report abuse
BTW can you tell me how UK so advanced army lost in Afghanistan and Iraq I don’t get it. They don’t have even a proper army.

We see you lot off from the Falklands, = Taliban better army than Argentina do you want more embarrassment
99 zethe (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 11:19 pm Report abuse
“The former “3er world” term was coined by a French anthropologist”
I love how you mention this now i've explained what the word means - He still uses it as derogative term to assess the wealth and power of nations.

“But UK its not a rich country there is nothing left, not industries, natural resources, etc. just fancy accounting and a lot of external debt to pay. ”
London by it's self makes almost double than the enite nation of Argentina per year.

“Don’t be so sure UK has declined more than Argentina”
Argentina has not declined, it was never strong.

“And about the strength of your army has to be tested, but after Afghanistan you seem very crappy.”
“BTW can you tell me how UK so advanced army lost in Afghanistan and Iraq I don’t get it. They don’t have even a proper army.”
last war the UK lost was the first boer War, Couple things that show your stupidity are a. We have not lost either war. The UN mandate for british forces in iraq was to train the iraq army untill the point they could run the city by itself, this was done, and we left, as per the UN mandate.

Afghanistan is still ongoing, i'll have to explain again because it seems that you cant quite grasp the fact that we arent fighting the iraq/afghan armies, we are training them, working WITH them. Try reading a bit, you might not make your self look like such a dimwit so often.
100 harrier61 (#) Aug 12th, 2010 - 11:46 pm Report abuse
Guys, guys, don't be so harsh. Argentines can't help being dimwits. It's because they're descended from the dregs of Spanish and Italian society in the 18th century. And, intellectually, they are still in the 18th century.
Now, as far as Gibraltar is concerned, the Spanish government has told Snr Sanchez that his proposals would contravene national and international EU law and refused him a permit to carry out any works aimed at impeding entry or exit from the Rock. Whatever Snr Sanchez says later, I bet he feels pretty silly right now. He certainly looks very silly. That should kill off his chances of re-election!
101 Hoytred (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 04:24 am Report abuse
I have a question, “ How long would the Argentine armed forces have lasted in either Iraq or Afganistan ” ?
102 Cadfael (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 06:33 am Report abuse
Until they ran out of loo-paper!!
103 NicoDin (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 07:03 am Report abuse
@ Zethe & Mates,

Losers always have a good explanation.

About your “London by it's self makes almost double than the enite nation of Argentina per year.”

Come one mate I thought you were more intelligent than that. Your “financial centre” that counts as the 90% of your GDP it is fancy accounting and belong to foreigner owners. Only produces some jobs and that’s all but on what cost?

Destruction of your industries, High inflated exchange rate currency, astronomical foreign debt, wars, low salaries, immigration, etc. do you need more?

And the most amazing things is that the hard earned quids that poor brits make with a lot of enforce to pay their taxes is used to save these “corpocretinations” that produce only debt.

Can you see why you are the 3er world? How many proofs do you need to understand your poor situation? And who owns your little country?

UK is a debt producer nation and when the party is over you and your descendent will have to pay the bill.
10 Trillions is a lot of money to be paid back even for 14 T US economy, UK is a negative equity mate.

I will be very scared of my future if I would be you mates.

But don’t worry mates you can always move to Morocco or Paraguay that have good health system according with WHO
104 stick up your junta (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 07:32 am Report abuse
I will be very scared of my future if I would be you mates

Well being scared comes pretty easy to you lot. we are made of sterner stuff, now run along and worry about your own third world car crash
105 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 08:15 am Report abuse
Oh, now Marco focuses on the apparently failing British universities. How about a few facts Marco:

The QS World University Ranking top 100 for 2009
Number of UK universities: 18
Number of ARG universities: zero

The HEEACT ranking top 50 for 2009
Number of UK universities: 4
Number of ARG universities: zero

The Webometrics top 500 for 2009
Number of UK universities: 35
Number of ARG universities: 1

The Jiao Tong Academic rankings top 500 for 2009
Number of UK universities: 152
Number of ARG universities: 1

NicoDimwit, you just display your ignorance. Did you know that 20% of the UK GDP is generated by manufacturing? Not to mention allied industries. Your assertion that is all about accounting is absolute crap. And as for Argentina rising like a phoenix, I'll believe it when I see it...
106 zethe (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 10:04 am Report abuse
“Come one mate I thought you were more intelligent than that. Your “financial centre” that counts as the 90% of your GDP it is fancy accounting and belong to foreigner owners. Only produces some jobs and that’s all but on what cost?”

London generates approximately 20% of the UK's GDP. not 90%.

“Can you see why you are the 3er world”
I keep telling you, there is no such thing. Continuing to use that term to insult a nation's wealth and power is just insulting your own nation, as you was classified as a third world country. But, again...There is no such thing as a third world country.
107 NicoDin (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 10:32 am Report abuse
@ Mr. Roberts

I never said how much is your industrial sector share in your GDP else I referred to what Zethe said about London. And what represents the 90% of the GDP close to a trillion USD of fancy accounting toxic assets hidden in balance sheets and debt restructuring counted as profits (Barclays for example).

If you present a balance sheet like they do you will be in jail by fraud. No other industry has the ability to make “Off-Balance Sheet Transactions” you can see a good introduction of the matter here by Frank Partnoy (Roosevelt Institute). They can pack again this rubbish and made SIVs to sell you again any time soon. I hope you are not an investor and you don’t know that? Do you?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpqYL_xEoVo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDKX6mFC9VM&feature=related

Now guess who was buying most of these SIVs, Credit SWAPs and fancy things?

Do you know UKI? I don’t see the ISDA willing to do that and you?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y9A0C45KZI&feature=channel

You talk about my ignorance? Wow! Mr. Roberts

First Its seems that I know more over UK than you mate and I resulted to be the ignorant umm very strange point of view. But why in the case you are right don’t knowing about UK turns me into and ignorant?
Since when UKI is an important subject to be taking into account?

And by the way Mr. Source of knowledge your industrial output it is not 20 is 23.7% at the moment and shrinking. If you found something made in UK call me because will be come rare vintage collective Items in the near future.

After all these ranks of Unies it is not reflected on your post I just wonder why?

Regards,

@zethe

Your figures are pretty old from 2004 published in 2005 when output was around $670 billions your GDP had shrunk industries and big retailers collapsed and you got a devaluation. adding your stimulus package and bailout to the city your dependence to the financial sector has dramatically increased. in 2004 London was 32% gdp and n
108 J.A. Roberts (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 10:43 am Report abuse
No NicoDim, London does not represent 90% of the UK's GDP. I don't know where you get your figures from but that is completely incorrect, it's not even in the ballpark! FYI Financial services represent about 53% of the UK's GDP.

As for off balance-sheet products. They are traded all over the world, not just in the UK. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

23.7% or 20%. Close enough for me. Much closer to reality than your 90%. And actually manufacturing output is on the increase.
www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=198

I think it's you who's looking just a little ignorant Mr NicoDin, and also a reflection of your “Unie”, which no doubt does not appear on a single ”top 50/100/500/whatever anywhere...
109 zethe (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 12:53 pm Report abuse
Again, nico moves away from facts, and into his oppinion.

“$670 billions your GDP had shrunk”
5.1%. In the first quater of this year, it raised 1.3%.

But let's just say the full 5.1% of 670 = 34.17. Around 635 billion.

Argentina's gdp - $310.065 billion. London still generates double the ammount of GDP argentina does.
110 harrier61 (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 02:54 pm Report abuse
But everything in Argentina is so cheeeeap!

Subsidised by the government from the money they stole by not paying their debts!
111 NicoDin (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 05:53 pm Report abuse
Ok ok ok I make a mistake is 50% not 90% I make the calculation from 900 bn made in London and I don’t know why I thought that your economy was 1 t perhaps your faster falling and all the woes and bad news from UK anticipate the future. Haha

Any way you are already cooked

And Zhethe is is not the GDP of Argentina this is from CIA fact book that even if we grow 7% our GDP there always in much little haha.

We are the only nation in the world that grows 6.5 7, 8, 9% rate for more than 8 years but our GDP is always more little in the English speaking media. Haha.

In the 90 IMF thought that our GDP was 50bn but after a review or our figures they discovered the huge mistake made by them as our GDP was 250 bn so our economy was similar to Australia, Switzerland and bigger tan more little European countries.

So ok Zethe you sure are super rich but in statistics I just wonder how that is reflected in your wallet?

Any thought?
112 zethe (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 06:45 pm Report abuse
“I thought that your economy was 1 t perhaps your faster falling and all the woes and bad news from UK anticipate the future. Haha”

It's more than one trillion. 2.183 trillion to be exact.
113 harrier61 (#) Aug 13th, 2010 - 08:56 pm Report abuse
Nico. Any chance of you using real English? Not just stringing a few approximate English words together?

“We are the only nation in the world that grows 6.5 7, 8, 9% rate for more than 8 years but our GDP is always more little in the English speaking media.”

I think I understood this. Now try a little maths.
Year 1 GDP 100 Increase by 9%. Next year GDP 109.
Year 1 GDP 200 Increase by 2%. Next year GDP 204.

Geddit now? You are so far behind you don't need economic recovery, you need a MIRACLE.
114 NicoDin (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 09:22 am Report abuse
@harrier61

Harrier you are right my writing in English is not good I don’t want to be Shakespeare I don’t care and I’m so lazy and it is not my language. But even though I can appreciate that your English it is not good either.

So what can we do? Can we write in Spanish then so we can see how good you are? Haha.

I get it and you get that USD 400bn nominal taken with a exchange rate of 4,10 is 1.64 trillions and if we revalued the $Peso (because in under devaluated) lets say to Brazil rate its turns into USD 820 bn and if we adjust more the exchange rate lets sat to 1,50 x 1 USD we have a DGP of 1.1 trillion.

But like China that was so many years with a little GDP we will erode your economies because you cannot compete. Do you get the Idea now? Or do you think that China turn into the 2nd largest economy in the world from 2007. Only an ignorant reader of the FT of Economist can think that way.

Do you understand that in the world is a currency exchange problem and that US UK and EU have to make a realignment down of its currencies?

UK cannot has a Pound with a ER of 1.5588 to dollar this is artificially sustained and cost huge external debt, jobs, bankruptcies and the movement of industries to other places.

You are like Argentina in the 90 then came 2001 and may be in a couple of years your GDP would be less than our. And on that point you really yeas will need a miracle you are a little island with not resources with a huge astronomical debt and with nothing to sell to the world.
Argentina is self-sufficient but UK is not and has to import everything to keep alive.

So you are Iceland but with huge financial debt problem.

So Argentina is a Super Power compared with you mate.

Your army has turn into a joke with the cuts and the music just has started.
In a couple of years you will see salaries cut down, jobs cuts, recession, stagnation, stagflación and a long queue of Brits in all emerging power countries Embassies looking for a visa to find a job.

The mov
115 stick up your junta (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 09:29 am Report abuse
nicotine cut off in mid rant, knuckle fatigue kicks in LOL
116 Astute (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 11:14 am Report abuse
“So Argentina is a Super Power compared with you mate”

NicoDin are you for real, seriously you are a complete tool, who doesn't live in the real world.

Now you say the British army is a joke but when we really look at it, it is one of the finest and most professional army's in the world(unlike Argentina).

Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3GO8NWJMI

WAH-64 Apache
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdWiV5T7gio

Does Argentina have this technology and equipment, NO!
As for the economy, as someone has stated before London earns twice as much as the whole of Argentina, the Peso is worthless(£1 is equal to $6.1438) and again you are a tool.
117 harrier61 (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 01:11 pm Report abuse
Astute

You forgot this:

Eurofighter Typhoon
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6pt6kRPJGk

You also forgot to mention to our little argie pal that, unlike the American Abrams MBT, NO Challenger 2 has EVER been knocked out by enemy action. Because it is THE BEST!!
118 Astute (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 01:32 pm Report abuse
@harrier61
Ha, nice one, NicoDin will be angry now.
The argies have nothing near the tech and experience our armed forces have.

A challenger 2 survived being hit by over 20 RPG's and a Milan Anti tank mine, it was operational again in a few hours. Challenger 2= Best Tank in the world.

When was the last time the argies updated their tech?
119 zethe (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 02:15 pm Report abuse
114 NicoDin: I don't know what drugs you are on, but clearly they are strong.

“You are like Argentina in the 90 then came 2001 and may be in a couple of years your GDP would be less than our”

GDP Rarely goes down with nations, apart from in recessions, even then they only go down about 5-6%, All of the worlds GDP is rising every year, even yours.

The fact still remains that london by it's self makes more than double the money than your entire nation of 40 million people.

The fact still remains that we are still the worlds sixth largest economy.

“Your army has turn into a joke with the cuts and the music just has started.”
Throwing stones again in that glass house of yours? even if our defence budget was cut in half, it would still be 15 times larger than yours.
120 harrier61 (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 02:19 pm Report abuse
Thank you, Astute. I remember the Challenger incident you mention. The driver's sight was damaged and, whilst reversing, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks in a ditch. It was back in full operation 6 hours later.

Also, I shall be posting this on each appropriate thread.

Contrary to Twinky's post at (59),there IS a direct ferry between Algeciras and Gibraltar. It's passenger only - no cars and costs 4 euros.
I received this information from a Gibraltar resident today.

So here's the FACTS. When a Brit researches something, it's the TRUTH. When an argy says anything, it's a LIE
121 zethe (#) Aug 14th, 2010 - 05:21 pm Report abuse
I agree with the fact that the Challanger 2 is a great tank, i'd say it's one of if not the best tank in the world, With the leopard coming a very close second.

Though, it's not likely that an argentinian force would ever get to see one. The terrain is not suitable, plus Our commanders are likely to prefer using faster things.

The jackal and viking would be perfect for a falklands scenario. The only problem the army had last time was moving around, the viking would be a god send to them.

Tank warfare is fastly becoming out of date.
122 harrier61 (#) Aug 15th, 2010 - 11:42 am Report abuse
zethe. I didn't actually suggest the Challenger 2 for the Falklands, but I do think they would make mincemeat of amtraks. It's worth thinking that if theatre commanders wanted Challengers in Afghanistan, and they did, they could be just as useful on the Falklands.
But, moving westward, think about the pampas!
123 zethe (#) Aug 15th, 2010 - 12:45 pm Report abuse
Then again, setting challangers on them would be a bit unfair lol, Even our marines made mincemeat of their amtraks!
124 albert yome (#) Aug 15th, 2010 - 07:17 pm Report abuse
If Alejandro and his fellow fascists want Gibraltar back, BRING IT ON, but first make sure they buy enough body bags. We all know that the Spanish have about much backbone as a slug. That goes for the Argies too. Gibraltar and the Fallkands will be British for as long as its people determine that they be so. This is called 'democracy', something that Spain and Argentina struggle with. Democracy is allowing people to disagree with you without resorting to threats. It's noteworthy that both countries continue to bully little territories, but have no stomach for upsetting the Chileans or the French.
125 zethe (#) Aug 15th, 2010 - 09:59 pm Report abuse
Aye, the french for all their reputation of being white flag wavers are vicious when it comes to matters like this.
126 harrier61 (#) Aug 15th, 2010 - 10:01 pm Report abuse
Please, albert. Argentina bullies Chile quite successfully, and Uruguay as well. Not so sure about France. The French do seem to have a short and direct way of dealing with people that upset them. Not always successful of course, which is why Britain has had to pull them out of the mire so many times. But then, over time, Britain has beat Spain and France and Argentina. No reason to believe anything will change. As far as Argentina is concerned, one Gurkha should be enough!

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