Thursday, February 21st 2013 - 00:24 UTC

Pinochet generals and ministers incognito and “non official” visits to UK

The fluid relation between Pinochet’s regime in Chile and the UK following Margaret Thatcher’s victory in 1979 is not nothing new, however declassified British documents of the time to which BBC World had access, reveal the intensity of those links in defence and political issues, including in March/April 1982 when the Argentine military invasion of the Falkland Islands.

Sale of arms and military equipment to Chile (HMS Norfolk)

General Matthei thirty years ago went shopping in London for books (and spares for the Hawker Hunters)

“This is a private visit, as a civilian, to buy a few books at Foyles and visit some friends in London from the time I was Air Force attaché” said in February 1982 General Fernando Matthei, commander of the Chilean Air Force and member of the military Junta.

However Matthei also mentioned, besides his ‘official’ visit that he expected to meet with Ministry of Defence officials to talk about the coming maintenance and upkeep of the Hunter fighters. But this was top secret: no word about it was to be mentioned. (Hawker Hunters were used by the Chilean Air Force to bomb the presidential palace in September 1973 when the coup)

The only ones aware of Matthei’s real mission in London were the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office which had received a confidential report anticipating the visit from the British ambassador in Santiago, as recorded in a recently declassified report from the UK government.

In 1980 and a few months after taking office PM Margaret Thatcher lifted the arms blockade on Chile which had been effective since the beginning of the Pinochet regime.

“The arrival of Thatcher to office marked a fundamental change in relations between Chile and the UK”, explains Uruguayan born Professor Francisco Panizza who currently teaches at the London School of Economics and is an expert in Latinamerican affairs.

Although officially the government of PM Thatcher tried a low profile for its good relations with the regime of General Pinochet, not only did they exist and flourish but resulted in several business deals.

Since the lifting of the embargo in 1980 to the end of April 1982, Chile had purchased in the UK arms and equipment for £ 21 million, which would be equivalent nowadays to £ 110 million or 160 million dollars. This included vessels, aircraft, guns and communication equipments among other items, but transactions were kept in the utmost reserve.

But yes they remained recorded in the secret archives some of them now declassified and to which the BBC World had access.

One of the vessels that left the UK at the end of March was turned back in support of the Falklands conflict which broke out two weeks after the vessel took to sea.

The sale of the second vessel took place 6 April four days after the landing of Argentine troops in the Falklands. (HMS Norfolk later “Capitan Prat” )

“The conflict helped to consolidate certain affinities and common interests, which were evident between both countries’ governments”, added Panizza.

Chile was the leading strategic ally of the UK in the recovery of the South Atlantic Islands and Matthei was one of the main interlocutors.

“I decided to talk to the English but they took the initiative. At that time a Commander Sidney Edwards arrived in Chile and we negotiated the delivery of aircraft, anti aircraft missiles, and radars in exchange for information. (…) We supported them with constant monitoring, radar and electronic listening devices” revealed Matthei in an interview back in 2005.

But what he did not say was that discussions had been going on for a long time, as the declassified documents show.

A month and a half before the war between Argentina and UK broke out, the Chilean embassy informed the Foreign Office details of Matthei’s visit: flight number, hotel booking and the time he planed to spend in London, from February 21 to 26.

“As a member of the Junta in Chile, General Maitthei is a very controversial figure. Despite his visit is not official we can’t be sure it doesn’t become public. If that happens any meeting with top officials from the cabinet will no doubt be strongly criticized by the human rights groupings”, warns a confidential memo from the Foreign Office in 1982.

Instructions were straight and clear: no secretary, minister or high ranking officer from government could participate in social activities or meetings with Matthei.

“However, the participation of second ranking officers from the Ministry of Defence or high ranking military officers to discuss defence sales must not be objected”, cautioned the memo.

“The British government has always been quite reluctant to mix economic with political relations. What matters are interests not ideologies” Panizza told BBC.

However Matthei was not the first Chilean official to visit incognito the UK.

“The position is similar to that of past visits to London by General Cesar Benavides, former Defence minister and now member of the Junta (1981/1983), and I believe that of Admiral (Jose) Merino who also was in London, which I think took place before I took my post”, concluded the confidential report from the British ambassador in Chile to the Foreign Office.

That means, Matthei was at least the third member of the Military Junta to have visited the UK as active member of the Chilean de facto government led by General Pinochet. But the truth is that the record on Pinochet regime top officials visits goes back quite a bit.

In effect by July 1977, under Labour PM James Callaghan, four ministers from the Pinochet regime had been in the UK on ‘private visits’ according to a Foreign Office restricted document from the time.

Sergio Fernandez, Labour minister spent two days in mid February. Foreign Affairs minister Admiral Patricio Carvajal visited London from March 3 to 8 on his return from a meeting in Geneva.

Another cabinet member who stopped by at London after a conference in Paris was Mining minister Enrique Valenzuela. At the time the English capital was no calling point for any commercial or private flight link to Chile.

But the most controversial of all visits was that of Finance minister Sergio Castro, who was in London from 29 June to 3 July, in search of investors interested in putting their money in a buoyant and neo-liberal country in the end of the world, called Chile.

In the midst of the economic crisis, Castro visited Bonn, Paris, Brussels and London where he met with top CEOs from the banking system and private industry. Even Canning House which is responsible for promoting and strengthening relations between the UK and the Spanish speaking world hosted Castro with a lunch to his honour. “A private” visit but not official, as the Foreign Office would be quick to reply to any questions on the subject.
 

Also in secret the UK hosted visits of Agriculture and Economy ministers from the Pinochet regime.

 

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1 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 12:32 am Report abuse
“In secret”. Only criminals need to do things in secret.
2 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 12:46 am Report abuse
Pinochet was great for Chile it is too bad Argentina just had thugs that kept the status quo in place instead.
Argentina might doing as well as Chile with different Dictators.
3 Orbit (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 01:06 am Report abuse
@1 - so “Secret Santa” is actually a criminal act? I never knew that for sure, but I always suspected there was something odd about it. Now I know.
4 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 01:37 am Report abuse
Platitudinal hyperbolic moralistic relativism. The refuge of the devoid of retort.

Even four year olds understand the difference between harmless lies and major lies for surreptitious collusion.
5 Sergio Vega (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:13 am Report abuse
Our Captain General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte has been the best President of Chile up to Mr. Ptñera presidency....He has changed the fate of our country, freeling us from the comunist people's dictatorship of the traitor and coward Allende....The history will remember him as the greates leader of the Century....
Well done, General Pinochet....we will be grateful for ever....
6 Mario Alejandro (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:15 am
Comment removed by the editor.
7 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:45 am Report abuse
Th enemy of my enemy is my friend?
8 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:48 am Report abuse
@7

Then why all the whinging about Argentina becoming friends with Iran? I don't like their posture against Israel but they are the enemy of our enemies, UK, Europe, and USA. Same concept, stop ululating.
9 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:12 am Report abuse
Didnt know Argentina had any enemies except for those of thier own making. And as for friends who blow up hospitals in BA? Strange bed fellows indeed
10 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 04:59 am Report abuse
@9

Then you are a fool. If you were argentine, but you aren't, so you are simply ignorant.
11 The Chilean perspective (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 05:02 am Report abuse
@3 Orbit
I think it is a crime when everyone agrees to spend 20 bucks on their secret santa presents and some shyster spends $5 and all you get is a cheap Chinese t shirt.
12 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 05:18 am Report abuse
Pinochet was nothing but a murderer and a torturer, turning the national stadium into a concentration camp, cutting off Victor Jara's hands before killing him for singing “wrong” songs. All of you who claim to agree with his actions are nothing but historical waste, old and outdated. ´Luckily, amongst the youth, his name is being spitted at. And for the murderers travelling to the UK, I hope it's a one way ticket.
13 Musky (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 07:58 am Report abuse
@8 Nosebag
That is very true, however Iran is unfriendly to everyone, Argentina is a small fry bad boy making friends with a premier league idiological monster who've already financed/masterminded terror plots in your very own country let allow the rest of the world. CFK has made a friend of a country that does not seek peace and good relations with the rest of the world. One day Iran might well change its spots but not with I'mADinnerJacket in charge, threatening annialation of Israel, the US, the UK and their allies. CFK's timing is all wrong.
14 CJvR (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:16 am Report abuse
As far as ruthless bloody Tyrants go Pinochet doesn't seem too bad. He didn't drag Chile into pointless foreign adventures and he actually restored democratic rule, however unwillingly.
15 Orbit (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:36 am Report abuse
@4 if they can grasp that differential, perhaps you can grasp that making sweeping statements is a fundamentally flawed debating strategy?
16 ElaineB (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 09:21 am Report abuse
You can see how Pinochet polarises opinion even to this day. It is not so clear cut as people are inclined to view history. I doubt anyone living in a true democracy would want to live under the regime of fear Pinochet created. They were terrible times, just as no one in Chile would want to return to the unrest and violence of the past, including the Allende years.

Pinochet did introduce a free market economy and it was not without considerable sacrifice - mostly by the middle-classes - that the country went from crippling, failed economic policies to the stable, growing country it is now. He was a complex and divisive leader. When the country evolved beyond dictatorship they dispensed with him in a democratic way and never looked back.
17 Musky (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:42 am Report abuse
@1 Nosebag
No, states can do their business in secret. If you guys developed a brand new, all singing, all dancing, hovering plane, with stealth mirrors and a dazzleship style under-belly, you do it in secret, you do not need to reveal anything to anyone. the reason for doing things secretly is your perogative, it's where the secrets hide illegal activies, well that is an entirely different matter. Watergate... that was secret and illegal. Enigma code cracking was secret but certainly not illegal... so on and so forth.
18 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 12:46 pm Report abuse
12. You've got to crack some eggs to make an omelet.
If you are Argentinian you have to admit Chile is run far better than your country and if you are Chileno you understand what I am talking about.
Argentina has never had democracy, you have a facade of democracy but the society is too corrupt for it to ever happen without some drastic perhaps draconian measures like Chile went through.

I hope your next ruler, and I use the term ruler when talking about any Bolivarian Socialist country because a President for life is not democracy. BS countries are RULED, they may have elections but they are tainted with payoffs, bribery and outright fraud. Unless and until Argentina gets rid of the endemic corruption it is doomed to a never ending cycle of economic ruin where every generation is poorer than the next.
The Ks are dictators, they have stolen all of the savings and future saving of your country to be kept in power.
I hope this is the end of the line for bad rulers in Argentina but I fear it is not.
19 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 01:58 pm Report abuse
Yes yank. Lets not forget the prime example of one Herr Adolf Hitler who was voted into power by the German electorate
20 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:13 pm Report abuse
@13

The alternative is submitting to the yolk of the EU, US. I'd rather be allied with a country that keeps you neo-colonialists in Europe and North America with a tinge of sweat on your temples.
21 Britworker (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:17 pm Report abuse
@8
Fair comment, so long as you are as happy to share their fate!
22 ChrisR (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:39 pm Report abuse
Pinochet did what he had to do to bring Chile forward.

He also was a friend of Britain in SA when all the other knob heads were backing The Dark Country and THEIR JUNTA.

Am I the only one on here who sees the hypocrisy in this by SA?
23 saphira (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 02:47 pm Report abuse
Does more than one person post as Nostrolldamus the 12th as in post 8 he uses the word ululating but in post20 he makes a basic mistake over the word Yoke ?
24 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
@23 No he just pululates in Mendoza. Not good for his health
25 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:17 pm Report abuse
18
I'm neither. And I strongly disagree with you that torture and murder is needed to bring a nation forward. That's only by your standards.
Every SA nation today has elections that are far more democratic than that of USA. As I told your countryman Poppy, USA is one of the few nations that doesn't allow observers in under election in quite a few states. And it's the only nation that I know of where you can get elected President without achieving the majority of the votes.
You can say CFK got rich during her time as President, and that may be right. But in USA you could never become a President if you aren't rich to start with.
In that sense, Argentina is far more democratic than USA, even if both nations allows their President to make a profit out of their office.
Cashing in 2 days after leaving office is merely by-passing the rules, not a bit less corrupted.
26 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:26 pm Report abuse
@23

Some European channel did an expose on the last US elections... The irregularities of voting hours being changed at whim on the day of the vote, the lines lasting hours and hours, the banning of people to vote in cities,they were even sending fake emails telling people to remember to go vote... and the email gave the date of the NEXT DAY!!!!!

Minorities were intimidated by right-wing officials, conservative voters were intimidated by “black nationalists” with weapons...

At the end of the show, they put all those things together and said such an election process would be unnaceptable in places like Belorrusia and Cuba, and that the USA would have to self-imposed sanctions because they met the criteria of ”non-transparent' elections!
27 Condorito (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:26 pm Report abuse
Every cloud has a silver lining. There were silver linings to Allende's cloud as there were silver linings to Pinochet's. Allende gave us Codelco and Pinochet opened up mining. These two deeds were crucial to the success of our mining industry, the motor of the economy.
28 jakesnake (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
The different perspectives of Chileans regarding Pinochet are interesting. My mother-in-law, who came from abject poverty, has nothing but great things to say about him because, as far as she's concerned, Pinocho provided a free house to her and her family (after living in media agua for 5 years with communal toilets and communal water) and you could walk the streets (as long as it was before 10 PM) with no worries of violent crime being perpetrated on you.
29 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:45 pm Report abuse
28
That doesn't excuse murder and torture.

A general question, do you people think that murder and torture is ok as long as it doesn't affect you or your family?
30 jakesnake (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 03:50 pm Report abuse
@29 Wow, the way you jump to conclusions is astonishing. I simply presented the perspective of a Chilena. Help me understand where I defended Pinocho, excused his murder and torture, or anything else about him. Please help me understand, where, in my post I stated anything like that. Feel free to provide as much detail in your response as possible.

I can only surmise from your knee-jerk response that you're not particularly bright.
31 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 04:01 pm Report abuse
30
The question was general, as I wrote.
What doesn't excuse murder and torture is building a society that provides free housing and being able to walk the streets without fear for crimes. Actually, there is nothing at all that excuses murder and torture, regardless of how any “Chilena” could have percepted things.
32 ElaineB (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 04:02 pm Report abuse
@30. Your mother-in-law is a prime example of why Pinochet believed he would never be voted out in a free election. If you were very poor, or very rich, or in a favoured position, life was pretty good and secure. However, there was a huge section that suffered a great deal under Pinochet. Their stories are tragic.

I would not want to live under an oppressive regime. One that intimidated and persecutes anyone questioning government. Chileans were evolved enough to understand that they did not have to return to the violence and upheaval of the past if they wanted a democracy.

I agree Pinochet put Chile on the road to economic stability but it was not without a huge price to pay and he most certainly did not do it alone. That honour goes to the Chilean people that made it happen through hard work and making sacrifices.
33 Anbar (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 05:17 pm Report abuse
“”“Platitudinal hyperbolic moralistic relativism. The refuge of the devoid of retort.”“”“

OR....the translation into English...

”Desperately Insecure about my Intelligence”

you are SO SO desperate to appear to be intelligent, yet you cant see that making verbose statements does NOT equate to intelligence.... and you can never seem to sway anybody's opinion either...

which suggest a singular lack of both intelligence and achievement.

oh ek ; you are CFK's speech writer!!!!

(roflmfao)
34 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 06:10 pm Report abuse
Torture is never acceptable be it in Guantanamo, Santiago or Montevideo. Its a degradation of humanity both by the administrator and the victim. But where is the line between a tough interogation and torture to be drawn? Difficult I think
But if you have commited terrorists as in the 9/11 attack, the Madrid or London bombings where do you draw the line?
Interested to hear opinions
35 reality check (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
You don't. If some terorist has planted a bomb that will kill my family or anothers family, you make him tell you where it is and I do not care how you do it. Human rights, do not include the right to murder, maim and blind with impunity.
36 redpoll (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 06:51 pm Report abuse
@35 I think I would agree but would like to hear other opinions. Why do we have to support this type of person for a life sentence in jail? String em up and be done with em
37 The Cestrian (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 07:12 pm Report abuse
Chile and the UK has always got on well. Great friends of the UK. Good on them. Hopefully when the RG's try and attack them at some point the UK will come to Chile's aid - thats if they need our help that is.

they'll probably turn out the Boy Scouts and whup the RG's arses.
38 An Argie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:13 pm Report abuse
@37 The.....
...... you are saying that the UK established diplomatic relations with Argentina after the 1982 invasion to start another war?
not too smart....
UK PM Ca-Moron keeps complaining about the “argentine goverment harassment''.....that's happen any time the UK establish diplomatic relations with the enemy...
are you learning now?
Argentina is anti-british
sooner or later the british residing in Argentina will feel the same
”harassment“ the ”islanders” are complaining about?
I hear your answer: .....
what to do.....what to do....
39 reality check (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:16 pm Report abuse
They were up for it in 82, but chose the softer option, us!

What a bunch of tossers, fancy thinking we would not fight back.

Got to go down as on of the all time f...k ups!
40 Condorito (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:20 pm Report abuse
31 Stevie
In a perfect world nothing excuses murder and torture.
In reality they can often be justified as the lesser of two evils.

Chile has the highest life expectancy and lowest infant mortality rate in South America thanks to the economic prosperity that germinated during the dictatorship. That means tens of thousands of children have lived that would have died had we remained subject to communist poverty.

A general question, do you people think that the poverty that kills babies is ok as long as it doesn't affect you or your family?
41 Joe Bloggs (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:30 pm Report abuse
1 Nostrolldamus
“In secret”. Only criminals need to do things in secret.

What's your ethnic origin?

Chuckle chuckle
42 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 08:47 pm Report abuse
Condorito
The “greater evil” is in the eye of the beholder. As Gandhi said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Although I strongly disagree with your statement, it doesn't surprise me people on this site thinks like that.

And poverty in SA has never been lower than it is today, matter of fact, improvements started 2002 and onwards.
43 Condorito (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 09:23 pm Report abuse
Stevie,
I am not suggesting an eye for an eye. I am asking you which is the greater evil, the loss of the unfortunate souls who would impose poverty and misery upon us, or the loss of 1000s of children every year to poverty.

I agree that poverty in SA has never been lower, which we should all be thankful for. In Chile the economic corner was turned in 1974 when our share of the world's known copper reserves jumped from 7% to 30%.
44 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 09:41 pm Report abuse
Condorito
The SA dictatorships didn't murder people who would've imposed nothing on you, the murdered civilians for having the “wrong” ideology.
Matter of fact, those who fought against the dictatorships are in many cases the same people that are reducing poverty today, Brazil and Uruguay comes to mind.
Point is, when these dictators murder people, these people have families. And by your own standards, a greater evil has given them the right to murder and torture back.
45 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 09:44 pm Report abuse
42. Poverty figures in Bolivarian Socialist countries is suspect at best. The only people getting rich in those countries are the rulers and their cronies.
Argentina is probably the best example. According to the gov't you can eat for U$0.78/day and your are not considered in “poverty”
Yeah ok
46 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 09:55 pm Report abuse
45
Argentina Bolivarian?
This is endless! Hahaha!
47 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:09 pm Report abuse
Argentina is aligned with Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador so yeah I group them with the filthy socialists.
Looks to Chavez to see what CFK will do next
I hear 3 different exchange rates
yeah it worked so well in Venezuela
48 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:13 pm Report abuse
Ahh, so you group them with Bolivia, Venezuela and Ecuador, hence they must be Bolivarian. But of course! Hahahaha!
49 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:14 pm Report abuse
Well that is what they call themselves is it not?

Stevie you remind me of someone, I just can't place it? Mayhaps you have posted before under another nick?
50 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:22 pm Report abuse
No, it is not.

You asking me if you can place me? How would I know?
Why would I post under another nick, it's not like I'm hiding anything.
You must confuse me with Chris and Conqueror, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
51 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:32 pm Report abuse
No, no you remind me of someone. I'll give it a few more posts and it will come to me.
So do you really want to discuss poverty in Argentina or not? It is a fascinating topic. How does one eat on U$0.78 a day? Does garbage count?
52 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:37 pm Report abuse
I just let you do the talking and point out the funny parts, deal?
53 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:44 pm Report abuse
Nah, but here is a link to ALBA since you don't know much about it. Take a look at the graphic about 1/2 down to see where CFK is getting the ideas that is ruining the country.

www.americasquarterly.org/hirst/article

Viva Price Controls! Viva Devaluation! Viva Hyperinflation!
54 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 10:55 pm Report abuse
yankeeboy
I can assure you that your FTAA is the direct source of the financial crisis that we live today. The free market is totally out of control and this affects the employment as companies are heading for greener grass, mainly in Asia.
I don't believe in a free market, as it is dependant on people consuming more and more, something that isn't bearable in the long run, for obvious reasons.
Now, scroll up a bit in your own link and try to find Argentina in ALBA.
55 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 11:04 pm Report abuse
As I said “I” put Argentina with ALBA, CKF has aligned with those countries and has put in place most of their ideals which is clearly ruining the country.

You blame the last crisis on Free Trade? That is frankly astonishing! You know nothing about history or economics, nothing at all.

Tell me, if you can, who's population is better off, South Korea or North Korea and why?
56 Stevie (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 11:24 pm Report abuse
yankeeboy
South Korea vs North Korea? There are nuances, you know.
And what has those nations to do with ALBA? Or Argentina? You are all over the place. Please develop, I'm sure I'll get a laugh out of this one too.
57 yankeeboy (#) Feb 21st, 2013 - 11:45 pm Report abuse
Um, it's valid point since you brought up the difference between an opened and closed market.
Glad to discuss Argentina vs Chile if you don't know anything else.
Or how free trade caused the last economic downturn, that's a doozy and I would love to hear the rationale on that!
I bet you think Free trade is causing Argentina's current dilemma too.
58 Stevie (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 12:04 am Report abuse
I believe Argentina has an issue with inflation, other than that, their problems can be summed up on this website.
Free trade means all countries involved open up their borders for external goods. These goods are manufactered in one place, only to be transported back and forth to the expense of the environment. Furthermore, companies seek to maximize their profits, meaning lowering the salaries. This shows in companies moving abroad to countries where the salaries are extremely low, meaning people loosing their jobs on one side and people working for alms on the other. The only ones making profit are the companies.
There are even more backsides. Few countries are interested in opening up their agricultural market for fear of loosing the backbone of their local production. This results in a selective free market where the technological advanced nations are free to trade their goods, while the agricultural nations can't compete in any way.
All in all, free market is bad, selective free market is worse.
59 ajoknoblauch (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:40 am Report abuse
Collaborating with a thug like Pinochet is disgraceful but, in thuggery, nobody exceeded Massera and Videla.
60 Lord Ton (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:44 am Report abuse
falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/silly-season/

:-)
61 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:59 am Report abuse
Stevie, It is clear you don't understand even the basics of business or economics. I think you would be hard pressed to find any legitimate scholar that would agree with anything you posted.

As a start watch this and get back with me:
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D236E0348A5041B
and then this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=urSe86zpLI4

You are exactly why Argentina economy fails every decade like clockwork.
62 Stevie (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 02:12 am Report abuse
The system of Fiat currency that you profess is failed, it's taking it's last breaths as we speak. You better come up with ideas newer than those from Adam Smith. After all, lot of water has passed under the bridges since.
Personally, I'd love for your country to continue on that track, the rest of us can always use you as an example as how to not use the resources mother earth is providing.
All I can agree with you is that your method is the best one to make money in a short term. But you are blind to the conscequences, the impact it has on environment and those people that the market swallows.
Keep your ideas and your youtube-economy.
I told you I would get a laugh out of this.
63 Shed-time (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 08:17 am Report abuse
@62 Yeh, let's all return to the 'Gold Standard' where Argentina will by definition have absolutely naught in its coffers. Furthermore, ignoramuses like yourself who don't know about the many people and traditions of economic thought that appeared after Adam Smith produced his doctrine (Austrian School, Chicago School, Keynes) should probably keep their mouths shut as it makes you look less ignorant.

Keep laughing, while your own country descends into a big black hole.
64 Stevie (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 09:39 am Report abuse
63
My own country? Which one is that Shed-time? Stevie-land? Tell you what, should Stevie-land descend into a “big black hole”, the rest of the world will taag along. You see, your economy is like your astronomy, a metaphor.
65 reality check (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 09:58 am Report abuse
I think his metaphor refers to the kind of big black hole you dig yourself into, not the astrophysical type.

Keep digging.
66 ChrisR (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 10:37 am Report abuse
As you see guys this Stevie 'Citizen of the Planet' is a real class act in the cerebellum stakes: I think he fell at the first fence.

Oh well, it couldn’t have happened to a nicer person: NOT.
67 Martin Woodhead (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 11:45 am Report abuse
Pinochet was murderous tryant lite 3000 dead rather than 30000 and managed to make an economy the “cure” was probably worse than the disease though.
he was definitly on the UK's side as Chile was next on the Juntas game of risk and that war would have been even bloodier.
68 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:02 pm Report abuse
Stevie, As they say ignorance is bliss so you must be one happy fella!
So your solution, much like CFK is trying to do right now with Iran, is to barter? So how many Tons of Soy is worth a ship of Oil?

You've got a lot way to go before I take anything you say seriously. At this point I think my cat is smarter than you are.
69 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:27 pm Report abuse
Free trade is not free. That is why Argentina wants nothing to do with it.
70 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 01:55 pm Report abuse
69. So you want costly Trade? You are as ignorant as Stevie about economics stick to language and work in a call center or hotel.

You are one of the reasons your country fails every decade.

Does Argentina import their Economic Teachers from North Korea? It is hard to believe the whole country is as ignorant as the posters on this board.
71 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 02:51 pm Report abuse
@70

I know you can't be serious since all you want is to insult Argentina and score “points” with the argies here (that is your life essentially), but tell me...

Why would be sign any treaties with YOU or the Europeans when you propose 0% barriers for your cars, clothes, and cell phones, but 200% barriers for agricultural products, organics, steel, and refined products?

You would not sign such a deal, why should we?
72 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
Where are you coming up with 200% AFTER an FTA? If you look at the agreement we have with Chile they pay 0% imports for fruit.
0%
www.fas.usda.gov/info/factsheets/ChileFTA/fruits.html

It is unfortunate for Argentina that you're lazy and can't make stuff as cheaply as we can but that is your own fault. If you were productive you wouldn't be having nearly as many economic problems as you have had in the last 75yrs.
73 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 03:27 pm Report abuse
blah blah blah, always insulting us. See I give you the chance to act “grow up” and you mess it up. Then you cry when I troll the lot of you (with facts, I don't lie about the news that I post).

Look up the CATO institute. They are a completely laissez-faire institute.

They admitted that the USA and Europe, when taking all the farmer subsidy money and bills, the Ethanol lobby, the “health” restrictions, and the restrictions on supply, that food prices are almost 200% higher than they should be. People are starving in Africa because Europe and the USA have made corn so expensive by using for other purposes, and restricting the growth of wheat in favor of other crops (Argentina was also criticized for helping in the high prices by cutting wheat hectares).

There is no free trade for Argentina. Chile and Colombia can sign them because they don't grow anything, except for coffee and chile pears and grapes.

Those are peanuts vs the big crops corn/soy/wheat/oats/barley/sorghum. That's why we don't sign anything, we drop our tariffs and you drop none. Forget it.
74 Escoses Doido (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 03:32 pm Report abuse
Sixteen days to go-ho............
75 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 03:52 pm Report abuse
Toby, Did I not just prove that Free Trade is exactly as the name implies. Unless we consider a country is dumping we have pretty open trade. Look at the Trillions we import every year. It is really undeniable.

Your increased tariffs is killing your economy all these restrictions your President is making trying to control the price of food through import/export restrictions has KILLED the farmers. It has has made so many imbalances it will take a decade to fix once she is gone. The cattle stock is decimated, in a couple years you'll be importing beef. You may have to import wheat this year for gosh sakes! The first time EVER! In a country that is a net exporter of Ag products. It is hard to destroy a business with that much going for it but she did it.
Argentina is know for poor products, overpaid and lazy employees. You have only learned to export with the help of Gen modified Soy/Corn before that existed you always had trade imbalances.
I don't see how you'll ever fix it,
It is beyond repair with the current thinking of your Society.
76 Nostrolldamus the 12th (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 04:00 pm Report abuse
You proved? That's all one needs? Your godly approval? hahahaha, what a megalomaniac.

And why would we trust the USA to determine what is dumping or not? Please you have such a completely quixotic view of yourself. Your country cheats and steals in trade like all others.

You import trillions per year because you have 330 million people. That is no accomplishment.

I guess we had trade imbalances in the 1880s- 1940s when we amassed the world's biggest gold reserves and the Argentine peso was the 4th most trade currency... you fool lol.
77 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 04:05 pm Report abuse
Idiot, the USA and UK was running your country up to Peron that is why it was run right but once the Rgs got control it all went into the toilet!

We don't determine the dumping the WTO does which btw is another case you will lose shortly.
78 An Argie (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 06:17 pm Report abuse
@77
“the USA and UK was running your country up to Peron tha is why it was run right”
explain how.
79 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 08:15 pm Report abuse
78. Google Standard Oil Argentina and let me know what you find. If you are really an Rg you'd already know all about it.
80 Condorito (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
NT 12

“Chile and Colombia can sign them because they don't grow anything, except for coffee and chile pears and grapes. Those are peanuts vs the big crops corn/soy/wheat/oats/barley/sorghum. ”

Really?
Well our peanuts exports are worth USD 25 billion.
$95 of our exports go to countries with which we have a FTA.

You often seem to be under some illusion that Argentina has a sophisticated economy that would suffer from FTAs. You are basically a farming economy.
81 redpoll (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 09:15 pm Report abuse
Dont encourage snotty. Hes presently out, trying to find more paper tissues for his runny nose at the super so may not be back for a while
82 yankeeboy (#) Feb 22nd, 2013 - 10:46 pm Report abuse
80. He has no idea how big the world is and how much further along we are in development than his unsanitary villa outside of Mendoza.
Earlier in the year he was crowing that “ I have a/c in every room of my house”
pathetic
Too bad that A/C needs electricity to work though...ah there's the rub
83 ChrisR (#) Feb 23rd, 2013 - 02:46 pm Report abuse
82 yankeeboy

No need for electricity for the AC at Nozzys: he has the sort that cools magically using a turncatch to work it.

It's called a window.

LOLs
84 row82 (#) Feb 26th, 2013 - 11:41 pm Report abuse
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