Thursday, July 4th 2013 - 04:38 UTC

UNASUR special meeting to discuss the diversion of Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane in Europe

The Union of South American Nations (Unasur) condemned the diversion of Bolivia’s President Evo Morales flight on Tuesday, after France and Portugal refused to let the plane into their airspace. Several Latin American leaders criticized the decision severely, and asked for explanations from the international community.

In order to achieve a unified action, Ecuador’s President Rafael Correa called a meeting with all the members of Unasur -- which will be held on Thursday in Lima, as Peru’s Ollanta Humala is the current president of the bloc.

In a statement, the group expressed its “indignation and a profound rejection of the unfriendly and unjustifiable acts that put at risk the safety of the Bolivian head of state and his team.” The bloc demanded more information about the event from the European nations involved. The Bolivians say Morales' flight from Moscow was blocked because it was falsely believed that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard.

A spokesman for the Brazilian Foreign Ministry said that there will also be a presidential summit held in Cochabamba, Bolivia, at a date unknown.

The Argentinian president, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, attacked the “vestiges of colonialism” in a speech in Buenos Aires. “We believe this constitutes not only the humiliation of a sister nation but of all South America,” she said

Evo Morales finally arrived to El Alto close La Paz city on Thursday 03.39 GMT, 17 hours after he took off from Viena where he has an emergency landed.


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1 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:20 am Report abuse
What's going on here?

The aircraft looks like a French Dassault Falcon 50 with a range of 3500 miles. Google it, I did.

The distance from Moscow to Vienna 1000 miles.

Why would an aircraft carrying “a national leader” take off with a third of it's fuel capacity on board?

What about filing a flight plan, it's not like switching on your Sat Nav and setting off down a motorway, is it?

Something stinks here!
2 LEPRecon (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:50 am Report abuse
Wow, these guys have meetings for the sake of meetings, don't they.

Is Bolivia so weak that it can't stand up for itself, that it needs the rest of South America to speak on its behalf?

As for the diversion for the aircraft, well since it was flying through the airspace of SOVEREIGN nations, it's up to them as to whether it can overfly regardless of whose on board.

I mean, our South American friends who are always SCREAMING at the top of their voices about their SOVEREIGN rights, now seem to want to deny those same rights to other nations.

Tut, tut, how hypocritical of them...
3 Gordo1 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:08 am Report abuse
Storm in a teacup! Correa stirring it again!
4 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:21 am Report abuse
How dare those NATO nations whose intelligence community has been compromised, be less than accommodating to one of the SA opportunists flying to and from Russia in a grasping attempt to exploit a security breach and political situation against NATO allies??

Ecuador seemed reluctant to act alone, but Correa appears to feel it is safe to act collectively.
5 Be serious (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:53 am Report abuse
Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela and Argyland should break off diplomatic relations with Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and Austria. That'll teach those imperialist, colonialist, facist, communist, racist, old European US slaves.... Yeah. Just surprised that a shit poor country like Bolivia would have a Presidential jet.
6 Britworker (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:57 am Report abuse
Haha, what a joke. An emergency meeting by the OAS to discuss unified action when it was one of their own members, the US, that orchestrated the whole thing, because another member was thought to be hiding one if its fugetives.
They are just one big Muppet Show.
7 agent999 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:39 am Report abuse
8 Boovis (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:48 am Report abuse
I liked CFKs usual blathering anout this “ the plane was held by Old Europe, by Old Europe I mean France, Germany, old colonial powers. This was an act of colonial aggression against Latin America”. Morales is quoted as saying something equally barking. They really are quite certifiable and simple.
9 Welsh Wizard (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:40 am Report abuse
FFS. A plane carrying a head of state does not have an unabridged right to fly through the airspace of another country. They need to ask permission. Therefore Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and Austria are within their rights to refuse this.
10 lsolde (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:42 am Report abuse
How come we didn't get blamed for it?
You're slipping, Argenivia, or something equally irrelevant.
11 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:45 am Report abuse
Viva Las Boligarchs!
12 Britworker (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:23 am Report abuse
I was thinking the exact same thing, you can bet your life that KFC has big ears tasked with trying apportion some blame to the UK for all of this as we speak.
It is nice to sit back and see others on the receiving end of their insane ramblings for a change.
I wonder how the EU - Mercosur trade deal is going lol.
13 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:26 am Report abuse
Yes, something does stink here.

Yes, I believe that Correa was tempting the USA to do exactly what it did, overflying compliant countries with an in-continental flight.

But NO, even the USA has circumscribed rights in the world.
Even though it is the world's biggest beast, it should think long and hard about the POLITICS of 'downing' a presidential plane over foreign territory.
This was not a 'black op.' like the (alleged) downing of a plane and killing an African head of state, in days long gone; this was today, blatant, and in the full glare of world publicity.

UNASUR will condemn the USA
The OAS will condemn the USA
The United Nations will condemn the USA
The 'communist world' will condemn the USA
The European Union will remain 'lap-dog' quiet.

It is not as if this fugitive is a war-monger,
It is not as if this fugitive is a mass murderer
It is not as if this fugitive is a genocidal Hitler
It is not as if this fugitive is thought to have weapons of mass destruction
He is wanted for questioning and is innocent until proven guilty for saying out loud what everbody knows but is afraid to say.

Due procedure ... due procedure.
It may take time and a deal of frustration,
but it is just stupid to let even such a powerful country like the USA be shown up to be a flagrant disrespector of sovereignty, rights, politics and protocols .. and to be shown up as a bully, to boot!

Latin America moves even further away from the USA's sphere of influence through USA's own stupidity.
14 screenname (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:34 am Report abuse
The funny thing is that nobody actually cares if the Bolivian President was on the plane or not. He is irrelevant in what happened. Some speccy geek that hangs around airports is more important than the President of Bolivia.

Is this why they need a meeting, to discuss why Latin Presidents are inconsequential?

No wonder they like to lord it up at the C24: it's their political equivalent of Viagra. There seem too get really turned on when they attempt to belittle the Falklanders, only to show just how flaccid they are when they report back to the GA.
15 coldo (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:36 am Report abuse

Are you seriously suggesting that the US called Spain, France, Italy and Austria and said “don’t this this plane through or else!”

I know the US has allot of pull with some countries (The UK for example) but I don’t for a second believe that have this much power.

Suspiciously do you not find it strange that other WORLD articles are talking about refusal for landing to refuel and not refusal of flying through their airspace. I think there is more to this subject than we are being told.

That said SA are clearly all going to band together to complain about OLD Europe countries being unfair and how they are ALL Victims as always I am sure!
16 zathras (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:51 am Report abuse
10 lsolde (#)
12 Britworker (#)

I was thinking the same thing. KFC and Tinhead must be gutted they cannot blame us for this. Although given time they are bound to find a way.

Morales is bonkers, but has there been any further ex(plane)ation how this diversion endangered his life?

Also does KFC not see the Hippocray in calling this “vestiges of colonialism”. Given she wants to colonize the Falkland Islands.
The counties of Europe are sovereign states and can choose who they allow to use their airspace.
Seems she fails to understand what sovereignty is.
17 Rufus (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:52 am Report abuse
I can't help but do an avoicethinkedoverdover style chuckle.

Fancy a soverign state refusing to allow a foreign aircraft to cross it's airspace. That would be unthinkable in the progressive grouping that is UNASUR wouldn't it?
I'd imagine that Portugal could have had far more fun with them (assuming that the refuelling stop was in the Azores) then they might have let them clear the Bay of Biscay before denying them overflight permissions.
18 Britworker (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:08 am Report abuse
I wouldn't be surprised if he was on the plane and they took a leaf out of Argentinas book and booted him out somewhere over Poland once they knew the game was up.
19 Boovis (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:09 am Report abuse
If they think that refusing access to airspace to vehicles is an act of agression then it's good to know they therefore confirm that refusing access to Argie airspace for certain craft is also an act of agression, I'm sure CFK will now free up certain routes lest she be a massive effing hypocrite.
20 Anbar (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:10 am Report abuse
bit of a drama-queen flounce truth be told.

bad idea for CFK to roll out the “colonial” propaganda call though - wont win her any friends in europe and she needs them.
21 Boovis (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:24 am Report abuse
Morales said the same thing, all as bad as each other.
22 ElaineB (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 11:23 am Report abuse
@19 Quite. She never thinks before opening her mouth does she.

I am in a rather remote part of Chile with sketchy inet so I have limited access to news but the last I heard, most of the accused countries deny the incident. Maybe they didn't want the aircraft refuelling because they doubted they had the money to pay for it.
23 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 11:33 am Report abuse
Since when is France, Portugal and Spain job to look out for US “fugitives”? and exactly what kind of probe did they had about Snowden being in the plan other than “But, Bolivia´s president is friend of Ecuador” to get to such extremes? Did they know at least that Bolivia´s president was in Moscow for a summit over investment in gas and electricity bussines?

Good for Austria for acting as the adult nation in charge, because really, this´s jus ridiculous. I don´t like much how this is going to be used in the future by ALBA countries, but this time they do have a good reason for protest.
24 manchesterlad (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 11:53 am Report abuse
This guy Snowdon is getting more attention than he deserves, everyone knows that everyone spies on everyone else in international politics, it' the name of the game

The US got caught with their pants down, so what! A few apologies to the friendly nations & the finger to the likes of Russia & China & it' s all forgotten in a week

Now it's become an international event with our favourite S.American tin pot dictators all crying foul & pretending to be the defenders of human rights.....what irony!!!
25 ChrisR (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 12:54 pm Report abuse
If the USA actually asked for the flight to be denied in so many words, which I doubt, they will have bought it on themselves.

But as I said yesterday the plane was not fuelled sufficiently in Russia and I suspect that Bolivia does not hold an international fuel account. Then it will be no cash or credit card, no fuel, just like the rest of us.

However cow-pat is making the best of his 10 minutes of infamy and the whole situation is making TMBOA wet her knickers.
26 Clyde15 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 12:57 pm Report abuse
We believe this constitutes not only the humiliation of a sister nation but of all South America,” she said

I am a bit confused here. On other threads we have been lectured by Hep. and Think that there is only ONE American continent. They deny that the USA is America.
So what CFK is saying is that the whole of America has been humiliated.....including the USA ????????
27 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 01:18 pm Report abuse
I really do dislike my own government reading my emails, checking my bank account details and investments, plotting my movements to the meter through my cellular, monitoring my cellphone and landline calls, plotting my every movement using street cameras, using my buying habit data to see if I am buying fertilizer, khat, analgesics, alarm clocks, etc, etc.

I really hate it when the British government pass this information daily to the United States of America.

I doubly hate it when the USA does it to me directly, focussing on my data and movements because I have had the temerity to criticise the actions of the USA.

And I am just an ordinary Joe ... with rights of privacy.

Perhaps we should expect every president and prime minister across the world to be so targetted. But there are limits that are vested in the laws of each country and in international laws and agreements.

And these are just ordinary presidents ... with rights protected to prevent the actions of renegade people in the USA.

Be in no doubt, these evil people are riding roughshod over my rights, your rights and those of the leaders of nations.

It's just not good enough to say that 'everybody knows because everybody does it'.
There will come a time when people across the world will feel the need to stand up against this abuse by those shadowy, powerful people and organisations who remove our freedoms and rights in the interests of 'protecting our rights and freedoms'.

Brasil, with all its dangers, is much more appealing to me than what is happening - overtly and in our name - to the controlled developed world.
28 ElaineB (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 01:46 pm Report abuse
It is the dilemma isn't it. How much liberty are we prepared to sacrifice in the name of security.

I am certain people working for any government are not reading my emails etc. We are talking about scanning vast quantities of information with programmes designed to identify patterns of suspicious activity. Even then it may be regarded as unimportant.

I am more concerned about supermarkets holding information about my shopping habits and passing them on so I can be the target of other retailers. Governments are welcome, constant touting for my business is not.

Geoff, in a fair world I would be singing the same song as you. I am doing nothing wrong so why should I be monitored. And who monitors the monitors. But we don't live in a fair world. JMO
29 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 01:47 pm Report abuse
25 The Goverments of those countries especifically explained via their media they rejected permission for the plane to fly over their territory on a “suspected presence of Snowden”. So one woul aks why?, since when is that your job?, and what reason or probe did they have? Only Austria allowed the Plane to land and with very good reason questioned those countries authorities on their behavior.
30 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 01:48 pm Report abuse
Interesting kettle of fish ! The four countries - France , Portugal , Italy and Spain - obviously over - reacted . Worried about a repeat of the Assange nonsense ? But to claim that his life was at risk is utter nonsense . But a nice chance for the lefties to attack the old European colonial powers ! I am just pleased that , somehow , the British managed to stay out of this magnificent , glorious and theatrical show ! Well done my old friend William Hague .
31 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:04 pm Report abuse
It really doesn´t matter is this was done to a “leftie” or a “rightie” kind of ppl, because here we are talking about international laws and diplomacy being run over for very weak reasons.
32 screenname (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:11 pm Report abuse
@30 Baxter:

I disagree.

I would have liked the UK to have had the chance to bitch-slap someone that I would firstly define as an 'aspirational enemy'. Not a real enemy, but only because he is nobody, but he would love to be considered a real enemy.

F**k him
33 Trunce! (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:32 pm Report abuse
“I am more concerned about supermarkets holding information about my shopping habits and passing them on”

Me too! - I dread the prospect of, after having told the GP “ Less than 21 units” - he logs onto my shopping record to discover otherwise.

A peep into the mind of CFK for english speakers.
34 ElaineB (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:45 pm Report abuse
@33 LOL! I never thought of that. Though my GP is the first to arrive and last to leave at local parties. I don't think he would say too much.
35 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:45 pm Report abuse
31 I did say that the four did over-react . I also mention lefties because “ normal” governments would have complained via diplomatic channels . Not calling a meeting to rant and rave like hooligans . As for international law may I remind you that air space is sacred . Try flying into the UK without permission and just wait to see how quickly you are blown out of the sky ! Naturally the RAF pilots will warn you first !
36 GFace (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:50 pm Report abuse
@28/@33 Given the ads I see when I look at I likewise have to wonder why they'd be interested in US-based architects, underwear and some other weird %*#@ that have little to do with South America, UK or the Islands.

I tend to float normally around Geoff's position, nullified by Snowden blabbing about genuine intelligence activity.. But as much fun as it would be to add excitement to my elderly mom's life by adding random words like “bomb” “plutonium” “sarin” and “sunday-bingo-bloodbath” to emails, I'm more than cognizant every-time I and my family flies that we are subjected to impotent-n-creepy security theatre is NOT what is keeping my plane from losing lift-thrust-drag in favor of gravity.
37 ElaineB (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:52 pm Report abuse
@33 That article is hilarious.
38 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:52 pm Report abuse
#15 I could not agree with you more. For anyone think that France or all countries would take an order like that from the USA know nothing about international relationships. lol
France always does, always has and always will not take orders and do as it pleases.
Reiterating what #14 said, it shows what the entire world thinks of SA leaders. But then again, when you send a leader around in a small corporate jet without protection, it also shows what SA thinks of it's leaders as well.

Elaine I have been trying to get that point across. The amount of data being scanned on hundreds of millions of people, that amount is mind bending. They fail to understand how many analysts it would take to go through that data at a level they suggest. Perhaps some data is eveballed by some idiot, but most is scanned with algorithms target keys words, items etc. ANd I also agree I am more concerned with retailers holding my CC information from my past purchases.
39 Condorito (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 02:55 pm Report abuse
1 RC
The flight was over Austria when informed that access to France & Italy was denied. Austria to Madrid, flying around Italy is close on 4000km. If the planned refueling had been in Spain you can understand why they landed in Austria.

@22 Elaine
Welcome to Chile - I hope you are having a good time.
The French have now admitted that they blocked air space and have apologised to Bolivia. They have also said they didn't know that it was Evo's jet. So someone is being short on the truth and it seems that this time it isn't Evo.

Re. surveillance: yes a balance has to be struck and IMO they have overstepped the mark by a wide margin. By the way, have you ever noticed that in Chile you have to give heaps of personal information even for mundane things like checking into a hotel?

@31 Elena
100% agree.
40 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:01 pm Report abuse

Oh Bolivia, OAS, etc did present their diplomatically made protest while the plane was in Austria and after that. UNASUR is supposed to react to those kinds of situations too.

Also a presidential plane has a special status, enjoys full immunity. And more so when going on board the head of state. A totally different situation, reason why maybe US especifically just say they didn´t have any relation and that this was exclusive responsibility of those European states.
41 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:07 pm Report abuse
Nothing more will become of this so called incident. But it will leave morales with a newly empowered chant. Kirchner has the Falklands in an attempt to forget about the internal and domestic problems brought on by incompetence and disasterous policies.......evil morales now has the “downing incident” to chant about.
The great bolivarian empire motto.......the world picks on me!!!
42 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:19 pm Report abuse

I do not for one second claim to be an expert on navigation of sovereign airspace or the procedure required for submitting flight plans.

However, having read the link @ 7 two things interest me.

1. According to the Portugese permission to refuel was rejected by them. A full 24 hours before take off. Ample time to make alternative plans.
2. In radio traffic with Vienna the pilot seems to be declaring a problem with the fuel tank gauges, in essence declaring an emergency and Vienna quite rightly allows the plane to land.

Now if these two points are true, then the facts do not seem to be as the Bolivians are releasing them.
43 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:21 pm Report abuse
13@ Agreed

39@ Hi Condorito :-) good to know your take on this , also agreed with you on the use of very personal questions for common activities.
44 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:30 pm Report abuse
40 Obviously we disagree . I repeat , a storm in a tea cup . Anyway , we British have more important things to worry about . Change of government in Egypt , birth of the future monarch , rugby , listening devices in the Ecuador embassy and, very important , membership or otherwise of the EU .
45 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:35 pm Report abuse
RC.....imagine that .....a SA country shocking as the USA spying.
46 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
Where does it say in any navigation treaty that a presidential plane has special status, enjoys full immunity and even more so when it has a head of state on board?

Carte Blanche to fly where it likes, land where it likes and whenever it likes.

Anyone direct me to one?
47 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:43 pm Report abuse
Won't it be interesting if the next snowden statement comes from La Paz
48 Conqueror (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:47 pm Report abuse
@3 Correa? I thought his name was Morales.
@4 And again!
@13 Funny! Do you know that “downing” has a specific meaning? Or that the aircraft asked to land? Unasur, OAS, UN, the “communist world”. Which of these is important? This “fugitive” is a criminal. Do you have a problem understanding that? Tell us about these “rights”. Be specific. Condorito gaily quoted Vienna Conventions but couldn't back it up. Can you?
23 NATO. Security of intelligence. Interpol. Apprehension of a fugitive criminal. Morales. A gutless, anti-American, dictatorial wonder. Likes to throw his “weight” around in his own country. But, for Europe, he's a pipsqueak.
@27 Ah, diddums. Will you object when your government stops you getting on a plane, a boat, a train because it has information that your means of transport is going to be attacked? Or do you prefer to be blown apart? You have a problem that your government monitors purchases of fertiliser, alarm clocks, electrical components, mobile phones in attempt to keep you alive and in one piece. But don't mind us and our opinions. We just don't wish to go to the afterlife with you. You want to die? Go somewhere and shoot yourself through the head. Some of us are concerned with more than one selfish individual. Try this. You make me feel unsafe so I have the right to kill you. Ready for that?
@29 Why do you repeat questions? See the response to 23 above.
@31 Do tell us, in detail, about these “international laws”. And where does “diplomacy” come into a self-important twat overflying a sovereign nation?
@40 Hilarious. “a presidential plane has a special status, enjoys full immunity. And more so when going on board the head of state.” Where did you get that? The Beano? ( comic for 10-year olds). “Right, Mr President, you want to fly through this volcanic eruption”. “Right, Mr President, you want to transport this murderer to your country”. When will you be reaching maturity?
49 yankeeboy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:49 pm Report abuse
The Alba leaders hate it when the big boys show them how insignificant they really are...
50 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 03:51 pm Report abuse
46 . Like it . They mean Latin American presidents have that right !
51 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 04:07 pm Report abuse
According to Bolivia the plane was diverted and forced to land.

However, according to the Vienna air traffic control audio recordings, the pilot reports a fuel problem and request permission to land.

It will be interesting to see how many of the other UNASUR leaders buy this version.

What would be even better, would be for them to make this allegation on the floor at the UN and in response Austria plays the tape.

I would pay good money to see that?
52 Simon68 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 04:34 pm Report abuse
This whole story is a load of codwallop!!!!!!!

Evito's plane asked Vienna control for permission to land because the fuel guages were not registering correctly!!!!!!!

If France, Portugal Italy and Spain refused the aircraft permission to overfly their airspace or not is absolutely a non story, the plane was on the ground for 10 hours in Vienna because the techs were trying to repair the fault!!!!!

Evito and the rest of the bolivarian cohorts are LYING as usual!!!!!

If CFK is so worried about the Old Europe closing out their SOVEREIGN air space to bolvarian lying scum, perhaps she should rethink her airspace policy WRT the Falklands!!!!!
53 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 04:48 pm Report abuse
According to some, the plane was on the ground for 10 hours until permission was given for the search of tha aircraft.

Think not, if that was the case, MORALES would still be there! He would not miss a propoganda gift of that magnitude, because the world headlines would have read!


Simons right, they were repairing a snag.
54 Trunce! (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 04:59 pm Report abuse
55 Gordo1 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:11 pm Report abuse
Why do these demagogic despots make such fools of themselves? Once the facts are out their faces will be really red.

The Ecuadorian claim that their embassy in London has been bugged is equally stupid - who would want to spy on Ana Albán?
56 Simon68 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:18 pm Report abuse
55 Gordo1 (#)
Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:11 pm

How about her husband?????????
57 Think (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:24 pm Report abuse
(27) GeoffWard2

You say….:
”Brasil, with all its dangers, is much more appealing to me than what is happening - overtly and in our name - to the controlled developed world.”

I say….:
Good Thinking......
Geoff......; I think this is the beginning of a ……… ……… ;-)

Unnecessary to say that I’m more than pleased by the appalling manner the “Haughty Powers” have played their cards this time.

Hoping for a productive UNASUR meeting in Lima.

El Think
58 Condorito (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:36 pm Report abuse
51 RC & 52 Simon,
If the story is made up by Evo, why have the French issued an apology to Bolivia for closing their air space to Evo's jet?

RC: If I were Evo's pilot flying over Austria and I had just heard that French & Italian airspace had been closed to me, forcing a huge unplanned detour, I would probably radio Vienna and tell them I had a fuel problem too.

I hope the Sunday papers are going to have a nice big spread of this with graphics, diagrams and flight paths!
59 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:38 pm Report abuse
Hoping for a productive meeting at unasur is like going to a fun party at Auchzwitz. Be real
60 Furry-Fat-Feck (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 05:46 pm Report abuse
7 agent999 (#)
Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:39 am

So. To summarise. UNASUR are having a pink screaming hissy fit over precisely fork all? For what purpose exactly? I mean it must be for home consumption because the claims are being calmly unravelled for the shower of shite that they are but why were they made?

Those nasty old European colonialists are handing their claims back to them using a little understood concept in UNASUR that we in Europe call 'evidence'. Google it.

They need to calm down, get off the ceiling and chill, they're making fools of themselves.
61 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:23 pm Report abuse
Guys, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
We know it happened and it was out of order.

Let the meetings of presidents mull over the implications for all of them. They will probably suspend the USA from the OAS, pending a satisfactory explaination and appropriate apologies.

Expect the USA to be a bit more media-savvy in future ... and a bit less gung-ho.
Obama understands ... “No Comment!”
62 Think (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
(61) GeoffWard2

You say.....:
“ They will probably suspend the USA from the OAS, pending a satisfactory explaination and appropriate apologies.”

I say....:
I don't “Think” so......
It's technically impossible to “Suspend” the USA from the OAS.......
But this will most probably weaken the dying OAS even further, to the benefit of UNASUR.....

Think is happy :-)))
63 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:31 pm Report abuse
“Let the meetings of presidents mull over the implications for all of them. They will probably suspend the USA from the OAS, pending a satisfactory explaination and appropriate apologies.”

DOn't bet your life on it.....oh...wait a're SA, you do bet your life on everything.
64 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:31 pm Report abuse

I am not saying this was made up, I am saying it is being embellished.

The Bolivians are using the word forced to land, that is not the case.

Why would the pilot have to lie to get permission to land. If he had insufficient fuel to proceed, all he had to do was declare so. Under article 25 of the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation, contracting states are obliged to assist. Why lie? There was no need to.

Did the pilot know that permission to cross these countries airspace had been denied, BEFORE they took off? After all Portugal states they informed them of their decision a full 24 HOURS before. A FULL 24 hours!

If they did know, why the hell did they fly that route?

Like I said something stinks here!
65 GFace (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:07 pm Report abuse
@58, Well THIS was unexpected. The plane shown in the photo indeed has a flight record but for very good reason that few here could deny, the more recent stuff isn't there (most likely standard procedure)! (And just what is he doing with Lady Penelope's ride?)

@61, “Guys, when you're in a hole, stop digging.” Heck, Geoff, why let the Malvanistas have all the fun. I plan on hitting oil by dinnertime.
66 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:07 pm Report abuse
This will be a real test as to what power unasur yields or lacks based on how they react to at least an extreme exaggeration if not an outright lie.
67 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:29 pm Report abuse
USA order their European poodles to roll over and they do.
68 Pugol-H (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:36 pm Report abuse
No doubt the whole story of what actually happened will slowly come out in dribs and drabs.

Doubt somehow it will be as simple as request from Uncle Sam, particularly in the case of the French.

The oft heard mantra from some quarters of LA about colonialism, imperialism and sovereignty, combine in this issue to achieve heights of hypocrisy never before seen even from the Bolivarian Fraggles.

Every state has the sovereign right to decide who it allows in its airspace, no state or states have the right to tell them otherwise.

Can you imagine Cameron or Haig crossing SA on their way to “Las Malvinas”, for a military conference? Or Obama flying to join them.

Sovereign rights apply to all states all the time, not just S American ones and only when convenient.

As for the “danger to his life” he was probably safer flying in circles in European airspace, than anywhere over SA.

Shame the plane didn’t try to cross British Airspace, we could have shot it down, by accident of course, claiming we thought it was CFK’s plane.
69 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:37 pm Report abuse
The poodle expat speak!
70 Think (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:38 pm Report abuse
(67) Marcos Alejandro

USA orders their Bostero poodles to roll over and they do. ;-)
71 Heisenbergcontext (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 07:46 pm Report abuse
The rush to judgement ( tempting though it is ) seems a little premature to me. I'm still not sure of the precise sequence of events, or exactly what the different parties did - as opposed to what they say they did.

It's hard not be amused at the sight of Morales quivering in outrage- or CFK's attention antenna lighting up - but I've no doubt the French and Portugese govts are definitely not laughing.
72 slattzzz (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:19 pm Report abuse
@67 bit like your warships eh Marco
@68 Shame the plane didn’t try to cross British Airspace, we could have shot it down, by accident of course, claiming we thought it was CFK’s plane. LOL.
@71 I bet they are laughing mate at SA's consternation, after all if you THINK that they didn't speak to the US authorities beforehand you are sadly disillusioned, if they didn't THINK he was on the plane and letting him escape to SA didn't matter why bother in the first place, if you weren't friendly with the US (as you claim the French aren't. Wrong again) you'd let them go and say fook all surely.
73 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:20 pm Report abuse
#67 hey wetback wannabe.....has anyone presented proof that not only this happened, but that it was ordered by the USA? I really get confused. For the past 12 months you wetback wannabe's have been saying the USA is dead and has no power and influence now we've ordered a no bodies plan on the ground......proof please......we need more than a lying commies word.
Because what I am reading, all their requests was granted or well notified in advance and it's on tape. They should take this to the UN so the tapes come out.

When you grow up will you be a Mexican?

74 slattzzz (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:22 pm Report abuse
@73 ignore Marco Captain he's an idiot enjoy your celebrations pal
75 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:43 pm Report abuse
46, 48, 50
Sigh you may need gloogle translate to read the entire interview, it´s BBC but in Spanish, talks Antonio Remiro Brotons an academic on international law from Spain, one of the countries related to this. Now you can pay attention to this or keep living in your bubble, whatever you want because I dont really have time for debate today, bye :-)
“1. Was it a legal act?

I describe it as an act clearly doubtful. This is not a plane either, is a presidential plane carrying on board a head of state and as such, enjoys full immunity and inviolability and freedom it would have within their own nation.”
76 slattzzz (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:51 pm Report abuse
@75 quite right if it was carrying just the president, but what if the said whistle-blower had been aboard? They've apologised end of story, would you apologise if the guy had been aboard and you got caught out. DOUBT IT
77 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:57 pm Report abuse
Sorry, forgot to put the link ;-)
“If Snowden had been on board, something that Bolivia denies, would it have been legal to close the airspace?

It was speculated that Snowden was on board, something that has not been confirmed. But even if the rumor is true and the subject was on the plane, Bolivia had a perfect right to transport him on the presidential plane if the president wanted this man to be sheltered by his country.”
78 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 08:59 pm Report abuse
So because it is a presidential plane with a president on board it can enter any sovereign airspace as if it was within it's own nation boundries, is that what the academic says?????

Total rubbish.

Look up article 1 of the Chicago Convention of International Civil Aviation.
79 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:06 pm Report abuse
78 .Well done . You only have to read the first article to get the message Elena !
80 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:12 pm Report abuse
Snowden isn´t an international fugitive, and while every state does have sovereignty over airspace above its own territory it doesn´t have it over another state´s Or it´s representant. For all intents or purpose think of it like a mobile embassy hence “inmunity”
81 slattzzz (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:16 pm Report abuse
@80 if he isn't a international fugitive how come everyone's after his arse and he can't travel freely even on a puppet states IMMUNE jet?
82 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
Love it! One of these so call experts said it even contravened common law.

WTF has ever heard of international common law!!!!!!!

Where do they get these so called experts from.
83 Furry-Fat-Feck (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:20 pm Report abuse
61 GeoffWard2 (#)
Jul 04th, 2013 - 06:23 pm

Oh do shut up it is fast becoming apparent that some silly throbber in SA wants a bit of attention. The story is bullshit and you are struggling to make it stick.
84 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:26 pm Report abuse
@81 That´s precisely the question? Is also the reason why some of them already apologized officialy to Bolivia and USA say it didn´t have any relation to it.
85 reality check (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:38 pm Report abuse
Why don't you post a link to any treaty or international law that states an aircraft carrying a head of state is considered to be consular premises and exempt from article 1 of the Chicago Convention.

That would satisfy me, because I can not find one.
86 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:43 pm Report abuse
I really don´t have the time right now, but you can look for yourself if you want or look for any other source of info.
87 Baxter (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 09:56 pm Report abuse
86. Pity you do not have time . Or is it that you know that such immunity does not exist !
88 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:11 pm Report abuse
Head of state immunity is not a common law privilege, but one that arises out of considerations of international comity. Any immunity granted to an alien within the borders of another country is a privilege granted by the receiving state. The extent of the immunity is informed by the receiving country's commitment to certain international compacts and by considerations of reciprocity. Head of state immunity has been afforded to foreign heads of state pursuant to a suggestion of immunity by the State Department. No independent judicial source for head of state immunity appears to exist.�[ Agapita Trajano v. Marcos, 1986 U.S. Dist. Lexis 22541 (D. Haw. 1986)].
89 slattzzz (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:16 pm Report abuse
@87 I'll bet on the latter
90 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:28 pm Report abuse
87, 89 : Sure that´s why France apologized and the US is claiming innocence, you just can´t with some ppl. :- (

88 Very well put Captain Poppy, that´s why this a case of both international law and diplomacy.

“1. Was it a legal act?

I describe it as an act clearly doubtful. This is not a plane either, is a presidential plane carrying on board a head of state and as such, enjoys full immunity and inviolability and freedom it would have within their own nation.

”A measure of these Characteristics, prohibiting the flyover, must be very justified: for example, that the president is being pursued by an international crime. But when not, as in this case, it is very clear abuse of his sovereignty highlights the impropriety of many governments. “

Prof. Antonio Remiro Brotons

A State may decide to close their airspace but when he has done is because a political leader is persecuted or linked to a measure of punishment, as in cases of international crimes, or to lobby for countries linked with these crimes.

In this case it was a presidential plane, with a head of state on board, where there was no reason for a government to prevent him from transit and overflight of its space for peaceful behavior.

The conducted as European countries was based on a rumor that was not true. And clearly it is an action that is inconsistent with international law.”


”The incident has left European officials struggling to explain what happened. Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, the French government’s spokeswoman, said only that “France had ended up by authorising” the flight. She avoided directly addressing whether France had originally denied permission for the aircraft to enter its airspace. Spain denied that it had blocked Mr Morales’ aircraft.

On Wednesday evening, an embarrassed France issued a statement expressing regret for the “delays in authorising the overflight” of President Morales’ aircraft, saying it never intended to refuse it access to French airspace.

It said
91 Anbar (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:43 pm Report abuse
sounds to me like the bolivians decided to dress up their story to garner a bit of sympathy...

although it is unequivocally an outright lie that they were “forced” to land in Austria as that tape quite clearly shows.

bunch of bullshitters really
92 Elena (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 10:46 pm Report abuse
to me this sounds like an extremely lousy excuse after a stupidily thought action, but there, lest agree to disagree.
93 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 04th, 2013 - 11:53 pm Report abuse
I would not call a suspicion of a alleged wanted criminal no reason if the president is suspected of harboring a fugitive, he himself does not deserve the courtesy. Nothing states a nation must do so under those circumstance. And I still doubt lying joe morales' story is true.
94 The Truth PaTroll (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 01:09 am Report abuse
Oh what else is new...

No doubt it is futile to get honest debate from anyone here, but I find it quite ironic that the same people who are defending European nation's rights to allow whomever they please in their airspace, where the same ones stating Argentina had no right to ban from its airspace flights inbound to the Falklands.

How does that Euro-American definition of logic “works”, we'll never know.
95 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 02:35 am Report abuse
94tedious troll Toby

“where the same ones stating Argentina had no right to ban from its airspace flights inbound to the Falklands.”

Tedious Toby
Where did anybody ever say that?
You are lying.

Show us a quote - bet you can't.
96 The Truth PaTroll (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 02:51 am Report abuse
I do not need to show you a quote from an unimportant commentator on this board. I'll do you 10 times better, an official statement by the FIG:

It continues: “A welcome first step would be for the Government of Argentina – if it is sincere about improving air links to the Islands – to rescind its unjustified and illegal ban on charter flights overflying Argentina which, since 2003 has impeded access for tourists, business travellers and other visitors. This would be the sort of confidence-building measure which would allow discussions of other proposals, both those from the Argentine Government and others which we might wish to table.”

I would like an explanation of how Argentina controlling its airspace is illegal, but this racist incident against the first indigenous president in the world was legal. Thank you.
97 Beresford (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 03:44 am Report abuse
96 - The first indigenous president was Alejandro Toledo (2001 - 2006) and a much better president than narco/marxist Evo Morales, who was elected in 2006.
98 The Truth PaTroll (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 03:52 am Report abuse
Toledo was 100%? I doubt it.
99 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 04:43 am Report abuse

Legal opinion is not international law.

It's just that, opinion!
100 LEPRecon (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 05:36 am Report abuse
@90 Elena

Whenever an aircraft wants to overfly another nations country it has to file a flight plan. That plan will state at what height, speed and direction that aircraft will take. No deviation, unless an emergency is declared, is allowed REGARDLESS of who is on board that aircraft.

The reason for this is air safety, as they may fly into the flight path of another aircraft.

Now when Portugal stated it couldn't refuel Evo's aircraft (for technical) reasons, they let the Bolivians know 24 HOURS in advance, so they could alter their flight plan, and let all the relevant countries know.

It is now apparent, that for whatever reason, the Bolivian authorities IGNORED Portugal, and decided to fly without altering their flight plan. This would've have meant that their course would've been altered, hence why the countries involved revoked permission to overfly their territory.

In the meantime, Evo's plane developed a fault and declared an emergency, whilst over Austria. Hence why they asked the Austrians if they could lie.

This seems to be a case of someone in the Bolivian government not doing their job and to try and cover it up they've developed this “conspiracy” theory, probably because so hack journalist made the original 'report' that Snowden might be on board.

Countries have a sovereign right to allow or refuse ANY aircraft over their territory, regardless of who is in that aircraft. If they're not allowed in that airspace, they then have to alter their course, and negotiate, yes Elena NEGOTIATE a new flight plan, with the relevant parties.

The apologies from France was regarding the confusion (which wasn't their fault anyway), and the US denied it had done anything in this issue, which is true.

So in conclusion, someone in Bolivia DIDN'T do their job, and to try and avoid egg on their faces (or more likely to cover their own backs) they've fuelled the flames of this story.

Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't support their 'theory'.
101 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 05:42 am Report abuse
Ah there it is the “racist” card, wondered how long it would be before someone brought that one up? Surprised it has taken this long .

Mornin Lep, earlies? Me too, just finishing coffee before heading in.
102 LEPRecon (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 05:54 am Report abuse
@101 - RC

Yup, although I've got to stop by a friends to feed their cat whilst they're away, then it's nose to the grindstone, and back to reality.

@96 - Tobias

The embargo on the Falklands, which also included the flights, was and is totally illegal.

Of course Argentina has the right to say who overflies it's territory, but it doesn't have the right to unilaterally place an economic blockade (which is against international law) on the Falkland Islands.

So yes, technically the reasons for not allowing the flights were illegal.
103 The Truth PaTroll (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 06:16 am Report abuse
Well but since when do we focus on such technicalities. Technically, there has been a Coup d'Etat in Egypt, and under the laws of all European nations including yours, and even the USA, no cooperation is allowed to flow towards the coup perpetrators. Yet, already governments all over are desperately putting out releases talking about legal wiggles and wriggles...

It would help if someone for once actually behaved decently in international law, and then start criticizing others. Until now, I have not seen one country who merits to be praised.
104 Marcos Alejandro (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 06:46 am Report abuse
70 Think
No we don' t, gayinas do :-)
105 Be serious (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 06:54 am Report abuse
Interesting to see Tinkadova identify himself with fictional characters in Casablanca. According to him he's either a depressed 40 year old bachelor with a criminal record or a corrupt traitor who uses his office to obtain sexual favours.
106 LEPRecon (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 08:05 am Report abuse
@103 Tobias

Changing the subject?

My post was relevant as you stated that we were being hypocritical, so I was setting you straight.

Your post is completely irrelevant, which means that you know that you've already lost the argument. :)

No pay in worthless money for you today, Tobias. Your whataboutery doesn't work.
107 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 09:31 am Report abuse
Tobi boi is back. Either he got the electricity or heat on, or his momma kicked him off her tittis. tobi boi ......which is it.....neither and you are back from price patrols in your special vests?
108 Conqueror (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 02:24 pm Report abuse
@86 You're quite funny. And I'd advise that you stop posting garbage. We have your excuse @86 time-stamped at 9:43pm. BUT, at 10:28pm, you're posting another comment! That's 45 minutes. And you didn't have time? Typically, you then go on to repeat yourself and add a few other bits that you think are supportive. They aren't. Drop it. You're not winning. The thought that a “president” has a right to go anywhere, anytime is just laughable. One final thought for you. It is against all diplomatic protocols to assist a criminal. Remember that Assange doesn't have “political asylum”. He has “diplomatic asylum”, a horse of a different colour. “Political asylum” is well understood everywhere and a state would cause a considerable outcry by granting it to a criminal. And Assange IS a criminal. At the very least by breaching his bail conditions. “Diplomatic asylum” is something South Americans thought up. Notice Ecuador doesn't say much about the “asylum” status. They rely on the inviolability of their premises instead.
@103 “under the laws of all European nations including yours, and even the USA, no cooperation is allowed to flow towards the coup perpetrators.” Hahahaha. And your evidence is....? Or is that something else you “don't have to show”? In fact, a short period of research shows that the majority of coups are judged to be legal and valid.
109 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
Bloody hell not you too! must be a NHS thing?

In my case it is her dogs and on the way home.
110 Pugol-H (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 05:26 pm Report abuse
@90 Elena
Get real, since 9/11 anything in the air over Europe/N America their is any question or doubt over can get a fighter escort to check it out, anything not doing as its told can and WILL be shot down.

@96 The Truth PaTroll
Simple, Argentina bans Falkland flights because the Islanders are not Argies or even latinos.

Whereas in the case of the Bolivian plane they were actually after Mr Snowden a WASP, Snr Morales was entirely incidental to the incident, they didn’t even get time to oppress him just a little bit whilst in Austria, no Snowden so they had to cancel the onward flight to GitMo.

Otherwise you are correct, Argentina has as much right to control its airspace as those European countries did on this occasion.
111 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 06:59 pm Report abuse
I did not quite catch the article that stated he was a protestant, I assumed he was an atheist.
112 Pugol-H (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 07:11 pm Report abuse
Poetic licence, WASA (assumed) doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
113 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
He's a commie, is there a difference?
114 Elena (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 08:22 pm Report abuse
110 So, that is reason enough to ignore international agreetments? I see, for some reason 4 European countries thought they were about to get attacked by a presidential plane that asked them permission to land, ok, whatever, then following your pov. Irak leaders surely should stop any type of plane that comes from Europe or USA, especially those from it´s representants or even fire at it given how NATO begun a war with them under false arguements and their sovereing airspace it´s theirs. Under your reasoning, then China and Russia should also should take those types of “precausion” steps. Really? Those international agreetments exist for a reason, it doesn´t matter if we happen to like other heads of state or not, this isn´t about I aprove of him/her or not, but about I respect this international agreetment IF I want other countries to keep respecting it when my country mades use of it. is a simple as that. So please, YOU get real.
115 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 08:50 pm Report abuse

What bloody international agreements? There is not a single international agreement that says any head of state, can carte blanche overfly any sovereign state without clearance, at will. There is no diplomatic immunity in the air, no flying embassy, no right on unrestricted diplomatic passage!

For Christ sake, you are the one saying this right exists, so bloody well prove it and show us where we can find these so called INTERNATIONAL AGRREMENTS.


So put up or shut up and show us where to find this mythical treaty.

As for NATO. It stands for NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION, and unlike the British, has not been within a thousand miles of your territory.
116 ChrisR (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 09:37 pm Report abuse
115 reality check

Calm down dear, it's only a stupid argie female (shades of the now deceased Michael Winner advert). :o)
117 reality check (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 10:03 pm Report abuse

Calm ferkin down!!!

They really wind me up, not because they come up with this shit, but because they are so ferkin indoctrinated, have no free will! No capacity to work things out for themselves, no ferkin common ferkin grasp of common ferkin sense!!!

Paint a ferkin flag on a plane, stick a man in it, call him a president and you can fly him over any sovereign territory, when you like, how you like and as many time as you like and that territory can do jack shit about it! Holy Mary mother of Jesus, her pedophile hymn singing ferkin saints and their perverted cousins too. That's really ferkin clever, who the ferk worked that out?????


Ferkin pathetic and we are supposed to believe that these people are educated, thank ferk I never went higher than high school and live this side of the equator!

You do not think I over did it on this on, do you Chris???..
118 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 10:22 pm Report abuse

You're bang on, don't doubt yourself.

The trolls have no scruples, no integrity and no Inyellectual Honesty.

Make no mistake, They are not here to make intellectual arguments, debate moral issues, or define ethics.

They are ruthlessly trying to score political points regardless of truth or legality.
Enough sowing of doubt and spouting of propaganda/lies/ contradictory opinion, and they hope to overwhelm and wear down their adversaries to the point where only the messages of the Propagandists are unchallenged and get through.

THEY have NO qualms about taking things from innocents and rightful owners, under false pretences, or mis-representing other parties to get what they want, regardless of the cost to others.

THEY are NOT restrained by any moral or ethical code.

Play “Hard ball”, its no more than they deserve.

119 Elena (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 11:17 pm Report abuse
Sorry 116,117 and 118: But I was just stating my oppinion in answer to @110
“@90 Elena
Get real, since 9/11 anything in the air over Europe/N America their is any question or doubt over can get a fighter escort to check it out, anything not doing as its told can and WILL be shot down”

In reality I don´t enjoy getting into troll behavoir or language, and that wasn´t my intention, I apologize if I insulted you but not for me speaking my mind. In fact I was making an example of a world without diplomatic and international agreetments. Also, I am not Argentine, so let rest your issues with them, ok.
“Article 40
1. If a diplomatic agent passes through or is in the territory of a third State, which has granted him
a passport visa if such visa was necessary, while proceeding to take up or to return to his post, or when
returning to his own country, the third State shall accord him inviolability and such other immunities as
may be required to ensure his transit or return. The same shall apply in the case of any members of his
family enjoying privileges or immunities who are accompanying the diplomatic agent, or travelling
separately to join him or to return to their country.
2. In circumstances similar to those specified in paragraph 1 of this article, third States shall not
hinder the passage of members of the administrative and technical or service staff of a mission, and of
members of their families, through their territories.”
“The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 is an international treaty that defines a framework for diplomatic relations between independent countries. It specifies the privileges of a diplomatic mission that enable diplomats to perform their function without fear of coercion or harassment by the host country.”
120 Baxter (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 11:39 pm Report abuse
117 reality check . Fully agree but you must remain calm ! These people , the dogmatic lefties , keep on quoting laws on International immunity which do not exist , in the hope that some poor fool will believe them . The Mercosur lads are very good at this aided by Bolivia and Ecuador ! Lies , lies and more lies in the hope that they will convince the uneducated . Keep calm , read the comments of those who base their arguments on hard facts . Ignore those who quote nonexistent laws .
121 Elena (#) Jul 05th, 2013 - 11:44 pm Report abuse
“ Ignore those who quote nonexistent laws” So you are into ignoring laws that don´t agree with you or your arguemtn yet I am the dogmatic one? XD I will not say I am a “leftie” because I really aren´t, I just like to get the as you say “hardfacts” in order. Greetings ;-)
122 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 12:26 am Report abuse

““ Ignore those who quote nonexistent laws”

”nonexistent” laws = laws that DO NOT EXIST, are not 'real' , are fictitious, are a LIE, are NOT true.
123 Pugol-H (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 12:30 am Report abuse
@ 114 Elena
The “international agreements” say that, every state has the sovereign right to decide who it allows in its airspace, no explanation required, no other state or states, have the right to tell them otherwise.

Can you imagine Cameron or Haig crossing SA on their way to “Las Malvinas”, for a military conference? Or Obama flying to join them.

Or try flying the Dal Li Lama over Chinese airspace and see the response.

Iraq did try and stop the warplanes, they lacked the technology to be able to have any effect.

Derrrr, Russia and China both have, “precausion” steps, try flying into their airspace unannounced and see what happens. No brainer!!!!

You really don’t get this, do you, it’s not about “the Colombian head of state”, dick heeed though he may be, he is almost irrelevant in all this.

Snowden is one of their own, unlike Assange who is not, and can rot in the Ecuadorian embassy in London for all they care.

Neither the Russians nor Chinese have made any attempt to involve themselves in this, in fact every attempt to distance themselves from it (apart from some sniggering).

They got Saddam Husain.

They got Osama Bin

Where does Snowden think he is going to hide, if he can get there, where they won’t get him????

Fc*k all to do with Morales, or SA.

@ 119 Elena
Put simply, it’s not about Diplomats going about their lawful business, it’s about fugitives and the people who shield them.

An entirely different legal and diplomatic situation.

I do not say this out of any ideological belief of my own, it is merely my observations of this situation
124 Baxter (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 02:18 am Report abuse
122 Troy Tempest . Many thanks , exactly what I was trying to say . These “people” quote laws which do not exist to prove their point . And they are quite good at it !
121 Elena . Absolutely right I should not say “ leftie ” . What I should say is “anarchists ” who want to destroy rule of law and democracy and replace it with --
What ?
125 reality check (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 07:50 am Report abuse
Ah that's better nothing beats a good rant. (-:@

One result of this, is that now Venezuala and Nicaragua are offering him asylum.

Venezualan plane picking him up do you think?

Venezuala giving him diplomatic immunity so he can overfly Europe?

This definately has potential for further diplomatic clashes.
126 LEPRecon (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 08:05 am Report abuse
@125 - RC

Apparently they are offering 'humanitarian' asylum (whatever that is), and I'll bet he has to get to them.

This is just another bash at the US, whilst they don't really want Snowden, so they'll put too many 'obstacles' in his path, they want to be 'seen' to be standing up to them.
127 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 09:17 am Report abuse
My God!
I think I've become a 'ranting dogmatic Leftie'!
... well, until the next topic, when I will be called an 'unreconstructed NeoLiberal'.
Nothing worse than being predictable.
I think its called having your own opinion.
128 Clyde15 (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 10:05 am Report abuse
Under your reasoning, then China and Russia should also should take those types of “precausion” steps.

The Russians did on 1 Sept. 1983.
They shot down a Korean Airliner which had wandered into their airspce.
129 ChrisR (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 02:37 pm Report abuse
I do hope the bus driver offers / attempts to get Snowden into Venezuela, Chubby would be so proud!

It has all the hallmarks of a slow / quick death to Venezuela commercially if they REALLY piss-off the USA.

Can't wait!
130 Baxter (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 02:53 pm Report abuse
127. In future I will read your comments more carefully . Whither your opinion ! 129 .Chris R . That is now the question ! How do they get him from Moscow to Caracas without causing more trouble ? Submarine ? But then the US dies average a powerful submarine fleet ?
131 ChrisR (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 03:13 pm Report abuse
130 Baxter

I suspect the offer is only for show and they expect Snowden to make his own way there.

That, as they say, would be a neat trick.
132 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 03:16 pm Report abuse

Timerman would NEVER allow a Nuclear submarine in 'their' peaceful waters.
133 ChrisR (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 06:15 pm Report abuse
132 Troy Tempest

Apart from the nuclear one they are still? constructing out of an old 1983 Thyssen 1700 and won't be ready until 2020 (the latest of MANY such promises).
134 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 07:38 pm Report abuse

Argentina launches it's 1960's sub with '70's nuclear technology!

135 Elena (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 08:49 pm Report abuse
Troy Tempest: you sound like a little child in a negation face, please look for it yourself pleasse
123 Pugol-H : have you ever heard the term political asylum? EVEN if Snowden was indeed in the plane Bolivia has everyright to give him asylum, Russia actually ofered him under the condition of him stoping revealing US´s secret´s, which is quite interesting :-) Also, given what happened, THE UNITED NATIONS FORMALY ASKED ANY COUNTRY TO GIVE SNOWDEN ASYLUM.

124 Baxter: Do you actually know what “anarchists ” are about?, because I doubt it. Intellectuals and phylosopehrs have called themselves“anarchists ” you know :-) But , No, actually I am not that either, I already say it to you, I like to know the truth and for that facts are essential, it isn´t my problem if you counfound that with the behavoir of an “anarchists ”.

127 GeoffWard2: I think me too XD, and yes, thats what you are called when you have your own oppinion, it isn´t so bad, after all if ppl from the right and left hate you then you may very well be a moderate, greetings :-)

128 Clyde15 : Do you get those were COLD WAR times dont you? so you are suggesting Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal have a Cold War with Bolivia? WOW :o

129 ChrisR: you may be right after all how much USA needs Venezuela´s oil? China can have it all if that must be.

mmm, they pushed this news a little to far behind, I almost didn´t see it.
136 Clyde15 (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
No I did not, I replied EXACTLY to what you posted.

Irak leaders surely should stop any type of plane that comes from Europe or USA, especially those from it´s representants or even fire at it given how NATO begun a war with them under false arguements and their sovereing airspace it´s theirs. Under your reasoning, then China and Russia should also should take those types of “precausion” steps.
There was no shooting war between Russia and any other country at that time but they still shot down a civilian airliner.
137 Elena (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 09:23 pm Report abuse
And I replied to “@90 Elena
Get real, since 9/11 anything in the air over Europe/N America their is any question or doubt over can get a fighter escort to check it out, anything not doing as its told can and WILL be shot down”
138 axel arg (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 10:23 pm Report abuse
Because of the usuall hypocresy and bad faith that i often see in some people, not just in this forum, but also in the mainland, it's hightly necesary to say that if president evo morales had been the head of state of u. s. a., or of any other powerful nation, this despisabe and pathetic incident would have never existed.
This is evident that u .s .a is taking note correcty of the deep changes which happened in latin america in the last 10 years, thats' why it tries to brake the mercosur, with that so called paciffic alliance, beside it can't avoid acting like an empire which purpose is to submit all the rest of the world to it's interests and caprices.
Anybody can agree or not on the ideas of the different leaders from latin america, but what nobody can deny, despite all the legitimate and fair critics that anybody can make to their governments, what won't never be forgiven to evo morales, correa, cristina, mujica, and dilma, is to carry on politic projects which aren't subdued to u. s. a.'s caprices.
If the europe recovers it's dignity someday, none european nation won't never commit again such a despisable act, using pathtic and obvious lies, in order to justify what happened with president evo morales.
Everybody knows that all presidential airplanes have inmunity, so, the stupid excuses, in relation to that perhaps snowden was in the airplane, are absolutly unjustifiable.
139 Baxter (#) Jul 06th, 2013 - 10:25 pm Report abuse
135 Elena . Actually I do know what the word “ anarchist ” means. My favourite is- “ Promotes division or excites revolt against duly established rule , laws or customs ” . In my book this includes quoting laws or rules which do not exist to prove a point or confuse others .
But that is water under the bridge now ! Where now Snowden ? How will he get to Venezuela , Nicaragua or Bolivia ? Though I have an idea that an anonymous US spokesperson got it right . All these Presidents are playing to the gallery , knowing full well that he will not be allowed to travel !
140 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 03:01 am Report abuse
@135 elena

“Troy Tempest: you sound like a little child in a negation face, please look for it yourself pleasse”

Elena, you are confused, as usual.
Look at the posts again.


141 Elena (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 08:50 am Report abuse
139 I was talking more about the political/philosophical stand on “ anarchist ” which I believe even those youngsters that act in a violent manner don´t know what it´s , they act more like chaos agents than for “anarchist ” sake .
So you think I made that up XD, believe me I by no means am a law professional to even begin to write that, you don´t believe me, that´s ok, most ppl don´t know either. But ignorance over international matters when discussing an international issue won´t let´s us really have a good debate about it, mind you.

As for Snowden, and this is just an oppinion, I bet all this chaos and discussions made the perfect distraction for him to at least think of hiding at some country where he can keep revealing secrets if he wishes. As for permission to travel, I guess he will do exactly whatever he did to travel from Hong Kong to Moscow.

140 Whatever you said sweetheart, if you want to tell me something directly, please do so by quoting or brink a link, I am tired of just doing that myself.
142 reality check (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 12:25 pm Report abuse
Elena when he travelled from Hong Kong to Russia I believe he still held a valid passport or it had been revoked and there was an error. What is certain is that the authorities now know that it has been revoked, so normal travel for him is out of the question.
143 Elena (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 12:52 pm Report abuse
@141 that would explain why he´s asking for asylum now. Given USA accused China of helping him getting out of Hong Kong to Moscow I thought his permission was revoked before that.
144 Pugol-H (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 07:27 pm Report abuse
@138 axel arg
Murcosur brakes its self, no help needed from outside. The Pacific alliance succeeds on its own merit, again no help needed from the outside.

Exactly what happened to Morales, he got detoured, not kidnapped, threatened or murdered. He was entirely incidental to this it was Snowden they were after.

Presidential planes have immunity from search just like diplomatic embassies do, however just like embassies planes still require the permission of the host country to be there in the first place.

France ect do not have the right to search morales plane, however they do have the right to refuse it entry into their airspace.

Every state has the sovereign right to decide who it allows in its airspace, no explanation required, no other state or states, have the right to tell them otherwise.

They may be guilty of bad diplomatic etiquette, or even of being subordinate to the US, but they are not guilty of breaking any international law, merely exercising their rights under it.

Unjustified maybe, but completely legal.

Can you imagine Cameron or Haig flying across SA on their way to “Las Malvinas”, for a military conference? Or Obama flying across SA to join them.

Or try flying the Dal Li Lama over Chinese airspace and see the response.

You are correct it probably would not happen to the US president, but can you imagine him giving Snowden a lift to S America.

Save the righteous indignation for a cause that deserves it, Morales wounded ego is not one of them. His own presidential plane, Bolivia the poorest country in S America!!!!!!!
145 malen (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 08:54 pm Report abuse
Every state has the sovereign right to decide who it allows in its airspace, no explanation required, no other state or states, have the right to tell them otherwise.

They may be guilty of bad diplomatic etiquette, or even of being subordinate to the US, but they are not guilty of breaking any international law, merely exercising their rights under it.

So, Arg can stop Lan planes to Malvinas at any time Arg wants, with no previous explanation as it is not required, just the way they did with a presidents plane.
Copy and paste.

And sorry to ask Elena, from what country are you from??If it doesnt bother you to answer.
146 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 07th, 2013 - 10:48 pm Report abuse
Elana is a NA .....Mexico if I recall her from a while back. I could be wrong
147 Elena (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 02:11 am Report abuse
145 Hi malen, I agree with you :-) Captain Poppy is right, I am from Mexico. Greetings
148 Fred (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 04:22 pm Report abuse
@ 6 Britworker: It's a Unasur/Unasul (Union of SOUTH American Nations) not the OAS (Organization of American States).
149 malen (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 05:07 pm Report abuse
Hi Elena.
We should give them of their own medicine. After all every country can do waht it wants with its airspace, so we can stop planes to Malvinas using our airspace, because we suspect british troops or spies are travelling on them (who knows) and if they cry, we can tell them go and cry to church, good luck. We can be guilty of bad diplomatic etiquette but not of breaking international law, they say and they do.
150 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 07:08 pm Report abuse
Yes do it malen.....or shut up about it....right? Or was that a theatrical statement?
151 Pugol-H (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 08:36 pm Report abuse
@145 malen
“So, Arg can stop Lan planes to Malvinas at any time Arg wants, with no previous explanation as it is not required, just the way they did with a Presidents plane.”

Of course they can, there has never been any doubt of that.

Question in both cases is why!

In the case of Morales, they were not interested in him, they were after Snowden. Sorry to dent Morales ego even further, but he’s just not that important to the Americans, or anybody else for that matter.

Why do you suppose Argentina has not stopped the Lan flights from crossing Argy airspace??????

“go and cry to church” – I hear Pope Malv 1st is singing “Don’t cry for me Argentina” By special request for Radio Nacional from Radio Grande English Missspeaking service. Daily at midnight, Huzzar!
152 lsolde (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 09:35 pm Report abuse
@145 malen,
Please do it!
lt will only inconvenience us a little bit,
Harden our hearts about you even more,
And show the world what a nasty, spiteful obstructionist nation Argentina is.
153 Clyde15 (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 09:45 pm Report abuse
We can be guilty of bad diplomatic etiquette
You have proved this continuously.

Why are you dragging the UK into a squabble with France, Spain and Austria ? It's nothing to do with us.
Of course you can stop any aircraft flying over Argentina.
Nobody disputes that. If it is just to be bloody minded ...fine.
If you want to play silly B's then any military aircraft heading for the Falklands from Argentina should be regarded as hostile and shot down -no problem for the RAF.
For what other reason could they be flying in that direction.
Your recent history has answered that one.
154 Elena (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 10:45 pm Report abuse
149Yes indeed, what those states don´t consider is that this behavoir can get agaist them in the near future, IF those countries keep thinking they can get away with breaking international law, we could even get back to bilateral agreetments times for use of airspace, and that´s dangerous because that was exactly what made in the past so easy the generation of Wars. If a general international agreetment isn´t respected, especially by those who are always talking about “law,democracy,etc” why should other states respect other agreetments when it doesn´t suit them? Even Beyond the case of Snowden, what this means is a dangerous wear on international relationships.
155 malen (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 11:39 pm Report abuse
154 Absolutelly, its more against them, than against Bolivia. They give us a precedent.
If for them is available to do that, for all is available. 4 countries denied Bolivia access to a Presidents plane.
And Arg doesnt do it, because there was a treaty: 4 trips, one stops in Arg so arg ex soldiers or theirs families can visit them. Thats all.
Pugol: If you want to cry, better go and cry to the Vatican.
156 Elena (#) Jul 08th, 2013 - 11:48 pm Report abuse
indeed, but not just us, but everybody as well, I don´t think this is good news, but lest wait and see what happens next. Greetings, I wish you ppl a good electoral time :-)
157 malen (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 12:32 am Report abuse
Yes, to everybody after all.
Good posts Elena.
158 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 01:57 am Report abuse
I hardly think SA and in particular should be cuddling international law as the righteous.
First, do not confuse Law with treaties and unofficial agreements
Second, you assume chief joe is telling 100% truth and Europe is lying and I say the truth is in between
Third, Austria, a fairly high morals country states they NEVER searched the jet. The jet was approached to inquire of the declared emergency, but we should see the tapes if they take it to the UN. Besides, what country, even one as insignificant as bolivia would allow one on board to search it?
Fourth, argentina has probably squat over ever treatise, law and contracts there is.....values and morals?
But hey, a continent that gave nazi's asylum, people that systemically and premeditated the extermination of 20,000,000. people.......yes.....tell us about your morals.
159 Elena (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 03:34 am Report abuse
Thanks Malen :-)

Captain Poppy The Convention of Viena isn´t an unnoficial agreetment but a dyplomatically undestanding between almost all states in the world, one that can´t be called official or unofficial capriciously and this isn´t even about morals poprerly, but about an understanding made for the protection of dyplomats, heads of state, etc. around the world so they can do their job and to keep possible crisis that could lead to wars.

As for your criticism on political asylum, well, my country used it precisely to give asylum to the “fugitives of the time” in Europe previous and during the Second World War, thousands of Spanish, Lebanesse, Jews, etc were given asylum around countries in Latam including Argentina, so I hope you can get tha for us an asylum isn´t a laughing matter or something that can be made “unofficial” just because it´s inconvenient for some other countries.
160 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 09:38 am Report abuse
If you are referring to the 61 convention then say so as there are many conventions signed in Vienna. Oddly it was Vienna that morales landed in that claims he is lying. At any rate, diplomatic immunity comes under scrutiny these days with diplomats smuggling, including the Vatican.
I am still searching for the one that indicates flying rules? Or dos that comes under the assumed none wording?
Do not confuse political asylum with diplomatic asylum nor persecution with prosecution.
161 Pugol-H (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 07:10 pm Report abuse
@154 Elena
I’ll say it again, they have not broken any international law, diplomatic protocols maybe, but no law or treaty.

Exactly what law or treaty has Bolivia accused them of breaking??????

Diplomatic immunity does not allow any Presidents plane, to fly where ever it wants, whenever it wants. They ALL must have clearance to enter Airspace.

What’s dangerous is countries like Argentina (not the only country, by any means), demonising a population in order to justify stripping them of their rights as human being, and then their land.

Sadly all been done before, many times.

That’s how they justified Patagonia, can’t let a handful of savages get in the way of their manifest destiny.

The difference in the S Atlantic/Antarctic is that unlike Atahualpa, the British have more than just bows and arrows with which to defend their territory.

@ 155 malen
Don’t think they would allow a 12th July parade around the Vatican.
162 malen (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 09:28 pm Report abuse
The only important thing here its the solidarity of majority of countries in OAS (except you know USA and Canadá) with President Morales.
And also the condennation or rejection of what happenned, because it is very clear that sth happenned that the presidential plane had to stop in AUstria, sth no previst for Bolivia.
And the failure once more of USA that they may be spying all the individuals of the world, but are failing and failing bad diplomatically and involucrating others nations badly in a problem that is only theirs.
And british in Malvinas are impossible to be compared to Atahualpa, Morales, yes he is indegenous to this continent, but you not.
163 Clyde15 (#) Jul 09th, 2013 - 10:21 pm Report abuse
Define “ indegenous to this continent”, I presume you mean Amerindian - the original inhabitants before the Europeans arrived. Do you count them as indigenous - the bulk of Argentina's population. Most of which have only arrived within the last 100 years.
164 Elena (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 01:39 am Report abuse
160“If you are referring to the 61 convention then say so as there are many conventions signed in Vienna. Oddly it was Vienna that morales landed in that claims he is lying” So Viena decided to let him land respecting the agreetment signed on it´s soil, dont see where you get he was lying. And exactly what does it matter the number of agreetments signed on Viena? , if a country has a hundred agreetments must it comply with some and not with some others :? My point was that you were talking just about the Nazi Asylum, it´s curious how the other refugees are normaly forgotten when talking about those times.

161 Pugol-H Bolivia only want´s to know exactly what reason they did really have to keep their plane from traveling across those countries as the presumed presence of Snowden isn´t reason enough and under international law they are supposed to help heads of state planes in getting back after a bussines travel unless the head of state is being prosecuted. France already apologized but don´t give eaxct reasons as to their behavoir. And yes, I am really tired to say this, under the Viena agreetment they ARE SUPPOSED TO HELP NOT STOP A PRESIDENTIAL PLANE TO FREELY TRAVEL, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT´S GETTING BACK TO IT´S COUNTRY ,IS A FUNDAMENTAL DYPLOMATIC AGREETMENT.
165 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 09:11 am Report abuse

Mind-bogglingly arrogant,
and absolutely lacking in respect for the diplomatic conventions of the nations of the world.

Be assured Elena, the world HAS noted. These things are not forgotten.
It is just a matter of time before (eg) in-flight US body-bags filled with US body-bits are interdicted at foreign airfields, and each one searched through for illegal contraband and drugs.

Perhaps then the USA will get the message that there are just some things that you do not do.
166 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 09:27 am Report abuse
snicker snicker....latam statements get stupider by the day.
167 Elena (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 11:56 am Report abuse
“Mind-bogglingly arrogant” indeed, greetings Geoff :-)
168 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 01:26 pm Report abuse
“Mind-bogglingly arrogant,
and absolutely lacking in respect for the diplomatic conventions of the nations of the world”

Your kind have not earned repect as of yet.
169 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 01:52 pm Report abuse
'My kind' ...
presumably you mean:
a human being who is able to think for himself.

When your people conduct themselves as yours have done, you continue to deserve the title: 'Your kind'.
You may be a nice person, Poppy, but you are defending the indefensible.
170 ChrisR (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 03:28 pm Report abuse
169 GeoffWard2
“in-flight US body-bags filled with US body-bits are interdicted at foreign airfields, and each one searched through for illegal contraband and drugs.”

Now, with your reasonable head on, just read that claim again, please.

What do you think the USA would do to ANY country that did that to their dead?

Do I really need me to spell it out for you?

You are a nice person Geoff, but you are letting this nonsense get the better of you.

Nothing has been confirmed yet about the precise details other than Cowpat's word and THAT is unreasonable because he is unbelievable.
171 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 03:51 pm Report abuse
So am I to assume based on your statement that anyone who disagrees with your podition on this matter cxannot, nor does not think for yourself?

geoff, tell me what has the USA done with this metadata they've collected?
Have the democrats used it to gather up republicans and throw them out of Marine One into the Potomac?
Have they broadcast private calls (as in venezuela) of people critcal of the government?
Sometimes the means do justify the end. You have not the slightest clue of how to protect a nation.
You know what I find the most amazing......nothing has been spoken about what we have supposedly actually have done nor has it been proven. We have one guy the makes a claims, runs and hides and Latam world believes him.
However, regardless of of the data collection activity, countries that have been notified by the USA of terrorist activites certainly did not ask......“How did you get this information??”
172 ChrisR (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 04:06 pm Report abuse
171 Captain Poppy
......“How did you get this information??”

Got it in one.
173 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 04:56 pm Report abuse
Hi guys.
Re: the dog that didn't bark.

'Your kind's' illegalities are entering the public domain because they have moved beyond WAY protecting the homeland from terrorism.

The LatAms know all this and are exercised, not because of this; though this is bad enough, but because of the plane/president actions .... you just DON'T DO THAT SORT OF THING to presidents of any nation. They are, quite rightly, miffed.

Poppy, you know all this but can't bring yourself to say it is wrong.
It is wrong, and there is no loss of manliness in admitting it publically. Trolls would never admit it, but I don't think you're a troll, but you do appear to be what the SAs call a 'neoliberal', which seems to mean that the ends justify any means and anything goes.
There should be limits, and a lot of people believe that the USA has exceeded them ... hence the 'great silence' from those that normally refute such things on the hill.

I have made no assertions on the release of the US info.; quite the reverse, I have simply asked if anybody had heard what the revealed secrets actually were (still no response).
The body-bags quote in #165 was inserted to hit USA in one of their sacred cows.
This would be anathema and horrific to citizens of the USA:
similarly, other nations consider the disrespect (to say the least!) to a president is anathema and way beyond the pail.
Try to look at it from their point of view; it is not pretty.
174 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 06:59 pm Report abuse
When it goes to the UN for a hearing and I hear ALL the facts, not just the fabrications, I will state my opinion. Until then I will not say:3
He gets what he gives
He is a coke farmer
He pushes his product...DESPARATELY
I hardly feel it is disrespect. Diplomatic immunity and the airspace are not one of the same.
Spain apoligized and qualified it by saying there was no denial, indirectly calling morales a liar.
175 ChrisR (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 07:12 pm Report abuse
173 GeoffWard2

Let us concentrate on the reported 'facts' re the Cowpat and his pilots lack of competence.

Spain told the pilot that they could not accept the flight 24 HOURS before they wanted to fly. They cited ‘technical’ matters. It is irrelevant, it’s THIER airspace they can refuse ANY flight from ANY country. I do hope we can both agree on that?

Cowpat’s pilot had NO RIGHT to attempt to overfly Spanish territory given they were refused permission. You do realise that Spain would have been quite within it’s rights to SHOOT the thing down? How do they KNOW who is on that plane? It has now been confirmed that once the written undertaking by the Bolivian Foreign Minister tht Snowden was not on the plane they were given permission to land on the Canaries for refuelling. Spain now claims the Cowpat was never barred. WHO to believe?

The fuel gauges on the Falcon were then found to be unreliable and rerouted to Austria and declared an emergency (that is how things like this are handled). Austria allowed the Falcon to land and it took several hours to fix the problem.

Austria claim they never searched the plane and the Cowpat is photographed at the top of the stairs waving goodbye: would he do this if he was so upset?

Geoff, you seem fixated on what 'secrets' (if any) Snowden let out of the bag utterly illegally given his contract: it has NOTHING to do with the situation with allowing ‘presidents’ to overfly / land / fuel in other countries airspace or not.

What I find totally predictable is the dog and pony show over this twat, president or not, he IS a troublemaking twat seeking only his time in the spotlight. Well, he has gotten it now and the USA will not easily forget it.

LatAms, they just do not know how to make a benefit from this because the Cowpat and Correa in particular are so anti-America it blinds them to the opportunities.
176 Troy Tempest (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 08:16 pm Report abuse

You want to know exactly what secrets Snowden revealed.
So do we all.
I don't imagine anyone on this forum is especially privy to that classified, or recently, “de-classified” info, more than anyone else.
You can look it up on the 'net as easily as anyone else can, instead of asking someone to produce it.
177 GeoffWard2 (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 09:08 pm Report abuse
Thanks, Troy.
I didn't realise that the Secrets had been posted on the world wide web.
Last I heard was that there were 'going to be 'revelations'', but then the papers got full of Andy Murray.

I think that there WAS a link between Mr Snowdon, the Secrets, and a plane that certain people thought was taking him from Moscow to South America. But I may be suffering from 'dis-information'.

silly of me, I thought Morales was a real president. How could I have been so mis-informed!

I think I shall have to wait until all the information is publicly made available; then I will be able to have an opinion.
178 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 09:19 pm Report abuse
He's a clown
179 Pugol-H (#) Jul 10th, 2013 - 09:20 pm Report abuse
@162 malen
I am not saying they were right to do what they did, I am saying they were not legally wrong.

“they may be spying all the individuals of the world”

Yep “they” are, in this case the US, however do you really think that the US are the only ones that are spying on everyone?????

Everything you do digital is monitored by someone, somewhere, for some reason, even if only to you a send a bill.

Morales may be indigenous to S. America, but are you?????

We are talking about the S. Atlantic, no more a part of S America than the Caribbean. Simply adjacent to it.

Territory which, when the British arrived, was unexplored, uninhabited and unclaimed. At a time when Argentina was over a thousand miles away and called “The Govern ate of the River Plate”, part of the viceroyalty of Peru.

We have as much right to be in the S Atlantic, as you have to be in S America.

@164 Elena
Why! because “they” were after a fugitive, the diplomats simply got in the way.

I get the impression that “they” are quite serious about getting this man.

Diplomatic niceties, notwithstanding.

As I said “I do not say this out of any ideological belief of my own, it is merely my observations of this situation”.
180 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 11th, 2013 - 01:23 am Report abuse

I think you are quite right in all you wrote. Even more so that “they” are quite serious about getting snowden. assange should feel like an ass with him thinking that “they” wanted him when you compare they actions of “they” in each case. He knows he hid over the rape charges and nothing else.
181 Elena (#) Jul 11th, 2013 - 08:24 am Report abuse
Pugol H I already told you, even if you don´t want to understand “dyplomatic niceties” involve protection of this man, in the case, that wasn´t, for him indeed to be on the plane. There´s nothing more to be said about it. IT WAS A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, SNOWDEN WASN´T THERE AND EVEN IF HE WAS HE WOULD BE THERE UNDER DYPLOMATIC PROTECTION. This disscusion is absolutely useless. if you keep being this sturborn really.
182 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 11th, 2013 - 09:28 am Report abuse
Pugol-H give up.....Elena is an international lawyer at the UN, as all the trolls here are diplomats. Hence their absolute knowledge and why their countries lead the world.
183 Pugol-H (#) Jul 11th, 2013 - 07:17 pm Report abuse
@180 Captain Poppy
They got Saddam, they got Osama, I don’t think this poor sod has much chance at all.

Since 9/11 the reach and capabilities (in every sense) of “they” seem to have become considerable indeed. Whether this is a good thing or not will be argued both ways and judged by history no doubt.

As for Assange, UK/US extradition is possibly the easiest in the world,
Sweden is one of the most difficult countries to extradite from, even for fellow EU countries.

Yet Assange went from Sweden to UK and now doesn’t want to go back, for fear of extradition to the US!!!

Also he is still breathing, a good clue “they” are not interested.

@181 Elena
I’m still waiting for you, the Bolivians or anybody else to clarify exactly which law or treaty has been violated, i.e. does it have a name for example, or even is it one of a group of undefined laws.

He would be protected inside the plane agreed, if the plane was on the ground in say Paris, they could not have searched the plane or prevented it from taking off.

However they are under no obligation to allow the plane into their airspace in the first place, any more than they have to allow an embassy in their capital city.

I trust this clarifies things for you.
184 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 11th, 2013 - 11:28 pm Report abuse
Pugol-H I agree that history will be the final judge of actions taken since 9/11, but remember that event in itself created the world we now live in. After Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto knew the attack was a great miscalculation that only aroused something they could not handle.

As for assange, I seriously doubt the USA is after him. You are correct that he is still breathing, but it is highly doubtful that we would kill him to get him. He really broke no US laws, nothing more than the NY Times and Washington Post publishing the Pentagon Papers. Ellsberg was the real lawbreaker and would have been convicted if not for the misconduct of the Government(go figure...Nixon's administration) actions. assange knows the USA has not case and will not try him.........he deep down inside knows he fears Sweden for his sexual misconduct.
185 Pugol-H (#) Jul 12th, 2013 - 02:06 am Report abuse
@184 Captain Poppy
We may never know the answer to the question, how many 9/11s were prevented, with the release of documents over time, history will probably have a better view than us of that aspect.

“I hoped to deliver a crushing blow, instead I fear I have woken a sleeping Giant, and filled him with a terrible wroth”, I believe Admiral Yamamoto said.

Once he knew the carriers were not there.

At least Assange has given Ecuador its moment in the spotlight, still no end in sight for him though I note.
186 Captain Poppy (#) Jul 12th, 2013 - 09:30 am Report abuse
Tora, Tora, Tora....great movie. The quote is thought to be Hollywood, be he was definitely depressed after the attack knowing the Japanese cannot win. The Japanese win battles up until Midway when the Allies sank their carries and never lost a battle after Midway.

Correa regrets taking in assange. If you could turn asssange over without looking like he went back on his word I believe he would.

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