Clarin group heirs DNA-test negative to 1975/76 families, victims of dictatorship
DNA tests on the adopted children of Argentina’s most powerful media family have failed to show any matches in a national gene bank where families of victims of the dictatorship (1976/1983) have donated their DNA.
The Grupo Clarin company was celebrating the negative results Saturday in its newspapers, websites and television and radio stations, saying it's now clear that after many years of legal battles, Ernestina Herrara de Noble never illegally adopted the babies of political prisoners and that the government of Argentina has been persecuting her in an attempt to control the nation's media.
However human rights groups including the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, says the work isn't done.
So far, the DNA of Marcela and Felipe Noble (in their thirties) have been compared only to people known to have been detained and disappeared in 1975 and 1976. They also argue that the National Gene Bank is constantly being updated with new samples despite the military junta's efforts to remove any trace of their opponents. This year alone they've sought court orders to open 40 graves to collect more DNA.
The next step is to check the 1977 gene bank, while human rights groups seek more samples from families of victims for whom the comparisons were inconclusive.
Lawyers for the Noble family say the case should now be thrown out. But by law, human rights groups say, the comparisons must continue as the database grows.
The issue has become highly political involving the administration of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, human rights groups supported and financed by the government and the Clarin media, the most powerful and influential in Argentina.
The Noble children had fought for years to limit the investigation into their background to the two families who initially sued their adoptive mother. Previous attempts to obtain reliable samples from them failed either because the courts failed to maintain the chain of custody over the material or because samples taken from their clothing were contaminated.
They finally consented to donating their DNA directly to the bank on June 24.
The work of the lab's scientists is being overseen by Judge Sandra Arroyo and monitored by representatives of both sides.
The Grandmothers group has helped identify 104 children who were stolen from their mothers shortly after birth in clandestine detention centres, and believes about 400 others have yet to be found.
The Noble children have insisted on their right to determine their own identity, and have fiercely defended their adoptive mother, whose media conglomerate has been engaged in an interminable power struggle with President Cristina Fernandez.
Her administration has passed laws making DNA tests mandatory for adopted children suspected of being stolen babies and a media bill which targets the dismembering of large groups, obviously such as Clarin.
Usually not too distant from Argentine governments, given its massive interests in television, broadcasting and print, the Clarin group was blacklisted by the current Cristina Fernandez administration when they openly supported the 2008 farmers’ strike, one of her government’s major setbacks.
Clarin is the Spanish language newspaper with the largest circulation in the world.
Suggested Stories
-
May 25th 2013
All ready for the massive ‘decade won’ celebration of ten years of Kirchnerite rule
-
May 25th 2013
Falkland Islands elected lawmaker will attend C24 regional seminar in Ecuador
-
May 24th 2013
As the US before IMF lines up behind Argentina in the litigation with hedge funds
-
May 24th 2013
Argentina raids factory of US investor head of a hedge fund litigating defaulted sovereign bonds
76 comments Feed
Note: Comments do not reflect MercoPress’ opinions. They are the personal view of our users. We wish to keep this as open and unregulated as possible. However, rude or foul language, discriminative comments (based on ethnicity, religion, gender, nationality, sexual orientation or the sort), spamming or any other offensive or inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated. Please report any inadequate posts to the editor. Comments must be in English. Thank you.
Argentina is sounding more and more like an Orwellian society.
Where are all those CFK supporters when the result they want does not materialize?
Educate yourselves….
www.taringa.net/posts/noticias/10083919/Confesiones-del-nieto-recuperado-N_-102.html
www.abuelas.org.ar/
Come on, old fellow - surely you can put together some words of your own on the outcome of this smear campaign.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8617707/News-of-the-World-phone-hacking-live.html
Changing subjects again thicko?
I am happy to discuss the NOTW/hacking in another thread. I am sure there will be further reporting on the story.
Hebe and the whole “gang” should be in jail for tax evasion and misuse of public funds, but you and I know that NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!
Argentine politics is like a pendulum , today is on the far left but tomorrow? who knows ...... and pay back is a bitch !!!!!
www.infobae.com/notas/594032-Fundacion-Madres-de-Plaza-de-Mayo-omitio-declarar-un-fondo-millonario.html
www.estatevaults.com/bol/archives/2007/01/16/recovered_grand.html
How can anyone who believes in democracy and individual freedoms even sit there and be comfortable with a government that forces people who face no criminal charges to have their DNA tested.
Such actions are only found in Fascist or Communist states (q argument that far left and far right are one in the same entity). Is it that Argentina does not believe in individual freedom and human rights?
Let’s say that you were a happy young man with a beautiful Russian wife and a sweet baby boy….
Let’s say that both grandmothers were just crazy about that little toddler…
Let’s say that your and your wife had the misfortune to be kidnapped and killed by an Orwellian system…
Let’s say that you son was appropriated by the very same person that murdered you both….
Let’s say that both grandmothers dedicated the rest of their lifes to recuperate their grandson…
Let’s say that they finally find that sweet baby boy, now a man in his thirties...
Let’s say that that young man, being the genetical product of upright people, is loyal to whom he believes to be his father…..
Do I have to continue?
There is something that you must undertsand once and for all, if in the past there was a state that let babies to be stolen, and tortured and killed planty of people, it's absolutly necesary that in a democracy like our's, the state restors the true identity to those people, and judges the crimes of the dictatorship, it's an obligation of the state, in democratic times.
Before nestor kirchner, only raul alfonsin could judge the militar junta, but the tortures enjoyed a shamefull amnesty.
In the case of the stolen babies, the election of these adult people is not relevant, because it's an obligation of the state to judge the robbers who stole them from their true parients.
Beside, nor c. f. k., nor any other member of the government said the marcela and felipe are sons of desappeared people, the government only said that they must be submited to the dna test, like in all the rest of cases where there are suspicions of this kind of delits. However all the chanels belonging to the clarin group, and many of the politicians who are funtional to that corporation started a terrible campain to make believe the population that marcela and felipe are victims of a politic persecution, but what they dont say is that this cause is in the hands of the justice since 2001, ¿dont you think it's to much time?, this supossed politic persecution could have finished many years ego if they accepted to be submited to the dna test, and compare it with all the families that are found at the b. n. d. g.
Regardless of what I may feel or desire if I was personally affected, the rights of the individual are paramount. Otherwise the state continues to adopt Orwelian traits. At times, actions are so terrible that they cannot be mitigated as trying to do so involves the committing of another abuse of human rights.
Arranza !!
do you read this page ?! ... you insensitive woman !!
A quien se le ocurre que la Sra de Noble (multi millonaria), se va a arriesgar a adoptar a esos chicos en cuestion ????
People, this is about a Political attack to the media and not a case of grandma looking for the “nietos”, quien se come este verso ???????
How come Clarin cannot sell at Central Market??? Nobody answered !!!!
“” Bigotito “” visited Argentina recently !
very perilous concern !
she found a kid in a basket in front of her house? do you call that regular or common
why didnt they compare their ADN with all the ADN of the Bank of Mothers??
ARTILLERO: El que se come el verso evidentemente sos vos.
You are very misinformed, if this is a politic persecution, it could have finished many years ego, however, the clarin group decided to delay the question.
in february of 2003, ernestina herrera wrote an open letter, published in her newspaper where she said that she talked with her sons about the posibility that maybe their biologic parients were victims of the iligal repression, but last year marcela and felipe said that they never had any indication that shows that they can be sons of dessapeared people.
Anyway, beyond the contradictions of these people, this is not only a matter of individual rights, because there is a denounce of appropiation of babies, so, the appropiators must be judged, that's why it can't depend only on the will of marcela and felipe, justice must intervene.
Beside nor the grondmothers, nor the government said that they are sons of desappeared people, they only said that marcela and felipe must be submited to the dna test, to know if they are or not the children that they are looking for.
BEEF: The appropiators of babies muts be judged, so, the dna test is not only a matter of individual rights, justice must intervene, because the dna test is the only one way to know if a delit was commited or not.
JERRY: In spite that you insulted me, and didn't give any argument, i will tell you that if you were a relative of terrorists, you have right to not your connection is known, but you biologic family has right to know if you are alive or not, that's why you must be submitted to the dna test, justice must intervene, because the appropiators who stole you from your parients must be judged, so, the dna test is not only a matter of individual rights.
You have the privilege of being able to test peoples DNA and live in a much freer society than you previously could, but you also have the principles you choose to live by when you returned to democracy. A state that prefers its privileges over its principles soon looses both!
Once you abandon justice for the individual you abandon justice for your society. That is a historical fact that has been demonstrated countless times.
“Muchas veces he hablado con mis hijos sobre la posibilidad de que ellos y sus padres hayan sido víctimas de la represión ilegal”
Many times I've talked to my son and daughter about the possibility that them and their parents were victims of illegal repression.
That aforementioned young man has no right to refuse to submit a DNA sample.
He is, of course, not guilty of any crime but he is the only existing evidence of a imprescriptible crime against humanity.
As such, he is compelled by Argentinean law to provide all the necessary DNA samples to the Court.
The Argentinean law is absolutely clear in this respect.
This legislation has been democratically approved by an overwhelming majority in Parliament and created in close cooperation with and patronization of the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR).
May be I lived in the US too long , for the government to order me a DNA test is a HUGE violation of my rights as an individual !!!
@34 Beef, you are right on the money !!
Miss information is not equal to being BRAINWASHED !!
Stop being so sanctimonious…………..
In the UK, the DNA of every citizen “questioned” by the police is stored on the National DNA Database.
Yes; JUST QUESTIONED...Not charged...., not convicted…. Just questioned……
At present, about 6,5 million Brits DNA is stored for life in the database….
If you don’t believe me ask Redhoyt……… He is an Ex-Copper…. He knows…
Or you could choose to educate yourself…………..
Anyway I do not agree with the inclusion of individuals on the UK DNA database that have not been charged, much in the same way that I do not agree that it is right to force two people to have their DNA tested when they are not even being implicated in any crime.
The existence of a UK DNA database however has nothing to do with this story and your apparent disregard for the rights of the individual.
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/dna-database
Two wrongs don't make a right.
You say:
”I do not agree that it is right to force two people to have their DNA tested when they are not even being implicated in any crime.”
I say:
Not implicated? ……………..Not implicated ???
They are, of course, not guilty of any crime butvery possibly the victims and the only existing evidence of a imprescriptible crime against humanity.“
” The victims and the only existing evidence of a crime.“
”Victims and only existing evidence“
” Victims and evidence“
Isn’t that “Implication” enough?
Your government have however created two victims, much in the same way as your dictatorship created victims through its crimes (accepted that the nature of the crimes may be different but the arguments still stands).
A state forcing people to undergo DNA testing when they are not even being accused of criminality is an invasion of civil/individual liberty and can not be accepted by a democratic system that is founded on protection of individual rights. No argument you can present can take away this basic fact.
Like I have said, many grave crimes cannot be mitigated and in defense of our principles of freedom and individual liberty such crimes have to be consigned to the pages of history and learnt from, so as not to be repeated again.
This 'process' has not been undertaken by the powers that be for humanitarian reasons, it is a hounding of the critical media through the hounding of these two adopted individuals.
It is truely sordid and cynical.
And, as for Think's analysis that these two hounded individuals provide 'the only existing evidence of a . . crime against humanity', this is so patently untrue.
For God's sake get off the backs of these individuals and let the clarin get back to doing what is necessary - calling the /government to task wrt the quality of its performance.
Such arguments are simply regurgitated non critical reflections of basic Benthamism ignoring the fact that the protection of individual liberty is actually the greater good as it protects the freedom of all citizens.
It will not please the CFK brigade or the “chip on shoulder” communists but there is no viable argument they can present which is reconcilable with modern democratic principles.
Is like the meeting between Oyarbide (judge) and Hebe de Solari(head of Madres de Plaza de Mayo) to discuss the Shocklender case .... the Judge and the person implicated in the miss used of public funds , talking about the case?? jajajajajaja!!! that's Justice Made in Argentina.
@45 Right on the money again !!
thanks for your posting at #47.
I guess you are saying that it is probably in the greater good to abuse the human rights of just two individuals in order to potentially expose and publicise the human wrongs perpetrated some time ago, and, where appropriate, try to rectify historic wrongs.
It's an argument.
And it's 'water under the bridge' now; the analysis is done, the results are in the public domain, and we are no further ahead.
Perhaps, in a controlled (military) society and in order to avoid partial human rights issues, it would be OK to DNA test all the people alive and able to procreate at the time (1970-) and all those born since the same time, but this would set up the greater human rights issue of abuse of the nation's human rights.
And how could a 'civilian' Government do this without being Totalitarian and without the active agreement of the military?
No, it is in everybody's greater interest to let this issue go quietly back into the locked & dusty closet of history - as it will do, once the Presidential election is over.
I know, Aranza is the real mother of Felipe & Marcela !
she is alive and lives at a warm city.
#(31)
**Bigote ** ( R.Alfredo) is the son of Hebe.
tell us geoff about individual human rights taking in care by the UK with the chagossians??
the indians, the africans, the afghanistan and libyian people, innocents that are being killed every day??Unwinnable wars, and oil is all behind the real interest why you are there. Where is justice there?? who defends their individual human rights?? I see your militar forces abusing of human rights all over the world, not the argentines precisamente. Get facts.
BEEF and GA3: I respect your opinions, but i dont agree on them, in some cases the dna test is not a matter of individual rights, because the appropiation of babies is a delit, and the only one way to know if the person was appropiated, is with the dna test, so, it can't depend only on the will of the victim, it's necesary that justice intervenes, because the appropiators must be judged, if the victim is never submited to the dna test, nobody wont never know the truth.
ARTILLERO: I never said that you are brainwashed, i only said that you are misinformed, it's true that ernestina is a millioner, that explains why this question takes many years in the justice.
What was done to these people was wrong, plain and simple. Even Think has had to concede based in his comment at 46!
I'm not trying to be confrontational with you or anybody else on this matter. I understand that, 40 years on, 500 families in Argentina have this focussed memory of their loss, and that thousands have a memory of other losses in this dirty period of internicene strife.
I am at a loss to find a better solution other than the one I outline in #50, but I recognise that this would bring more downside than upside.
Hence my final sentence.
I have addressed the echoes of empire many times, empires of all types - British, German, Spanish, Austro-Hungarian, Chinese, French, American (USA), Roman, Greek, Russian (USSR), etc, etc. Disengagement can be difficult and can result in many deaths - eg. India-Pakistan partition prior to independence; like the creation of Israel and the subsequent 6 Day War, etc.
Justice is frequently the 'best overall option' in intractible circumstances. Human Rights is an issue that occurs when intractibility brings more justice to some parties than others.
Don't have knowledge or present opinion on Chagos (?) and how many people died, but I antipicate that the substantive issue will be one of bases around the world to stabilise global zones, where the absence of 'a presence' would lead to uncontrolled and potentially warfare-aided land/oil grabs, etc.
As you say “Get facts”, - I will look at this, but it is unlikely ever to be a topic on Mercopress site.
Ok People, let me describe this in a few words, THE TIMING (key word) OF THIS INVESTIGATION SMELLS LIKE A PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST CLARIN, because the newspaper criticize the actual government. Is TOO OBVIOUS and don't try to sell this bullshit story about Human rights
Beef 3 , Think 0 Final score?
“that explains why this question takes many years in the justice.....” Unless you are in the Military and for sure the Justice works FASTER somehow.
Let me remind you that during Alfonsin times, we were judged and prosecuted with laws that didn't exit at that time , what is it called?? RETROACTIVE LAW??? How can they judge you for a law that didn't exist at the time of the suppose crime ?????
Cheers from the USA!
What is more important is the preservation if individual liberties which ultimately preserve our collective rights. This episode has acted as a good example for this argument and it looks like we have reached a conclusion to the debate.
Hope it was stimulating and enlightening for those involved.
@60
Thank you for input
ARTILLERO: I respect your opinion but i dont agree on it, this is evident that you dont know planty of important facts about this question.
The noble herrera case is in the hands of the justice since 2001, 10 years, and the cause was paralized, i dont care about the fight betwen clarin and the government, i only want to know if marcela and felipe are or not the grandchildren that the grondmothers from plaza de mayo are looking for.
On the other hand, it was prouved that adoption was illigal, so, it must be judged, beside, if they decided to delay the question, they can't argue about any politic persecution, i suggest you not to read only clarin, read also others newspapers, no matter if they are offitialist, the point is that all the newspapers and chanels omit information, that's why it's necesary to read diferent points of view.
BEEF: I have an answer for you in my comment 53.
By forcing them to undergo a DNA test an injustice has been committed and two injustices are just that. Once cannot mitigate the other.
It is not hard to grasp.
l '>
El levantamiento de los “carapintadas” asi como el populacho lo nombra, no fue en contra de Alfonsin, la Constitucion y la puta democracia sino que fue un movimiento para defender la Institucion y sus integrantes, me entiende Marquitos??? (en tono afectivo y no se ofenda)
Ji uas not.
Ji uas olredi in de Unaited Steits
Pur felou......., je oluais mises de accion.............
Wasn't McChrystal dismissed in Afghanistan for just comments?
Can you imagine a military uprising in Yankeelandia?
Guantanamo maybe?
precisely true !!
@68 me fui un par de meses antes , de no haber sido asi, te juro que todavia estaria en cana !!!!!!!
Pupil identity, DNA, etc will be held overtly and covertly by governments, Homeland Security, and the Security arm of our national government.
'Timed-out' records will not be removed, even though they are, at present, supposed to be;
and in the fullness of time the global population will have genetic identity in data banks.
We are just in the phase where national personal & biological records are incomplete.
In 50 years we will look back on today and wonder what all the fuss was about:
“You DNA is your Friend.
We are your Friend.
Friends protect Friends,
What We Know We Can Protect,
Trust Your Friend”
you seems somewhat hectic & irritable ! why ! be calm please !
The abuse of power of this government is ridiculous ....
their culture is based on violence since they are always in war. Violence is a learned behaviour.
how many people they have killed in afghanistan? not less than 1.00.000 for stability yes.....more than 15 years of war. the same in iraq, libya and before all over the world.
and then the militar abuses they commit .......impunes.
their jails seems full and with lots of suicides sooooooooo
you are not example of nothing. we dont need your opinnion about this article. not entitled to say anything. look how you are at home first.
www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/pris-s06.shtml
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!