Atlantic countries concerned with UK presence in Falklands; call for talks with Argentina
Twenty one countries from South America and Africa strongly supported their commitment to keep the South Atlantic free of arms of massive destruction and expressed concern over the British military presence in the Falklands/Malvinas, which are claimed by Argentina.
The South Atlantic Zone of Peace and Cooperation, (ZOPACAS), which was created in 1986 by a UN General Assembly resolution, underlined its “commitment with the consolidation of the South Atlantic as a zone of peace and cooperation free of nuclear and other arms of massive destruction” and called on other countries to acknowledge it as such.
The statement was released at the end of a ZOPACAS ministerial two-day meeting in Uruguay collected in the “Declaration of Montevideo”, an 18 pages with 124 articles document.
The group is made up of 24 countries, three from South America (Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil) and 21 from Africa all of them with coast on the Atlantic Ocean.
The declaration calls for “quick and unconditional end to colonialism in all its forms and manifestations” and for the resumption of negotiations between Argentina and the UK in accordance with the UN resolution on the “Falklands/Malvinas question”, the South Atlantic archipelago which Argentina argues is under British control since 1833.
“In this context we see with concern the development of illegitimate hydrocarbons exploration activities in the disputed zone as well as the strengthening of the UK military presence in the zone”, reads a passage of the declaration.
The 21 countries also asked for an “urgent reform” of the UN Security Council so that it becomes “more representative of developing countries, efficient and transparent” and for “an international financial architecture more representative in which the developing countries have a greater representation and voice”.
Likewise it was agreed to increase cooperation among country members in the fields of science, technology, education, coastal patrolling, environment, trade and defence.
In defence there is the need to establish mechanisms for an efficient exchange between authorities and institutions, combined military exercises, official visits and other programs to enhance the construction of the defence capabilities of the zone.
In a second document titled “Plan of Action of Montevideo” there is a commitment to cooperate in sea bed exploration, preservation of the marine environment, air and maritime transport, maritime and port security and combined efforts to combat organized trans-national crime, among other areas.
The issue of governance and promoting economic development was addressed at the ministerial discussions and some referente added to the declaration.
Finally ministers pledged to revitalize the organization for which the group’s representatives will be meeting annually on the side lines of the UN General Assembly and every two years hold regular events.
Born as a project to revalue South-South cooperation, the group has so far managed to hold six Foreign ministers meetings, the last of which in Angola. For the event in Montevideo Defence ministers were invited. The next meeting is scheduled in Cape Verde in 2015.
Representatives from Angola, Benin, Cape Verde, Cameroon, Congo, Ivory Coast, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, Namibia, Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Senegal, South Africa and Togo together with their peers from Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay attended the ministerial meeting in Montevideo.
Guinea-Bissau, Saint Tomé and Principe and Sierra Leone were absent.
In his closing words Uruguayan Foreign minister Luis Almagro who will be presiding ZOPACAS until 2015 underlined peace and regional integration between South America and Africa.
“ZOPACAS is above all a peace project and a contribution to preserve the region from armamentism threats and militaristic temptations, opening instead wide paths for cooperation between out two continents”, said Almagro.
Suggested Stories
-
May 23rd 2013
Cristina Fernandez administration limits overseas dollar extractions to a minimum
-
May 21st 2013
Falkland Islands: it’s a three-side debate; Argentina must recognize Islanders right to decide their future
-
May 20th 2013
Brazil trapped by Argentina and Venezuela economic mismanagements
-
May 17th 2013
Argentina’s ‘autarkic project’ worsens bilateral relations and multiplies problems
229 comments Feed
Note: Comments do not reflect MercoPress’ opinions. They are the personal view of our users. We wish to keep this as open and unregulated as possible. However, rude or foul language, discriminative comments (based on ethnicity, religion, gender, nationality, sexual orientation or the sort), spamming or any other offensive or inappropriate behaviour will not be tolerated. Please report any inadequate posts to the editor. Comments must be in English. Thank you.
As you were the Falklands and the UK.
Well the UN says that 'free association' is a suitable end to colonialism, surely that's the matter closed. End of.
”for the resumption of negotiations between Argentina and the UK in accordance with the UN resolution“ [2]
Well the UN resolution is closed because the falkland islands are self governing and chose to be a BOT through free-association with the UK. The resolution is resolved. End of.
”The 21 countries also asked for an “urgent reform” of the UN Security Council so that it becomes “more representative of developing countries, efficient and transparent” [3]
So in [3] Argentina is so morally deviant that it thinks paying its bills is a crime against it, so they're expecting the security council to be more representative of morally deviant countries? uh, really?
“In this context we see with concern the development of illegitimate hydrocarbons exploration activities in the disputed zone as well as the strengthening of the UK military presence in the zone” [4]
In [4] they didn't see the sense in inviting the FIG, UK, Norway... any of the atlantic ridge countries in order to express their concerns? or just spout the usual copypasta Argentine monologue?
It's just moronia at its worst.
We all know the true answers to these points (although SA and Argentina will profess something different with no proof). Argentina wants to colonise the Falklands, the UKs military presence is in direct response to the Argentine threat, brazil is militarising the Atlantic through their arms process, there are no weapons of mass destruction down there that we can officially know of and the UN resolutions call for and do not require talks.
I know the UK has more pressing and important matters to deal with but the longer this goes on the more we simply look stupid and, dare I say it, weak. I don’t want us to go to war but I do want us to protect the places we have a responsibility to protect… Namely the Falklands, Gibraltar etc. Our government need to show our calm strength and clear resolve a directly as possible to these countries by actively working with and bring on side the other SA and African countries. I am confident given the choice these countries would rather work with and have a relationship with the UK than Argentina.
So intimidating passengers of cruise liners and the companies that run them is peaceful and cooperative?
''The declaration calls for “quick and unconditional end to colonialism in all its forms and manifestations”
Are the african states up in arms over Ascension or St Helena? No, didn't think so as they acknowledge them for what they ACTUALLY are.
French Guiana however IS a colony but I've yet to hear any word about that from the Malvinistas on Mercopress when they rattle on about colonies.
@1 Elaine
The arms of mass destruction are attached the bodies of the rioters in Bs As.
Sun Zi, a chinese strategist, suggested that when you are in a strong position, you should actually appear weak. So don't fear looking weak, because it ultimately helps you in a war; the opposition will underestimate you completely.
Finally the japanese samurai would shout in order to intimidate the opposition, but it only relied on one defining stroke to the kote (hands) or men (head) that allowed the intimidated to become the winner.
You don't look weak by having someone intimidate you, you only look weak if you are intimidated. However, the winner is the one who cleaves the other person's head in two or cuts their hands off.
Dealing with the argentines is no different.
Interesting to read on sites like 'La Nacion/tn.com.ar/Clarin' there is no support for attacking the Falklands, either economically or militarily and is clearly seen as a distraction from the economic meltdown. The people of Argentina will not be fooled again either...
Very interesting reading. Thanks for that.
I know it shouldnt bother me but these bullying tatics by CFK and her team are infuriating and seeing other countires stand by them, agree with them or turn a blind eye to them is very disapointing.
They try to make a full of us as a country... Being patriotic that really infuriates me!
In other news, foreign ministers of Atlantic countries enjoy holiday in Montivideo at taxpayers expense, productive talks impossible due to Argentina
Apparently there is some gym bunny down in the Falklands with massive guns ...
“we see with concern...the strengthening of the UK military presence in the zone”
In the next breath,
“there is the need to establish...combined military exercises”
Do these people actually listen to the shite they spew out?
Better to just appear weak, and then when they act, and they will... simply chop their hands off with one stroke.
And yet another nail in the British imperial dreams coffin in the South-Atlantic……
Eventually; the flag-lowering orders will be issued and the Union flag will be, with full honours, shiped back home to England……
As they did in Hong Kong some few years ago….
As they are doing in Norlin Airlann, as we speak…..
No problem as long as they all get their checkbooks out & start paying the Billions each year it costs to support the actions of the security council, Lets see first they are going need to spend Billions on ships, Army's & Planes & then they can start helping in sending their own troops into war zones & watch them come back in boxes by the thousands while preparing their people for the eventual reprisals against their countries that are sure to follow.
The union flag is mainly there because it looks nice, and we left lots of them after the 1982 War of Aggression that you lost.
FYI. HK also had it's own flag back then. The new one looks pretty terrible.
fight for democracy!? hahaha tell that to the Chagossians!!Brits tell their version of history that is usually distorted in their favor.
Looks pretty much like the Union Flag to me......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Rvdktho_g
My money is on the FI remaining British until the Islanders want a change.
You say...:
”Come on Think, give us a date. Let us feel the fibre of your fabric :)”
I say...:
Difficult to give you a precise date....
You never know with those Norlin Airlanners.....;-)
Oh I have missed the nail & coffin analogy. How many nails is that so far Think? How many do you need to finally bury (to continue the theme of the analogy) the rights of the Islands? How many nails do you need to kill the Islanders wishes? If you are so wonderfully insightful (as you love to portray) give us a little more detail to your prophecies. Or is it all bullshit Think? I vote bullshit, but what does an Islanders vote means to an Argentine? Apparently, very little, unless you side with Argentina – funny that…
“58. Reaffirm GA resolution 31/49 which requires both parties in the sovereignty dispute over the Malvinas Islands, South Georgias Islands and South Sandwich Islands and the maritime surrounding areas, to refrain from taking decisions that would imply introducing unilateral modifications in the situation while the islands are going through the process recommended by the General Assembly resolutions. In this context, view with concern the development of illegitimate hydrocarbon exploration activities in the area under dispute, as well as the reinforcement of the military presence by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the area, in violation of UNGA Resolution 31/49”
I see a few issues here.
1. Ban Ki-Moon stated in November 2012 that the UK is not violating UN resolutions over the Falklands.
2. 31/49 makes no mention of South Georgia, the South Sandwich Islands or the surrounding maritime areas, only the Falklands.
3. 31/49 makes no mention of reinforcing the military as being forbidden.
4. 31/49 does state “to refrain from taking decisions that would imply introducing unilateral modifications in the situation while the islands are going through the process recommended by the General Assembly resolutions” - That would include Argentina invading the islands in 1982 then.
5. 31/49 dates from 1976 and due to the illegal actions of Argentina in 1982 is now meaningless.
6. 31/49 is a non binding GA resolution and as such cannot be “violated” which in any case takes us neatly back to point 1.
www.defesanet.com.br/geopolitica/noticia/9324/ZOPACAS----Declaracao-de-Montevideu-
daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/302/32/IMG/NR030232.pdf?OpenElement
en.mercopress.com/2012/11/12/ban-ki-moon-and-colonialism-people-should-be-able-to-decide-their-own-future
I prefer this one:
reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com/2013/01/po...
Catchy little headline too,
SELF-DETERMINATION....The real message!
www.flickr.com/photos/stevebranley/4355216293/
I ask because you seem to rely on them a lot for information yet your comments are lacking in any form of intelligence.
bring them out of retirement we may need them once more?
More Rubbish from la Kretina:-
www.buenosairesherald.com/article/121974/cfk-malvinas-the-perfect-example-of-uns-double-standards
Angola maybe does have colonial ambitions on St. Helena, when CFK was in Angola last year St. Helena was a topic of conversation, as I pointed out then.
SELF-DETERMINATION!
She is desperate for any movement on her Falkland obsession. If you get chance to have a read of the comments of an FI story in Clarin have a look. The average Argentine is sick of hearing about it and it seems, sick of her...
Just had a thought how about if we agreed to talk about sovereignty but sent a member of the FIG to do it?
They are British citizens after all.
@36 Gordo1
Nice link thanks, it just shows how out of touch she is with reality.
“THE ISLANDS BELONG TO ARGENTINA FOREVER! We will get nukes and stuff 100% Argentinian! And we agree with Cristina 100% about everything forever! MALVINAS! I'm safely in Canada! [insert off topic drivel with a bunch of complex sounding words from a Thesaurus here] Cristina's botox face is beautiful and stuff!”
I think that just about covers it.
You forgot to mention the pirates!
Think the Islanders have offered to sit down and talk? she of course contemptuously ignored them, did not even acknowledge their letter. After all they are untermensch! they are irrelevent, they are not people, they do not exist. Which of course is exactly how we want her to treat the Islanders, makes it far easier to tell her to push off.
Nothing has changed and nothing will change; unless the Falkland Islanders want it to.
To quote some famous American thingy person.
“Amen to that Pilgrim!”
This 50 years has also importantly delivered relatively static national boundaries. However, KFC now wants to create a UN that will fit in with her own desires and allow economically small states, and the many despotic ones at that to have some control over the actions of those higher up the food chain. As all the major countries leave en masse, this will lead us back into unilateralism and away from peace. She's just full of lies.
My main question is, if the UN is so terrible in her eyes, why doesn't she leave and create some other body that fits with her need for expansionism?
The more I think about this the more I like it.
CFK's main ammunition is the UN resolutions.
Britain says it wont talk unless the islanders agree.
Send the FIG to do the negotiating = End of problem.
And talk we did...and Argentina invaded.
Then, we talked again..and Argentina stormed out
So, this time we are prepared to talk again, here are my terms:
1) Argentina must completely remove any claim to the Falkland Islands from their constitution
2) Argenina must immediately add to its school curriculum the true history of the islands, and teach their children how successive governments have used propoganda to lie to them
3) Argentina must immediately withdraw from Patagonia, returning the land they usurped in a clear act of brutal 19th century colonialism to the indigenous population. The new state set-up should be fully funded by Argentina. All oil in the Malvinas Basin should belong to the new state.
4) Argentina must settle all overdue international debts including hedge-funds
5) Argentina must compensate the Falkland Islanders $1m per head for all losses incurred due to their bullying.
6) Argentina must immediately hold a general election, where the UN can ensure freedom of the press to accurately portray the options. CFK should not be allowed to stand.
7) CFK should return all monies embezzled from the state and spend the remainder of her days as a $1 a go hooker on the streets of Buenos Aires.
That'll do for now....
Let me think about that one for a moment.
Um.
Um.
Er.
Nah. I don't want it to change. I vote Yes in March.
That's if that embarrassing bloody question doesn't get changed!
Chuckle chuckle.
Ladbrokes has ...
Over (20.5) @ evens
Under (20.5) @ 8/11
I have had a few quid on over ;)
www.oddschecker.com/politics-and-election/falklands-referendum/voters-against-british-sovereignty
I suppose if the result is 99% “yes” the deadbeats on here- some of whom will have most likely voted- will say that clearly not EVERYBODY wants to remain British.
Chuckle chuckle.
that sums it all up nicley, zopacas its really just a joke!!!
I doubt the African countries added anything at all, the final statement was probably pre-written weeks ago by Brazil with their security council ambitions and Argentina with their colonial ambitions.
allow me.
[ Atlantic countries concerned with UK presence ]
Reply
get lost.
Time to bet the family jewels I think!
They don't that betting option but do have along with the one I posted earlier...
Referendum Outcome Yes = 1/500
Cameron to visit Falklands in 2013 = 6/1
Cameron/Kirchner to have official bilateral meeting in 2013 = 25/1
what a load of crap,
why no middle atlantic nations,,
why no north atlantic nations,
after all , water moves does it not,
why are they bovering,
CFK will not listen ,
she will stop at nothing untill she gets it all,
and the beginings of an Argentine empire .
Regarding N.Ireland and the prospect of a United Ireland - the most recent opinion poll put those in favour of a UI at only 7%. When the question was asked “would you support a UI in 20 years?” that still only rose to 30%. Given that the proportion of Catholics and Protestants in NI is already roughly equivalent, that means that the new status quo has broad acceptance in both communities. The Irish Republic which previously claimed sovereignty and jurisdiction in NI dropped that claim and accepts the principle of consent. As a result, relations between the UK & Ireland have never been better.
The M24 website didn't want to say that INDEC were called liars, so it said they said 'silly things'. i guess they're pro front for fail then.
Interesting point as African countries Guinea, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia and Senegal are further north than South American countries Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana.
I love the bit about ending all forms of colonialism in the region - this statement sort of stuffs Buenos Aires,s case!
What more clearer example of good old fashioned imperialistic colonialism can there be of a government- Argentina,s - wanting to impose its sovereign control over a land (the Islands) whose population who live there and have built the Islands up from an unihabited state over 180 odd years - clearly do not want them to do so?
Please dont start the lying CFK crap about population being booted out in 1833 - we all know it did not happen! We also all know that the blood of some of those here in early 1833, still flows in the Islands today - and does not want Argentina here.
Militarization - can you give me any clue as to why Brazil was not mentiuoned? - Nuclear submarines to be built - hitec new warhsips to be built - hitec new aircraft to be bought.
Compare that with the numbers of ships, planes and infantry that UK has in the islands - which has DECREASED considerably in the last 20-25 years!
Peaceful? - so now on there will be no harrassment of cruise liners nor fishing vessesl innocently exercising International right of free passage through an EEZ outside territorial waters?
No more refusals to civil airlines wanting to overfly?
I think the 25/1 odds for a Bilateral UK/Arg meeting are very short - especially as FIG are, by definition, not included. No way will the UK participate without the islanders being a full member of any negotiations.
Designated one of UKTI’s High Growth Markets, Vietnam has many opportunities for UK businesses. With a population of almost 90m, it is the 13th most populous country in the world and an exciting market of increasing affluence. Vietnam joined the WTO in 2007. GDP growth in the 4-year period after accession averaged 6.5%. The UK/Vietnam relationship is strong: trade and investment ties are an important element of the Strategic Partnership Agreement signed in 2010. Bilateral trade increased by over 26% in 2011, with UK exports of goods and services to Vietnam reaching £520m. Registered UK investments exceeded £1.6bn in 2011
There are ( as any American vet will tell you ) 135 species of snake in Vietnam.
131 of them are vemonous......................
Headline.
“SNAKE BITES KFC, SNAKE DIES!”
My estimate is that some pretty radical political developments, in favor of the Argentinean position on the Malvinas issue, will happen during my lifespan......
And please..... dont start the lying FIG(leaf) crap about the Argentinean population not being booted out in 1833 - we all know it did happen!
(64) Redrow
I'm not an expert on Irish affairs nor do I pretend to be one.......
But, going by what one reads in the press lately, your comment seems a bit on the “Rosy” side....
(72) redpoll
You say...:
“Think is just an idle Patagonian whorsewhisperer from Chubut....”
I say...:
A Patagonian whorsewhisperer ???
50% whorewhisperer
&
50% horsewhisperer
Jupppp...... That's sounds just like me ;-)))
The only way Argentinians will get their hands on 'Malvinas Argentina' in your lifetime is if they build it out of papier-mâché.
Get building.
Thank goodness for Think. Surely now, at last, somebody is going to come up with the missing evidence that the Argentinian population was booted out in 1833. I'm particularly interested in understanding why Vernet never mentioned it, despite having launched legal proceedings in both the UK and the US. Tell us do, Think.
Of course, Vernet just forgot. It can easily happen, General Rosas must have forgotten it too when he signed a Treaty of Perfect Friendship a mere 17 years after this monstrous outrage.
Let's ask Think. He knows everything.
Uhhhhhhh........
An Apologist of War and a Guardian of the Moral Values.....
An Anglo member of “Tradición, Familia y Propiedad”, I presume.....?
Never ending crap - has she forgotten Ban ki-moon's comments so quickly ??
AHAHHAHAHAHAHA Ignorant.Vernet was very adamant to use MIlitary force to kick the brits pirates out!.....Ahahah poor deluded ex empire..So stupid..They wanted to hand back MAlvinas, since 1947.....Why all the fuss? The nautral is MALVINAS ARGENTINAS.... poor hopeless Malvinenses..
Oh no - I forget - the one thing Argentines hate on here is Reality?
Ok your life time the flag of ownership will change? - Really - I figured you were around middle age and a bit similar to me!
1856 – May 5th, Luis Vernet writes to Lord Harrowby; “… the wish, to get my Colony under the British Flag, was in accordance with my own interests and those of my colonists, which required such change of flag; because situated as we were on the Highway of Nations, we could not expect permanent prosperity, unless placed under the sovereignty of a Government capable of protecting us against filibustering or other aggressions. As to the grants of Land, wild cattle, and privileges, these were originally obtained not with the view to establish any claim to the Islands on the part of Buenos Ayres, but merely to secure the best protection I could for my new colony, from the Authorities for the time being, regardless who they might be.”
falklandstimeline.wordpress.com/
”I say...:
A Patagonian whorsewhisperer ???
50% whorewhisperer
&
50% horsewhisperer
Jupppp...... That's sounds just like me ;-)))“
Think, I'm sure he meant ”whore- worshipper”
Jupppp..... That's sounds just like you :-)))))
The thing is, it were me, and I were in court trying to get recompense for such outrageous treatment, I'd have been screaming it from the rooftops. But maybe that's just me.
And isn't it funny that some months after the expulsion National Hero The Murderer Rivero was still around to set off on a murder spree? How come murderers and murder victims were allowed to stay? And how come there is no contemporaneous account on the expulsion anywhere? No list of names?
But it's a good point that the UK once wanted to give up the islands. But Poor Argentina boasts a political class os such staggering ineptitude that they've made it forever impossible for anybody eve to give you want most.
AHAHAHAHA etc etc etc
With regards to your other comment, she's basically calling Banksy Moon a liar. Which surely is contemptible in some way, having a wayward member of the UN call the head of the UN a liar. Wonder what Banksy Moon has to say about this?
Thirty-eight (38) men......, thirteen (13) women and eight (8) children were forced by the British to leave......
Those 57 souls represented the 75% of the Argentinean population on them Islands in 1833.
As you say......., all well documented in our National Archives.....
What an amazing discovery. Have you a link for us?
Of course, if BA had listened to the warning in 1829, the trespassing garrison wouldn't have been there.
Middle aged ??
How does this 75% explain your country's propaganda about 'everyone' being told to leave and an implanted population being brought from the UK to replace them?
Even your own crafted nonsense is nonsense.
You know perfectly that my numbers are correct.....
Of those 25% kept in them Islands by British false promises or sheer force I could mention El Gaucho Rivero and his comrades......that soon realized what big liars those Englishmen where and took decisive action against them.....................
Or Vernet's couple of Slave Negresses forced to stay and “serve” their new masters.....
Their DNA surely runs on the couple of half-blood Kelper families that still squatter on them Islands.....
PS:
Jupppppp.... Very kind indeed of Islander1 to call me Middle-Aged :-)))
... so after 180 years (2013-1833 = 180) with a fairly typical population growth rate of 1.6% (0.016) where the world growth rate has currently dropped to 1.2%, we end up with a figure of ..... 2977 people. That's pretty much the current population of the islands, as it stands today.
So where are these supposedly 'implanted people' that you argentines put so much emphasis on, and why didn't they breed?
You Argies are crap at basic maths, and even your nonsense makes no sense.
Yoo seem a bit vague about all the settlers though? Shall I list them for you?
Age well I hover around the 3 score bit - I figured you might be 10 yrs approx below.
The only possible change in flag and ownership likley to happen here in say the next half century would be that the Falklands Flag at Govt house is replaced by a Union Jack when it becomes the residence of the Governor General - in the Independent British Commonwealth Nation of the Falkland Islands. A pipe dream at the moment I agree - but it will happen one day for sure- but probably not in my lifetime perhaps- we need an extra 0 on the end of the population total at least!
Now squatters - really - how can the descendents of people who prior to Jan 1833 were here under the River Plate authority (or whatever Arg was then) be squatters?
Do please explain the difference between them - and say anyone of European descent who lived in what is now Arg - prior to 1810?
Oh goodness, another mystery - why didn't Vernet claim compensation for his scadalously usurped slave negresses in any of his court actions in the UK and the US? He claimed for horses and outbuildings and all kinds of other property.
Your numbers are only those of the illegal garrison - and indeed include the prisoners who were subsequently executed. Brave Argentinians all - I'm sure :-)
Interestingly Onslow - male chauvanist that he was, didn't include the ladies in his count. But then, you were never very good with history were you old 'un :-)
www.scribd.com/doc/106213592/Falklands-Wars-The-Expulsion-Myth
falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/falklands-history13.pdf
Big update in a few days - I've been working my way through those files released last month. All interest (yes - I must get a life :-)
Regarding N.Ireland and the prospect of a United Ireland, there is no longer a divided Ireland. :)
4 of the 6 counties are strongly consistently voting in Pro-U.I / Pro-Irish parties.
The mayor of the capital is from the U.I party (Sinn Fein).
The second minister as above.
Christmas season - lights in the Irish language on the city hall.
Christmas season - Absence of the Union flag on the city hall.
Before - nationalists rioting and getting water-cannoned.
Now - unionists rioting and getting water-cannoned.
Euro broadly accepted as currency, no discernible border, no border checks. So walk on in when you like and spend some euro, just like the rest of the island.
'British only' as personal identity - 40%.
Second city 'Derry' - 52% identifying as 'Irish only'.
25% now availing of introduced right to Irish passport.
Catholicism approaching parity with Protestantism (Original Protestant state concept = now dead)
A re-named police service (dropped the word 'royal').
Heck of a change from the 80's ...or even the 90's for that matter.
I foresee a Scottish independence style devolution-max being put in place soon, preceded by a cross-community agreed national flag (less than 3 years for flag).
At which time all thats left is some kind of semi-statelet jurisdiction entity thing being financed from London.
Which will be contentious given that consistent G.B polls over decades show that G.B wants rid of N.I. and sees it as a burden.
But Ireland will let G.B pay for it for a while (given it takes more from London than it pays in) , build it up nicely, get it ready for hand-over.
Another victory for Argentina.
“Another victory for Argentina.”
Huh? What ? Explain, please.
Hows the snow in your part of the UK.
Argentina and Victory in the same sentence. Wow, now that's what I call an Oxymoron.
You do know, your supposed lull your opponents and not yourselfs into a sense of false confidence, don't you?
Roll on referendum.
Maybe the British are just too strong for these southern softies?
www.defesanet.com.br/geopolitica/noticia/9324/ZOPACAS----Declaracao-de-Montevideu-
Interesting that Argentina has taken over Uruguay..
“119. Express gratitude and appreciation to the Government and the People of Express gratitude to Brazil, Nigeria, South Africa and the Argentine Uruguay for their warm hospitality....”
www.lanacion.com.ar/1546554-el-drama-de-los-qom-morir-por-el-odio-y-la-discriminacion
A rather partisan analysis there to put it mildly. Only 10 years ago Gerry Adams predicted a UI by 2016. How's that looking? While dissident Loyalist and Republican bullies can still make headlines, the people have moved on. Euros are commonly accepted at ports and airports in the UK, N.Ireland with the only land border in the UK accepts them more. Most mayoral positions now rotate in NI so yes there can be Nationalist mayors in Unionist-majority towns and vice versa. That NI looks and feels more neutral is a good thing. Bowler hats and painted kerbstones never made NI look British - their demise is good for both sides. Despite Catholics nearly equalling Protestants, only 7% of the population want a UI now (30% if in 20 years). But then that's self-determination for you.
your maths is as bad as your misrepresentation of so called “facts”
38 + 13 + 8 = 59 not 57
@99
(97) Mr. Lorton - You know perfectly that my numbers are correct.....
There have been calls to expand the permanent seats on the Security Council to better reflect the power dynamic of the modern world. This would likely involve the addition of a country like India or maybe Germany to the list (how the world has moved on since 1945 eh?).
These are still countries with the resources and influence to contribute extensively to UN deployments around the world.
The idea that backwards 3rd world banana republics like Argentina and Angola should be given permanent seats is pretty laughable, however.
And when this report talks about reforming global financial institutions it's pretty transparent that what they want is to make it easier for thieves and derelicts like Argentina to borrow money from everyone else under false pretenses with the intention of never giving it back. Sorry but the answer is no.
Next
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northern_Ireland_election_seats_1997-2005-by.svg
See them there green bits, thats where people won't stand for god save the queen. Where a united Ireland prevails in culture and politics.
Them there places tend to get their postboxes painted green overnight.
GB pays for the upkeep, development and social welfare of these places.
Awfully nice of the English tax-payer.
So, lets just say UK gov are using their taxes to pay for it and call it quits.
End of.
Even your (it wasn't us-it was the)junta realised that Rivero was a common murderer yet you laud him as a hero?????
Think, you are even more stupid than l thought.
Or are you lying yet again?
And l back lslander1.
Give us the names of the supposed Argentines who were supposedly evicted.
You made the accusation, now put up or shut up.
And stop lying, it does you no credit.
Have you not found out yet that in today,s 21st century world it is PEOPLE who count - not who did, or did not, do what to who a few centuries ago!
“41. Recall the 2005 UN Summit Outcome Document and the responsibility of each Member State to protect its population from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity”
So, we have to protect 'our' BOT populations from these 4 things, which is basically a set of traits we would associated with the Argentines. I love the way that they're calling Ban Ki Moon a liar, again.
All these 'developing' nations seem to do is call Ban Ki Moon a liar, without actually having read UNGA Resolution 31/49. Poor Ban Ki Moon.
and a political map of England looks almost entirely blue, yet Cameron needs a coalition to rule - because constituency boundaries relate to voter numbers not area. In your various posts you quote evidence that a UI is imminent. But under the Good Friday Agreement you could have one tomorrow provided there is a likely prospect of it passing a referendum. It's not British imperialism preventing a UI, it's the lack of desire for one in NI (between 7 and 30%). Your post box might well be green, but the picture on the stamps going into it is unlikely to change for the forseeable future. Regarding finances, while the UK subvention for NI is particularly high, the level per person is almost identical to that for Wales (which did not suffer 30 years of terrorism) - that's just how countries work. How does it work in Argentina? Does every region pay its way or are some poor and others rich?
they should worry about their own mess before condeming others..
Definition of vestige
1. A visible trace, evidence, or sign of something that once existed but exists or appears no more.
2. Biology A rudimentary or degenerate, usually nonfunctioning, structure that is the remnant of an organ or part that was fully developed or functioning in a preceding generation or an earlier stage of development.
I think that sums it up nicely.
i50.tinypic.com/qn4cxu.jpg
@24 But arsies always lie! There aren't, and never have been, any “Chagossians”. What there was was slaves imported by the French. And, latterly, Mauritian contract workers. Neither of who ever owned so much as a grain of sand. But arsies like to lie. It's the only thing they do well. They think!
@79 Wow! Now you are even lying to yourself. It is true that there seems to be a tiny percentage of teenage Falkland Islanders who would like to experience arsie “big city” life. We can deal with that. Neutron bombs. Loads of arsie cities, but no arsies. Ideal! Thought you didn't want any responses, liar. So why post? I think whorewhisperer is right. CFK IS a whore. And who suppressed the evidence on how she murdered her husband? Was it YOU?
@87 Nope. A capable, vengeful nation. YOU killed 255 British servicemen and 3 Falkland Islanders. YOU have yet to PAY for that. I reckon ONE British serviceman or ONE Falkland Islander is worth 100,000 arsies. I make that nearly 26 million arsies. And then, from the remainder, we'll pick those that we consider to be war criminals and execute them.
@89 Typical unintelligible garbage from an arsie psycho. Have you tried medication? Strychnine is quite good. Don't swallow more than a kilo.
@95 Even if that were true, which it isn't, so what? Where did you find this list? In the “cattle” section? Or did arsieland make a habit of naming and listing rats and other vermin?
@99 Would that be Gaucho Rivero the murderer? Says a lot about arsieland that it reveres a homicidal maniac.
@106 And Britain says that anyone who tries to impose their wishes on the Falkland Islands will die. Comment?
@118 So? The UK is letting Ireland play at being a country. Not doing too well are they? Greedy and stupid. As we have always known the Irish to be. Difficult to distinguish them from arsies. Pig shit is world-beating by comparison!
hi sussie
This article and this thread, have nothing to do with Ireland.
Pure diversion.
Back on topic please.
You say:
”Think- Glad we agree that the River Plate militia and their families were indeed ordered to leave.”
May I ask:
If we ”agree” about the fact that 75% of the Argentinean population (thirty-eight (38) men, thirteen (13) women and eight (8) children) were ”indeed ordered to leave” by the British in 1833, under threats of being bombed to oblivion …….
Why do you write at (67)…:”Please dont start the lying CFK crap about population being booted out in 1833 - we all know it did not happen”?
You ask further…:
”Now squatters - really - how can the descendents of people who prior to Jan 1833 were here under the River Plate authority (or whatever Arg was then) be squatters?
Do please explain the difference between them - and say anyone of European descent who lived in what is now Arg - prior to 1810?”
I say …:
I have explained this point to you and others previously on these pages….
The great difference is ***ALLEGIANCE***.
All of South-America’s immigrant descendants show full allegiance to their respective South-American National States…..
You British Squatters in Malvinas, on the other hand, show full allegiance to the UK, an Alien Northern Hemisphere Nuclear Armed Bully with crystal clear geo-political territorial ambitions in the South-Atlantic and the Antarctic ......
(118) Vestige
Nice to hear somebody contesting the ” English Turnips” in here…..
Be it about Ireland or the Islas Malvinas……
(120) lsolde
1) I don’t know if El Gaucho Rivero was a hero or not…..
What I know is that he was lied to, cheated, and deprived of his freedom by the British …
And that he reacted as any Gaucho would have reacted in 1833…. By pulling his knife and defending himself…
2) You want the names of the Argentines who were evicted, you say ?
Again ???
That list has been posted innumerable times in here by me (and others)….
Try to keep up, honey…
We have turnips enough in here......; the last thing we need is a tiny blue-eyed simple flaxen…;-)
Then whilst still acting in self defence, he raped his attackers wife in front of her children.”
That should help people decide whether he's a hero or not!
So, my dear Think, l offer a direct challenge to your lordship, the Turnip-in-Chief.
1) Post the list of “Argentines” evicted or
2) Shut up about it after apologising to everyone for lying & wasting their time.
All those injustices, that happened to Rivero were done in the name of Vernet as you well know.
The Gauchos prefered to work for the British as they would be treated fairly & paid in silver.
Back to school for you sr Think, to learn the correct history, not that rubbish you learned in Argentina.
.... sounds like a herd of llamas.
.........................................
*South* Atlantic.
The llamas from the *Northern hemisphere are:
Benin, Cape Verde, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, , Nigeria, Senegal, Togo, Guinea-Bissau, Saint Tomé and Principe and Sierra Leone.
The absent llamas are the island-states of the South Atlantic:
TFI, TdeC, Ascension, St. H, etc.
Island states are not welcome in their own ocean, it seems;
and the herd is packed with Northern coastliners.
Self-defence, gaucho style
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thomas_Helsby%27s_Account_of_the_Port_Louis_Murders
Malvinistas are to language, as electrodes are to democracy.
Roger
1806
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4779479.stm
On 27 June 1806 a British force of 1,500 men under William Carr Beresford occupied the city, for about six weeks until surrendering in mid-August to colonial militia, led by Santiago de Liniers y Bremond, * a French nobleman at the service of Spain.”*
Sounds like a Spanish victory to me!
Allegiance - calm down old chap- the recent survey here showed that a lot of us Islanders have our first Allegiance to - The Falkland Islands - just the same as you no doubt have to Argentina.
We can overlook the minor issue that your ancestors murdered most of the original inhabitants for now!
However a simple fact - when you are only a 3000 populations and under continual threat of a full takeover by a country of 40million plus who have made it clear that our wishes are irrelevant and that they would use military force to takeover if there was no defence against them - well surely even Think would want to align also with a friendly nation who offers protection from the baddy!
Lets face reality - one day when we have the population and economic base - we will ask UK for Independence - UK will grant it.
If we became an Arg Colony and one day asked for Independence - what would Buenos Aires say?
Marcos- do please read some history- 1806 was an attack against SPANISH territory and Britain and Spain were at war - had 0% to do with the Islands - and Argentina did not exist anyway!
Got anything from the last century? Or is it just the one before that?
You didn't say “Please”......
(133) GeoffWard2
You say….:
“Island States are not welcome in their own ocean”
I say....:
There are no “Island States” in the South Atlantic....
(137) Islander1
You say…:
”What IS more relevant though is the number of civilian settlers who stayed on- voluntarily- and thus accepted British rule. Your memory seems to be a bit vague on this one!”
I say…:
Please…. refresh my memory and mention the names of the people that stayed on them Islands….
Please…. remember to substract Mr.Antonio Rivero, Mr. Jose Maria Luna, Mr.Juan Brasido, Mr. Manuel Gonzales, Mr. Luciano Flores, Mr. Manuel Godoy, Mr. Felipe Salagar & Mr. Lattorre…; the Indios and Gauchos coerced to stay in them Islands that soon rebelled against the cheating, lying, pirating Brits.
Please….. remember to substract the two slave negresses too…. They didn’t get a chanche to choose, did they?
How many have we so?....
What were their names?...
Does this help?
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thomas_Helsby%27s_Account_of_the_Port_Louis_Murders/Residents_of_Port_Louis_as_of_26_August_1833
Now, it shouldn't be too hard, given this list, the logs of the Clio and Sarandi, and the records of Vernet's contracts supposedly held in the Argentine National Archives, to come up with a list of names of those expelled who weren't members of the intruding “garrison”.
Funny this hasn't been done already, but I guess it's a redundant effort if you're only targeting the credulous.
I will say this about them though. LATAMs do upstage the Eurogals. (But the lady from Argentina looks rather like she should be pestering Sleeping Beauty).
Warning, links contain Miss Universe (sorry not Miss World) costumes and catty commentary the latter of which has swear words.
www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/12/miss-universe-national-costume-2012-part-1.html
www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/12/miss-universe-national-costume-2012-part-2.html
www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/12/miss-universe-national-costume-2012-part-3.html
”A second, better-resourced invasion followed in May 1807, under Lieutenant-General John Whitelock, attacking Buenos Aires in July. After a couple of days of intense street fighting, the British surrendered to an army it had considered no more than a rabble.
After losing more than half his force, the British signed a ceasefire on 7 July and left for home, where Whitelock was court-martialled and discharged.
(Read this part carefully)
“War often defines nationhood: just as America was said to have come of age in 1776, when British colonists declared their independence from the Crown, so Argentina felt it had come of age as a separate state, having fought for themselves against the British”
British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)
I recall talking about it with a senior Arg Naval officer in the Islands late 1970s(when we were all reasonable friendly) He reckoned biggest silly mistake ever made was beating off the Brits then! Had UK won and stayed then Arg would have been a colony like Australia and by now long since Independent, English speaking,with a stable democratic system and stable economy etc etc - and a very very rich nation - and with us as part of it! He was right!
Think - there were 22 who accepted the offer of staying in the Islands - none were co-erced. 5 others left for a few months on business or family affairs and returned a few months later, so you could say 27.
Of the 22
more than 50% were Argentines;
12 Argentines
4 Charrua Indians from Uruguay
2 Brits
2 Germans
1 French
1 Jamaica
4 left of their own free will:
Joaquin Acuna and Juana,
Mateo Gonzalez and Maria
both were gaucho families who worked for Vernet.
2 others left also but they had only just arrived on the Sarandi anyway so were actually listed as “foreigners or non residents” A Jose Viel and Juan Qualy
Will give you the names and what happened to them as far as is known tomorrow.
“English speaking,with a stable democratic system and stable economy etc etc - and a very very rich nation - and with us as part of it! ”
Do you mean broke like Britain?
You said “ and with us as part of it!”
So you are saying that we are not together because the British failed to invade Buenos Aires and succeeded to invade Malvinas in 1833?
I am sure this news from 1807 will come as a great shock to all those who believed that Britain never once lost a single battle anywhere.
... and just like in 1982 the Falkland Islanders fought against the Argentines and their colonial pretensions of land theft. That was pretty much the defining stroke in the defining of the nation of the Falklands, and an end to any negotiations.
1833 wasn't an invasion, it was an eviction. Get over it.
OK, Think, l'll play your game & it doesn't hurt at all.
Please provide us lesser mortals with the list of the Argentines who you say were expelled from the Falkland lslands, by the British in 1833.
Please, please me by providing this list, please.
Now don't try to wriggle out of this one, Think & don't ignore me.
Your credibility is now on the line, dear Think.
So please provide the above mentioned list.
l await your revelations with bated breath.
Merci
No rich and prosperous like Australia. But you have missed any possible chance of that.
@ Think (rarely able to actually do it though)
I'm surprised you aren't claiming that the troops in 1982 weren't also ethnically cleaned and usurped from their land.
On 6th October 1832 a 26 man Argentinean garrison arrived aboard the Sarandí. They bought with them their 11 wives and 8 children). They left on 4th January 1833.
That's exactly 90 days.
In 1982 Argentina's 'garrison' only lasted 72 days.
Twice you have tried and twice you have failed. You can't ethnically cleanse an armed force.
They did get over the 1833 eviction. From 1850 to 1941 it was never mentioned again in the Presidential Address, this is why their claims to sovereignty is complete hogwash.
1806-07 - yes an attack and attempt at invasion
1833 - eviction of squatters - civilians invited to stay and most did
1982 2nd April Invasion by Argentina
1982 - 14th June - eviction by UK of those invading squatters.
Understand the difference
Get over it mugs
Where do the Welsh settlements in Patagonia figure in all this? Should Patagonia be a Welsh colony?
My British squatter did you forget your failure of 1845?
Britain must very a very ugly place to live if you consider they invaded my country so many times, and failed most of the time.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vuelta_de_Obligado
Still not reading your links porperly again I see.
Therefore the *Anglo-French victory* did not achieve their economic objectives. It proved to be practically impossible to sail Argentine rivers without the authorisation of Argentinian authorities.
Anglo French Victory I believe it says!
Interesting reading, this must be where your navy learned the tactical benefit of running away from the RN and there was me thing the Falklands. was the first time they buggered off, when facing a real navy.
“Britain would return the stolen ships, the Martín García island, remove their troops from Uruguay, accept the Argentine sovereignty over its internal waters, and condition the whole treaty to the approval of Oribe. Finally, the British navy would make a 21-gun salute to the flag of Argentina.”
Sounds like another British failure to me.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-French_blockade_of_the_R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata
“France and the United Kingdom eventually lifted the blockade and dropped their attempts to bypass Buenos Aires' policies. They acknowledged the Argentine government's legal right over the Paraná and other internal rivers, and its authority to determine who had access to it, in exchange for the withdrawal of Rosas's army from Uruguay.”
Seems you also withdrew from Uruguay, hardly a victory, or did that part of the history conveniently slip by you?
”Luis Alberto Romero considers that the importance of the battle is overrated because it was a defeat: the Anglo-French navy destroyed the artilleries and proceed to the north, as they wanted to do. The end of the blockade in favourable terms to the Confederation was more the result of a change of policy by the Foreign Office after the appointment of Lord Palmerston than a success of Rosas' diplomacy.
Amazes me, nothing changed in 160 years. What they can not win militarily they think they can gain by politicing.
Well it aint goung to work this time.
CFK is in big trouble, and using the innocent people of the Falklands as hostages to argentine economic incompetence,
They never learn..
.
I agree with your numbers concerning how many left the islands in January 1833. 59 people.
Of those 59 people, How many had arrived in the islands for the first time in November 1832? Is that in your National Records?
My information tells me it was 55.
More did arrive in November 1832 but “went missing”. What happened to Esteban Mestevier and his wife?
So your “population” was actually on the islands for 3 months. None of them indigenous, none of them ethnic islanders
Today's islanders have been there 180 years, most born there, many going back multiple generations.
Hmmm....3 months military garrison versus 180 years peaceful settlement.
Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound.
1845 - who was that against/?Britain has fought many many battles over the centuries - lost a few of them as well - but (other than USA in 1770s) she always has won the most important battle - the LAST one of a war or conflict!
Today Britain lives in the 21st Century, along with the rest of the civilized world - where people and their rights count - sadly Argentina still lives in the 19th century era of Colonial expansion.
In that Think happily states that 59 people left in January 1833 and this is in the Malvinista “official records”, then it is great news.
We know that the majority of these arrived just three months earlier, in the contested “penal colony” or “military garrison” under Mestevier.
Surely, not even the most rabid nonsense speaker would claim this was a “population”, let alone an “argentine population” or an “indigenous population” or a “civilian population”...it might be better called an invasionary force or a blatant act of 19th century colonialism.
So...how many arrived with Mestevier? How many we're murdered during the mutiny? How many left with Pinedo?
The number you are left with is how many of Vernets group left (four??)
Of course you can then get into the debate whether the four years Vernets group were there constitutes a population, and indeed whether they were Argentine (they weren't!!).
But Think has inadvertently destroyed all the Malvinista arguments with his “national archive” post.
Pity he didn't Think...chuckle chuckle.
I know that this is currently happening, but without the youth getting involved it's just going to be more soft leather chairs, pipes, and waiting for mother England to come sailing over the oceans rather than .... basically Australia 1.1.
By 2019 the islands will be “very rich” and perfectly able to stand on their own two feet and pay for their own defence...Not reliant on anyone.
You say…:
”Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound.”
I say…:
Not more ridiculous than you telling me that…: ”Most of the Islanders are born in them Islands”….. when their very own census tells us that there are less than 40% Island born Kelpers in them Islands….
Furthermore…….., half of those 40% are first generation….
Not more ridiculous than you Brits, pretending that the UK has any right whatsoever over any Antarctic territory, South Atlantic Islands or South Atlantic waters adjacent to Argentina….
If you Brits need or want a piece of Antarctica or some Southern Islands…..… then take them back from your Convict Ex-Colonies of Australia or New Zealand, where you have crystal-clear historical, legal and genetic rights….. and leave us South-Americans in peace.
You have no business down here……, non whatsoever.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound, all riddled with expansionism and greed?
The Atlantic belongs to the Atlantic nations, not the South Americans. Get back to your wars and leave the Atlantic alone, nazi scum.
Oh yes, your colonial governor Nigel Haywood is a perfect example of that lol.
Leave South America in peace. Do not make me laugh! What the hell happened in 1982?
If you did not have the convenient Falkland Islands and the British to vent your exspansionist tendancies at, you would be turning your attention elsewhere, towards your neighbours.
They know that and despite what they say to your face, they are loving every single minute of it. Laughing at you behind your back and thanking god for Islands and their British connections.
They know. you do not worry us and they know we are more than capable, as comprehensibly demonstrated, of dealing with the likes of you. While your distracted with us, you are leaving them alone.
Here's some more news for you. You are called Argentina, not South America but to hear you talk, you think you are the entire continent.
Leave you in peace! why don't you take your own advice and leave the Islanders in peace.
Mathew Brisbane (Vernet,s superintendent) went to Islands in 1828- mudered 26 Aug 1833-buried at port Louis.
William Dickson - Vernet,s storekeeper - murdered 26th August 1833 buried Port Louis.
Charles Kussler - still there 1837 unknown after.
Antonio Vehingar/Wagner- employee of vernet- murdered 26th August buried Port Louis
Jean/Juan Simon Capitaz- employed by vernet, fathered a child with Carmelite-murdered 26th August 1833, buried Port Louis.
Antonio Rivero - murderer
Jose Maria Luna - murderer
Juan Brasido - murderer
Manuel Gonzalez - murderer
Lusiano Flores - murderer
Manuel Godoy - murderer
Felipe Salagar - murderer
Lattorre - murderer
Antonia Roxa - arrived cerca 1830 became naturalised British subject 1841,died 1865 buried grave no B238 Stanley cemetery
Gregoria Madrid - shows in our 1846 census as an Arg citizen, died 1871 buried Stanley cemetery grave no A169
Carmelita- arrived 1826 with vernet,had a son 1831 with Juan Simon another with Matthew Coronel in 1833 and a 3rd with Richard penny 1837.Died 1845 buried at Port Louis.
Jose Simon- son of Carmelita last mentioned 1858
Manuel Coronel - son of carmelita, last mentioned 1851.
Jose Manuel Prado
Honest John - (a man of colour? - presumably from africa?)
Antonio Manuel - a man of colour as above I guess?
Santiago Lopez - gaucho
Faustin Martinez - gaucho
Pascual Diego - gaucho
Manuel Coronel - had a child with Carmelita buried Port Louis 1841.
Those who were not recorded in the censuses of the 1840s are assumed to have left prior to the census - but they were there in 1833!
Sort of buggers your President and Foreign Ministers shouts that all were evicted in Jan 1833 - when any tourist can come today and see the named graves of some of them!!!!
This list above is as accurate as possible - the definative list of who was here and stayed is held by the central records office in London.
You could provide original signed documents with photographic evidence and they would not care a toss. They only believe what they are told to believe, I was going to say, want they want to believe. That would be silly though, they are incapable of individual or rational thought.
''Furthermore…….., half of those 40% are first generation….''
Is there a point to that statement?
Are you really saying you might not be a real Falkland Islander even if you were born here to parents with Falkland Island Status?
What does that make you then?
And this from the nation that shipped a woman to Antarctica specifically to give birth to a native Argentine 'Antarctican.
Wasn't it you whining on a while back about our restrictive immigration policy? About how we won't let anyone settle in the Falkland Islands? Oh, apart from the 60% of Falkland Islands residents who were born somewhere else.
Can I just ask you if that figure refers to status holders or everyone who was in the islands on census night?
Thank you at long last for putting the real Argentine case instead of all the comic knockabout concerning Popes, inheritances never left to you, expulsions that never happened, treaties that do say what they don't say and don't say what they do say, migrating birds, and the rest of the Malvinista canon.
Now we know that anglophobia confers sovereignity, I'm only surprised you didn't tell us sooner.
l haven't gone away, Cher Think & you are not off the hook.
Please provide your list of Argentines, who you say were evicted from these(not them)Falkland lslands, by the British, in 1833.
You said that you could & its the main plank of your argument, SO, what are you waiting for?
You can do this, can't you, Cher Think?
You're not bluffing or........dare l say it! Lying are you dear Thinkus?
List, please!
Thanking you in anticipation, from Me.
************************************************************
The South Atlantic does not belong to Argentina & we will sail here if we want to.
We have plenty of business here & its got absolutely nothing to do with Argentina or anyone else.
We were navigating these waters when your country just consisted of land around BsAs. Just who do you think you are?
And FYI, New Zealand was never a penal colony.
You really need to brush up on your history, Cher Think.
Hate to rain on your parade but, Argentine history books are very unreliable.
Oh & before l forget, l'm waiting for that list, please. Peace♥
What choice did the ethnic South Americans have to be “left in peace” when Thinks ancestors slaughtered them, as recently as a clear case of 19th century colonialism in Patagonia? Was that genocide over hundreds of years leaving South Americans in peace Think?
Or perhaps the 1982 invasion of the Falklands, was that leaving South America in peace Think?
I notice you didn't respond to my question of how many of your 59 souls who left in January 1833, had only arrived in November 1832 for the first time? What does your National Archive say Think? (its interesting as Malvinero1 would have us believe there were “thousands” of Argentines evicted”)
It really winds you up doesn't it Think?
How can a couple of thousand Islanders continue to humiliate the great Argentina? how can they keep you from your expansionist ideals? How can the UN allow this? How can they have 300-500 million barrels of oil already? how can they be richer than you, more dignified than you, have a prouder heritage than you?
How can a couple of thousand people do this Think??? Chuckle chuckle.
You say:
”This list above is as accurate as possible”
I say:
Yes, I ”Think” it is.
A far cry from your original comment at (67) though:
”Please don’t start the lying CFK crap about population being booted out in 1833 - we all know it did not happen.”
Sooo; we seem to agree upon:
1) Fifty-nine (59) souls where deported by British military might from them Islands.
2) Twenty-six (26) souls “chose” to stay on them Islands.
However; from your list of 26 persons that “chose” to stay I would, for obvious reasons, subtract:
a) The five (5) European citizens, designated by the British as the new leadership of the Colony:
Irish William Dickson, Scot Mathew Brisbane, French Jean Simon, German Charles Russler & Anthony Wagner.
b) The eight (8) Gauchos & Indians kept on them Islands by false British promises that soon rebelled…:
Antonio Rivero, Jose Maria Luna, Juan Brasido, Manuel Gonzalez, Lusiano Flores, Manuel Godoy, Felipe Salagar & M. Latorre.
c) The two (2) enslaved negresses mentioned in Darwin’s Diary; Gregoria Madrid & Carmelita + her two (2) baby sons, Jose Simon & Manuel Coronel.
d) The two “Black Men”, Honest John & Victor Manuel, both escapee slaves from American ships.
That leaves us with just seven (7) Argentineans that stayed voluntarily under British occupation.
Less than 10% of the original settlement.
(173) Monty96
You ask:
''Furthermore.., half of those 40% are first generation... Is there a point to that statement?”
I say:
The point was to rebut poster (161) Monkeymagic false argument when he proclaims that…:
”Today's islanders have been there 180 years, MOST BORN THERE”
(175) lsolde
You say:
“Please provide your list of Argentines, who you say were evicted from them lslands, by the British in 1833.”
I say:
I’m not a ”Information Office” for dumb blondes.
Try to keep up girl; everybody else in them Islands (Islander1, Monty96 etc.) does.
(Clue: The ”lizt” ain’t on your 1990’s Macquarie Highschool Dictionary, dhaling :-)
But it does BLOW OUT OF THE WATER THE OUTRIGHT LIE peddled for years by your Govt that all Argentines were booted out!
The only ones booted out were those who had been there for about 90 days maximum!
Then in 1982 you started the War of Aggression, and lost the war, and any claim to the islands under international law.
Lost on two points there. Well done you.
Besides the twenty-two members of the garrison and their families. This included seven murderers. There where four civilians that left, two that might have been Argentinean.
”The five (5) European citizens, designated by the British as the new leadership of the Colony:
Irish William Dickson, Scot Mathew Brisbane, French Jean Simon, German Charles Russler & Anthony Wagner“
Why should they be excluded ?
”The two (2) enslaved negresses mentioned in Darwin’s Diary; Gregoria Madrid & Carmelita + her two (2) baby sons, Jose Simon & Manuel Coronel.“
What proof do you have that they were enslaved by the British? and why should the be excluded?
”The two “Black Men”, Honest John & Victor Manuel, both escapee slaves from American ships.”
Why should they be excluded - just because they ere black ?
then if we, for the minute, accept Think's discussions on who was actually argentine, being 7 people that left.
So 2 out of 9 were evicted (22%).... leaving 78% of the Argentine settlers remaining.
Think has basically agreed with us that KFC, and her friends at the Front for Fail are liars. Well done Think.
You say...:
“But it does BLOW OUT OF THE WATER THE OUTRIGHT LIE peddled for years by your Govt. that all Argentines were booted out!”
I say....:
What it does BLOW OUT OF THE WATER IS THE OUTRIGHT LIE peddled since recently by your FIG(leaf) that no Argentineans were booted out in 1833....
A DEMONSTRABLE OUTRIGHT LIE repeated by you at your above comment No.:67....
Besides......Would you be so kind to guide me to any document, link or reference where the Argentinean Government says that “ALL” Argentineans were booted out by the Brits in 1833?
Just one?
One?
Ms Fernandez says her letter is published on the same date - 3 January - when, 180 years ago: ”Argentina was forcibly stripped of the Malvinas Islands, which are situated 14,000 km (8,700 miles) away from London“.
She goes on: ”The Argentines on the Islands were expelled by the Royal Navy”
image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2013/01/02/A025BE01F03.pdf
Still up to your old tricks
!! What it does BLOW OUT OF THE WATER IS THE OUTRIGHT LIE peddled since recently by your FIG(leaf) that no Argentineans were booted out in 1833.... !!
You know very well that the the phrase actually used was “No Argentinian settlers were were asked to leave the Islands”
The only Argentinians expelled were those of the military garrison.
But what the heck, that would not fit in with your story
1833 ' The Brithish commander raise the Union Jack, claimed possession of the islands and expelled the Argentinians.
”The Falklands officially became a Crown colony in 1840, a governor and a few Scotsmen arrived to establish a British pastoral settlement. Argentina hotly disputed the Brithish takeover, and Buenos Aires made continual diplomatic representations over the next 150 years to recover the islands”
We and UK have ALWAYS stated that the civilian population was given free choice - leave of your free choice or you are wlecome to stay under British rule. I think that fact is even noted on the Arg Historical records of the time.
If you can dispute this - please give some public evidence?
Oh and by the way you mentioned slaves - not sure what the Arg position was but those folks were free citizens in the Islands as Uk had outlawed slavery several decades before 1833.
As for exact no of Argentines - our records go by their freely expressed nationality at the time of asking.
For Islolde _ will name those who left tomorrow.
How interesting. So by your own reasoning, less than a third of the Vernet settlement in 1833 can be considered Argentines.
How does this support your sovereignity claim, exactly?
Thinks argument is that the militia that arrived in November 1832 constituted a population by January 1833.
His view is that if you spend 3 months somewhere than you become part of the population, irrespective of anyone else's prior claim or title.
However, if you and your ancestors spend 180 years somewhere, then you don't get to become part of a population, irrespective of anybody else claim or title.
Coming back to your original point....
Of the 59 (thinks numbers from his National Archive) who were “forcibly evicted”, how many arrived just 2-3months earlier for the first time as part of a militia? How many were part of the 4 year civilian settlement.
I “think” it's 55 to the 3-month brigade and 4 to the civilians. That being the case, and the other 22 remaining (including some British according to Think) suggests the “four” weren't forced to do anything.
Excellent debate. Think should swap sides..he's destroyed the Malvinista argument in one swoop....chuckle chuckle
So, after spending time explaining his analysis he's just verified and agreed with the British historical position. Well done us!
In the XIX Century, all the fringe territories of the Americas, north as south were being settled on similar manner….
Small military outposts where the soldiers and their families doubled as settlers…..
Even so, you Brits have the Chutzpah of lying to the World that “No Expulsion” took place because you only kicked some “Military and their Dependents”……
I wonder how many people would be left in Malvinas today if somebody kicked all Military & Ex-Military, Militia & Ex-Militia, Crown Servants & Ex Crown Servants together with all their dependents out of them Islands?
A couple of hundreds at best….
Mostly Chileans and Saints….
They weren't booted out because they were settlers, but because they were the occupying forces of a foreign state.
your arguments are getting even weaker
any answers to my posts @181 & @184
”I wonder how many people would be left in Malvinas -(Falklands)”
Enough to deal with you bunch of tossers !
They'd only been there 3 months.
The Argentine is unravelling around you.
Argentina and the Malvinistas trawl around the world spreading a myth, a myth that most are too busy or lazy to check up on.
To hear Cristina Kirchner speak, or Malvinero1 or others on these boards, you would imagine that:
There was a massive, long term indigenous population of Argentines leaving peacefully on the islands, when the nasty British turned up out of the blue, and forced them all to leave. That is the myth, that's what Kirchener is trying to sell to the world.
The truth, as now quite clearly we all understand it.
The islands were unoccupied by 1811 having previously housed French, Spanish and British civilian populations.
By 1828, Vernet set up his private enterprise of 30 or so civilians. You number 7 of his party as Argentines..ok, if you say so. I doubt it's important as Vernet was quite happy with either sovereignty.
The next Argentines arrived in November 1832. Their presence was challenged even before their arrival, but again, you give a number just shy of 60. Ok, if you say so. Again, if you want to be picky, not all f these were Argentine, although, unlike Vernet, I agree they represented the united Provinces.
8-10 weeks later they were expelled. Four of Vernets community left with them. You say these four were Argentine, I suggest they were from Uruguay, but not too important.
Please can you contact Cristina Fernandez and ask her to change the primary school curriculum to reflect this new concensus.
please can you as CFK to send another open letter to the Guardian to reflect this concensus.
please can you make sure that this new concensus is relayed to the next Unasor, Mercosur, Anussore, whatever shitte meeting.
The concensus is that the only Argentines ever evicted from the Falklands were a militia in 1833 that had been there less than 12 weeks, and a militia in 1982 that had been there a similar time.
As colonialism goes..it's not up there is it??
Wishful thinking. think?
At least Think agrees with us now that his entire educational system is built upon the propagation of baseless lies and that no one other than a foreign occupying militia and their descendents were evicted.
Did we find out why the Argentines don't regard the black folks on the islands as real people? Is it something about their german roots?
1, come and get them, regardless of any difficulties [we would]
2, take us to the ICJ.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
They refuse on both accounts,
The islands will remain British until, they say otherwise ..
.
axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_64333.shtml
www.fihplc.com/index.php?section=0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCBOKkQh4Lg&list=PLVsnqjOl38r8u8td01CEbCZQ-lMFbJHK6
Get over it, and make some sense next time.
Please tell us, as we could use a laugh, exactly what you would do with your nucleus defence programme, 100% Argentina built.
How would you use it to “prevent and end the illegal occupation of your country”
What would you imagine the response might be...come on laddie, I could use a giggle.
The lack of morality in what they are asking is lost on these people.
And Pirat-Hunter moved to Canada (with the Queen of Canada as the head of state) to get away from living under British occupation.
And I thought CFK hiring a British jet was the funniest thing coming out of Argentina this month.
he does not know who he is , where he is , why he is ,
we dont even know if he is human.
prove it. hombra .lol.
and the british are the best.
still
she could always go by boat lol.
It is therefore fair to assume that it is the accurate version.
My view is that prior to 1811 is pretty irrelevant based on the fact that in those times, if you couldn't sustain a civilian population the land wasn't yours. France, Spain and Britain failed to do so. Forget plaques..etc no civilians, no claim.
In 1828, Vernet set up his business venture. Whether this constitutes a civilian population is debatable, whether they were Argentine is (according to both sides now, highly improbable), whether they were representatives of either Britain or the UP or both is highly debatable. But none of them were forced to leave..four chose to...we agree again.
In November 1832, 50 odd militia including their families arrived to claim sovereignty. They murdered their captain, raped his wife, and we all agree we forced to leave in January 1833.
So...the blatant act of 19th century colonialism was the removal of a 50-stong militia made up of mutineers, murderers and rapists, who were themselves trying to colonise and had only been there 10 weeks.
It's pretty weak isn't it?
And a whole country has been sold this shit, it's taught to primary schools, a president goes round the world spewing over other Heads of State.
Jesus its embarrassing....
So we even got rid of our own British pirates !!!
It's all nonsense.
This act requires a full page advertisement from a Head of State and round the world jollies sucking off world leaders.
Crikey.
What a pathetic joke of leader CFK is.
l think you've been well & truely knocked into a cocked hat.
The boys & girls on here have completely demolished your weak, lying arguments.
Even you, even you(repeated for emphasis!), must realise that you are wrong & have been proved to be wrong.
So, whats your silly country's next move?
Claim another country's land? Maybe you could try to take TDF from Chile?
Don't think so, Chile would kick your sorry arses right back to La Plata.
l must have been needling you, eh Cher Think?
Out with the insults when you can't win!
How very Argentine!
Btw Dahling, whats a dhaling? (snigger).
You're not an lnformation Office for anything..................except lying.
Got it now Think?
“Them” lslands are NOT yours.
British Antarctic Territory is NOT yours.
Just stay on the Pampas(which your country stole from dead people).
Hope this helps.
What on earth is a 'crown servant'? Are you talking about nurses and teachers? And why would you want to expel them? In what way are they similar to an occupying military garrison?
And what have Chileans and St Helenians got to do with it? A lot of them are 'crown servants', in that they work for FIG. I guess that's what you mean. If you kicked out anyone who had ever in the course of their working life done any work for FIG, you probably wouldn't have anyone much left. And your point is......?
You aren't making any sense. You might even be starting to believe your own propaganda.
The military garrison in 1833 was kicked out because it shouldn't have been here. It had raised some horrid flag that wasn't the Union flag (what flag would it have been?), and was claiming what didn't belong to them. The people expelled were the ones, presumably, who didn't accept British rule, who would mainly have been the military. As it turned out, it took a little while longer to establish effective rule over the shocking bunch of violent criminals who were left (or Argentine heroes, if you prefer), but Britain did it in the end.
And we've been here ever since. Whether we are new arrivals, first generation, 15th generation, 'crown servants' or freewheeling entrepreneurs, is, frankly, none of your business. You don't have sovereignty, you don't set immigration policy, and you don't have a vote. Whatever the faults of our system, and there are many, we don't need you to point them out, and you don't have the power to put them right.
You need to toddle off and take care of that bloody great plank in your own eye and leave us to it.
But they didn't, they lost. They're sour losers.... dripping in 100% pure sourness.
i dont think this was just a photo shoot meeting With international terrorism on the rise, last time I checked the CIA, mossad and m16 are still operational.
www.fihplc.com/index.php?section=0
“Not everyone is happy about the vritish colony.
i dont think this was just a photo shoot meeting With international terrorism on the rise, last time I checked the CIA, mossad and m16 are still operational.
www.fihplc.com/index.php?section=0”;
Funny!
You think spy agencies and secret plots are behind all of Argentina's woes.
The truth is, they probably don't think about Argentina and don't even know La Campora exists
LOL
“Argentina and the Malvinistas trawl around the world spreading a myth, a myth that most are too busy or lazy to check up on”
ok then, read your own British history sites..
The British Empire
“Three years later, the British did formally leave the islands and they passed into the Spanish Empire for the next forty years. This arrangement was formally recognised by the British in the 1790 Nootka Sound Convention by which Britain formally rejected any colonial ambitions in 'South America and the islands adjacent'. It also reflected a weakening of British power in the Western Hemisphere coming shortly after the embarrassing loss of the 13 colonies partly thanks to French and Spanish intervention.
The Spanish claim on the islands would falter with the South American Wars for Independence at the start of the nineteenth century. The Spanish removed their formal representative and settlers from the island from 1810 and completed it by 1811. The islands were left to their own fate for the next decade as sealing and whaling ships might call in from time to time to take advantage of the harbour and fresh water. It was not to be until 1820 that the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata would send a frigate to the islands in order to assert their control as part of the legacy of post-colonial Spanish claims to authority there. Buenos Aires would appoint their first governor in 1823 who tried to limit the whole-scale slaughter of seals which were in danger of being made extinct on the islands. A penal colony was also established on the island”
Kind of you to quote from an unknown source.
You need to post the link to corroberate your posting.
I might add that if it is a hastily researched and written article in the media, it is hardly an accurate historical account or academically verified document of events.
As a former Vice Consul in South America you should know how to find it yourself..
Strangely enough, the only references to this text in google are the several occasions on which you have posted it yourself on mercopress without attribution. That's really credible.
Unfortunate also that this version of events is clearly contradicted by primary Argentine sources available on Argentine government websites, and indeed declaimed to the UN in June 2012 by CFKs' own delegation in the presence of CFK herself.
I think in this case at least, I might be willing to go with the official public statements of the Argentine government, namely delegation member
Marcelo Luis Vernet reading from the diary of his great-great-grandmother Mrs Luis Vernet to the C24 in June 2012 :
'Sunday, 30 August 1829 was a feast day for the village. Maria writes in her diary “Very good Saint Rose of Lima day, so Vernet has decided to take possession today of the islands in the name of the government of Buenos Aries”'.
So there we have it. The official representative of the BA government decides to claim possession for BA in August 1829.
Clearly if they are only claiming possession in 1829, they evidently didn't consider they had possession before that date. And therefore by their own admission they could not have held possession not in 1820, or 1823, as your magisterial unattributed anonymous source would have it.
But don't argue with me, take it up with Marcelo Luis Vernet, the Argentine Foreign Ministry, or the website of the Argentine ambassador to the UN.
www.embajadaabierta.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/vernet.pdf
Nobody is debating that the British left the islands, as did the Spanish. In 1811 there was no civilian population, only a plaque or two.
Therefore no civilian population, no sovereignty claim.
You can appoint a governor for Mars for all I care....no civilian population...no sovereignty.
Now we have agreed with Think that Vernets community was not Argentine, nor representatives of UP, and they were not expelled....no civilian population no sovereignty.
Now we have agreed with think that the militia were only there for 3 months, and not a civilian population...no civilian population..no sovereignty.
Subsequently, the islanders who live there today have supported an unbroken civilian population of 180 years...CIVILIAN POPULATION = SOVEREIGNTY.
Had, as the Malvinistas claimed...at any time a Spanish, French, UP or Argentine civilian population been forcibly removed from the islands, then Argentina would today have a wafer thin case (far thinner than the indigenous Patagonians though)....however as it never happened, there is no case to answer.
Does anyone else understand why these Argentines are unable to attribute their sources through clear citations? They cannot even seem to provide one, and yet it's taken as fact by themselves.
It's seriously worrying.
Isolde sorry to put you with the above but this is info only! Have all the names of the militia who were deported and families but a long list and will run out of type and time!
29 servicemen and 23 wives and children of then - total 52 servicemen and families deported. In reality the servicemen only were deported- the familes left NATURALLY with them! I have not doubt they could have stayed had they wanted to.
Alse shipped out was One Arg prisoner Maximo Vbarnes (warnes).
Also 2 “foreigners” - it is assumed than they had just arrived also on the Sarandi and were not actually part of the community- a Jose Viel and Francisco Ferreyra - it is assumed they left volunbtarily of their own accord.
Also left voluntarily of their own wish the settlers:
Joaquin Avuna and wife Marica and Joaquin Acuna and wife Juana - these were a Ur and a Brazilian couple - not Argentine it appears.
So - as UK has always stated - they deported the Militia - and their families went with them (and I guess their prisoner).
All others left voluntaril;y -6 - or stayed 22. Also another 5 civilians left on the “Rapid” who escorted the Sarandi - but they went to see Vernet and get more stores etc - and returned.
Anyway Think an I now seem to agree of what actually happened and at least the approx numbers.
Marco - you need to come up with clear evidence if you wish to dispute the above.
All the above info is in your Arg Historical records anyway.
So much for History - but they more important issue anyway is that 180 years on, the world(excepting one country perhaps) has moved on and today it is peoples who come first.
Nice painting this one, too
www.malvinense.com.ar/smalvi/11/1769.htm
www.elmalvinense.com.ar/smalvi/11/1769.htm
“Marco - you need to come up with clear evidence if you wish to dispute the above.”
Hmm, Mark is running from this thread too, as well as his stupid racism that he showed on another thread.
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!