Monday, October 28th 2013 - 05:37 UTC

Argentine government retains congress; Massa and Macri confirm 2015 presidential ambition

Argentine President Cristina Fernandez's governing bloc held onto control of Congress in Sunday's mid-term elections, but the results also confirmed the emergence of a new group of powerful leaders who with different messages (and non-messages) anticipated on that same night that their target it the presidential chair in 2015.

Massa the big winner calling for unity and an end to arrogance and confrontation (Pic La Nacion)

Macri, confirms his leadership in the capital Buenos Aires with the 2015 T shirts

Scioli the only somber face in the president's team celebrating 'victory' with cheerleader Boudou

The most significant, although partly anticipated, was that of a former cabinet chief, Sergio Massa who beat the candidate that Cristina Fernandez hand-picked to lead her slate for Congress, Martin Insaurralde, by a decisive 12-point margin in Buenos Aires province, where 37% of Argentina's voters live.

With 72% of the votes counted nationwide, the governing Front for Victory won 28% of the congressional votes overall, far short of the 54% that Cristina Fernandez carried in her re-election in 2011, but sufficient to be confirmed as the leading minority and enough votes to sustain the current controversial economic policy.

On Sunday half the 257 Lower House seats and a third of the Senate were on dispute.

Cabinet Chief Juan Manuel Abal Medina predicted that when all the votes were in, the FV would gain five seats in the 257-seat Chamber of Deputies and maintain a “comfortable majority” in the 72-member senate. This means the FV remains the only nationwide political force and still holds more seats in Congress than any other bloc.

But the ruling front's losses in Argentina's most populous districts, (Buenos Aires province and capital; Santa Fe, Cordoba and Mendoza) underlines the growing dissatisfaction with the administration and a weakened presidency.

The president's opponents won more than enough seats to block any constitutional changes, ruling out a “re-re-election” in 2015, which anyhow is now completely out of the question given her medical condition, not only surgery for the cranium blood clot but a heart condition which will be addressed once the month long convalescence of no-stress, no-work, no-news is strictly completed.

In effect medical speculation is that the Argentine president will again visit the operation theatre this time for minor surgery and a pacemaker which will also question her capacity to face two years with a long list of economic challenges and the fact her cabinet is deeply divided on how to address them. Furthermore will the president have the sufficient strength to influence the 2015 election hopefuls and sustain the legacy of a decade of Kirchnerism.

Meantime Massa and his Renewal Frong that made a strong call for unity, and an end to confrontation and arrogance in government , will be sworn on December 10 as a member of the Lower House having received the most votes of any politician running on Sunday. And his victory took place in the province of Buenos Aires which is decisive for any presidential hopeful

“We accept our differences, plurality, and as our Pope Francis says, harmony, which is the best way to build our society,” Massa said Sunday night in calling on all Argentine politicians to “please listen to the message of the people.”

In his speech with a clear presidential projection, despite only being a mayor, Massa anticipated that “as the strongest force in the province of Buenos Aires, we now have the responsibility of crossing the border and reaching to other provinces”.

Massa also invited his municipal peers from all Argentina to agree on three basic issues: appropriate nutrition for all Argentine children; improve the quality of education to eliminate the digital gap, and finally the most important and pressing issue: concentrate the battle against insecurity, violence and crime at municipal level, with a mandatory network of cameras and municipal law enforcement.

But it won't be easy because Massa leads as a successful mayor in the wealthy Tigre municipality, where many of Argentina's rich and famous live in gated communities. Now he'll need to make his voice heard while leading the third-largest force in Congress, far less numerous than the 131 or more (out of 257) for the ruling bloc.

The other winners who confirmed their 2015 aspiration include the Mayor of Argentina's capital Buenos Aires Mauricio Macri and his PRO group whose candidates for the Lower House and Senate again ratified his undisputed leadership in the city.

At the victory rally Macri officially announced he was running for the Argentine presidency in 2015, and if there was any doubt, the group of militants and supporters at the stage proudly showed off yellow sweat shirts with the 2015 inscription. However he lacks a national organization in a federal country.

Two other winners at provincial level in important districts with almost 50% of ballot support confirmed they are serious contenders even if they did not make an announcement. One of them is former Vice-president and now undisputed leader in the province of Mendoza, Julio Cobos, and the other Hermes Binner, the big chief in Santa Fe, one of the richest provinces, and seat of Rosario, the country's second largest city and soybean hub for Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia and southern states of Brazil.

Cobos and Binner are left centre and according to Argentine analysts could organize a front with that orientation to dispute the presidency, but first they must agree and last but not least, they also need a national organization.

Something similar could also be said of Cordoba governor Jose Manuel de la Sota whose congressional candidates managed to win on Sunday despite the central government's efforts to financially suffocate the province by not sending the federally shared revenue checks. Cordoba is the richest province after Buenos Aires and Buenos Aires capital.

And finally there is the current governor from the province of Buenos Aires and with a long political experience, Daniel Scioli. Even when his relation with Cristina Fernandez has been erratic and he is not accepted by the ultra-Kirchnerites, Scioli has given proof of an infinite patience and has long repeated he wants to be a candidate in 2015, 'if Cristina Fernandez does not run for a third consecutive mandate, which triggered the wrath of the fundamentalists.

But his non confrontation attitude, good relations with all political forces and even with the hated Clarin group, was crucial in delivering the province of Buenos Aires for Cristina Fernandez re-election in 2011 and her most impressive 54% ballot.

Besides when Cristina Fernandez health knocked her out of the campaign for Sunday's vote he took over showing his loyalty to the president and the 'Kirchner model' and has been by far the more serious and respectable figure of the regime without Cristina. Compared to Scioli, acting president Amado Boudou is a joke, and a bad one for that.

Furthermore at the government's electoral bunker as the results were made public on Sunday night, with all ministers, advisors, lawmakers, candidates on stage arrogantly celebrating the fact that the Victory Front had remained as the main political force of the country and in Congress, despite the heavy losses, Scioli was the only serious face in the midst of that mass of laughter and singing, with cheer leader Boudou.

“Tonight we are remembering the memory of Nestor Kirchner who died exactly three years ago, the man who transformed Argentina; and also the thirty years of the return of democracy”, said Boudou, adding that “it is confirmed we remain as the main force in Congress, and we are just waiting for the president to return to continue building the new Argentina”, said Boudou.

“We are the team of President Cristina and very proud of it. And very proud the people continue to support us” said Boudou standing in first line next to a somber Scioli, who clearly was out of tune with the victory-celebration attitude of the Kirchnerites.

Scioli has his own structure in the province of Buenos Aires, a good relation with Massa and has been sufficiently long in politics to have a national reputations in the 24 districts of Argentina. But this time he is on what is obviously the losing side.

However he is not to be discarded: not only has he reiterated his presidential intention and a good reputation, but he has 24 months ahead to October 2015. A similar period that saw the Victory Front support plunge from 54% to 30%. And as several Argentine political analysts pointed out looking into history: governors running for the presidency have only one chance to reach Casa Rosada and that is when their first chance, which leaves out Binner and de la Sota.

The argument goes further and recalls that In previous Argentine midterm elections, 24 months ahead of a presidential ballot nobody was counting with Ricardo Alfonsin as the winner in 1983; Carlos Menem in 1989 or Nestor Kirchner in 2003. So in Argentine politics 24 months is a long time and there could even more surprises, not to say the least when Cristina Fernandez returns to the helm and in what conditions.

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1 British_Kirchnerist (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 09:08 am Report abuse
Congratulations to the FpV for a midterm result that would be almost impossible for a governing party of 10 years standing here in Britain!

”the results also confirmed the emergence of a new group of powerful leaders who with different messages (and non-messages)“

Great, a president without a message, just what the vultures would like!

”The president's opponents won more than enough seats to block any constitutional changes, ruling out a “re-re-election” in 2015, which anyhow is now completely out of the question given her medical condition“

Cristinita's medical condition is irrelevant to whether she can run again, the idea that you can't make reasonable adjustments for the minor health problems she is facing and overcoming is Neanderthal, as for the parliamentary arithmetic its not much changed since they voted through nationalisation, so who knows...

”In effect medical speculation is that the Argentine president will again visit the operation theatre this time for minor surgery and a pacemaker which will also question her capacity to face two years with a long list of economic challenges and the fact her cabinet is deeply divided on how to address them“

We'll see if this ”speculation“ stands up, but one way she could help distress could be to solve the cabinet divisions by sacking the right, if divisions there are

”But it won't be easy because Massa leads as a successful mayor in the wealthy Tigre municipality, where many of Argentina's rich and famous live in gated communities“


”Furthermore at the government's electoral bunker as the results were made public on Sunday night, with all ministers, advisors, lawmakers, candidates on stage arrogantly celebrating the fact that the Victory Front had remained as the main political force of the country and in Congress, despite the heavy losses, Scioli was the only serious face in the midst of that mass of laughter and singing, with cheer leader Boudou”

This is not analysis, or indeed good sketchwriting
2 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 10:59 am Report abuse
@ 1 Who knows who you are!

Proof, if proof were needed, that you are a Kirchnerist idiot living in The Dark Country and posting what you are given.

Far too lucid and erudite than anything you have posted before.
3 British_Kirchnerist (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 11:22 am Report abuse
#2 I've been lucid and erudite before; in fact I'm sure you've acknowledged it from time to time. Sometimes tbh I can't be arsed to write long comments and just chuck in a barb or two that, while still true, is yes a bit less intellectual. Anyway its all my analysis as a British socialist, and I'm honest about gaps in my knowledge. Like did Victoria Montenegro get in? Really hope she did...
4 yankeeboy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 11:32 am Report abuse
The 1st of the split exchanges rates appeared today. 7/1 for Mining Companies.
Same playbook as the idiots in Venezuela.

I think Crissy may be in Cuba for medical leave shortly as this whole economy/Gov't unravels.
5 FI_Frost (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 11:52 am Report abuse
@3 “British_Kirchnerist”

Are there many of you about in the UK - its a growing movement?
6 Welsh Wizard (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 11:58 am Report abuse
@4 Official splits?
7 Faz (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:02 pm Report abuse
UK Argies - footballers? Rugby players? Dossers? Or, like Think - refugees!

Latter two categories methinks...
8 British_Kirchnerist (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:09 pm Report abuse
#5 Socialism is =)
9 pgerman (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:23 pm Report abuse
The good thing of this election is that the fascist plan to change the National Constitution to legalize the hegemony of the Peronist Party failed. CFK following Francisco Franco, Stroessner, Musolini or Hitler wanted to change the Constitution so she can be reelected forever and, following“Birdy” Maduro plans, have al the power in her hands.

Another good thing is that the Peronist Party was defeated in the most impotante provinces of the country, with the exceptions of Buenos Aires, and in some of these provinces they were third.

There are new options for 2015 outside the Peronist Party, such as Cobos, Binner, Macri, all them proved to be very popular and, the most important, they don't have the fascist ideology of CFK. So the change is possible.

The bad thing is that the Perosnit Party is still the most importan one. Based of political dishonest practices they succeeded in being voted is some poor areas by awarding subsidises.

The ironic issue is that they are voted in the poorer areas, such as El Tigre (one of the districts with more poverty) but also in the richest ones, such as Puerto Madero, where live most of the new rich “La Campora” people
10 FI_Frost (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:26 pm Report abuse
@8 you mean Cronyism no?
11 pgerman (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:32 pm Report abuse

The Peronist Party was born by copying spanish and italian fascist practices and ideology of the decade before WWII.

Argentina in spite of being a country created by the freemasons could not get rid of its catholic background. As a result the Peronist party is a very usefull tool to keep the privileges of the leading class.

So, the Peronist Party is a rightist and conservative party that uses populism to use the masses in the favor of the “feudal lords” of the provinces and distrits.
12 KFC de Pollo (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:46 pm Report abuse
@1 Kretina is not a socialist.
13 pgerman (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 12:52 pm Report abuse
Some journalist once said that “one Peronist that like socialist is like a bald with braids”.

Peron and Eva Duarte were politically allied to Francisco Franco, Gral Stroessner and Gral Augusto Pinochet. They were against comunism and any way of socialism at loud voice.
14 ElaineB (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:11 pm Report abuse
CFK's health problems are a hinderance and to say otherwise is not honest. It is not some conspiracy but fact.

Socialism is NOT growing in the UK. The facts dictate quite the opposite. The 1970's were the peak of socialist groups in the UK and their numbers have dwindled to single figures at most meetings. They self destructed through bitter infighting between the groups and the Monty Python sketch from Life of Brian about such groups is not far from the truth. I remember one group recruiting abroad in the USA and managed to sign up six new members, four were on death row. Even the Labour party is dead and buried and has emerged as New Labour which is a slightly to the left brand of conservatism. And New Labour has no policies either. They do not announce them at this stage of the game because they don't want to reveal their hand before the electioneering starts.

BK, unfortunately your drooling comments over CFK, whilst design to wind up posters here, somewhat undermined your credibility which is why people question don't take you seriously.
15 BLACK CAT (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:12 pm Report abuse
I hope Timmy throws his hat in the 2015 ring, now that would be fun
16 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:29 pm Report abuse
I think socialism merely took a time-out, leaving space for neo-liberalism. Now that neo-liberalism has failed in it's speculation based doctrine, I think you'll see changes that might not be of your liking...
17 FI_Frost (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:50 pm Report abuse
@16 Stevie

Yes, we are all waiting (desperate in fact) for the rise of a true national socialist, populist party to save us from our failed institutions and broken society.

Looks like “ British” Kirchnerist is part of the advance guard. LOL.
18 yankeeboy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:50 pm Report abuse
16. WTF took a time out? Socialism is the dream of delusional people divorced from reality.
Socialism/Collectivism/Progressivism or whatever ism you want to call it is dead, it has died many times, proved to be a total failure where ever it was tried.
You have to be really stupid to think somehow someway someone can alter human behavior then maybe the next time it will work.

Wonder when we will see Crissy take medical leave? When the Peso hits 20/1? Or 30/1?
19 Monkeymagic (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 01:58 pm Report abuse
“Socialism is a great idea until you run out out of somebody elses money...”

So Stupid Stevie is a socialist...that explains a lot...hahahahaha
20 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 02:28 pm Report abuse
Sure yanqui, because your individualist society based on borrowed money from the collective efforts will work perfectly as soon as you hit a decent debt level..

Or how was it...?
21 British_Kirchnerist (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 02:29 pm Report abuse
#18 “Socialism/Collectivism/Progressivism or whatever ism you want to call it is dead, it has died many times”

Why does it have to die “many times” unless it keeps coming back? As they used to say introducing George Galloway's radio show, “the ideology of Karl Marx and the bouncebackability of Groucho Marx” =)
22 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 02:41 pm Report abuse
If you speak about socialism in a broader meaning, as in an alternative to capitalism, then yes, I'm a socialist.
If you try to define my views within the different socialism movements that are represented worldwide, you won't find a fit though...

I simply don't choose a flavour in this premade game. I'm aiming for playing a different game entirely.
23 Welsh Wizard (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 03:00 pm Report abuse
@21 BK

The current system is not perfect and does not work for all. Having said that, socialism also doesn't work seem to work. If you look at Argentina and what it calls its progressive model you find that its basis is socially progressive policies without the economic policies to match. This result in an unsustainable model which, at some point, is doomed to faliure. You can see this when a 26 year qualified professor is being paid exactly the same as they were (i.e. exactly the same amount of pesos) 20 years ago when they were only 6 years qualified. This goes to show that, whilst the social policies might be progressive, the economic ones aren't and there is no economic progression, only regression.

So, why does it have bouncebackability? Because in a situation such as Argentina's you are able to promise “double bread” now. The issue being that once you've inflated your way into an economic black hole, you can only promise “half bread”. In the end, the people get the government they deserve.
24 axel arg (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 03:33 pm Report abuse
Although i don't agree on mercopress's ideology, i must admit this time, this report about the result of legislative elections in the mainland, is much more serious than the one published after primary elections, which was too partial and decadent.
I know that some people don't like hearing this, but like them or not, and beyond the usuall mischievous lectures made by corporate press, which often refer to a false end of cycle of kirchnerims, reality shows that after 10 years of rulling the country, f. p. v. and it's allies is still the most voted political party of the nation. Any serious political anlist knows perfectly that this is a privilege that not many parties around the world can have.
I had told you two months ago that the lady was taking note of the result of primary elections, because it's absolutly necesary that c.f. k's government retains the controll in both chambers, in order to continue rulling arg. without signifficant parliamentary obstacles, and i'm glad to know that it finally happened.
On the other hand, i must do a retractation about massa. When the campain started three months ago, i said that masa wasn't the anthitesis of kirchnerism, however, a few days before primary elections, he manifested his presidential programme, in a meting with the most powerful bussiness men of the country, which is actually the tipical version of neolioberalism.
In reference to governor scioli, i praise his loyalty, but i don't trust him as c. f. k's sucessor, because i don't ignore that he's actually a conservative who has good relations with the most reactionary and conservative sectors of argentine politic scenario.
In relation to c. f. k., i just want to say that only god knows how much i have prayed for that woman, and i hope she comes back soon. Despite some serious falencies of her government, she made a lot for the country, that's why, in my opinion, not only she's a great leader, but also a great woman.
25 yankeeboy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
Axel, How do you keep yourself clean on U$330/mo salary? Are you ready for U$250/mo?
Yeah great K policies.
Great indeed.
26 Monkeymagic (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 03:56 pm Report abuse
oh I see support socialism but none of the “socialisms that have ever been tried”...LOL

Perhaps you could invent a new “socialism” and make it part of your “journey”...Solve Uruguays energy problems and stand for President with a new political model “Stevies Socialism”... gets better and better and better.....Stevie NEVER EVER STOP are hilarious.
27 ElaineB (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
@16 How do you know what I like? You assume too much. Even amongst the most hardened socialists known personally to me there is a recognition that they will never hold any kind of real power. The best they can hope for is to prick the conscience of the most ruthless parts of capitalism. That is not such a bad thing to have in society, to question, but it will never be accepted by the majority because of the very nature of humans. It will only ever really appeal to people that have nothing to lose. But nothing in human nature has programmed us to be equal.

@ 24 I stopped reading after 10% of your first paragraph. Making a statement that this site is bad when you don't agree with an article but great when you do is too ridiculous.

I am in Chile at the moment and I can assure you that CFK is a laughing stock here. No, she is not a great leader, she has stolen from Argentines and driven the country to the edge of the cliff.
28 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 04:24 pm Report abuse
The fact that Kircherism is still in power in the Congress is a disgrace for the people like my neighbour who tells me it is of no use to vote because there is no-one to vote for.

Have the honest people of Argentina never heard of the protest vote?

Or have I got the “argie” thing all wrong? Was it in fact bribery and corruption as usual?
29 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 04:31 pm Report abuse
Axel you really need to wajke up and smell the roses!! Where did you get your PR training....from Baghdad Bob?;_ylt=A2KLqILfjm5SABoAKXT7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByYXI3cnIwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDNA--?p=baghdad+bob&vid=a3deb930b370ff0d5955662f3f21b511&l=9%3A54&

My God......FPV lost seats and it's a continuing trend. Wait up the next election. Change from democracy is a work in progress and does not happen overnight......overnight change is better known as a coup. FPV needs to kiss ass know for anything to get through and Cuntlips Kirchner will fade away into the nothing that she is. Now there is talk of another surgery....even a pacemaker. But than maybe that was a last minute attempt to try for the sympathy vote. Buenos Aires is 40% of the votes and is the province that matters and the province she lost. You need to get back to reality and stop reading a script.
As for you last paragraph....I was repulsed by it at first, then I started to think.....I should pray that God loves her too......maybe they can get together very soon.
30 Clyde15 (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 05:29 pm Report abuse
“the ideology of Karl Marx and the bouncebackability of Groucho Marx” =)
But both of them ARE dead and unlikely to bounce back !
31 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 05:44 pm Report abuse
Elaine, I assume nothing, hence the might.
And it's not about power. It's about finding a way to live without having to abuse eachother or mother nature. Regardless of who is in “power”.
32 yankeeboy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 06:34 pm Report abuse
31. Sounds like your philosophy:
You have to be really stupid to think somehow someway someone can alter human behavior then maybe the next time it will work.

You are a numskull.
33 Briton (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
The president's opponents won more than enough seats to block any constitutional changes, ruling out a “re-re-election” in 2015, which anyhow is now completely out of the question given her medical condition, not only surgery for the cranium blood clot but a heart condition
Enough said??
34 Think (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 06:53 pm Report abuse

As I “thought” yesterday...., the “Blue Dollar” has already begun to fall.....
1% so far today....

Chuckle chuckle
35 ElaineB (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 06:54 pm Report abuse
@31 I understand what you are saying and we should continue to strive to have a social conscience. Part of the social contract is to give to society as well as taking from it. I just do not see that translating to an effective government model.
36 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 07:14 pm Report abuse
Continue that thought...
37 ChrisR (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 07:41 pm Report abuse
@ 34 The Lunatic of Chew Butt

That must be really worrying to you!

A drop of a whole EIGHT CENTS of an arsewipe and that is against a base of 1,000 cents (it was 10 arsewipes for a dollar and it is now 9.92).

Just remind us all how many MILLION dollars the “central bank” (ha, ha, ha, that's so funny) had to push into the market to stop the official arsewipe dropping like a brick?

Things must be even worse than we thought if a La Camping-it-up troll like you has to worry about a margin as small as that.
38 yankeeboy (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 08:03 pm Report abuse
Curious did tomatoes and bread go down too?
Think is ridiculously stupid, The Arg peso is the worst performing currency in the world for at least 3 years, it goes down a tiny tiny bit for 1 day and he thinks its a trend.
Wanna bet the Blue Peso is closer to 15 than 5 by June 2014?
39 CabezaDura (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 08:51 pm Report abuse
I do distrust Massa, I would not vote for him but I think there is sings he is a reformist undercloak. In all fairness he said even the municipal mayors should not have more than two mandates by law admitting at the same time many of his allies were historical barons of there constituencies for much more terms. However the biggest reason is what he doesn't say yet. He focuses is critics in what everybody agrees; Moreno, INDEC, D'Elia, inflation, unsecurity. But his speech is not left oriented like the Ks is, nor peronist orthodox oriented like Luder in 1983 and Menem had in 1989. There is a saying that goes “If you cant beat them, join them”.
I believe most people vote peronist opposition as they believe they are the only ones that dont get run over by and remain independent of the central government. They have an idea they can some how asure order and administration. After all the same applies to Santa Fe which is Socialist and Corrientes which is UCR and CABA under PRO. All of them are consolidated administrations. Once you asure and proove to the province governability its very difficult that the Peronists come back

All the other Peronist K governors have being punished for being muppets of the central government
40 British_Kirchnerist (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 08:52 pm Report abuse
#22 I like your approach, reminds me of what Russell Brand's been saying lately =)

#24 Brilliant comment axel, I completely agree with your analysis of Massa and Scioli, and your last paragraph on Cristinita is very moving and touching. She really is a great woman as well as a great leader - and a great beauty too =)
41 The Truth PaTroll (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 09:02 pm Report abuse
Vote no to foreigners, and all the rest takes care of itself.
42 Stevie (#) Oct 28th, 2013 - 10:51 pm Report abuse
“The president's opponents won more than enough seats...”

I don't tink they did...
43 redp0ll (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 05:07 am Report abuse
So your man with the wings on his heels Hermes Binner won. Since you mentioned him as your favourite I have tried to research his policies. I am still confused. Perhaps with your usual erudition you can explain in simple terms what they are?
44 golfcronie (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 08:45 am Report abuse
With a statement like that, you should stand for President, you have the same mindset as the present incumbent. You obviously have not a clue, where will you get the energy? How about wind turbines, good in Patagonia. In fact you could stand in front of an array of turbines and make then work as you have enough hot air. Do you actually think what you are going to say or just say the first thing that comes into your head? Don't bother answering I know the answer.
45 Orbit (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 08:56 am Report abuse
@41... It's all the foreigners fault... Original thinking. Actually it's not; Ung said it first a few thousand years ago, accusing the Pa tribe over the missing bear skin blanket incident. Turns out his son had whipped it and he was covering up.

Anyway, on topic ... it's going to be interesting to see how 2 more years of short-termism, economic and diplomatic incompetence and accelerating corruption pan out. Particularly without CFK around to ringlead. Wonder when the resignations and flights to safety will start?

So long as their desperation doesn't increase the mythical Malvinas sabre rattling, it should be fun to watch.
46 Monkeymagic (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 10:57 am Report abuse
it is indeed heartening to hear George Galloway, Russell Brand and Karl Marx held in such high esteem by our resident trolls and morons.

It rather sets their level...
47 axel arg (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 11:59 am Report abuse
Don't worry, i don't expect you to think like me, i have already realised since a long time ago that we have deep ideological differences. On the other hand, i like analizing reports, and beyond i agree or not on the ideological line of any newspaper, i have enough intellectual honesty, in order to recognize when a report is serious, which is something that neather you, nor most people in this forum have, in fact, in just a few opportunities i could have interesting conversations with people who don't think like me. Unfortunatelly, i often find people like you, who have such a mediocre thought, and who just invalid everything that kichnerism has made in the last 10 years, just because you don't agree on it in ideological terms. If you don't like c. f. k.'s party, it's respectable too, and there are many relevant critics that you or anybody else can make, however the only one thing that decadent people do, is to invalid it.
As far as i'm concerned, i love debating about politic, i have never agreed on thatcher's policies, beyond the conflict of 1982, i have never been a fan of conservative ideas, because in my opinion most them are too reactionary, however, in the case of margaret thatcher, as somebody who loves analizing politic, i can't ignore that if she was reelected twice in the u. k., is because she must have done something right for britain, in fact, her legacy lasted after she left power, so, although i have never agreed on her ideas, i don't invalid what she did for the u. k., which is much different from what you do, everytime you refer to c. f. k., thats' why your usuall arguments are that c. f. k is crazy, and she's a thief.
48 Monkeymagic (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 12:34 pm Report abuse

The problem is that you believe that you have “intellectual honesty” and anyone who disagrees with you has “mediocre thoughts”.

You inability to see the fundamental flaws with Kirchnerism both at home and abroad suggests that the failure of intellectual honesty is indeed yours.

Firstly, the more obvious foreign policy gaffes:

1) Failure to deal with Argentinas default. Embarrassment of failed legal case after failed legal case, fear of using Argentine assets in case they are impounded, the is humiliating for see it as strong

2) The ridiculous Malvinas doctrine. On a world stage you humiliate yourselves again..there is no case to answer and never was, the case is so weak as to be embarassing, Timmermans quote at the UN “how long after you've stolen land does it becomes yours”...from an Argentine..>LOL...but you see it as strong.

3) The nationalisation of Repsol...thats going to help inward investment!! NOT

So internationally Kirchnerism is a laughing stock, her childlike rhetoric and ridiculous play acting, Argentine is a country nobody trusts and nobody respects...but this would be excusable if her policies benefitted Argentines at home.

To be honest the bar isn't set very high...there hasn't been a decent Argentine Government in nearly a century...corruption has always been rife..followed by revolution and more corruption.

A strong leader cuts out the cancer not panders to it...Argentina should be a major world player given its resources, but whilst Brazil is getting stronger..Argentina is getting weaker.

Kirchnerism has done nothing for Argentina...other than reduce its international standing from pity to contempt.
49 Casper (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 01:27 pm Report abuse
@47 Axel

Axel, your posts would be easier to digest if you broke them up with the odd paragraph. Not a criticism, just a suggestion.

I don't believe that 'decadence' means what you seem to believe it means. In English it means moral or cultural decline and/or dissolution. Was that what you meant?

I can't speak for anyone else but my problem with Kirchnerism is not ideological. I don't know what ideological strain Kirchnerism represents other than the Kirchners themselves and their attendant self-obsession, megalomania and greed.

I recognize that there are positive achievements - restoring the economy ( at least for awhile ), pursuing war criminals ( so long as they aren't Persian ) and addressing poverty and gay rights. But it's not enough when your only real commitment is to your own image.

And then there is the sheer aggressiveness and hostility to anyone that challenges what the govt. claims to be true. Do you really believe the media laws were written to democraticise the media? I know what you've said about Clarin & Lanata before. I'm in no position to judge, but scheduling a football match at a ridiculous time just to try and stop watch people watching a current affairs show is not just childish but made the country look silly. This kind of thing doesn't happen in many other places. For good reasons.

The 'head-kicker in chief' Moreno. A vice-president nominally in charge but not-really facing criminal charges. They could at least put him on leave until dispensation of his case occurs. Stupid territory disagreements with Chile, intimidating Uruguay, alienating the President of Brazil. The treatment of Vale. The treatment of LAN. Repsol. How does Correa feel about not being able to get his hands on that 19Billion?

She has alienated so many people, many of them powerful neighbours. Unnecessarily. Arbitrarily. When she leaves the only place left for her might be to don a pair of combat fatigues and join FARC.
50 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 04:07 pm Report abuse
Axel your first and largest problem is your self- inflated ego to think that you and you alone are the cream of the crop in analytical thinking. You have more “I am” reference than most self-anointed narcissist, not to mention your over used term of “intellectual honesty”. Really Axel…..Can you also stop opening your posts with…..” i have already realized since a long time ago that we have deep ideological differences”. That is a given in any forum. It appears from all of your posts that serious articles only come from propaganda news agencies versus the “corporate” news agencies.
Your constant use of coining others as mediocre (in comparison to you) defines you as a self-grandiose façade of a critical thinker. The only ones that truly invalidate a decades worth of asslips and nasty nestor are they themselves. You cringe and struggle that the developed world has ostracized Argentina for its flagrant and never ending burning bridges it just finished crossing. Argentina is the classic living example of the old adage….”cut of your nose to spite your face”.
Kirchner stole Repsol without compensating it.
She also created the oil shortage in Argentina.
Argentina has an import nightmare for goods….why? Because she default on debt and cannot get credit and is forces to artificially created surplus for U$ dollars.
Kirchner lies about inflation in order to cheat current bond holders.
Kirchner destroyed Argentina and created her oligarchy.

BTW, here are once again the generally accepted traits of intellectual thinking:

Intellectual Humility- consciousness of the limits of one's knowledge
Intellectual Integrity- honestly admit discrepancies and inconsistencies in one's own thought and action
Intellectual Empathy- Having a consciousness of the need to imaginatively put oneself in the place of others
Fairmindedness- Having a consciousness of the need to treat all viewpoints alike

Which of these are you lacking
51 CabezaDura (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 04:32 pm Report abuse
I think the underline confusion here relies in the difference between what is perceived as a “Great leader” and someone who’s a dictator who knows how to abuse and convert the instruments of the State and government in a mechanism of assessing this power even further.
M. Thatcher started over from scratch and with a country that lived on strike. Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner inherited the power that was built by her husband, she didn’t have to do anything herself to get where she was. And in late 2007 the country was in much but much better state that it is today and enjoyed record soy bean prices.
Its just beyond comparison. The only thing MT and CFK may have had in common is strong female characters
52 Briton (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 08:04 pm Report abuse
42 Stevie (#)
Oct 28th, 2013 - 10:51 pm
“The president's opponents won more than enough seats...”

I don't tink they did

well thats what it says,
besides, do we really belive what we
53 ElaineB (#) Oct 29th, 2013 - 08:07 pm Report abuse
I don't think CFK could ever be described as a strong female. Being prone to tantrums, acting out when faced with bad news, having an uncontrollable temper, sacking everyone that disagrees with her and replacing them with her son and his mates, is a very insecure and weak person.

But, of course! My comments must be mediocre because they do not support the indoctrination line.

CFK has achieved nothing but a large wardrobe of black clothing and to prove that Argentines will fall for the poor widow act when she chooses to play it. As has been pointed out, Nestor had a plan that worked for some years from a point zero and could only go one way. But even he would have seen it was unsustainable. If he were still alive I doubt the country would be in such a poor state now. I might not have agreed with his 'model' but at least he had the ability to think. CFK is totally out of her depth and resorts to lying and trying to hush anyone that speaks against her.
54 CabezaDura (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 03:08 am Report abuse
53) Well what you say is true, but when you go over her history in power and save for the farmer’s conflict at the beginning of her mandate in 2008 the rest of the times she has gotten away with everything she wanted, she has always won in the face of internal conflict; seizure of the pensions securities, seizure of the BCRA, seizure of Clarin’s football transmitting rights, she survived endless gaffes and corruption allegations against herself, her husband and government officials, she has disciplined the provinces and robbed them of their money without them having revolting about it, she has survived politically years of inflation and crime running the streets, it happened that today she has gotten away with the “new media law” she obviously is the center of everything and as all the conflicts in the inner circle and succession conflict has come to light in her absence the last few days. You must give at least some credit to her personality
55 Stevie (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 06:19 am Report abuse
All those thing are the reason she is disliked by this lot.
That, and her looks.
And most important, the way she dresses...

56 Heisenbergcontext (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 10:48 am Report abuse
@54 CabezaDura

You make some excellent points.

@55 Stevie

'This lot' is a bit generalised Stevie, don't you think? Personally I don't have a problem with how the widow Kirchner dresses or how she looks. For a 60yr old woman she looks fine. However, when you combine a prickly personality with a palpable degree of vanity as well as some questionable fashion decisions you are inevitably going to draw fire.
57 Stevie (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 11:25 am Report abuse
Sure Heisen, and don't forget the lack of arguments.
A fine reason for choosing to talk about fashion instead...
58 yankeeboy (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 11:31 am Report abuse
I will admit the dusty, crooked wig has bugged me for years. Can't she shake that thing out once in a while?
59 Heisenbergcontext (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 11:59 am Report abuse
@57 Stevie

What lack of arguments? Is there any aspect of her 'stewardship' of Argentina that hasn't been dissected ad nauseam an infinitum by now? What's left to say? I'm sure you've heard every argument opposing her policies there is to hear and none of it is going to change your mind - is it?

So why not talk about fashion...female leaders are often unfairly scrutinised regarding their appearance, but CFK has been part of public life for a long time - she knows the score. You think she's been dressing in black for all these years because she's still grief-stricken? If you are going to attempt to manipulate the public through your choice of attire that makes you fair game.
60 Pete Bog (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 12:37 pm Report abuse
@5 Socialism is =)

Apologies for going off thread as I realise this article is not about the Falklands-but BK you seem to be unaware that the Falkland Islanders are a predominantly socialist country as they have a fully and PROPERLY funded PUBLIC sector, i.e. publicly owned water, power, transport, public works , housing, education (free to locals), public health services (free to locals), and they have since 1982 used nationalisation. I even believe there are retired people's flats built directly against the Hospital so that if there is an emergency the old folks press an alarm for medical help. This is REAL socialism, not a politically FALSE socialism, as there is the pretence of in both Argentina and the UK.

There is a private business too, however it seems ironic that the Falkland Islands have retained the principle of public ownership abandoned by the UK.

So if you really believe in socialism you should be advancing the Falkland Islands model that the UK has sadly abandoned-further, clear, definitive evidence that the Islanders are not colonial serfs.

Back to the post.

Carry on CFK, though you are the best ever gift to the Falkland Islands, perhaps you might consider running your own country for the benefit of its citizens rather than your foreign stash of money?
61 ElaineB (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 01:24 pm Report abuse
@54 All those thing were achieved because she had the majority rule. I would be more impressed is she had achieved any of those by having to convince the opposition.

And to be fair, TB completely misused his majority to push through some pretty awful legislation. Laws should be debated and amended in parliament so they are actually workable.

As you brought the subject up, Stevie, CFK has stated that she continues to wear black because she thinks it is her lucky colour, nothing to do with grieving. Maybe it is time for her to rock a coat of many colours.

It is true that women are overly judged on appearance and as more women take powerful roles in society we may reached a point where what they say becomes more important. In CFK's case she admits to being a fashion addict so I don't think she can complains too much. And as another thought, how many bald POTUSes have there been since TV became significant in politics? Men are judged on appearance too. To me it is petty and the superficial should have no role in politics.
62 redp0ll (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 01:44 pm Report abuse
Black pants? Black shirt Perhaps imitating her political predeccessors for reasons of misplaced popularity
63 CabezaDura (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 02:03 pm Report abuse
61) Yes she is not a consensus reaching, she obliges and forces people rather than convince them, that’s why I set about the difference between Thatcher and her, however she does have the capacity to rule undisputed amongst her own troops, for them she really is the center of everything. Without her everything would fall apart and like it or not she gets her stuff done. And to be fair some of their laws have being supported by the wacky Argentine left like Pino Solanas and Partido Obrero, and she has absorbed into her camp Sabattella’s gang and they later became her front line soldiers against Clarin.

However I don’t respect her at all, she has made it perfectly clear in past that her vanity, ambition, narcissism, childish ego and arrogance will have primordial importance. She will not take a step back even if the country was to explode into a million pieces. The fact that she has come to lead two terms in office and that we have come this far is pathetic and sad. We won’t survive another thing like this again...

I had a related conversation a month ago here. I think there are leaders and there are dictators like Putin, who is a result of a political background and mentality, who ware the context in which he climed to power, but who will never the less will defend and champion of what he sees and believes his country’s national interests are, and there are other dictators like Cristina, Kaddafi, Mugabe, Chavez, Maduro, etc who are just pathetic banana republic tyrants in the end of the day.
64 axel arg (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 04:22 pm Report abuse
Actualy i respect people who are detractors of kirchnerims, however what really annoys me so much, is when that some of them invalid everything we could get in the last 10 years, just because they don't like c. f.k., that's why i refer once and again to intellectual honesty, although some people don't like hearing this, in my opinion if somebody likes analizing something so complicated like politic doesn't have intellectual honesty, then he can't discuss about it.
In my case, i have been perfectly clear in relation to what i think about margaret thatcher, beyond i have never agreeded on conservative ideas, i can't be mediocre and invalid her leadership, because like me or not, if she was reelected twice in the u. k., and ruled britain more than any other prime minister, is because this is evident that during the historic context that she governed the nation, most british people thought she took right decisions.
It woud be good if many of you learn someday to make critics without invaliding c. f. k's leadership, and many of the achievements that we could get in this decade. Although i'm a kirchnerist activist, i have never omited that her government has some serious falencies in her administration, and i think it's absolutly necesary to discuss about them, however it's very difficut to talk about these issues, when most i see in this forum are insults, misserable comparisons, and distorted information published in our hegemonical press, which are often replied in many media groups. I have always refered to them, and i will always do it.
65 CabezaDura (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 04:29 pm Report abuse
c.f.k leadership....?? NOT. She is a crackpot dictator..

Imagine what else he would of done with soy over 500 U$S
66 Casper (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 05:28 pm Report abuse
@64 Axel arg

Axel, I don't dislike Ms Kirchner - she's never done anything to me, and I can always find something likeable about someone if I try hard enough - but I don't respect her and I certainly wouldn't trust her to lead my country. I can't think of a single western leader, save the Viagra fuelled Berlusconi, who could survive the consistently intemperate and indefensible statements and decisions that she routinely makes. To be perfectly blunt I wouldn't trust her to organise the proverbial piss- up in a brewery.

I'm sure it's different from your perspective. Perhaps your life has improved during her rule, but so much of what she does seems fixed on short-term solutions to problems she and her late husband caused in the first place, so many of her 'diplomatic' efforts seem to frustrate her neighbours who are, nominally at least, her allies, her actions against her critics are so excessive, and her economic decisions so disastrous that you must surely be in a minority.

Argentina is a significant nation of 40 million people with bountiful resources. You deserve better.
67 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 30th, 2013 - 09:06 pm Report abuse
You seem to skim over WHY people here on this website rebuke and denounce her. Number one reason is that she and nasty nestor DEFAULTED on money the country borrowed. Indec is an absolute joke….inflation they claim is at 8 % a year yet they give out 20 to 25% raises. Food prices that were froze ( NOT) are allowed to increase by 12%
She refused to do press conferences. Why leader in a free world does not hold press conferences and does not do interviews. Only recently and to handpicked media outlets. She has temper tantrums, fires those that disagree with her. She tried to control the judiciary, wants to rule forever….she IS an Argentine oligarchic hegemony. She is not a leader and you refuse to understand that. Elaine is correct in her assertion that Nasty Nestor was always meant to lead, not her and then he screwed the plan and died.
The heterodoxy economics is killing Argentina. Have you been to the port in Buenos Aires and seen they containers sitting there rusting away for years now because of her import restrictions? Dollar clamp………what free world country outlaws any other countries currency? She cannot keep taking from those that work…..and give bread crumbs to those that do not. I predict that she will not complete the remainder of her term.
68 axel arg (#) Oct 31st, 2013 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
CABEZA DURA: As you can see, i'm not wrong when i say in this website there are many reactionary and mediocre people who just insult and who can't be serious detractors of kirchnerism, so, if you have such a low level of debate, please don't adreess to me again, because i have already wasted so much time with mediocre people like you, and i could never have any interesting discussion, i think i have been perfectly clear, haven't i?.
CASPER and CAPTAIN POPPY: I respect if you don't trust c. f. k., however i think it would be better to search better information in order to understand the reasons why she took some measures which are considered as controversial by orthodox economists.
Firstly, it's very easy to criticise the measures taken in a development country like arg., from the perspective of first world nations like the u. k. or u. s.a. During the decade of the 90's we had a free market economy, which destroyed most our national industries, so, c. f. k. or any other leader doesn't have to be so smart, in order to realise that our local productions must be protected, in fact all countries do it.
On the othr hand, the so called dollar clump is necesary because the government must get enough dollars in order to continue with the process of economic expansion, beside, it doens't want to get them in the capitals market, due to it doens't want more debt.
Beside, anybody has right to think whatever, what is really misserable is to invalid the opinions of the 54,115 of voters, who decided to gave her the opportunity of rulling the country for four more years, so, beyond you or anybody else like her or not, she is a leader.
What i praise form her, is the fact that she took decisions thinking in future generations, like the nationalizations of different important recources, and many others, i know that for orthodox economists, nationalizations are a robbery, but although they don't like those decisions, nationalizations as as legal and legtimate as privatizations.
69 CabezaDura (#) Oct 31st, 2013 - 03:28 pm Report abuse
axel arg

Of course it is much more comfortable to talk to the foreigners about Argentina governed by the Ks than to actual Argentines who are anti-K, who know how things really are… Isn’t it troll boy??
70 Casper (#) Oct 31st, 2013 - 04:28 pm Report abuse
@68 Axel

Sadly I think we must agree to disagree. I sense that this a very sensitive subject for you, there seems to be something very personal in your defence of your President

. I can't hope to have the same perspective, but I am sure that if I were living in Argentina I would be convinced that I had somehow stumbled into a Kafka story. I swear there must be something about Argentine culture that I simply don't understand.

I think it's the INDEC situation that illustrates this best. Is there really anyone, including yourself, who really believes the actual inflation rate is 'only' 10-11%? And if you know this figure cannot be trusted, how can you trust any figure the Govt. produces? Even your own Economics Minister had the grace to look ( acutely ) embarrassed when pressed on the subject.

It all seems to me like living in a hall of mirrors. Doesn't it bother you to be lied to so often and so blatantly? You seem to have successfully reconciled these two separate realities Axel, but if it were me I would be driven mad with rage or despair.

I really don't intend to be judgemental, but I am honestly baffled by why Argentines generally are willing to be treated thusly. Obviously some people are getting something out of this situation - perhaps yourself Axel - but I doubt yours is a typical one.

If I were living there I would be buying up pots wholesale.
71 Captain Poppy (#) Oct 31st, 2013 - 07:56 pm Report abuse
Axel You can blow smoke up some people's ass some of the time but not all all of the time. I may be an American but my wife is a in law family still lives in Buenos Aires and I am there at LEAST yearly.

If Argentina does not want more debt.....why borrow from the IDB?
Do you honestly think the website is my source of information about Argentina and Kirchnerism?
What you call nationalization we do too....except there is a process to what we call “eminent domain” and the people MUST be fairly compensated quickly and there is a recourse if they do not agree. Kirchner just takes and that's it.
The dollar clamp is killing the goods available in Argentina....or the lack of it. What is bread no.....75 pesos a loaf......70 two weeks ago. Try and find parts for your computers when they break.
For me it is not a trust issue....but I would never lend her or Argentina money. I am repulsed but what she says and what I see in the streets.......a true dichotomy if ever there was one.
How is that tunnels through the mountains going?
Or the high speed rail?
Again I ask have you seen the imported containers sitting and rusting away at the port in Buenos Aires?
Why would someone give 25 % raises when they claim inflation is 7% WHy? Because they lie to cheat the current bond holders where the interest is based on inflation.

Sell it to someone else Axel
72 axel arg (#) Nov 02nd, 2013 - 10:21 pm Report abuse
I don't judge the progress of the country for what indec or any other alternative index publishes, in fact, i don't believe in any of them. I judge the progress of my country for objetive facts that i can see in reality. I have never denied that we have very serious problems, like poverty, delincuence, institutional violence in different sectors, inflation, corruption etc etc. But according to my ideologies, despite all these problems and more that we still have, there are many achievements that we could get in the last 10 years, which make think and feel that although the government has some serious falencies, there are many achievements to celebrate, it would be too long to explain them here, but i refer to social achievements which didn't exist before.
In relation to inflation, the two main reasons of it are the huge oligopolic concentration that we have in the most important sectors of economy, like food and metal mecanic. and the insufficient statal controlls, in order to avoid the abuses by powerful corporations. In my opinion, i'm not sure whether the government will be able to implement a mecanism to have a better statal controll. Anyway, it's imporant to indicate that despite inflation level, most rases are over inflation indexes, so, workers didn't lose capacity for buying.
In reference to the money that our government borrowes, it just asks for money in order to build infrusctructure, the country doesn't ask for money to pay more debt, as it used to do before, i should have clarified it in my other comment. On the ether hand, i praise the fact that unless you can express your differences without insulting.
73 Casper (#) Nov 03rd, 2013 - 11:52 am Report abuse

Axel, amigo, I wish you the best of luck. You're nothing if not loyal.
It's just a matter of time though before the streets of your cities resound to the sound of pots banging.
74 axel arg (#) Nov 03rd, 2013 - 09:23 pm Report abuse
Don't worry, we have always had pots banging, and we will always have them, because in a democratic country, everybody have right to protest, beside, there won't never be any government in the world which makes happy absolutly all people in a country, because societies like our's, where we have such big social assimetries, there are often fights for power. Beside one of the parts of the work of rullig a country, is to affect interests, there will be presidents who will affect interests in order to benefit much more rich people, in detriment of worker class, and there will be other leaders, who despite the falencies and contradictions of their governments, they will affect interests of powerful people, in order to improve the situations of millions of people who live in precarious conditions.
On the other hand, you made me laugh when you told me twice that i must be part of a minority of argentines who support c. f. k. Let me tell you that in 2011, the 54,11% of voters gave her the posibility of rulling the country for four more years, beside, in last sunday parliamentary election, the winner party argentina was f. p. v. The fact that after 10 years of rulling argentina, c. f. k's party is still the most voted national force, is a privilege that not many political parties around the world can have. Beside, the result of last sunday, let c. f. k's government retains enough majority in both chambers, so, i don't know what you call minority.

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