Monday, October 15th 2012 - 23:08 UTC

ARA Libertad dispute in Ghana: high ranking Argentine navy officers lose their jobs

Argentina’ Defence Ministry announced on Monday that two top Navy officers had been disciplined for their responsibility in plotting the course of the training frigate ARA Libertad currently retained in Ghana on an injunction from a US based hedge fund and following a failed plea last Thursday.

Defence minister Puricelli also requested help from several South American countries and South Africa

The sanctions were imposed on the Argentine Navy secretary, Alfredo Mario Blanco and the former director of Organization and Doctrine, Luis Maria Gonzalez Day.

Defence Minister Arturo Puricelli also sent a letter to his peers from Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Venezuela, Brazil, Peru and South Africa requesting they collaborate in helping to find a solution to the controversy with the courts of Ghana. All the above mentioned countries have cadets of their navies in ARA Libertad, on invitation from the Argentine navy.

The two officers not only were disciplined but an administrative investigation was started “to establish responsibilities regarding the decision to have the tall ship ARA Libertad call in at the port of Tema in Ghana” said a release from the Defence ministry.

Gonzalez Day in statements to the media had said that the decision to visit Ghana was an “inter-ministerial decision” and the definitive evaluation of the global course of the training vessel is a “cooperative process” involving several offices from the Argentine government.

However the Ministry of Defence says is has an internal communication from Alfredo Mario Blanco modifying the original course of the frigate alleging “operational reasons” and with no previous consultation process.

The training vessel from the Argentine Navy with over 200 cadets plus the crew remains at the port of Tema since 2 October following the injunction from the NML Capital hedge fund which is demanding Argentina make effective defaulted sovereign bonds dating back to 2001 and 2002.

Argentina in two stages in the last seven years restructured 93% of its defaulted debt but the so called ‘vulture funds’ and particularly NML Capital, holds 1.6bn dollars in sovereign bonds and demands full face-value payment plus interest, The fund started actions in New York and London courts and is out in the world trying to get hold of Argentine assets, such is the case of the retained frigate to recoup the value of its bonds.

Argentina argues that the frigate is protected by the diplomatic immunity Vienna convention.
 

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1 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:24 pm Report abuse
Maybe they accept blame at the country level rather than finding a scapegoat. If I were the “peers' I would ask asslips to ”pay your debt“. Otherwise my collaboration would be to send my cadets a ”one way ” ticket home.
2 redpoll (#) Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:31 pm Report abuse
Why isnt Putrescent being hanged from the yard arm instead of his admirals who were just following his orders?
3 Arifu_Gobakuwi (#) Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:33 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
4 briton (#) Oct 15th, 2012 - 11:49 pm Report abuse
Every time some one fxucks up, some one must carry the can, the navy in this case,

But to be fair, [unless you do it differently]

The navy has to clear all none commercial and special traffic
, in this case this special little very important ship,,,,
Would this not need government clearance for its route south wards..
Just a thought
5 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:01 am Report abuse
if the people who benefited from training in this ship didn't come to the aid of the ship now why should Argentine tax payers foot the bill, it's not as if this boat fought great war or trained great armies or won any war, Argentina doesn't need a old outdated relics what Argentine needs is a nuclear defence program, let see if they get it through their thick skull specially now when there is a all national front. I say let them them take the ship and meet them at the international courts where we can put an end to the financial witch hunt and save money in useless navy momorabila.
6 briton (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:05 am Report abuse
You totally and utterly miss the point,

It’s a symbol, an argentine military symbol,

And a pain to CFK, this symbol could cause your glorious leader to lose great face,

And it will be the tax paying in the end, after all, they pay for everything.
Do they not.
7 redpoll (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:19 am Report abuse
They are asking PARAGUAY to use thier diplomatic efforts to release the ship? This must be a joke
8 Ayayay (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:25 am Report abuse
new verb, “Ghanando”.
9 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:25 am Report abuse
#6 Yes and wouldn't it symbolic to take it to the international courts of justice and get them to open the files for everyone around the world to scrutinize, some one here earlier pointed out that the process will take years and I agree, for this reason I believe that this ship libertad will liberate a lot of tax payers money from the public purse. I don't know who pay their salary other then the Argentine tax payer. Who by the way can't trust the navy will catch a pirate. In Australia not only the navy catches the pirate but the courts burn their boats.
www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2011/12/13/3389001.htm
10 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:26 am Report abuse
You are correct ph, rgs need to once again ahng themselves in shame and walk away grumbling
11 CJvR (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:31 am Report abuse
I really don't understand why the Argentinian regime allows this circus to continue! It is only 20 million, even for a nation like Argentina that is basically a rounding error in the national budget.
12 Rob the argentine (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:37 am Report abuse
#3 are you serious? your post have no sense. Argentina, like any other country, is liable and accountable for their debits. Period.
Kretina was knowing it very well from long time ago. That's why ARA Libertad did not go to Europe, where it was much awaited to be retained. Instead, they we decided to go to African ports where they thought was going to have no problems. This was said by members of the navy. Also is said that the decision about going to Ghana was adopted by Timmerman and Moreno.
13 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:53 am Report abuse
#10 www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2002/2-2.html
Do you know how much money Libya owed IMF before the destruction of their country?.....0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Zip. Nada, zero, now do you know how much money the new government of Libya owes the IMF. Little europids can't count fast enough. Did you know the IMF voting board member is composed of the major investors, and one of the major investors is USA? The same nation that cheered the destruction of Libya. If yo don't understand this read maybe this will help you.
www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2002/2-2.html
14 Chicureo (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 01:00 am Report abuse
Visiting ports of call should always be cleared by the admiralty and approved by the government, but what is taking place now is scapegoating. The Mad Empress without clothes is in a rage... “Off with their heads...”
This is better than the comics in an American newspaper...
15 JohnN (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 01:07 am Report abuse
Ghana - an African country that is actually higher at 3.9/10 (better) than Argentina (only 3/10) on 2011 Corruption Perception Index!
Actually the Russian sail-training ship Nadezhda had similar problem with US courts and litigation threatening legal ownership of the ship - so they just didn't go to the US.

Dispute keeps Russian sailing ship out of S.F.:
www.sfgate.com/news/article/Dispute-keeps-Russian-sailing-ship-out-of-S-F-2326004.php

Corruption Perception Index 2011:
cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/
16 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:45 am Report abuse
#15 I think the international court can be a less corrupt court to deal with this issues, in any case some people will have to share the loot with a lot more pirates.

Argentina
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$17,700 (2011 est.) country comparison to the world: #69 $16,400 (2010 est.) $15,200 (2009 est.) note: data are in 2011 US dollars
GDP - per capita (PPP):

Ghana
GDP - per capita (PPP)
$3,100 (2011 est.) country comparison to the world: #172 $2,800 (2010 est.) $2,700 (2009 est.) note: data are in 2011 US dollars GDP - per capita (PPP):
17 Frank (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:23 am Report abuse
If she hadn't been arrested in Ghana she would have been arrested in Cape Town.
Having had all sorts of ships turning up in states of near to total bankruptcy during two closures of the Suez Canal they are experts in the trade.
18 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:31 am Report abuse
(2) redpoll & (14) Chicureo

My dear South American allies and brothers....
Just to correct any misunderstanding…..
Article says....:

“”However the Ministry of Defence says is has an internal communication from Alfredo Mario Blanco modifying the original course of the frigate alleging “operational reasons” and with no previous consultation process.””

I say:
www.pagina12.com.ar/fotos/20121014/notas/carta1.jpg
Alfredo Mario Blanco, incompetent, at best…..
A traitor to his Brothers in Arms and Country, at worst….
Anyhow, no place for such a Turnip in the glorious Argentinean Armed Farces…
19 Boovis (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:07 am Report abuse
“Anyhow, no place for such a Turnip in the glorious Argentinean Armed Farces…”

Really? Judging by your history it sounds like he fits right in!
20 bushpilot (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:27 am Report abuse
If this port of call for La Libertad wasn't already known, how did NML Capital know that the ship was going to be in Ghana?

How long was La Libertad in port before it was sequestered?

NML Capital knew the ship would be in Ghana and the Argentinian Navy had no knowledge of it putting in to port in Ghana?

I'd think the Argentinian Navy would have to know the whereabouts of one of its vessels sooner than NML Capital would have knowledge of them being in Ghana.

Why didn't the Argentinian Navy, upon finding out they were in Ghana, tell them to get out of there quickly?

Maybe that document was forged and was part of a really good lie to avoid embarassment and pass the blame. A distraction?

The cheapest way to keep this incident quiet was to pay the money. The whole world is learning about it now.

Because the Argentine Government wants it to be public information that their officer wasn't supposed to go to Ghana, the whole world is also learning that due to unpaid debts, Argentina has to sneak around the Atlantic so it doesn't have it's boats sequestered.
21 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:48 am Report abuse
I think the international courts of justice is a less corrupt place then ghana to deal with this matter, and whybwould we want a bail out a ship that can even stop a pirate fishing ships?? Can anyone assertion that, if you had said this ship won major wars but the only thing this ship is good for is political bargain chip.
stopdebtvultures.org.au/?p=447
22 Boovis (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 05:58 am Report abuse
Strange that Argentina only believe in the ICJ when it suits them, we've asked them to go their numerous times and they've always refused in the past, on 3 occasions at least.

Now we know why they want the South Atlantic to be a place of peace, because if they make any noise when travelling around, someone'll impound their ship :D
23 Greyhounds (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:29 am Report abuse
Why fire the Chief of Staff? Is it his fault that his country refuses to honor its promises? I'd say that it 's Cristina's fault! By the way, this is at least the second Navy Chief of Staff that she's fired in less than a year (the other was Jorge Godoy). That makes me wonder if the problem is with the officers or with their boss (either the MinDef, or the presidenta)
24 Santa Fe (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:31 am Report abuse
21... Still can't afford the 20 mill huh.
25 Tabutos (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:39 am Report abuse
“Defence Minister Arturo Puricelli also sent a letter to his peers from Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Venezuela, Brazil, Peru and South Africa requesting they collaborate in helping to find a solution to the controversy with the courts of Ghana”
i read that as Argentina trying to bully Ghana into giving them what they want
26 ElaineB (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:18 am Report abuse
Timmerman's name is always involved in any cock-up and yet he always survives the fall-out; he must know where the bodies are buried.

CFKC really is a vindictive cow. Before the matter is settled or an enquiry held she is looking for someone's head on a platter. If she paid the bloody debt, none of this would have happened.
27 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:45 am Report abuse
#26 what debt?? I thought this report was about accountability. If this guys had done their jobs we wouldn't be heading to the international courts. Hang them high.
28 agent999 (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 08:42 am Report abuse
@27

you are right it is all about accountability or should we say Argentina's lack of accountability.
29 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:23 am Report abuse
#23 I am sure she is starting to get on the military's nerves. Perhaps she will push them just so far before they snap.
30 Santa Fe (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:09 pm Report abuse
She gets on my nerves and I haver never met the plastic fantastico
31 Anbar (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 12:30 pm Report abuse
i find it rather amusing that the Argentine Government ahs a list of countries it must NOT GO TO otherwise its property gets impounded for non-payment of debts.

Did KFC ever get Tango1 listed as a diplomatic item so that couldnt be impounded, or is it still avoiding places like the EU who will impond it?
32 yankeeboy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 01:01 pm Report abuse
Elaine, I have thought that about Timmerman for a very long time. He is one of the most incompetent people on the Int'l stage, does and says REALLY stupid things yet always seems to stay in his post.
He must know something or have something on CFK.

CFK is raging right now because she has been pushed into the real world and not the fantasy one she has been living in for the last decade. It doesn't look like she will make any changes to INDEC so

Expulsion/Devaluation/Hyperinflation/Depression is assured.

CFk was counting on, and its in her 2012 budget the U$B from WB/IDB. That's gonna hurt and they can't make up the missing U$ in trade.

Any bets on which Province will print Patacones first? My guess Santa Fe.
33 Idlehands (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:09 pm Report abuse
The Timmerman saga is a bit confusing. He reminds me of Comical Ali from 2003 - hence Hysterical Hector. He must know of an entire graveyard of bodies to hold onto his job.
34 briton (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:14 pm Report abuse
so it seems ghana has whipped up an hornets nest.

we wonder just how much of a sting, CFK will insert ?
to get it back..
35 ChrisR (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:31 pm Report abuse
20 bushpilot
“How long was La Libertad in port before it was sequestered?”

Singer had his lawyers in court and the injunction arranged BEFORE the ship entered port. The proceedings started as the ship entered into Ghanaian waters.

At least somebody was on the case in this business, why am I not surprised it wasn't AG?

Sacking Navy staff is just typical of a failed government. If Putridjelly had been up to speed OR he had issued a standing order to refer all matters of ship movements, including changes for his approval, this would never have happened in the manner that it has. It would mean of course HE would be directly responsible!

The reality is of course, that AG will now have its moveable assets hounded around the globe by Singer, et al.
36 Simon68 (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:47 pm Report abuse
It's rather sad that the senior staff of the Argentine Navy is paying the price for Héctor Timerman's cock ups.

It was the Cancillería that asked the Navy to change Nigeria to Ghana on ARA Libertad's “giro artístico”, because Guillermo Moreno wanted closer ties with Ghana.

This must be the first time that a plan of Moreno's has worked out. We've certainly got close ties with Ghana now!!!!!!!
37 Greyhounds (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:53 pm Report abuse
“Argentina argues that the frigate is protected by the diplomatic immunity Vienna convention.”

What a weak argument! Is that the best that Cristina could cook up? If they have diplomatic immunity, I'd like to see their diplomatic passports and the diplomatic visas that Ghana granted...oh wait! Soldiers aren't diplomats! Silly me!
38 briton (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 02:58 pm Report abuse
Trouble is,
If Argentina was a trustworthy country, that obeyed the laws,
And followed international laws,
Then they might have stood a chance,
But as they flout international law, and any other law,
No chance.
Why then should they demand what they refuse others?

.
39 bushpilot (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:01 pm Report abuse
@35 ChrisR

Thanks for that information.

This Arg Govt. is mad. NML wants their money back, so they're bad people.

No matter whose property it is in reality, they want to take it, it “belongs” to them. And you're trying to steal it from them!
40 ElaineB (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:05 pm Report abuse
@37 The Argentine government signed away all immunity rights.

What if Timmerman is really working for the opposition? Think about it, he is always there, chief cheerleader as CFKC walks into another embarrassing cock-up. He should NEVER have let her speak at Georgetown or Harvard. Now the world knows she is empty-headed, stupid and aggressively rude. Score another point ,Timmerman.

Is anyone else beginning to like him?
41 yankeeboy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
Timmerman single handedly used up whatever goodwill Argentina had with the USA when he boarded our Military plane.

As I have said many times we have a long history for slights

It is not surprising that just after that interest we started voting against Arg at WB IDB and IMF is looking to expel them... coincidence I think not
42 Idlehands (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:22 pm Report abuse
I never quite understood what Timmerman was doing when he boarded that plane and knicked a load of your gear. Was there ever a logical explanation for it? From memory it seemed like he was having a hissy fit over something.
43 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:23 pm Report abuse
Boarding a USA aircraft, albeit it's not a classifed craft, is a very big nono. I guarantee those airman wanted someone to come in and wax there asses and really give them a bad afternoon. But being what is was, we just decided to write the RG's off in politics, diplomatically and trade.
44 ElaineB (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:24 pm Report abuse
It was the start of his plan to bring down CFKC and Fat Max, mwahahahahaha!
45 yankeeboy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
42. It was a impotant show of power from a weak and arrogant country. We got the stuff back and they lost u$ billions.

Serves them right.

Elaine, I don't think she needs any help destroying her country.
46 Idlehands (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 03:52 pm Report abuse
Best I could find on the details of the incident:

http://www.680news.com/news/world/article/195811--argentine-judge-finds-nothing-criminal-in-undeclared-us-military-cargo-closes-case

“some stretchers, plastic tables and bandages brought in for the crisis response course had not been declared” - those dastardly Yanks!!
47 St.John (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:06 pm Report abuse
“Argentina argues that the frigate is protected by the diplomatic immunity Vienna convention.”

Yes, of course, the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (1961) says it right here: .... ... ???

Hm, can one of our learned Argentine posters tell us, where in the convention it says that a ship owned by a government is protected?

Article 22 specifies “The premises of the mission” and Article 24 specifies “archives and documents of the mission”.

A ship is neither, and no ship - except if it is permanently used as an embassy or a consulate (i.e. premises) - is protected by any kind of diplomatic immunity.

untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf
48 Chicureo (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 04:36 pm Report abuse
Timmerman is a disgrace to his noble father's legacy and is worthless. He makes a fine lap dog for Christina and therefore will be kept within the nest of corrupt criminals as they cut off the heads of those they can scapegoat.
The Americans could have made a terrible scandal about their USAF aircraft being detained, but they choose quiet diplomacy. Hopefully some tax burdened company looking for favors will post the bond and this will all quietly go away.
The more the mad empress rages, her image only falls.
49 surfer (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
pay your debts Argentina
50 ProRG_American (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
Why are you all so rejoyceful? The Argentine military will have gained the most from this matter.
51 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:14 pm Report abuse
#50 Ok sussie....explain your logic on this? The RG military just got there ass kicked from someone without weapons?
52 ProRG_American (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:16 pm Report abuse
It seems from all of the press taht I have seen and read that the Navy is getting a lot of support in all of this mess.
53 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
Argentina doesn't need a relic sail boat, what Argentina really needs is a national nuclear defense program to end the illegal occupation of Islas Malvinas Argentina by brutish illegal aliens. We will be back like in 1982 and this time we will treat them like the english treat Muslims. The law reads do to other as they done to you.
stopdebtvultures.org.au/?p=447
www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2011/12/13/3389001.htm
54 surfer (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:46 pm Report abuse
pay your debts
55 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 06:48 pm Report abuse
(48) Chicureo

100 Pesos on that “all this will NOT go away quietly.”
As I'm reading it; more navy heads will have to roll, including their “friend”, Defence Minister Purichelli.
56 ChrisR (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:15 pm Report abuse
I asked my Spanish teacher (a Uruguayo) if she had seen TMBOA on the TV after her Harvard diatribe and she had: on the AG channel that they get here.

She told me what a laugh her family had at the commentators spiel: 'why does the rest of the world misunderstand what the president said', 'she never said anything unusual' and so it went on.

My teacher then told me she had watched the Harvard transmission in Spanish and knew for a fact what TMBOA had said AND the manner she had said it in. “It was awful and showed the world what a real problem AG have with her on the world stage”.
57 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:28 pm Report abuse
(56) ChrisR

You have been living in Uruguay for some one and a half year..... (so you tell us), trying hard to learn Spanish ....... (so you tell us) and you tell us that your female Spanish teacher is an Uruguayo?

Either is she a very poor teacher or you a prize turnip.
I go for the turnip explanation.
What a Turnip.
58 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:32 pm Report abuse
#53 alex has momma been slapping you in the head again? You must masterbate to the idea that argentina can pay for a nuclear anything when it can't even pay it's bills without someone seizing their military assets.
59 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
#58 I don't talk to homosexuals but today i'll make an exception with you since your boyfriend the troll is not in here, I'll make an exception today. A nuclear defense program will pays for itself if we aim it on the right place. USA and UK threaten other nations all the time we need to protect ourselves from the nuclear armed threats. We have right too you know. We don't burn embassy yet but don't keep pushing our buttons, there is a lot of defenseless britards in Argentina.
stopdebtvultures.org.au/?p=447
www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2011/12/13/3389001.htm
60 yankeeboy (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
UK friends, just so you don't think you are the only ones;

According to Argentina Moody's is also a pirate and terrorist for having the gall to point out the default in Chaco. Gads the nerve!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/16/argentina-ratings-minister-idUSL1E8LG5X720121016
61 bushpilot (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 08:47 pm Report abuse
@52 ProRG American

“It seems from all of the press taht I have seen and read that the Navy is getting a lot of support in all of this mess.”

You are the king of one liners on these boards.

From “all” of the press that you have seen and read,

Could you list the top two articles you've read demonstrating support for the Argentine Navy? Just the best two articles. Only two.
62 ChrisR (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 09:40 pm Report abuse
@57 I don't Think aka The Turnip In Chief

And why would I possibly want to take any notice of an old embittered liar like you?

Most of the people here who can speak some English tell me the same thing: Espanol is very difficult, even for them. This includes a lawyer having to conjugate a verb for use in his response in a law case on behalf of the government.

Unlike English, where someone with intellect can hone the full meaning into a text without fear of leaving something out OR misleading the reader, because of the myriad meanings of Espanol for the same word it is virtually impossible.

But what would you know or care about making sure you don’t mislead people? It seems to me to be your only reason for living.
63 Joe Bloggs (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 09:44 pm Report abuse
62 ChrisR

:)
64 Think (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:03 pm Report abuse
(62) ChrisR

1) Your uruguayan female spanish teacher is a woman.
2) Therefore, she is an “uruguay”A”.
3) Uruguay“A”, with an “A”.
4) No rocket science!
5) Comprende?
6) Turnip.
65 ProRG_American (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:22 pm Report abuse
Captain, Just cut the lines and leave harbor!
66 surfer (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:32 pm Report abuse
OT any update on this boat thingy?
67 Britworker (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:43 pm Report abuse
Oh it's just comedy, when you don't pay your debts and you lose your house and your assets and the bailiffs get sent in. Shouting 'diplomatic immunity' doesn't exonerate you from paying your debts. Better not sail it too close to the exclusion zone on the way back or HMS Talent might have to bring this sorry but amusing tale to an end!
68 JimHandley (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 10:50 pm Report abuse
For: 62 ChrisR (#)

Re: “Most of the people here who can speak some English tell me the same thing: Espanol is very difficult, even for them. This includes a lawyer having to conjugate a verb for use in his response in a law case on behalf of the government...”

Sorry Mate but you’re talking unmitigated rubbish! English has virtually all the words used in Castilian Spanish and many thousands of others, too. For the various Spanish languages and dialects are largely derived from Latin with some Arab and ancient Greek additions; whereas English is a highly evolved, bastard hotchpotch, who’s lexicon is ALSO drawn from a myriad of other Indo-European idioms –not least, those of its former colonies. Hence the elegant plasticity and supreme beauty of Shakespeare’s tongue!!!

A little knowledge is a VERY dangerous thing!!!

Cheers!

Jim Handley, in Madrid, Spain,
69 Sussie USA (#) Oct 16th, 2012 - 11:55 pm Report abuse
I keep posting in The Economist....where is Isolde Ynsere-ly Skare?
70 Pirat-Hunter (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 12:07 am Report abuse
I think a nuclear defence program is a better investment for the future of Argentina then collecting outdated museum relics, the international courts can save Argentina a lot of money from the public purse, tax payers won't be wasting money on a navy that has yet to catch a single pirate in Malvinas Argentina, I can go on and on. But I fear it might be more then some can comprehend, I invite everyone who doesn't agree with a nuclear defence program in Argentina to end their program at home before dictating to anyone. We love you CristinaFK, keep up the good work.
www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2002/2-2.html
71 ChrisR (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 12:26 am Report abuse
68 JimHandley

1) I am not learning Castilian Spanish!
2) So the lawyer to the senior court is either a liar or an idiot?
3) Is your family Spanish, I seem to remember your wife is?
4) I know you are a Brit so how long did it take you to learn Spanish, even with the help of your relatives?
5) A little knowledge is a VERY dangerous thing!!! I agree but I am trying to address that.

It seems strange but the argies on here always castigate someone who has been in the country for four or five years and cannot speak a word of Spanish. Fair enough.

It seems anyone else who tries and has been taking lessons for 14 months is expected to have local adult fluency in a language which is utterly and completely strange and alien to them.

Mmmm, I wonder how that works when students at the local high school still fail their Spanish final year tests and they are 16 YO?

And as you know I am not your mate.
72 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 12:59 am Report abuse
Alex, based on the projected income in cuntina kirchner's 2013 budget and considering the cost in U$ dollars for nuclear weaponry, how will you pay for it without literlly killing the country? Your youthful ignorance betrays you.
73 Greyhounds (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 03:09 am Report abuse
62 ChrisR wrote “Most of the people here who can speak some English tell me the same thing: Espanol is very difficult, even for them.”

They're just trying to make you feel better about your low level of fluency. Maybe Spanish isn't the primary language in your workplace, or maybe you're a housewife that doesn't get out much....but 6 months is the average time that a native English speaker needs to become fluent in Spanish if he is fully immersed in the language (as you would be since you live there).
74 Think (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 03:55 am Report abuse
To: (62) ChrisR
Cc: (68) JimHandley & (73) Greyhounds

Spanish lessson 1; day1 .....:
Un(a) uruguay(a)...............: An uruguayan woman. (Feminine)
Un uruguay(o)...................: An uruguayan man. (Masculine)

Another of the FIRST things you learn in Spanish is to pronounce and write the ONLY special letter in that language .....:
The N with a tilde (virguilla) over it............: The Ñ.

Nice to know it when you want to wish your Spanish speaking friends a “Happy New Year” = (Felíz Año Nuevo)....... instead of a:
(Felíz Ano Nuevo) = “Happy arsehole”

You havent even learned that yet!
What a turnip!
75 surfer (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 05:00 am Report abuse
Fiddling while Rome continues to burn, keep it up
76 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 10:20 am Report abuse
Cuntina Kirchner is the modern day Nero and Buenos Aires is the new Rome.

Bread and circus....or is it champagne and futbol
77 Conqueror (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 05:23 pm Report abuse
@5 And so we hear from Vargas the faggot! Compliance with international law? NO! Compliance with UN Charter? NO! SINK IT!
@9 Let's hope it costs you hundreds of billions!
@16 You just need to be exterminated. Scum!
@18 Excellent thought. Shoot him!
@21 I like the idea of sinking it. One torpedo!
@27 Excellent idea! Is it argie? Hang it! Start with CFK!
@50 Really? A lost “frigate”? A lost “flagship”? Lost “credibility”?
@53 You do understand that there will be 45 million argie exterminations, don't you? Doesn't matter your supposed population. You all have to die. There is no argie worthy of existence!
@59 Goodbye to the faggots of argieland. 100 nuclear missiles. Love it!
@70 Inside 10 years, you will be atoms. Goodbye.
78 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 06:40 pm Report abuse
pirate hunter.....alex vargas in a typical day getting ready and working himself up to blog:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8ch4rsMmZI
79 ChrisR (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 08:46 pm Report abuse
@74 I don’t Think aka The Turnip In Chief

I agree, I inadvertently used the wrong gender with Uruguayo when describing my female Spanish teacher. I am happy to admit that, I am still learning.

Now, you can see what is going to happen next can’t you Think, or can’t you think, Think? (see what I am doing here?)

You very often make similar mistakes when you attempt to use English, but I can always work out what you mean, just like you could with the above error. SO, every time in future that you make a small error and ESPECIALLY when you make big errors, I shall correct them for you and post them on here.

Now moving on to your statement that one of the FIRST things I should learn is everything about the use of Ñ. Well, how my Spanish teacher laughed at that.

AND we BOTH laughed, when at her request, I explained who you were and how you were venerated on MercoPress!. BTW I didn’t know you were a snooty nosed person using ‘ano’ (being the formal or medical / scientific use for arsehole) as I had you down for the language usually used by liars and obfuscators such as you so stick it in your culo.

P.S. Who do you think I will take notice of regarding Spanish you, OR an educated person holding a universally recognised degree in linguistics and teaches English and Spanish Literature to university entrance level AND has been a good friend to my wife and I?

Let me think for 1 sec / googol Think. Let me explain that to you in a manner you might understand: you take 1 second and divide it by 10 to the power 99 OR the reciprocal of the number 1 divided by 1 with 100 zeroes to the right of it (in the time period of seconds).

Mmmm, I think you know the answer, don’t you Think?

You can now look forward to me making good my promise.
80 CR (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 08:53 pm Report abuse
@ 79 ChrisR=Zhivago= Isolde is answering.....
jejeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeejeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
is Zhivago on “rectum relief” (R&R)?....
lol
81 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 17th, 2012 - 08:59 pm Report abuse
Chris think is being an ass. No one speaks the other langauge flawlessly. He has nothingreal to mock so he has to grab whatever he can get.
82 JimHandley (#) Oct 19th, 2012 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
For: 71 ChrisR (#)

Re:

1) I am not learning Castilian Spanish!

You are. ‘Castilian’ (castellano) is used to distinguish ‘Standard Spanish’ from other officially recognized Spanish languages such as Basque, Catalonian, Galician and etcetera.

2) So the lawyer to the senior court is either a liar or an idiot?
3)
Probably a bit of both –given his calling, possibly rather more of the former.

4) Is your family Spanish, I seem to remember your wife is?

No. Ethnically, I’m about 10% Irish and 90% Welsh and therefore a Celt.

5) I know you are a Brit so how long did it take you to learn Spanish, even with the help of your relatives?

About 18 months –two lessons weekly at a U.K. night school, during the early 1960’s –to G.C.E. A Level. I was working in electronics and physics and felt I needed a hobby, to relax from my demanding job. I met my Spanish wife at the same school, where she was studying English.

6) A little knowledge is a VERY dangerous thing!!! I agree but I am trying to address that.

So instead of MAKING such intrepid, unfounded AFFIRMATIONS, why not ASK for HELP?

Cheers!

Jim, in Madrid.
83 redpoll (#) Oct 19th, 2012 - 07:26 pm Report abuse
Ola Jaime madrileño:
Mae hen wlad fy naha-dau....! Probably my comment will be wiped for being in Welsh!
The Welsh colony in Patagonia now consider themselves Argentines and speak Wesh and castillaño and good luck to them. But read thier history. The agreement of 1865 withthe Argentine government guaranteeing them autonomy of teaching in thier own language and being free of conscription into the Argentine army was abrogated unilaterally 40 years later by the BA govt. The Welsh protected the indigenous Indian community in the middle of the so called Desert War
So we have a precedent if Argentinos ever get thier hands on the Falkland Islands. A treaty isnt binding to them
84 ChrisR (#) Oct 19th, 2012 - 07:46 pm Report abuse
82 JimHandley

From your previous posts I thought you knew South America.

Uruguay and especially Argentina do not speak Castilian Spanish. To prompt your memory, I live in Uruguay.

A number of times I have had my Uruguayan friends, who have just returned from Madrid (mainly) tell me how surprised they were that they were not understood by what they consider the home country.

Are you aware that in Uruguay the ‘LL’ is pronounced ‘shha’, so ‘ella’ becomes ‘eshaa’, playa becomes ‘plasha’.

I showed my Spanish teacher your post when we were discussing the 6 months to talk fluent Spanish. She considered you a very aggressive and uncouth character, and given this response I concur with her.

Given you are an octogenarian I will ignore your grumpy manner.

Some while ago when I posted about the ex-pat Brits in Spain being robbed by the local governments regarding building on ‘green belt’ land but holding illegal planning orders issued by a concert party of lawyers and local officials you went berserk and claimed, basically, that I was lying. But I was not was I?

So you defend the indefensible but castigate someone with representation to the senior court of Uruguay.

Just about what we have come to expect from anyone in Spain.
85 JimHandley (#) Oct 19th, 2012 - 10:54 pm Report abuse
For: 84 ChrisR (#)

Re: Uruguay and especially Argentina do not speak Castilian Spanish. To prompt your memory, I live in Uruguay.

LINGUISTICALLY, you DO speak ‘CASTELLANO’. The fact that your Uruguayan friends were not easily understood here is immaterial to matter in consideration.

I find it rather difficult to understand the English pronunciation used by speakers of certain African, British, Indian U.S. and other regional dialects. But that does not mean that I am NOT hearing English –just a version that I only PARTIALLY understand.

Having spent more than 50 years’ as REMUNERATED author in both English and Castilian Spanish, I feel able speak with some ‘Conocimiento de causa’...

So why not nip awf and ‘Try to teach your Grandma to suck eggs’? Ask your language teacher to translate THAT to CASTELLANO.

Cheers,

Jim.
86 ChrisR (#) Oct 20th, 2012 - 02:20 pm Report abuse
85 JimHandley

Thank you for those few kind words.

Just calm down otherwise you won't be able to write anything, either Espanol or Eglish. :o)
87 JimHandley (#) Oct 20th, 2012 - 04:53 pm Report abuse
REPOSTED.

For: 83 redpoll (#)

Re: Mae hen wlad fy naha-dau..etcetera.

THE WELSH IN PATAGONIA.

Yes, I know your history–even the juicy bits that recount the sojourn of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid amongst your community –there must be summat in our bad Celtic blood that attracts such unsavoury characters!

But you forgot to say that –just a few years ago, the Welsh language had become so infrequently used by your young generation– you had to ask the Welsh government to send you some volunteer teachers.

I’m afraid my Welsh ain’t much cop. For the want of a better word, I was ‘educated’ at Hereford, Harrogate and Oxford and much to my regret –when I was a child– the British Establishment was still doing its best to erase our ancient tongue from the face of the earth. Thank God, things have finally changed for the better!

Pob Luc!

For: EVERYONE.

WHO’S THIS ALEX VARGAS FELLOW?

So much hot air in response to this man’s unimportant utterances. From his Website, I see he can’t even spell in Spanish! He’s makes a simple mistake, common to the undereducated (DEVO, instead of the correct DEBO –in English ‘I owe’)

NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

During my service in the Korean War, I was evacuated to a U.S military hospital in Hiroshima, a city in Japan which had not yet been rebuilt after suffering an ATOMIC ATTACK some 6 years’ earlier. Only a RAVING MANIAC would wish such a TERRIBLE RETRIBUTION upon even his bitterest enemy!!!

Talk about the ‘Chattering Classes’. So many members of this Group act worse than ill-bred school kids –their discourse being one of childish insults, ignorance and intolerance of all who don’t concur with their own outrageous, infantile ideas!!!

I’m about ready to give-up

Cheers!

Jim, in Madrid.

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