Wednesday, October 23rd 2013 - 16:40 UTC

German Catholics can only remain in the Church if they pay membership tax, rules court

Germany's Roman Catholics can only remain part of the Church if they pay a membership tax, a court has ruled. All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax, worth an extra 8-9% of their income tax bill.

The German church levy was introduced in 1803 in compensation for the nationalization of religious property

This had been challenged by a retired law professor who said he wanted to remain a Catholic but not pay the tax. Last week, a new bishops' decree warned that anyone not paying the tax would be denied the right to religious rites. The German church levy was introduced in 1803 in compensation for the nationalization of religious property.

In 2011, the Catholic Church received 5bn Euros and the Protestant Church 4.5bn Euros from taxpayers, each adding up to the bulk of the churches' income, the BBC's Berlin correspondent Stephen Evans said.

He added that this arrangement, whereby the state collects taxes on behalf of religious groups and then reimburses them, was unusual in Western secular societies.

Hartmut Zapp, a retired professor of church law, filed a legal challenge in 2007, arguing that under Catholic doctrine, Church membership was determined by a person's beliefs and not by a financial relationship. The Freiburg University academic said he wanted to continue praying and receiving Holy Communion without paying the religious levy.

Judges at the Leipzig Federal Administrative Court, however, disagreed with Prof Zapp and ruled that there could not be partial Church membership. Their verdict follows a new bishops' decree issued last week, according to which anyone failing to pay the tax will no longer have the right to Holy Communion and religious burial.

Already alarmed by declining congregation numbers, the bishops were also pushed into action by Mr Zapp's legal challenge. They said refusal to pay Church tax should be seen as a serious act against the community.

Catholics make up around 30% of Germany's population but the number of congregants leaving the church swelled to 181,000 in 2010, with the increase blamed on revelations of sexual abuse by German priests.

“This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church,” Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.

Unless they pay the religious tax, Catholics will no longer be allowed receive sacraments, except before death, or work in the church and its schools or hospitals.

Without a “sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused”, the decree states. Opting out of the tax would also bar people from acting as godparents to Catholic children.

“This decree at this moment of time is really the wrong signal by the German bishops who know that the Catholic church is in a deep crisis,” said Christian Weisner from the grassroots Catholic campaign group We Are Church.

But a priest from Mannheim in south-western Germany, Father Lukas Glocker, said the tax was used to do essential good works.

“With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things.”

While the decree severely limits active participation in the German Catholic Church, it does hold out some hope for anyone considering a return to the fold.

Until now, any German Catholic who stopped payment faced eventual excommunication. Although the measures laid out in the decree are similar to excommunication from the church, German observers say the word is carefully avoided in the decree.
 

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1 Brasileiro (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 04:52 pm Report abuse
Not true. Mercopress forgotten many other information. Sought only what was necessary for their interests.
2 reality check (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 04:57 pm Report abuse
Bloody hell, pay your tax or be excommunicated!

Didn't their man Jesus have a run in with money lenders in the temple?

Wonder what he has to say about this?
3 Brasileiro (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 05:08 pm Report abuse
Simple. Here in Brazil the people who do not produce are called “AGIOTAS”. So, Jesus said to live without speculation, because is not good for the men.

The value of things is in things, not on paper currency buying.
4 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 05:14 pm Report abuse
Why the hell does the government get involved in religion in the first place?

For starters, it one more set of hands having to handle money the the religious ones should be able to give directly to their church and not through their government's greedy little hands first.
There is no place for a theocratic government in the western world. Go to the middle east with the rest of them if they want a theocratic government.
5 A_Voice (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 05:33 pm Report abuse
So what happens if you are on holiday or visiting Germany and you pop into a church for sacrament.......a one off visitors fee?

although....what does the bible say...
Leviticus 27:30 (ESV)
30 “Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord.
and..

2 Chronicles 31:5 (ESV)
5 As soon as the command was spread abroad, the people of Israel gave in abundance the firstfruits of grain, wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field. And they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything.
6 screenname (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 06:14 pm Report abuse
I thought this looked like old news

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581
7 willi1 (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 06:58 pm Report abuse
”With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things.”

For kindergarden, shools and salaries of priests they get additional money from the state.
just now: a bishop in Limburg/Germany spent minimum 31 million euros to renew his bishop´s castle. he was together with the pope Franziskus yesterday in rome and was set out of office for a while but has not been fired.
it is said that part of the tax money for the catholic church goes into black cash-boxes. it´s a pretty criminal gang in black and red robes.
8 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 07:09 pm Report abuse
God has come a long way to start charging entrance fees.....not to mention tax collectors.

“They began to accuse him, saying, ”We found this man perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king.” - Luke 23:2
9 Brasileiro (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 07:12 pm Report abuse
Continued: Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlTm-xG3pO0
10 ChrisR (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 08:18 pm Report abuse
IT'S A GOD TAX!

PMSL.

Now be a good bunch of Krauts and pay up or God will send a little devil especially for you, her name is Merkel!
11 willi1 (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 08:34 pm Report abuse
@10: no problem for Angie, she will cope with him.
12 Brasileiro (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 08:59 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
13 ChrisR (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 09:26 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
14 Brasileiro (#) Oct 23rd, 2013 - 09:36 pm Report abuse
Technology never sleeps.

hahaha

God does not.
15 Casper (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:26 am Report abuse
So do German churches and other places of worship also have collection plates/processes? 8% - 9% on top of income tax and donations? Being a believer must be very expensive in Deutschland.
16 willi1 (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 07:24 am Report abuse
@15: 8-9% of the income TAX, not on the earnings. but: too expensive as well.
17 ManRod (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:03 am Report abuse
George Carlin sums it up quite well :)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
18 ChrisR (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:13 am Report abuse
17 ManRod

Very succint!

LMAO
19 tezza (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:15 am Report abuse
If one wants to believe in the supernatural and fairy stories, one must pay...

The tooth fairy, Santa and tarot readers don't get state help, why should the biggest scammers of all get anything?
20 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:30 am Report abuse
Haha Chris the atheist ...shame about the name..

.....meaning of the name Christopher is: He who holds Christ in his heart.
21 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:50 am Report abuse
The quickest way to stripping religion from the nation that I have ever heard of!

Thinks ... CFK may use it to keep her country solvent.
22 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 01:55 pm Report abuse
It must be wonderful to believe in nothing...
Animals have no beliefs...
Dreams and beliefs have dragged the stone age into the 21st century and aided in the progression of man to reach for the stars in his/her search for god.
Even science calls the Higgs Boson the God Particle....
It's no wonder that, of the 7 Billion population of the world, atheists amount to an insignificant 2%
Welcome to the insignificant club....He who holds Christ in his heart....

...Hope springs eternal in the human breast...(Pope)

The CIA's World Factbook gives the world population as 7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.) and the distribution of religions as Christian 31.59% (of which Roman Catholic 18.85%, Protestant 8.15%, Orthodox 4.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 23.2%, Hindu 15.0%, Buddhist 7.1%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.2%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, non-religious 9.66%, atheists 2.01%. (2010 est.).
23 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 02:41 pm Report abuse
To question someone's position or values for not believing and being science based is no different than being persecuted for being religious and the type of religion one believes in. I kind it more of a concern when one group of religious zealots, or the atheist's try to inflict they way of thinking on others. Like the Taliban.....or Islamist extremists, or the atheist in the USA trying to remove anything with “God” in it because they mis-interpret the religious amendment to fit their desires. These are the problem groups......not those that believe or not believe.
But a funny thing........I've noticed in the Army, that when atheist were dying.....they prayed before they died.
24 ManRod (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 02:42 pm Report abuse
I wouldn't count myself as an atheist, A_Voice. I am rather what would be called agnostic. A person rational enough to recognize, that we will probably never know if there is any supranatural being or thing that created us all or if we are a result of any other process we simply don't know. But what I know for sure, is that faulty man-made religion as the kind you probably believe in, will surely be not THE answer to the universe. That is rather an instrument to control you and your thoughts.
25 Gordo1 (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 03:25 pm Report abuse
I visited the beautiful Cologne Cathedral fairly recently - I don't recall having been charged an entrance fee.
26 cornishair (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:12 pm Report abuse
I would of thought Hartmut Zapp a retired professor of church law, could of challenged this on Human rights grounds?. I can't believe having to pay a tax to be aloud to worship your god, fits in with freedom of religion. Maybe he should try the EU.

I'm also pretty surprised to find out German's are so religious, when i lived there i didn't meet anyone from the God squad .

I believe I've read somewhere recently that the Americans are about 30 years behind Europe when it comes to Atheism, I wish they'd catch up!.........
27 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:27 pm Report abuse
'But a funny thing........I've noticed in the Army, that when atheist were dying.....they prayed before they died.' Poppy #23

Well it can't hurt to cover your bases.

”You've gotta' dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.
(And speak from the heart to be heard.)”
—William W. Purkey

... even Bill thinks it best to 'live like it's heaven on earth'
- just in case the bright, white light is just a bright, white light.
28 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:31 pm Report abuse
24
You assume too much...I didn't state that I believed in anything...
My point was....
Religion was probably a catalyst for the development of complex societies. It is at its heart, the most basic form of government. Has there ever been a modern primitive society that was not at least in part governed by theology.
It's irrelevant that religion is a form of control as there are plenty of Governments that wish to control you and your thoughts...

...and I'm not saying that religion is the way forward...I'm saying it has been!
...it's easy to laugh at something that changed the world and everyone in it to some degree.
....but to believe in nothing...is quite sad...
29 Escoses Doido (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:41 pm Report abuse
@28:
I think those of you who blindly accept creation as opposed to using your own reason, and intelect, is an infinately sadder state of affairs.

You want to banish the teaching of the theory of Evoloution in schools do you?
30 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 04:50 pm Report abuse
29
.....????
Di you post before reading my post @28
also @22
“Dreams and beliefs have dragged the stone age into the 21st century and aided in the progression of man to reach for the stars in his/her search for god.”
.....This does include science and literature....
What we we know about the history of Anglo Saxons without this guy...
Saint Bede or the Venerable Bede....
the author of.....
Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum
(The Ecclesiastical History of the English People)
31 cornishair (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 05:12 pm Report abuse
29. I remember when i lost my religion (if in fact i had any), 5/6 years old in assembly at my CofE school :) it made praying in assembly for the next five years fun!.

I would of thought in this day and age, people could have moved on from superstition, gods. devils & tooth fairy's.

Maybe in a 1000 years, people will be worshiping the works of J. R. R. Tolkien, it makes about the same amount of sense as the Bible?.
32 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 05:34 pm Report abuse
“Maybe in a 1000 years, people will be worshiping the works of J. R. R. Tolkien, it makes about the same amount of sense as the Bible?.”

Maybe in a thousand years....people will believe.....
Quantum Theory:
Your consciousness affects the behaviour of subatomic particles
Particles move backwards as well as forwards in time and appear in all possible places at once
The universe is splitting, every Planck-time (10 E-43 seconds) into billions of parallel universes.
The universe is interconnected with faster-than-light transfers of information.

Hang on a minute...that's what the Great Intellects of our time...believe NOW!

Never mind Darwin...what does this guy have to say......

”In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”....Einstein
33 Escoses Doido (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 06:09 pm Report abuse
“Atheism is the vice of a few intelligent persons, and superstition is the vice of fools.”

Voltair
34 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 06:29 pm Report abuse
Mmm.... Voltaire versus Einstein....

“Voltaire rejected the Christian Adam and Eve story and was a polygenist who speculated that each race had separate origins. Like other philosophes, such as Buffon, he divided humanity into varieties or races and attempted to explain the differences between these races. He wondered if blacks fully shared in the common humanity or intelligence of whites because of their participation in the slave trade.”

.....“who speculated that each race had separate origins.”

Wrong....all races have a common origin and all came from Africa..
....don't know what the region was called...how about we call it Eden...for arguments sake..
I wonder how many it took to Tango....

As for Einstein...he has yet to be proved wrong!
35 ChrisR (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 06:41 pm Report abuse
@ 20 A_Voice

So your parents waited until you were old enough to decide for yourself what your “Christian” name was to be? Ha, ha, ha

@ 22 A_Voice
“Even science calls the Higgs Boson the God Particle”

Quite true but you do know that it’s a piss take by the scientists, don’t you? You are getting really hilarious! Look it up as you have to do for everything you post, apart from the house on the trout stream.

The CIA have as much knowledge of the number of atheists as they did about 9/11. YOU did not know I was an atheist even though I have mentioned it on a number of posts. Why are you so frightened of atheism? Is it because you want to go to heaven (or hell, if that floats your boat) or as many people are, you are scared of being alone?

It is really funny because until I was about 12 I was the head server in a CoE High Church (bet you don’t know what that is) Then I became interested in science and I realised ALL faiths are con tricks. There is no heaven in the sky or hell under the ground and what clinched it for me was if god loved me so much why did i have to have the “Fear of God” put up me? I thought it so rediculous.

@ 23 Captain Poppy
“I've noticed in the Army, that when atheist were dying.....they prayed before they died.”

Well that is up to them, in’t it. I have been VERY near to death on two occasions and I can assure you that I did not pray but was VERY surprised when I did not die.

@ 24 ManRod

Final sentence is how it has been since the Christian “faith” was first manipulated by those who “preached”.

@ 28 A_Voice
“You assume too much...I didn't state that I believed in anything...” Now you ARE really funny.

@ 33 Escoses Doido

I agree with Voltair!
36 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 06:53 pm Report abuse
'Religion was probably a catalyst for the development of complex societies.'
'Superstition is the vice of fools'

I guess we had to wait for the development of complex societies in order that superstition could become the province of 'real' religion.

Superstition DID enable control of social groupings; just like the Inquisition did when social structures evolved religion to bring control to 'errant groups'.
If they had not started with 'religion', they would have had to have invented it. You need a counter-weights as alternative propositions to 'The Strong Man' (dictators).

I'm with R.E.M.
37 cornishair (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 06:59 pm Report abuse
Mmm.... Voltaire versus Einstein....hahahahahaha

I know lets compare two men who lived in different time periods, one who lived before Sir Darwin and one that lived after him...........

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
(lol its from the bible i didn't know that!, pretty much summons up the Bible tho.)
38 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 08:46 pm Report abuse
Actually chris I support people's right be be atheist, I loath when they feel the need to ridicule those that do believe. Just as I do for those that chastise those that do not believe.

“Well that is up to them, in’t it. I have been VERY near to death on two occasions and I can assure you that I did not pray but was VERY surprised when I did not die.”

Perhaps it takes a different turn and affect when one is running across a field and in a flash, you're legs are torn off and suddenly on your back. Or maybe having one's small intestines visible make's one feel differently. Either way my comments where not directed to you, merely an observation from dying a violent death.
39 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 08:52 pm Report abuse
35
Damn fine logic Christopher....I have a first name and a second name and a surname...since a child (5) I have always been known by my middle name through choice...
Yet you, (and my guess is, you have always known the meaning of your name) are so proud of your Cristian name that you even use it here....through choice...

BTW half the stuff you write is copy and paste....especially the tech stuff....how do I know?...Now and then I highlight something that looks copy and paste...cut it and put it into Google search and see where it comes from...I do this a lot on technical stuff.....because I don't pretend to understand it....
My forte is....Building and Construction....Literature, Art and Classical music....Graphics and maybe UK history....

...and it's not Stream it's called a Run....a bit like the difference between a Beck and a Burn....there isn't one....Trout Run..
You are right I have no idea what a head server is....

...and what's so funny about not stating that I believe in anything?...If you think I have....show me...

37
I'm not sure what you are laughing at......is it because you missed the obvious point of my comparison between Einstein and Voltaire?
I'll sum it up for you.....Voltaire was proved Wrong...and Einstein Hasn't
.....still laughing?....Doh!
40 cornishair (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 09:14 pm Report abuse
39. Ha! .....still laughing?....Doh!

Well yes im still laughing at you, you seem to have missed the point completely :)
41 tezza (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 09:30 pm Report abuse
I'm amazed!

Atheism isn't a world view, it's a lack of belief in none sense which has no foundation in reality.

As Sam Harris said, if I said a few Latin words over my pancakes in the morning and they turned into the flesh of Elvis as I ate them, you'd think I was a crackpot...but the Catholic Church gets away with it over a wafer and the flesh of Jesus and some people give it credit...enough to make a cat laugh...ha ha
42 A_Voice (#) Oct 24th, 2013 - 11:04 pm Report abuse
Tezza???.....Symbolism... I'm sure the bread and wine are symbols representing Christ's body and blood, in remembrance of his enduring sacrifice...blah de blah...Doh!
I don't know about cats laughing but I do know of a Cheshire cat that smiles...
40
Did you make a point?...I thought it was me making the point and you not getting it!
My point was... Great intellects believe in Quantum Theory...which when you look at it ...is quite unbelievable and outlandish.
Then you have the likes of the ultimate Scientist Einstein advocating a belief in some universal creator and structure.
Then you have Voltaire that was proved to be wrong concerning the origin of the races...they are all traced back through DNA to a female or females in Africa.
Please explain which point I missed...
43 Klingon (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 12:05 am Report abuse
Very simple answer, start your own church in Germany.
Tell the Vatican to go F**k themselves!
44 tezza (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 12:27 am Report abuse
@A_Voice, Ty...the bread and wine sham of the Catholic Church is NOT deemed by THEM as symbolic, they claim the bread and wine LITERALLY change into the flesh and blood of Jesus at the point of consumption...if in doubt, ask them...this is what makes the whole thing a total sham and a ploy for the clearly gullible.
45 ChrisR (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 12:16 pm Report abuse
@ 39 A_Voice

I do occasionally cut and paste because I am fed up with educating people such as you who have no scientific training or the will and perhaps the ability to learn, only to gloat.

Otherwise it is out of my own head based on my lifetime education, training and experience at the highest levels of major corporation management.

Frankly I don’t see how you are in building and construction because you seem to know very little about anything and have to constantly “check” using cut and paste (by your own admission).

And is seems that you don’t like your first name, oh dear, why am I not surprised. I bet you are one of these pretentious people who still put the initial in though aren’t you, such as “A. Little Voice”.

You seem very confused about everything but take great delight in confusing others (or attempting to).
46 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 01:58 pm Report abuse
“Then you have Voltaire that was proved to be wrong concerning the origin of the races...they are all traced back through DNA to a female or females in Africa.” hahahahahaha.

Right so your comparing a French Enlightenment writer, historian and philosopher who died in 1778 to a German theoretical physicist who died in 1955. On two completely different subjects, A. The Origin of Species. B. Divinity.

Wow.. a-vice your brilliant, gold star for you...
47 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 02:48 pm Report abuse
45
Here we go .......doesn't take you long to slip into the personal attacks and insults...I always give everyone a chance to debate without them and let them draw first blood...then retaliate.
Fine if you wish to go down that particular road...

“Otherwise it is out of my own head based on my lifetime education, training and experience at the highest levels of major corporation management.”

How the mighty fall...please take stock of your lifetime of success.....
The only place you can afford to retire to... is some tin pot third world country on the arse end of nowhere...an ex-pat, a stranger in a strange land ....cursing the world and how Brown is to blame for your predicament.
Would you like my place in the good ole USA....I could afford to give it away you know...I wouldn't miss it...I have others...Would you..would you?
If you had been as stupid and as unsuccessful as poor old me, you would have been able to have a place in the US and stayed there on your visa waiver for 3 months and left and went back....as long as you don't work they are not very strict about your coming and goings....
Unfortunately you can't afford to do that....so please ...spare me the self praise.

BTW I'm glad you coughed up about the cutting and pasting otherwise I would have had to show you where it was occurring and then the source...
....confession is good for the soul...so they say...Christ..opher......;-))))

46
You are still not getting it...
It was irrelevant the subject matter the comparison was only.....that Voltaire has been proved to be wrong and Einstein hasn't been proved to be wrong.
So I think Einstein is the more credible of the two.......
48 ChrisR (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 03:12 pm Report abuse
47 A_Voice

I fail to see how telling the truth is a personal attack?

I know who you remind me of now when I read :

“Would you like my place in the good ole USA....I could afford to give it away you know...I wouldn't miss it...I have others...Would you..would you?”

it's Kenneth Williams! Ha, ha, ha.
49 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 03:20 pm Report abuse
48
Thank you Kenneth Williams...a clever, talented and successful guy....
Don't like the Carry On stuff much, but love the interviews....such a sharp and caustic wit....
50 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 03:55 pm Report abuse
a-vice.

“It was irrelevant the subject matter the comparison was only.....that Voltaire has been proved to be wrong and Einstein hasn't been proved to be wrong.”

lol I do love google.
2. Hubble Trouble
When Einstein developed his theory of gravitation, usually called general relativity, he found a problem. The universe, which he thought was static, could not be static according to his equations. Instead of predicting that the universe was changing, he modified his equations to introduce a cosmological constant that would support his theory. When physicist Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe was not static but was expanding, Einstein called his cosmological constant “the greatest mistake of my life”.

I think the point is your comparison is wrong,you can't compare a quote on evolutionary theory (before it was a science), with a quote on Divinity (which can never be proven).
51 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 04:34 pm Report abuse
I do love Google.....
Einstein's 'Biggest Blunder' Turns Out to Be Right....
www.space.com/9593-einstein-biggest-blunder-turns.html

as for.....
“you can't compare a quote on evolutionary theory ”
”with a quote on Divinity (which can never be proven)”....can never be proven...in other words theory...
so lets try that again...
you can't compare a quote on evolutionary theory
with a quote on Divinity theory....err.......ok
52 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 05:00 pm Report abuse
You do understand the difference between Science and theology?

Anyway i thought you were a Argentinian bolivarian marxist shouldn't you view religion as a “ opium of the people” :p
53 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 05:15 pm Report abuse
I do understand the difference between a theory and a theory.....yep... both a theory

you thought I was an ........ Argentinian bolivarian marxist
.....based on what?
based on say....my nationality?
based on ...where I live?
how about based on nothing.....
54 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 05:20 pm Report abuse
Based on the crap you write lol (your not “think” are you?)

“.....yep... both a theory” I see you have no idea of how scientific theory works.
55 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 05:56 pm Report abuse
....and you have no idea how the English language works......

...and what's your excuse for the crap you write?
What does that make you....
..now this is just a theory.... but using the science of Deduction and Induction I have deduced or induced the logical conclusion that you are indeed an idiot
...but it's only a theory or is it a Scientific Method?
56 ChrisR (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
55 A_Voice and Think's little “mate”

I know what you are now: you are a Flat Earther, just as long as it's not a flatliner!

Ha, ha, ha.
57 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 06:34 pm Report abuse
55 A_“think_hole.

” I have deduced or induced the logical conclusion that you are indeed an idiot”

ha! I've been reading your crap on here for months now, everyone on this site thinks your a narcissist pleb.
58 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 06:54 pm Report abuse
56
Little mate...I'm 6-2 and 15½ stone....;-)
57
Are you English? I cannot bear your repeated use of 'Your' instead of 'You're'...cut it out!
Everyone thinks??....My oh my we have a mind reader now...
I bet you know what I'm thinking right now....that's right...you are indeed!..;-)
59 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 07:01 pm Report abuse
58 A_little_man.

hmm... personal insults, that's a sign of

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder. in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.

As evidence: ..I'm 6-2 and 15½ stone....;-). I do love a good narcissist pleb :)
60 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 07:22 pm Report abuse
59
Again you don't appear to understand the English language....there was no insult!
I asked you to stop using Your incorrectly...
Any other insult was perceived in your own mind and imagination.

I don't understand ....my height and weight description was to refute the term little...it's just a fact of life, some people are little and some are not...I'm not..yet my sister is......and???
lets destroy your high horse insult stand....
.....a-vice.
..... A_“think_hole.
You can give but not take..I see...
61 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 07:39 pm Report abuse
60 A_Temper_tantrums :)

You are “think” aren't you?, you sound like him & he's a big head narcissist as well, same person i think. Never understood why the Argentinian posters need more then ID.

Anyway your the one who can't seem to get their head around the difference between scientific theory and theological statements.
62 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
I warned you about using Your....and you did it again....“you're the one!” Now you're in BIG trouble....

Spot the difference.....
Scientist: “I have a theory that the universe was created by a big bang..”
Layman: ..“I have a theory the big bang was created”
Scientist: “What prove do you have?......None it's a theory
Layman: ”What proof do you have?.......None it's a theory
63 cornishair (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 08:13 pm Report abuse
BIG trouble.... in little China?, that's a funny film :)

Again you don't understand the difference between scientific theory and theological statements.

Scientist: “I have a theory that the universe was created by a big bang..”, based on millions of man-hours of Research and experimental development by hundreds of scientists based on peer veiw.

Layman: ..“I have a theory the big bang was created” based on my limited understand of a 2000 year old book written by humans who had no understanding of the world they lived in.
64 A_Voice (#) Oct 25th, 2013 - 08:44 pm Report abuse
Wrong again the theory that the big bang was created is simple physics....cause and effect.
The big bang was an effect...what was the cause?
You fell for that one in assuming the layman had a limited knowledge and also had something to do with religion.....tut tut
You were suckered.....They are both plausible theories in Science....;-)
The only difference is what do you call the creator......
65 Think (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 07:36 am Report abuse
TWIMC

Many scientists think (quite rightly, following our current scientific methodology) that the universe began with the explosion of a ”Very Tiny Point Where Every Speck Of Existing Energy Was Jammed Together”…

Same scientists think (not so rightly, following same scientific methodology) that space itself was created and stretched by the explosion of that ”Very Tiny Point Where Every Speck Of Existing Energy Was Jammed Together”…

I just ask…......:
How did that ”Very Tiny Point Where Every Speck Of Existing Energy Was Jammed Together” came into existence?
66 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 09:14 am Report abuse
If black holes can compact everything to a singularity,
why can't a big bang create everything from a singularity?

I'm just thinkin', 'Who creates all these singularities?' ;-)
and 'why is there not ... just one?'

[Thinks] 'Must go away and create new branch of physics .. Pluralities'
67 Think (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 12:03 pm Report abuse
(66) GeoffWard2

That makes things even more complicated.......
Praise God for simple things as the Great British Bake Off....... ;-)
68 Escoses Doido (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
For me, all those who claim God (any god) exists, have the onus on them to prove it.
And not impose their beliefs on others, or try to sneak them in to school curriculums, as 'Intellegent Design'......

“Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur”,
69 ChrisR (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 06:09 pm Report abuse
It's is all a bit more complicated than A (meaning one) singularity.
70 KK (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 06:30 pm Report abuse
@Cornishair
The Big Bang Theory was indeed first conceived by a fine scientist, who happened to also be a Catholic priest, Msgr. Georges Lemaître.

To folks here in general:
Don't paint with so broad a brush. First, the Vatican did not impose this tax, whatever the local (German) church's position on it.
Secondly, according to sound, orthodox Catholicism, God created the everything. That means that anything which is actually scientifically true about the world is a part of God's creation. Tell me what sounds like a greater being: that he whooshed together some mud into a hairy ape-like thing, or that he created a vast universe with incredible laws and principles, such that on a certain planet, life formed through natural processes and become unspeakably complex and magnificent, culminating in creatures which could engage in the ridiculous and joyful task of pondering their own existence? #1 sounds like the idea of God shared by hardened atheists and hardened fundamentalists. #2 is what is believed by orthodox, mainline Christians.
Faith and Reason are harmonious and can never truly conflict. Whether God used evolution, a big bang, or his pinkie is irrelevant from the standpoint of faith, because the story of Creation (Genesis) is not meant to reveal scientific truth, but to explain God's relationship to the Universe and shed light on the human condition.
71 Stevie (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 07:52 pm Report abuse
And where did God come from?
72 Think (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 08:06 pm Report abuse
(71) Stevie

Not to be unpolite but..............
Your question has already been asked at (65 ;-)
73 A_Voice (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 08:14 pm Report abuse
71
The question is flawed if God was created....it wouldn't be God....
What you would really have to accept is that something can exist with no beginning and no end.....Alpha..Omega....
Not such a difficult concept...a circle for instance fits the bill...how abstract is that?.. no beginning and no end...
74 Think (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 08:42 pm Report abuse
TWIMC

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.............

Simple?

Time for my Aspirin........
75 Stevie (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 10:09 pm Report abuse
It's not a flawed question. If you accept an entity that exists beyond nothing, why not accept that materia erupted out of a black hole?

Better enough, instead of spending next 1000 years dwelling on where we came from, is it not about to figure out where we are going?
76 A_Voice (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 11:43 pm Report abuse
That's the problem the human mind especially scientists find it easy to accept that there was nothing and a split second later there was something.
.....But finds it difficult to accept there was something....
I would have thought if you can work out where you came from it will be easier to figure out where you are going.

Role on the Big Crunch you will never know it happened....all that vast universe and in a split second there will be nothing.....no warning, no farewells...zilch..
....just in case....bye everyone....;-)
77 Stevie (#) Oct 26th, 2013 - 11:57 pm Report abuse
Avoice
Human kind spent thousands of years dwelling on where we came from. Has it helped? Between you and me, scientists has explained more in an afternoon than religion in all those years...
78 toooldtodieyoung (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 09:19 am Report abuse
You see? you see?

Is this the “Unconditional love” the bible speaks of? smells like B*llsh*t to me!!!

God does NOT exist, the bible is just a book and the catholic church is child molesting, woman hating, money grabbing monster.

A bet this is a kick in the teeth for all of you deluded retards who believe in the “magic man”
79 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 09:30 am Report abuse
... but you CAN get 17,073 angels on the head of a pin.
80 Think (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 10:13 am Report abuse
(79) GeoffWard2

....I would venture to say that you CAN get 17,073 angels on the POINT of a pin.

;-)
81 A_Voice (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 12:12 pm Report abuse
Mmm...ponder...ponder....

....are they dancing or sat down?
82 Think (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 12:34 pm Report abuse
AIEEE....
In times like these we should “Think” ourselves lucky to have A_Voice talking to us.
;-)
83 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 01:14 pm Report abuse
So, we're all agreed ... there are angels, and they're pretty small.
(I believe it's them that tickle the nostrils at the onset of a cold.)

But, AIEE!, we should all keep checking the blue ... just in case.
84 Think (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 03:30 pm Report abuse
:-)
85 ChrisR (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 06:35 pm Report abuse
Well “you lot” of God believers based on the “word of God” in the Bible there is a slight problem here.

Nothing was written in the form of a bible for centuries. The Bible is, in fact, a collection of stories originally passed down the generations by word of mouth from times predating the advent of Christ (if he really came).

To demonstrate the problem with the veracity of the word of mouth, consider something that happened in WW1. There was a company of riflemen located on the front and an opportunity came up to gain ground if only there were a few more men. The telegraph was down and the world had to be sent verbally. The message was “send reinforcements, we are going to advance”.

After a considerable time the telegraph was repaired and a message came from HQ. They were not pleased because the signals guy who took the message down from the final runner had written:

SEND THREE AND SIXPENCE WE ARE GOING TO A DANCE.
86 KK (#) Oct 27th, 2013 - 10:47 pm Report abuse
ChrisR,

First,
Not all of the Bible was pre-Christ. So far as I know, there's no “Gospel according to Doctor Who,” so everything in the New Testament is quite likely after Christ's birth. I've heard some crazy ideas about dating particular books, but never one that bold. ;)
The Bible is composed of a large number of different books that were accepted as scripture by the Jewish people (called the Old Testament by Christians) and the Christian Church (New Testament). To box them all together would be like a librarian saying, “to Hell with the Dewey Decimal System/Library of Congress Classification! There's no difference between biology and pulp romance novels! I'm going to stick them all in a pile of the floor.” Some were transmitted orally for a long period of time, and some were composed for immediate consumption (e.g., Pauline epistles).

Second,
You are indeed correct in recognizing that what Christians call “revelation” (knowledge about God which has been disclosed and carried forth through the means of scripture and tradition) is often transmitted through seemingly imperfect, human means. If you want to read what Christians say about this, read Dei Verbum (“Word of God” in Latin), the Vatican II document which explains how Catholics approach the Bible:
“To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to ”literary forms.“ For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.” (DV Ch III, 12.6)
Indeed, many modern Christians who have removed themselves from the authentic Christian tradition lack this understanding, but it's a view towards scripture which goes back even to the Early Church Fathers.
87 A_Voice (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:13 am Report abuse
This is interesting......
Two descriptions one from a stupid old book a couple of thousand years old ....a simple description for simple undeveloped minds....and the other the collective knowledge of our scientists...

1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 - And God saw the light, and it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

Scientists.....
1.1 The universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
1.2 Nothing existed before the singularity....The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity, nothing existed....a void if you like....
1.3 The singularity was thousands of times smaller than a pinhead. It was hotter and denser than anything we can imagine. Then it suddenly exploded. The Universe that we know was born. Time, space and matter all began with the Big Bang. In a fraction of a second, the Universe grew from smaller than a single atom to bigger than a galaxy.....An explosion of light and heat would be a fair description.
1.4 After about one to three minutes had passed since the creation of the universe, protons and neutrons began to react with each other to form deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen. Deuterium, or heavy hydrogen, soon collected another neutron to form tritium. Rapidly following this reaction was the addition of another proton which produced a helium nucleus. Scientists believe that there was one helium nucleus for every ten protons within the first three minutes of the universe. After further cooling, these excess protons would be able to capture an electron to create common hydrogen. Hydrogen and helium....and we have the stars to divide the light from the darkness....

Spot any similarities.....
88 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:13 pm Report abuse
86 KK

I do know about the Old and New testaments but in reality, as you have stated “so everything in the New Testament is quite likely after Christ's birth”. I was taking the Mickey to be honest because I no longer believe in god and see the bible as nothing more than propaganda.

“The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.”

All very good, BUT, we still have to “interpret” what was written and translate that to the period when it was first presented as a “bible”. Please don’t forget there have been a number of “updates” to the bible to get the one we have today (depending on which one you use).

87 A_Voice of desperation by Thinks little helper

Scientists 1.1
How do you know that, are you cutting and pasting?
1.2 Ditto. AND are you sure NOTHING existed before 1.1?

You seem to have been reading the “old” version and have failed to take into account parallel universes, so off you go and do better!
89 A_Voice (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 02:24 pm Report abuse
88
“You seem to have been reading the “old” version and have failed to take into account parallel universes, so off you go and do better!”

Is it your old age that is giving you a short term memory? I bet you are glad you are an atheist as your three score and ten is almost up.....
I fail to take into account....really....

@32 A_Voice (#)
Quantum Theory:
Your consciousness affects the behaviour of subatomic particles
Particles move backwards as well as forwards in time and appear in all possible places at once
The universe is splitting, every Planck-time (10 E-43 seconds) into billions of parallel universes.
The universe is interconnected with faster-than-light transfers of information.

.....do keep up

Am I cutting and pasting.....of course I'm cutting and pasting....what am I..a bloody Scientist......Jeez...
Are they sure?....of course they are not sure...a clue is in the word...Theory!!!
Are you sure there was not a creator?
I personally haven't got a clue....therefore I won't dismiss it....

There are lots of crazy concepts that are actually true.....
For instance...
You have never touched anything in your life....
You have never set foot on this earth....
Both True....
90 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 04:51 pm Report abuse
@ 89 A_Voice of desperation by Thinks little helper

If you want to have a good read for non-scientists regarding astro-physics (don't worry, he doesn't call it that) and how it started from the very beginning of mankind, try one of Carl Sagan’s works, I recommend “Pale Blue Dot”.
91 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 05:12 pm Report abuse
It's a bit old now, but I learned a lot from Paul Davies' 'God and the New Physics', 1983.

It focuses on 4 questions:
1. Why are the laws of nature what they are?
2. Why does the universe consist of what it does?
3. How did these things arise?
4. How did the universe achieve its organisation?

His final para. starts
'science offers a surer path than religion in the search for God'.

He does not believe in angels ... or faeries, Tinkerbell!
92 Think (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
(91) GeoffWard2

I “Think” that Paul Davies did slightly misformulate his opinion about “Science offering a surer path than religion in the search for God.”

In my humble opinion “Science certainly offers a surer path than religion to substantiate God's existence.”

Still, the easiest, most direct path to find God continues to be as simple as choosing to believe…
93 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
@ 92 Think aka The Lunatic of Chew Butt.

I suggest a better way for you.

Go and see him.
94 GeoffWard2 (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 09:25 pm Report abuse
Think #92

Mmmm ... to stand atop that high board, blindfold; contemplating whether there is water in the pool ... heady stuff!
95 Think (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 07:25 pm Report abuse
(94) GeoffWard2

Heavy stuff indeed.................................. for the likes of you and me...
A walk in the park for a true believer, I'm told ...

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