Tuesday, October 12th 2010 - 00:55 UTC

The Kirchner couple government “is corroded by corruption”

Peruvian Nobel Literature Prize 2010 Mario Vargas Llosa claims Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner leads a “government corroded by corruption” and said that Argentina is disappearing as a political reference in Latinamerica.

Literature Nobel Prize Mario Vargas Llosa spared no words

“The current Argentine government is corroded by corruption, and to such an extent that it is loosing its natural leadership and disappearing as a political reference for Latinamerica”, underlined Vargas Llosa interviewed by one of the main Latino broadcasting stations in the United States.

The novelist, journalist essayist is currently a visiting professor at Princeton University and joined the group of distinguished writers from Latinamerica, Argentina's Julio Cortázar, Brazil's Jorge Amado, Mexico's Octavio Paz and Carlos Fuentes, Paraguay’s Augusto Roa Bastos, Uruguay’s Juan Carlos Onetti and Colombia's Gabriel García Márquez - who have changed world literature.

“It’s enough to listen to the Argentine president to know what populism and demagoguery is”, said Vargas Losa adding that “it’s hard to understand how a country like Argentina, that we all know what it has meant culturally and scientifically at world level, has chosen s president of such intellectual and cultural poverty”.

The Nobel Prize who has been involved in politics, he was presidential candidate for a Conservative front in Peru in 1990, pointed out that President Cristina Kirchner represents the “decadence of Argentina” which is miles away from “the modern, civilized, educated country that managed to eliminate illiteracy when most of Europe was still underdeveloped”.

Insisting with the corruption claims, the Nobel Prize said that “the Kirchner couple is facing extremely serious court charges which they have never been able to explain”.

“I’m not exaggerating or trying to caricature, I make these statements and these claims from the admiration and love for a country that has given us some one as brilliant as Jorge Luis Borges, just to mention an example”. Borges in 1979 was awarded the Premio Cervantes which is the equivalent to the Nobel Prize in the Spanish language.

Argentina use to be “a window to the world of ideas, of intelligence, of permanent cultural initiative, of different artistic forms”, underlined the Nobel Prize. “That is what Argentina should be in the political field, as it once was at one time”.

Vargas Llosa recalled that Argentina at some time was an example, an exception to the rule in a Latinamerica full of corrupt dictators and of a disgraceful mediocrity, “I’m much grieved by this that Argentina should have become under the Kirchner couple, a country that is disappearing and no longer contributing to the world of culture and science”.


74 comments Feed

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1 xbarilox (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 02:36 am Report abuse
Vargas Llosa writes good stories, I've been to three of his conferences and he's really a good orator too. He once ran for presindent but couldn't reach the end zone :(
Unfortunately, Mr Vargas Llosa, bad people are in every country, and to change the world you need the world united in love, justice, truth, respect... I don't think this will happen. Human history has always been, the strong against the weak, and the result is always the same, suffering and people like the Kirchners making promises for a change.
I'm reading your Desafío a la Libertad, and the book is as great as I thought when I bought it. I think you really deserved the Nobel.. but many people in Peru don't like Mario Vargas Llosa and didn't want him to win the prize... you know, the U.S. imperialism and the invasions and the non existent weapons of mass distruction and all that... people say that Mr Vargas Llosa is happy about it... crazy, huh?
2 Think (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 04:25 am Report abuse

You say:
I've been to three of his conferences and he's really a good orator too.

I say:
Pretty impressive for an 19 years Argentinean old boy as you described yourself in your first post :-)))))

Didn't you Mama teach you not to lie?

I am 147 years old myself and never saw the man... I did read most of his excellent early production though .......
3 stick up your junta (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 06:02 am Report abuse
@ think

Spin baby spin :-)
4 xbarilox (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 07:23 am Report abuse
@ Think #2...
My father works at an editorial group, and we attend many conferences and book presentations. I saw Vargas Llosa for the first time in Córdoba - 1998, then again in 2003 - Feria del Libro - Bs As, then again in Rosario - 2008- where a seminar was held.

Didn't your Momma teach you not to stalk boys?

If you're 47 years old, and you've never seen Mario Vargas Llosa, well, it's all your fault not mine.

You're a stalker and I won't reply to any more of your posts.
5 Think (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 07:27 am Report abuse
I wrote 147, not 47 you little Chilean fake :-)
Can't you read?
6 Typhoon (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 09:04 am Report abuse
Not a lot of point, Twinky. He's not going to respond 6o any more of your posts. Or can't YOU read?
Actually, your reading ability seems to come and go. Sometimes you can. If the script says what you're supposed to drivel about next. And sometimes you can't. When a comment directed at/to you is beyond your grasp.
7 fredbdc (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 05:40 pm Report abuse
Think can't debate issues he can only attack the speakers. For all of the blustering and big words he never really says much anyway.
Glad to see the Ks corruption is getting international media attention. I wonder if this is why they are trying to control the media, TV and internet in Argentina? Probably so...
8 Wireless (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 06:06 pm Report abuse
Come on Thingy, you're supposed to defend your corrupt country, not attack other posters, at least stick to the game and entertain us with your patriotic rhetoric.
9 Marcos Alejandro (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 06:24 pm Report abuse
Corruption?.... in UK?
10 stick up your junta (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 06:50 pm Report abuse
Come on Marcos you can do better than that



11 Marcos Alejandro (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
I know stickie, but it will take me days to list so many cases of corruption in UK and Malvinas.
12 stick up your junta (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 08:52 pm Report abuse
Q: How would you describe Argentina's President Néstor Kirchner?

A: I would describe Kirchner as a demagogue. I don't agree with the [Argentine government's] perception that [former President Carlos] Menem's policies were ultra-free market reforms. They were not. They were a smoke-screen for huge corruption and influence peddling, which naturally had very negative results. And that frustration has moved the Argentine people to turn from the Menem demagoguery to the Kirchner demagoguery. I'm afraid that the results will be equally catastrophic.

it will take me days to list so many cases of corruption in UK

come on Marcos give it a go, one for one see who runs out first
13 WestisBest (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 09:42 pm Report abuse
“The Kirchner couple government “is corroded by corruption””
Wow, this comes to you straight from the ministry of the bleeding obvious.
14 axel arg (#) Oct 12th, 2010 - 09:47 pm Report abuse
I am not sorprised in absolut for the words of vargas lloza, it was obvious that he was going to reject the kirchner couple, beside when some one does not have any solid argument to hold hes assertions, the only one aspect that he can argue, is corruption.
I wont deny that the kirchner are corrupt, they are suspected of corruption cases, however if mr vargas lloza would have unless one line of objetivity he would mention also all the changes that my country has since 2003, but it's perfectly expectable that he is not going to do it, probably he does not know anything about the reality of my country, he must read surely clarin and la nacion, in that way even namibia will seem better than argentina.
I am not a supporter of the kirchner, in fact i dont neather another k government, but i must reecognize like me or not that most oponent politiccans are even 100 times worst than kichner, only ricardo alfonsin is a serious alternative, i hope he wins.
On the other hand, if mr vargas lloza is so concerned about poverty, he should mention what's going on in hes country, wich unfortunately is much more unequal than argentina.
15 fredbdc (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 01:10 am Report abuse
Axel, You are pathetic, you and your ignorant population is falling for the bread and circus and it so sad.
16 xbarilox (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 07:27 am Report abuse
I would say that me, like many other Argentinian people, have been to Peru, and yes, Peruvian society is much more unequal than Argentina's society, but this has always been South America's history. Many people from other countries have never been to South America, and they say, Oh, Brasil is so advanced, you know, there is no poverty in Brasil! lol, Nope, that's not true, but again, this is South America's history.





Unfortunately we have thousands of people coming to our country from Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Chile, Brasil (mostly black people), South Africa, Liberia, Romania, Servia, Spain, Sudan, Angola, Narcos from Mexico, etc etc, our economy is weak, and we can not give all these people what they need, and we have more new poor people from different countries coming to our country everyday. Native poors + foreign poors = BIGGEST POOR

If a Nation denies the poor then that Nation has no future. The Poor exist in every country, don't deny the poor, do something to end poverty and inequality.

I think this won't change until 2012-12-21 lol
17 Typhoon (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 10:38 am Report abuse
axel is back with his blah, blah, blah.

He should be ignored. He can't even get facts right.
18 Think (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 03:05 pm Report abuse
(16) xbarilox

Everybody surely “knows” by now that you are an “Argentinean”,.... that your country is “Argentina”,...... that you live in “Argentina”..........

You tell us about your “Argentineship” in each and every one of your posts :-)))

Don't you like to be Chilean anymore?
19 xbarilox (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 04:00 pm Report abuse
A 2 year old kid (Héctor Díaz) died of hunger (2010-09-05) in the Province of Misiones, Argentina, and it's not the only case.
Some people don't like the truth, but it looks like the Kirchners are lying about our country wherever they go. If there is a crime that is governments like the Kirchners letting their people die of hunger while they become zillionaires, and the Kirchners are willing to do it. I know this happens not only in my country, but the Kirchners are doing it, and I like to tell it like it is.
20 Think (#) Oct 13th, 2010 - 04:57 pm Report abuse
There have been some murders, several rapes, a lot of workplace ” accidents and some baaad car crashes too.

Shame on Argentina
21 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 14th, 2010 - 01:28 am Report abuse
7 fredbdc (#) to Think:
Think can't debate issues he can only attack the speakers. For all of the blustering and big words he never really says much anyway.

13 fredbdc (#) to Axel
Axel, You are pathetic, you and your ignorant population is falling for the bread and circus and it so sad.
22 fredbdc (#) Oct 14th, 2010 - 07:07 pm Report abuse
J: How is inflation affecting the purchasing power of the salaries in your sector?

L. B.: We managed to obtain a 35 percent wage increase and the purchasing power has largely deteriorated ever since. Three moths after implementing the Universal Family Allowance programmer, nearly 50 percent of the subsidy was already ‘outdated' against inflation. Inflation is the most relevant issue in Argentina.
J: How is inflation affecting the purchasing power of the salaries in your sector?

L. B.: We managed to obtain a 35 percent wage increase and the purchasing power has largely deteriorated ever since. Three moths after implementing the Universal Family Allowance programmer, nearly 50 percent of the subsidy was already ‘outdated' against inflation. Inflation is the most relevant issue in Argentina. J: How is inflation affecting the purchasing power of the salaries in your sector?

L. B.: We managed to obtain a 35 percent wage increase and the purchasing power has largely deteriorated ever since. Three moths after implementing the Universal Family Allowance programmer, nearly 50 percent of the subsidy was already ‘outdated' against inflation. Inflation is the most relevant issue in Argentina.


I think the Ks will find that the inflation genie is hard to put back in the bottle. Maybe Axel will get his 70% raise next year. Gee I thought it was going so well there? its going to be really ugly when the show ends.
23 J.A. Roberts (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 08:41 am Report abuse
Marcos, at least we kick our corrupt politicians out and even take them to court.

You guys just re-elect yours...
24 axel arg (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 01:25 pm Report abuse
JASON: You are right, most people reelected our corrupt politicians, however if you want to criticise our situation, you should make a deep analisys about the social and politic scenario of our country, it's very easy to critisise from a foreign country and ignoring important issues.
Like i said in many oportunitys, the kirchner are corrupt politicians, they are suspected of corruption cases, however i must recognize like me or not that most oponent politicians are 100 worst than the k, most them are fervent admirers of menem's policys, and we already know what it means, this is why in spite of the corruption cases wich the k are suspected, many people would vote them again.
In my case, i really hope that ricardo alfonsin wins, i think he is the only one serious alternative betwen all the politicians, but if he is not elected, then i hope that nestor wins again.
FRED: I remembered that a couple of weeks ago you criticised me because it soposes that only read newspapers wich support the k, however you always invoke only the bs herald, my question is, what kind of plurality do you have?.
In my case, i read la prensa, (liberal, belonging to the most conserveness right, and oponent to the policys of the k), and i read also pagina 12 (leftist and supporter of the k).
On the other hand, we know perfectly how inflation level affects our salarys, and it's a problem that must be solved, i said it in many oportunitys, anyway all of us have two rases in our salarys, even the government increases the social income that it gives for poor people, this is why the sells in suppermakets keep on increasing this year, like they do it since 2003.
Beside our central bank has enough reserves to stop any onset in the prize of the dollar, even the most orthodox economists argue it.
So, you can parrot 1000 times what you read in your bs as herald, it will show once and again how clown you are.
25 Typhoon (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 02:00 pm Report abuse
The pillock's back again!!
26 fredbdc (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 03:12 pm Report abuse
Axel, I thought you were protesting today? How many times can you be wrong in one paragraph? The world is watching and waiting for the crash, even the Argentinians know it is coming now:


BTW I posit BA Herald because it is kind of in English
27 axel arg (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
Keep on spiting to up, and maybe it fell into your face, if you are so smart, and your country is so predictible, then ask your self why, are you living the situation that have now in the usa?.
The diference betwen you and i, is that i dont make fun at the situation that your countyr is going through, i am not a shit like you are.
Regarding our future, what you say is as reliable as the statistics of our indec, since 2003 i hear that the country is goin to fall soon, and i know that i will keep on hearing so much more crap, but i only believe in what finally happens, no one knows what could happen in the future.
28 fredbdc (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 11:09 pm Report abuse
Everyone knows what will happen in the future, the USA will right itself and throw out the Socialist/Marxist/Progressive dumbo we have in office now and become richer and stronger. While Argentina will elect someone just as corrupt and stupid as the one you have now and get poorer and weaker. History has proved it hasn't it, or has something changed in the last 60 years that I am not aware of?
29 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 11:37 pm Report abuse
The US will fall in a double dip recession, the dollar will cease being the world reserve currency over its instability, the US will no longer have the capacity to print its money to pay off debts, its sovereign debt will collapse, popular dissatisfaction with the government will hit record numbers, and ultra right wing militias will push for a military takeover. And most of these predictions will materialize in the next 5 years.
30 Zethee (#) Oct 15th, 2010 - 11:47 pm Report abuse
Then i will sprout wings and fly over the atlantic shooting lightning bolts from my arse.
31 fredbdc (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 12:16 pm Report abuse
Forget do you ever leave your favela? You are just a young boy who knows the world through the internet. You think a 5 year recession will ruin the greatest nation on earth? Such a sad little puppy, go play on the beach like the rest of your countrymen and let the grown ups manage.
32 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 03:26 pm Report abuse
fred, and you complain others supposedly won't discuss issues but only insult. Yet you are the one who most often resort to childish and gratuitous vulgarity.

The predictions above are not mine, they are Immanuel Wallerstein's. And I see no reason why they would be less correct than your pathetically triumphalist expectations. At least Wallerstein has a better brain, I imagine his analyses are based on studies of historical trends, not on silly jingoism as is your case. You don't know, btw, whether the recession will cease 5 years form now, yet you chant recovery already. Argentina is in a better situation, at least when it comes to economy, but you predict its downfall. Talk about incoherence.
33 fredbdc (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 03:58 pm Report abuse
I am sure that old anti-capitalist would love to see the demise of the USA but it isn't going ot happen in our lifetime.
Forget, you a little 3rd world bumpkin who has never seen a civilized country your opinions are worthless to me. I have lived in both Argentina and The USA I have a real world reference to base my opinions. You need to travel and learn and not get warped by the drivel you are reading on the internet. Why is a Brazilian even on an chat board about Argentina? Seriously go play on the beach, maybe you can meet a nice American so you can come here for a visit.
34 Zethee (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 04:17 pm Report abuse
“Argentina is in a better situation, at least when it comes to economy”
Than the USA?

35 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 04:24 pm Report abuse
Oh I see you googled “Immanuel Wallerstein” and learned he is a neomarxist academic. And because of his political leanings, his opinions are of no value for you. That's likely what you understand of a good debate - to hear only one side of the matter, and the one that will confirm your beliefs. Again, I think his analyses are trustworthy. They were good in predicting - down in 2002 - what would result from the hawkish US foreign policy.

And yeah, keep going with your insults. I wonder if you think they make you look witty instead of an intellectually challenged redneck who is unable to deal with serious objections to your worldview with something other than desperate name calling. Fred, what value is there in being born in a “civilized country” if you can't even be educated to THINK and to discuss like an adult?

And chat board is of free access, so I don't have to justify why I'm here. And you, why do you like discussing all things Argentine - the Argentine government, the Argentine economy or the Argentine-UK brawl over the FI? You no longer live there (I'm supposing you ever did), such matters are of no importance to you anymore. Aren't you 40 yo? And yet you waste your time on a chat board to say to bunch of Argentines how their country is shitty and how yours is the best of the world and will always keep being so. And you pose as an adult. You have way too much time in hands. That's probably because real estate business has been rather slow the last few years.

And again I have to thank you for the invitation to visit your country, but I have no intention to visit a highly indebted and bankrupt rogue state full of nasty rednecks.
36 Forgetit86 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 04:34 pm Report abuse

Argentina's main problem is inflation. But its growth is high. Even the IMF says it's about to grow 7,5% this year. No one says Argentina is in danger in falling into a double dip recession, and the Financial Times itself - no friend of the current Argentine government or its heterodox policies - said of Argentina that it will likely prove as one of the most resilient countries in face of a hypothetical US double dip. Unemployment is currently at 8.5%, which is not high for a LatAm country. Compare that with the 9.6% in the US, which is very high for a developed country, its skyhigh sovereign debt - much higher than Argentina's - and fiscal irresponsiblity (which go back to the Bush years).
37 Zethee (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 05:54 pm Report abuse
“such matters are of no importance to you anymore. Aren't you 40 yo? And yet you waste your time on a chat board to say to bunch of Argentines ”

In this day and age people are allowed to become intrested in whatever they like.

As for his age i believe Think has also said in the past that he is in or past his 40's. It has nothing to do with anything.

Theres no way you can justify claiming that Argentina's economy is in a stronger position than the USA's. It's just rediculous.

Argentina's economy may grow 7.5% this year. The difference between the economy's in massive. forinstance the USA's economy would only have to grow 0.2% and it would still grow a full 6 billion dollars a year more than argentinas.

7.5% of 300 billion = 22 500 000 000

0.2% of 14 trillion = 28 000 000 000

These “end of the world” predictions always make me laugh, within 5 years USA is going to have a worse economy than Argentina?......US Armed forces are richer than argentina.
38 fredbdc (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 06:05 pm Report abuse
Brazuca, have you read any history at all? This recession is much lighter and we are in a much better position than we were in the 70s. Wasn't everyone writing The USA off then too? Any country can pump $ into the system to encourage consumerism, it doesn't work in the long run, won't work here in the USA and it won't work in Argentina. We have already started putting controls on the outrageous Federal spending here in the US. Argentina has been pumping pesos into the economy for years. Where do you think the 30% inflation comes from? This is a textbook example of how to crash an economy they did in the late 80s and they are doing it again. It will get very ugly there very soon.

There are certainly a lot of your countrymen living in the USA, must not be too bad of a place:

Where are these Brazilians living abroad? Perhaps half of them live in the United States. The largest Brazilian settlements are on the East Coast. New York, with its “Little Brazil” district on 46th Street, has an estimated 80,000 to 150,000 Brazilian emigrants. Another 150,000 are estimated to live in Boston, and 65,000 in Florida (mostly in the Miami area). About 20,000 Brazilians live in California, divided approximately equally between the San Francisco and Los Angeles metropolitan areas. The cities of Houston, Texas and Washington, DC also have about 10,000 Brazilians each.

Why don't you join them and see how a civilized society is run? You know we don't have the military patrolling our favelas. Guess what, we don't even have Favelas...gasp!
39 Forgetit86 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 07:06 pm Report abuse

No offense, but what is really “rediculous” is your reasoning. No one in here is arguing about the size of an economy - that's not how one measures how strong it is. The size of an economy is highly correlated with the population size. And the US population is almost 8x higher than Argentina's. But that's not how one measures economic stability. Growth, currency stability, unemployment levels, external vulnerability as measured by sovereign and external debt, and balance of payments: this is what counts when analyzing a country's economy and its short term prospects. And save for currency stability, Argentina beats the US on all measures.

Besides, under your “reasoning” - that Argentina's economy is less firm than that of the US because it's smaller - Venezuelan economy would be better off than, say, Singapore's, for Venezuela's real GDP is about 350 bi; and Singapore's is 180 bi. But I bet you know which country most companies would rather invest.
40 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 07:18 pm Report abuse

So do you think you can actually insult someone because of the living conditions of some of his countrymen? Really, are you 40? Alright, I won't dispute that anymore. A Japanese politician once said of Americans that they are simple minded and monocellular. And that probably goes regardless of their age.

I'm not like you. You like to pretend you're someone because of the “superpower” status of your country. At least I haven't seen you brag about anything else, and most of your insults against other posters are based on country-comparisons. Once and for all, fred, people are not the countries they come from. Or do you actually believe you're superior to men like Luis Borges, Oscar Niemeyer, or that Vargas Llosa (with whom I do not even sympathize) just because you're American? And just because some Brazilians go to Redneckland doesn't mean I want to visit a country so devoid of charms. And just because your country is a superpower or whatever, it doesn't mean you're anything but an angry and underoccupied middle age men who tries to compensate for some personal shortcoming - perhaps his failing business - with grandiose posturing.

As for migration, according to the US Census 2008 there are 350,000 of my countrymen in the US (conversely there are 60,000 Americans in here). In absolute terms that might seem “a lot”. But in proportional terms it's not. That's barely 0.2% of living Brazilians. There are more of us in Paraguay (!) than in the US. Plus, most migration of Brazilians happens within borders - namely, from the Northeast (the poorest region) to the Southeast. And abroad most migration is not to the US, but to Portugal and Spain. As for the US, one might dispute the status you attribute to it - that of a civilized society. So many Americans are like you - opinionated yolks (see the Tea Party). They don't look civilized to me. An American noveslist, Gore Vidal, has recently called American “Crookeland”. That is more on a par with my impressions.
41 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:01 pm Report abuse
Forgetit87 : 10 points
Fredbcd: 0 points
42 Zethee (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:04 pm Report abuse
“But I bet you know which country most companies would rather invest.”

So, by that logic. You think that companys would also prefer to invest in argentina over the United states?

It IS rediculous.

Also, i would like to point out that your basic understanding of maths is way off. The USA's economy is not “Almost 8 times larger”. It is infact a little over 42 times larger.

“Growth, currency stability, unemployment levels, external vulnerability as measured by sovereign and external debt”
“Argentina beats the US on all measures.”

Growth - You've gone from the worlds third largest economy to the thirty first, America is still the worlds largest.

currency stability - The US dollar still remains the worlds most used and sought after currency in the world.

unemployment levels - 9% unemployment druing a massive recession is not a high number especially with a nation with such a large population.

“external vulnerability as measured by sovereign and external debt”
The US does indeed have a very high debt but it is well within it's power to pay these debts off without defaulting, unlike argentina is prone to doing. The nation still retains it's tripple A status.
43 zethe (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:08 pm Report abuse
My bad, i thought you said economy, but you said population.
44 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
Zethee : Hors Concours.................
45 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:50 pm Report abuse
Your argument was that the US economy is firmer than that of Argentina based solely on its size an argument that is. The Venezuela-Singapore comparison was intended to show just that, not to serve as a perfect analogy with the Argentina-US case. So I'm going to ask you again: do you think Venezuelan economy is superior to that of Singapore just because it's larger?

As for investors' relative avoidance of Argentina, that is a real fact but one that isn't entirely explained by some supposed recent economic failings. It has to with history and politics, too. Until some years ago the main investors in Argentine economy were Brazilians - though the Chinese have begun to pick up -, and this in spite of good growth numbers since 2003 and a relatively weak currency that makes investments in foreign currencies cheap. Aside from that, Argentina boasts of one of the most well educated populations in developing nations. All this would make most countries an attractive destination for FDIs. The reason this isn't the case for Argentina, as I said before, has to do in part with its history - the stigma of a bankrupt country acquired from the economy meltdown of the 90s - and to politics - the relative political instability in the country, caused mostly by the Kirchners high profile enmity towards international banks (though IMO such enmity is entirely justified) and dispute with certain sectors of their society - most prominently, ruralists and the media.

As for your points.

Growth: Argentina's fall from grace isn't a recent fact, but one that was evident by the mid XX century. When I say Argentina's growth nrs are better - indeed far better - than those of the US, I'm referring to more recent data, especially those from the 2000s. Since 2003 Argentina's been among the fastest growing economies in the world. And though the numbers tend to be artifically inflated by the official statistics institute in there, they remain high even according the calculation of private companies.
46 Forgetit86 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 08:55 pm Report abuse
Currency stability: I don't deny that in this measure the US is superior to Argentina. As a matter of fact, I've said both that inflation is the main issue for Argentine economy and that “save for currency stability” Argentina tends to beat the US.

Unemployment: US unemployment has been in the 9.5-10% range for a fairly long amount of time. And as said before, that's a very large figure for a developed economy. That a larger country tends to have more unemployment than a smaller one, is something I've never heard about. By the early 2008, US unemployment was as low as that of Sweden (5-5.5%), a developed country with a much smaller population. And Japan tends to boast of one of the smallest unemployment figures in spite of relatively large population. Even now, their unemployment is at 5.1% - a figure that is considered high for the country's standards (!).

Debt: I'm not as bullish on US ability to pay off its debts. How would it do it? By increasing taxes? That's going to kill the economy. Devaluing the currency? Won't work for US's greatest trade deficit is with China, a country whose currency is pegged to the US dollar.

Aside from that, the US has sone of the largest current account deficits as a percentage of GDP in the world , something that sooner or later - as seen in similar situations in East Asian and LatAm countries - will make it vulnerable to the attack of financial speculators.
47 zethe (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 09:04 pm Report abuse
It is absolutely rediculous how someone can try to defend saying that Argentina has a stronger economy than the United States.

“So I'm going to ask you again: do you think Venezuelan economy is superior to that of Singapore just because it's larger?”

I can't comment because honestly i know nothing about Singapore, and not much more about Venezuela. Your views that the USA will crash and burn from having a 14 trillion economy to a lower one than argentina within five years is the stuff of fairytails. It's not even logical.

Five or so years ago, the worlds largest beef exporter has it's own citizens starving in the streets, now one of it's citizens is telling me that it is a more stable economy than the United States?

But, ok. lets just say for arguments sake that Argentina is infact a more stable economy than the united states, can you tell me how that is better than being the worlds largest economy?

It's very easy to be one of the fastest economys in the world when you have a small economy, like i said earlier:

For your economy to “catch up” to the united states, the US economy would have to grow at 0.1% while argentina's economy would have to grow at over 8% for about 42 years.

But that's not the case, is it? In the real world that's not going to happen.
48 Zethee (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 09:08 pm Report abuse
“I don't deny that in this measure the US is superior to Argentina”
I'm pretty sure you did.
“Argentina beats the US on all measures.”

“Debt: I'm not as bullish on US ability to pay off its debts. How would it do it? By increasing taxes? ”

Decrease it's military budget for one. They can easily loose a carrier group or two.
49 Forgetit86 (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 09:39 pm Report abuse

Have I ever said the US is going to have an economy smaller than that of Argentina? What I've said is this: that an economy's strength hasn't much to do with its sheer size. It has to do with a much wider range of factors - namely, growth, fiscal susteinability, current account, inflation, external vulnerability and the like.

Alright, you don't know much about Singapore and Venezuela. So let's Denmark with another country. Denmark has a real GDP of 310 bi dollars - a number that is smaller than those of Mexico, Turkey, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Iran. I ask you now: is Denmark's economy inferior to that of Turkey? or that of Iran??

And yes, from the beginning I've said that, when it comes to currency stability (that is to say, inflation), the US outperforms Argentina. For some reason you pick only one part of my quote, but what I actually said on post #39 was that “SAVE FOR currency stability, Argentina beats the US on all measures.” Do you not know what “save for” means, or are you pretending I said the opposite of what is written?

“For your economy to “catch up” to the united states, the US economy would have to grow at 0.1% while argentina's economy would have to grow at over 8% for about 42 years.”

Yeah you keep pretending I'm comparing those two economies' sizes.
50 Zethee (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 11:16 pm Report abuse
“What I've said is this: that an economy's strength hasn't much to do with its sheer size”

There is no definition of the term “strong economy”. Larger economys are the more powerful and as such are stronger.

Economys are defined on there GDP compaired with the GDP Per capita of the nation.

“Alright, you don't know much about Singapore and Venezuela. So let's Denmark with another country. Denmark has a real GDP of 310 bi dollars - a number that is smaller than those of Mexico, Turkey, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Iran. I ask you now: is Denmark's economy inferior to that of Turkey? or that of Iran??”

In certan ways yes, in others no. While those nations mostly have a larger economy GDP Per capita is three times higher in Denmark.

Most of those nations have a higher Per capita than Argentina. Australia has half the population of Argentina yet three times the economy.

How is your economy special? I just can't see it.
51 zethe (#) Oct 16th, 2010 - 11:28 pm Report abuse

Lets compare Denmark with argentina. Your economys are about equal. They only have 5 million people.

How is your economy strong?
52 fredbdc (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 01:36 pm Report abuse
I also not a fan of the USA debt. The spending is out of control. I think the way it will be fixed is relatively simple though. The Federal Government will increase the retirement age to 72 and then decrease all spending including military. Everyone my age (40s) has been told Social Security will not be there for us in retirement we have been hearing that since we were in grade school, so we are prepared and ready for the increase anyway.

What people don't understand about the UK or USA is we will take the steps necessary to fix it. We will not protest in the streets to keep our government handouts. It is not the way it is done.

The current Socialist/Marxists in charge of our gov't will be severely limited in their ability to spend after Nov 10. If the new crop of reps does what the people are telling them this mess will be on the way to recovery in 12 mos. Our economy is HUGE, our productivity is HUGE, our entrepreneurship will take care of us as long as the government stays out of the way.

Brazuca, I have had this same discussion with Axel many times, you can't compare a tiny insignificant country to the USA nor can you take a brief 7 or 10 year time period and extrapolate it out. Why don't you look at the last 50 or 100 years and use those numbers to look where everything will be in the next 100 years. 5 years gives you a bubble mentality that is very common in Latin America, it is too short of a period to be accurate.

You may be book smart and think your know what you are talking about but you are just like every 20 y/o kid that will realize what a fool he was in his 20s when he is in his 40s. One trip to NYC will change your life and outlook. If you can get the visa you should try it. It is very hard to take what you say seriously when all you know is Brazil a dangerous and dirty country with huge wealth differentials. It is not like that here but until you see if for yourself you will not understand. You have no idea of reality and it is sad.
53 NicoDin (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 02:55 pm Report abuse
@Zethe Forgetit87 is Brazilian to start with

@ ---- Well that’s it The yank Junk Food Eater with his flowered shirt naked in Miami without beach thanks to BH has really pissed off Forgetit87.

I think that the great nation will end like the Shit Nation in the next 5 years.

Look how faster your debt is growing www.usdebtclock.org/ some people don’t trust you anymore as the Great nation you say.


Unemployment in USA is not 9.6% else close to 21% right now you have to read the hole figure I mean the U-6 figures that of course are twisted.

In the 9.6% are not counted the long term unemployment prospects, better known as Marginally Attached Workers (U-6). The official data (Of course favourable to the govt.) is 17.3 (2009) and growing faster.

The no official has 3.5 points more if Argentina counts the same way unemployment would be half of what its now. Let’s say 4%. Here US offical chart portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp


This is not the GDP of Argentina else 420bn for 2009 measured of fixed constant prices from 1993 1=1 USD/Pesos parity. Without inflation, etc. pure dollar term based on production.

So your account should be %7.5 of 420bn=31.5bn to get the real figure or use like in US case se bellow.

The 14t of US are measure by the Expenditure approach method with counts all sales based on tax reported by business. GDP Y = C + I + G + (X − M) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_Categories_-_United_States.png

In that case Argentina 2009 GDP was close to 2 trillion pesos (reported by business) 2t/3.93= 508.9bn dollars.

So now your account should be 7.5% of 508.9bn=38.167 US dollar total U$S 547,067

And if you include the informal economy as European countries does you should add to this figure at last 25/30% more. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_inf_eco-economy-informal

And this? www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZgQNDk9hu4
54 fredbdc (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 03:20 pm Report abuse
Nico: There are always small protests about something or other. Most of them don't even make it into the news. Have you ever seen or heard of a protest in the USA like they are having in France now or like the daily ones in Latin America? I haven't and I live here. BTW no matter how you look at statistics the USA can't compare to any one nation a lot of our smaller states are bigger and have a higher GDP than most nations. So don't even bother trying to compare it is not possible.
55 NicoDin (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 04:37 pm Report abuse
@ fredbdc

You have to complex of too big to fail but when fails make more damage that too little to fail.
I know that California for example has a GDP close to France for example and that French always are in the street for something.

But life is other thing than the size of GDP printed on any statistic.
California has a big GDP but also a high debt and is already broke. Anyone can tell you that.

Here a simple analogy imagine you have a factory that produces 1000 cars and give your turn over of U$s 1m (1m GDP really big compare with mine) and I have a smaller factory that produce 4 cars and I get U$D 4000 (gdp).

But you owe to the foreigners bankers 1m plus interest and also to your family $800.000 and all liabilities for your employees, health, education, pension, etc. total $15m

My little factory only owes $1200 to foreigner banks and family $2000 and all liabilities are in box as I don’t have deficit else net profit.

Let me see my factory $4000-$1200-$2000= $800-100 to serve debt. $700 profit and not extra liabilities.

Let me see yours $1m-1m-0.800m-15m= -15.800+ huge interest rates to serve the debt =-18.800m red.

Now the compression reflects US and Argentina economy the more stupid person in the world cans tell you who has a better business and who is to collapse.

Your factory will have to reduce personnel, cut salaries to remainders, renegotiate the debt and may be to put your sales price down to start to see any profit again and meanwhile has to continue borrowing to keep the factory running and convince creditors that you will be able to pay their back.

Well your factory called USA starts to issue flying checks with not funds to survive the problem will start when someone wants to cash the check and realises that there is not funds.

Like the credit crunch that start when someone though “Oh who is going to pay this?
56 WestisBest (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 04:42 pm Report abuse
All this juggling of figures is meaningless, Argentine Politicians and Officials (being either corrupt or incompetent) are not going to be able to produce any valid statistics.

It's a great skill, given some of the greatest resources in South America you still manage to make a hash of it, you should be one of the richest, most powerful countries in the world, instead.......
57 Zethee (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 06:58 pm Report abuse
53 NicoDin:

You can try and spin it any way you like Nico, Argentina's GDP is just over 300 billion.
58 fredbdc (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 10:24 pm Report abuse
Nico, that is the dumbest analogy I have ever read. You are leaving out so many important variables that I don't know where to begin because it would take too long.
The USA is not Argentina we are bigger stronger and always will be. Do you forget your country defaulted a few years ago and you can't issue international debt? Maybe that is why your debt level is so low. You a living in a dream world if you think the rest of us have forgotten. Do you think your history of debt payments started in 2003? It is a waste of time to debate with you, you are obviously retarded.
59 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 17th, 2010 - 11:47 pm Report abuse

Alright, there's no definition of “strong economy.” But from my previous words, one can gather that I was using that term to refer to countries with better ability to guarantee an improving or at least a stable scenario for the short term. And for the reasons I've pointed above I believe it's fair to say that Argentina's economically better off than the US. In comparison with the US, Argentina has both better growth numbers and lower unemployment rates - and this, in spite of its developing status (we know developing countries in general tend to have high unemployment). And its current account deficit isn't worrisome, at least for now. The US's, on the other hand, is increasingly so, and the scenario for its economy is still uncertain for the short term, and even more so for the long one. Unless its current account deficit stops increasing, one can't yet chant recovery, for the larger it becomes, the more vulnerable it'll be to speculative attacks. We've seen that in LatAm and East Asia during the 90s.

No doubt that a larger economy is a more influential one, and in this sense it is stronger. India, for instance, is larger and thus more influential than Norway, even though its population is much poorer than that of any European country. But let's compare 2 hypothetical countries and then you tell me which one you consider stronger. (A) A country with a 200 mi people workforce, 15,000 USS per capita income and 4% annual growth, net external debt of 90% of GDP and current account deficit of 7% of GDP; (B) another one with a 30 mi people workforce, 15,000 USS per capita income, 7% annual growth; net external debt of 15% of GDP and no current account deficit. For me it's clear the second economy, though much smaller in total GDP, looks steadier for the short term. And you, do you prefer the 1st one just because of its size?
60 Zethee (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 07:07 am Report abuse
You keep saying how Argentina is growing faster than the US when it isn't.

US has just came out of a recession. It's growth this year is about 1.7%. which is 238,000,000,000.

Even if Argentina grows a full 10% this year it's economy will only grow 30,000,000,000.

Lower unemployment rates? Sure. But the US has JUST came out of a recession. Did argentina have the same rates then? no i believe they were about 30-40%

Yeah the debt is worrying, But they have not and are not planning on defaulting, Argentina did.

Short term economics are not what define a strong economy. “My economy has been strong for three years therefore it's strong”? No.
61 zethe (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 07:11 am Report abuse
My bad, i read an old report. The US' Current growth is 5.7%, which is just under 800 billion a year.
62 NicoDin (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 07:38 am Report abuse

We don’t need to borrow like US to keep floating.
The day that you cannot borrow cheaper any more your economy will collapse you currency and everything you take for granted.

See Lehman Brothers to big to fail until fails. Next years US has to withdraw all stimulus packages else will not be able to borrow cheap any more. The FED knows this and is preparing a plan to buy US govt. debt to keep the economy alive. www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2010/s3037485.htm

Read the Waimar Republic you will end with high inflation devaluation of the Purchasing Power of the dollar, high interest rates to borrow abroad and reduction of salaries. And then if the economy doesn’t show sign of recovery, collapse like banana republic style you have a debt bomb that cannot be unarmed for anyone.

So super power and greatest nation in the world in 5 years time I can see you looking for a job in Bolivia or Mexico. Get tuned.

Here my help for you:

Hello, I’m American and I need desperately a job sir.

Hola señor soy un estúpido y arrogante Norteamericano y necesito desesperadamente un trabajo.

The Mexican employer: Piss off Greengo
63 fredbdc (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 11:56 am Report abuse
Nico, you are either retarded or Argentinian sometimes it is hard to tell. You are predicting my country will default like Argentina but will somehow end up worse? How do you figure? You obviously know nothing about economics. What a fool you are making of yourself, go collect some cardboard so you can give the locuturio another peso.
64 Zethee (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 12:46 pm Report abuse
fred, This is the same guy who also thinks that it would take no less than 5000 nuclear warheads to level Argentina, and is apparently an expert Anthrax bomber.

No point trying to talk sence to someone with none.
65 fredbdc (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 01:33 pm Report abuse
I think 2 would be sufficient; 1 for BA, take out 1/3 of the population, most of the production, the 2 most largest airports, largest port, most of the paved roads then, 2 Mendoza take out the rest of their production and a little more population. Problem is it won't give the conqueror much to work with for at least 25 yrs. But it begs the question of why? They don't realize how insignificant they are, they don't produce anything unique and they are basically lazy corrupt marxists. Why would anyone want them or their land? The only ones who could do something with the land are the Chilenos but they are already doing much better so why would they want the problems?
66 Zethee (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 02:30 pm Report abuse
It's really hilarious, have a read:
67 fredbdc (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 04:42 pm Report abuse
Oh I posted on the wrong string. It is hilarious and yet so sad!
If Nico knows about farming my guess is that where ever he lives has only 1 500K sownload internet location and 1 paved road. Most small towns only hope to have their main road paved outside of BA.
So somehow he thinks they have the intellectual ability, capital and mfg capacity to make weaponized anthrax. What a rube. They can't even mfg enough flu vaccine for their own population.
68 Zethee (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 06:57 pm Report abuse
Fred we might have nukes, But nico lives in a concrete building, Our weapons are ineffective!
69 fredbdc (#) Oct 18th, 2010 - 08:52 pm Report abuse
I watched some 10 story buildings being built in BA, you know they don't use pylons! They HAND dig down about 1 or 2 stories and use cinder blocks as their base! Many times the buildings collapse partly through the construction process or shortly thereafter. The bribes go a long way in not having to have the building meet code. Although they may not have a code, I am not really sure. I really hope they don't have an earthquake, it will look like Haiti just a mass of rubble.
70 Forgetit87 (#) Oct 20th, 2010 - 12:57 am Report abuse

Argentina IS growing more than the US. This, one can conclude independently from the source used to get to the numbers, whether they're from the government institute or private ones. I've already said many times in here that growth numbers don't depend on the size of an economy. They're a comparison between the GDP of a random year and that of a previous year. As such, Argentina can boast of good growth numbers - much better than those of the US - and yet keep being much smaller in total GDP. I don't know why you keep ignoring that.

Below there are to links about Argentina and US GDP growth. See which country has been having better growth figures the last years.



Let's compare India and the US.
- In 2009 India had a 1.23 tri USS GDP. It's set to grow 8.5% this year. So, one can forecast that its GDP in 2010 will be of 1.33 tri in 2009 dollars (I'm ignoring the effects of currency de/revaluation).

- The US, on the other hand, had last year a GDP of 14.2 tri dollars. According to the estimate you cite, it is set to grow 1.7% this tear. So, one can forecast that its GDP in 2010 will be of 14.44 tri in 2009 dollars (I'm again ignoring currency).

India's GDP is thought to grow 100 bi dollars from last year to this one. US's is supposed to grow 240 bi. So, on absolute terms, US's economy had greater growth. But which of those two countries do economists worldwide call a fast-growing one? Is that India or the US? We know it is India. And this, because economists take into account percentage growth, not total GDP.

As for US unemployment, one shouldn't overlook it just because the US has been very recently in recession whilst Argentina has not - for the fact that the US has had a recession at all indicates its economy is not as steady as you're implying.
71 NicoDin (#) Oct 20th, 2010 - 10:22 am Report abuse

Before I thought, well may be this guy is just ignorant.
But not I have not doubts at all now of it.

You cannot build a Building in concrete for more than 2 stores without Pylon (Pilotes) and they are an essential part of foundation.
The Pylons go 1/3 of the high from the level of the ground down deep.

Lets say 18mt high 6mt pylon down. They can be of still/zinc made in situ (still concrete) or preformed and then dived like a nail.

The excavation you referred are made by machines and whatever you though they are, we called sub floors (For parking, or depots) and the foundation then generally are chained.

1 floor house don’t need pylon none use this because is stupid a 1,5 mt down chained concrete and foundation is more than enough.

But you use it in the mores stupid way because you made your houses by using the middle age technique called framing in wood. Then a little of wind and blows up the whole house and left the foundation in bricks and the chimney like in the cartoons.

Your houses are made of wood frames and plywood even 2 and 3 stores. As you can see here.


This if what we call shanty town houses made of wood and plywood.

And I start really think you are from Tijuana as the more ignorant yank knows that.
72 Zethee (#) Oct 20th, 2010 - 10:32 am Report abuse
“for the fact that the US has had a recession at all indicates its economy is not as steady as you're implying.”

Most of the worlds big economys went into recession. It happens, in every nation.

“But which of those two countries do economists worldwide call a fast-growing one? Is that India or the US? ”

None of those economists say that it's growing faster than the US or it's stronger than the US, which is what you are.

India is growing fast compaired to economys in it's range. - None of these economists are compairing it's growth to the US.

With argentina, you are.

There is absolutely no way you can say that your nation is growing faster than the US when the US yearly economic growth is almost as much as your entire GDP. There isn't any way around it.

For economys in your range, your growth is very good. But you can't and shouldn't compare yourself with big economys.
73 NicoDin (#) Oct 20th, 2010 - 02:42 pm Report abuse

Apparently Forgetit87 its not Argie he is Brazilian according with his own citation in somewhere post.
I don't remember now.

BTW read it well the charts and even if they don't say literately the figures shows so.

: )
74 Zethee (#) Oct 20th, 2010 - 08:05 pm Report abuse
Yeah i know he isn't Argentinian i just forget when typing.

I'm not arguing that on paper it's a higher percent. But in real terms it's just not comparable. Argentina's economy would have to grow about 80% a year and the US' economy would have to stay at around 1.2% growth for argentina to have a higher GDP growth increase than the US.

There are better countrys to compare argentina with.

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