Thursday, December 20th 2012 - 18:00 UTC

ARA Libertad: Ghana port authority lost 7.6m dollars; could demand NML Capital

Ghana’s Ports and Harbours Authority (GPHA) admits to having lost 7.6 million dollars as a result of the Argentine frigate ARA Libertad's occupation of its prime berth for a period of 76 days, reports Accra’s Graphic Online.

The Argentine Navy flagship since 2 October occupied a prime berth

Ghanaian officials have indicated their intention to pursue Map Shipping Agency, agents for NML Capital Limited, a hedge fund group which impounded the Argentine Navy vessel, to recover 18.278 dollars being rent charges for the 76 days that the Frigate spent at the Tema Habour.

The acting Director of the Tema Port, Jacob Adorkor who disclosed this in an interview in Tema, said the GPHA would decide whether the 7.6 million should be waved as an opportunity cost or institute a legal action against the representatives of NML Capital to recover the loss revenue.

“Since the GPHA as an entity was not party in the matter, any economic loss by the Authority as a result of the action taken by the creditors which sought to deprive GPHA of its revenue must be borne by them”, Adorkor said.

The training vessel Libertad, which was detained at the Tema Port on October 2, this year, at a point saw the crew members brandished weapons to stop port authorities from relocating it to a new berth in the wake of a court ruling secured by officials.

The seizure of the ship was at the behest of NML Capital Ltd, who is demanding full compensation from the Argentine government following the country’s financial default over a decade ago.

The detention at the time apart from depriving the GPHA of the needed revenue further created serious congestion at the port.

Officials of the GPHA, acting on a high court ruling of November 5, 2012, to relocate the vessel from berth 11, a commercial area to a safer site to make way for business space at the berth, had to abandon the exercise for fear of lives.

Adorkor described the detention and the follow-up drama as unfortunate, since Ghana as a sole entity was not involved in the processes that lead to the detention.

On Wednesday ARA Libertad left for Argentina where she is expected to arrive on January 9 to a great celebration at the port of Mar del Plata.

 

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1 Nostrolldamus The 3rd (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:08 pm Report abuse
LOL.

No wait.

ROTFL.

.

.

.

No wait again.

.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
2 Joe Bloggs (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:22 pm Report abuse
It's a good thing that you're not a typical Argentine because you are just downright nasty.
3 Stevie (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:26 pm Report abuse
NML loosing money in trying to make profit from a country's default.

Priceless!
4 Vulcanbomber (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
It would be so funny if a submarine accidentally sunk the Libertad, perhaps as it was surfacing whilst doing some range finding on Mar de Plata and BA ahead of UK finally returning some of the bad stuff Argentina has done over the years
5 Spainexpat (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
@3 Steve Argie

You clearly don't understand how these funds work.
6 Stevie (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
Spainexpat
But of course I do, they buy bonds that normal people can't collect be it for not having the time or the money to do so. They buy them at reduced price and claim full price for them, even adding a monstruous rent.

Many nations have had problems with hedge funds, and almost all agrees on the need to stop their vulturing, as they never lend money to anyone.

Actually, if I don't remember wrong, Britain is a front-runner in the “war” against hedge funds.
7 JoJo (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 06:43 pm Report abuse
How is the corvette Espora doing? Will she be home for the 9J celebrations?
8 briton (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 07:00 pm Report abuse
said the GPHA would decide whether the 7.6 million should be waved as an opportunity

perhaps one should just leave it at that,
and put it down to expirence..
9 Bongo (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 07:20 pm Report abuse
Told you Ghana would be glad to get rid of it.
10 Spainexpat (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 07:28 pm Report abuse
Your right that the UK is a frontrunner in curtailing these type of hedge funds. But the financial sector unfortunately needs these so called 'vulture' funds to act as a deterrent for any nation deciding to go rogue as in the case of Argentina.
11 Stevie (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 07:33 pm Report abuse
Spainexpat
As long as noone acts as deterrent for bonds that are imposed on poor(er) nations in order to avoid defaults, I don't see how one can defend these type of funds.
12 Exocet (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 09:52 pm Report abuse
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAH...

.... again...

HAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHA..

i need to take a breath,....

AHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

anyone has something to say?, keep crying!! Pirates! ..

viva la patria! muerte al pirata!
13 lord soctt the third (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:04 pm Report abuse
wow ur country dont pay its debt but because you got a third rate ship back from brink of debt collectors your country rejoice... hHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS IS THE REST OF THE WORLD.
14 Think (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:15 pm Report abuse
TWIMC

As a service to all Anglo Turnips that have shown some extraordinary interest for Argentinean Ships during the past many weeks, I can inform that.....:

The ARA Espora has just left Simon's Town, ZA and is “en route” to Brazil.....
15 Britworker (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:16 pm Report abuse
I'm not sure Ghana have played this one out too well, still they have had their first dealings with the Argies and I am sure learnt from the experience. The only language they understand is a damned good thorough beating.
Next time they will be better prepared.
16 Shed-time (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:19 pm Report abuse
@15 They learned never to trust an argentine and in the world, that's the golden rule. The fact is Argentina looked like clowns, the Ghanaian authorities looked lawful and they eventually got rid of the sh!t boat.

In addition some morally vacuous people got to make comments about borrowing money and not paying it back is quite right.

End of.
17 Britworker (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:47 pm Report abuse
@17
In your wet dreams.lol
Oh, why have you named yourself after an out of date french missile, how apt.
18 Falklands are British (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 10:54 pm Report abuse
This is how it works:

Governments issue debt (bonds).
Those who can buy in the primary market (direct from the bond issuer) are very limit in number (approved serious wealthy institutions). It is a very restricted and selective market.
For this reason there is a secondary market where anyone can buy these bonds in much lower quantities from those who primarily purchase and create a new market,
The interest yield from a bond increases as the price of a bond falls (the yield is inverse to its price) and yields increase as the prospects of a default increase. Price of the bonds fall.
The secondary market exists for as long as the bonds exist.
Who holds the bonds are entitled to receive the coupon from the bond irrespective of when they bought the bonds and irrespective of whatever they paid (the price they paid reflected the risk) however they are still entitled to payment of the coupon (interest on the bond) .
How many debtors dictate to their creditors what they will pay when they are in default?

FCUK ME

There is o such thing as vulture funds. These groups allow bond holders to get out of their poor investments (to drop scum like Argentina) with at least something and without waiting for years and possibly when they are dead when such a return could be made.
19 Orbit (#) Dec 20th, 2012 - 11:53 pm Report abuse
Chump change.
20 Xect (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 12:11 am Report abuse
It's a fun game and one which NML are quite clearly winning. They know when they perform these actions ultimately the law may go against them but this isn't the point of the action, its to embarrass Argentina and mission truly accomplished here when they've managed to impound the Argentine flagship for a good period of time.

There are no victories for any country being dragged through the mud in this way. Argentina can't possibly see this as a victory having a 'warship' impounded by a foreign hedge fund for a long period of time.

Can you think of any respectable nation that has suffered this type of embarrassment?

Still I've said it before and I will say it again, I think its wrong than NML has been successful at embarrassing Argentina and the chances are it will soon force Argentina into a default.
21 Bongo (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 12:43 am Report abuse
Xect,

Argentina do see it as a victory.

Look at the above posts.
22 Anbar (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 01:12 am Report abuse
How are they going to claim the money from NML?

It was the Ghana Courts that imposed the seizure, not NML.... isnt that bleeding obvious to anybody with an ounce of common sense?
23 Marcos Alejandro (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:07 am Report abuse
“Ghana port authority lost 7.6m dollars; could demand NML Capital”
Ke pelotu2 :-))))))))))))))))))))))))
24 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 06:08 am Report abuse
Look out! the Bailiffs about!!!
25 Stevie (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 07:09 am Report abuse
Quite simple Anbar. Should NML not pay, it would most certain be the last time any judge will run their case.
26 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 07:21 am Report abuse
In Ghana maybe, but what happens in one country does not affect how another countries court will rule. Lets not forget, Ghana has an effective government with the rule of law. What could have happened had the Libertad been seized in a less scrupulous country? where money does talk.
If that happened, whoever gave the biggest bribe would have had the upper hand. NML would have offfered a big slice of the pie as an inducement, a donation so to speak. We all know it goes on.
If I was them, ruling or not, I would be careful where I docked in future.
27 Stevie (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 07:40 am Report abuse
Reality check
NML is running out of countries as it is. Some 30 cases have been disputed between NML and Argentina, resulting in NML loosing all of them. Not even in USA did the manage to withhold Arg assets, and a country with less scruples will be hard to find.
28 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 09:01 am Report abuse
You think so? I disagree. As you say, so far these cases have taken place in stable countries, with proper democracies and the rule of law. Despite what some Argentines have been saying, this also includes Ghana.

My point was, that had this happened in a country with far less scruples about democracy, whose leaders hold Swiss Bank Accounts and they do exist, this could have had a different ending.

As I understand it the American court cases are still ongoing and have not yet been settled, am I wrong?
29 Think (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 09:12 am Report abuse
(27) Stevie

I have, with increasing pleasure, been reading your reasonable and quite objective posts in here at MercoPress…

I like your critical approach to the Argentinean administration where critic is (mostly) due…

I value your positive approach to the Argentinean administration where praise is deserved too…

I gather that you are not Argentinean but some informed World citizen (Nationality irrelevant)….

Anyhow…. Nice to have you on board….. Too few of “You” in here”….. too many “Turnips”.

Best regards
El Think
Chubut, Argentina.

PS:
Just a little “political joke”, in case you understand Spanish :-)
www.pagina12.com.ar/fotos/20121221/rudypaz/na01di01.gif
30 Conqueror (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 10:15 am Report abuse
@27 I'd like to direct your attention to this article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

I don't know where you're from or the state of your country's education system but I suggest that you carefully read the first sentence of the second paragraph. Get the content firmly fixed in your brain.

When I was at school, many years ago, and in all the years since 193 minus 30 equals 163. Rounded up in accordance with normal mathematical rules, it should be clear that the remainder, 163, represents 84.5% of the original figure.

So please explain how NML would be “running out” of countries in which to bring to a court's attention the failure of argieland to abide by judgements of other courts.

Looking back over your comments, I see a distinct predilection toward being anti-northern, anti-finance and being pro-pariah. You may think that you have now obtained the ultimate accolade, approval from Twinky. It isn't an accolade. Over time Twinky has descended from coherent discussion to being niggly. Nothing more than a nuisance without credibility. You have reached a nadir!
31 Stevie (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 10:55 am Report abuse
reality check
Maybe there are some corrupt nations out there that are prepared to overlook international law in order to make some profit running NML's businesses, but I fail to see why any nation would take any assets to these above mentioned places.

Think
A pleisure to be here, and I surely hope I can contribute with something constructive to the debate.

My Spanish is rusty to say the least, although I do follow the developments in Latin America on a daily basis.

Conqueror
Quite a lot of those 193 nations are on Argentinas side in this matter, so you would have to rest much more than 30 from those 193, starting with CELAC, and adding the vast majority of the developing nations.
Not many of these nations would take on Argentina in order to help NML, and as far as I know, only USA and Ghana have actually tried NML's demands in a court, the rest have been dismissed long before even reaching these institutions.
I could be wrong on that last statement, please correct me if I am.

In regards to your comments about my ideology and possible thought about certain parts of the world, I must say you simplify things far to much, I'm not a magnet that prefers south to north, and the world is notideologically divided at the Equator. Finance is a fact of life and you can disagree on how it should be presented and controlled, but it's hard to be against finance itself. And finally Pariah. I assume you mean I am pro Pariah states. Well, if that's the case, I wouldn't know where you get that from, as the current Pariah states to this day that I know of, are:

Belarus
Israel
North Korea
Iran
Syria
Zimbabwe

I have never ever mentioned a single word about these states, so I really don't know what comments you must have been reading.
32 Shed-time (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 12:45 pm Report abuse
Allowing Argentina to take money and then categorically refuse to pay it back is immoral.

There needs to be a debtors prison for nations such as this.
33 Simon68 (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 01:21 pm Report abuse
As Sr. Stevie said @25, if NML don't pay for Ghana's losses during this retention of ARA Libertad, they will not get a positive judgement anywhere else in the world.

I would say that from NML's point of view, US$ 7.6 million is a small investment to pay for the humilliation that Argentina has unfortunately suffered in this business. The whole point of these hedge funds is to humilliate their victim in the same way that hire purchase companies humilliated their debtors in times past.

Let us be thankful that the humilliation is over, and that we have a breathing space until 27th. February to find a solution to te problem of repaying this part of our debts.

It is interesting to note that with the latest payment of US$ 3.5 billion we have effectively lost the famous 70% benefit Nestor Kirchner told us that we had “earned” from the restructuring of the loans in 2005 and 2010. We are now well down te road to paying out more to our creditors than we originally owed them!!!!!!!
34 Shed-time (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 01:51 pm Report abuse
@33 Just so you argentines are aware. Judgements aren't based upon having paid some fee that may or may not be your responsibility. The judgement from the ITLOS was between Argentina and Ghana. The court case relating to the impounding of the ship was between NML and Argentina. The two things are pretty much unrelated.

If the ITLOS decide to release the ship in order to prevent Argentines from shooting dock-workers, then this isn't the responsibility of NML in any way or form.

You mullet-strokers don't seem to understand the law.
35 HansNiesund (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 01:54 pm Report abuse
@31

Interesting list of pariahs there. Have you noticed which proportion among them typically votes with Argetina at the UN?
36 Shed-time (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:05 pm Report abuse
@35 well Israel votes with Argentina and also gives them weaponry during times of war (Falklands war). The USA gives Israel $6bil a year to buy and make weapons, which ultimately could be then sent to Argentina to be used to subjugate falkland islanders and kill british soldiers.

Does this answer your question?
37 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:17 pm Report abuse
Shedtime.
I had a late friend who was in 9 Para during the war. He fought against SS units and hated them with a passion. Before he was demobed they posted him to Palestine, after what happened to his mates there, he came to hate the Israelis with just has much venom. Miss the old boy, passed away this time last year.
38 Simon68 (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:18 pm Report abuse
34 Shed-time (#)
Dec 21st, 2012 - 01:51 pm

This is a case of pragmatism, not law!!!!!

NML has got its money's worth from slapping an embargo on the Libertad, it managed to thoroughly humilliate the Argentine nation, now from a PRAGMATIC point of view it is well worth NML's paying off the costs involved to Ghana so that any future court cases in other parts of the world may be looked on more favourably.

This really has nothing to do with the ITLOS descision only with what may serve NML in its future dealings with nations!!!!!!
39 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:57 pm Report abuse
Simon.
Think you summed it up, spot on. NML probably thought, what the hell, it's worth a try. From a point of an ex British serviceman, I'm glad to see it resolved this way. Your sailors were serving their country and did not deserve the embarrasment of having their ship taken from them in that manner, not being a Navy man, I believe Slatzzz or Chicureo could probably explain it better. I do believe that sailors have a special relationship with the ships they serve on.

To those Argentine posters on here who say my opinion is two faced, no it is not. There was an opportunity to have a pop at you (If you can understand the concept) I took it with both hands and will continue to do so, especially my current favourite, of switching ARA for IOU, irrresistable, really.

Anyway Simon, as one Ex Emergency Service member to another, may I take this opportunity to wish you and yours, a Very Merrry Christams and a Happy New year, may TMBOA not screw your life up too much in 2013.
40 Simon68 (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 03:18 pm Report abuse
39 reality check (#)
Dec 21st, 2012 - 02:57 pm

Thank you very much for your good wishes, which I amplify and return to you and yours.

With regard to CFK, she has already soured the festive season to such an extent that the only recourse is drink to world peace in the excellent Malbec which is not being exported to the EU/US/UK and is fortunately available to us!!!!
41 ProRG_American (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 03:27 pm Report abuse
Squirm, churn, toss and turn and lick your wounds y'all.
Corrupt Ghana Government, NML, Brit Turnips and MI6 conspirators going at each others throats.
I love this! HaHahHaHA!
Wheres 007? Wheres the ROYAL NAVY?

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to
y'all. I know it will be for me.

YPF up today?
42 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 03:37 pm Report abuse
Fake Yank.

Same to you Yank. What suprises me is that I mean it, shit! better get the wife to take this bottle of wine away.
43 Brit Bob (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
@41 ProRG

'Corrupt Ghana Government,' well at least Ghana didn't come in at 102nd place in the World's Index of Corrupt Nations did it.

cpi.transparency.org/
44 CJvR (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 03:46 pm Report abuse
@41

Corrupt?
They followed the decision of the court, which I strongly doubt the current Argie regime would have done.
45 Yuleno (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 04:21 pm Report abuse
Simon 68
What get into your head.Nml haven't spent anything yet.They have humiliated Argentina.Argentina come out of this affair with credit for acting responsibly under great provocation.
Ghana is now crying for recompense when they should have checked whether they should have acceded to the request of a pariah business.
Nml have added another nail into this parasitic form of finance capitalism and brought the day of its restrictions,demise would be a wish,closer.
All that remains is for lessons to be learned and stupid acceptance of neo-liberal logic to be exposed as having a practical consequence.
And your thinking Simon68 is obiviously not a successful way to think.You should change it and if Nml don't pay Ghana that might help you realise what you need to look at
Viva Argentina
46 ProRG_American (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 04:29 pm Report abuse
Lads, in this Holiday season I raise my glass of Bubbly in your honor and that of CFK. For the total and complete dragging in the mud of NML heroic by Argentina and its heroic Government.
For a succesful and Malvinense 2013 to us all.
Cheers!
47 Shed-time (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 05:04 pm Report abuse
@45 I guess you didn't see their oral presentations to the tribunal then. They came out of this looking like a bunch of incompetent clowns, desperate to avoid following the legal process in any way or form. The only thing that saved the day was the fear that argentina was going to start shooting people or cause a war.

Interesting how you are capable of spinning this into something positive, but that's la campora and the Front for FAIL for you.
48 Raul (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 05:16 pm Report abuse
46 ProRG_American

Health ProRG-American and all Argentine and Latin American in the win against vulture funds that were supported by racism, colonialism and imperialism English!
49 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 05:56 pm Report abuse
Excuse me Raul.

Pisses me off to be left out!!!!!

What you mean is. Rascist, colonialist, Imperialistic BRITISH!!!!!!!!!!

I know your not posting in your first language, but that's no excuse, you really should make the effort for Xmas.

Glass is raised, cheers Raul!!!!!
50 Nostrolldamus The 3rd (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 05:58 pm Report abuse
Massive anti-argie dyspepsia!!

Guess what haters?? Wine Spectator and Wine Enthusiast (two of the top ANGLO-SAXON wine publications), have come out with their top wines of the year.

They are VERY USA-centric naturally, so some major bias is expected (albeit all wine publications are biased to their local industry), so the USA wine “dominance” should be taken with a MAJOR cube of salt...

However that fact makes it more remarkable when as a foreign maker you actually score with out-of-country publications....

Wine Spectator top 10 wines:

10. Achaval-Ferrer Malbec Finca Bella (La consulta RVR -MENDOZA)
9. Italy
8. United States
7. United States
6. France
5. France
4. France
3. Australia
2. France
1. United States

www.winespectator.com/display/show?id=47551

Wine Spectator

10. Spain
9. United States
8. France
7. New Zealand
6. United States
5. United States
4. Italy
3. United States
2. France
1. Gran Corte Las Divas Vineyard (Tupungato RVR - MENDOZA)

buyingguide.winemag.com/toplists/2012/wines#wines/10-1

ONLY NON-USA COUNTRIES TO SHOW IN BOTH LISTS:

France, Italy, ARGENTINA.

Only one of those three countries to have a top 2012 wine: ARGENTINA

Which province: MENDOZA, MENDOZA, MENDOZA.

hahahahahahahaha... so much for talking smack about Argie wine, once again proven that I spoke the truth, and you losers lied!

May the diarrhea keep flowing anti-haters! Mendoza wine! jojojo
51 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 06:16 pm Report abuse
Now I really must lodge a complaint at the way you Argies like to class us all as English.

You see when the English sailed 8,000 miles to kick your sorry asses out of the Islands in 82, shhhh, shhhh, now, shhhh, keep this secret! quite a few of them were jocks, paddies and taffs. Some of them were even Johnny Ghurkhas.

Bet you did not know, the Jocks, Paddies and Taffs lined up along the rails of the sips and cheered the Legendary warriors of Nepal aboard. Man it really pissed them off, they sailed all that way, they do not like to sail you know. Then when they got there, you fucked off before they could kill you.

Bloody inconsiderate, thats what I call it. After all, they made the effort, coming all that way, the least you could have done, was to stop and say hello.
52 Yuleno (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 06:37 pm Report abuse
I see why you call yourself reality check,you need one.
And if colonialism is over why didnt France say sorry.Or did they to themselves.
What do you think reality check.Give me something to laugh about.Oh oh I'm falling already.
53 reality check (#) Dec 21st, 2012 - 07:20 pm Report abuse
Oh, France! That would be the place where we went for a paddle at the seaside on the 6th of June. 1944.

Then again, it could be the place where my grandad picked poppies between 1914-1918.
54 Hepatia (#) Dec 22nd, 2012 - 03:26 am Report abuse
en.mercopress.com/2012/12/20/ara-libertad-ghana-port-authority-lost-7.6m-dollars-could-demand-nml-capital#comment200203: I do not understand. Why would you want to put the UK into a (metaphorical) debtors' prison?
55 Pirat-Hunter (#) Dec 22nd, 2012 - 08:59 pm Report abuse
Follow the truth.
www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/

Argentine's Around the world love CFK because she delivered her promises to All Argentine's. We Invite the english people to use their ideas fixing their own country and leave Argentina for us Argentine's to fix, thanks but noooooo thanks!
56 ProRG_American (#) Dec 23rd, 2012 - 04:42 pm Report abuse
La Nacion and C5N have confirmed that ARA Espora has sailed from South Africa and is headed towards the Brazilian coast where it will join ARA Libertad to escort it into Mar Del Plata Naval base on January 9, 2013.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
57 Pete Bog (#) Dec 23rd, 2012 - 10:44 pm Report abuse
@55
“she delivered her promises to All Argentine's”

I'm glad English people don't get promises like hers, she never keeps them (and our politicians are bad enough).

She made a promise to take the companies drilling for oil around the Falklands to court.

That doesn't seem to have actually happened.

Still waiting.
58 British_Kirchnerist (#) Dec 24th, 2012 - 07:28 pm Report abuse
Hope Ghana gets some of its money back fro the vultures, thought they were idiots to take up their cause in the first place...

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