Wednesday, April 3rd 2013 - 23:50 UTC

Falkland Islands’ success in Colombia: debate at leading university and speech before Congress

A Falkland Islands delegation concluded this week a very successful visit to Colombia where they not only met with local authorities and lawmakers but also addressed the Lower House of Congress and were able to express loud and clear the Islanders’ message born out of the recent referendum in which they overwhelmingly voted to remain a British Overseas Territory.

Dr Elsby addressing the Colombian Congress

Jairo Libreros, Professor of Government, International Relations and Security Strategy, moderator of the Externado university debate

Dr Barry Elsby, an elected member of the Falkland Island Legislative Assembly accompanied by Falklands’ post-graduate student Krysteen Ormond first visited the northern islands department of San Andres, Providencia and Santa Catalina and later Bogotá where they participated in a debate at a prestigious university on the results of the March 10/11 referendum that also included an Argentine counterpart.

At the invitation of San Andres and Providencia Congressman Jack Housni Haller the Falklands delegation toured the beautiful islands, which have tourism and fishing as their main industries but also an ongoing sovereignty dispute with neighbouring Nicaragua regarding surrounding waters that reached the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

The disputed archipelago and keys are also in an area with potential oil and gas deposits.

Whilst in San Andrés Dr Elsby addressed the legislative assembly and Krysteen met with young entrepreneurs plus discussing matters important to the two Islands communities namely fishing, tourism and environmental issues.

It is hoped that links between the Falkland Islands and San Andres in relation to these matters might grow providing sustainable development opportunities for both communities.

In Bogotá Dr. Elsby and Ms Krysteen took part in a three hour debate at the Externado University, considered the top Colombian academic centre where most of the country’s political, professional and business elite have been educated.

The debate under the heading of “Referendum Malvinas/Falklands: political impact and regional consequences in Latinamerica” took place on April 2, the 31st anniversary of the beginning of the South Atlantic conflict when Argentine military invaded the Falklands.

In his lecture Dr Elsby reviewed the history of the Falklands but concentrated on how much the Islands have developed both economically and politically since the 1982 conflict.

The Falklands based on fisheries, tourism and agriculture has become a self sufficient very prosperous and dynamic community and equally significant are now self-governing in all matters apart from defence and foreign affairs.

Dr. Elsby also underlined the significance of 2017 when Falklands’ oil production begins and the first shipments are scheduled.

“A resource that belongs to the Falkland Islanders with no intervention of British interests”, underlined Dr. Elsby.

The audience of over 300 students, lecturers and professors were very interested to learn about the recent Falklands’ referendum with its overwhelming turnout as well as the political future of the Islands and the Islanders exercise of their right to self determination.

The discussion centred on the juridical value of the referendum, the reactions from Argentina and the UK to the results of the ballot and if Latinamerica is politically prepared to accept this electoral dynamics based on peoples’ right to self determination.

Ms Krysteen gave the audience a flavour of life in the Falklands and emphasised how the Islands investment in Education was producing a generation of highly skilled professionals rapidly replacing overseas contracted staff.

The Argentine position was well represented by two visiting professors Glenda Ecker and Rodolfo Colalongo currently lecturing at Externado. The debate was followed by an enthusiastic question and answer session from the audience and via Twitter. Jairo Libreros a political scientist professor from Externado was the moderator.

“We were looking for a enriching exchange of ideas and visions on the Malvinas referendum, but more specifically to establish close links between academic communities interested in finding solutions which can help a political way out for the Malvinas/Falklands dispute and for us here in Colombia, in Externado to have a clear picture of the political reality of the Islands”, said Professor Libreros in his closing words of the event.

Among other appointments the Falklands’ delegation had an excellent meeting with the President of the Colombian Congress and was invited to make a formal address to the whole House.

In his address Dr Elsby told Congress about the modern Falkland Islands, of the recent referendum and the wish of the Falklands to have good relations with all countries in South and Central America, including Argentina despite that country’s aggressive attitude which has rejected the referendum and does not consider the Falklanders as a ‘people’ exist.

“This attitude makes it virtually impossible for discussions to take place on matters of mutual interest, (fisheries, maritime issues and oil) as had happened in the 1990`s”, said Dr. Elsby.

“We can live without Argentina and the more pressure the Argentine government exercises in its attempt to strangle our economy and our overseas links, the greater the resolve of the Falklands to the challenge”.

Nevertheless “the Falklands people would like to have a civilized good neighbours’ relation with the Argentine people”.
 

123 comments Feed

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1 BritishLion (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:36 am Report abuse
Slowly but surely, the message will spread that the people of the Falkland Islands have made their wishes known and the lies and aggresive behaviour of Argentina will be better understood for what they are...lies lies and more lies. The world will soon be as fed up and bored with Argentina as the Falkland Islanders have been for years.
2 kelperabout (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:52 am Report abuse
It is just matter of time before the Argentine regime crumbles and when it does it is finished . They have only themselves to blame because they have avoided the truth and for many years they were believed . The Falklands delegation currently in South America is teaching people the truth and exposing Argentina for what it is.
3 Frank (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:56 am Report abuse
The present rg regime won't see out the austral winter......
4 Anglotino (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:56 am Report abuse
I hope they concentrated on the similarities between the Falklands and department of Archipiélago de San Andrés Providencia y Santa Catalina.

These islands were first settled by the ENGLISH.

Through their convoluted history, they were captured by the Spanish, assigned to a Spanish colony and eventually chose to stay with Colombia when it became independent.

Their own version of self determination.

They are claimed by Nicaragua and sovereignty was recognised in the Esguerra-Bárcenas Treaty in 1928 by both governments.

Nicaragua repudiated this treaty and took Colombia to the ICJ where the ICJ ruled in Colombia's favour on the actual islands in 2007 and Nicaragua's favour on the water last year.

Both still dispute the findings though.

I would think that Colombians would be more likely to side with the Islands on this issue as they are much less likely to play the victimhood card than Argentina and Venezuela.
5 Islas Malvinas (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:59 am
Comment removed by the editor.
6 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:15 am Report abuse
@5 Islas Malvinas. As an Argentinians could you give your ideas on something for me? I don't expect facts, just your opinion and ideas as to what you think the Argentinean government could bring to the table that would be in the best interests of the Islanders and lead to the Falklands being absorbed into a greater Argentina.

Many Argentinians have commented that the UN would require Argentina and the UK to act in the Islanders' interests but not wishes...I would just like an Argentinean to describe how that would work to me.

Thanks in advance.
7 Paragon (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 02:25 am Report abuse
Hope the Falkland Islands government keeps up the touring of LatAm and Central America putting over the reality of the dispute, its been a long time in coming their chance to have their point of view heard along with the actual historical facts known by both sides but distorted or invented by Argentina.
Something that will be very interesting is if Bolivia actually takes Chile to the ICJ. The court in my humble opinion will probably rule in Chile's favour. This I think will set a precedent which will make the FI/UK argument even stronger. Argentina has now run out of options due to its own stupidity, and we all know why they won't go to the ICJ and if the ICJ rules in favour of Chile ( in the event that Bolivia takes the case to court ) then Argentina has no where to go and it will have been Bolivia that really shut the door on Argentina's case for the Falklands
8 Marcos Alejandro (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 03:56 am Report abuse
3 Frank
Aren't you afraid of ending like Captain Allen Gardiner?
9 Gordo1 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:31 am Report abuse
Colombia - clearly a country where academia listens and welcomes the opportunity to hear what the islanders have to say. Well done, Colombia!
10 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:59 am Report abuse
I'm impressed. For a British Citizen, even one elected to a regional assembly, to be invited address the Colombian national legislative assembly is an amazing piece of diplomacy. The Penguin News should really be able to capitalise on that from a PR point of view much better than this article does. I must admit though, the photo looks more like the local assembly at San Andres so perhaps all is not as it seems but then what do I know of these things?
11 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:06 am Report abuse
“The Argentine position was well represented by two visiting professors Glenda Ecker and Rodolfo Colalongo currently lecturing at Externado.”

Only 1 single line in the whole text about the well represented Argentine position and the comments are filled with british people circle jerking about the issue. Like always.

An insignificant trip means nothing in the grand scale of things. Not even the US supports the british land grab and occupation. Keep telling yourself that the malvinas status quo has future.
12 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:16 am Report abuse
@11 You seem to miss the point about the status quo. They only want it for the time being. They agree with you that it has no future. They want more autonomy from UK and eventually independence from everyone. That's what former colonies do (eg USA, Argentina etc etc). As for insignificant; to address the Congress of a Latin American sovereign State? Wow. Impressive.
13 Musky (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:41 am Report abuse
@11 Tubacain Alhambra
The Argentine claim on proximity (what a joke... A distance of 6500 miles did not stop spain setting colonies in Argentina) and expelled population (a blatant lie refuted by multiple sources of evidence including Vernets on records and the Diaries of Charles Darwin, are well known. Each trip bites a chunk out of the arrgentine malvinas myth. It all helps when conveying the truth. Well done islanders.
14 CaptainSilver (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:48 am Report abuse
Oh, here we go again, a succession of Rg trolls posing as different people. Morning Mr Think, how's the porridge? Have you got a water shortage? What does it smell like? Will the government have the resources to clean it up? These are the questions you should be asking, not dwelling on the Islanders successes!
15 Orbit (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:52 am Report abuse
@11 we don't need to hear the argentine position. We hear it everyday from your “government” of hypocrits and liars. In fact it's the only thing they want to talk about. Don't you find that bizarre when the 23 provinces that do belong to Argentina are in a perilous state on practically every social and economic measure?

But you don't care about that, have another shot of Malvinas opium.
16 Britworker (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:56 am Report abuse
@12
I don't agree with that. The Falkland Islanders aren't going to be blackmailed into cutting ties with the UK so that their existence is more palletable to South Americans. Most South American countries have a very uneasy truce with each other and trouble regularly flares up between them, that's just the way it is down there. Argentina is only a breath away from conflict with Chile, Paraguay and even Uruguay, my guess is that conflict with these countries is more likely to happen sooner than any with the Falklands and when it does, the whole Falkland Islands agenda will go right out if the window.
17 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:09 am Report abuse
@12 It's not blackmail. It's greed.

“People are happy, they have the feeling that at last something was done to show the world what it is they wanted, to remain British” said MLA Short“

The same who

”described the referendum as the beginning of a new path towards the adoption of greater autonomy for the Islands.”

and reported that

“A growing number of younger generations are longing for independence” .
18 Steve-33-uk (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:23 am Report abuse
'Britain warned its citizens traveling to the country
He told them to be careful with the statements by the new anniversary of the Falklands war and theft.'
www.clarin.com/politica/Gran-Bretana-advirtio-ciudadanos-viajan_0_895110561.html

'British Embassy in Colombia speaks of “Falklands Malvinas” Islands
The diplomatic headquarters based in Colombia Tweet inviting a forum about the Malvinas-Falkland Islands, despite the fact that the English authorities have banned it referred as well to this disputed territory'
www.elintransigente.com/notas/2013/4/3/embajada-britanica-colombia-habla-islas-malvinas-falklands-177651.asp

'Falklands: more reflections and polemics, 31 years after the recovery'
www.laarena.com.ar/opinion-malvinas__mas_reflexiones_y_polemicas__a_31_anos_de_la_recuperacion-91545-111.html
19 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:40 am Report abuse
@15
“we don't need to hear the argentine position.”

Why? Because it conflicts with the lies of the British squatters?

The first british base was created in 1765, one year after the first French base. The british were expelled in 1770 by Spain and the islands were governed by Rio de la plata for over 41 years. Britian never had any real claims. They STOLE THEM in 1833 and planted the squatters there. The Islands never belonged to britain, the referendum doesn't mean shit, british use the issue to perpetuate their criminal colonialist past.END OF STORY.
20 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:44 am Report abuse
@20 Independence - GAME, SET and MATCH.
21 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:59 am Report abuse
@19

Even if your 1833 mythology were true, it would only mean that the UK had acquired some territory in the same manner that Argentina acquired most of its.
22 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:05 am Report abuse
@21

It's true. Argentina led wars of independence from Spain and as a result they got their lands. Britain used aggression to grab the islands and the planted population perpetuates this. You see how their wishes mean less than a wet fart?
23 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:07 am Report abuse
@22
Perhaps you'd care to explain how Spain got the lands in the first place? Gifts from the grateful natives?
24 Clyde15 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:15 am Report abuse
#22
“You see how their wishes mean less than a wet fart?”

What a charming turn of phrase. We would expect NO less from an Argie troll.
However, it is obvious to the more perceptive amongst us that you MUST be referring to Argentina's wishes.
Your posting times are interesting - 0600 GMT or 0300 B.A. time. Where are you from ?
25 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:30 am Report abuse
@24

Europe.
26 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:33 am Report abuse
“”“It's true. Argentina led wars of independence from Spain and as a result they got their lands. Britain used aggression to grab the islands and the planted population perpetuates this. You see how their wishes mean less than a wet fart?”“”

Yes and Agentina NEVER led an armed near-genocidal conquest of Patagonia did it?

And it NEVER near-eradicated an INDIGENOUS population in its war of conquest..did it?

muppet.

when will Argentines learn their own history before making total tossers of themselves.
27 Faz (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:44 am Report abuse
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Falklands.permanence.png

Think/ #25 - wet fart? You self righteous Trolls are never willing to go near a court knowing you will loose. In 1850 Argentina abandoned any claim whatsoever, and in 1982 you were ejected after your illegal invasion. Winner takes all, so boo sucks to you and all the other fascists.

We cannot understand your continuing wailing. You are NEVER going to win, and we are all laughing at your pathetic whinging :- ))))
28 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:44 am Report abuse
@26

“And it NEVER near-eradicated an INDIGENOUS population in its war of conquest..did it?”

The natives killed 300 people and stole 200 000 heads of cattle. In return Argentina killed 1200 natives. Hardly any genocide.

www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html

Dealing with bandits is not deliberate genocide. Starving 30+ million Indians to death is. Worse than Nazi Germany.

When will britain come to terms with its past?
29 Britworker (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:52 am Report abuse
@28
Erm, didn't the country belong to the people you refer to as 'natives and bandits'. I think you are missing the point here, or being evasive more like.
You colonised and killed them off. Yes?
30 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:58 am Report abuse
@29
I am not Argentinian. There are not accounts of deliberate extermination of indigenous people in Argentina. DNA studies show that many of today's argentinians have native ancestry (between 40-60% depending of provinces)

To sum it up for the dimwitted folks here that spew nonsense. Argentinians are a bland of natives and europeans who have developed their county from scratch and have the right of self determination as “peoples”.

The falklanders are planted there and serve as a proxy for british colonialism. They are not recognizes as “peoples”. That clear enough for you?
31 Faz (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:05 am Report abuse
#30 More twaddle. How much is KFC paying you? As for dimwits, you take the cake! The Spaniards and later on the Rgs slaughtered most of the Indians. You can see the remnants everywhere living in the Villa Miserias and collecting up cardboard and plastic after dark. You should all go back to Europe and stop bothering everyone. After repaying your debts of course..
32 Conqueror (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:07 am Report abuse
It's nice to see that this article gives the proper prominence to the argie “contribution” and views. That is to say, virtually none. Noting, of course, that the Colombians wanted to hear the FACTS about the Falkland Islands rather than unprovable, ranting, argie lies. well done to the Colombians and to the writer of the article.
Just to clarify, Britain first discovered, landed on and named the Islands in 1690. In direct contrast to the overweening, paranoid, imperialist, colonialist Spanish and its eventual, rebellious, bastard offshoot, argieland, Britain raised no direct objection to the single French “settlement”, a “settlement” that never actually claimed the Islands. It is notable that France only ever sold the “settlement” to Spain. Not being as psychotic as Spain, or some of its offshoots, it realised that it had no “rights” to anything else. The “Spanish problem” is, of course, a direct result of the papal bull “Inter caetera” of 4 May 1493 by which the entire New World was divided between Portugal and Spain. However, that “bull” was issued by one of the most corrupt popes of all time at the specific request of the Spanish monarchy and was, amongst other things, intended to authorise the enslavement or eradication of native peoples in the interests of the church. Rather naturally, the only two countries that recognised the “bull”, even at the time, were Portugal and Spain. Although some argies like to quote it now in modern times. Even though the Catholic church disavows it.
33 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:32 am Report abuse
“The natives killed 300 people and stole 200 000 heads of cattle. In return Argentina killed 1200 natives. Hardly any genocide.

Dealing with bandits is not deliberate genocide.


what a pile of horse shit.

You INVADED their land, and then you call them blame THEM for their deaths.

what a piece of work you are.

So, in the new-order of Argentina “accidental” genocide of “bandits” is OK is it?

Just remind everybody where these “bandits” were stealing “your” cattle from?

THEIR land perhaps?

muppet
34 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:34 am Report abuse
@30
> There are not accounts of deliberate extermination of indigenous people in Argentina

Try Miguel Alberto Bartolomé, « Los pobladores del “desierto” Genocidio, etnocidio y etnogénesis en la Argentina»,

alhim.revues.org/index103.html.

Or for a shorter version, culturepotion.blogspot.com/2010/05/inhabitants-of-desert-genocide.html

aka “How Argentina became white”
35 Anglotino (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:49 am Report abuse
@10 DoD

“I must admit though, the photo looks more like the local assembly at San Andres so perhaps all is not as it seems but then what do I know of these things?”

Always the contrarian and hence so rarely right. I agree what do you know of these things?

You can do tours of Colombia's Congress building and guess what I saw there last year when I did?

Salón Elíptico - Colombian House of Representatives.
www.camara.gov.co/portal2011/servicios-al-ciudadano/galeria-multimedia/galeria-imagenes/category/4-salon-eliptico

Some things are what they seem! You on the other hand.
36 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 10:50 am Report abuse
@34

Republican Genocide: the conquest of the “desert”

Only 1200 people were killed in this “genocide”.

books.google.bg/books/about/Late_Victorian_Holocausts.html?id=3IrKEzgkQkMC&redir_esc=y

Now compare this to the 30 MILLIONS that were starved to death by Britain.
37 Anglotino (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:04 am Report abuse
36 Tubalcain Alhambra

I didn't know there were degrees of genocide.

One can be good?

One can be bad?

Which genocide lead to the decimation of a people and their displacement with a larger colonising population so they no longer have their own nation?

Sovereign and independent India with 1.2 billion people or Argentina's indigenous population?

You are disgusting if you think Argentina has a moral high ground on genocide because of something the UK did.

Shoo troll shoo - you aren't even an individual or even intelligent; just regurgitating the same old stuff that new posters post here every few months before slinking away to rise again. Wrong side of history dude.

*yawn
38 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:04 am Report abuse
You seem to be missing the point Tubulcain: Britain and the British are well aware of our history - they/er do not deny it.

Argentina, and yourself, seem to have deliberate blind-spots about Argentine history though - oddly enough those blind-spots happen to be anything and everything negative about Argentina.

But even yesterday the malvos on this forum could not deny that Argentina COLONISED Patagonia by FORCE OF ARMS... AFTER the British “supposedly” colonised the Falklands.

The key difference being that the “British” did not need to kill ANY indigenous people as there were none.

Argentina, on the other hand, killed lots of them and even celebrate it on the 100 peso note.

kinda hard to PR that out of history innit?
39 Britworker (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:07 am Report abuse
@36
You are clearly just anti-British. Every country has got an undesirable past, but the world has moved on, apart from Argentina who still wishes to carryout modern day colonialism on the Falklands. The UK has given the Falklands a free and fair referendum to choose their own future, that has happened and they have made their choice.
Argentina, due to their lack of any military ability, think they can bring the UK to the negotiating table by all manner of juvenile tactics. It just won't work, ever.
Argentina has much more important things to be dealing with, but they are hell bent on following the example of the Junta and they will end up in the same place.
40 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:15 am Report abuse
@39
“You are clearly just anti-British. Every country has got an undesirable past, but the world has moved on”

Regurgitating the same agenda “Let forget the shit WE DID and STOLE and move on towards a brighter future where WE KEEP what WE STOLE”

Sorry, but until the people of Argentina have legitimate claims the issue will not be sidelined. It doesn't matter how many threats and false statements you make.
41 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:18 am Report abuse
@36

It's not actually a numbers game, but reputable sources put the genocide at closer to 300,000. This was a deliberate attempt at extermination, including for example early efforts at biological warfare by dispatching infectious disease victims into inconvenient villages. Interestingly enough, in an early version of a trick later popularised by the junta, the offspring of the victims were often handed out to military families.

This isn't quite the same thing as the unholy combination of moronic neglect, racism, local speculation, and Japanese blocking of supply that caused a Bengal famine when there was rice available in the warehouses, but there you go, when you've got no better arguments, anglophobia will have to do.
42 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:20 am Report abuse
lol

and now you just try to pretend the history of Argentina doesnt count against them!

Let us also all remember that the Argentine invasion and colonisation happened AFTER the British “supposedly” usurped the Falklands from them.

That's right: AFTERWARDS.

And the descedants of those first Falklands Islanders are, in the view of Argentinas Government “Illegal Squatters” with “Nor gihts”.

So what does that make of all the Argentine squatters in Patagonia?

And this, Tubalcain, is why anybody with a brain and internet connection can rightly call the Argentine position hypocritical nonesence.

Every argument made by Argentine can be posted right back at them about Patagonia: so when Argentina hands Patagonia back to its indigenes, THEN and only then, will they have a moral or ethical leg to stand on.

Until that time they are simple, and irrefutably, just being colonisers trying to get via PR what they failed to get via force of arms.

---

and here's what the 100 peso-note Argentine hero has to say on Patagonia:

“”“Our self-respect as a virile people obliges us to put down as soon as possible, by reason or by force, this handful of savages who destroy our wealth and prevent us from definitely occupying, in the name of law, progress and our own security, the richest and most fertile lands of the Republic.
—Julio Argentino Roca”“

in the name of law progress and our own security - oh, and of course, because you are ”virile”.

what a load of bollocks.
43 M_of_FI (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:26 am Report abuse
Tubalcain Alhambra

What a series of wonderful posts, all of which are very hypocritical. Let’s say your version of history for the Falklands are true. So Spain expelled the British from the Falklands and this is perfectly legal in your eyes as it is the foundation of Argentina's claim. Then the British carry out the exact same to the Spanish, and all of a sudden expelling in the Falklands is illegal! Oh my lord, how dare Britain beat Spain at its own game!

The Falkland Islanders are not implanted. They came here through choice and many more people still come here through choice. Provide me with proof that my and other Islanders ancestors were implanted. PROVE IT. Because I can prove that they arrived by choice and stayed by choice.

I am very fed up of the wild statements that support the Argentine “claim” as the people who make the wild statements NEVER provide any evidence. The Falklands belong to the people who live there. And evidence of this is the 180 years of administration. As the wet fat put it...END OF STORY.
44 andy65 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:32 am Report abuse
@Tubalcain Alhambra,Do you have a problem with telling us what country you come from or is being Argentine living overseas to embarrassing for you????
45 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:43 am Report abuse
@43
“So Spain expelled the British from the Falklands and this is perfectly legal in your eyes as it is the foundation of Argentina's claim.”

France sold the Islands to Spain due to Pacte de Famille. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_de_Famille

They destroyed british port was rebuilt as to avoid a war. Spain held the Islands for 41 years, 4,5 times longer than britain that left in 1774 to fight another little colony known today as USA.

In 1833 britain used the revolutions and weakened South America to steal the islands. They never had any claim other than theft and ignorance (settling without knowing about the french).

The treaty of peace and cooperation signed in 1859 gives Argentina all former Spanish overseas territories including the Falklands.
46 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:56 am Report abuse
19 Tubalcain Alhambra: You say,

”The first british base was created in 1765, one year after the first French base. The british were expelled in 1770 by Spain and the islands were governed by Rio de la plata for over 41 years.'

So the UK were there before the Spanish? And were expelled by the Spanish? And 41 years of occupation after an expulsion equals ownership? I think you have just acknowledged British rights over the Falklands (which in turn the UK has given to the Falklanders).

Wel done for putting the Falklanders case so well.

As a side issue what has any of this history to do with Argentina? Spain left the Islands in 1811 (ruled from Montevideo, by the way, not BA) so by treaty their claim reverted back to France before prot- Argentina ousted Spanish rule around the river plate. Even though this is the case, Spain did not drop its claim until 1836 (after the British had taken full control).

Tubalcain Alhambra, could you give your opinion on something for me? I don't expect facts, just your opinion and ideas as to what you think the Argentinean government could bring to the table that would be in the best interests of the Islanders and lead to the Falklands being absorbed into a greater Argentina.

Many Argentinians have commented that the UN would require Argentina and the UK to act in the Islanders' interests but not wishes...I would just like an Argentinean to describe how that would work to me.
47 Steveu (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 11:59 am Report abuse
@45 You mean the Arana Southern Treaty of 1850?

Are you seriously trying to claim that the reason that Argentina stopped protesting to the UK (as it had annually every year until 1849) was because the Treaty awarded sovereignty to Argentina?

How do explain the Latzina maps showing the islands as definitely not being Argentine?

Again, why doesn't your country take the UK to the ICJ? Just to pre-empt a possible response here, the UK has no need to take Argentina to the ICJ as we are sure of our title (based mainly on the 1850 treaty and prescription - 90 years of habitation by the islanders without an official protest). We don't even have to dredge up 1833 - this would be enough to satisfy the ICJ. The Latzina Maps are the icing on the cake (and used by Chile in their successful claim against Argentina in the Beagle Channel dispute)
48 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:00 pm Report abuse
@45

And what makes you think that the French had title to the entire archipelago in the first place? And how was an agreement with Spain in 1859 going to give Argentina territory claimed and occupied by the UK?

@44
I don't think it matters an awful lot, but it is indeed rather surprising to find the trademark Malvinista combination of myth, vehemence, and irrationality emanating from Bulgaria.
49 Steveu (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:03 pm Report abuse
@48 Also, didn't Spain recognise UK sovereignty in 1865 (could be slightly wrong on the date)?

It comes back to my point that the 1850 treaty ended the dispute so there was no point doing anything else but to recognise the UK claim.
50 Redrow (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:26 pm Report abuse
@ 10 DoD / Think

Having followed Anglotino's link (35) it looks like you are completely wrong to doubt the location of Dr Elsby's speech. Ooops. (commited to memory)

Also interesting that the islanders are making friends in SA while last night Arsenal (of Argentina) attacked the Brazilian policemen who were there to protect them at the Atletico Mineiro game.

Two different approaches to making friends and influencing people in SA.
51 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:27 pm Report abuse
@45
“And what makes you think that the French had title to the entire archipelago in the first place?”

They were the first to settle it. France and Spain agreed upon the ownership of the islands and removed the British settlement. Britain had 0 legitimate claims before 1833 since they only held a base there for 9 years. If they had any claims back then they would have been able expel the French and Spaniards, but they chose to coexist and not draw too much attention to themselves. When the SA states were weakened from internal problems UK used the chance to Grab the islands and plant squatters from Canada, Scotland, Scandinavia and South america.
52 saphira (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:43 pm Report abuse
How do you plant people? do you dig a gurt big hole shove them in feet first and water ?
53 LEPRecon (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:44 pm Report abuse
@51- Tubalcain

I think you'll find that the British objected to the removal of their settlement and gave the Spanish a thrashing, the result of which was Spain apologising and paying reparations to the British, including returning all the property seized during the removal of the British settlement. They also acknowledged that Britain had a sovereignty claim.

Therefore, the Spanish recognised that Britain had a legitimate claim over the Falkland Islands, and even tried to 'barter' their own claim away instead of repaying the British money they owed them. The British refused the deal, as the Falklands were already British territory.

Strangely enough the Argentines tried to 'sell' off their supposed claim to the Falklands at the end of the 19th century to the British rather than repay debts.

The British refused as the Falklands were already British territory.

Also the Spanish didn't relinquish their sovereignty claims until 1863! Therefore the United Provinces were squatting on what was both British and Spanish territory.

Argentina didn't exist until 1853. So as anyone with a very basic grasp of arithmatic can see that Argentina cannot claim land that was already British territory, prior to their very existence.

The British were there 1st in 1690 and staked our sovereignty claims. The French and Spanish both gave up their sovereignty claims leaving Britain as the ONLY country with a VALID claim.

Thanks to the amatuerish antics of CFK and her clowns Timerman and Castro, the world is beginning to learn the real truth behind the Falklands, and not the lies (so easily disproved) of Argentina, and it's wish for colonial expansion.
54 HansNiesund (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 12:53 pm Report abuse
@51
The usual Malvinista mythology: You're assuming that the Spanish-British dispute was somehow resolved in favour of Spain. It wasn't. Then you're assuming that the Spanish claim was left to Argentina. It wasn't. In 1833, of all the potential claimants to the islands, Argentina had the least basis for being there, a fact which Argentina itself recognised in 1850.
55 ChrisR (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:00 pm Report abuse
50 Redrow

But you MUST admit that the argies were ROBBED 5 goals to 2.

HOW DARE THE BRASILIANS SAY THEY WON!!!

It's just so predictable and sad that this happened.
56 Tubalcain Alhambra (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:02 pm Report abuse
@53
“Therefore, the Spanish recognised that Britain had a legitimate claim over the Falkland Islands, and even tried to 'barter' their own claim away instead of repaying the British money they owed them. The British refused the deal, as the Falklands were already British territory.”

You have your sources wrong.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-06/falklanders-vote-170-years-after-argentina-offer.html
“Argentina offered to give up its claim to the disputed Falkland Islands in 1843 if Britain would take responsibility for a 1 million-pound loan on which it had defaulted, according to newly released U.K. government records.”

““The letters indicate the willingness of the Argentine government to cede the Falkland Islands to Britain in settlement of these claims,” Orbell wrote, adding that the letters contain “a strong assertion of Argentina’s claim to sovereignty over the islands.””

Notice the “Strong assertion of Argentina's claim”.
57 Gordo1 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:13 pm Report abuse
Tubalcain Alhambra - the way you put all your (false) arguments and confused dates makes me think you must be la Kretina herself. Just attempting to justify unjustifiable fairy stories and myths.

Where do you get your doubtful information from?
58 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:30 pm Report abuse
@50 Commit this one too: “As for insignificant; to address the Congress of a Latin American sovereign State? Wow. Impressive.”
59 Diddles (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:37 pm Report abuse
Great news about the success of the visit of The Falklands lawmaker to Colombia. Despite its past notoriety, Colombia in the last decade or so has been on an upward path, with two fine presidents in Uribe and now Campos leading the way. Colombia is part of the Pacific Alliance that includes Chile, Peru and Mexico, and is pursuing a similar economic path to Chile, a role model for Latin America.

Whatever lip service such South and Central American nations may give Argentina in diplomatic meetings, behind close doors, these nations, like Chile and Colombia look upon nations like Argentina and Venezuela very negatively.....they represent South Americas sad past, unlike Chile, Peru and Colombia which offer their citizens far more hope and prosperity, both now and into the future as they seek to economically engage with the world.

I hope the Falklanders follow up on this successful visit by inviting some Colombian lawmakers to the Falklands. Bit by bit, such missions by the Falklands politicians are breaking down barriers between themselves and South and Central America......the various visits by Caribbean, and South and Central American journalists has laso been a successful method of opening a lot of eyes to what the Falkland Islands and its people are really about.
60 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 01:49 pm Report abuse
@59 This article hardly does the significance of the speech to the lower house enough justice. To be invited is to receive a degree of recognition that must be causing great consternation in the foreign Ministry of the Republic of Argentina. This was not behind closed doors. This was not a rogue opposition legislator or two. This was the real thing.
61 Diddles (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 02:04 pm Report abuse
Clearly, Colombia is no puppet of Argentina...unlike the current Uruguayan government and it can afford to be as it is now the second biggest economy in South America after Brazil. The Colombian people have experienced suffering and humiliation for a long period thanks to a long civil war, that the Americans help them bring under control...their is no desire in Colombia to follow Argentina's delusional path into self destruction...and who is one Argentina's close allies these days...Venezuela...a country that Colombia views with distrust and dismay.
62 Conqueror (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 02:14 pm Report abuse
Why are so many people wasting so much time arguing/debating with this “Cain” moron? All the things it comes out with a propositions that argie trolls have come out with many times before. They have all been destroyed. As an example, as late as 1866, the then Argentine Vice President stated, in his address to the Argentine Congress, that the only outstanding matter between his country and Britain was various compensation amounts owed to English citizens. Strange that he didn't mention the Falkland Islands. Could that be because there was no dispute? In fact, there seems to be something of a correlation between argie “claims” and the rise of nazi wannabe Peron. Could that be because his pal Adolf had invited him to pick out any bits of the British Empire he fancied. With the promise that Der Reich would hand them over when Britain had been crushed and the war won. But that went a little wrong. It was Germany that got crushed. And Peron's dreams of an argie empire went with it.
Has anybody noticed that some of the trolls keep records? Just what an apparatchik needs to show what it did and justify how much it was paid!
63 Redrow (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 02:22 pm Report abuse
@ 56 Tubalcain Alhambra

“Notice the “Strong assertion of Argentina's claim”.”

Yes they did strongly assert it in 1843. Then they stopped strongly asserting it in 1850 and didn't start again until WW2.

@55 ChrisR

Ah but according to INDEC, 2 is actually more than 5 so Arsenal were robbed!
64 redpoll (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 02:46 pm Report abuse
@37 Gordo I think this Cain fellow is Guzz, a renegade uruguayo living in Denmark. His posts sound the same and I think under his new name Cain has been dis Abel ed
65 darragh (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 03:13 pm Report abuse
Actually the claim that 30 million died in the Bengal famine is kind of silly as the population of Bengal at the time was 60 million.
The actual (if you can actualise the number of people dying) was between 1.5 and 4 million dying of Starvation and Disease of whom at least half died of disease AFTER food relief was available. The slowness of food relief from other regions reaching Bengal was mostly caused by locally elected (i.e. Indian) politicians not allowing the relief through their territory as well as the fact that Bengal imported substantial amounts of rice from Burma which had by then been occupied by the Japanese
Yes Churchill did refuse to relesse shipping for use in famine relief but it has to be remembered that this was at the height of the War in the Atlantic and even if released would only have been able to ship food to West coast ports as the Japanese had air supremacy over the Bay of Bengal.

suggested reading:- http:/en.wikipedia.prg/wiki/bengal_famine_of_1943

Oh by the way I'm Irish so I have some knowledge of famines and it has to be said that in popular myth that was also the fault of the British though whether it was or not is, as they say, another story which I'm willing to debate on other more relevant threads
66 Devolverislas (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 03:24 pm Report abuse
Dr. Barry Elsby was lucky to get a hearing in the Bolivian Congress. But let history have the last word:-

”This disagreeable event (British seizure of Soledad in 1833) provokes displeasure in the Bolivian Government. It has experienced this before when it witnessed wrong interests with wrong intentions frusrating the grand design of the Congress of Panama (convoked by Simon Bolivar to form a federation of independent Hispanic- american countries). Brotherliness has given the American nations all the respectablity necessary to demand that the European nations abstain from undertaking aggressive actions not recognized by iternational law and to repel them vigorously..... The ccupation of Soledad, without prior claim,without title and with no other support than the abuse of power, is regretted by the Bolivian Government, which respects the rights of all nations and desires that all actions which go contrary to reason and the enlightenment be repudiated. Such a clear violation of the rights of peoples is not only an outrage to the Argentine Republic: it is also a show of contempt which enfolds other American nations.
Let it be clearly stated that the British Cabinet's conduct in the Malvinas, although essentially only harmful to that Government which feels stripped of its possession, is offensive and insulting to all the American Republics. The Bolivian Government holds this to be a highly continental matter and will assist in any way possible with the demand for reparations for this offence. The Bolivian Government wishes to be among the first to claim offence and demand compensation for damages. The Bolivian Government seeks satisfaction on the matter of American sovereignty and dignity. The Government of Buenos Aires can always count on the Bolivian Government to make sure that the political rights pertaining to sovereignty and independence are respected .”

Mariano Enrique Calvo, Ministro de Relaciones Exteriores de Bolivia, 14th June 1833.
67 Islander1 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 03:50 pm Report abuse
66 Devolvera - You are mixed up and dont even know your South American Nations! MLA Dr Elsby was in Columbia - that is the largish nation up top lefthand side of South America.

Just heard a radio interview with him and yes indeed he was invited by the Columbian National Congres president to address the Chamber - which he did. A very significant honour and even as you so rightly say Dover.

Maybe a neutral vote could be forthcoming from Columbia at future UNASUR and OAS etc meetings? ie Columbia respecting that there are actually two sides to the story.
68 Steve-33-uk (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 04:13 pm Report abuse
Latest from the RG realm of fantasy...

'Push for a referendum in the country over the Falkland Islands ~ The legislature proposed to conduct a referendum in the territory comprising Tierra del Fuego, Antarctica and South Atlantic Islands, within which are geographically including the Falkland Islands. “It is legitimate for the people of this region to express their views on the genuine claim that Argentina has in relation to the cause Malvinas” said Martinez...'
www.lagaceta.com.ar/nota/539255/politica/impulsan-referendum-pais-sobre-islas-malvinas.html

'Malvinas and doubts of the legitimacy of the referendum
International observers revealed some questionable points of the referendum.'
www.diariobae.com/diario/2013/04/04/26701-malvinas-y-las-dudas-de-la-legitimidad-del-referendum.html

'Falklands: “It would be very good intervention of Pope”
He said the British stance is “irrational” and that is the support of Latin American history.'
www.nuevodiarioweb.com.ar/notas/2013/4/4/malvinas-seria-buena-intervencion-papa-445604.asp

'Falkland, a national cause, regional and global - y: Augustine M. Romero. Professor in International Relations career at UB. Author of “Malvinas. The foreign policy of Alfonsin and Menem ”.'
www.politicargentina.com/2013/04/malvinas-una-causa-nacional-regional-y-global/

'Beginning 1 International Seminar on the Falkland Islands -
The mayor of Rio Grande, Gustavo Melella, began yesterday at 1 International Seminar “Perspectives Falkland Islands and Natural Resources in Latin America”, which runs until Friday. In the opening ceremony attended Governor Fabiana Ríos, the Mayor of Ushuaia, Federico Sciurano; national deputies and members of the City Council of Rio Grande.'
www.eldiariodelfindelmundo.com/noticias/leer/47961/comenzo-el-1-seminario-internacional-sobre-las-islas-malvinas.html
69 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 04:23 pm Report abuse
66 Devolverislas: The thing about history, is that it never has the last word. You didn't really think that one though.

Now, could you give your opinion on something for me? I don't expect facts, just your opinion and ideas as to what you think the Argentinean government could bring to the table that would be in the best interests of the Islanders and lead to the Falklands being absorbed into a greater Argentina.

I believe that you have commented in the past that the UN would require Argentina and the UK to act in the Islanders' interests but not wishes...I would just like an Argentinean to describe how that would work to me.
70 CaptainSilver (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 04:40 pm Report abuse
#69. You keep asking that and they never answer.... Why?

Because it isn't in the scripts they have been given by Rg HQ!
71 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 04:45 pm Report abuse
@68 Thank you for bringing the first article to everyone's attention, particularly mine. Sr Martinez is just a bit slow off the mark though as the following demonstrates......

en.mercopress.com/2012/11/26/falklands-march-10-11-referendum-a-democratic-exercise-of-self-determination

15 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 03:38 pm Report abuse

”I heard the rumour from my wife's tennis partner and a man called Bernard I met in the bar of the Dover Royal British Legion. Apparently, the idea is to ask the same question of the population throughout the rest of the Province (in the official languages of Spanish and English of course). “Do you wish the Islands to remain a British Overseas Territory?”

“That would yield an overwhelming NO vote, thus triggering a debate, as promised in the draft preamble, in all parts of the Province and ultimately in the UN about what the alternatives are. I must say, it has some interesting PR connotations, bearing in mind this is all about PR. Best of all, hours more Mercopress fun.”
72 redpoll (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 05:02 pm Report abuse
@66 Revolver You playing Russian roulette?
If so PLEASE putthe gun away before you shoot yourself in the foot or send the Bolivian Navy to invade the Falkland Islands.
South American solidarity!!!
Dont you Bolivians have a slight problem with Chile over access to the sea lost in the War of the Pacific as does Peru? Venezuela claims half of the independent republic of Guiana. Niether Nicaragua or Colombia accept the judgements of the ICJ over the islands mentioned in the article.
Your lot invaded Paraguay in the Chaco War and got your bottoms firmly smacked.
Guatemala still claims the terretory of the republic of Belize and would have got it but for a defence agreement with the UK
Chile isnt blameless either. May be they should hold a referendum on independence for thier colonially aquired terretory of Easter Island
Need I go on.....
73 CaptainSilver (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 05:07 pm Report abuse
That referendum is such a good idea. Can you imagine the international observers reaction to all the bribes, swindles and misdeeds perpetrated by La Campora etc. A spotlight on 'democracy' in action. :-))) And, it would cost a fortune whilst people grapple with poverty, a crumbling country, rip roaring inflation and lack of jobs. Could be the spark for the next revolution.
74 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 05:08 pm Report abuse
@71 Think:

'throughout the rest of the Province...'

Chuckle chucle...you've still got it Think, but this new material is nowhere near as funny as your ventriloquist double act.

I am really surprised that the Argentine government are not trying to get the FIG to speak in Latin America more often. After all, they are barely semi-professional next to their counterparts from Argentina. Any one would think that the more the FIG engage with the world the more chance of gaffs like Argentina's politicians manage with such regularity.

Bring on an Argentinian held vote. The polling stations in the Falklands should be quite interesting, and if there are none then that would be more ammunition for the Falklanders. If Argentina go through with this I can see nothing but the world face-slapping itself, that is, before they think 'hold on, Argentina is seriously claiming part of Antarctica as Argentina?'.

Bring on another massive own goal...please.
75 andy65 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
Isn't it rats like Alicia Castro that accuse the British of stunts????
76 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:01 pm Report abuse
@74 Thank you for your kind words but the material is recycled, not new. Of course, since the same question was going to be used as the one put to the electorate in the Falkland Islands there wouldn't be a need to ask them again. Thank heavens for an internationally observed and supervised Referendum with the results already recognised. That's what Bernardo told me anyway.
77 Redrow (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:08 pm Report abuse
@Think

It's your country, your can hold whatever referendum you like. Perhaps I could draw a parallel though. Senator Mitchell (US) was chair of the N.Ireland negotiations at which it was decided that the people of NI should decide their own future and that specifically the wishes of the larger Irish Republic could not supersede the wishes of the smaller NI population. Now the RoI has a far better claim to NI than Argentina has to the FI and yet here Argentines float the idea of an Argentine referendum intended to show it could outvote the islanders. I suspect it wasn't a serious suggestion but personally I hope they actually do it just for its sheer stupidity.
78 andy65 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:40 pm Report abuse
Remember Dove is now to be known as THINKEDOVER
79 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:50 pm Report abuse
“”“”This is the noblest tribute we can make to the 649 heroes who lost their lives defending the sovereignty,“”“”“

offs

now the Invading Argentine armed forces were actually ”defenders of sovereignty“

they didnt actually invade at all!

---

dover is a total gibbon - this would be the same Legion where he made up a previous ”visit“ near the Harbour where he sees ships in port that are hundreds of miles away, in a Britain that he ”forgets” is not (NOT) Roman Catholic.

he's about as British as Think is.

oh, hang on....
80 andy65 (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:53 pm Report abuse
He's a W....r and if he did live in the UK i'd be happy to tell him personally.
81 briton (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 06:53 pm Report abuse
When all south America learns the real truth,
They will drop CFK like dog turd,

The islands are british.
.
82 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:14 pm Report abuse
@77 Are you actually advocating negotiations between UK and Argentina? Remarkable.

@79 Do you have in mind Funky or Edward? From the quality of your posts I don't just think, I know the answer to that one.
83 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:23 pm Report abuse
@76 But the Argentine government has said that poll didn't count. Do you 'think' the results will now be declared to be legitimate by the same government? Another massive gaff I 'think'.

Plus, with a proper campaign the Falklanders may well have a change of heart, and it all needs to be carried out within the same timeframe because maybe they have even had a change of heart since the last poll.

Still, we are just amateurs. I'm sure the highly paid politicians of Argentina know how to run a free and fair poll.

CFK can come and canvas for the local vote, that will be a good photo opp for her.
84 briton (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:30 pm Report abuse
she was jealous, just because she was not mentioned,

Now if it was done with a bit more grit, and South American antiquity
The question could have said,
1, do you wish to remain british
Or
2, do you with to be argentine,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If the same result came back,
She would have been humiliated and put in her place.
mmmmmmmm
.
85 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:35 pm Report abuse
“”“@76 But the Argentine government has said that poll didn't count. Do you 'think' the results will now be declared to be legitimate by the same government? Another massive gaff I 'think'.”“”

i think they will be too scared that they will get more than 3 people voting against it to dare to proceed - plus it makes them look like a bigger bunch of plonkers & halfwits than DoverThunk actually is.
86 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:42 pm Report abuse
@83 I rang Bernardo and he says that the poll didn't count because the rest of the votes haven't been collected and counted yet. He says that if the Falkland Islanders have changed their minds they can make it clear in their end of year District elections. Seems reasonable to me.
87 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:42 pm Report abuse
@84: If part of Argentina voted for independence it would be hilarious.

Maybe if Argentina does have this vote, then the UK should open an offer of talks for that part of mainland Argentina to become a BOT. Not as part of the Falklands, of course that would be stupid what with hundreds of miles of sea water and the cultural differences between them, but their own territory. Then they would be able to trade with Europe, without the pesky BA government getting in the way.
88 briton (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:48 pm Report abuse
sound like a good idea..
89 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:49 pm Report abuse
So the Welsh in patagonia get to vote for Independence from the Latin-infested parts?

Glorious... but will never happen.

Now if the indigenes could vote to get their lands back... that'd be something actually to do with democracy and true sovereignty.
90 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:53 pm Report abuse
@86: Is that Bernardo from the Legion? I thought you would have rang Oscar Martínez.
91 briton (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:54 pm Report abuse
Rember what James Bond said

never say never again .lol.
92 Doveoverdover (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
@90 Think is running agent Martinez. I'm running agent Bernard.
93 darragh (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:31 pm Report abuse
@77

And what's more the RoI changed it's constitution to remove it's claim to NI.
94 Redrow (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 08:34 pm Report abuse
@82 Think

The NI negotiations were between the UK, the RoI and the NI parties.
The recent meeting that Argentina rejected was proposed on the same basis. I have no problem with the UK talking to Argentina as long as the islanders are represented and aren't forced to do anything they don't want to. I can't for the life of me understand what Argentina's problem is with that.
95 screenname (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:24 pm Report abuse
@92 You are beginning to remind of the main character out of fight club.
96 Anbar (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:32 pm Report abuse
“”@92 You are beginning to remind of the main character out of fight club.“”

was he a brainless tosspot of a sock-puppet too?
97 St.John (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:33 pm Report abuse
“France sold the Islands to Spain due to Pacte de Famille.”

Not according to de Bougainville, who founded the French colony.

“He recibido seiscientos diez y ocho mil ciento y ocho libras trece sueldos y once dineros que importa un estado que he presentado de LOS GASTOS QUE HAN CAUSADO A LA COMPAÑÍA DE SAN MALO las expediciones hechas para fundar intrusos establecimientos en las Islas Malvinas ...”
(Signed) M. de Bougainville, October 4th, 1766 in San Ildefonso.“

I have received six hundred and eighteen thousand one hundred and eight livres, thirteen sols, and eleven deniers, being the amount of an estimate that I have given in, of the EXPENSES INCURRED BY THE ST. MALO COMPANY in equipments for founding their intrusive establishments in the Malvina Islands, belonging to his Catholic Majesty ...

servicios.abc.gov.ar/docentes/efemerides/2deabril/descargas/historia/bouganville.pdf

”When I delivered the settlement to the Spaniards, all the expense, whatsoever, which it had cost till the first of April 1767, amounted to 603,000 livres, including the interest of five per cent, on the sums expended since the first equipment. France having acknowledged the catholic kings right to the Malouines, he, by a principle of the law of nations, owed no reimbursements to these costs. However, as his majesty took all the ships, boats, goods, arms, ammunition, and provisions that belonged to our settlement, he being equally just and generous, desired that WE SHOULD BE REIMBURSED FOR WHAT WE HAD LAID OUT; and the above sum was remitted to us by his treasurers; part at Paris, and the rest at Buenos Ayres.“

Louis Antoine de Bougainville: ”Voyage around the world 1766-1769“, London 1772 (A transcription of the translation of ”Le voyage autour du monde, par la frégate La Boudeuse, et la flûte L'Étoile” into English by John Reinhold Forster), (p. 29 in .pdf file)

archive.org/download/VoyageAroundTheWorldByLewisDeBougainville1766-9/Bougainville_Voyage_Eng_Transcr_JFF.pdf
98 Mito (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:43 pm Report abuse
It is only a matter of convenience. Argentina needs to focus on developing our natural resources and to live in peace. Let the Islanders leave in freedom. Then if it is still convenient for Argentina we should practice business with them or not.
99 St.John (#) Apr 04th, 2013 - 09:47 pm Report abuse
“Push for a referendum in the country over the Falkland Islands ~ The legislature proposed to conduct a referendum in the territory comprising Tierra del Fuego, Antarctica and South Atlantic Islands, within which are geographically including the Falkland Islands. “It is legitimate for the people of this region to express their views on the genuine claim that Argentina has in relation to the cause Malvinas” said Martinez...” (68 Steve-33-uk)

I wonder why the Argentine government did not hold a referendum - might it be because ...

“Encuesta revela que si les preguntaran si querrían ser británicos, porteños votarían igual que kelpers en referéndum”
“el 65 por ciento de los porteños ”haría lo que venga“ para tener la ciudadanía inglesa.”

Survey reveals that if they were asked if they would be British, the porteños (people living in Buenos Aires) would vote like the kelpers in referendum.
65% of the porteños would do what it takes to become British.

revistabarcelona.com.ar/encuesta-revela-que-si-les-preguntaran-si-querrian-ser-britanicos-portenos-votarian-igual-que-kelpers-en-referendum/
100 screenname (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 12:04 am Report abuse
@99 St.John: Wouldn't you think the daft buggers would just use their Spanish/Italian/etc passports to come to the UK?
101 St.John (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 12:29 am Report abuse
@ 98 Mito

Precisely. Argentina has so many resources that it ought to be among the 10 - perhaps the 5 - richest countries per capita in the world, but due to mismanagement they are not used properly.

@ 100 screenname

one gets the impression that only 35% have one :)
102 Stevie (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 01:00 am Report abuse
“A resource that belongs to the Falkland Islanders with no intervention of British interests”

I'll sign that.
103 screenname (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 01:38 am Report abuse
@101 St.John:
Of that 35%, a fair percentage were only put off because they were worried that it meant they would have to learn to speak English! If you take out the usual 'don't know' brigade, there will not have been a very big percentage the definitely voted to stay Argentinean.
104 kelperabout (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 07:57 am Report abuse
19 Tubalcain Alhambra It might interest you to know that France attempted to steel the Islands from the British because the laws of the land and sea in those days referred to . A country or a person who discovers and makes claim to a land before only known to God has the right to make such a claim to that land.
Now tell us all on this issue How did Spain manage to lay claim to any Part of South America given that a native people already lived on it. Spain Stole this land from them did they not. This is Exactly what you are implying with regards to British claims to the Falklands.

Well you seem to have eluded the truth on every account. The Falklands were first Discovered by Captain John Davis in 1592. This is very important because at that exact time where was Argentina. Oh how careless of me to forget you did not exist. 1593: Richard Hawkins (England) maps the northern coastline, naming the islands Hawkins Maydenlande after himself and Queen Elizabeth.

1675: Anthony de la Roché (England) discovers South Georgia.
1690: John Strong (England) landed, and named the sound and eventually the entire island group after Viscount Falkland, Admiralty Commissioner.

Now here comes the first piece of aggression from your founders Spain when in
1770: Falkland Crisis: Five Spanish ships arrive at Port Egmont with over 1400 troops under the command of General Madariaga. The British are forced to abandon Port Egmont and threaten war.

Please take very special note of the date 1770 admitting that Britain was indeed settled on the Islands permanently.
Of course you only say that Britain used force to remove Argentines in 1833 but then you would because as the History shows Argentina of course did not exist at that time. BUT the people , the Natives in South America DID until Spain destroyed them when they stole THEIR land.
Now Argentina is trying to steel OUR land and has done since they declared their own ill gotten Country. That is Illegal and you know it.
105 Think (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 04:16 pm Report abuse
(99) St.John

I 've noticed that you have commented a couple of times on the link below as if it was a “Serious Source of Information”…….

revistabarcelona.com.ar/encuesta-revela-que-si-les-preguntaran-si-querrian-ser-britanicos-portenos-votarian-igual-que-kelpers-en-referendum/

Just for your info…….., The Argentinean Revista Barcelona is an Ironic/Humoristic publication in the same stile as the English ”Daily Mash” or the American ”The Onion”…….

Is it from those sources you get your “Malvinas Issue” information?

What a Turnip...........
106 Raul (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 05:48 pm Report abuse
11, 19, 22, 25, 28, 30, 36, 40, 45, 51, 56 Tubalcain Alhambra

Excellent analysis of Tubalcain Alhambra!!

True historical facts show that the specificity of the Malvinas is that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina.
You always have to contextualize the conflict and related social processes.
That is racism, colonialism and imperialism 18th century English and 19. Something the British forumers never find answers and want to hide.
Argentina suffered four 1806-1807-1833-1845 British invasions. Besides the already known English cultural and economic colonialism that Argentine people suffered during the 19th and 20th century. Remembering the Roca-Runciman who starved the people of Argentina and support English patriotic fraud.
In the 20th century UK Argentinas support for dictatorships in the application of the doctrine of national deseguridad the result of torture and disappearances. Before the 1982 war UK Videla and Galtieri support in the implementation of the economic plan of Martinez de Hoz and state terrorism with 30,000 missing.
I recommend reading the book: British policy in the Rio de la Plata written by Raul Scalabrini Ortiz.
Alli is proven by historical facts economic genocide carried out by the UK to the Argentine people.

“The international community is more than ever convinced that colonialism has no place in the modern world,” said Ban-Moon. “The eradication of colonialism, according to the principles of the Charter and the relevant resolutions of the United Nations, is our common endeavor.”
Was referring of racism, colonialism and imperialism in the 21st century English.

face1354@hotmail.com
107 briton (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 06:12 pm Report abuse
more brain washing of the classroom.
108 St.John (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 06:51 pm Report abuse
@ 106 Raul
“Argentina suffered four 1806-1807-1833-1845 British invasions. ”

Impossible as Argentina did not exist in 1806-1807-1833.

On the two first occasions Buenos Aires was attacked because it was a town in a Spanish colony and Britain was at war with Spain.

Argentina as a state did not exist until - at the earliest - 1859, or perhaps not until 1861.

As late as 23 October 1859 there were:

two states (La Confederación and Estado de Buenos Ayres)
two capitals (Paraná and Buenos Ayres)
two constitutions (1853 (La Confederación) and 1854 (Estado de Buenos Aires)
two de facto presidents (Urquiza and Alsina (called the supreme director))
two senats
two congresses

The war between the Confederation and Buenos Aires lasted nearly a decade until, in the 2nd Battle of Cepeda (23 October 1859), the Argentine Confederation army defeated Estado de Buenos Ayres's army, following which Mitre ultimately abrogated the Pact of San José, leading to renewed civil war.

These hostilities culminated in the Battle of Pavón (18 September 1861), and to victory on the part of Bartolomé Mitre and Buenos Ayres over Urquiza's national forces. Confederación president Santiago Derqui, who had been backed by Urquiza, resigned and the Argentine Confederation was replaced by the Argentine Republic on 17 December 1861.

Further “United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow their return”

As has been documented from Argentine sources, almost the entire population of the Falkland islands stayed under British rule in 1833. Only the Buenos Aires garrison was expelled. One doesn't leave hostile soldier on ones property, same as in 1982.
109 briton (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 07:05 pm Report abuse
108
he can only inform you, what is in his note book,

and thus cannot either prove the point or back it up,

he is sadly controlled,
but one day when they wake out of this controlled trance, they will dump her for good.
110 St.John (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 07:41 pm Report abuse
@ 109 briton

It isn't quite fair to criticise (most of) the Argentinos for their lack of knowledge of their own history.

History books in Argentine schools - including secundario/high school - skip all the unpleseant parts of what really happened and enhance the glorious parts even though Argentine scolars/historians have shown much of this to be false.

e.g. the Argentine government declard celebration of the bicentennial of independence in 2010 although it is well documented, that in the years 1810-1816 Buenos Aires, and much of the provinces were ruled in the name of the Spanish king Ferdinand VII of Spain, who had been forced to abdicate on 6 May 1808 - “La Junta Provisional Gubernativa de las Provincias del Rio de la Plata á nombre del Sr. Don Fernando VII”.

Not until 1816 did the Congress declare the independence. As early as 1820 a series of more than 450 civil wars commenced, and they didn't actually end until 'La Revolución de 1880'.

Many Argentinos actually believe in the false history because they have been indoctrinated with it and fail to perform their own critical research.
111 Think (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 08:06 pm Report abuse
TWIMC

(Think, after having read the history lesson from Turnip Mr. St. John at (110) frantically taking notes in his “La Campora” bunker, buried 500 meters under the giant volcanic Caldera at Piedra Parada, Chubut)

- Remember first thing in the morning to inform all my Yankee friends that have been indoctrinated and fail to perform their own critical research, that the USA wasn’t born in 1776 as they falsely believe, but in 1865….

What a Turnip this Mr. St. John is........
112 honoria (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 08:08 pm Report abuse
@ 106 Raul
Ban Ki Moon was in fact referring to racism, colonialism and imperialism in 21st century Argentina.
113 HansNiesund (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 08:23 pm Report abuse
@111
You're confusing attempts to found a country, with attempts to break one up. Obviously in the latter case, you would need a country first.

@112
As a former Foreign Minister of South Korea, Ban Ki Moon certainly knows what it's like to have brainwashed aggressive nutters for neighbours.
114 Think (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 08:33 pm Report abuse
(113) And yet another Turnip that knows nothing about Argentinean history but wants to teach others about it....
115 honoria (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 08:44 pm Report abuse
@ 112
I just wish he would tell them straight instead of trying to break it to them gently.
116 HansNiesund (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 09:05 pm Report abuse
@114
Oh Heavens no.

If history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes, then I'm sure you know your own much better than I do.

But I do recommend you mak a little more effort in attempting to distinguish things that are different, from things that are the same. You'll look less of a neep when you've mastered that.
117 St.John (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 09:25 pm Report abuse
@ 113 HansNiesund

you can ignore “Think”, he has no knowledge of the real Argentine history.

Some time ago I asked him to explain who were the parties to the two battles 'Batalla de Cepeda' (1859) and 'Batalla de Pavón' (1851) - the two most important battles in the creation of present day Argentine - and what they fought over - but he didn't know the answer.

I then realized that he is just filling out blank space in mercopress' debate forum.
118 Think (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 09:35 pm Report abuse
(116)HansNiesund

You recommend me to:
“Make a little more effort in attempting to distinguish things that are different, from things that are the same. You'll look less of a neep when you've mastered that.”

I reccomend you to.....:
Make a little more effort in attempting to distinguish things that are different, from things that are the same.......

As, for example, a Belligerent English Colonial Enclave in the South Atlantic from a little peaceful British Overseas Territory inhabited by little peaceful people......

As, for example, an Opel from a Vauxhall..................

You'll look less of a neep when you've mastered that.”
119 St.John (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 09:48 pm Report abuse
As I wrote: he is just filling out blank space in mercopress' debate forum.
120 HansNiesund (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 09:56 pm Report abuse
@118

Well done, I do think you're getting the hang of it. Here's some feedback.

A “belligerent English Colonial Enclave in the South Atlantic” is different from a “peaceful British Overseas Territory”, in that the former doesn't exist, while the latter does. (Or in my ignorance of Argentine history, did I perhaps miss an episode when the mighty Argentina was invaded or otherwise attacked by these belligerents?)

An Opel, of course, is the same as a Vauxhall, as near as dammit, depending of course on your historical frame of reference. The Wehrmacht, for example, weren't big users of Vauxhalls but they did like them Opel lorries.

Do keep it up.
121 ItalianfromEurope (#) Apr 05th, 2013 - 11:03 pm Report abuse
@ THINK

Have I just stumbled across your photos on FLICKR?
122 Pete Bog (#) Apr 06th, 2013 - 09:15 pm Report abuse
@118
“a Belligerent English Colonial Enclave in the South Atlantic ”

When have the forces stationed on the Falkland Islands since 1982 been belligerent and actually attacked South America?

You call four Typhoon aircraft belligerent?

Belligerence would be basing Tornado GR4's with offensive weapons on the Falkland Islands.

The weapons based on the Falkland Islands are for self defence only, therefore they cannot be belligerent unless something attacks them.
123 Terence Hill (#) Apr 10th, 2013 - 03:37 pm Report abuse
66 Devolverislas

Perhaps your post is true, but what would confirm it is if you could show a Bolivian source for your claim. The only one's I can see are Argentinean.

106 Raul

It was impossible to have violated the territorial integrity of Argentina. As it is part of the UN Charter that did not exist in 1833. I have shown you this several times in the past, but you being the troll that you are just keep ignoring this information.

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