Saturday, July 16th 2011 - 17:19 UTC

Clarin group heirs DNA-test negative to 1975/76 families, victims of dictatorship

DNA tests on the adopted children of Argentina’s most powerful media family have failed to show any matches in a national gene bank where families of victims of the dictatorship (1976/1983) have donated their DNA.

First round for Marcela and Felipe in the ongoing political battle with the government of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner

The Grupo Clarin company was celebrating the negative results Saturday in its newspapers, websites and television and radio stations, saying it's now clear that after many years of legal battles, Ernestina Herrara de Noble never illegally adopted the babies of political prisoners and that the government of Argentina has been persecuting her in an attempt to control the nation's media.

However human rights groups including the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, says the work isn't done.

So far, the DNA of Marcela and Felipe Noble (in their thirties) have been compared only to people known to have been detained and disappeared in 1975 and 1976. They also argue that the National Gene Bank is constantly being updated with new samples despite the military junta's efforts to remove any trace of their opponents. This year alone they've sought court orders to open 40 graves to collect more DNA.

The next step is to check the 1977 gene bank, while human rights groups seek more samples from families of victims for whom the comparisons were inconclusive.

Lawyers for the Noble family say the case should now be thrown out. But by law, human rights groups say, the comparisons must continue as the database grows.

The issue has become highly political involving the administration of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, human rights groups supported and financed by the government and the Clarin media, the most powerful and influential in Argentina.

The Noble children had fought for years to limit the investigation into their background to the two families who initially sued their adoptive mother. Previous attempts to obtain reliable samples from them failed either because the courts failed to maintain the chain of custody over the material or because samples taken from their clothing were contaminated.

They finally consented to donating their DNA directly to the bank on June 24.

The work of the lab's scientists is being overseen by Judge Sandra Arroyo and monitored by representatives of both sides.

The Grandmothers group has helped identify 104 children who were stolen from their mothers shortly after birth in clandestine detention centres, and believes about 400 others have yet to be found.

The Noble children have insisted on their right to determine their own identity, and have fiercely defended their adoptive mother, whose media conglomerate has been engaged in an interminable power struggle with President Cristina Fernandez.

Her administration has passed laws making DNA tests mandatory for adopted children suspected of being stolen babies and a media bill which targets the dismembering of large groups, obviously such as Clarin.

Usually not too distant from Argentine governments, given its massive interests in television, broadcasting and print, the Clarin group was blacklisted by the current Cristina Fernandez administration when they openly supported the 2008 farmers’ strike, one of her government’s major setbacks.

Clarin is the Spanish language newspaper with the largest circulation in the world.
 

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1 ptolemy (#) Jul 16th, 2011 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
“Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, says the work isn't done.” The work will never be done as long as this government is power; political persecution plain and simple.
2 jorge ferreiro (#) Jul 16th, 2011 - 09:44 pm Report abuse
What will the reprehensible, power hungry CFK do now? Strong arm tactics, smear tactics, lies and deceit are the typical Peronist tool kit. Look for more slime from Collagen Lips herself.
3 Beef (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 06:15 am Report abuse
According to CFK they are guilty, despite what the evidence says. This forced DNA testing is a blatant attack on human rights.

Argentina is sounding more and more like an Orwellian society.

Where are all those CFK supporters when the result they want does not materialize?
4 jerry (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 06:23 am Report abuse
Do not worry. CFK and the “Grandmothers” will all deny that they had anything to do with mess!
5 Redhoyt (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 06:29 am Report abuse
Should have given the samples to Indec ...... they'd have proved that the heirs were definitely the offspring of chickens, .... and were only growing at the rate of 9% every couple of months!!
6 ElaineB (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 08:38 am Report abuse
I assume other people have been forced to take DNA tests?
7 jerry (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 05:33 pm Report abuse
#6 - No, nobody else.
8 Artillero601 (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 06:37 pm Report abuse
@7 which it proves the theory of CFK going after “Clarin” (the newspaper) , freedom of expression ? nah !! democracy? neither.
9 Think (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 07:55 pm Report abuse
Turnips of the world
Educate yourselves….

www.taringa.net/posts/noticias/10083919/Confesiones-del-nieto-recuperado-N_-102.html

www.abuelas.org.ar/
10 ElaineB (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 07:55 pm Report abuse
I don't know who is advising CFK but she needs a change of staff. Mindlessly jumping on every emotional bandwagon - then falling off - undermines her credibility. Eventually even her most ardent fans will have a problem defending her.
11 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 09:14 pm Report abuse
No Think - No Comment.
Come on, old fellow - surely you can put together some words of your own on the outcome of this smear campaign.
12 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 17th, 2011 - 10:39 pm Report abuse
Ask Scotland Yard chief to investigate ! .....sorry too late :-(

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8617707/News-of-the-World-phone-hacking-live.html
13 Beef (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 05:41 am Report abuse
Marcos - what has the phone hacking story got to do with your glorious leaders blatant abuse of the civil liberties of two of your countrymen?

Changing subjects again thicko?
14 ElaineB (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 09:27 am Report abuse
I think that is straight out of CFK's book. A tricky issue to discuss so try to divert attention by changing the subject.

I am happy to discuss the NOTW/hacking in another thread. I am sure there will be further reporting on the story.
15 Artillero601 (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 12:40 pm Report abuse
@ 9

Hebe and the whole “gang” should be in jail for tax evasion and misuse of public funds, but you and I know that NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!

Argentine politics is like a pendulum , today is on the far left but tomorrow? who knows ...... and pay back is a bitch !!!!!
16 GA3 (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 12:44 pm Report abuse
and this is the reason why :

www.infobae.com/notas/594032-Fundacion-Madres-de-Plaza-de-Mayo-omitio-declarar-un-fondo-millonario.html
17 Artillero601 (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 01:46 pm Report abuse
and why is the “Clarin” newspaper not allowed to be sold in the Central Market ?
18 Beef (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 01:47 pm Report abuse
Paying back is something Argentina avoids at all costs!
19 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 03:21 pm Report abuse
“For three decades, the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, formed by mothers of the disappeared, have struggled to find their surviving grandchildren. They have scoured birth records, filed lawsuits, and established a DNA bank with samples from thousands of relatives. Thanks to their efforts, DOZENS of children were reunited with their families, but hundreds more, now adults, remained undiscovered”

www.estatevaults.com/bol/archives/2007/01/16/recovered_grand.html
20 jerry (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 03:46 pm Report abuse
If I were a relative of terrorists and murderers, I do not think I would want my connection known!
21 ptolemy (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 06:59 pm Report abuse
#6 .......www.argentinaindependent.com/currentaffairs/newsroundups/roundupsargentina/abuelas-of-plaza-de-mayo-recover-grandchild-n%C2%BA-102-/
22 Beef (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 07:11 pm Report abuse
But Marcos, DNA test have shown that this pair are not two of those taken forcibly away from their families.

How can anyone who believes in democracy and individual freedoms even sit there and be comfortable with a government that forces people who face no criminal charges to have their DNA tested.

Such actions are only found in Fascist or Communist states (q argument that far left and far right are one in the same entity). Is it that Argentina does not believe in individual freedom and human rights?
23 Think (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
Mr Beef:

Let’s say that you were a happy young man with a beautiful Russian wife and a sweet baby boy….

Let’s say that both grandmothers were just crazy about that little toddler…

Let’s say that your and your wife had the misfortune to be kidnapped and killed by an Orwellian system…

Let’s say that you son was appropriated by the very same person that murdered you both….

Let’s say that both grandmothers dedicated the rest of their lifes to recuperate their grandson…

Let’s say that they finally find that sweet baby boy, now a man in his thirties...

Let’s say that that young man, being the genetical product of upright people, is loyal to whom he believes to be his father…..

Do I have to continue?
24 axel arg (#) Jul 18th, 2011 - 08:17 pm Report abuse
In spite that the information that you read about my country is always partial, this article is very complete.
There is something that you must undertsand once and for all, if in the past there was a state that let babies to be stolen, and tortured and killed planty of people, it's absolutly necesary that in a democracy like our's, the state restors the true identity to those people, and judges the crimes of the dictatorship, it's an obligation of the state, in democratic times.
Before nestor kirchner, only raul alfonsin could judge the militar junta, but the tortures enjoyed a shamefull amnesty.
In the case of the stolen babies, the election of these adult people is not relevant, because it's an obligation of the state to judge the robbers who stole them from their true parients.
Beside, nor c. f. k., nor any other member of the government said the marcela and felipe are sons of desappeared people, the government only said that they must be submited to the dna test, like in all the rest of cases where there are suspicions of this kind of delits. However all the chanels belonging to the clarin group, and many of the politicians who are funtional to that corporation started a terrible campain to make believe the population that marcela and felipe are victims of a politic persecution, but what they dont say is that this cause is in the hands of the justice since 2001, ¿dont you think it's to much time?, this supossed politic persecution could have finished many years ego if they accepted to be submited to the dna test, and compare it with all the families that are found at the b. n. d. g.
25 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 02:36 am Report abuse
Beef, Do you get the point now?
26 jerry (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 05:27 am Report abuse
23-24-25 - You are all full of bull sh- it! If you had a brain, you would take it out and play with it. (PUNTO)
27 Beef (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 05:53 am Report abuse
No, I don't get the point. I can see that a lot of terrible crimes happened in the past and those that are responsible should be brought to account. Two wrongs do not however make a right and forcing people to have DNA tests (when they themselves are not guilty of any crime) is a blatant abuse of individual liberties.

Regardless of what I may feel or desire if I was personally affected, the rights of the individual are paramount. Otherwise the state continues to adopt Orwelian traits. At times, actions are so terrible that they cannot be mitigated as trying to do so involves the committing of another abuse of human rights.
28 geo (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 10:15 am Report abuse
[]

Arranza !!

do you read this page ?! ... you insensitive woman !!
29 Artillero601 (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 12:50 pm Report abuse
@26 right, as always!!

A quien se le ocurre que la Sra de Noble (multi millonaria), se va a arriesgar a adoptar a esos chicos en cuestion ????

People, this is about a Political attack to the media and not a case of grandma looking for the “nietos”, quien se come este verso ???????

How come Clarin cannot sell at Central Market??? Nobody answered !!!!
30 GA3 (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 01:43 pm Report abuse
“cannot be sold ....” my grammar sucks!
31 geo (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 01:45 pm Report abuse
[] -- Artio

“” Bigotito “” visited Argentina recently !

very perilous concern !
32 malen (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 01:49 pm Report abuse
and artillero why did la señora de noble dont make the adoption in regular situations?
she found a kid in a basket in front of her house? do you call that regular or common
why didnt they compare their ADN with all the ADN of the Bank of Mothers??
33 axel arg (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 02:01 pm Report abuse
ARTILLERO601. BEEF. JERRY.
ARTILLERO: El que se come el verso evidentemente sos vos.
You are very misinformed, if this is a politic persecution, it could have finished many years ego, however, the clarin group decided to delay the question.
in february of 2003, ernestina herrera wrote an open letter, published in her newspaper where she said that she talked with her sons about the posibility that maybe their biologic parients were victims of the iligal repression, but last year marcela and felipe said that they never had any indication that shows that they can be sons of dessapeared people.
Anyway, beyond the contradictions of these people, this is not only a matter of individual rights, because there is a denounce of appropiation of babies, so, the appropiators must be judged, that's why it can't depend only on the will of marcela and felipe, justice must intervene.
Beside nor the grondmothers, nor the government said that they are sons of desappeared people, they only said that marcela and felipe must be submited to the dna test, to know if they are or not the children that they are looking for.
BEEF: The appropiators of babies muts be judged, so, the dna test is not only a matter of individual rights, justice must intervene, because the dna test is the only one way to know if a delit was commited or not.
JERRY: In spite that you insulted me, and didn't give any argument, i will tell you that if you were a relative of terrorists, you have right to not your connection is known, but you biologic family has right to know if you are alive or not, that's why you must be submitted to the dna test, justice must intervene, because the appropiators who stole you from your parients must be judged, so, the dna test is not only a matter of individual rights.
34 Beef (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 02:32 pm Report abuse
Axel - The option to be tested is a matter for the individual to decide. As a baby they would have not been complicit and are therefore by default innocent. The priority of a democratic state is to preserve the individual liberties of all its citizens. That is “justice” so justice cannot force an innocent individual to undergo such a DNA test as by default that is an injustice. Like I said, one injustice cannot be undone by another injustice.

You have the privilege of being able to test peoples DNA and live in a much freer society than you previously could, but you also have the principles you choose to live by when you returned to democracy. A state that prefers its privileges over its principles soon looses both!

Once you abandon justice for the individual you abandon justice for your society. That is a historical fact that has been demonstrated countless times.
35 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
Ernestina Herrera de Noble
“Muchas veces he hablado con mis hijos sobre la posibilidad de que ellos y sus padres hayan sido víctimas de la represión ilegal”

Many times I've talked to my son and daughter about the possibility that them and their parents were victims of illegal repression.
36 Think (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 04:30 pm Report abuse
Well It seems I will have to continue with my post No.23…………..........................

That aforementioned young man has no right to refuse to submit a DNA sample.

He is, of course, not guilty of any crime but he is the only existing evidence of a imprescriptible crime against humanity.

As such, he is compelled by Argentinean law to provide all the necessary DNA samples to the Court.

The Argentinean law is absolutely clear in this respect.

This legislation has been democratically approved by an overwhelming majority in Parliament and created in close cooperation with and patronization of the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR).
37 GA3 (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 05:15 pm Report abuse
@33

May be I lived in the US too long , for the government to order me a DNA test is a HUGE violation of my rights as an individual !!!

@34 Beef, you are right on the money !!
38 Artillero601 (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 05:22 pm Report abuse
Axel , aca no hay verso hermano. Ernestina de Noble tiene guita para adoptar chicos de Marte si quiere.

Miss information is not equal to being BRAINWASHED !!
39 Think (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
(34) Mr. Beef……

Stop being so sanctimonious…………..

In the UK, the DNA of every citizen “questioned” by the police is stored on the National DNA Database.

Yes; JUST QUESTIONED...Not charged...., not convicted…. Just questioned……
At present, about 6,5 million Brits DNA is stored for life in the database….

If you don’t believe me ask Redhoyt……… He is an Ex-Copper…. He knows…
Or you could choose to educate yourself…………..
40 Beef (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 07:28 pm Report abuse
Actually think, you do have to be arrested and questioned at a police station to be included on the DNA database.

Anyway I do not agree with the inclusion of individuals on the UK DNA database that have not been charged, much in the same way that I do not agree that it is right to force two people to have their DNA tested when they are not even being implicated in any crime.

The existence of a UK DNA database however has nothing to do with this story and your apparent disregard for the rights of the individual.
41 JustinKuntz (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 07:43 pm Report abuse
The current UK rules on DNA retention were ruled illegal, the lawmakers are in the process of rectifying that.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/dna-database

Two wrongs don't make a right.
42 Think (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 08:02 pm Report abuse
(40) Beef

You say:
”I do not agree that it is right to force two people to have their DNA tested when they are not even being implicated in any crime.”

I say:
Not implicated? ……………..Not implicated ???

They are, of course, not guilty of any crime butvery possibly the victims and the only existing evidence of a imprescriptible crime against humanity.“
” The victims and the only existing evidence of a crime.“
”Victims and only existing evidence“
” Victims and evidence“

Isn’t that “Implication” enough?
43 Beef (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 09:13 pm Report abuse
By whose definition are they victims Think? Yours, your governments??? It is clear they did not perceive themselves as victims and as such it is their fundamental human right to decline such treatment at the hands of their government. After all they have been subjected to a medical procedure without being given the right of refusal and have not given their “informed consent”.

Your government have however created two victims, much in the same way as your dictatorship created victims through its crimes (accepted that the nature of the crimes may be different but the arguments still stands).

A state forcing people to undergo DNA testing when they are not even being accused of criminality is an invasion of civil/individual liberty and can not be accepted by a democratic system that is founded on protection of individual rights. No argument you can present can take away this basic fact.

Like I have said, many grave crimes cannot be mitigated and in defense of our principles of freedom and individual liberty such crimes have to be consigned to the pages of history and learnt from, so as not to be repeated again.
44 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 09:19 pm Report abuse
Beef is spot-on with his analysis and comments.
This 'process' has not been undertaken by the powers that be for humanitarian reasons, it is a hounding of the critical media through the hounding of these two adopted individuals.
It is truely sordid and cynical.
And, as for Think's analysis that these two hounded individuals provide 'the only existing evidence of a . . crime against humanity', this is so patently untrue.

For God's sake get off the backs of these individuals and let the clarin get back to doing what is necessary - calling the /government to task wrt the quality of its performance.
45 Beef (#) Jul 19th, 2011 - 09:27 pm Report abuse
Any argument that this action was acceptable is full of holes for those that claim Argentina to be a modern democracy.

Such arguments are simply regurgitated non critical reflections of basic Benthamism ignoring the fact that the protection of individual liberty is actually the greater good as it protects the freedom of all citizens.

It will not please the CFK brigade or the “chip on shoulder” communists but there is no viable argument they can present which is reconcilable with modern democratic principles.
46 Think (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:29 am Report abuse
What a pair of haughty turnips…………..
47 malen (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:34 am
Comment removed by the editor.
48 Artillero601 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:54 am Report abuse
@46 @47

Is like the meeting between Oyarbide (judge) and Hebe de Solari(head of Madres de Plaza de Mayo) to discuss the Shocklender case .... the Judge and the person implicated in the miss used of public funds , talking about the case?? jajajajajaja!!! that's Justice Made in Argentina.

@45 Right on the money again !!
49 Beef (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 05:34 am Report abuse
So Think, when you have no coherent counter argument or theorietical support for your argument you resort to calling people a “turnip”. Hmmm how disconcerting?
50 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 06:54 am Report abuse
OK, Malen,
thanks for your posting at #47.
I guess you are saying that it is probably in the greater good to abuse the human rights of just two individuals in order to potentially expose and publicise the human wrongs perpetrated some time ago, and, where appropriate, try to rectify historic wrongs.
It's an argument.
And it's 'water under the bridge' now; the analysis is done, the results are in the public domain, and we are no further ahead.

Perhaps, in a controlled (military) society and in order to avoid partial human rights issues, it would be OK to DNA test all the people alive and able to procreate at the time (1970-) and all those born since the same time, but this would set up the greater human rights issue of abuse of the nation's human rights.
And how could a 'civilian' Government do this without being Totalitarian and without the active agreement of the military?

No, it is in everybody's greater interest to let this issue go quietly back into the locked & dusty closet of history - as it will do, once the Presidential election is over.
51 ed (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 08:11 am Report abuse
#(28)
I know, Aranza is the real mother of Felipe & Marcela !
she is alive and lives at a warm city.

#(31)
**Bigote ** ( R.Alfredo) is the son of Hebe.
52 malen (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 11:56 am Report abuse
geoffward this brothers have authorized making the test at last. We live in democracy in this was the decission of the justice.
tell us geoff about individual human rights taking in care by the UK with the chagossians??
the indians, the africans, the afghanistan and libyian people, innocents that are being killed every day??Unwinnable wars, and oil is all behind the real interest why you are there. Where is justice there?? who defends their individual human rights?? I see your militar forces abusing of human rights all over the world, not the argentines precisamente. Get facts.
53 axel arg (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:27 pm Report abuse
BEEF. ARTILLERO601. GA3.
BEEF and GA3: I respect your opinions, but i dont agree on them, in some cases the dna test is not a matter of individual rights, because the appropiation of babies is a delit, and the only one way to know if the person was appropiated, is with the dna test, so, it can't depend only on the will of the victim, it's necesary that justice intervenes, because the appropiators must be judged, if the victim is never submited to the dna test, nobody wont never know the truth.
ARTILLERO: I never said that you are brainwashed, i only said that you are misinformed, it's true that ernestina is a millioner, that explains why this question takes many years in the justice.
54 Beef (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:45 pm Report abuse
Malen - because I am Britsh you somehow think I agree with all of the things my country has done, is doing or will do in the future????? That shows you have no intellectual capacity to understand my arguments.

What was done to these people was wrong, plain and simple. Even Think has had to concede based in his comment at 46!
55 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 12:46 pm Report abuse
Hi, Malen.
I'm not trying to be confrontational with you or anybody else on this matter. I understand that, 40 years on, 500 families in Argentina have this focussed memory of their loss, and that thousands have a memory of other losses in this dirty period of internicene strife.
I am at a loss to find a better solution other than the one I outline in #50, but I recognise that this would bring more downside than upside.
Hence my final sentence.

I have addressed the echoes of empire many times, empires of all types - British, German, Spanish, Austro-Hungarian, Chinese, French, American (USA), Roman, Greek, Russian (USSR), etc, etc. Disengagement can be difficult and can result in many deaths - eg. India-Pakistan partition prior to independence; like the creation of Israel and the subsequent 6 Day War, etc.

Justice is frequently the 'best overall option' in intractible circumstances. Human Rights is an issue that occurs when intractibility brings more justice to some parties than others.

Don't have knowledge or present opinion on Chagos (?) and how many people died, but I antipicate that the substantive issue will be one of bases around the world to stabilise global zones, where the absence of 'a presence' would lead to uncontrolled and potentially warfare-aided land/oil grabs, etc.
As you say “Get facts”, - I will look at this, but it is unlikely ever to be a topic on Mercopress site.
56 Artillero601 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 01:18 pm Report abuse
Axel : Art 601 and Ga3 , same person !!

Ok People, let me describe this in a few words, THE TIMING (key word) OF THIS INVESTIGATION SMELLS LIKE A PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST CLARIN, because the newspaper criticize the actual government. Is TOO OBVIOUS and don't try to sell this bullshit story about Human rights

Beef 3 , Think 0 Final score?
57 GA3 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 01:26 pm Report abuse
@53

“that explains why this question takes many years in the justice.....” Unless you are in the Military and for sure the Justice works FASTER somehow.

Let me remind you that during Alfonsin times, we were judged and prosecuted with laws that didn't exit at that time , what is it called?? RETROACTIVE LAW??? How can they judge you for a law that didn't exist at the time of the suppose crime ?????
58 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 02:54 pm Report abuse
Were you a member of the carapintadas uprising against President Alfonsin?
59 atk357 (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
CFK calls Argentina a peacefull democracy? The moment the government starts controlling the freedom of the press it turns into a “dictatorship”.
Cheers from the USA!
60 Beef (#) Jul 20th, 2011 - 09:46 pm Report abuse
Let us leave aside the political motivations for these actions. Positions will be what politicians will be, the bastards never change.

What is more important is the preservation if individual liberties which ultimately preserve our collective rights. This episode has acted as a good example for this argument and it looks like we have reached a conclusion to the debate.

Hope it was stimulating and enlightening for those involved.
61 Artillero601 (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 04:13 am Report abuse
@58 ;-)))

@60

Thank you for input
62 axel arg (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 11:41 am Report abuse
ARTILLERO. BEEF.
ARTILLERO: I respect your opinion but i dont agree on it, this is evident that you dont know planty of important facts about this question.
The noble herrera case is in the hands of the justice since 2001, 10 years, and the cause was paralized, i dont care about the fight betwen clarin and the government, i only want to know if marcela and felipe are or not the grandchildren that the grondmothers from plaza de mayo are looking for.
On the other hand, it was prouved that adoption was illigal, so, it must be judged, beside, if they decided to delay the question, they can't argue about any politic persecution, i suggest you not to read only clarin, read also others newspapers, no matter if they are offitialist, the point is that all the newspapers and chanels omit information, that's why it's necesary to read diferent points of view.
BEEF: I have an answer for you in my comment 53.
63 Beef (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 01:00 pm Report abuse
axel - unfortunately you have made a big error of judgement. You perceive these people as victims, it is however clear that these people do not perceive themselves as victims. It is up to the individual if they wish to define themselves as a victim.

By forcing them to undergo a DNA test an injustice has been committed and two injustices are just that. Once cannot mitigate the other.

It is not hard to grasp.
64 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 03:27 pm Report abuse
@61 Yes? ,,,
l '>
65 Artillero601 (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 03:39 pm Report abuse
@64

El levantamiento de los “carapintadas” asi como el populacho lo nombra, no fue en contra de Alfonsin, la Constitucion y la puta democracia sino que fue un movimiento para defender la Institucion y sus integrantes, me entiende Marquitos??? (en tono afectivo y no se ofenda)
66 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 04:09 pm Report abuse
@65 Entendido pero, fuiste o no?
67 Think (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 04:29 pm Report abuse
No...
Ji uas not.
Ji uas olredi in de Unaited Steits
Pur felou......., je oluais mises de accion.............
68 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 04:41 pm Report abuse
Jajaja, p...madre artillero, me mareaste con tantas vueltas y me termino contestando el Think.

Wasn't McChrystal dismissed in Afghanistan for just comments?
Can you imagine a military uprising in Yankeelandia?
Guantanamo maybe?
69 geo (#) Jul 21st, 2011 - 08:20 pm Report abuse
[] - 51

precisely true !!
70 Artillero601 (#) Jul 22nd, 2011 - 12:42 am Report abuse
@67 jajajaja!!

@68 me fui un par de meses antes , de no haber sido asi, te juro que todavia estaria en cana !!!!!!!
71 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 22nd, 2011 - 04:29 am Report abuse
Lo dudo :-)
72 Forgetit86 (#) Jul 22nd, 2011 - 08:13 am Report abuse
If it's true that the Argentine legislation allows for DNA collection to happen under such circumstances, then I see no wrongdoing on the part of the government. And please, let's not resort to those so-called 'universal' and 'natural rights'. Countries apply their own legislation, not that some ideologues put out of their asses and ascribed to 'nature'.
73 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 22nd, 2011 - 10:49 am Report abuse
Almost certainly your unique biological identity will be held in national repositories, as will mine.
Pupil identity, DNA, etc will be held overtly and covertly by governments, Homeland Security, and the Security arm of our national government.
'Timed-out' records will not be removed, even though they are, at present, supposed to be;
and in the fullness of time the global population will have genetic identity in data banks.
We are just in the phase where national personal & biological records are incomplete.

In 50 years we will look back on today and wonder what all the fuss was about:

“You DNA is your Friend.
We are your Friend.
Friends protect Friends,
What We Know We Can Protect,
Trust Your Friend”
74 geo (#) Jul 22nd, 2011 - 02:25 pm Report abuse
[] -70 Artio

you seems somewhat hectic & irritable ! why ! be calm please !
75 Artillero601 (#) Jul 23rd, 2011 - 01:49 am Report abuse
@70

The abuse of power of this government is ridiculous ....
76 malen (#) Jul 23rd, 2011 - 04:32 pm Report abuse
britain is not entitled to teach nobody in human rights.
their culture is based on violence since they are always in war. Violence is a learned behaviour.
how many people they have killed in afghanistan? not less than 1.00.000 for stability yes.....more than 15 years of war. the same in iraq, libya and before all over the world.
and then the militar abuses they commit .......impunes.
their jails seems full and with lots of suicides sooooooooo
you are not example of nothing. we dont need your opinnion about this article. not entitled to say anything. look how you are at home first.
www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/pris-s06.shtml

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