Friday, September 13th 2013 - 02:21 UTC

UPM assessed as industry leader in environmental sustainability

Finland’s energy and pulp UPM group has again been named among the world's sustainability leaders. The company has retained its position in both the Dow Jones European and World Sustainability Indices (DJSI) for 2013-2014. Furthermore, the company has been assessed as the industry leader in environmental sustainability within the Paper and Forest Products sector with top scores.

The UPM plant in Uruguay with an annual production of 1.1 million tons of pulp

“We are extremely pleased that our work on corporate responsibility has again been recognised. The foundation for corporate responsibility at UPM is the company's Biofore strategy. Innovation plays a key role in developing resource-efficient solutions for a more sustainable world. For instance, we are building the world's first biorefinery to produce second-generation renewable diesel in Finland. We aim to become a major player in Europe in the production of renewable, high quality advanced biofuels”, says Jussi Pesonen, CEO, UPM.

”In the area of social responsibility, we have focused on work safety. Our safety initiative launched at the beginning of 2012 has resulted in exceptional success. UPM's global Lost Time Accident Frequency (LTAF) has decreased by more than 40% in less than 2 years”, added Jussi Pesonen.

The annual Corporate Sustainability Assessment is conducted by an investment specialist RobecoSAM, and is based on a rigorous analysis of economic, environmental and social performance of the world's leading companies, assessing issues covering climate change strategies, supply chain standards, labour practices, corporate governance and risk management. The DJSI follows a best-in-class approach, recognising companies across all industries that outperform their peers in sustainability metrics.

UPM leads the integration of bio and forest industries into a new, sustainable and innovation-driven future. Our products are made of renewable raw materials and are recyclable. UPM consists of three Business Groups: Energy and pulp, Paper, and Engineered materials. The Group employs around 22,000 people. UPM is present in 67 countries and has production units in 17 countries. UPM annual sales exceed EUR 10 billion. UPM shares are listed on the Helsinki stock exchange.www.upm.com
 

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1 Conqueror (#) Sep 13th, 2013 - 10:03 am Report abuse
Wow! “the company has been assessed as the industry leader in environmental sustainability within the Paper and Forest Products sector with top scores.” Get that? “Industry leader”. And this is the company that argieland would like the world to believe has dropped all its standards to operate a mill in Uruguay. Hands up all those who believe that well-known liar, argieland. Important point here; if you do not state the country where you reside your “vote” will not be counted.
2 redp0ll (#) Sep 13th, 2013 - 10:51 am Report abuse
www.elobservador.com.uy/noticia/259973/argentina-sube-la-presion/
Perhaps UPM should publish thier own results on pollution monitoring from thier factory into the Rio Uruguay. By doing so CARU would either have to accept them or refute them by publishing thier own results which so far they have not done so owing to the intransigence of the Argentine delegates on CARU
3 ChrisR (#) Sep 13th, 2013 - 02:55 pm Report abuse
UPM ARE world leaders in pulp manufacture and other, wood and succulent based pulps.

There laboratory procedures have international approval and all their test equipment is regularly calibrated to the appropriate international standards.

So what does this mean:

1) ALL the water samples taken for test will be correctly sampled for the time and location as specified;

2) The testing of the samples will be done strictly in accordance with the written procedures and can then be related to the results from all the other samples of this type;

3) The data will be as found and not subject to any unauthorised modifications.

Compare that with CARU and indeed Uruguay. Does anyone believe there are standardised written procedures, calibrated testing equipment, even CLEAN collection vessels all traceable to international standards? Of course not. AND even these two outfits found that the results were within acceptable limits. How do we know the argie tests were acceptable: they would have cried blue murder if they had ANY evidence to the contrary.
4 Stevie (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 04:52 am Report abuse
Then Chris, if you really have Uruguayan well-being in mind, why is it you agree on letting UPM increase their pulp production instead of pulling for that added value production in form of paper?
Instead of raw materials we send them half processed goods...
5 ChrisR (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 08:05 am Report abuse
4 Stevie

That is very, very simple to answer IF you can answer this:

What type of paper should the paper mill (not yet built or even thought of?) manufacture?

Newsprint?
Laid or woven?
‘Glossy’ and what type of filler?
Archive?

I won’t tax you with the quantities of each.

You see Stevie all these papers require totally different paper mills. Newsprint requires at least 50 – 75% of recycled paper to stabilise the process (newsprint is very poor paper) and is NEVER made along with other papers. Likewise glossy and the others, though I do know of one plant in the UK that makes laid and woven in the same mill.

The pulp process using one base such as succulents is a massive undertaking and needs to be monitored and controlled at each stage. Many grades of pulp are required to fulfil the needs of the customer and each is designed for the industry it satisfies. Pulp for Kleenex products is not only a particular strata of the pulp but a different plan size: just think what this means when you have a massive undertaking like that on the Plate. I would imagine that they have a process line just for Kimberley Clark world wide, they use that much pulp.

I agree to the increase because that is the DESIGN SIZE of the plant. The cunts in The Dark Country KNEW that all along but they consistently demonstrate a total lack of business acumen: if a plant is operating BELOW capacity the costs are higher. Alternatively (and I think this is it) they just want to fuck their “brothers” in Uruguay. Situation normal then.

The question really is “why do you NOT want the plant to succeed and even accept that the argies have ANY right to stick their noses in?”
6 yankeeboy (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 08:50 am Report abuse
It is almost impossible that Stevie knows less about business process than economics.
Socialist/Communists should all go against the wall the world would be a better place.
7 Stevie (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 10:17 am Report abuse
Chris
You just gave me tons of arguments as to why we should invest in added value paper production instead of doing the dirty work for the Finnish.

My question to you was why we should increasingly do the dirty work for the Finnish when we could invest in added value production.

It has nothing at all to do with Argentina.
Matter of fact, I could not care less what people in Argentina has to say about this matter.
8 redp0ll (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 10:23 am Report abuse
Chris I would take issue with the veracity of the scientific analyises done by the Uruguayan government institutions. These are generally very well carried out and have the trust of most world bodies concerned in this field
I think DINAMA samples the water regularly on thier own account and the samples are sent to Canada for processing so they do have a check on what CARU samples contain, apart from what UPM does itself
So the so called green Guaylequaychu rentamob wants to interfere in what happens on the Rio Negro. a river totally within Uruguayan terretory.Perhaps this gives Uruguay the right to complain about all the stinking factories on which discharge thier stench into tributaries of the Rio Uruguay which are located on Argentine land?
9 ChrisR (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 01:08 pm Report abuse
@ 7 Stevie

You are not suggesting I hope that the government operate a paper mill or heaven forbid a number of mills to satisfy the types of paper in common use?

With the exception of ANTEL who know what they are doing the rest of the monopolies operated in Uruguay are pitifully badly run for the public, but not for the 'Directors'. Your mate at ANCAP is a classic example.

Your attitude with “do the dirty work for the Finnish” astonishes me. I know you cannot make up your mind what a commie is compared to a socialist but by what criteria do you say this nonsense?

Please tell me the amount of money that Uruguay INVESTED in the mill?

Did the Finns NOT pay for all the construction and the land? Have they not paid the prohibitive taxes that go with operating any private business in Uruguay? Do they not pay the workers a fairly good wage compared to the rest of the Uruguayan businesses, never mind the pittance paid by the government?

There is NO dirty work to do; the plant was specified for operating within the specification as a DESIGN SIZE. The Finns are quite within their rights to DEMAND the increase (did you see how I brought Argie bollocks into that?).

Uruguay are most fortunate to have another mill of this type about to start up. Instead of putting massive problems in the way of the existing one until after the Argie elections (WTF has that got to do with Uruguay) your clearly ill commie mate Pepe should stand aside now and let someone who is educated and experienced do the job.

@ 8 redp0ll
“Chris I would take issue with the veracity of the scientific analysis done by the Uruguayan government institutions. These are generally very well carried out and have the trust of most world bodies concerned in this field”

Two things here:
NEED TO WAIT FOR ANOTHER POSTER TO RELEASE ME.
10 Stevie (#) Sep 14th, 2013 - 04:07 pm Report abuse
Chris
You insist with Argentina.
What I'm talking about has little to do with Argentina, if anything.
And I would appreciate if you just answered instead of telling me how bad our neighbour are seen with your glasses (you fail to realize we've been here longer than 2007...)

Let me repeat myself, for the sake of keeping the process aerobic.

Do you, as a soon to be Uruguayan, think that we should increase the pulp production, killing off land as a result of the eucalyptus, contaminating Rio Uruguay even if the results are within some limits?

Or do you think we should go for added value, as in paper for whatever purpose, and not only produce enviromental hazardous stuff just because nobody else wants to?
11 ChrisR (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 08:03 am Report abuse
10 Stevie

Of course I insist with The Dark Country and it’s not just my “glasses”, but anyway.

You seen to think that planting succulents is somehow damaging the environment by their utilising water. Any evidence for this, if so please put the link up or shut up. What would be growing, if anything, before the succulents and does it matter. We have, courtesy of another argie, thousands of hectares of olive trees which despoil the view all the way from Ruta 9 to Minas. I know from personal knowledge this land was used for beef, now we have poxy little olive trees, the stunted version.

You seem to misunderstand or do not know that EVERY activity of man creates pollution. A correctly run pulp mill like this with full internal controls which ensure the full utilisation of the chemicals (so they exhaust) probably produces less contamination in chemical term than if you had a piddle in the river at the point of water sampling.

The paper situation in my judgement is a no starter. Paper mills are VERY chemically intensive at all stages up to calendaring (which produces the paper in fully wet form) and need an effluent treatment plant because the chemicals used do not react with one another in the same way to create exhaustion. Pulp mills have a non-process effluent plant which is only used in cases of emergency to ensure compliance of the outfall.

Another problem with paper mills is that the market is saturated with over capacity, especially in newsprint but that is low added value and where would the ROU get the waste paper from? I suppose they could sell some to Venezuela. The very high added value glossy papers are VERY tricky to produce and require glaze components and binder chemicals far worse than anything in a pulp mill. I do not understand the term “as in paper for whatever purpose”, all papers are made specially.
NEED TO CONTINUE
12 Stevie (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 08:18 am Report abuse
As a sidenote

www.lr21.com.uy/economia/1129478-exportaciones-de-carnes-uruguayas-representan-casi-2-mil-millones-de-dolares

Uruguay exported meat for almost 2B dollars, that's 2 Billion dollars, at 3800 dollars/ton. 3800 dollars per ton!
That's amazing :)

Continue...
13 ChrisR (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 09:12 am Report abuse
@ 12 Stevie THANKS

The beef comment proves my point about those bleeding awful olive trees!

Cont.
Your statement “not only produce environmental hazardous stuff just because nobody else wants to?” is wrong on two counts:
1) there is NO environmental problem with the pulp mill;

2) Uruguay was chosen for the supply of succulents that could be provided on a sufficient scale to feed a mill of this size. Not every country can do that, though every country would want the mill and the taxes it pays and the number of people it employs.

REDPOLL

1) “Generally well carried out” does not cut it when you are considering important testing and laboratory work. They either comply or they fail.

I was a representative for the UK to the IEC and the ISO for more than six years and sat on the management committees which decided these matters, as well as being an IQA Registered Lead Assessor of Quality Systems in additional to my professional engineering qualifications.

Perhaps “generally” was your own use of the language.

2) “Presidential Decree 285/97 created the Uruguayan System for Accreditation, Standardization, Certification, Calibration and Testing (SUANCCE), which consists of a National Council, the Uruguayan Accreditation Body (OUA) and the National Standardization Body (UNIT), which is responsible for the development of the standards and guides on which the system is based.” (UNIT splash page).

I cannot find any completed, published standards listed that fulfil this Decree, though it may just be the vagaries of the ROU government website. ALL other reputable countries use “ISO/IEC 17025:2005
General requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories (as reviewed and confirmed in 2010)” as their standard. This has been ISO translated into Spanish.

ISO approved assessment bodies (the OUA) WILL NOT approve Laboratories if the National Standard does not comply with the ISO version in all respects.

If Uruguay cannot provide accredited laboratory
14 redp0ll (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 11:03 am Report abuse
This discussion is becoming interesting ; without the usual mudslinging which is a change and both Stevei and Chris have raised some interesting points
I wont pretend to combat Chrises erudition as an engineer and a legal eagle in Uruguayan legislation but lets be practical. Uruguayan practices are TRUSTED internationally
As a farmer it is a satisfaction that our beef fetches some of the highest prices on the international market and this is because we do things right.
There are 12 million cows and in this country and every single one is electronically tagged so that any Uruguayan steak that a housewife buys in the supermarket in Milton Keynes can be traced right back to the farm that grew it. Not only that with a bit of research she can find out what standards of employee and animal welfare are used on that farm. OK, SNIG has had some teething problems but what new technology does not?
In spite of considerable areas being taken out of beef farming for forestry and arable farming, farmers have learned to live in a new symbiosis with these tendencies and beef production efficieny has not only increased numericically but in efficiency
As for your comment Chris on olive plantations I couldnt care a tinkers if he is Argentine: indeed I would applaud his good sense in investing in Uruguay
Some time ago I visted a farm run by a Spaniard in Paysandu who ran his citrus, olive and beef farm as an integrated enterprize on environmentally friendly lines. Good luck to him I say
Pollution. As you say every human activity is polluting . The greens might complain about the 12 million farting bovines in ROU that contribute to greenhouse gases. But we have all that forestry that absorbs CO2. So is Urugay carbon nneutral or negative?
I dont know
Yes I do think the eucalypt forestry does deplete subterrainean soil water but most research on this subject seems to be have done in Australia. Do you have a link on this for Uruguay?
Industrial pollution. Run out of space but will continue
15 ChrisR (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 12:05 pm Report abuse
@14 Redpoll

Please continue
16 Stevie (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 01:23 pm Report abuse
As for the pulp mill, all I can say is that the big difference between the Nordic mills and this one, is that the Nordic ones dumps their waste 3 km out in the Baltic ocean. We spit it out in Rio Uruguay. Another fact is the nature of the eucalyptus, although not invasive, as it doesn't reproduce itself in exceptional manner, it is fast growing. And an every fast growing plant it needs water. And as any tree it needs loads of it. This affects the competitiveness of the surrounding fauna, making the eucalyptus form islands as we know them.

As for the question of added value production, I think it's crucial that every country at least produces what it can in order to be self sufficient.
This for two reasons. Job guarantee and environmental issues.
17 redp0ll (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 01:51 pm Report abuse
OK Chris. I have been keeping a watch on the environmental activities of our only gold mine in Uruguay Orosur for the past 30 years which uses the cynadide process for mineral separation, an extremely deadly poison (shades of Agatha Christie!)
At the time I was in correspondence with New Zealand friends about a similar mine at Millers Flat in Otago. The environmental mining protocols were much stiffer in ROU than NZ and I think as a result many of the Uruguayan environmental stipulations were incoroparated in the NZ mineral code
Orosur had a permanent officer on thier staff to monitor possible pollution and wild life conservation appointed by DINAMA
No cyanide pollution has ever been detected and added to which the spent cynide dams and spoil heaps have been converted into a wild life sanctuary with a herd of deer and even a an anteater (tamandua) , an animal which was thought extinct in this area since 1934 recolonizing the area. If you want more info contact Orosur offices in Carrasco and they would be only too pleased to show what they are doing
As an incomer perhaps you shuold appreciate that in Uruguay we do do some things right, though it doesnt always make the news
18 Stevie (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 03:48 pm Report abuse
redpoll
As for the meat, 2B in exports is awesome, but it breaks my heart to know the country has the capacity of such an output and then not finding anything but asado when going to the butcher...
It's ok to sell for maximum profit, but we should tend to the Uruguayans first.
19 ChrisR (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 05:10 pm Report abuse
@ 16 Stevie

I only have knowledge of some UK pulp mills and was for a time a senior executive for a group which made chopped glass fibre strand cement “slates” for roofing. Before our group bought the plant as an aside to the real deal of clay brick plants, it used asbestos as the fibre agent. We were really popular with the local council when we announced the change! The process was the good old mixer and calendaring technique used for the production of papers (you just knew that I had experience of something like it I bet).

The UPM group have three pulp mills, two in Finland and the one at Fray Bentos which is their flagship plant and with good reason: it is recognised as the leading plant world-wide.

The case for and against eucalyptus is poorly supported by scientific research outside of desert applications OTHER THAN they take less water than growing Pines.

The mill produces, as a by-product of the heat in the process, its own electricity which is used for all the plant, the bleach chemical production area and it sells 170 kWhr/ADt to the UTE grid (ADt is air dried tonne of pulp). I would imagine that UTE would prefer to buy ALL the electricity from UPM! :o)

@17 Redpoll
“As an incomer perhaps you should appreciate that in Uruguay we do some things right, though it doesn’t always make the news”

Never doubted it! The ONLY thing I am DAMN SURE of is that as long as the dead hand of monopolistic government companies are kept strictly out of the process it will be fine.

And here we have the examples, UPM and Orosur. The figures for limits on contamination would have been developed jointly by ROU scientists and the technical department of each company. How do I know that so convincingly? Have you ever tried involving the likes of Pepe with a subject such as the cyanidation process? Believe me; it’s like knitting with spaghetti!

Good to see the land / water reclamation is encouraging wildlife back to the area. :o)
20 redp0ll (#) Sep 15th, 2013 - 05:51 pm Report abuse
STEVIE, Suggest you change your butcher! a A good steak is expensie in ROU but not half as much as in Kenya where I was recently or in UK where you get served something the size of a large postage stamp with a lot of poncey trimmings which would not keep a self respecting fly alive.
At least here you get something which is value for money and satisfies then stomach
21 Stevie (#) Sep 16th, 2013 - 01:19 am Report abuse
Chris
That's all great, but not greater than it should be a demand for every newly built plant to produce it's own electricity and heating.
I still think Uruguay should go for added value, if only for not having to import the expensive stuff and have a go a selv-sufficiency.

Redpoll
Lomo at the butcher's? Sorry man, but I fail to locate it every time.
La pasiva has plenty of it though...
22 redp0ll (#) Sep 16th, 2013 - 12:49 pm Report abuse
Stevie La Pssiva is a bit too pricey for me!
Bowing to Chrises argument on the impractibility of a pulp mill in Uruguay I tend to agree with him, apart from which I think a paper mill would be much more pollutant than the present pulp factories. BTW Chris the paragon of the industry you quote, Kimberley Clark at Barrow in Furness seems to have had quite a few glitches in fires and industrial accidents
Stevie, as Chris mentions UPM not only generates its own power but sells what is surplus to thier requirements to UTE and I understand the Montes del Plata will be doing the same when it comes on stream
Other plants do export semi finished products. Weyerhouser exporting finished boards for prefabricated housing and I think FYMNSA does likewise and I think both sell excess power to UTE. The frigorifico at Tacuarembo has its own woods to power its wood fired furnesses and added to which processes its waste prducts into biodiesel at a nieghbouring plant
You say any new industrial enterprize should produce its own power but some cannot owing to the nature of thier activities, Orosur being an example as the largest single consumer of electricity in Uruguay. Some years ago they tried to come to an agreement with FYMNSA to take thier excess power but the canon that UTE was going to charge for transmission made that idea financially inviable
23 Stevie (#) Sep 16th, 2013 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
redpoll
Chris knows that I know that self-sufficiency of electricity is a piece of cake in any kind of energy-processing plant, just about all of them.
Chris knows there is so much more to it. Flue gas cleansing, district heating, recycling of energy.
Give me the equipment and I build you a plant that spits nothing but Water from the chimney.
And Chris knows that producing your own electricity is a requirement rather than an achievement.
24 ChrisR (#) Sep 16th, 2013 - 05:58 pm Report abuse
23 Stevie

Really? Please provide the evidence that it is a requirement to produce your own electricity.

And yes, you can make water come out of chimneys, but can you make a profit? Please don’t say 1 g of CO2 is 1 g too much.
25 Stevie (#) Sep 16th, 2013 - 06:28 pm Report abuse
Well Chris, forced oxidation in sulphur emmitting plant is a perfect example.

In other plants, a production of district heating together with a plan of functionality could mean that the energy could be used in its many phases, also taking into account heat exchanging for cooling and heating.
You know, as in using both sides of the fridge...
Furthermore, the heat can be used as preheating or drying in processes that require such. As in the making of biogas out of waste water, for example

It's not a legal requirement Chris, it's a moral one.
26 ChrisR (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 11:31 am Report abuse
@ 25 Stevie

OK, let's just try this (there is NO catch):

There is a closed room, no windows, and it is a marvel of insulation in that there are no thermal losses through walls, door and ceiling.

There is a power point in which is plugged a big fridge with its' door wide open.

Now the question is a very simple one: is there any change in room temperature and why?

Please try to answer without using Google, etc.
27 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 11:40 am Report abuse
Chris, that's an easy one...
If the condensator is inside the insulated room, it will add the same effect that the evaporator subtracts from the room, and the only added effect will be the effect the compressor delivers, not counting other heat sources such as lamps and persons in the room

;)
28 ChrisR (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 03:26 pm Report abuse
27 Stevie

I did not say anthing about lamps and people. No interference to what is going on.

Read the question again and think about it from an elemental sense.

The answer is VERY easy if you do not complicate it.
29 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 05:20 pm Report abuse
I already answered you Chris.
You need me to translate it?
Here it goes.
If we remove all other heat sources, as lamps and people (which you did), there will be a slight raise in temperature in the room as a product of the effect delivered by the compressor.
This rise in temperature would, depending on the size of the room, most surely be measurable, but you would most certainly not be able to tell the difference (should the room not be too small).

Why is the difference not bigger?

This is because the cooling side of the fridge, the one you opened, has an evaporator that sucks energy from the environment, but at the same time you have a condensator on the other side of the fridge that delievers the exact same amount of energy that the evaporator subtracts, hence the sum is zero.
30 redp0ll (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 06:21 pm Report abuse
Oh dear we seem to have got in a lesson in physics which is a long way from the original topic. On this or another thread a passing reference was made to wind energy farms of which one is being constucted at Peralta near Paso de los Toros. Looking at the production of the 25 turbines estimates of power production seem to vary from anything from 50Mw to 100Mw. I presume when the wind isnt blowing the output is nil. I would invite views as to whether this sort of of power generation is economically viable IN URUGUAY
31 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
redpoll
It is quite viable indeed.
The trick lays in putting the farms in such a way that you aren't dependant on wind in a certain area, but always have as many turbines going as possible.
The landscape of Uruguay is perfect for the cause, and together with hydro, eolic could ensure Uruguay an almost self-sufficiency in energy.
A wind turbine is not that expensive compared to its life expectancy and output, and unless the wind stops for 10 years out of 20 (the life expectancy of a normal turbine), your numbers should be black...
32 redp0ll (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 07:01 pm Report abuse
I am not at all sure about the conomics and indeed whether they have been sited in the right location; perhaps on the basalt escarpment would be more efficient where there is usually a standing wave on even the calmest days. As apaisano bruto one only has to watch how the birds take advantage of it as well as in a more modern context glider enthusiasts
33 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
And as usually, as a paisano, you are right.
Don't worry, calculations on ground, wind direction, rotation and average wind velocity are made before choosing the correct place to put them.
You need to see them as a tool to gather the energy that is all around us, and as a paisano, you'll be happy investing in one for your ranchito. It's rumoured that UTE pays 1:1 for selling to the grid...
34 ChrisR (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 08:34 pm Report abuse
29 Stevie

Wrong, you can only have zero sum energy if you had perfect, 100% efficiency.

If you had done an elemental evaluation you would have seen it for yourself:
the key was the electrical lead!!!!!

There is always SOME electricity flowing down the lead to ensure the system works, THAT is what HEATS the room: the temperature OF THE ROOM INCREASES.

I realised this was probably how you thought when you said you can have heat (either hot or cold) from both sides of a refrigeration system.

What you were describing is the old holy grail of alchemists down the centuries: the perpetual motion machine – it doesn’t and can never exist.

Please don’t talk about in a vacuum with air bearings like all the others, because they can’t see it either.

ALL mechanical / chemical systems CANNOT balance, there WILL to be an energy loss. Simple as that!

@ 32 Redpoll

You are correct. Windmills are the biggest con trick ever perpetuated on the uneducated.

Stevie is misleading himself when he says they are not that expensive. First of all the costs shown do not include whole life costs from raw material into a finished mill, fitted on-site and operating including the cable runs.

Secondly they woefully inefficient. The UK has several thousands of the useless things and they contribute SEVEN PERCENT of their rated output to the grid. This can be checked by accessing one of the electricity providers websites because they have to provide the number by law.

Also they regularly lose the transmissions which are caned by the inertia of the blade set vs the demand load. The trannies regularly set on fire when the wind blows really hard and the control gear cannot cope.

I could go on, but I have posted the FULL facts at least three times before.

BTW UTE have bought a full-service supply for about double the cost of hydo: but they won’t be lumbered with the maintenance that way. Still damned expensive AND they will kill the birds.
35 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 08:54 pm Report abuse
”If we remove all other heat sources, as lamps and people (which you did), there will be a slight raise in temperature in the room as a product of the effect delivered by the compressor.”

That current you are talking about, Chris. The one that heats the room up.
What does it feed?
Yes, Chris. Exactly.
The compressor...

And comparing the amount of electricity used in the UK to the amount needed in Uruguay is really mis-leading, 7% of UK consumption is about.. let me Google this, one sec... 7% of 344.7 TWh/y = 24.1 TWh/y.

About 3 times the total electricity demand in Uruguay...
36 ChrisR (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 09:27 pm Report abuse
35 Stevie

Come on, you know better than this. The compressor does not run all the time. If as you erroneous claim the thing balanced the temperature of the room would not increase and there would be NO electricity going into the room AT ANY TIME.

Wrong again. The 7% is the total amount of yield from the declared yield (the rating plate yield).

So a mill with 100 MW output rating WILL AT BEST GIVE 7%. And that is with all the siting surveys, off axis alignment, etc, etc.

The offshore farms do better: it's 18%, yes EIGHTEEN POXY PERCENT.

And let’s not overlook the fact that the whole life cost: manufacturing, transportation, installation, maintenance, alternator replacement, gearbox replacement and the eventual reduction of the site when the thing is time expired IS GREATER THAN IT WILL EVER PRODUCE IN ELECTRICITY VALUE OVER THE ENTIRE LIFE OF THE THING!

Talk about snake oil salesmen, but there again they are selling to the idiots in government and the “greens” who cannot work things out for themselves.

And we can expect some lively scenes:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nSB1SdVHqQ overspeed destruction.

www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=rkGXoE3RFZ8&feature=endscreen machinery head fire.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppLh5pGX3qQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1 compilation of disasters.

Britain, at last, is waking up to the nonsense that is wind power and removing the government subsidies that make it profitable for the manufacturer. This has resulted in a big reduction of future sites.

Don’t get me started on the other old chestnut of electric vehicles: now THAT is a real snake pit to entrap the gullible.
37 Stevie (#) Sep 17th, 2013 - 09:55 pm Report abuse
Chris
This is quite amusing...
Look, if you open the fridge door, I can assure you the compressor will run constantly, as there is a thermostate telling it to do so until the temeperature in the fridge drops to a certain degree, but as your door is open...
As for the heat loss, ALL the loss is generated in the compressor (and possibly that small light source inside the fridge) as there isn't nothing else in the damn room that requires electricity.
The only thing that I claimed was balanced out was the effect absorbed by the evaporator vs the effect delivered by the condensator, which is a fact.

As for the Wind mills, sorry to confuse you with those 7%, I just used your numbers on a quick calculation.
According to various sources, the Wind power capacity in the UK is about 5% top.
That will never happen, I agree, but lets see the real numbers.

www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

I agree the demand is low now, but at this very moment, 3% of the UK demand, is being delivered by Wind power.

If this beautiful UK evening is representative for the Whole year, and we would choose to project the numbers on Uruguayan demand (see where I'm going, old man? Keep up now...) we would have 0.03 * 344,7 TWh/y = 10.3 TWh/year.

Uruguayan demand is roughly 8 TWh/year...
38 ChrisR (#) Sep 18th, 2013 - 04:39 pm Report abuse
37 Stevie

OK, I will have to be brutal here because you are just not understanding the tips I am giving to you.
You wrote (among other incorrect things:
“The only thing that I claimed was balanced out was the effect absorbed by the evaporator vs the effect delivered by the condenser (sic), which is a fact.”

Now let’s look at that elementally in a simple household refrigerator: the evaporator absorbs heat but is impeded by something called the “thin film effect” which is the air to be cooled cannot pass all the heat it needs to give up in one go and some refrigerant is not heated to the allowable circuit temperature (near to boiling for best efficiency) in one pass and a small amount of energy is lost at that point (1). That IS a fact (it’s called efficiency loss).

Now look at the where a pump is used to compress any vapour in the heated refrigerant thus making it superheated (above the boiling point of the refrigerant) as it approaches the condenser. Pumps are notoriously inefficient. Firstly there are losses in the pump motor (bearings, electrical field losses and the air resistance due to the relatively rough shape of the rotor) (2) then there are the pumping losses themselves (bearings, rotating losses, etc) (3).

NOW we come to the condenser where the superheated fluid / vapour is condensed into liquid (to all intents but at the microscopic level NOT) and here again we have the thin film effect but much worse due to the higher temperature involved (4). This is collected into the receiver (a tank for liquid if you like) and stays there before the process starts all over again.

Then we come to the second most important component: (after the compressor) the expansion valve. This is like deflating a bike tyre by removing the valve core. The resultant escaping air is cold as is the really hot refrigerant.

Need to carry on for another para.
39 Stevie (#) Sep 18th, 2013 - 05:56 pm Report abuse
Chris
Don't be foolish.
How can you have a loss in energy when you haven't delivered any to the refrigerant?
The only part that requires an external input of effect, is the compressor (or 'pump' as you prefer to call it), hence ALL loss in efficiency happens in the same.
The losses you experience in the closed circuit that sustains the refrigerant is countered by a more or less compression, together with the regulating valves (even their losses are compensated by the compression), hence the effect delivered by the compressor mirrores the total loss.
Efficiency is the relation between input and output effect, but not so in a heat exchanger. Why do you think this is?
Let me spare you some wiki-moments;
It's because it's a system that takes from one side and gives to the other, and then back again, and as the circuit is closed, and you are working with pressure, the changes of temperature are the side effect of different boiling temperatures at different pressure.
But all you do is to deliver that pressure, and make sure there is flow in the system.
You are on the right track, but you need to close that circuit and ask yourself where that supposed energy loss goes...

Let me give you an example.
Lets say the evaparator doesn't evaporate the Whole thing -> liquid in the compressor -> Fail.
Lets say the evaporator superheats a bit over the top -> temp valve will bypass the evaporator to right temp -> Problem solved.
What else... Condensator not subcooling (which is the norm) -> Evaporation will happen already in the throttle valve -> Superheating -> temp valve -> Problem solved (fix the condensator though, throttle valve is taking damage).
And lastly, condensator too effective in subcooling -> .... why the hell would you have an overdimensioned condensator for in the first place???
40 ChrisR (#) Sep 18th, 2013 - 06:16 pm Report abuse
39 Stevie

I cannot help you Stevie.

All I can do is recommend you attend a good thermodynamics course which will straighten these “concepts” out for you because I cannot do it in 2000 spaces.

Just remember one thing: “energy can neither be created or destroyed”.

When you really understand the concepts behind that you will see where you are mistaken.

This will work for the windmills as well.

Sorry!
41 Stevie (#) Sep 18th, 2013 - 06:20 pm Report abuse
My good friend, it's simple thermodynamics, no courses needed.
See it like this, should the refrigerant add more or less heat to the environment than it subtracts, we would've had to build refridgerators and freezers with external heat/cooling sources in order to maintain a balance.
I promise you mate, the ONLY effect added to a fridge is the one added to the compressor.

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