Argentina rejects bonds’ discrimination ruling and will go to US Supreme Court
Argentina downplayed the significance of the US Appeals Court ruling in support of investment funds that were ‘discriminated’ in the payment of their sovereign bonds vis-à-vis those that accepted the restructure of the massive 2002 Argentine default.
The administration of President Cristina Fernandez also anticipated Argentina is prepared to the take the case all the way to the US Supreme Court if needed but will never yield to the ‘vulture funds’.
“Today’s sentence (Friday) is suspended from the moment it was dictated and continues suspended, so it does not alter at all the current ‘status quo’” said Finance Secretary Adrian Cosentino adding that the ruling ‘partially’ confirms Judge Thomas Griesa decision from late 2011, which benefited ‘vulture funds’ demanding equal treatment for all Argentine sovereign bond holders.
Cosentino underlined that “today’s ruling in no way finalizes the litigation over the ‘pari passu’ which will demand further procedures both in first and second instance, and of course at the US Supreme Court”, where Argentina is prepared to appeal.
The 2nd US Circuit Court of Appeals in New York sent the case back to Griesa’s court to clarify how a payment formula set by the judge is intended to work and to determine how the orders apply to intermediary banks and other third parties.
Likewise Cosentino said that the Appeals Court decision is “by nature conceptual and lacks all practical implementation regarding the compliance of debt servicing”.
Suggested Stories
-
May 13th 2013
China to the rescue of Argentina with a 10 billion dollars equivalent swap
-
May 18th 2013
“Blue” dollar in Argentina picks up in last day of trading and reaches 8.95 Pesos
-
May 17th 2013
Argentina’s ‘autarkic project’ worsens bilateral relations and multiplies problems
-
May 17th 2013
Argentine whitewash bill turning into ugly electoral debate
356 comments Feed
Note: Comments do not reflect MercoPress’ opinions. They are the personal view of our users. We wish to keep this as open and unregulated as possible. However, rude or foul language, discriminative comments (based on ethnicity, religion, gender, nationality, sexual orientation or the sort), spamming or any other offensive or inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated. Please report any inadequate posts to the editor. Comments must be in English. Thank you.
Well…………….......................
What did I tell you yesterday, your honor?........:
”(1) Think : The Government of Argentina disagrees.... We appeal, your Honor.”
And what did them ”Legal Expert Turnips” respond?.......:
(3) reality check:
”Thought you already did, here's a clue, it is all in the name of the court!”
(4) Captain Poppy:
”Appeal an Appellate court? Ask the Supreme court next year is they will review the case… lol”
(7) yankeeboy
”Think, That was your appeal, didn't you read the article? ”
(9) Acchiappaladri
Chi va piano, va sano e va lontano.:-)
(12) ChrisR
” You CANNOT appeal an appeal court unless it on the grounds they did not follow the law…. (Blah blah bhlah)…..”
en.mercopress.com/2012/10/26/us-court-rules-against-argentina-all-bondholders-must-be-treated-equally-including-hold-outs
What a big Turnip field………..
This shall be known as Default II
Now the Anglo ”Economics Expert Turnips”
This Anglo Turnip field is getting bigger and bigger and………..
How do you think they keep the underdeveloped nations in the mud? By loaning them money so they can prosper?
Your point is what?
1. You have a fascination with Brassicas.
2. You like to cut and paste.
3. There is no point.
the arg discrimination against bondholders is what??
Poor Singer being discriminated like that...
Why don't you protect your middle class instead of a multi-billionaire? That makes no sense what so ever...
A easy concept to understand realy.
A Court rules in Argentinas favour, that's Justice.
A Court rules against Argentina, that's discrimination.
Fools
The “points” I'm trying to convey to the brainwashed Anglo Turnips in here are always the same...
1) Argentina and Britain are NOT “Mortal Enemies” or whatever.
We have a disagreement about some wind blown Islands in the South-Atlantic, alright.....
You Brits can just take your 2,500 British squatters back home and we will be the best of friends..... in a jiffy.
2) Nor Britain nor Argentina are going “Down the Drain”, are “Finished” or whatever other turnipidities the brainwashed Anglo Turnips and the trolls on both sides like to tell us.
I hope this has clarified my “Points” for you.....
Best regards
El Think
Grassy Arse.
De nada.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Default II
.
.
.
fool me once, shame on you etc... no sympathy
No Argentina fooled a lot of people to loan them money. Then Argentina defaulted. A few years later Argentina offered them a few cents on the dollar. Most of those people who trusted Argentina were not big multi-national corporations, but ordinary people. Ordinary people who believed that Argentina would honour its word.
Some of those people took the pathetic Argentina 'offer', some tried to hold out to see if they could recoup their losses.
Some if them sold on the debt for a better offer from people like Singer, who can afford to wait out on court decisions.
Yet the real losers here are the people who believed in Argentina and invested, and lost most of their money.
Now everyone realises that Argentina has NO honour. It doesn't honour it's word. It doesn't honour the treaties that it willingly signed up to.
Now Argentina can't get anyone to invest in or loan money to them, and it's their own fault.
Argentina will soon end up defaulting again. This time the losers will be the ordinary Argentine people whose pensions the government has stolen.
This default will be much worse than the last one, and because Argentina has no honour, no one will help them. Even Venezula, the friend of Argentina, couldn't loan them enough money to do any good.
The Argentine people can thank CFK for completely destroying their credibility and trustworthiness, which may take years, if not decades to put right.
And all the time Argentina twists and turns trying to get out of the mess they created, delaying and delaying.
Well the Supreme Court is your last chance. I doubt their ruling will be any different from the appeal courts, as I doubt they have anything new or relevant to say. This is just a delaying tactic from the Argentine government, who hope all these problems will somehow magically disappear.
Don't take me for a fool, your contract was never made in the good faith of Argentina's future prosperity.
“Argentina can pay all amounts owed to its exchange bondholders provided it does the same for its defaulted bondholders. Or it can decide to make partial payments to its exchange bondholders as long as it pays a proportionate amount to holders of the defaulted bonds.”
May not sound that interesting but this has important implications.
You are what a gabbler/gormless fiber. !
Here is Medcopress ,you should learn the rules before commenting here.
Here are the rules;
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
1) You have to talk lie many times...speak a lot but tell nothing .....
2) You have to have ability of distraction......
3) You have to have many kinds of comment names (female,male)
4) You have to speak yourself together with your other names to cast a fly.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I could write other detail tips if you want.
-------------------------
20
Are you freshman here ?
these rules are valid for you too .......
@4 It's too late. God already gave up on argieland. You can't go around attacking, invading, occupying other people, as well as cheating, lying, stealing and expecting God to look out for you. What they are actually doing now is pasting up mugshots of CFK and praying to them. And “churches” will be re-designated “temples”. You may have noticed that they are already reverting to “human sacrifice”. Sometimes called scapegoats. Watch for the “burnt offerings”. That will be the stores, offices, factories going up in flames as workers get told there is no money to pay them.
@6 Don't knock it. Turnips are tasty. When you have nothing else!
@7 You really don't understand the world. Take underdeveloped country A. The world looks and thinks the people need help. They divvy up some cash. Being underdeveloped, the chief crook and “his” cronies reckon they can have some of that. So a lot of the cash goes on “homes”, “hotels”, “cars”, “shoes” and “presidential” aircraft. Hang on. Where does that sound like?
@13 Let's clarify. It has just been announced that Britain's economy is the best and strongest in Europe. And no, you can't have the Falklands. Because they are going to be a lot richer than argieland. You'll be able to watch Falkland Islanders all flying off to wherever they want in their private executive jets, sailing past in their yachts and wonder why you can't manage more than a bike and a dugout.
@17 It's OK, Guzzle. Uruguay will be going down the tubes too. For being an accessory!
@19 Why not? You are one. Argieland's future prosperity? That's a laugh. Argieland wouldn't know how to “prosper” if it was MADE of gold!
@21 Excuse me? Aren't you going to give us your erudite lecture on TIME?
No !
These 4 rules are valid for everyone..I,You,He/She,We,You,They. ..!
No people gave loans othe understanding that Argentina was honourable enough to pay their debts.
So you are now saying that Argentina is a third world country, well when the loans were made it wasn't considered so, but now it is?
Hmm that will be the fault of the government then. They continue to mismanage and steal from the country. Soon it won't even be a 3rd world country, it'll probably be listed somewhere behind Afghanistan and Somalia in financail risk factor.
And Argentina wonder why no one will invest in their country and help them develop. Once bitten, twice shy.
Guzz Lightyear is right. As a Heavily Indebted Poor Country with chronic problems of governance, Argentina deserves sympathy, not sarcasm.
Only reason SA got loose from your grip is because you lost the market to China, not because you decided to do the right thing all of the sudden. SA doesn't want your sympathy, we want you as far away as possible.
It's all ways everyone else's fault never anything to do with Argentina.
It's the Brady plan, its the Paris club, it 's the vulture funds, it's the US & UK, it's the Clarin group and on and on and on.
Vulture fonds, UK, USA, Clarin... Same shit, different names
Its hard being the victim all the time huh? Always feeling that you are being persecuted whilst happily enjoying the fruits from a Northern European lifestyle. You live in Sweden or Denmark right? The Scandanavians are fans of the Brits as you may have noticed.
You lot bleat on about the fact that people voted for CFK and that should be respected. Well if thats the case shouldnt people also be able to choose how they live their lives in general? Who they do business with, what paper they read, what they buy with the money they earned etc etc?
If you speaking on behalf of all SA want to shut out the gringos or global influence then how about you give up all the technology invented and developed beyond SAs borders starting with the PC or laptop you are using etc etc etc ? And cultural aspects too. In fact -mayhap- everyone in SA could revert back to the Mayan way of life... thanks to your absurd ideology.
Stop taking credit for other people's work. You didn't have anything to do with the invention of the computer, so shut up or disconnect.
Scandinaviams aren't behind you lot, they are just like the rest of Europe atm, saving their own arses.
Snide... but empty
True indeed, goes under the name of “you lot”.
In the UK, a Judge (not a Magistrate) is allowed in a determination to ‘find as a fact’ something that clearly is a fact, such as the contravention of clauses of AGs own contracts.
The term ‘finding as a fact’ PRECLUDES ANY FURTHER APPEAL TO ANY COURT, EVEN THE SUPREME COURT.
The only legal route out if this is a Judicial Review of the judges actions, carried out be another Judge. If the Judge upholds the ‘finding as a fact’ decision then that’s the end of the legal road.
I, together with a small group of pistol shooters, the NSRA (a shooting body) and the Swiss manufacturer did exactly this when the cnut Brown tried to include in the UK pistol ban a type of pistol (a free pistol) which clearly fell within the law. We won and managed to buy the pistols in the UK for UK use. That pissed New Labour off a bit. :o)
If, very rarely, the Judge finds in favour of the Plaintiff then an appeal to the Supreme Court is allowed.
There is no doubt in anyone’s’ mind that AG discriminated against one group of bondholders against the terms written in their own documents. NOTE to Guzz; the rule of law matters, not whether Singer is a billionaire and the others are ‘middle class: many banks took the 30% deal.
In the UK the AGs case would be dead by now and thet would have failed with the appeal.
Distraction and obfustification noted.
I didnt invent the computer and I never said I did.
Scandanavians respect Britain - the style, music, sense of humor, the English language etc. You are trying to suggest something different.
You have no argument.
Until the new session in October 2013, they ruling stands and I highly doubt the court will take the case.
Hahaha, the only thing you have in common with the Scandinavians is your need of copying USA, otherwise they are much more democratic, innovative, prosperous and fair than you ever have been... Maybe not innovative, you guys leech like noone else....
Only reason SA got loose from your grip is because you lost the market to China, not because you decided to do the right thing all of the sudden. SA doesn't want your sympathy, we want you as far away as possible.
- We feel the same now leave Europe, you're not welcome.
I've already offered you that deal, you lot leave, I'll do the same ;)
'Ill leave if you leave'.
Youre brimming with integrity. Pathetic.
An integrated European, you mean?
I know its fashionable to hate Clarin but their stance is pro Las Malvinas and consider the hedge funds 'vulture funds' iow 'theyre bad and Argentina is not to blame' . As usual.
I'm honored a piece of badly processed shit like you thinks like that about me. Means a lot to me to know I'm on the right track. I thank thee.
48@ haha, good one..
@49 Thank you for the confirmation. You are, without doubt, shit. Just like Hamza. Guess where he is now? Where he's going to get his come-uppance. As will you!
I guess its easy to be blinkered when you don't live there since you've not been forced into poverty by the government or suffered through their reckless policies and persecuted.
Guzz likes SA so much he lives in Europe....... What more is there to say?
1)Falklands belongs to the people of Falklands
2)if Argentina can make it without the rest of the world and build everything by their own, i'll give my blessing, it's just after seeing the Argentinian society, i know they will look more like Bolivia than any European country after that..
And we demand CFK to create a vulture tax for imports coming from all nations in support of vulture funds. There is no need to travel around the world to deliver a message when you can do it from your home. We kindly thank all outsider for their cheerful support and self serving contributions, but ultimately is the Argentine people who will bear the consequence of our actions. When every friend is out to back stab you it is better to stay home with your family!..this tax will do exactly that make those vulture funds supporting nation keep their busyness at home, a hefty 25% vulture tax can be a good starting base. Just an idea, One of the many because apparently a nuclear defence program is costly and we need as much revenues as we can gather. A few years ago in Ontario Canada I witness how the government overcrowded jail with panhandlers and homeless to use the excuse to build a new super jail. All in a days work for the “gringo”, I wonder what the squeegee kids are doing this days? last time I seen them they where steering up trouble with the occupy movement.
Congratulations on the birth of your small kids.
It's quite amazing that they have grown up so quickly, you being an exchange student studying a Beca.
Elliot Management Corp. won a similar case against Peru and forced them to pay up in full in 2000. This was based on the same principles as the current claim against Argentina.
Don't, just don't. Freak
we don't know her age, in Argentina it's normal to study till the age of 35-40
1, Paul Elliott Singer [American born] grew up in a Jewish family
2, is a millionaire, and got into what we might call [debt buying]or [debt sharking]
3, his company buys up sovereign, debt, for peanuts and uses the courts to enforce payments, thus making a vast profit.
4, found to be very profitable from governments, who likewise may have vast assets..
5, Singer, who’s adept at profiting from the debt of floundering companies such as Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., snapped up Vitro’s bonds. Then he sued to be paid in full,
In lawsuit after lawsuit in Mexico and the U.S., Elliott and other hedge funds have challenged Vitro’s bankruptcy and sought to seize the glassmaker’s American assets and revenue from customers that include Ford Motor Co.
6, Within the Law’
“We obtained legal opinion from two experts in stock market laws, corporate law and Concurso Mercantil to be sure we were within the law,” he says.
7, The government of Peru in 2000 agreed to pay him $58 million, a 400 percent profit, on the debt of two Peruvian banks he’d purchased four years earlier.
Singer has battled Argentina for a decade after buying more than $600 million of that country’s debt, some for as little as 15 cents on the dollar. In 2005, then-President Nestor Kirchner offered to swap the defaulted bonds for new ones worth about 30 cents on the dollar. About three-quarters of bondholders accepted.
Elliott’s NML Capital unit went to court for full payment and has since won five judgments totaling $1.6 billion. Elliott’s lawyers are preparing to argue in July that the Second U.S. Court of Appeals in New York should require Argentina to settle in full.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-26/singer-s-hedge-fund-fights-mexico-elite-in-u-s-legal-showdown.html
still….
At least eye owe nothing, so he will get nothing from me.
Still,2..
If you borrow money , pay it back, because their will always besharks after you, even on lands.????
watch out theirs a shark about.
joka
you sound drunk!
give decent info, and get childish replies,
silly argie turnip,,
I liked your info, not biased for once, merely facts...
I'm sure you will find flaws in their methods the day the Chinese comes to claim their cash...
but its a fact, that people and goverments borrow money,
and some dont pay back,
argentina aint the first, and cirtainly wont be the last.
loan sharks are everywhere..
m.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas?cat=business&type=article
-----------------------
72
briton' s high culture commént astonished mé !
-----------------------
80
I am the Argentina's economic advisér sincé 2002
no neéd Stiglitz or else économísts right now !
“you sound drunk!”
You too, SUSSIE, yawn
As long as China is paid and paid on time and regularly, they will always place they money in the safest and most consistent government markets. They will have have high risk play money for the likes of argentina, but that is so small. In the USA 32% of our debt is owned by SSA, the remaining 68% is owned by private citizens, corporations and other governments. 42% is owned by foreign governments that continue to see the USA as the safest most reliable bonds on earth, because we have never defaulted.....FACT! China owns about 25% of all USA debt. However with the USA being 30% of all Chinese exports, it is in their own best interest to remain a stable creditor and trade partner. As I previously stated, China has a business mind and are not about to shoot themselves in the foot like argentina month...after month...after month.
guzz even though you wish other countries to be deadbeats like argentina, you will never see Americans taking their children and fleeing in shame as you.....or the like of alexis vargas, pontificating on the greatness of argentina........safely and comfortable in the freedom of Canada. All you pinheads love argentina....from at least 6,000 miles away.
Privileged people don't protest,their world is safe and governed by laws designed to keep them happy.
m.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas?cat=business&type=article
Piranha Hunter
the well known expert on 90 th years Argentina was Michael Moussa who was that years one of the prominent experts of IMF..but they had not solved the Economy and have not perceived it especially since the year of 2002.(Stiglitz is known on about Mexico articles not Argentina).
Now getting the Bank of New York to ensure fair payment to bond holders, old and new, that's pay day!
Key is to leave NO wriggle room to escape responsibilities.
Choice will be pay all or default all.
Check..................................Mate
Good job surfer
You won!!
A game of chess...
Repsol still need to recover assets outside of this situation, wonder what their legal team are planning.
Really starting to look like a perfect storm.
The Argentine Govt. appears to prefer the latter, this is due to hubris.
What were the other options, you say? Where to get money from to honour their old contract? How do you guys honour your debts?
Christine Lagarde, of the IMf, is a self-proclaimed leftist and is kinda interesting. She handed an UNAUTHORIZED list of the 2,000 richest Greek's SWISS BANK ACCOUNT NUMBERS to the Greek gov. The Greek gov then said they lost it!!!!! Roflmao
The U.S., and others have new agreements with the Swiss ABOLISHING secret bank accounts.
The Arg gov is #3 on Crisis Watch after #1Greece/#2Cyprus.
Why isn't president passionate about making Swiss bank accounts transparent?
Credit can be used to invest in infrastructure to deliver an economic return which will create more wealth after the credit has been paid back.
Argentina made the decision to borrow but did not utilise the credit effectively to generate a grater return. This is the fault of Argentina and for some strange reason Argies cannot accept their ineptitude.
Simply pay up what was borrowed or the negotiated amount agreed with the individual creditors and stop complaining.
I'm glad to hear you can use the credit given to infrastructure, most countries out there have little left pn the new credit when the old one is accounted for...
The trick is getting a return of one's investments. Why one has debt, one also has assets and getting a growth on the assets outweighing the interest is the general idea. This is completely unrelated to the budget deficit so will not be accounted for in any debt calculation as one does not deduct assets from borrowing.
Stop it man, lets be adults about this... Are you seriously projecting the possibilities of a “1st world” nation, with low interest rate, working infrastructure, local production and all that comes with it, to a “3rd world” nation with high interest rate, poor infrastructure and out-sourced production and all that comes with that?
“Asian Turmoil
The IMF came under fire during the second half of Mussa’s tenure for failing to anticipate the financial turmoil that spread from East Asia to Eastern Europe and then to Latin America. Its advocacy of austerity in return for loans then drew fresh criticism as recessions deepened, with many governments in Asia still skeptical of its advice today.
During his time at the IMF, Mussa publicly battled with Joseph Stiglitz, then chief economist at the World Bank, about the impact of IMF programs, which Stiglitz said did more harm than good. The tension mounted in December 1998, when the World Bank issued a report suggesting the IMF worsened East Asia’s economic slump by forcing governments to raise interest rates and cut spending, plunging millions of people into poverty.
The report drew an angry response from Mussa.
“If you have cancer, chemotherapy doesn’t make you feel better in the short term, but it may nevertheless be essential for a successful cure,” he said.
He was nevertheless willing to criticize the IMF once no longer on its payroll. In April 2002, he said the fund had given Argentina too much leeway to build up debt until it was forced into a default.”
Witch brings us back to Sriglitz.
Argentina should bring Joseph Stiglitz ex-chief economist of the World Bank to testify on Argentina's behalf. I am sure he can make it all clear since when took part in the negotiations, I consider him to be an expert witness.
m.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas?cat=business&type=article
mobile.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-18/michael-mussa-imf-chief-economist-through-1990s-dies-at-67.html
”He was nevertheless willing to criticize the IMF once no longer on its payroll. In April 2002, he said the fund had given Argentina too much leeway to build up debt until it was forced into a default.”
Are you suggesting it is IMF 's fault if Argentina treats credit limit as a child would?
Argentina has to be accountable for its own actions, like any adult.
To lighten the mood, here is a little Dance Mix video of CFK and her closest friends:
youtu.be/_1lyBQIfyaw
The infrastructure is brought by private companies coming to invest in an economy that is open and has advantageous tax and royalty regimes. The problem with Argentina is that it doesn't like foreign companies to make a profit in Argentina so stifles their activities so much that they cannot grow sufficiently to warrant investing in Argentina. Instead it decides to nationalise/steal and therefore destroys the potential it could have.
Now Argentina can secure little investment in its oil industry and YPF is going nowhere.
Now Argentina is being forced to make good on it's debt and any asset is fair game (as agreed by Argentina when its default conditions were negotiated). Argentina is clearly running scared y this as it was an Air France jet that brought the abandoned crew back.
The situation in Argentina is of Argentina's doing and Argentina's only.
The IMF is just a co-op credit union.
But I agree with you in this area-the IMF LEARNED from Argentina and cut off any more loans to
Greece last month. Years ago would have been better.
(Even though they encourage Euro Union to continue loaning!)
The challenge is humanitarian, if someone keeps funding they have the power to require reform. Argentina is not a child that the IMF is a parent of, PH.
The IMF is just a co-op credit union.
But I agree with you in this area-the IMF LEARNED from Argentina and cut off any more loans to
Greece last month. Years ago would have been better.
(Even though they encourage Euro Union to continue loaning!)
The challenge is humanitarian, if someone keeps funding they have the power to require reform.
Fine, continue thinking that way, you wont even know what happened...
There will however always be financial inequality and poverty, unavoidable. Even Jesus said so!
I think creating a 25% vulture fund tax to recover the stolen money from major importers bringing goods from countries giving support and refuge is the best way to send the vulture funds and the world a message. But if Argentina is thinking on going to court Joseph Stiglitz would be the best substantial witness, considering most document are highly secretive, what could be better than an insider?
m.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas?cat=business&type=article
But expropriation can be a quick and effective tool to archive complete isolation, with the friends we seem to have here why even bother to trade anything with any of this people.
“Cuba did if for 60 years”
... and it failed her.
Cuba nationalised everything and was cut off by US trade sanctions.
Tough going for awhile, then the Soviets with their wide variety of satellite states to trade with, bailed them out.
I have been to Cuba many many times and The Cubans are free to admit that it was a great place under the Soviets, but there is great resentment that they left, and abandoned the island.
Cuba had tough time - rice and beans if they were lucky.
Until foreign investment from China, Canada, and the EU, life was a struggle, with a crumbling infrastructure and poverty.
Chavez is propping them up with imported oil. All these factors have helped them to come a long way, and to their credit, they are learning how to develop their industries as they liberalise their totalitarian government.
Isolationism is hardly a formula for economic success.
I still believe that charging a vulture tax of 25% to all imports coming into Argentina would be a better way to deliver the world and the vulture funds a message. My opinion at #109 still stands.
Plus you can't easily find harina de maize, leche, frijoles or aceite there.
en.mercopress.com/2012/05/01/argentina-looking-to-absorb-the-million-tons-of-bio-diesel-spain-no-longer-will-import
“I still believe that charging a vulture tax of 25% to all imports coming into Argentina would be a better way to deliver the world and the vulture funds a message. My opinion at #109 still stands.”
I don't know why nobody came up with this before.
Very easy to suggest whatever draconian measures and austerity programs you like for a population of 40 million people, if you don't live there.
While you live in comfort in Canada, you're happy to prescribe misery to your countrymen.
Welcome to North Korea II
Oct 27th, 2012 - 05:00 pm
Tell you what mate you certainly don't want to take them to Uruguay. There, unless the victim can prove that he or she was violently raped (and the burden of proof is placed on the victim by the way) then it wouldn't even be considered child abuse unless the victim was under the age of 12. Mate. I wouldn't want to live in Uruguay if I had kids either. Best to stay in Scandanavia.
It's not the law that keeps us from abusing our kids. There are some values you would never understand...
So why did you have to leave Uruguay Guzz? What is your story eh? Did he/she tell you he/she was 12 and you believed her?
Twelve Guzz! Twelve! In your country these dirty pedo's being investigated and arrested here in the UK wouldn't even have a case to answer.
Twelve! Jesus H Corbett and you, you sick streak of p!ss have the gall to try to use it to score points.
Truly shocking.
Uruguay
The age of consent in Uruguay stands at 15 regardless of gender and/or sexual orientation.
Between the ages of 12 and 15, there is an intermediary status where violence is legally presumed until otherwise proven. In this case, the onus probandi (the burden of proof) shifts from the plaintiff to the accused, who still has the chance to prove in their defense that consent was given. Below the age of 12 proof of consent is not a defense.
Uruguay also has a Corruption of minors law, which can bring charges to those manipulating minors below the age of 18 into having sexual relations. For ages over 15, however, a lawsuit can be initiated only by a minor or the minor's parents, except when the minor has no parents or legal guardian; or where the accusation is brought against a parent or legal guardian.
Now, I'm going to tell you what this means in your language.
If you have sex with a person between 12-15, it's automatically a crime, should the defendant (mostly a Brit) not be able to proove that consent was given.
”Between the ages of 12 and 15, there is an intermediary status where violence is legally presumed until otherwise proven. In this case, the onus probandi (the burden of proof) shifts from the plaintiff to the accused, who still has the chance to prove in their defense that consent was given. Below the age of 12 proof of consent is not a defense.”
Simple. In your country somebody much like yourself could argue your way out of a conviction if your victim was over the age of 12 and they could not prove that you had violently assaulted him/her.
In the UK if the victim is under the age of 16 you would be bang to rights. Statutory Rape, even if you could prove that they gave their consent.
I will agree with you though that the law is not what stops people abusing kids it is fundamental human nature, but in Uruguay the law makes things much easier for sickos like you.
The victim between 12-15 needs to proove nothing, you (the rapist) need to.
Listen mate, just stop abusing your kids and you don't need to spend your time on excuses :)))
The argument still stands sicko, the argument still stands.
Always ask yourself “” Is this country I deserve “”
My point is NO !
Corrupt/outmoded State regime does not deserve you.
lax world living finished for your society.
Learn foreign language , search/find job abroad.
No, you need to proove that the person you raped in reality WANTED you to rape her/him. That is what you need to proove.
I don't really care for your excuses mate, just stop abusing your kids!!! Is that so bloody a hard thing to do?? THEY ARE KIDS DAMN YOU!!!!!
That would have been a very interesting post but for the (mostly a brit). So childish.
When I did my child protection training - quite a while ago - one of the key enablers of child abusers was to deny it happens EVERYWHERE. Well done for enabling, Guzz.
We don't know the true statistics of child abuse because most abusers get away with it. They are clever, cunning, manipulative and get into position where they cannot be challenged. Children are generally powerless, unlikely to be believed and so traumatised they don't speak or tell. They fear retribution.
Interestingly, where some of the biggest scandals have been uncovered in recent years. The child migrants in Australia, the US, Chile, Argentina, Ireland, and the UK (including Jimmy Savile), to name but a few, the abusers are Catholic or in Catholic institutions. I would never assert that abusing children is restricted to Catholics, far from it, it is endemic and most often occurs within families and close family friends. It also occurs frequently in institutional situations, schools, church groups, scouts, homes etc. Where the balance of power is in favour of the abuser.
However, I do think there is some reason to examine the role of religions where people are indoctrinated with fear and retribution with their vulnerability to abuse.
When I very first travelled to Argentina I was making enquiries about the role of the church in daily life and was told by various sources that attendance had dropped and power waned in the recent decade. The primary reason given was the uncovering of abuse. People's faith may still be there but with less respect for the institution.
I could cite examples in many countries by you seem primarily interested in Argentina and I give that as an example of how naive it is to believe it only happens in other countries.
Oct 28th, 2012 - 10:21 am
“No, you need to proove that the person you raped in reality WANTED you to rape her/him. That is what you need to proove.”
Yes yes yes, I originally misread this misquoted sentence but it is interesting that you concentrate on this mistake in order to dodge the fundamental point Guzz.
When YOU have sex with somebody in Uruguay, it is not statutory rape unless YOUR victim is under the age of 12.
Anyway. What are you doing onlin?. I thought you had been arrested this morning?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20114378
Danish, Swedish Uruguayan? My bollox!
Can we agree on stopping the generalization then? Because you lot talks about countries and flags as should they be one person only....
You are right, I did pre-define “you lot”, didn't I...
You mean we should continue generalizing then?
Your posts are little constructive, its hard to tell your intentions with then...
I see you keep pointing out the '3rd world' thing but I have to ask just how Argentina should be classified as such.
Argentina has a lot of material reserves that the rest of the world wishes to trade in. In fact, they should be cash rich with the oil and gas reserves they have. Argentina should not be classed as a 3rd world economy. They should be at the G20 as a serious producer of goods and services to the world. They have a large agricultural sector that could be capitalized upon to feed both themselves and a surplus to profit from. They also have the natural resources to to bring to the world market that are in demand.
Why are you classifying them as 3rd world?
On the subject of the Argentine government, it was interesting that this week one of Nestor's key men has harshly criticised CFKC for not following Nestor's model but destroying it. He resigned not long after Nestor died and The Harpy was off the leash.
If you read about the early lives of Nestor and The Harpy, the conflicts of ideals are clear. CFKC is all about idealism, passion, lining her pockets, is power- crazy and has no clue. Nestor might not have been my choice of president but he would have, at least, known which battles to fight and where to adapt. In other words, he actually had a clue.
I doubt he would have saved Argentina from the approaching crisis, but they might have had half a chance if he had kept CFKC and her army of thugs tethered. La Campora has run a mock since his death.
I'm not labelling Arg 3rd world, I'm merely using your labels...
Oct 28th, 2012 - 11:25 am
Who's labels? Everybody's labels or a specific persons labels? I thought we weren't generalising now.
Lets say Swedish history then.
According to that, Europe and Asia is the “1st world”, NA the “2nd”, and the rest the “3rd”...
It's a shame they seem to be in a muddle, shouting loud in the UN about any cause that affects them and unable to be independent of the ghosts of the past. I wont troll against them as they have the ability to be a great nation, I just wonder if CFK is the best way for them to get there.
I am wondering why CFK is waiting to settle up? This was a major blow and Arg will either have to negotiate with the holdouts or default on the rest of the outstanding bonds. I'm assuming they have an interest payment due in Dec. No way could it get to SCOTUS beforehand.
As I have been saying, Dec should be an interesting month for the Argentine.
I think it's time for the World bank and WTO and what not get together and agree on how to intercept funds from countries that defaults yet refuses to pay when they can to 45 billion in U$ reserves, with it BS. Until the world agrees on some sort of bankruptcy protection for defaulting countries, the need to pay up.
That is why she is panicked.
It would not surprise me at al if thet have LESS than that.
How can anyone trust the financial numbers coming out of TMBOA so called 'government'?
Toby, Stay on topic will you!
@109 How can you say that expropriation is not good? CFK does it so it must be the best, right?
@111 Is this your latest bit of drivel? A vulture fund tax? Who suggested it to you? Let's analyse your comments. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Vulture fund tax. Do tell us how you tax an organisation that never sets foot in “your” country?
@116 You abuse everyone else. Is this discrimination? Or are you lying? Don't tell us you never bounce your daughter on your lap!
@118 Makes one wonder how you know so much about these “laws”!
@122 Then all argies will be leaving their “country”? If they can find anywhere that will take them. Check out Canada and Denmark. They don't seem to be too picky!
@123 See above.
@124 I understand. “clever, cunning, manipulative and get into position where they cannot be challenged”. You mean fleeing the country and living in Denmark? Did Denmark not used to be the porn capital of the world? Until people turned queer and moved the capital to argieland!
@130 “I'm on fire with fire”. The best solution is sterilisation!
@132 Everybody else does! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
@133 The word is “amok”. Although I do understand the temptation.
@137 Wrong. In two or three hundred years, South American places “may” achieve 2nd World status. In other words, similar to Russia and China.
@138 & 139 What you're saying is that argieland is screwed. Oh, goody!
@145 You'll need to do more than “touche”. Grab her handbag and check out her stash. Should be around US$110 million. Let's apply alex's vulture tax. US$27.5 million. Is it applicable to “assets”?
www.perfil.com/export/sites/diarioperfil/img/2011/10/politica/1005_cartel_clarin_g6.jpg_687088226.jpg
2.bp.blogspot.com/-7bmUv8XO1xA/To0ZrdC9qlI/AAAAAAAADsM/9Ak3FN5Y9vs/s1600/ClarinMiente_FirmadoINDEC2.jpg
Your entire Republican Party buddies all are on record saying the US statistical offices are cooking the books.
Is that you TTT? WTF!
LOL
And btw, do you trust LIBOR too?
You people have a lot of gall to talk about Argentina's institutions and the excessive credulity of the argies, when you muppets are being stringed time and time again by your bankers, corporations, and politicians.
Anybody mentioned LIBOR...???
I have asked the “Economics Expert Turnips” in here circa ten times about LIBOR.....
Not one ever reacted about LIBOR......
I “Think” they don't know what LIBOR is .....
I would chuckle, if it wasn't so pathetic.....
When not IF
It's cringeworthy how they just sweep such malfeasance under the rug. Yankeboy in the other thread officialy said he has no problems with banks and corporations breaking the law, cooking the books, commiting crime, stealing, defalcating, and embezzling clients and whole countries. He said he is totally at peace with that.
At least he is honest that he is a crony capitalist, who is in favor of taking from the poor, the uninformed, the unaware, or the powerless, and giving it to the elite. Communism in reverse.
He and all the others here fullfill the crony capilalist motto to perfection:
“Privatize the profits, socialize the losses”.
That's the ethical grid that drives the foreigners here.
Argentina downplayed the significance of the US Appeals Court ruling in support of investment funds that were ‘discriminated’ in the payment of their sovereign bonds vis-à-vis those that accepted the restructure of the massive 2013 Argentine default.
Argentina downplayed the significance of the US Appeals Court ruling in support of investment funds that were ‘discriminated’ in the payment of their sovereign bonds vis-à-vis those that accepted the restructure of the massive 2019 Argentine default.
Argentina downplayed the significance of the US Appeals Court ruling in support of investment funds that were ‘discriminated’ in the payment of their sovereign bonds vis-à-vis those that accepted the restructure of the massive 2023 Argentine default.
Whoops! silly me. megloargiemania, please forget I asked that question! of course your qualified!!!!!!!!!
4.bp.blogspot.com/-sznL4sqZKeU/TlaoTlxuw_I/AAAAAAAAEbY/2JBhLgQkPtc/s1600/villa-miseria2_large.jpg
farm4.static.flickr.com/3415/3225827397_6ceb8ac41c.jpg
www.colaboras.com/upload/image/_ROL3987.jpg
farm4.static.flickr.com/3524/3862245608_d18f5a0393_o.jpg
...LOL
Typical Muppet thinking. I'm just repeating what the world already thinks, that's why the EU wants you out of their banking system (by imposing that big tax on banking), that's why the USA is now synonymous with corporate, banking, and all kinds of other high brass criminality. Started all the way in the early 2000s, I've been readimg.
3.bp.blogspot.com/_FnmAw06lsjI/TRX7Bbm8tnI/AAAAAAAACSg/VVVGhuNH3xg/s1600/villa.jpeg
www.losanteojosdeltata.com.ar/_recursos/adjuntos_notas/villa31_retiro.jpg
www.moretticulturaeros.com.ar/argentina/image/Villa%20Soldati/13%20%20Parque%20Indoamericano%20en%20Villa%20Soldati%20Argentina.Diciembre%202010.jpg
Almost half of the children in a “1st world” country are poor! In the capital city itself no less. Either the supposed wealth of the UK is a myth, or it should be beyond embarrassing that in a country that claims to be rich 1 in 2 kids are poor in their showcase city.
or you will just dig yourself deeper.
people have cars.
Not TONY BLIAR's LIEBOR PARTY; you Turnip !!!.......
LIBOR !!!............ I'll spell it to you L - I - B - O - R....
Just a couple of clues.......
1) It has cost the world about 100 times more than the Argentinean default of 2002.
2) LIBOR It's managed from London by Anglos....
3) Those LIBOR Anglo-bosses are ,just now, 19:25 gmt, on their way to their respective dinner tables at London finest restaurants.
4) Most Brits don't have a clue how big the LIBOR humbug is nor how much LIBOR has cost them personallly.
Anyhow............ Always easier to blame the Dagos.......
Brainwash anybody?
Well what ever you have been reading is wrong. Why does that not suprise me.
There are 27 members of the ESCB (European System of Central Banks)
the UK is not one of them! I lookek it up, suggest you do the same.
So please kindly explain why the EU would want the UK out of something it does not belong too!!!!!
You are so proud of your garbage country you have never disclosed where you are from. You don't matter.
Obviously you are American.
Chill out, go to a spa... don't get blown away in the head. hahaha
Unless you are in the banking business,
Besides banks have been lending to each other for decades,
probably why banks are so corrupt,
And almost certain, they know about the crash, before we did, and government intervention was either a calculated risk, or a forgone conclusion.
As for the public,
You wont get must of a response from those who do not understand.
To complicated,,
Let’s talk about [impounded little abandoned ships]
mmmmmmmmmm
Duhhhh!
I take it you understand the concept of humour?
UK “”“NOT A MEMBER!!!!!””
Interesting article, Tobi, especially the who, how, and why of it. How are similar groups faring in your own neck of the woods?
Argentina 50.000 March against Hunger.
Most worrying however is the “young face” of poverty in the country. Half of the poor-in other words 7 million - are under the age of 18. Two million of these are malnourished and each day 25 children - mostly newly born - die from hunger. That is over 9,000 preventable deaths per year. [1]. In addition, a recent survey carried out by the Ministry for Social Development revealed that 35% of young people between the age of 15-20 years living in marginalised suburbs of Buenos Aires believed that in five years time they would be die as a result of the unemployment, crime and drug addiction that plagues their communities.
Your link pales in comparison, tell me when did the last child die of hunger in the UK, excluding deliberate parental neglect.
You say:
“You wont get much of a response from those who do not understand....”
I say:
I wasn't expecting anything from you boy....., anything at all....
But I was expecting some “Wise Words” about the LIBOR humbug to be send to us by the likes of Mrs. ElaineB, from her beloved British Airways business class seat.....
Or from Mr. Beef from his beloved Emirates Airlines first class seat.....
Or from Mr. Yankeeboy our American Economic Sciences prodigy (and shoes salesman) from Washington D.C.
(178) reality check
I understood your humor alright.....
You obviously didn't understand mine....
But LIBOR is no joke, matey... Time for you Brits to realize it...
I'm sorry, was somebody defending crooked bankers round here? Or is this just another attempt to convince us that being a deadbeat is a relative concept, i.e that it's entirely acceptable if you can point at a bigger deadbeat?
what you expected and what you got was two different things,
sorry to have didapointed you.
You never dissapoint me boy....
you do exactly what it says on the lid....
No sir....
I'm not attempt to convince you that being a deadbeat is a relative concept.
The LIBOR humbug is clearly showing all of us that the UK is 100 times a bigger deadbeat than Argentina....
The LIBOR humbug is clearly showing all of us that the UK is 100 times more economically corrupt than Argentina.....
The LIBOR humbug is clearly showing all of us that the UK citizens are so brainwashed that they don't even want to “Think” about the LIBOR humbug.
Nothing “Relative” about the LIBOR humbug.........
Sorry, read it again, nothing at all humourous about it.
As for LIBOR, those involved have got away with the greatest act of larceny in modern times.
The law is supposedly being altered to prevent it happening again in the future, shame UK legislaters can not act retrospectively, I would love to see them locked up and the key thrown away. They profited from peoples, Brits, misery and got away with it, scum does not even come close to describing them.
So “bigger” and “100 times more” aren't relative concepts?
Soooo.....
And now you can go back to your indignation against those morally bankrupt Argentinean dirty Dagos that cheated the world for 100 times lesss than your London City boys.......
Did I understand it correctly?
First off, where did the dirty dagos come from? same place as the gringos I suppose.
Secondly, whether it is corrupt politicians there or corrupt bankers here, what does it matter, both are as despicable as the other!
Am I pissed of that they appear to have got away with it? you bet your sweet life I am.
Are you pissed off that yours appear to be getting away with it? If not? why not?
I am about to upset the poor broke argies on here.
You see that LIBOR is a tool used by the banks for overnight interest rate earnings on their liquid position.
If someone has sufficient money, in real money not argecrap pesos, they can ‘park’ it on the LIBOR market for whoever long they need to.
I did that when we had some real spare cash, the only downside is that there are no guarantees that you will get your entire money back if the bank that is using your money folds. You are of course way above the bank limit anyway.
And then gold started to move up so I moved out of LIBOR into gold sovereigns via a UK trader and did even better than on LIBOR and I held the gold in one of my safes, so no real risk there.
So you could say I benefitted from the LIBOR scandal without knowing.
Would I do it again? Of course I would; the argies would too if:
1) they could convince a trader to deal on their behalf (bit difficult that with the shit pesos and the fact that you are Argies);
2) they could bring themselves to trust anybody outside of their beloved country;
3) they understood what the hell I am on about.
(only a little list Guzz, but you understand I have little to work with with the argies.)
:o)
In the words of Dave ALLEN, “May your god go with you.”
Take no notice of Giorgio_O._Tsoukalos. He is a a troll with very, VERY overinflated sense of self worth. He is on here arguing with people that he thinks are beneath him and who are “A waste of my time” and “You don't matter”..............
Well if they are then why are you on this site then? why don't you try and get your mental stimulation elsewhere?
Guzz has been dropped on his head too many times as a child and Think Thinks he has something to say............a word to the wise...It's no good trying to talk when you can't be understood..... You're just making noise!!!!!
:)
New at democracy?
The average person usually substantially incorrect.
Look at your friends in the U.S.:
20% of people polled by Gallup believe the sun revolves around the Earth. (asked carefully and given plenty of time to respond.)
Imagine how smart the AVERAGE person is! Europeens responded same.
Countries with less higher rated education (ahem!) would answer with much HIGHER percentages.
That's why DELIBERATIVE DEMOCRACY is Grrreat! Both Spaniards and Greeks voted for 'austerity' governments (socialists lost for first time in decades!) even with public marches!
But if you're just mad because someone has more than you and you're waving “the mob” at em--
They don't think about it. Maybe if you're lucky, for a moment that eventually becomes comedy, but enjoying life is more attractive.
Abundance-minded, middle-class families who move towards greater opportunity have always been the safest. (:
Actually, you're wrong!!!
The world is held up by the four pillars of Islam..............
“hey, try to meet me in the USA if you are a real USA citizen.
I can hit your head and make it spin more than 100 times!”
Everyone else on here is having a proper intellectual exchange, right or wrong.
You, however, just make idle threats and taunts like a schoolyard bully, right?
Do you really want us to find you, you meant what you said, right?
Tell you what, if you really live in the USA, make it easy for us.
You still insist you live in Tempe, correct?
You can show us you do:
Go to a recognisable landmark in Tempe, Tempe City Hall, you can't miss it.
Take a picture of yourself (face obscured if you like) holding this week's East Valley Tribune.
Open a PhotoBucket account under a fake name (Sussie??) and post the picture.
Give us the link on Mercopress, then we'll know you are really in the USA.
If you choose not to do this, we can assume you having lying all this time. Not unexpected, I grant you.
Can't wait for the excuses...
Go
- 7.7 earthquake off western North America
- 100 thousand flee tsunami warning in Hawaii
- 2 feet of snow predicted for mid-USA
- “Megastorm” threatnes 65 million people and multiple cities
Seems it is another country that is getting some warnings... that they should repent, and soon.
no wonder you catholics have so many problems, you leave everything in the hands of 'god'
God is what you make of it. To me God is Nibiru. The result is the same, you cannot fight God (whether a deity, mother Nature, or Alien intelligence).
Repent, and Enki may be merciful even to Muppets.
Bit like a mate who never gets a round of drinks in, but is happy to have others buy them, embarrassing really.
They're just keeping drunk tourists nice n safe in Oahu, which gets big surf. Renegades go out to RIDE EM BRAH :)
You simpleton, have you not noticed that EVERY nation on Earth has had major disasters last 10 years, but ONE?
Australian floods and super cyclone Yasi
Brazilian Hurrican “Catarina” and floods.
Major floods in Peru, Venezuela, Bolivia
Earthquake in Chile
Earthquake in New Zealand, Iran
Tsunami in Indonesia, Thailand, India, Malaysa
Earthquake/Tsunami in Japan
Hurricane “Katrina” in the United States
Super heat wave in Europe 2003
Super storms in UK this year
Forest fires in Russia
Earthquakes in China
Fires in Israel
Earthquakes in Turkey
Earthquake in Haiti
Hurricane “Wilma” in Mexico
etc, etc, etc...
Every nation on Earth in the last 10 years has had a major natural disaster with significant death toll, big countries and small countries.
EXCEPT ONE.
A nation that is trully favoured by the Gods, the Annunaki, and Nibiru.
Fact.
Argentina. The chosen ones.
Or how do you explain that natural disasters have ocurred all over the planet, and all around Argentina (even a recent really bad coastal storm that somehow hit Uruguay yet missed Buenos Aires.. hmm)... yet there seems to be some sort of “divine force field” protecting us?
And Argentina is not a small country. Covering a significant portion of the planet, it is impossible that a major catastrophe cannot hit.
Yet it has not happened.
We are protected because we are good people. You are not. Ask yourselves why.
their are about 199 nations,
perhaps your man upstaires is saving your argentina for the biggy.
its nothing but fate, things that happen, are meant to happen.
so be sure, yours is yet to come,..
'God is everywhere, but he has his office in Buenos Aires.'
Don't think so.
and i thought you were meant to be clever!!! Clearly not if you actually believe in The Divine!
Anyway, 1 minute on Google and: The July 2007 Argentine winter storm resulted from the interaction of an area of low pressure systems across central Argentina and the entry of a massive polar cold snap during the 6–8 July 2007; it was the worst winter of Argentina in almost forty years. Severe snowfalls and blizzards affected the country.[5] In Patagonia, several lakes were frozen.[6] The cold snap advanced from the south towards the central zone of the country during Friday, July 6, continuing its displacement towards the north during Saturday, July 7 and Sunday, July 8. On Monday July 9, the simultaneous presence of very cold air, above the average levels of the atmosphere as in the surface, gave place to the occurrence of snowfalls even in localities where snow is very rare. This phenomenon left at least 46 people dead in Argentina,[7] six in Chile,[8] and 3 in Bolivia.[9]
And before you start talking death toll numbers, i think one should define your understanding of “significant” and “major”! knowing you it will be anything with a death toll over 47.
Thank you for that link.
I knew of Felix Salmon's bet and I was curious to find out what was happening with it ... you know, some people forget their bet when they lose it. I was glad to find that Salmon fairly recalled that bet and he admitted he was wrong ... just to follow with a lenghty presentation of his opinions that IMHO will be proved wrong again.
Mr. Salmon pretends to know much more than he actually does ;-) and his worries for Armageddon (2012 has still few days left for it LOL) soon to follow the tragic, unbelievable, dumb, unexpected [I agree with him in this... ONLY ;-)], unrespectful to the US government, etc. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals' decision are ... a little bit exaggerated.
VERY interesting (and upsetting and worrisome for me) are Salmon's final sentences. That could be an easy, effective way for tomorrow's big fraud (and it's today's blackmail for some players in the sovereign debt business: Salmon and some friends of his seem badly scared)
Natural disasters can strike no matter what religion or how ''good'' you are. The assumption that Argentina has not been hit by a natural disaster because they have been ''good'' is incorrect.
Unless you are are telling us that you only get hit by natural disaster if you are ''bad''. How does this explain famine in Africa?
I'd like to know what the excuse is for all the heat related deaths in Europe or the USA. Aren't you all super-rich and all supposed to have air con and cars? How could you possibly get heat-stroke then if all Europeans and Americans live in climate-controled palaces?
Your “info” says it all, worst cold weather in 40 years and only 47 deaths. In Europe and the USA it would be hundreds. And when was the last time a heatwave caused thousands of dead in Argentina?
We have heating systems and a/c at home. In fact I know no one that doesn't have either.
And most of those 47 were homeless. Unlike heat waves, where the worst part is in the day when you are awake, the worst part of a cold wave is in the long, dark winter nights. At least the excuse there is they were sleeping... what's the excuse for the heat deaths?
I am hoping for a (cutely gov-challenged) nice Latin utopia.
Do not worry, no one beats the Anglo-saxon churches in religious pixilation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjGjrvwsPG0
your statistical info on US Supreme Court are interesting: I've already posted them on our Italian holdouts' forum (we are not familiar with the US judiciary and we are trying to understand IF, WHEN, WHAT Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton can do with the Supreme Court to hamper the CofA decision).
And about:
“I think it's time for the World bank and WTO and what not get together and agree on how to intercept funds from countries ...
..., the need to pay up.”
I fully agree. I have been thinking and recommending that also in writing for some years ... but goverments and international finance organizations have not shown yet real interest in that (big mistake in my opinion).
May be courts rulings can eventually inspire and urge international “new rules” .
I am not very optimistic but ... who knows ...
I am/was hoping Arg to be the 'more evolved' destination in UNASUR, like the West Coast is the higher frequency U.S. (and where Youtube comes from!)
What on Earth is your post have to do with the Argentine government wanting to take their case to the US Supreme Court?
Tut, tut Tobais, anyone would think that you were trying to distract the thread from yet another public humiliation of your government.
Speaking of Argentine humiliation, anything new on Libertad?? Anyone else keel-hauled as scapegoat?
Anything else seized for arrears ?? South Africa port problems perhaps ??
Oh dear!!! All your posts show is your lamentable lack of intellect. You disagree with other posters on here but don't have a point of view of your own. You hide behind or reinforce other people point of view without telling anyone what yours is...... It's a text book case of Psycho-narisism.
You've changed your name so many times on this website, I wonder what you are afriad of..... whether someone will discover the real you or whether you will.
Oh and a word to the wise. We all know that the bible is nothing more than a “rattling good read” we also know that all the natural features described in the bible around Nazereth and Bethlehem do not exist. It has also been proved that the books in the bible were NOT written by the people they say wrote them. So “your” god either:-
1/ does not exist ( you can fool all of the people some of the time )
or
2/ Is too busy killing babies in Africa to answer anyone's prayers
Either way you slice it, the Catholic church is an old and corrupt institution, founded on lies and heresay.
Your post sounds a it like one of GOT's.
“Oh and a word to the wise. We all know that the bible is nothing more than a “rattling good read” we also know that all the natural features described in the bible around Nazereth and Bethlehem do not exist. It has also been proved that the books in the bible were NOT written by the people they say wrote them.”
Are you sure “We all know” and agree with your statement.
But this is a distraction andis not the place or topic to take this further
You (and Poppy) say:
“I think it's time for the World bank and WTO and what not get together and agree on how to intercept funds from countries ....... I fully agree. I have been thinking and recommending that also in writing for some years ... but goverments and international finance organizations have not shown yet real interest in that ......
I say:
Did you ever “Think” about why “Goverments and ”Inter-Guvernamental International Finance Organizations” have not any interest in that...?
They don’t want that Boomerang to hit them in the neck.
Just look at their External Debt today…..
UK = 390% of their GDP
Holland = 344% of their GDP
Hong Kong = 334% of their GDP
Belgium = 266% of their GDP
Germany = 142 % of their GDP
Italy = 108% of their GDP
USA = 103% of their GDP
Un bacio grande grande da l'Argentina
El Think
235 Think
Loving your use of stats. The figures you quote are completely meaningless in the context you are using them. It's a bit like splitting a balance sheet in half and then attempting to laugh at those with the bigger numbers.
So as usual think just showing us a list or a graph does not really prove anything
Good for you!.....You seem to “love” everything I say.......
Maybe because you are not sayin' anything.
Except parroting your accountant mates from the WSJ, the FT and the Economists...:
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2003)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2004)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2005)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2006)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2007)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2008)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2009)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2010)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2011)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2012)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (2013)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (20xx)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (20xx)
Argentina is going into bankrupcy very, very soon (20xx)
So what are YOU saying? You've posted financial data again without any reference to what you believe it means or what point you are making. So tell us. Why have you posted those statisitics?
Yet again you are either misrepresneting what the data means or don't know/understand what the data means.
Not much data there to be interpreted.
You've completely missed the point of the exchange. The data in question was in post 235
www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=254534
You ask:
“So tell us...... Why have you posted those statisitics?”
I say:
Because....., as my name says... I want you to “Think”.
(243) Cmdr. McDod
Your usual insertion of some good ol' common sense on those pages is always warmly welcomed.
Your ability to service the debt is very much dependant on the mechanics that rates you AAA and then lends you money to do just so. Lets say the market would move to China. Lets say the Chinese creates their own rating system. Lets say you aren't AAA anymore. Imagine an Argentina with trillions in debt...
...or in other words you have no idea of the meaning of the data yourself so want others to think about what it means?
We are talking about what is happening at the moment.!
Well, the market HAS moved to China. The Chinese HAVE made their own rating system (check UK rating :))
The following blog sets things out in layman’s terms ( and is written by someone who did not support or think that the decision would pan out as it has):
seekingalpha.com/article/957151-argentina-s-stunning-pari-passu-loss
Please read it as it deals with the inns and outs of the decision and the commercial position. This is what we should be debating as this is a legal argument with a legal solution...
Some on here would say that there as some Turnips amongst us, undoubtedly this is true but if people refuse to debate the actual issue (a nicety of law) then the whole thing is a turnip patch.
You say:
“...or in other words you have no idea ......”
I say:
You always say Mr. Idlehands but I learn..., I learn..., I learn...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6EaoPMANQM. ;-)
m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13518747
As you can see, 2011 didn't only see you drop to AA-, but also to A+ with a negative outlook... ;)
2 years of bad crops
I wonder what that will do to exports?
Barley soup para todos.
While you are here predicting natural disasters in SA, nature is busy in USA...
Wheat crop in BA?
Enjoy the weather...
Problem is Arg economy depends on having good crops this year, and were crowing about it about 6-8 weeks ago, rut ro, doesn't look like it is going to turn out the way they thought it would.
BTW do you know how many building have collapsed in Arg this year? I think you can add another 2 this weekend.
Barley para todos...do they have those signs up in BA yet?
By the way, Dagong downgraded you lot to A ;)
So what - how does that affect the UK?
Argentina needs to ask Bolivia why they are paying 13pts lower than they have to.... although I may be off a bit the last 9% plunge on Friday hasn't been calculated in yet.
Well, more and more developing nations seeking their way to Dagong, means that the trust in the 3 big rating agencies is lower and lower. This will mean that in a future, you wont get as good interest as you do today, something that is crucial to be able to honour your debts...
Perhaps mushrooms and moss will be this years bumper crop.
And while Guan likes to promote Dagong as the Chinese rating agency, he often fails to mention that he is not alone in a very competitive and crowded market.
Dagong has a 20% share at home, down from 60% in 2006. He is losing ground to S&P, Moody's and Fitch, which have formed joint ventures with other domestic agencies. While he claims he is losing share because he refuses to sell a rating, industry insiders claim the opposite. “Dagong works to please the government,” says an ex-employee from a foreign agency in Beijing. “They are willing to give a high rating to get the client. They tend to rate higher than foreign competitors to get the business.”
Many also question certain aspects of Guan's methodology, which they say is slightly biased to defend China's interests. “He seems to be hypersensitive to US risk and a bit blind to domestic Chinese risk,”
says Patrick Chovanec, an economist and professor at Tsinghua University in Beijing.
Industry insiders suggest wearily that he has no contacts with the countries he has been rating and that certain ratings in China defy rational thinking. “How do you explain that Dagong gives a better rating to an unknown city in China than to the US, or an AAA to the heavily indebted Ministry of Railways?” says one analyst.
What's the relevance of “developing nations seeking their way to Dagong”? They don't lend us money.
You are blinded by jealousy of your betters.
How amusing.
Maybe not, but the Chinese are buying your national debts, and when it comes to interest rates...
Bottom line guys – no accurate data is going to place the Argentine economy in a better position than the UK or the USA no matter how much you hope.
It’s a bit like when those that claim to have a new unbreakable proof that the World Trade Centre buildings were not brought down by two enormous, packed and fully fuelled aircraft flying into them at full speed.
Even though it is biased, it explains a lot...
You say:
“Bottom line guys – no accurate data is going to place the Argentine economy in a better position than the UK or the USA no matter how much you hope”
I say:
You are absolutely correct...; at least for the next fifty years...
But then, I say further:
Bottom line guys – no accurate data is going to place the Argentine economy in such a bad position as decipted by you on these pages....no matter how much you hope.
Nobody is measuring size here, if you want to do that, talk to conq, poppy or yanqui. I'm merely saying; change the rules of the game, if not for us, do it for your kids...
I think you need to keep a better track of who posters are and what they've said.
please be careful on your comment times ,don't write them everytime whenever come to your mind ,might you could be signed as eternal jobless,
in many times,don't forget to decorate with YouTube links adressing to frivoluos brains.
you are in true way ....... keep on compress.....!
I have a much better track record here....
I'm having difficulties understanding your posts...
If you read my post (272) you will find out that I was referring to “You Guys”, not to “You” in particular........
On the other hand, on your post (270), you specifically name my name as one that posts ” Data or links implying some greatness towards Argentina or some catastrophe towards somewhere else (usually the UK or the USA)“
I never did neither...
So I would suggest that it is you, Mr. Idlehands who ”Needs to keep a better track of who posters are and what they've said.”.......
Pokki 0.260.0.520
That didn't help a bit...
then...Php Storm 5.0.3
I hear its been as much as U$20B over the years..
Bahahahaa
Barley para todos
Regresión a la infancia?
Got any links? - that had to catch up with them eventually as the INDEC data had become a joke.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/jpmorgan-math-nonsense-to-metlife-in-cpi-spat-argentina-credit.html
NB Has Argentina paid a single dime for the expropriation of YPF yet - or are they hoping the Spanish will just forget about it? You'd assume they would grossly under value it and just pay that - but no - they don't want to pay at all.
I guess at this point it is easier to go after JPM but it is agood basis to start suing Arg next...
www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-29/jpmorgan-math-nonsense-to-metlife-in-cpi-spat-argentina-credit
The report covered all the significant tricks thet TMBOA has tried in the years since 2007.
She is going to get what she deserves and has worked for any time soon.
288
yanqui is a self proclaimed Nostradamus, he needs no links...
289
Eltobi Karadura :-)
290
Aiba l'Abala :)
What alternate universe are these trolls inhabiting???
LOL LOL LOL
Can argue till doomsday,
But sooner or later, CFK will be made to pay argentines debts,
After all,
If you let one little fish, escape the net,
All the world indebted fishes will escape the net.
Then where will we be.?
.
Looks like El-Thinko MKII is on the keyboard this evening.
When does the properly literate one come back on shift?
If you had påaid your debts, how come you owe more and more avery year?
Oh, you borrow more than you pay, you say?
So you borrow to pay, plus a little extra do you?
Is that paying your debts, or is that the system sending money around?
;)
facts are fact,
if you dont pay your debts ,,,,,,,,,,
so i shall repeat,
sooner or later you will be made to pay your debts,
ye cant pass the buck, we are on about CFK not the UK at the moment.
But at this moment in time, CFK and Argentina are in the privileged and envious position, and under the worlds spotlight, to show the world , that it [argentina] can lead by example,
And pay her debts,
You never know, perhaps the world will follow your example,
But you will never know, until you pay up, will you.
justa thoughta
I can understand that some billions owed by Arg to a hedge fond is more interesting for you than UK's trillions owed to China... I can also understand why you choose to talk about Arg.
Fact is, pay your debt and shut up, nobody is listening :)
ARGENTINA
Fact is, pay your debt and shut up, nobody is listening
we are in complete agreement old boy,
pay up or shut up.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
p/s
can you prove the british owes china one trillion pounds,
or is this another CFK instigated lies.
m.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas? cat=business&type=article
mobile.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-18/michael-mussa-imf-chief-economist-through-1990s-dies-at-67.html
Numbers please...not babbling .
Lets say, hypothetically, that I could proove my claims, what would that mean to you?
But who's debt is overdue for payment
don't be silly... Trillions!! How far do you intend to go with your debt before paying? Quadrillions? Who will lend you the cash? From where? How to back the loan with effectiv value? HOW TO BLOODY PAY IT???
“Your post sounds a it like one of GOT's” An Insult!!!!!!!!
I'm nearly annoyed!! Well as it seems you're right, I'll let this one slide.
But answer me this, How DID the UK get dragged into the Argentine flag ship being siezed in a North African port for an unpaid debt to an American Hedge fund?
All this “The UK and USA coluding together” to “Illegally infringe on the sovereignty of the Argentine people”
Surely this between TMBOA / Ol' Turkey neck / KFC / The Harpy and the USA. So far as I was aware, it had nothing to do with us, Or is this just laughing boy Timerman dragging us into it as well 'cos he really doesn't like us?
What is the UK Banking Liabilities as % GDP ?
This is 5 levels below investment grade believe it or not.
Really if any outfit is looking to invest, can you afford to lose your entire investment or spend the next 20 years in legal action to recover .
Only suitable for vultures.
Seems like a circle...
deja vu 8 yrs later
1,7,9,
And whatever you may be on about ??
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
305 Guzz (
Lets say, hypothetically, that I could prove my claims, what would that mean to you,
Hypothetically,
It would prove two things,
1, the exact and itemised amount that we owe china, [we dare you]
And
2, it would mean exactly what argentines debts mean to you,
Probably nothing,, but an interesting conversation ??
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
309 Tinx (#)
What is the UK Banking Liabilities as % GDP ?,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A very silly but hypothetically intelligent question,
My reply is equally silly,
I have no idea, but if you, know the exact liabilities and dates, of the United Kingdom,
Then would be the most cleverest and interesting man on the planet, let alone this blogg,
//////////////////////////
Any other questions ??..
p/s
but this is about your debt, and a poor little abandoned l;onley little ship,
that needs help.
please pay, and take him home. lol.
“Past Performance IS a Guarantee of Future Results”
If it is, hypothetically, to hear your excuses, I wont bother...
'Holders of the Republic’s 2005 and 2010 restructured securities (New York and UK law, including GDP warrants) could eventually face potential default should Judge Thomas Griesa’s ruling is upheld, unless Argentina decides to concede to the holdouts.'
then dont bother guzz,
but remember, it WAS your question not mine.
Check
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Mate
You found your excuses before even looking for the answer...
surfer
Tomate un mate y avivate....
your question,
my reply,
hypotheticly.
The UK got ‘involved’ with the Singer lawsuit because Singers’ companies are registrerd in the Caymans (UK) and had a judgement in the favour against the AG government, who appealed and lost that as well.
So it is not just the NY Courts exclusively.
The Law Lord who presided over the case was of course, educated in the UK, and Ghana has a UK system for all of their courts.
The comment made by a Ghanaian Government Official that they were embarrassed by AG sending over two ministers to basically tell them to call their Law Lord off, has been reported by the AG government as a victory!!!
You do have to wonder just when these idiots are going to understand the basics of international law. As for them going to the US Supreme Court over discriminating against the two classes of bond-holders, I will believe that when it happens. Seems like another bullet train announcement and just as effective to me.
We do understand international law;
Everything for you, nothing for us.
We are guilty, you are innocent.
We just don't agree with your version of justice... so we just change it, like it or not :)
Argentina now being referred to as having a 'Dead' economic model
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Vulture grade
Everything for you, nothing for us'
Guzz....who is YOU and who are US?
How is it that Brazil moved to the number 5 spot in GDP's by playing into “our” system. Colombia just over took Argentina as South America's #2 GDP. Chile works just fine in international trade.....Bolivia.....even Bolivia has a better credit rating than Argentina........Are those countries the US?
Most countries attitude to handle international trade: Smile to their face, quietly walk away and say “fuck you” to yourself, as you smile to bank.
Argentina's International trade attitude: Fuck off! and you BETTER trade with me on my rules and like it......as they slowly go broke and run off crying to the WTO....UN...UNSC....and tell IMF to screw off.
One day.....one day Argentina will learn how to play nice n the sandbox......most other SA countries have.......even Venezuela knows when to keep it's mouth shut.
“Ghana: Seized Argentine Ship, a Victim of Decades of Failed Economic Management”
“How is it that Brazil moved to the number 5 spot in GDP's by playing into “our” system. Colombia just over took Argentina as South America's #2 GDP. Chile works just fine in international trade.....Bolivia.....even Bolivia has a better credit rating than Argentina........Are those countries the US?”
Illusions, smokes, and mirrors. Where the rest of Latin America is today, we have already been: 1990s.
They will collapse soon, including Chile, Colombia, Brazil, Peru, Uruguay, etc. It's just the nature of the crony capitalist European-North American model.
We are wise from experience, never to trust again what Europeans or Americans claim we should do, and in fact to do the opposite.
With reference to your welcome reply to a post on mine few days ago, I can reassure you:
it is crystal clear to me that after those long, complicated, disputed proceedings UK judiciary eventually gave a final judgment in favour of NML, in particular confirming that Argentina completly waived its sovereign immunity on its assets.
I wish they can make a good use of the UK judgment also down there in Cape Town.
I have just quickly browsed the UK judgments and I am not a lawyer, but I doubt that it was relevant to the recognition and execution in the UK of Judge Griesa's ruling that NML fund is registered in the Caymans (UK):
my guess is that the result in the UK would be the same had NML being registered anywhere else.
About waiving ... I beg you can waive your copyright because some days ago I dared to translate your “Terminally Insane” to “Demente Terminale” (crediting you of course!) and that is now a great success on our Italian forum.
Thanks.
HAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!
REPENT YANKS, REPENT!
You say:
“ I beg you can waive your copyright because some days ago I dared to translate your “Terminally Insane” to “Demente Terminale.......”
I say:
...ti interrompo solo un attimo per dire che ”demente terminale“ e' Italiano puro.
www.sigg.it/bollettino_dettaglio.asp?idbollettino=54
”Demente Terminale” is pure Italian....
No copyright needed....
Chuckle chuckle©
Only reason the SA nations you mention are doing fine, is because you lot lost control of the market...
What do people reckon is the current ACTUAL yearly inflation rate (CPI) in Argentina?
Querida El Think :-)
I commend your knowledge of Italian language (that was already evident when you understood my nickname's meaning ... that is “Thief Catcher” for the benefit of other people here who don't know Italian ).
Anyway, when related to the Argentine president, “Demente Terminale” is in a way innovative wording.
I have been reading in Spanish, Englishe and Italian comments on her so many ... non-positive ;-) LOL... attributes but never “Demente Terminale”, so ChrisR deserves some copyright.
I am glad to to see that you are reading the most popular forum of Italian holdouts and post-swap investors in Argentine sovereign bonds:
but you have made some confusion ... my nickname in NOT “Arken” there (someboby else is frequently posting with that nick).
I'm always “Acchiappaladri”, here and everywhere else the topic is Argentine default and related facts.
P.S. Thank you for your kiss, as long as you are a “SHE” and not looking and thinking (well, “thinking” is perhaps a bit too much for her) like your current President LOL
Thanks for correcting my confusion.......
The “baci” was a brotherly one ..... From a hermano Argentino to a hermano Trentino (?)
Please, let's avoid kisses in this case LOL
Thank you for responding.
”The UK got ‘involved’ with the Singer lawsuit because Singers’ companies are registered in the Caymans (UK) and had a judgement in the favour against the AG government, who appealed and lost that as well.”
The instigation of this case was purely by Argentina, who (I think) thought they would have a more sympathetic hearing in the English Court, forgetting of course that our courts deal with the law, irrespective of the parties involved. I do not think in any way that an American Court would be influenced by the judgement of any other court.
It was a surprise to me to learn that significant numbers of ‘holdouts’ were Italian pensioners. I do hope that sooner, rather than later, they manage to get their money from the deadbeats of AG.
I’m happy you didn’t know of the massacre of so many Italian “Tangobond” holders: I assume it means you are not a victim or RG’s bond default. Good!
In late ‘90s Argentina had a good international reputation in many Western countries… a reborn democracy, the Falklands aggression belonging to its dictatorial past, peaceful at last with neighbours, plenty of natural resources, low inflation, many foreign investments in local businesses, IMF’s and Bill Clinton administration’s darling, low public debt, growing economy with a huge potential.
Argentine propaganda was especially effective in Italy: by instinct the average, poorly informed Italian felt (and still feels … many Italians have relatives in Argentina) Argentina to be a sort of appealing, friendly and rich sister-country.
Italian families traditionally are strong and prudent savers, investing much in “safe” sovereign bonds.
With domestic and European sovereign bonds yielding less and less, many people attempted to diversify in emerging markets.
When Argentina issued, under trustworthy foreign laws, many bonds that looked like being designed for retail investors, 450,000 Italians (most of them VERY small saving investors, many retired or soon to retire persons) were easily convinced that trusting Republic of Argentina was a good deal for a moderate risk/higher-than-domestic yield investment: its yield was lower than Brazil’s, Colombia’s, Venezuela’s but for the general public Argentina was more reliable and they chose it… what a painful mistake!
Many Italians mistook RG junk for (nearly) investment grade bonds.
About 14 billion (2001) USD, approx. 1% of Italian GNP, was invested AT PAR or even above !!! in Tangobonds and it fell victim of the December 2001 default: a national catastrophe.
In Germany that happened too, but scaled down to 1:4 approx.
Today approx. 80,000 robbed Italian retail investors are still alive and holding out (most of them litigating with Argentina at WB’s ICSID).
“In late ‘90s Argentina had a good international reputation in many Western countries… a reborn democracy”
Berlusconi would agree with you...
Sorry, but I don't understand your comment.
I suppose he would agree.
But why that is no noteworthy for you??? Wouldn't agree you too?
and any other person around the globe too, with good memories of what was usually written and told abroad about Argentina in the '90s?
Common understanting here was that Argentine democracy was killed by the military regime and that it was born again at the end of 1983 with the election of Raúl Alfonsín, then developing and strengtheing step by step in the following years into the '90s.
Was that a wrong understanding? Do you believe that under the generals' ruling Argentina had democratic governments?
“@340 good analysis”
Wait, wait !!
Guzz is about to come back with a limp inappropriate joke as a sulking rebuttle...
Thank you very much indeed for explaining that awful situation that you and your countrymen find themselves in.
I know EXACTLY what you mean about the falling rates in EU investments.
I took what my wife assured me was a stupid decision and put half of our liquidity into buying gold sovereigns. These are legal tender British coins so no VAT is payable, just a capital gains charge which can be set against allowable expenses.
In nine months we made 29.6% return on our investment and the coins stayed in one of my safes during that time so NOBODY could take our money. This helped to replace the 49% loss on our equity that the stupid idiot Brown did to many of the middle classes in Britain.
It is really difficult for the normal person, acting on their own, to keep ahead of any government. But what Argentina has done to millions of small savers with these bonds is despicable.
My sincere best wishes to you and your people.
#10&12 Excellent comments Guzz, kinda says it all, #75 is also outstanding
All of the trolls on here are Argentine.
Most of the Argentines on here are trolls.
However, there have been a few Argentinians on here who were not trolls and we enjoyed conversations with them.
The thing we had in common the most, was our dislike of CFK and her thieving from the people, and destruction of the Argentine economy.
lolololololol
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!