Monday, February 11th 2013 - 16:13 UTC

Next Pope could be Latinamerican, admit senior Vatican officials

With Pope Benedict's stunning announcement that he will resign end of the month, the time may be coming for the Roman Catholic Church to elect its first non-European leader and it could be a Latin American. The region already represents 42% of the world's 1.2 billion-strong Catholic population, the largest single block in the Church, compared to 25% in its European heartland and is has several outstanding candidates, according to Church sources.

The frail Benedict XVI is stepping down as Pope at the end of the month

In 2005, Buenos Aires Archbishop Bergoglio was one of the leading candidates

After Pope John Paul and German-born Benedict, the post once reserved for Italians is now open to all and in 2005 allegedly an Argentine cardinal elector (Archbishop of Buenos Aires) made it to the last round of vote.

Who gets the nod depends on the profile of the new pope that the cardinals who elect him at the next conclave think will guide the Church best.

Two senior Vatican officials recently dropped surprisingly clear hints about possible successors. The upshot of their remarks is that the next pope could well be from Latin America.

“I know a lot of bishops and cardinals from Latin America who could take responsibility for the universal Church,'' said Archbishop Gerhard Mueller, who now holds the pope's old post as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

”The universal Church teaches that Christianity isn't centered on Europe,'' the German-born archbishop told Düsseldorf’s Rheinische Post newspaper just before Christmas.

Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, head of the Vatican department for Christian unity, told the Tagesanzeiger daily in Zurich at the same time that the Church's future was not in Europe.

“It would be good if there were candidates from Africa or South America at the next conclave,'' he said, referring to the closed-door election in the Vatican's Sistine Chapel. Asked if he would vote for a non-European over a European candidate if they were equally qualified, he responded, ”Yes.''

If the next conclave really is Latin America's turn, the leading candidates there seem to be Odilo Scherer, archbishop of the huge diocese of Sao Paolo, or the Italian-Argentine Leonardo Sandri, now heading the Vatican department for Eastern Churches.

Peter Turkson from Ghana, now head of the Vatican's justice and peace department, is often tipped as Africa's frontrunner.

About half the cardinals who can vote are from Europe, even though only a quarter of the world's Catholics live there. If the conclave tilts to the Old Continent, Vatican watchers say Angelo Scola of Milan is in pole position. Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, a former student and close ally of Benedict, is also considered a strong candidate.

In 2005 the current Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Jorge Bergoglio, a Jesuit, was summoned to Rome upon the death of Pope John Paul II to participate in the papal conclave as cardinal elector and as a possible candidate is believed to have lost to Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) in the fourth decisive ballot.

Earlier, he had participated in the funeral or Pope John Paul II and acted as a regent alongside the College of Cardinals, governing the Holy See and the Roman Catholic Church during the interregnum sede vacante period. Cardinal Bergoglio remains eligible to participate in any future conclave that begins before his 80th birthday on December 17, 2016.

Catholic journalist John L. Allen Jr. reported that Bergoglio had been a frontrunner in the 2005 Conclave. An unauthorized diary of uncertain authenticity released in September 2005 further affirmed that Bergogolio was the runner-up and main challenger of Cardinal Ratzinger during the conclave. The purported diary of the anonymous cardinal claimed Bergoglio received 40 votes during the third ballot, but fell back to 26 at the fourth and decisive ballot.

155 comments Feed

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1 Idlehands (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 04:21 pm Report abuse
Please let it be an Argentine. Just what the Catholic church needs.
2 Conqueror (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 04:43 pm Report abuse
Yeah. Turn the “catholic church” into a buttfu**ing cult based in latino america. Then we can forget it. Argies, particularly, like buttfu**ing. Most argies like to be buttfu**ed on their way “home” from the benefit office. Occasionally, some argies, with the aid of a splint, can be persuaded to do it. But, according to argie females, they prefer dildos. Longer than an inch, wider than a pencil!
3 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 04:48 pm Report abuse
Hello all FALKLANDERS, do you have anybody in the community that would like to put his or her name forward for the next Pope. I understand the position will be vacated at the end of this month.
4 Ayayay (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 04:59 pm Report abuse
Ew Catholic Church
5 Shed-time (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 05:08 pm Report abuse
Well, if there is one thing Catholics need, when they're not praying to golden effigies of Mary or some other demi-god/saint, is a mediator between the Big G and themselves who lives in a palace on a throne of gold.

Following their avid assistance in the Rat-trails to South America, it's not unsurprising that after an ex-nazi they would have a south american populist, presumably with a similarly germanic name. Why don't they just go the whole hog and have Tony 'priest hole' Blair?

What would John Wycliffe do?
6 gay from London (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 05:18 pm Report abuse
I don't agree with such comments. Please, no more jokes!
7 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
I understood that the next Pope may come from SA so whats the problem?
8 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 05:39 pm Report abuse
That is what Richard the third is looking for.
9 Brit Bob (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:01 pm Report abuse
Interesting to note that when Chile and Argentina had a territorial dispute over the Beagle Islands the Pope was asked to make a judgement and came down on the side of Chile!
10 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:01 pm Report abuse
the UK news said his the King bones were found in a parking lot in London.
11 Britworker (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:03 pm Report abuse
Where is Oliver Cromwell when you need him!
12 JoseAngeldeMonterrey (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:09 pm Report abuse
Brazil first (123 m.) and Mexico (95m) second are have the largest populations of Catholics in the world, while catholicism has receded in many parts of Europe, due to demographic changes (people have less and less children) and the spread of secularism and of other religions as well, their catholic population numbers now pale in comparison to those in the Americas and other continents. So it makes perfect sense that the next Pope be Latin American, however the US also has a sizable Catholic population (73m).
13 CaptainSilver (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:18 pm Report abuse
Superstition, ignorance and blind faith helped turn Latin countries into basket cases . Argentina is a prime example. I do give his predecessor some credit for killing off communism and the attendant backwardness, ignorance and aggression. Read about it in 'Nothing to envy' and see the hell that Rgs will face if they continue on their present path with Chavez and Castro as best mates.

It's sad that many Latin countries in SA are embracing communism and looney left wing policies like CFK which are dragging Argentina even further down.

Imagine.... Said John Lennon particularly the bit about 'no religion'
14 Britishbulldog (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:26 pm Report abuse
God help the rest of the Catholic world if they choose one that comes from Argentina. But there again they would not be that daft would they or would they?
15 Gordo1 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:26 pm Report abuse
The current Cardinal Archbishop of Tegucigalpa, Honduras is the most qualified cleric in Latin America and who is he most obvious candidate for election as the next Pontiff.

Let's pray the College of Cardinals ignores Opus Dei candidates.
16 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:32 pm Report abuse
this has nothing to do with us,
unless ??
nah never,
they wouldent ?
17 Ayayay (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:37 pm Report abuse
@8 lol Sussie, you made a good joke!
18 AB_90 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:39 pm
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19 yankeeboy (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
CFK is only worth millions WHILE she is in office. The next gov't will take everything away from her and her family.
20 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:43 pm Report abuse
prove it.
21 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:44 pm Report abuse
@11 Liza
No actually in a car park in Leicester
22 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:49 pm Report abuse
but it was not a car park in the 15th
23 AB_90 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:53 pm
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24 brucey-babe (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:54 pm Report abuse
I suppose Tony Blair is waiting for the call.
25 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 06:56 pm Report abuse
are u joe 90
26 AB_90 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:03 pm
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27 ChrisR (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:05 pm Report abuse
I don't have to imagine ‘no religion’: I am an atheist.

So the present Anti-Christ is hanging up his lies and deceit and ‘faith’ in the never-never: perhaps he will croak it soon, maybe Dead Man Not Walking can make it a twosome.

Given that this cretin shielded the child abusers for years and made the problem of broken lives so much worse by his denial even though he knew the truth , it is a pity there is no hell because he and all the ‘priests’ could have the same thing they did to little boys and the few little girls, done to them for the rest of eternity. But that would still not be justice, would it?

The RC church TGW all the other flavours of drug substitution in the world and comforters for the poor sods who cannot face the world and life on their own, have caused more suffering and continue to do so, than any other man derived thing since the start of all this nonsense 2013 years ago.
28 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:08 pm Report abuse
R U Russian.
29 Raven (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:11 pm Report abuse
Are the chemists all on strike in Argentina?

There seems to be a few recently that are lacking their meds, even Tinky winky has succumbed.

@24 Do not call CFK's biography as only worth millions, it must be worth Trillions!!! (of Zimbabwe dollars)(or 35 pence in UK Sterling).
30 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:15 pm Report abuse
24 is sadly upset for not being born british,

but there ya go,
you either have it,
or ya dont.

he dont lol.
31 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:16 pm Report abuse
At least he died fighting ,he did not run away or was abandoned.
Its called BRITISH, but you would know that would'nt you?
A BRITON was the indigenous population before we colonised it and called it THE BRITISH ISLES.( or UNITED KINGDOM )
32 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:26 pm Report abuse
true, it was very much in the country then, like most things nowdays, its either a housing estate or a car park
as for [27]
he just aint that clever.
simple, but not clever lol.
33 AB_90 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:26 pm Report abuse
34 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:33 pm Report abuse
I think we ought to give him a funeral with full Military Honours in the FALKLANDS, if they can find a spot for him where there are no Argentinian mines,that they kindly left us BRITS to make safe.
The UN ought to get the Argentinians to remove them.
35 reality check (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:36 pm Report abuse
Did it escape from a Monty Python film set? you filthy bed wetting types, will be the next line it comes back with!

It's that demented harrida Sussie, thas who tis!
36 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:39 pm
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37 Pirate Love (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:43 pm Report abuse
@27 , @34 isnt it past your bedtime? you have special school in the morning.
retards god bless them.
38 Captain Poppy (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:45 pm Report abuse
This is a non article...... why even bother posting. Nothing to do the the fascist peronist kirchners.
39 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:45 pm Report abuse
why we bother to try and educate them, i dont know,

it must be the kind soul in us.
40 Shed-time (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 07:59 pm Report abuse
@28 That's a bit strong.

If we stand back and look at those great athiests the world has produced pol-pot, lenin, lenon, stalin, mao, hitler, richard 'grey' dawkins... you don't see any of them setting up orphanages, to ease world suffering. I think what you're blaming humanities ills on religion, which is misappropriated somewhat.

Anyways... I refuse to get greyed-out by the usual athiest fun-extraction service today, it's not worth it and makes me feel old.
41 Britninja (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 08:09 pm Report abuse
@42 See, this is why Nurse wants you to keep the incontinence pants on, dirty dirty Susie.
42 green_68 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 08:12 pm Report abuse
Oh....SussieUS....she is the best!
the UK TEAM keeps talking about her..........
43 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 08:25 pm Report abuse
42 and 44
if you got to the roof, and jump of,
we will get rid of you,
quick run.
44 green_68 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 08:32 pm Report abuse
I am here to stay, like it or not!
45 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 08:34 pm Report abuse
oh goody,

your better than the last comedian.
46 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:02 pm Report abuse
Apparently Richard the third skeleton was found with his hands missing. Must have been some Argentine holiday maker stealing the Tesco vouchers that he was clutching at the time. The topic tonight is Supermarket freeze in Argentina
47 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:15 pm Report abuse
this was the last blog/story that was put on 5 hours ago,

are we to assume the worls has gone quiet, and nothing else has happend.
48 Optimus_Princeps (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:16 pm Report abuse
Something doesn't smell right. For our sakes, I'm hoping that he's not replaced with another pedophile, and that it's not someone that will rally a bunch of morons to support terrible governments.

Though, that sick feeling in my stomach warns me that it's more likely than not.
49 Gordo1 (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
As a proud British citizen and a passionate Englishman but also a Catholic I find the atheist and anti-Catholic remarks on this site to be abominable. You should all be totally ashamed of yourselves - this has nothing to do with the Falkland Islands, with Argentina, with la Kretina. So cool it!
50 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:20 pm Report abuse
@ 51
so why Merco-british crap-Press permits more comments?
51 Captain Poppy (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:40 pm Report abuse
Freedom of speech means hearing thing one group of people may not like hearing.
This is Mercos Presses website.....then can censure posts if they wish.....and conversely not is they choose to do so.
52 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:49 pm
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53 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 09:50 pm Report abuse
Stop offending South Americans!
stop offending the nice british then.
54 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:11 pm Report abuse
Pot, Kettle, Black springs to mind. Your trolls on this site are the most offensive.
You have to read some of your compradres on here. I for one am not anti Argentinians in general, its just you think you are superior to the rest of us. Put it this way ,you voted your ******** ( fill your own word here ) Government you, if you live there have to come to terms with it.Don' come crying to us.
55 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:15 pm
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56 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:22 pm Report abuse
ok ok lol.
57 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:30 pm
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58 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:47 pm Report abuse
59 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:47 pm Report abuse
No answer Liza darling
60 liza (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:50 pm
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61 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:52 pm Report abuse
@62 would love to meet you , you sound very sexy and intelligent, I like that in my women
62 briton (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 10:56 pm Report abuse
look susy, let start again,

be friends,
come sit on my lap, and we can talk about the first thing that pops up.

hey be nice.
63 golfcronie (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 11:01 pm Report abuse
Christ is sussie two timing me, No matter I have Liza
64 Captain P0ppy (#) Feb 11th, 2013 - 11:54 pm Report abuse
some one among the goo d people of rgentina would be a fine choice for the next pope! im a catholic myself and so is my wife. No condoms then, haha!
65 Nostrolldamus the 10th (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 12:11 am Report abuse
It must be a national day of morning across Europe, losing a Pope with whom they could identify so much with as a culture... oh, well, I'm sure the little 9 year olds will find confort in the beds of millions across that continent.
66 Captain Poppy (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 12:14 am Report abuse
Who the fuck hacked my name?
67 Ayayay (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:00 am Report abuse
She just added a zero.instead of an 'O' Cap'n.
68 Captain Poppy (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:16 am Report abuse
I've been screaming at MP to delete that ghost name unless it is associated with my email. The trolls are so pathetically sick that they have to resort posting as someone else. It's a sure sign that they cannot handle criticism. But it seems as an rgentine, once a criminal mind.......always a criminal mind.
69 HB_BB (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:19 am
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70 jonas_Bs.As. (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:53 am
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71 slattzzz (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:14 am Report abuse
Rgenweener could provide the next Pope why not one more from the Hitler Youth
72 jonas_Bs.As. (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:21 am
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73 slattzzz (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:32 am Report abuse
@72 You're not a very good cathlic are you, Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth
74 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:00 am Report abuse
While Ratzinger is a an illiberal dinosaur he was (as you said) conscripted into the Hitler Youth while a child. They didn't really have much choice at the time. I agree with almost nothing he has ever said but he isn't a Nazi.
75 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:15 am Report abuse
... Was the weekly 'banquet of the chestnuts' too much?

'whilst walking around the garden of Eden the Big G said unto Adam, “I cannot talk to you directly any more adam, I have to make a rich historically-warmongering pedarist-protector who sits on a pile of gold and then you can talk to him through me. He will also be able to sell you indulgences for £1mil”

Adam said 'oh, will I have to engage in idolatry / ancestor worship of 'saints' too?'
76 reality check (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:46 am Report abuse
My brother married a catholic, when their first baby was born, his wifes mother refused to see the child until they had it christend a catholic. I have no problem with anyones religion, or their beliefs, but how f...king sad is that?
77 ElaineB (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:53 am Report abuse
An African Pope seems the most likely but we shall have to wait until Easter to find out.

Interesting that it was after the Pope's visit to Cuba that he decided he couldn't go on.
78 golfcronie (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 09:00 am Report abuse
Good decision at his age. He obviously felt he could not cope with the pressures of modern life. Good luck to him. Incidentley I am not a Catholic.
79 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 09:21 am Report abuse
Well, I liked the comments from different cardenals in the article, thanks mercopress didn´t see this kind of coverage at other sites :)

It does makes sense to chose a Pope from out of Europe to give our Church its universal character, but I would not think it fine to chose a Pope just in base of this, most Catholic Priests I know, and I have known some from Spain, Mexico, Honduras and Argentina, are very apt theologically and philosophically speaking as well as truly good persons. I am sure the conclave will observe and search for all this characteristics for the next Pope. If the chosen is Argentine, Brazilian, European or African will be good either way for me :)

I liked that the Argentine cardenal mentioned here is a jesuit, their order is very appreciated from where I live since a long time, for the schools they founded, their knowledge at various disciplines, as well as their coherence of values and aptitude with the catholic character.

What surprises me is thiswhole situation, it´s a truly especial case given this has not happened since at least 6oo years, from what I khow.
80 slattzzz (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 10:13 am Report abuse
It's time for African pontiff............we can call him coco popes. That's just a wee joke before you all get up in arms
81 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 10:20 am Report abuse
My favourite quote about the “discipline of theology”

“”The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing“

Thomas Paine

The truth in that observation is why I find it difficult to have respect for anyone that has dedicated their life to theology. It seems it can be summarised as ”The Make Stuff Up Club”
82 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 10:27 am Report abuse

I agree, is probably a good time for him to retire if he truly doesn´t feel well, and lately him and the Church had to be a lot more active than usual. I just think is strange, but well, hope this is for good.
83 reality check (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 11:04 am Report abuse
It's a very courageous decision, he clearly is a man that puts his church above himself and I do not see how that can ever be the wrong sort of decision to take.
84 CaptainSilver (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 11:35 am Report abuse
You know things are getting bad when even God starts laying people off...
85 DanyBerger (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 11:42 am Report abuse
I would like to see Bergoglio to become the next Pope.

So we will not have to see this dinosaurs around Buenos Aires anymore.

And that will be fantastic.
86 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 11:52 am Report abuse
83 Agreed

81. Well, the average priest in training must know an elemental level of philosophy, theology, and some other career if his chosing like medicine, antropology, etc., so no, they dont just study theology, in fact theology is a discipline, but also an instrument that works and makes reflections from the basic principles of christianity, to help interpret better the holy Bible, which is natural and expected of a priest, if a person that isn´t christian, or isn´t really that interested in religious philosophy I guess theology will seem to them as having no point at all or even make sense, which I think is the case of Mr. Paine here :)
87 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 11:56 am Report abuse
@76 Curious really that the child was never asked whether or not they wanted to be a part of a religion that espouses praying to the desiccated remains of someone who killed a dragon. I'm sure she'll thank the mother-in-law for that decision at some point in the future.

I'm a filthy-protestant, does that mean I can buy indulgences like Tony Blair does?
88 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 12:06 pm Report abuse
What´s wrong with being a protestant'? :(
89 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 12:20 pm Report abuse
87 Shed-time
Is that a reference to St George the Frog? Is he a big part of Catholicism?

Are there any Catholics on here that can explain the business of “Speaking in Tongues”? Always seemed to be a passed down legend that was a theological observation of those that had tucked into the communion wine too much.

NB Catholics don't be too offended. I'm equally rude to those of all religious persuasions. I find it difficulat to even take it seriously as a topic.
90 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 12:38 pm Report abuse
Well, maybe you have good luck today because I swear I wasn´t trying to do that at all, if that seems so please stop me :)

I dont really know too much about speaking in tongues, all I know about it is that some prophets start speaking in tongues while receving messages. But really that is quite rare to ear about and even harder to prove, and isn´t particular of the catholic church but also of others religious groups.
91 commonsparrow (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:05 pm Report abuse
Its not important that the next pope be latinamerican or african. Whats important is an honest leader strong enough to stand up for whats right and not whats politically correct and lead a billion catholics worldwide (if thats how many are remaining) and not hide pedophile priests who have destroyed so many children's lives.
92 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:13 pm Report abuse
91 Completely agree
93 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:41 pm Report abuse
@91 how can you say that when he's infallible? (gave Jimmy Saville a catholic knighthood)

@88 Nothing. I'm one.
94 CaptainSilver (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:49 pm Report abuse
Jesus is coming....... Look busy!
95 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 01:50 pm Report abuse
The new pope needs to recognise condoms as a valid method of both contracrption and prevention of the spread of STDs. Previous popes have caused the death of thousands due to their pronouncements.
96 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:02 pm Report abuse
@91 He is infallible in the pastoral sense as the actual leader of the Church meaning after Christ himself , the Pope as the sucesor of Pedro has been given the authority to give pastoral teachings about the Christian/catholic faith, its principles, its ethics, its sacraments, its decalogue,etc, following Jesus words when he said “ I tell you that you are Pedro, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” But in the political and human sense, the Pope is as human as everyone else, and can admit to be wrong, in fact his recent actions show he is admiting to human fragility and Pedro himself was hardly an infallible man to begin with but Christ still chose him as the rock of his Church.

@88 That is great, hope you dont think being catholic is a bad thing either :)
97 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:05 pm Report abuse
' ... and The Big J man said to the disciples, “200 years after me there will be a man who will call himself Rome-Pope who will basically ignore everything I said and make a religion based upon selling indulgences, womanising and select on your behalf which testaments and gospels you should or shouldn't read, treating you like a child.”, and added, ”Unlike John the Baptist who wore barely anything as a sign of poverty, the Roman-Pope will wear naught but the finest of garments and will pray constantly to either my mother or the quadrinity that includes the father, the son, the force and the burning bush '.

... go in peace to love and serve the lord.
98 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:32 pm Report abuse
@97 Sigh, here we go :) would you believe me if I said I have seen and heard this same criticisms by other Priests, Orders and even faithful alike ? Believeme we hardly are little critical about our institution, in fact the Order of the Franciscans (another one of my favourites) begun precisely as a criticism on the Church on its use of resources over the needs of the poor, Jesuits and Dominicas too, on their own way. The Pope, roman or not, is still Pedro´s sucessor and still has that pastoral characteristic from our pov, but this is literally a centuries debate that I dont have any hope we can end here.

Now, I understand completely, especially at this times, if other religions or Christians wish to be more active on criticising the catholic church, my pov is to ask of them to be fair and truhtful on their criticism. After all, most catholics still consider Protestants, Orthodox , separate Christians etc. of Being Christians as well. And I personally have always thought our arguing to be superficial in the sense our esential beliefs and values are pretty much the same or at least similar, but well, that´s just me and my point of view.

Oh dear, does that mean we still aren´t in your good graces yet ;) , such a shame, maybe next time :)
99 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:47 pm Report abuse
Sorry, I was just nailing some an essay of my 95 arguments to the church door.


Father - pope - priest - self
son - pope - priest - self
force - pope - priest - self
burning bush - pope - priest - self
Mary - self
Saint N of N - self
dessicated hand - self
other relic - self
bleeding eye - self
self + stigmata - huh?

Structurally I'd have to disagree with you, and if we look at famous catholics like Tony Blair and Jimmy Saville... I'm not sure about that either.
100 Nostrolldamus the 10th (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:54 pm Report abuse

“What's wrong with being a protestant? :(”
Origin: Methodism
Origin: protestantism (Bible infallibility)
Origin: seventh day adventist
Origin: Protestantism, new age
Origin: baptist

Need I continue?

Protestants are loons, whacked out, cult of personality worshippers, and weak-willed. They claim to have restored the church from the pervs, but all they do is worship false prophets (as you see above Protestantism at it's core is the deification of cult leaders... abhorrent).

So, basically, catholism and protestantism are faithful representations of European culture.

Perverted and megalomaniac... nouff said.
101 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 02:59 pm Report abuse
99 Shed-time

You'll never make a fit and healthy Catholic if you live on a diet of worms. There must be an EU directive on their edibility - probably in beef lasagne from Tescos
102 ChrisR (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:07 pm Report abuse
@32 briton

Was it you berating @27 (me) or the mad sussie?

@40 Shed-time aka Greek-yoghourt

As you wish to align me with Pol-pot, Lenin, Lenon, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Richard Dawkins perhaps I should align you with Salah al-Din, Richard The Lion Heart, and the present bunch of holy-Joes in the USA who want YOUR MONEY NOW- in Jesus’ name as they are all deluded and incapable of thinking for themselves.

I was a Christian, CofE High Church and until the age of 12 was (eventually) the High Server of the church my parents were the caretakers of. And then I grew up and started wondering about any ‘God’ who allowed a new born baby into the world with terrible sins against it. And why, if he was my saviour, did I have to have the fear of God within me.

Then I realised that ALL the twaddle spouted by the Priests, etc. was written by people with their own agendas centuries after the event; if there ever was an event as the Jews don’t seem to think he ‘was the one’.

And, if the churches knew anything, why was the Earth NOT the centre of the universe when it was proven by people with a brain? The flat earth argument also applies.


Why should I show any respect to any religious belief just because you say I should. You do not respect atheists even though we are not deluded by priests who are very careful to keep you away from God (you must come to the Lord through his church) and claim that a belief in nothing (because after 2013 years there is still no proof) is the ‘highest human quality anyone can have’. And you really, really believe that Jesus in corporal form ascended into heaven after he died. IN CORPORAL FORM!

So don’t you DARE tell me to cool it, got it now?

40 Sed-time aka Greek
103 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:07 pm Report abuse
Sorry, but your arguments doesn´t make sense to me at all but maybe you are right I was generalizing a little. My point was mostly we believe in one god and Christ



Divine trinity: Father-Son-Holy Spirit- Our Father, Our Saviour, Our Guide (One- Three and the same)
Virgin Mary-mother of God and of all of us
Saints: blessed brothers of us in heaven
Pope: sucesor of Pedro
Priests: sucesors of apostles
faithful: Sons/Daughters of God in Christ, Students of Christ.

more or less, but usually we dont use this type of didactic structure, so bear with me ;)

I dont know what your problem with Blair and Saville is, but we catholics hardly made interviews on who can enter or not, so I dont think it very fair to hold them agaist us you know. :)
104 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:17 pm Report abuse
102 ChrisR

My sister got annoyed with me when her 9 year old started talking about Jesus and I asked him what evidence he had been given and mentioned that I didn't believe any of it.

Her argument was that he should be allowed to make up his own mind. In essence she was perfectly happy for him to be subjected to and indoctrinated by the faithful but was unhappy that anyone be allowed to challenge those views. The odd thing is that she is not exactly one of the faithful. Probably claims to believe in god but never actually exercises that belief in extremist behaviour like going to church.
105 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:37 pm Report abuse
@102 Sort of threw the baby out with the bath-water there.

@104 If someone wakes up every morning and sees a magical unicorn in the garden, then goes for a ride on a magical unicorn, does it mean the magical unicorn doesn't exist simply because you have no evidence of its existence? Or does it exist because someone experienced it?

I understand that humanists are just 'extremist positivists', but it doesn't mean that science isn't made up of hypotheses some of which are untestable, nor does it discredit the need for perception as an important aspect of reality.

Your sister was wrong. She should allow you to present alternative views as, an untested faith is not a faith. Maybe she just didn't like the presentation.

@103 Your attempts to explain what is essentially polytheism wrapped into the quadrinity, combined with idolatrous worshipping of relics and ancestor worship of mary and a pantheon of demi-gods (the saints) is still that.

Then you have the mediator between you and the aforementioned collection of deities, semi-deities and decomposed relics/idols, who may or may not have touched altar boys.

That is categorically NOT Christianity. Please don't suggest that it is.
106 ChrisR (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
104 Idlehands

Yes, I know very well what you mean.

In a real world not highjacked by all the 'religious' the government would close the churcjhes down for misleading and false declarations.

Try doing it in business and see how far you get.

But I have learnt in 54 years that 'the believers' seem unable to even consider the ludicrous religeous claims for what they are: flim-flam and downright lies in most cases.
107 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 03:47 pm Report abuse
104, 105 It really comes down to decide for yourself if you believe or dont believe , because you can always believe in god but not feel really familiarized with a particular religion, or being agnostic or being convinced of your religion consciously and by your own will. even if you were born in a religion or another,human beings will always have the chance and capacity of deciding by themselves.
108 agent999 (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:16 pm Report abuse
What makes me really laugh is that some atheists are more extreme and intolerant than the religions they decry !
109 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:34 pm Report abuse
108 agent999

...but they are only intolerant of the religions. The religions are intolerant of all sorts
110 Shed-time (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 04:47 pm Report abuse
Athiesm, Humanism... they're just another form of belief system that in turn has it's own extremists, intolerant people, hypocrites, mass murderers and the like. Fundamentally all humans want to be 'right' and want to validate their beliefs.

Humans will be humans will be humans. It's ridiculous to blame things on theists or athiests, when it's just simple humanity.
111 golfcronie (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 05:32 pm Report abuse
Why not have a black woman Popess, that way we please all the politically correct brigade. She would be more caring to her flock, don't you think?
112 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 05:42 pm Report abuse
111 Dont really think so, the Catholic Church isn´t really about being “politically correct” , and are you actually sugesting the Church to make a black woman Pope just on the basis of her being a “black woman” ? It doesn´t seem right to me at any level, I am a mestizo woman myself and would actually hate a lot being given a high post at a religious or political institution just on the basis of my sex and race instead of my capabilities, I would find it profoudndly insulting and paternalistic.
113 golfcronie (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:05 pm Report abuse
There are plenty of black woman in responsible jobs, are you saying that it does not happen. I just think that in this enlightened age, gender, or colour should not be a barrier or do you think that the Catholic Church is not practising as it preaches as far as equality is concerned. How do you stand on contraception, do you think that the church has moved on?.
114 Idlehands (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:06 pm Report abuse
110 Shed-time

..the good old “atheism is just another belief system” argument. Atheism is not comparable to theism - it is merely a rejection on holding a belief based on nothing but faith. I believe things to be true when they are backed up by evidence. All religions rely on no evidence and total faith.
115 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:36 pm Report abuse
113 Oh Golf I understand perfectly well there´s plenty of women that actually are great at their jobs from all races, what I question was your use of being “politically correct” next to “chose a black woman” .

And well, I understand that the church ins´t politically correct most of the time, if it were it would have a lot less trouble with the political/social trends past and present.

My point here is that, religions themselves aren´t in the need of being politically corect because they dont work on the basis of actual or past socio-political trends but on their own beliefs and traditions . I will not deny that women aren´t allowed to be priestesses in todays Catholic Church, but ”Do they want to be Priest in the first place or just want to have their live dedicated to their faith? and being a Priest or religious is the only way to be close to God, or you can be a Christian while being married or single and having a career? Because there had been actual Saints that never were part of the Catholic Church but were good ppl and coherent with their faith. Also most Nuns I have encountered wanted to be on the basis of their faith and by their own will, knowing well the actual rules of the Curch and acepting them because their motivation for being there was very different to that of being a woman Cardenal or Pope one day.

About contraception, I stand on use the less possible or never the ones that involve invasive artefacts on the woman or those that use toxins and can produce quimic reactions that could be harmful to women. I am ok with condon generally and as a good conservative I would prefer for men and women to have sexual intercoure after 18 years.
116 ChrisR (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:36 pm Report abuse
113 golfcronie

Why not go the whole hog and have a disabled, black, lesbian, female?

No more rediculous than any other person holding sway over the lives of millions of people just for a baseless belief system.

Just think of all the damage the RC Popes have achieved over time:
1) Despotic view regarding Jews to the point where they connived with Hitler over the 'final solution!
2) Banning contraception because it's Gods will whether you have a child or not FFS!
3) Clawing money in God’s name from the poorest of people. When I was an engineer at an oil terminal in Nigeria, the local people could not clothe their children (apart from school clothes and they did look lovely) and at night you saw them playing in rags. BUT, the small village had no less than ELEVEN churches that were immaculately kept;
4) The ‘One True Religion’ still holds sway over governments especially in LatAm. At least Uruguay is secular, unlike AR who have priests in with government meetings. Does seem to make them any more Christian though does it?

If it were possible for me to have a button that with one press I could eradicate ALL religions on the planet without hurting the people involved and they never remembered their religious history I would press it in a heartbeat.

That act alone would stop the grieving and the worry of millions. Wouldn’t that be a ‘Christian’ thing to do?
117 briton (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:54 pm Report abuse
116 ChrisR
hi criss sorry abt that it was meant for 26 susy,
the number sliped.
118 golfcronie (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:56 pm Report abuse
I think all religions have a cross to bear ( pun intended ) Many wars have been over religion over the years and serious abuse to the poor has been highlighted.
119 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 06:57 pm Report abuse
What I dont get is why some ppl get so worked up about religious ppl, religion is mostly a personal choice made individually. and As in all things, extremism is nocive harmful be it religious, political, cultural, genetic or social.
120 Ayayay (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 07:10 pm Report abuse
Because those are some creepy photos of Catholic Poope contendors.
121 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 07:16 pm Report abuse
120 je, I will give you that, you really make me laugh with that one :)
122 briton (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 07:24 pm Report abuse
Just an opinion,

I was told you don’t need to go to church to pray,
If there was a god, why he let thousands / millions of innocent woman children, and babies
Left to die or get slaughtered,

And why he lets multiple killers and murderers get a good life, [in most cases]

Is it not true that religion is the biggest killer of innocent man [in part]
Yet all and every religion always preaches peace,

Is it also not true, that clever and slightly more intelligent men [in the past] used it as an act of power over the less intelligent people than were in fact just coned,

Also is it not true that we all pray to the same man, but called by a different man.

123 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 07:47 pm Report abuse
Three words “HUMAN FREE WILL” Who choses to kill, harm , lie or manipulate? You said Religions are used to lie and manipulate ppl , but isn´t this true too when talking about extreme politics, culture, economic or social beliefs? so are we to think all those concepts are inherenty destructive and extreme by themselves or is the human factor that makes them so? Also, lest be honest here, generally when religion is used a an excuse for war there are always political and economic interests behind.

“Also is it not true that we all pray to the same man, but called by a different man.” On this I agree with you, in fact in my family we joke saing “ Why are we arguing so much if we have the same boss” XD
124 briton (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:16 pm Report abuse
I agree, human free will,
Of course man, is responsible for his actions,
We all know that sooner or later , man will probably wipe its self out,
greed, corruption , incompetence,
So yes you have a point,
But would the man upstairs really just stand by, and let all this human misery, go on and on and on,
Perhaps the world would be a better place without humans,
But from my point of view, [ I hope not] as I like living, and is quite happy,
Just wish their was no bad guys,
But alas we have what we have, and i suppose just have to live with them.

or something like that.
But an interesting reply
125 Ayayay (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:32 pm Report abuse
A really significant portion of the Catholic bible has been scientifically determined to ne faked.
Something like 6 out of 13 letters in the case of one author.
126 agent999 (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
@122 Briton
But we are always being told by our Argentinian friends that it is the British are the biggest killers of innocent men !!!!
127 Elena (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:41 pm Report abuse
Briton :

Well in my religion the same man upstairs chose to be born in extreme poverty given he is king, share its knowledge, bread, teachings, life, and blood, with what we could call even today the undesirables, the sinners of society as well as the rich and powerfull, die a criminal while being innocent just because he saw something precious and worthy of saving in the human race, while respecting totally that same human race free will, enough to give it the opportunity of being good, of being loving by their own will.

But well, I dont think this is a good place to argue this and we more than go out of topic today, so this will be my last post.

greetings and you are welcome ;)
128 briton (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:43 pm Report abuse
129 ChrisR (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 08:48 pm Report abuse
117 briton

No problems my friend, it was as I thought.

130 briton (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 09:00 pm Report abuse
131 HB_BB (#) Feb 12th, 2013 - 10:53 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
132 Ayayay (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 01:42 am Report abuse
Yes, we both like the og Jesus, he was dressed humbly, spoke the commoner's language so they could understand him, was kind and non-judgemental and didn't wear gold-leafed penis heads.
133 Elenaeleainb (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 03:10 am Report abuse
well the uk team keep adding more screen names. i guess that is their competion against the argies.
134 reality check (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 09:50 am Report abuse
What is chritianity anyway? A religion originating in the middle east, adopted by a Roman Emperor and disseminated throughout that empire and all it's successors Does anyone think it is a coincidence that the Roman Catholic faith is administered from Rome?
135 Shed-time (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 01:01 pm Report abuse
@134 (ignoring catholicism-nonsense for a second) Christianity is about following the teachings of jesus i.e. being nice to one another, loving the big G, self-sacrifice, not worshiping things like footballers,iphones or steve jobs, and generally not being a self-serving hypocritical shit (lots fail at this). If only people would follow the simple teachings of jesus and not the pope like tony blair, the world might be a nicer place, eh?

I'm sure even you athiests would agree with the being nice to one another part.
136 reality check (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 02:32 pm Report abuse
Who said I was an atheist, not all people are christian, muslim or Jewish you know, there are other beliefs.

My faith teaches the rule of three. Whatever deed, good or bad, will be returned threefold. So the onus is to strive to do good in whatever you do in life.
137 CaptainSilver (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 03:21 pm Report abuse
They are now advertising this job:
138 ChrisR (#) Feb 13th, 2013 - 04:03 pm Report abuse
135 Shed-time

You are quite correct, even as an atheist I follow the techings of Jesus in how I deal with people but I still employ an eye for and eye for those who hurt memBers of my family. So no turning the other cheek: sorry and not God because he does not exist.

Please answer the question I asked someone else: do you believe Jesus in corporal form ascended into heaven, IN CORPORAL FORM?
139 Elena (#) Feb 14th, 2013 - 02:26 am Report abuse

Hi, if your question was for me but I will try to answer as best as I can if this is really an intellectually motivated question and not an ironic one.

The answer is yes, by Christian/Catholic beliefs, Jesus died and rose from death three days after his death, exactly as prophesied from what we know as the old testament and is part of Jewish tradition. It was also prophesied by Jesus himself when he talked about being capable of raising the temple of Israel from total destruction in three days, by temple he was talking about himself which of course means his body as well. So when he ascended into heaven he indeed was in his corporal form.
140 ChrisR (#) Feb 14th, 2013 - 03:04 pm Report abuse
@139 Elena

Than you very much for answering my question honestly, unlike two of my fellow Brits (Shed-time and Gordo1) who presumable did not want to stick their heads out.

I personally do not even see how this was possible with his body in tow, which had been corrupted for three days and the fact they hadn't invented jet packs by then.

But as I also do not believe in God, you will not be surprised at my answer and I hope and trust that I have not in any way abused or upset you.

Thank you once again.
141 LEPRecon (#) Feb 14th, 2013 - 03:38 pm Report abuse
@140 - ChrisR

I've had indepth discussions with the Padre where I work, and there are various ways of looking at the whole 'Jesus' business.

My belief is that Jesus wasn't the Son of God at all. Jesus was God taking on human form.

My reasoning is quite logical. God is all-powerful, all knowing, invulnerable etc... So how can 'He' truly know what it is like to be mortal? To have human weaknesses and fragility?

So 'He' comes down to earth as a human. Born as a human. Lives as a human. Has all the same strengths and weaknesses as a human. All the same hopes, desires and fears as a human. And dies as a human.

In other words it's a case of walking a mile in someone else's shoes to understand them.

So it actually makes more sense from a mono-thesist point of view, rather than the poly-thesist approach.

By that I mean to worship Jesus as the 'Son of God' is in breach of the 1st commandment.

““You shall have no other gods before me.”

This is an interesting commandment, because it appears that God knows that there are 'other' Gods, but he is to be considered top dog.

But if Jesus is God then the 1st commandment hasn't been broken at all, and the whole father, son and holy ghost makes more sense too.

The 2nd commandment is in direct opposition to the Catholic churches beliefs, so they brazenly changed it in the 1st millenium AD (not actually sure when).

The actual 2nd commandment states:

““You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

The Catholic church re-wrote it so it would make it 'okay' to worship Saints and the Virgin Mary, of which idolotry you can see in any Catholic church.

The 2nd commandment is also why Muslims and Jews don't worship and have idolotry. However the cross is okay to have because it doesn't occur naturally in nature. But having a crucifix (with Jesus nailed to it), does breach the 2nd commandment.
142 ChrisR (#) Feb 14th, 2013 - 08:17 pm Report abuse
141 LEPRecon

OK, let’s look a little further. Does the Padre where you work, who is critical of the RCC changing the commandments, believe the commandments are in fact the word of God?

You see the whole thing springs from Abraham: all three ‘desert’ born religions; Jewish, Christian and Islam are branded with the same terrible dogma.

I was always being told to ‘beware the wrath of God’; God is a mighty God and will kill those who defy him’, etc.

Also, I was born with original sin and as an un-baptised baby; if I died I would never reach heaven. How does this square with ‘God is a loving God’? This is just a trick by the likes of the Padre to ensnare families into ‘signing-up’ to his particular brand of religion. Can ‘believers’ believe that God would abandon a new born or young child, who allegedly He has ‘allowed’ to be born? Remember this is the basis of the RCC resistance to birth control; it takes away the ‘will of God’.

None of the Old Testament can really be taken seriously in my opinion and don’t forget that the New Testament was itself written centuries after the ‘event’ if it ever happened.

I mean, He started with the Garden of Eden, and then He brought the bloody snake in: that was the start of all the problems! :o)

There are literally millions of people who look on God as something to be frightened of or to worry about.

If I am wrong and Jusus (or God, take your pick) came down today he would send ALL the Popes, Padres, Bishops, Holy-Joes of America and probably even the Islamists for ballsing it all up, straight to Hades, passing Pergatory on the way.

No, there is no such thing as God, and I feel much better for it. I intend to be cremated in Uruguay when the time comes, but on the urn I shall have engraved “The final disappointment”.

143 LEPRecon (#) Feb 14th, 2013 - 09:26 pm Report abuse
Actually he does.

I am more skeptical. The commandments, like the Bible, were written by men, who have their own political beliefs that they were trying to get people to conform to (and still are).

The New Testament is generally more civilised in its interpretations than the Old Testament, and contradicts it on several occasions.

Since the New Testament is based on the words of Jesus, who I believe was God trying to understand what is was like to be human, it takes precedence over the Old Testament.

However, both Testaments are people trying to define God, none of them can be considered Gospel (or the words of God) because they have been copied and translate over the years, some of the 'books' written over a century after the events, using the tales passed by word of mouth, as you so rightly state.

The Padre where I work is 'cool'. A man very sure in his beliefs (such as I am), and because of that surety he is willing to accept and acknowledge other people's points of view.

Those who use religion as an excuse to spout hatred don't truly believe, especially those who refuse to see 'both sides' of the argument.

I believe in God, I believe in Darwins theory of evolution, I believe in Science. All of these things go hand in hand and do not oppose each other.

Just like I believe that true goodness will be rewarded regardless of whether you are religious or an atheist. Goodness, mercy and forgiveness are things for use all to aspire to regardless of beliefs.

Those who profess to believe in God and commit crimes and atrocities in his name will be punished no matter how much they pray, unless they truly repent and don't just say a few 'Hail Mary's'.

And if I'm wrong and God doesn't exist, well I suppose you'll never get the chance to say 'I told you so!' ;D

The one 'religion' I have a problem with is Catholism. I was raised a Catholic and physically abused by Priests and Nuns as a child. These are not true believers, they are hypocrits.
144 brit abroad (#) Feb 15th, 2013 - 01:31 am Report abuse
2013 and we are still talking about Gods and religion???!!!!

“if triangles had gods, they would have three sides”

Wake up people! The jewish, christian, muslim, buddist, hindu (etc) religions and all their idiot followers are nothing but a bunch of blind fools, trying to hang on to a man created idea (and not a very good one), which by the hour loses further credability to free-thinkers and science!
145 Elena (#) Feb 15th, 2013 - 02:12 am Report abuse

Its ok, I thought it had something to do with that, and for me is fine, I would just question and ask for respect to the spirituality and beliefs of ppl like me. As Thomas Aquinas used to say:“ faith comes before reason” and by faith he was talking about the personal belief in the existence or not existence of God. If you aks all I can do is show you our understanding of God, our spiritual beliefs and sometimes physical evidence but the choice will always be just yours at the end and I am fine with that.


I believe in everything you said about Christ being God in human form living the live of a normal human being, he on earth was truly a man, truly a king and truly a God, and by not means do we, in the Catholic Church believe he was a God separated from God father or God Holy spirit. So no, we aren´t politheist, we just understand God in a different manner.

If you ask me, I just think we human beings still have much to learn about God as our actual understanding of him is still too limited IMO, that is why I think it´s very valuable the point of view from other religions that have their own understanding of God, In Catholicism we say sometimes “The name of God is Love” if you feel and give love you are in the process of knowing God. The Virgin Mary, in this instance, is an excelent model on how human beings can accept, Love and understand God back.

Now about the Catholic Church, I am part of it, I have come to understand it a little, I WILL defend it, but this doesn´t mean I dont understand it´s defects , I think it DOES deserve to be questioned when it has to be, because even if it has profound spiritual atributes it still is being run by humans and humans are all fragil, fallible, quick to judge, and proud. So being questioned and critisized can be a good thing for it if undesirable at first :). At the end of the day, I can get angry at the servants, but that doesn´t mean I will get angry with God or at all he has given us.
146 ChrisR (#) Feb 15th, 2013 - 03:35 pm Report abuse
145 Elena

I do have a problem giving respect to a faith based belief society if only because they are (generally) disrespectful of others, particularly atheists.

‘Bongo’ one of the western posters stated that (more or less) that atheists did not believe because they have no brain. Or no-one could find a brain or something of the sort.

The laugh of this of course is that he / she is happy NOT to question religion but accept it ‘on faith’ when to even the slightest of inspections it is obvious that it has been hijacked by greedy and avaricious people for THEIR benefit: power over others or even money for themselves when you look at the born again industry in America. TV evangelists keep pushing and pushing for you to send money NOW in Jesus’ name, these people are millionaires and fly around in private jets and yet the deluded fools send money.

“but that doesn´t mean I will get angry with God or at all he has given us” is to me, to miss what has really happened. Every specimen of life on the planet has grown out of the primordial soup. No seven day wonder about it. What we have now is what has been developed by US, particularly engineers and scientists. This continues to be the case.

I suspect now that you are going to tell me that God made the soup: I have an answer to that as well and we can keep going further back in time until the point where ALL the mass in the universe was compressed onto an infinitesimally small point at the instant the big bang happened.

The you will ask me what happened before that and the answer is very simple. No-one knows BUT the answer will eventually come from science, not the mumbo-jumbo of religion.
147 Elena (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 12:43 am Report abuse
Well, curiously enough I find tv Evangelist equally bothersome especially for the same reasons you find them that way. But then again, I don´t have to deal with them on a daily basis because in my country that isn´t allowed, any religious program that wishes to be on air must first get the State permission and for that they must show content, motive,etc , now that I think about it, this may not be such a bad thing after all XD. And we don´t have that much TV Evangelist´s either, just some Protestant churches of different groups , a Jewish community,and the Catholic community that is the more large.

Now I will be honest, this crazzy belief about religion in general being disrespecful or agaist Science had always seem to me totally out of place, and a lie or exaggeration at the worst times. I wen´t to catholic as well as state schools, and here there was everything from evolution, Physics Chemistry Mathematics,Sociology, Psicology, Philosophy, literature etc.most of them have programs for the students to go and study abroad at different institutions that can or not being religious, and In fact it was a religious group, the Jesuits, that founded one of the most older universities in my country some 500 years ago. So I think you can get a picture on how I can find the prejudice, because it is, of religious ppl not believing in “evolution”, being ridiculous at best and infantile or just plain ignorant at worst, don´t take this personally, but I really feel that way with this so common prejudice.

Now about Agnostic or Atheist, as I already told you, I don´t have a problem respecting their POV, it just that for me, and maybe I am being too sensitive, sometimes it seems as if the existence of religious ppl itself were to them an insult given the vitrolic or sometimes, just hostile way some ppl react to religious ppl or religious news in general , but mind you, that is just me.
148 brit abroad (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 02:47 am Report abuse

do you believe in a supreme being, a maker of all things, a God?
149 Elena (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 06:20 am Report abuse
Yes, I do, I am catholic.
150 CaptainSilver (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 10:59 am Report abuse
Rather than continue to believe in the supernatural which has brought nothing but pain and suffering to the world maybe its time to move on in the light of the scientific evidence to this:

Just imagine...
151 ChrisR (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 10:59 am Report abuse
149 Elena

It is good to see a balanced response from a RC, they so often believe the dogma of the church at the expense of reason.

Please tell me if you believe in the literal word of the bible?
152 DanyBerger (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 12:18 pm Report abuse
Jesus, he knows me

Touch the screen, touch the screen...
153 Elena (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 01:29 pm Report abuse
150 Look at second paragraph of of 147 if you like please ,or well, in short, I like Science to explain things but I don´t consider it a panacea, or anything of the like, it has it´s limitations, its good and bad things, just like human beings, also, it has brough to humans great suffering as well as good things.

151 What word exactly?, from the Old testament?, the new one?, the prophets?, the Apostles?, the revelation(Apocalipsis)? Some of the language is a metaphoric one mean to explain spiritual or complicated truths and another are warnings, but then again, you really aren´t that interested in that isn´t it?

I think I am done here already, when we begin with the ironic questions it becomes a closed, sterile argument, not mean or worth to be taken seriously.
154 ChrisR (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 03:50 pm Report abuse
153 Elena

Thankyou for your forebearance, you are a credit to the RCC.

Your level headed approach to the bible, in its entirity, contrasts with that of the American bible thumpers who believe EVERY word is the word of God is a model that others should follow.

Goodbye. :o)
155 Elena (#) Feb 16th, 2013 - 04:59 pm Report abuse
It´s ok :)

And thanks, but this isn´t just me, I must say , reading the bible isn´t easy,in general we are teach in catechism this, and are warned about understanding a literal meaning of parts of the Bible that are mean to be understood as parables like “the prodigal son” for example , from those who are dogmas of faith or sacraments, like the new commandment “Love one another like I have loved you” by Jesus Christ, but we are told to live those dogmas and sacraments rather than talk about them because it holds more meaning spiritually.

bye : o )

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