Thursday, March 28th 2013 - 09:56 UTC

Argentina prepared to offer suing ‘vulture funds’ a 25-year bond, says Ambito

Argentina plans to offer suing “holdout” creditors a 25-year bond equal to the face value of their debt when the country defaulted in 2002, local financial daily Ambito Financiero reported on Wednesday.

US Judge Thomas Griesa ordered Argentina in November to pay into escrow the full 1.33 billion owed to the holdouts

The country faces a Friday deadline to respond to a US appeals court order that it provide an alternative payment formula to resolve litigation with creditors seeking to be paid 1.33 billion in capital and interest on defaulted bonds.

The government of President Cristina Fernandez which calls hedge funds ‘vulture funds’, has said it cannot offer the holdouts more than what was received by bondholders, who entered debt swaps in 2005 and 2010, must submit a formula and a timetable for carrying it out this week.

If the court does not accept the proposal, investors fear Argentina could default on 24 billion in restructured debt.

Ambito Financiero's report on Wednesday said the government's offer would propose giving the holdouts Par bonds equal in value to the bonds they have sued over at the time of the world's biggest sovereign default.

The newspaper said that would be equivalent to about 450 million dollars in 2038 Par bonds.

Holdouts would be offered Discount bonds, which carry a steep haircut, in exchange for the rest of the money demanded by the creditors in accumulated unpaid interest.

In the 2010 swap, the terms of which Argentina says, by law, it cannot improve for the holdouts, a Discount bond maturing in 2033 and representing 33.7% of the face value of the defaulted debt was offered to institutional investors.

Par bonds for the full face value were also offered in the exchange three years ago, but only to small-scale investors wanting to tender a maximum of 50,000 dollars or 40,000 Euros in bonds.

Investors are closely watching the case, which is led by Elliott Management affiliate NML Capital Ltd and Aurelius Capital Management, because it has raised fears of a default on the restructured debt that was issued during the debt swaps.

Concerns ballooned after US Judge Thomas Griesa ordered Argentina in November to pay into escrow the full 1.33 billion owed to the holdouts, an order Argentina immediately appealed.

Griesa's payment order followed his February 2012 ruling, upheld on appeal, which found Argentina violated the equal treatment provision in the bond contract known as pari passu. His order is meant to block any payment to exchange bondholders if full payment is not also given to the holdouts.

Argentina has said it cannot abide by the court order to pay the holdouts in full, meaning a rejection of the payment proposal it submits this week would increase the chances for a default on the restructured bonds.

A decision by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Tuesday to deny Argentina's request for a rehearing on the underlying issues in this case hit the country's asset prices on Wednesday.

“The development is a negative event for Argentine sovereign credit as it suggests little sympathy from the court to the arguments Argentina uses in its defence against holdout creditors in the 'pari passu' litigation,” J.P.Morgan said in a briefing note to clients.

“The timing of the decision to deny rehearing can be interpreted as a warning from the court,” it said.
 

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1 Anbar (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 10:23 am Report abuse
“Not one Dollar!”

who said that?
2 screenname (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 11:00 am Report abuse
Why not offer to give the hedge funds the moon in 10 years?

Maybe because they are not stupid.

Please, please, bring on the default.
3 Shed-time (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 11:16 am Report abuse
If I'd just bought some toxic argie-bonds and then gone through all this cr@p taking great risk, why would I then accept another toxic argie-bond with a haircut in exchange?

It's just without logic or reason.
4 v for victory (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 11:43 am Report abuse
@Anbar hehehe yes she did say that didn't she.

Prepare for a spectacular U-turn by the Argentines.
5 yankeeboy (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 11:52 am Report abuse
SCOUTS will not hear the case, CFK has reached the end of the line.
I love watching them squirm
6 andy65 (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 03:04 pm Report abuse
Yes “not one Dollor” let her be reminded.
7 Shed-time (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 04:16 pm Report abuse
did someone say 'not one dollar'? I'm sure someone did.
8 yankeeboy (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 04:29 pm Report abuse
I think she said not one peso... a little less than 1/8 of a U$
9 ChrisR (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 05:22 pm Report abuse
I still cannot call this.

Perhaps I am too wary of the weasels getting some other court to bail them out, just like what happened with the Libertad.

Still, Monday is not far away now, how apt it is April 1st.
10 John Troll the 3rd (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 05:52 pm Report abuse
Argentine scoffs are too subtle for this lot above.

hahahaha
11 yankeeboy (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 05:53 pm Report abuse
CFKs mouth has gotten her into trouble more times than one can count.
12 Conqueror (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 06:15 pm Report abuse
Argieland; Start with US$1.33 billion, in cash, by “next” Friday. You're used to cash in suitcases. Then you can set out your “payment plan” for the other US$98.67 billion. Plus interest. Everything needs to be paid by the end of 2015. Get that population of yours out there and “working”. Shall we explain the concept of “working”? There are “jobs” available on the Falkland Islands. Five pesos a day. Landmine clearance.
13 briton (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
CFK
just pay your debts.
14 golfcronie (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 08:36 pm Report abuse
Quiet tonight chaps, probably cannot find any spin for this, can you imagine in about 10 years from now the FALKLANDS could possibly buy Patagonia, if they all clubbed together, what a thought.
15 reality check (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 08:54 pm Report abuse
Sorry guys, I have often said on here that my grasp of economics is shit. Be honest it is, I have a good income and I am shite at managing it, always have been always will be.

Someone tell me if I got this right, they issued monetary bonds that they can not honour? That I can understand.

Are they saying that they will issue more bonds to replace the useless bonds they previously issued and will pay them off over a 25 year period?

Apologise for not understanding this. One thing I do understand though, is that someone gave real, I stress, real money and want it back.

Anyone explain, in easy language please!
16 slattzzz (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 08:57 pm Report abuse
@15 me to got money ........................drink it
17 golfcronie (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 09:34 pm Report abuse
@15
I can explain. You lend Argentina money say U$D 1.000.000 for a return of 5% over 25 years. They default no money. You lose your money. They offer you terms 5% over 25 Years. Meanwhile inflation is approx 25% per annum. Would you lend them money? You could throw money away if you wish.
18 reality check (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 10:22 pm Report abuse
Simple question, are they pulling the same scam again?
19 Anbar (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 10:43 pm Report abuse
trying to... always trying to... ( a bit like the ThinkoDoverManLuv puppets)
20 yankeeboy (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 10:57 pm Report abuse
18. Since they have a history of defaulting I would say absolutely! They're going to offer bonds at a fraction of thier original value a WAAAY below market rate paid over the next generation.
Would you take it?
Not many would.
US counts will make they pay
The USA govt is about to step in and make it extremely difficult for Argentina to trade to force them to pay the ICSID judgement and these holdout bonds.
How would one pay for the LNG they need if they can't use the U$?
Ships of Soy oil perhaps...yet how does one pay for the tankers?
Hmm
If you don't think we can ask Iran how the oil sales are going...
Or North Korea...
21 reality check (#) Mar 28th, 2013 - 11:56 pm Report abuse
So I got it right, it”s useless. Basically saying, we agree to at you the full value, in 25 years time, maybe!!!!!!!

Oh an fo rget the fact we have not paid you anything in the last decade!

Did I say I was shit with finances? Not that ferkin thick!
22 bushpilot (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 01:12 am Report abuse
“as it suggests little sympathy from the court to the arguments Argentina uses”

The courts don't like the way they were speaking to that other judge about not complying with court orders.
23 reality check (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 02:38 am Report abuse
Do you think that might have something to do with the lawyer telling the judge they were not going to obey the ruling anyway? Not smart, methinks!
24 God.Is.An.Illusion (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 09:43 am Report abuse
Where is THINK??
25 yankeeboy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 10:52 am Report abuse
www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130329/lt-argentina-debt-showdown/?utm_hp_ref=homepage&ir=homepage

President Fernandez and her economic team are proud of sharply reducing the country's foreign debt burden, and never failing to meet payments on the new bonds her government issued in exchange for the defaulted debt. But it still owes tens of billions to many other creditors, and until it settles those debts, its economy will be strangled by punishingly high borrowing costs, Rosner said.

Because of its deadbeat reputation, Argentina has had to look inward, essentially borrowing from its own people, fueling inflation, and trying to centrally manage the increasingly isolated economy by frequently changing the rules for exchanging currency, importing and exporting goods, setting prices and paying taxes.

Increasingly, Argentines are feeling trapped by the government controls, and foreign companies are being scared off.
26 Captain Poppy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 12:02 pm Report abuse
I just read that Yankee.

“Even with the latest tender, Argentina is still around 15 cargoes short of its target of 83 for the year, traders said.”

www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/28/argentina-lng-idUSL5N0CK3WE20130328
27 yankeeboy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 12:24 pm Report abuse
26. They can't afford U$16.50/mmBtu, they don't have the funds and their business are paying 4-6x more for gas than what we pay in the USA!

They are going to have serious cash flow/balance of trade problems this year.
28 Captain Poppy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 12:38 pm Report abuse
Exactly.....I think this is the year itheir economic plans go from a category 4 to a category 5 hurricane.
29 yankeeboy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 12:44 pm Report abuse
I think the way it will play out is:

They default, tell everyone wait a bit until we can figure out how to pay you this is really the NY Court's fault not ours so please give the good and honest people of Argentina some time to pay you.
That will give them through the winter and conserve U$ to pay the fuel bill.
They will devalue after the elections
Then they will take every last U$ in the banking system and replace it with the devalued Peso
Economy gets another sugar high
while they start hyperinflation

This is going to be a big mess for the next gov't o clean up
30 MagnusMaster (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 04:53 pm Report abuse
@29 well that's how the Argentinian political system works. It's designed to cause a mess, let the next government clean it up, and rinse, lather, repeat ad infinitum. Without a new political system, not much will change. The question is: will the Peronist system collapse this time? I don't think so, the people have figured out what the system does but not who created it and who keeps it in place (at least most haven't, or have a vested interest in keeping the system running).
31 Brit Bob (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 08:48 pm Report abuse
'Argentina may default payment of billion dollar debt, response could be 'suicide' to economy'

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/argentina-debt-payment-appeal-could-be-suicide-to-economy_n_2980689.html
32 Liliana (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 08:56 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
33 Captain Poppy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 09:05 pm Report abuse
Yankee I see the rg's are milking the time right to the end.....I say they file at 11:58 PM EST
34 yankeeboy (#) Mar 29th, 2013 - 10:53 pm Report abuse
33. I suppose it is better to wait for the bad news until after the Holiday.
Can you imagine the thought process of someone who lost a court case, the judgement was awarded, then the court asks them to pay and they say yeah sure how about over the next 35 years? Sound ok to you?
These people are deluded.
The egomaniacs has warped their brains.
It is truly flabbergasting
35 Anbar (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 01:27 am Report abuse
what no thinkodover?

golly gosh, where can they be?

----

“Can you imagine the thought process of someone who lost a court case, the judgement was awarded, then the court asks them to pay and they say yeah sure how about over the next 35 years? Sound ok to you?”

we had somebody try that exact same thing in court, or rather in a follow-up for non-payment of the award. Sadly for them the judge had seen them arrive at court in a nice shiney Mercedes - which he ordered impounded on the spot until payment was made.

Sadly CFK & cronies never seem to take their “mercedes” Tango 1 out of the country anymore.

I wonder why?
36 yankeeboy (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 09:19 am Report abuse
They made the offer that was expected and the same one they made in 2010.
Epic Fail
Losers
The judge is gonna be mad...
37 Acchiappaladri (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 11:28 am Report abuse
@36 CONTEMPT OF COURT ???

Just the (final) proof that the Argentine robbery gang would not deserve a due process, down there they don't even know the meaning of “good faith” ... but thanks God the US has a independent, serious, fair federal judiciary ... plenty of defence opportunities given also to the most contumacious criminals.

I trust that eventually the villains will be punished: the questions now ... when? how?
38 yankeeboy (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 12:48 pm Report abuse
37. This isn't the US Court's first time to the Rodeo.
Argentinians are arrogant and stupid and it is a very bad combination that hasn't worked well for them in the past.
As Griesa has said, they have ways to compel the court order.
They may go after Banco Nacion, Rg property that is not considered Embassy property, BCRA funds in NY EU UK or Switzerland. Thare are lots of options.
At some point very soon teh US Gov't will get sick and tired of the games and make their trade impossible, how baout no LNG in winter, seizing ships of Soy, there are lot of things to go after.
And it is all coming to a head now
just let it play out
39 Captain Poppy (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 03:17 pm Report abuse
“Monday morning is going to be a disaster,” Rosner predicted.

news.yahoo.com/argentina-offers-pay-debts-cash-bonds-040817493--finance.html

“This economic starvation ends up, by necessity, with the ultimate cutting of those services — education, police, energy subsidies, transportation subsidies to the provinces, which is going to increase social unrest,” Rosner said. “It's a human tragedy. I'm not understanding why they're fighting this.”
40 Iron Man (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 05:24 pm Report abuse
Oh dear....

www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-30/argentina-one-sixth-bond-offer-seen-as-thumbing-nose-.html
41 Orbit (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 05:50 pm Report abuse
They are offering a new contract to people who have spent 10 years trying to get them to honour an old contract. Why would they suddenly trust them now, particularly on current behaviour?
42 golfcronie (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 06:01 pm Report abuse
Oh dear.....
You don't think that the Agentine Government are SERIOUS do you?
GOOD GOD I think they are.
43 ChrisR (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
41 Orbit

But it's even worse than that!

The 'new' contract is the old contract from 2010.

The cunning stunts claim they cannot alter it because of the original contract requirements that do not expire until Dec '14.

So that's handy eh?
44 Orbit (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 06:55 pm Report abuse
@43 indeed! It's a good thing Mr Singer is so forgiving, bygones be bygones and all that. He's a regular forgive and forget merchant. Actually, I may have that wrong...
45 golfcronie (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 07:17 pm Report abuse
HEY UP ARGIES
Can you lend me U$D 1,000,000 and I promise I will give you back your U$D 1,000,000 plus 25% back in 25 yrs time. I'm waiting for a reply. Bet no takers, not a good deal methinks.I think the International Community will probably feel the same.
46 yankeeboy (#) Mar 30th, 2013 - 07:38 pm Report abuse
www.thestreet.com/story/11883654/1/salmon-argentinas-desperate-exchange-proposal.html

I've been largely sympathetic to Argentina's position in this case all along, but in the wake of the various rulings that have already been handed down, Argentina doesn't really have a legal leg to stand on any more. That's why it's resorting to desperate measures like saying that Elliott is going to make an unconscionable amount of money if it wins: Where legal reasoning has failed, all that's left is an attempt to bypass the law and attempt to scramble onto the moral high ground. The problem, of course, is that it's really hard for the contumacious Argentines to occupy any kind of moral high ground at all, even when their opponent is a notorious vulture fund.

I can smell the desperation from here
47 Shed-time (#) Mar 31st, 2013 - 12:22 am Report abuse
1400% is still less than you'd get from those friendly well meaning old userers at wonga dot com.
48 yankeeboy (#) Mar 31st, 2013 - 10:15 am Report abuse
47. I hate when people complain about interest rates. If they are disclosed and you still choose to move forward with the loan you have no right to complain.
49 Shed-time (#) Mar 31st, 2013 - 08:37 pm Report abuse
@48 I'm sure you get upset when you don't get your pound of flesh either. Next Saturday, when you are reading your Talmud I suggest you read something about Ezekiel and his quite particular and specific views on usury. He was a member of your tribes after all, so you should follow his example.
50 yankeeboy (#) Mar 31st, 2013 - 11:28 pm Report abuse
40. Well that is not racist at all. You are very enlightened.
51 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 08:14 am Report abuse
@50 So let's just look at what you said there, and analyse the two scenarios a little.

a) Condemning the weak minded and desperate to economic misery, and inevitable suicide, through widespread legalised loan-sharking = good for society
b) Suggesting the reading of a passage of a relevant religious text that specifically condemns usury, hence loan-sharking = racism, and bad for society.

Under your logic Jesus was a big fat racist too, when he got upset at the money lenders in the temple. He was just so darned racist about those Pharisees, with all their misery causing.

Well done you, Mr Inconsistent.
52 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 09:57 am Report abuse
Yankee it seems some of them are taking on the tones of the late 1920 and early 1930 nazis of blaming the Jews for every mistake they have made. Either that or it is because of their new alliances with Syria and Iran.
Perhaps they need to understand that lending money is a high rick business, as Argentina proves to the world every day, and that the interest is based on the risk of defaulting. I don't think the RG's understand the time value of money, combined with inflation.
53 ChrisR (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 11:17 am Report abuse
50 yankeeboy

Oh dear!

You have got Shed-time lathered up on his favourite subject: the protestant religion no less.

As an EX-CoE Head Altar Boy, it always confused me when the Rev condemned the Jews for crucifying Jesus. Had he not been crucified or killed in some other manner, how could he have ascended corporately mind you, into ‘heaven’?

Yet the amount of persecution, albeit under the guise of ‘money lending’ at times, throughout the centuries is beyond understanding: the deluded sods wouldn’t HAVE a religion without the Jews.
54 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 11:18 am Report abuse
Shed, You are making yourself look very foolish, you are misinterpreting both the bible passage and my statement.

Cap, Don't forget to throw in the Bolivians and Paraguayans too. The “others” that are ruining Argentina.
55 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 12:32 pm Report abuse
@53 Sure, because there is nothing humanists like more than a society bespoiled by widespread loan-sharking with everyone topping themselves because they 'made a mistake' and signed up to a wanga.com loan only to have their children kicked into the street. How you humanists have no humanity.

If you want to enter into a discussion about how it is contradictory that 'god's chosen people' killed God's key earthly representative, do you not also think it is contradictory that in the 'old testament stories' one diety walking through the garden of eden quite happily with Adam, and another diety took it umbrage at the sight of the first dieties creation and demanded that all boys have their genitals mutilated at birth. Now the USA and Israel are a festival of male genital mutilation, and upon seeing their children are so disgusted at the sight of normality that they get some doctor who has thrown aside his 'Hippocratic oath' in order to slice up the boy's manhood.

Do you not see how the USA (and Israel) routinely protest about genital integrity in women and yet love nothing more than to see a mutilated child? Apparently in the USA the hospitals are encouraged to sell the baby children't offcuts in order to harvest stem cells for Oprah's face cream.

The truth is, and logic suggests, they're not the same god. Human rights associated with bodily integrity are ignored in the USA, and their doctors should all be arrested for damaging children. Finally, when are you humanists going to actually get some humanity?

@54 How could anyone misinterpret your celebration at the thought of debt collectors turning up to people's doors and breaking their legs because they 'made a wrong decisions. Next time you see your Rabbi you should ask him to explain what Ezekiell was saying. He will no doubt look a bit awkward at first, but it's without ambiguity and he'll have no option but to tell you.

In summary, I might be a fool but at least my parents didn't have me mutilated, unlike yours.
56 ChrisR (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 12:56 pm Report abuse
55 Shed-time

I fail to see why I get 'The Sermon On The Mount' from you over my post @53.

Frankly, your diatribe against Jews and the Jewish Faith, as delusional to me as any other 'faith', portrays you as being on the point of becoming unhinged IMO.
57 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 01:03 pm Report abuse
I would think Yankee, if this is all about just a simple misunderstanding of making a mistake, the first act would be to freely admit that mistake, then apoligize and atone. That's what a “humanist” would do, not spit on everyone involved....lol. Kirchner is still alive and no drone fired a Predator up her ass, so I fail to see the analogy of collectors knocking on hewr door breaking her legs. If they were, she'd be dead.
58 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 01:08 pm Report abuse
I'm pretty sure you've never seen my Penis.

Plus a couple hundred word diatribe against male circumcision is supposed to be a reply about high interest rates? I don't get it.

There is something seriously wrong with you.
59 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 01:29 pm Report abuse
@56 What? I didn't say anything against jews. I just said that your explanation for why there are many contradictions might be as a result of different deities.

All relgions lay claim to the 'truth' including the crypto-religion of humanism, and I was simply discussing the nature of how two deities having differing views on the human form might explain the discrepancy.

Was this not clear? Why do you see everything as antisemitism. Do you have antisemites under your bed?

@58 It is unlikely that you would understand. You probably think that your parents having your genitals mutilated at birth was a loving act of kindness.

I'll let you get back to your massive celebration of widespread usury, and the resulting family turmoil.
60 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 03:09 pm Report abuse
Yankee now that the “wanna-be-a-real-country” of Argentina is about to come crashing down like a poorly biult house of cards, the new motto has moved from “vulture funds' to usury lenders. Again there is a serious lack of understanding in the concept of risk-rate-reward.
Yankee, do you know what the original interest rates were of the original bonds. Also, can you refresh my memory and remid me of whom was holding the gun to Argentina and, to steal a phrase from Cheech and Chong, saying.....”Sign the papers old man”?
61 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 03:24 pm Report abuse
@60 Just so you know, this is not usury. It's debt collection. Usury is the immoral or unethical lending of money for profit through interest. However, in this case the original bondholders sold the defaulted debts to NML capital who in turn acted to collect on those debts. Because their is no agreed method for governments to declare themselves bankrupt these debts were not nullified and the debt collectors (NML capital) have sought to attach assets to this case in the same way as if normal debt collectors gain entrance to your house and 'attach' your tv and jewels.

That's not usury, and calling them 'debt-collection funds' would be better fitting name.
62 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 05:45 pm Report abuse
Well now, I thank the professor shed-time prefusively for enlightening me due to your mispersceptive thinking on my understanding of usury versus debt collection.
You certainly cover many topics of digression in one article.....from “go tell it on the mountain” to usuray and circumcisms that you tend to forget when someone responds to your earlier diatribes.

Debt collectors, bargian buy out......call them what you want, until they become illegal via international treaties or law, I suggest you deal with the fact they are well within their rights to collect “TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW” no?

Did the moron nasty nestor think that there would be no repercussions to walking away from 70,000,000,000 in debt that they legally signed for? Or did he assume he and asslips would be long gone by then, only his inconvenient death screwed asslip and left her holding the tigher by the tail.

The way it should have hadn't would have been....“hey creditors, we have to talk” not...“hey creditors, this is what is going to happen like it or not”. That latter attitude fucked them to the hilt.
63 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:12 pm Report abuse
@62 I see the issue as more of a 'should countries be allowed to go into a state of bankruptcy whereby they are absolved of debts'. Individuals have this right, and so do companies when they are disolved. So should countries not have the same option?

I agree that telling debtors what they are or aren't getting didn't help at all in this case, and by working with their debtors they could probably have avoided all of this completely and NML debt collection agency wouldn't have been chasing them through the courts, looking for kneecaps.

The widespread male genital mutilation discussion was to draw a line under statements by USA folks on how moral and ethical they are and their capitalism is. When in reality they are so disgusted by the sight of their newborn children, that they mutilating their genitals without consent and the hospitals subsequently sell the harvested foreskins to face-cream companies. As if this is somehow evidence of a deeply moral society or highly ethical capitalism.
64 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:22 pm Report abuse
Shed, Your logic is bizarre, truly bizarre.
Did you attend any sort of higher education? It is a serious question not a slam.
I find your comments absolutely fascinating and not in a good way.

You clearly have a tenuous grasp on reality and are in need of medical assistance.

I think our good friend Toby had the same facination with male genetalia and USA morality.
Must be in the water there....
65 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:35 pm Report abuse
Yankee, I do think shed has an education. Remeber back in the 70's, the match book covers on the inside? “ You too can get your economics degree by mailling 5.95 plus posatge and handling.”
He almost sounded reason but went to shit from the kneecaps on. There was another troll, maybe guzz that always broached penis' into the discussion. And it is astronomically off topic, it is an extreme assuption that every male is circumcized in the USA. Though 1/3 of the world has it performed. I think he is one little minded sick fuck.
66 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:38 pm Report abuse
@64 Look, I know you're upset. I would be too if my parents had have non-consentually mutilated my genitals at birth. Of course you want to blame me for the fact doctors in the USA routinely ignore their Hippocratic Oath and engage in non-informed non-consentual mutilation of this type, by persuading parents that it looks more normal.

Your suggestions that I am somehow unilluminated, illogical or mentally unstable simply because I am from an unsavage society that doesn't mutilate newborn babies and sell the parts of their genitalia so rich people can have face cream (see [1][2][3]) , doesn't hold any water.

As I said, in most countries your paediatricians would be arrested for child abuse, performing mutilation without consent and the hospitals would be closed for profitting from the illegal harvesting of body parts.

You'll probably call me deranged as you sign for your own children to be mutilated too. That's just American capitalism for you, and at least it'll go to make a rich person's face look better. What do underanged people do in that country of yours? You should illuminate us.

Savages.

[1] www.torontosun.com/2013/01/23/oprah-protested-for-endorsing-face-cream-made-from-foreskins
[2] www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268049/Protestors-demand-Oprah-pull-endorsement-fountain-youth-face-cream-baby-foreskins.html
[3] now.msn.com/oprah-winfrey-protested-for-endorsing-face-cream-made-from-foreskins
67 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:41 pm Report abuse
Cap, It is bizarre, scary and strange. I think a lot of the RG posters are pretty deluded but this one takes the cake!
How you can talk about debt, interest and male cicumcision make the logical connection in your mind and then post for all the world to see is psychopathic.
I guess it is one of the reasons I like reading and posting here
There are some real nutters out there and they make my day.
68 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:50 pm Report abuse
@67 Yes, you support the moral criminality that is widespread mutilation of children, showing little remorse, and I'm the psychopath.

Utter savagery.
69 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 06:56 pm Report abuse
You are really nuts but I'm waiting on a call so I'll play along:

Do you think Drs circumcise without parental consent?

and this...

Pediatrics group says circumcision's benefits outweigh risks amid U.S. decline in procedure

www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57500883-10391704/pediatrics-group-says-circumcisions-benefits-outweigh-risks-amid-u.s-decline-in-procedure/
70 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 07:11 pm Report abuse
@69. Urm, did you just post a link to an article suggesting that the main people profiting from this savagery suggest that it's quite good and the risks involved in the completely unecessary procedure, such as massive blood loss and erectile dysfunction, are all worth it?

Do you not think that the witch-doctors of north africa also say that benefits outweigh the risks in female genital mutilations (also leading to profit from death and misery)? You have any links suggesting that lip and nose removal surgery on newborn children has benefits that outweigh the risks, according to US witch-doctors?

How very educated of you savages.
71 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 07:28 pm Report abuse
70. You are saying there is a profit motive and Drs are up-selling circumcision.
Bahahaha
That absolutely made my day
Thanks!
I love talking to retards
72 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 07:34 pm Report abuse
@70 Are you suggesting that the american witch-doctors don't bill the insurance companies for this completely unecessary procedure and the hospitals don't make any money for the harvesting of foreskins, and just give them to pharmaceutical companies for free? Of course they're up-selling circumcision, and of course there is a profit motive.

In answer to your previous question about parental consent: do you think widespread nose removal surgery (the benefits are less nose disease), billed to insurance companies, with parental consent would be acceptable? Or you think the recipient of said mutilation would be better off giving their own consent so they don't suffer psychologically and physically just because of widespread profiteering caused by savage social norms?

I think we all know the answer to that one. However, you're unlikely to see any of this because as someone who was mutilated, you are more likely to mutilate others in your family, in order to validate your own disabililty. That's why it's so difficult to stop this kind of savagery in Africa and USA.
73 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
You are like the crazy homeless guy on the corner screaming COKE AND PEPSI IS THE SAME THING COKE AND PEPSI IS THE SAME THING

Go sell crazy somewhere else we are full up.
74 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 08:33 pm Report abuse
You are like the crazy homeless guy on the corner screaming MUTILATING CHILDREN IS GOOD MUTILATING CHILDREN IS RIGHT

Go sell crazy somewhere else we are full up.
75 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 08:36 pm Report abuse
Ahh my 3y/o used to argue the same way.
Bravo you are a few years away from pre-school
76 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 08:57 pm Report abuse
Yes, because accusing someone of being the 'homeless guy on the corner' is the height of maturity.

The crux of the matter is that regardless of the dialetics you are and your american chums are always going to be pro-male genital mutilation, and I and my post-enlightenment chums are always going to be against mutilating children. There is unlikely to be a consensus met on this topic.
77 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 09:12 pm Report abuse
I'm sure the crazy homeless guy thinks he won the argument too

as I cross the street and laugh
78 Shed-time (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 09:22 pm Report abuse
No one wins anything, especially not those poor american 'victims'. I just hope you have the humanity to say NO when they insist on doing it to your own kids.

Peace.
79 yankeeboy (#) Apr 01st, 2013 - 10:05 pm Report abuse
as I cross the street and laugh
80 God.Is.An.Illusion (#) Apr 02nd, 2013 - 12:16 am Report abuse
I understand that my favorite Guido's Moccasins (in burgundy) are now available at the totally unjustified price of around USD 125-150 a pair.
In the 1980s I paid around USD 25-35 a pair, which is what they're worth.
Can anyone let me know when the price has reached that level?
81 Captain Poppy (#) Apr 02nd, 2013 - 12:32 am Report abuse
Man shed-time most be smiling like a whore on a military base. Quite impressive way to divert the topic of the deadbeats offer to pay MNL.

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