ARA Libertad can’t be impounded according to IMO, says Ambassador Castro
The International Maritime Organization (IMO) certified that the ARA Libertad frigate is a military vessel, therefore, it can not be impounded, Argentina's ambassador to the UK, Alicia Castro, reported.
The vessel does not have the commercial services registration number since it is a war vessel.
“The notification rules out the statements that had affirmed the vessel had a number of identification IMO, so it was defined as a services' ship”, said Ambassador Castro in contact with the Argentine media.
The UN organization seated in London confirmed that the “IMO number 6125398 has not been designated to this war vessel, and not to other ships.” This supports Argentina's position, in which the Libertad Frigate has immunity and can not be impounded.
The ARA Libertad frigate has been retained at the Tema port since Ghana since 2 October following an impound order from a local Judge on request from a New York court ruling favouring the NML Capital Investments hedge fund.
The impound litigation will be considered on Thursday and Friday at the Hamburg Court which deals with the UN Sea of the Law litigations.
Ms Castro who is also ambassador before IMO said “it was disappointing that some Argentine lawmakers and certain media have been releasing false information that could harm Argentina’s position vis-à-vis the ‘vulture funds’ avidity contrary to national interests”.
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This seems like too much of a minor technicality to alter the entire legal position.
I have a feeling that this will be a case of Argentina counting their chickens before they hatched. I mean they've never done that before, have they?
Oh wait, they always do that, then end up with egg on their faces.
In addition to this has there not been occasions where this lady has stated fact which proved to be false?
Finally, did Argentina not for go the immunity claim for this and all other vessels along with other public assets when the agreed to the bonds which they then have defaulted on?
Let's see what the outcome is from the courts on Thursday and Friday this week although I have a feeling that the firm line will be softened for Argentina even though they then go an abuse the maritime rules with regards to ships with the uk or Falklins fag
This supposedly supports the Argentine case, but it is hardly the victory some seem to be claiming.
www.clarin.com/politica/Dudas-estrategia-oficial_0_808119325.html
and the beauty of it........this is far from over!!!
The IMO wouldn't comment on something so contraversial and beyond their remit.
then coruption , backhanders , palm scratching, funny hand shakes,
spring to mind.
www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/
“ A 50% tax on raw material should solve the immediate problems in Argentina, Gold is going to be lucrative next year I heard, we love you CFK keep up the good work.”
Huh? What? Can you explain that -it's gibberish ?!
@12 BK
“Well said Ambassadora”
“ Ambassadora”?? BK, Pirat-Alex is a bi-sexual MAN, according to him.
“Pirates lose again.”
Yes, we have their ship!
Thanks for the link. I clearly see an IMO number.
”ARA Libertad (Q-2) (MMSI: ; IMO: 6125398)[2] is a tall ship which serves as a school ship in the Argentine Navy. She was built in the 1950s at the Río Santiago Shipyard near La Plata, Argentina. Her maiden voyage was in 1962, and she continues to be a school ship with yearly instruction voyages for the graduating naval cadets.”
Let the comedy continue.....
Then it'll be back to the camera's for more crying, lying, falsely accusing people, and stating that the ILOST doesn't have any power over Argentine sovereignty.
I'll offer evens that they try the UN Security Council, once more abusing their position as representative of South America and the Caribbean islands, to forward their own political agenda.
That really won't go down well the UNSC.
It's a blatent build up of reteric so that when the IMO make their judgement tomorrow, Argentina can either hail it as a victory to its people cos of it's lack of legal nouce. That or they will blame the world and wash their hands of any possible negativity attached to the case cos they are right and the world is wrong.
Simple.
www.imo.org/Pages/home.aspx
www.itlos.org/index.php?id=133
live feed
www.itlos.org/index.php?id=222
Paticularly good are these demands for restitution from Argentina:
“Offer a solemn salute to the Argentine flag as satisfaction for the moral damage caused by the unlawful detention of the flagship of the Argentine Navy
&
Impose disciplinary sanctions on the officials of the Republic of Ghana directly responsible for the decisions by which such state has engaged in the violations of its aforesaid international obligations.”
Further down they threaten the possibility of the loss of life should Ghana try to move their boat.
I can't watch the stream where I am at the moment.
You are not missing much, it is worse then listening to Alicia Castro
If somebody in such an esteemed diplomatic position as Alicia Castro makes that sort of statements I expect them to be backed by credible information. Surely she wouldn't just make this stuff up. So I can only assume the Libertad is about to become the, well, er, the Libertada.
Chuckle chuckle.
Wasn't the famous headline from Gente magazine in May 1982? “Estamos Ganando” (“We're Winning”)?
And what was the consequence of it turning out that after having sunk the same ship six times, and having had already dead pilots attacking other ships and so on, that it was all a fantasy and winning was about as far from what was actually happening?
What was it that George Santayana famously said? “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” ?
“Offer a solemn salute to the Argentine flag”
How many fingers does that require - one or two ?
The Law of the Sea (1958 convention and 1982 convention) provides complete inmunity to war ships and government ships when they are being used for “non-commercial purposes”, which is the case with the Libertad.
If I were ILOST, I think I would do everything I could to pass the decision on to someone else.
You are doing a lot of guessing these days or have you always been a guesser.
IMO have said something and you are guessing they are wrong.Doesnt suit your scenario does it.Just ignore it LEP ,the outcome will be what it is anyway.
Who will win the powerball LEP?
#37 Of course I can (and I try) to see this objectively. I´m not an expert on bonds, but I think that fact doesn´t waive anything. A private vessel, or a government vessel involved in commercial operations can be impounded, a government vessel involved in non-commercial operations cannot.
Perfectly true - but total sophistry.
First, whereas Article 32 of UNCLOS refers to the immunity of warships in the territorial sea, it does not refer to any such immunity when in internal waters. Article 32 provides that “with such exceptions as are contained in subsection A and in articles 30 and 31 (which are not at issue in the present case), nothing in this Convention affects the immunities of warships and other government ships operated for non-commercial purposes”. In other words, the Convention does not provide any rule or other guidance on the immunities of a “warship” which
is present in internal waters. Unlike Article 95 of the Convention which
stipulates in express terms that “warships on the high seas have complete
immunity from the jurisdiction of any State other than the flag State”, Article 32 does not establish any rule with regard to the grant of immunity (or any rule on the waiver of immunity).
Hmm, the last time 'I guessed' about Argentina complaining to an 'international body' I was right. That was when your Ambassador complained to the UNSC regarding the Falkland Islands. I 'guessed' that the UNSC would tell Argentina that the it was nothing to do with them, and my 'guess' was right.
You see, I make educated guesses, based on the remit of the international body in question and the evidence produced by both sides.
I'll admit that my gueses may turn out to be incorrect, but the probability based on facts is reasonably high that my 'guess' is right.
Perhaps you may want to try researching International bodies and using that research to make 'guesses' rather than rely on the incompetent guesses made by your La Campora pay masters, or your inept government.
Who can verify this?
www.usslibertyinquiry.com/law/jag2.html
To contact us, please telephone or email using the contact points below:
Head, Public Information Services
Lee Adamson
Tel: +44 (0)20 7587 3153
email: media@imo.org
External Relations Officer
Natasha Brown
Tel: +44 (0)20 7587 3274
email: media@imo.org
New Media Officer
Karine Langlois
Tel: +44 (0)20 7587 3191
email: media@imo.org
www.naviearmatori.net/eng/foto-135735-4.html
This is basically taken from the Law of the Sea, but it doesn't mention what would happen if a sovereign nation waived its sovereign immunity rights on ALL it's sovereign assets INCLUDING military hardware.
That is the crux of the matter here. The waiver signed by Argentina didn't specifically state that military hardware was exempt from the waiver, and the Ghanaian court judged that therefore NML had every right to recover some if it's lost debt by seizing the Libertad.
It is up to Argentina to somehow prove that the sovereign immunity waiver indeed didn't include military vessels. This it can't do because they never specifically stated it.
I don't actually believe that this situation ha ever been thought of before, because I doubt anyone believed that a sovereign nation would have signed a blanket immunity waiver the way Argentina did.
I think that the Law of the Sea Tribunal will be very reluctant to make a judgement in this case because:
1. It is outside of their remit, as they can't interfer with the internal law and judgements of sovereign states, and the Libertad hasn't been seized by a country it has been seized by a company that Argentina owes money to.
2. It sets a precedent, which means that it would be open to constant appeal, regardless of which way they decided.
My gut feeling is that they'll listen politely and then state that it is nothing to do with them because of (insert reason here), and refer both parties to the International Court of Justice.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
It would seem that merchant ships taken into use by any armed services have an IMO.
It also seems that countries taken over by a military junta have all materiel placed under military ownership.
It seems that Castro is arguing that if an item is transferred to the military it cannot be impounded by a third party.
Hmmm.
Just a thought;
my Brasilian neighbour's garden, the beach baraccas, and the Chinese-built port are within 30 metres of the high tide level, and therefore 'owned' by the nation's military. Good to know that they can never be impounded by 'vulture' creditors or a foreign bank .... ;-)
www.itlos.org/fileadmin/itlos/documents/cases/case_no.20/WRITTEN_STATEMENT_OF_THE_REPUBLIC_OF_GHANA_-_28_NOVEMBER_2012__2_.pdf
puts a fairly good case against UNCLOS ITLOS really having anything at all to do with this as many of the Argentine points relate to “high seas” and “territorial waters”... which dont apply as the Libertad is in “internal waters”.....
it also makes the case that neither ITLOS nor UNCLOS have any jurisdiction in the case.
the central issue in relation to this matter concerns the interpretation and application of a waiver of immunity that is found in the bonds. In its ruling on the question of immunity and the extent of the waiver, the decision of the High Court (Commercial Division) of Ghana was based on an interpretation of Argentina’s waiver that was based on judgments of courts in the United States and the United Kingdom.15Ghana notes that the Convention contains no rule or provision on the issue of waiver of immunity, and that the matter is entirely unregulated by the Convention. In its decision the Ghanaian Court did not base its conclusion on waiver of immunity on any provision of the Convention (and was plainly exercising a judicial function, independently and completely separately from other branches of the Ghanaian government). In the absence of any relevant provision of UNCLOS, Ghana submits that the Annex VII Tribunal has no jurisdiction over the issue of waiver of immunity in this matter.
Relatedly, Ghana can see no basis on which ITLOS could - at this limited jurisdictional phase under Article 290(5) – express any view on the merits of a Ghanaian High Court judgment on the interpretation and application of a waiver of immunity that is unrelated to any provision of the Convention.
- - -
As i've said before I think that Argentina will win a technical victory on this (for a variety of legal and political reasons) ... however whether or not that will result in the Libertad being “let free” is, al
Very interesting article. Seems to be the libertad should enjoy the same freedom as any american ship on the high seas. But we are a day away from ghana court case upon which argentina agreed to certain restrictions to allow its debt to be restructured/deferred... interesting times.
www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/
www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=257971
If the Ghanians hadn't heard of RGland two months ago they will certaintly have them pegged as a bunch of crunts now.
All Argentina's so called evidence at the ITLOS hearing was comprehensively demolished. They have no case and they were ridiculed for the claims they made.
#56 great joke can I borrow it, Lol we already did ask IMF for accountability but crooks wouldn't share the info, All we got was IMF deposit it all in a Swiss account, that's how IMF does busyness, if the world going bankrupt didn't show you how they theft you will need to order a functioning brain.
#58 lol why even mention it, when ignorant all they do is ignore.
#60 none of those pot bangers where Argentine, 99.9% of them were foreigners. Just to show you the facts look around! the same thing is going on here on mrecopress blogs, all English hate Argentina and all nationals support CFK, denial cannot hide this blogs and the people in it.
Always remember that Argentine patriots around the world love and support CFK 105%. While the english love and support IMF lol look around buddy can't you see?
www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/
Do you understand what percentages mean? - another maths fail!
+ Did you attend the demonstration and canvas the nationality of everyone there or did you just make that up?
“maybe the US and Brits use women as a shield but we Argentine are a little more gentlemen then that”
I remember Argentinians pointing rifles at women and children in the Falklands, and a certain unpaid wannabe Campora Juvenil from Toronto wanting to nuke all the unarmed civilians of the Falklands.
Is that 'Argentine honour'????
Try posting again when you move back here and try to make a living.
Oh, that's right - you can't!!!!
Criminal record for shoplifting perhaps??
Your arithmetic is faulty - like everything else you post.
You cannot get more than 100% of anything. Didn't they teach you that at school?
All English hate Argentines - not true, most don't give a monkeys about Argentina. A few of them are a little bemused at your countries antics on the international stage and the rest of the UK do not even think about you as your country is relatively unimportant in the great scheme of things.
Ok, First, stop trying to be Conqueror. The only person who can be Conqueror, is Conqueror himself, and he does it VERY well ( I don't know anyone else who is up to the job )
“All English hate Argentina and all nationals support CFK”.
Well I don't know now, shall we ask Simon68? He's an national and I have yet to see him “support CFK 105%”
and as for “All English hate Argentina”........ All English love Argentina, it's the Argentine Government that we don't like.
The people, I don't know any proper Argentinian's to make that call, but if this forum is anything to go by, then clear thinking seems to be a thing that other nations do. Again Simon68 seems to have cornered the market on that in Argentina.
It would appear that all the “nationals” of which you speak of support KFC / Ol' Turkey Neck / The Harpy / TMBOA from the safety of other countries, so excuse me if I don't take you seriously, you need to grow a pair and support KFC / Ol' Turkey Neck / The Harpy / TMBOA from inside Argentina before ANYONE starts listening to you without cracking up.................................. Clown.
are you Maximo?
“So what”?
PH was trying to claim some sort of 'moral high ground'.
Just making it very clear that Argentine does not follow a moral code of conduct, and PH is a hypocrit, when he personally calls for death to unarmed women and children.
Clear enough for you?
@70
“if Argentina is so bad why the UK insists in keeping “diplomatic” ties with the argentine goverment?”
I don't know that the UK is “insisting” anything.
However, Argentina is constantly criticising the UK for ignoring Argentina. :-)
Perhaps the UK feels it can work out some problems with Argentina if they still have a diplomatic channel?
What do YOU want, Fatso, isolation? declaration of war??
What would make you happy?
Pay up and you can have the boat back.
Simple is it not,
Yet so so complicated to instigate, by a leader who seemingly does not understand the concept of , you lend money,, then you pay it back.
Apparently these Argies seem to think, you are given money [freely] and everybody else pays it back, while you enjoy the fruits of your illegal gains.
ooommmphs we ask you lol.
LOL, LOL, LOL!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry, but there isn't ANY information that could possibly harm Argentina’s position any more than the Hapry herself has done so far.
Also bear in mind, that international lenders end their money on the assumption that the political leaders of the borrowing nations are honest citizens who manage the proceeds in a correct way - i.e. not corruptly. Does Argentina meet this criteria? I personally don't think so.
It is not too late for the average argentines to rise up and destroy the cancer that is Crustina from cripling argentina for many decades to come.
Crustinas Reich fears people power! and at this moment, she is terrified!!!!
www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=257971&comment=0#com
So one guess you made.And it was right.And as a statistican you know that 100% correct.So your next guess will be right.And your guess after that will be........right.
Really LEP.
So why have you only got a hunch about so things.
Because your guessing but it might be wrong.
You really go to some lengths to avoid disappointing outcomes.
Why would a country go to a court to establish a fact if that was the country that waived the fact?
I will guess you might say because its Argentina and the present gvt.
They won’t go to heaven,
,
Nice try to divert the thread.
As for disappointment, well I don't care enough about the outcome to be disappointed, I mean it's not my countries ship that has been impounded for non-payment of debt, is it?
I like to read and exercise my brain (you should try it occasionally), and from that reading and research I extrapolate the probable outcome.
Probabilities are never 100% certain. But it is good exercise for the mind to look at a point and counterpoint.
We'll know the outcome sometime tomorrow, won't we? And I'll get to see if my educated guess is right or wrong.
Notice the scathing sarcasm of Yuleno @80. Good call on the diversion.
Typical for him - nothing of substance in his posts, just anger and disdain . LOL
“FATSO” persona has appeared, elsewhere. The Troll “multi's” are filling in the vacuum left by Guzz .
Yup. Pity we now have to wait until Dec 15 for the result.
Nov 29th, 2012 - 10:17 pm
Guzz is gone? Where did he go then?
Oh I get it. He disappeared up his an arse didn't he? I knew it would happen, it is the Malvinista condition. The symptoms are:
Delusion, denial, deflection, bearing of teeth, a frothing of the mouth, a slurping sound and a comedy 'pop!'
It's a shame though I shall miss his musings. Some were pure comedy. In fact the first time I saw the term 'war monkey' it was Guzz trying to use it as an insult. I liked it so much I hijacked it.
Guzz, I assume, was purged by Mercopress and his IP blocked etc.
This fairly recently - not sure if he has reappeared as another persona.
The Troll multi personalities are quickly filling the vacuum he left.
Sure, Alicia, sure. It's amazing that you know what the IMO are going to say before the ILOST sits it judgement.
It is up to Argentina to somehow prove that the sovereign immunity waiver indeed didn't include military vessels. This it can't do because they never specifically stated it.
Two sentences from your posts on this thread.Do you see any inconsistency there the educated guesser.
Can't wait for your way round it.
Yul comes from somewhere else and is no apologist for Kichnerism.
90/92# Puppy
Could you repost 90# as most of it doesn't make much sense.Let me tell you something that is uncontroversially correct.At no time have I been upset,disturbed,annoyed or on the verge of heart problems in the last three months.I find Troy posting in support of you extremely funny.I also find some of your out of character posts(more frequent than the earlier posts) somewhat funny.Question.Is it your father's service ID that you would use to sustain your posture of being an ex-serviceman,and are you a vegetarian as well as an organic only eater.Bet you do yoga too?uh
Pull your head out of your ASS and read slowly.
Dad's long dead
I am a vet, my DD214 proves it
I love my meat AND veggies
and I do some yoga, stretching goes well before a workout
and what was it.....I keep my wife chained in a closet you said, or something like that when you lost your composure?
”91# Good to hear you are still there Geoff.Quality is lacking in posts I think.
90/92# Puppy
Could you repost 90# as most of it doesn't make much sense.Let me tell you something that is uncontroversially correct.At no time have I been upset,disturbed,annoyed or on the verge of heart problems in the last three months.I find Troy posting in support of you extremely funny.I also find some of your out of character posts(more frequent than the earlier posts) somewhat funny.Question.Is it your father's service ID that you would use to sustain your posture of being an ex-serviceman,and are you a vegetarian as well as an organic only eater.Bet you do yoga too?uh“
Yuleno, I don't imagine you get upset at issues. I don't remember seeing you ever discuss one. You only come on at the tail end of a thread, with nothing of relevance.
Your talent/passion/hangup seems to be provoking and goading people - a ”wind-up artist” and nothing more.
Enjoy Christmas and the holidays !! Poppy will, I know that, and I will, too. It will be fun drinking wines in Napa California, and enjoying the seafood and parties in San Francisco on New Years.
You'll be festering in your own misery, I expect.
LOL
Your talent/passion/hangup seems to be provoking and goading people - a ”wind-up artist” and nothing more.”
Troy I think Yuleno is one of the senior campora leader. Is role is not to stay and play, just stoke the fire as it starts to die. His tactic is to come into near the end, restate what someone has said with a mild insult or a thinly veiled one, then shoot a handful of off topic questions at you.
Troy have a merriest of Christmas and a healthy New Year and have a blast in California.
”91# Good to hear you are still there Geoff.Quality is lacking in posts I think.
90/92# Puppy
Could you repost 90# as most of it doesn't make much sense.Let me tell you something that is uncontroversially correct.At no time have I been upset,disturbed,annoyed or on the verge of heart problems in the last three months.I find Troy posting in support of you extremely funny.I also find some of your out of character posts(more frequent than the earlier posts) somewhat funny.Question.Is it your father's service ID that you would use to sustain your posture of being an ex-serviceman,and are you a vegetarian as well as an organic only eater.Bet you do yoga too?uh“
Yuleno, I don't imagine you get upset at issues. I don't remember seeing you ever discuss one. You only come on at the tail end of a thread, with nothing of relevance.
Your talent/passion/hangup seems to be provoking and goading people - a ”wind-up artist” and nothing more.
Enjoy Christmas and the holidays !! Poppy will, I know that, and I will, too. It will be fun drinking wines in Napa California, and enjoying the seafood and parties in San Francisco on New Years.
You'll be festering in your own misery, I expect.
LOL
Just thought I would emulate your copy and paste skills Troy
Sorry about wasting other people's time,but that's it.Nothing of significance added in this post :)
What are the chances that RG will get her back, in your mind?
Is this something RG will have to do forever because they think defaulting on debts makes them go away?
Do you think after the February ruling that MNL will start on Aerolinas as they fly into Florida?
1/Don't know must be aggression or Somalian backed
2/Good
3/No
4/No.
Is that ok for you Troy.
How do you calculate the odds, extrapolate based on history?
I guess Argieworld will eventually realize her assets cannot leave SA as her debts do not disappear because a country decides not to pay them.
So Aerolinas will stop flights to the USA? I flew that airline......scary as hell in the summer.
so the Libertad cannot be a war if it is incapable of self defense. It is a shame as I've been on her and she is a beauty. Perhaps Singer will donate her and put her next to the Constitution.
Perdon me but was there a beginning in this sentence.
Help me Troy can you intervene here and explain this post.
Like LEP (are you with me here pup) you could make an educated guess based on the known facts but it could be right or it could be wrong.But it would help if you kept to the issue.
When you were on the libertad puppy,did you see the guns and the women's quarters?
I like Pup, I might change my charter business to Captain Pup's Reef Charters.
LOL eleventh hour shit-disturbing again.
Bitter bitter bitter and irrelevant.
Got anything to say regarding the thread?
I thought not.
LOL. miserable creep.
These people are all discredited has-beens who are respected by nobody - most of them are all so called “revolutionaries” who try to change the world to their twisted ideas.
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