Thursday, February 6th 2014 - 01:21 UTC

Queen Elizabeth II to meet Pope Francis in April during her visit to Italy

The Queen of England will meet Pope Francis at the Vatican in April during a visit to Italy. Queen Elizabeth II, the formal head of the Church of England, will meet with Pope Francis at the Vatican on April 3 during the one-day visit to Italy.

Since holding the title of Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England, the Queen has met with all popes.

 Both the Pope and the Queen are heads of churches struggling to square increasingly marginalized teachings on sexuality with members who are pushing for change.

In a statement, Buckingham Palace explained that the queen is traveling to Italy for a previously scheduled meeting with the Italian President Giorgio Napolitano, and notes that, “In the interim, a new Pope was elected and Her Majesty will now use this visit as an opportunity to meet His Holiness Pope Francis for the first time”.

The Argentine media has made it a point to underline that the visit to the Vatican to meet Argentine born, Francis, will be taking place a day after the Argentine military invasion of the Falklands which triggered a 74-day conflict with Britain.

Queen Elizabeth II, as head of the United Kingdom, holds the title of Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England. At the advice of the prime minister, she appoints bishops in the Church of England. The Church of England approved the consecration of openly gay bishops in 2013, provided that gay individuals remain celibate, according to the Guardian, and while it is considering rules changes that would permit same-sex marriage, according to Religion News Service, late last month the church postponed any decision.

The Queen signed a law establishing marriage equality in the United Kingdom in June 2013, with a provision that allowed the Church of England to opt out of recognizing the unions.

Elizabeth II has not explicitly mentioned LGBT people in her more than 60 years on the throne. According to Pew Research Centre, 84% of people in Great Britain agree that ”gay men and lesbians should be free to live their own lives as they wish.“

The queen had previously visited the Vatican during the reign of Pope Pius XII when she was Princess Elizabeth, during a state visit in 1962 to meet with Pope John XXIII, and twice during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II, according to Vatican Insider. She welcomed Pope Benedict XVI to Scotland in 2010. The meeting with Pope Francis will be informal, eschewing the trappings of an official state visit.

The Church of England is part of the Anglican Communion, a global Christian denomination with about 77 million members, whose liberal members in western countries have clashed with conservative members in Africa over LGBT issues and women’s ordination in recent years.

The Queen's Communication Secretary issued the following on the visit: ” The Queen, accompanied by The Duke of Edinburgh, will visit Rome on Thursday 3rd April. Her Majesty and His Royal Highness are visiting at the invitation of the President of Italy, President Napolitano.

“The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh will visit the Presidential Palace where they will attend a private lunch hosted by The President.

”Following the private lunch Her Majesty and His Royal Highness will have an Audience with His Holiness Pope Francis at the Vatican”.

65 comments Feed

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1 Anglotino (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:14 am Report abuse
A normal country doing normal things.

Guess we won't see HM making a spectacle of herself or be crass in asking Pope Francis for his holy intervention in the Falkland Islands case so that Argentina can understand the resolutions issued by the United Nations calling them to join the UK at a negotiating table, in order to discuss the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, South Georgia, and South Sandwich islands in the South Atlantic do not mean that the Islanders should be denied self determination.
2 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:34 am Report abuse
1)
Neither the Queen nor the Pope have any real political power. If they would take their job as heads of their respectful churches any seriously, they would be taking steps to stop the islamification of Europe
3 Narine T. Nüster (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 03:37 am Report abuse
How do we expect Argentina to behave “normally” when we EUians, as well as NorthAms, Latin Americans, and ChineseOzies other Asians have been rooting for her destruction? And when many of our nations have actually enacted policies designed to sabotage them?
4 Anglotino (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 04:14 am Report abuse
Nostrils
Piss off mate. Honestly you are already back to ranting. Seems your summer holiday is long forgotten. Argentina's persecution complex is coming along nicely I see.

CabezaDura

The Queen has immense powers. Just because she doesn't exercise them constantly, doesn't mean they don't exist. However her executive power rests with the Prime Minister and Cabinet. As for islamification of Europe, why worry. If there is one thing modern Europe is good at, it is the decline and marginalisation of any religion. A generation will see the same happen to Islam. Other than a few hardcore zealots, Muslim parents just can't compete with the lifestyle.
5 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 05:20 am Report abuse
I think you are confusing symbolism and influence with real power. Right now in Syria there is whole battalions of the new generations of young Muslims born and bred in Europe who have heard the call of the jihad against Assad regime. Multiculturalism has failed. Look these people almost start WWIII after some Danish newspaper had a cartoon of the Prophet with a bomb on his head. Mass protest where also held in Europe where there was significant Muslim minorities. This is a huge debate and can’t be ignored, and often it is not discussed honestly or realistically. How can it be that Muslims are a peaceful minority only in Israel (non Gaza-West Bank)???…..Oooooops not the PC correct thing to say
6 lsolde (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 07:54 am Report abuse
@5 CabezaDura2,
You make some good points.
But the PC crowd will chop you off at the knees if you become too persistant.
You see it everywhere.
l've lost faith with western governments.
A few years ago, “refugees” (are they really?) from the Middle East were allowed to settle in Britain, but the Gurkhas, who loyally fought in our wars, were denied this privilege.
That is disgusting.
We owe the Gurkhas a lot.
lts not the British public,(we wanted them in Britain), its the government.
O dear, l've let my guard down!
But l do so love the Gurkha gentlemen.
7 Gordo1 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 07:56 am Report abuse
As a British Catholic and a devoted Royalist I welcome wholeheartedly this forthcoming visit of Her Majesty to meet the Pontiff. In this instance it will be an informal meeting between two Heads of State - the Vatican and the United Kingdom together with all the other nations of which Her Majesty is Head of State of which Grenada(see another thread!) is one!
Argentina will not be able to make any political or diplomatic advantage of this event. It will be interesting to see if they try!
8 Anglotino (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 07:59 am Report abuse
CabezaDura2

If I had a dollar for every time someone who doesn't live in a multicultural country told me that multiculturalism has failed, then I'd retire.

Multiculturalism hasn't failed. What fails is half hearted multiculturalism that is more akin to assimilation. France and Germany are examples of this. Britain, Canada, US, Australia, Singapore and New Zealand are not failures. Don't equate small problems and issues with wholesale failure. That's a simplistic and shallow understanding.

25% of Australians were born overseas and 25% have a parent born overseas. 50% or 11.5 million people are part of our multicultural failure? So what if there are problems and issues along the way. They should be faced and tackled. It doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bath water.

As for the Queen, I am not at all confused. While the Crown is indeed a symbol, that doesn't mean that the Crown doesn't pack some real power. Coming from a presidential system and Argentina you are more likely to equate power with someone who continuously exercises it. The Crown's powers are as much convention as codified. The stability of the Commonwealth Realm's constitutional monarchy makes the Queen seem a mere figurehead, however the reality is very different. If you knew more about our system then you wouldn't be making such ignorant assumptions.
9 Vestige (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 01:36 pm Report abuse
8 - how does French and German multiculturalism differ from that in GB ?
10 Andy65 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 01:36 pm Report abuse
Remember when Kirchner met THE NEW ITALIAN POPE last year and they exchanged kisses to which Kirchner says “WOOOOOOO I HAVE NEVER BEEN KISSED BY A POPE BEFORE” you can be sure Her Majesty will conduct herself in a more professional manner,Kirchner might even accuse The Queen of trying to militarise The Vatican.
11 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 01:46 pm Report abuse
I’m asking you a straight forward question and you are not answering me, I know the answer but I want you to really think, investigate and ask yourself why the Muslims within Israel itself are by far more peaceful than in any other Western country … Islam is not only a religion it is also an ideology. I don’t understand the difference between those Anglo-Saxon background nations to that of Germany and France, perhaps the first are even more PC… Or is it uncomfortable for you because Angela Merkel said herself that Multiculturalism has failed?? And Germany did not even have attacks like 7/7 or the random murder of its soldiers in the streets.

The first waves of Muslims to arrive in Western Europe came in the 1960s and 1970s over 40 years ago, don’t you think they have enjoyed more than enough time to settle in peacefully.
12 Andy65 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:00 pm Report abuse
CabezaDura2, The Muslims are perhaps slightly more peaceful in Israel because they know what will happen if they step out of line-the Jews don't piss around you know and if you think Britain as ignored any UN resolutions then take a look how many Israel as ignored with respect to Arabs and the occupied territories they don't give a flying foooooook
13 LEPRecon (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:09 pm Report abuse
@11 CD

So, in your opinion, because a handful of Muslims commit crimes that means ALL Muslims commit crimes?

So because a handful of Argentinians murdered nuns by throwing them out of a plane over the river Plate, that means ALL Argentinians are nun killers too?

Nice philosophy you have.

It's obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I live in Birmingham which has a large Muslim population. I work with Muslims everyday.

They are British citizens. They are proud to be British. They have no problem with Britain.

A few weeks ago one guy I work with was showing me photographs of his daughter who stared as the Virgin Mary in the schools nativity play. He was extremely proud of her. Fancy that, Muslims fathers being proud of their daughters for being in a Christian play!!!

So basically you had a Muslim playing the part of the mother of Christ. It doesn't bother the Muslims because they believe that Jesus was a Prophet just like Mohammed.

British Muslims are no different than British Christians, British Hindu's, British Bhuddists, British Jews, British Satanists, British Jedi Knights or British Aethiests. The key word here is British.

That means that they are the same nationality. They believe in the same basic values and standards as other British people. It means that they celebrate Christmas, watch the Queen's Speech at 3pm every Christmas day, and buy their children Christmas presents.

It's obvious that you are afraid of anyone who is different to you.

You obviously believe that multi-culturism has failed. That is your opinion, and I believed fuelled by ignorance and/or fear.

I believe that it hasn't failed. People are people at the end of the day regardless of race, creed or colour.

As for the Queen, Anglotino is correct. She has a lot of power, but chooses to only excerice it when it is required, and then only for the benefit of the people and the country, not the benefit of the politicians.
14 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:33 pm Report abuse
13
It is not what Britons have told me… You may have your opinion of the situation just as I have. But facts are facts.

It’s not about fear about what is different; it’s about reality and common sense. If you had a shred of that and honesty towards yourself you should ask yourself many times have you seeing on the streets of Birmingham or in a bus a Muslim girl hold hands with a white Christian boy ?? There are not allowed too.

There was no openness and tolerance for the Pied noirs in Algeria after the French forces left. Just as there was no tolerance for whites in Zimbabwe, Namibia nor there will be in South Africa in the future.
The soldiers who were throwing guerillas-students-nuns, etc to the lake that is a few km from me were obeying orders from their superiors. They were not obeying any divine mandate from heaven.
15 Andy65 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:45 pm Report abuse
CabezaDura2,Concentrate on dethroning your Botox Queen everything else is irrelevant.
16 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 02:49 pm Report abuse
15) I will post and comment wherever I please. I have made more than enough comments about that.
17 Eddieposted (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 03:16 pm Report abuse
For once I agree with an argentine.....
Christians of all types need to stick together or they will be overrun and destroyed by islam.
18 Rufus (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 03:20 pm Report abuse
I think she's now on her seventh pope now...
19 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 03:55 pm Report abuse
It's interesting to note that both the CoE and RCC are making strides towards a greater acceptance of homosexuality amongst their flock, something unthinkable, particularly for the latter institution, for much of my lifetime.

I believe though, that what the Church's need to do more than anything else, is allow women to play a much greater leadership role. It seems beyond perverse to me, especially considering their continual failure ( and this applies to both institutions in my country ) to come to turns with the sexual and other abuse of children and protection of the perpetrators, not to take advantage of the qualities that women can bring to this role.

They certainly couldn't do a worse job.

@CD2

I can't speak to conditions in Europe regarding Muslim assimilation, or lack thereof, but in Oz I think than any people who place distinct and often strict limits on their behaviour are going to have difficulties living in a society that is almost militantly secular - we are quite different from the U.S. in that respect. We give our children far more latitude, for instance, that a traditional Muslim family would allow. And the issue of how women dress is always on the menu.

So far militant muslim's haven't done much damage - there have been terrorist plots, but they are always amateurs, they are always infiltrated and they can never keep their mouths shut. Bin-Laden would be ashamed of them. They always get caught, convicted and receive long prison terms.

I think being part of what we like to think is a free, open society means giving recent arrivals the opportunity - the choice - to decide how they wish to live, how much of the culture to adopt before we judge whether letting them in was a mistake.

So, as far as this part of the world is concerned, I disagree with you in a general sense, but it's a conversation that has to take place, so well done for taking the risk.
20 Andy65 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 04:20 pm Report abuse
@ CabezaDura2 Do you think the above photo of The Queen and Pope will make Cristina crazy?
21 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 04:37 pm Report abuse
19
Yes they have to decide in what society they want t live in but the fact that you are watching it from a point of view that it may be only a small minority that is only planning bombs and who seem to be really fanatical and that so far they haven’t being successful then you will be kidding yourself. The fact that Muslim girls are not allowed by their parents to date and marry white Christian males while a Muslim guy can knock as many white liberal women he wants to, has not only a childish racist and machista attitude, it also has a profound meaning that your sons are not worthy of their own daughters, and I’m sorry to say this but you are being taken by fools or at least I would feel very offended if I were you. You can’t have a really fair and multicultural society with this sort of attitude, integration should work the two ways not one side bending over backwards due to political correctness. There was no political correctness for my ancestors that were forced left Algeria. So why are they burning Paris in 2005?? Or why they run sacked London in 2011??

And like this there is so but sooo many different examples of…
22 ck177 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 07:42 pm Report abuse
@20

Oh Oh British Kuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin seeking BIG picha!
23 Briton (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 08:13 pm Report abuse
[22] grow up please,

The queen will do her job explicitly, and the pope will do the same,

and I doubt very much, that the Falkland's will ever be mentioned,

they things are arranged well into the future,
and both will respect each other,

so stop worrying ,
the queen has over 50 years experience of doing these things...
24 ck177 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 08:22 pm Report abuse
@23

PICHA!
25 Gordo1 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 09:00 pm Report abuse
For how long has “Thick Head” been making such inane commentaries around here? I think he should be ignored - he'll soon go away!
26 pgerman (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 09:02 pm Report abuse
The meeting with the Pope, the UK Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh will join the Protestantism, the catholisim and the freemasonry. They are the pillars of Europe and Occident. What a meeting !!!

They represent the values, culture and traditions of Europe a Occident but they were born in two countries confronted by a portion of land.

Ironically they will be two british and an Argentine. What a symbol...I cannot wait to see that picture !!!
27 Conqueror (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 09:52 pm Report abuse
@2 You should start by understanding that “Britain” is a constitutional monarchy entitled the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What it may change its name to if Scotland secedes in not yet known. However, the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is conceivable. The next point is that the “British government” is actually Her Majesty's Government. Notably, Her Majesty has the power to dismiss and appoint a Prime Minister. Other powers can be seen here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_constitutional_law
Bear in mind that the Prime Minister usually has weekly audiences with Her Majesty. She sees most high-level documents. I suggest that it would be a fairly arrogant Prime Minister who didn't listen to the views of the person who appointed him/her and who also has 62 years of knowledge and experience. Might not be the best idea to write her off in such a cavalier fashion.
@3 Numpty.
@6 Gurkhas are terrific people. Met quite a few. Not to be confused with Nepalis. My father fought with the Gurkhas in India during WW2. They presented hom with a kukri. I still have it. A much-prized possession! And there are plenty of Gurkhas, and their families, close to where I live. I was quite proud to add my name to the petition demanding that they be properly treated.
@14 Let me try to help you. Britons don't “hate” muslims per se. Those that Britons do hate are the fundamentalist, jihadist muslims. We are also less than keen on those that they “radicalise” by misrepresentation and lies. The problem is telling the difference. And therefore we must be wary.
@22 I expect the Pope will be greatly honoured to meet someone whose position is so much greater than his. And who has occupied that position for so much longer. He may ask for advice. It's always worth remembering that the Church of England (Anglican Communion) broke the “power” of the Catholic Church.
28 ck177 (#) Feb 06th, 2014 - 11:18 pm Report abuse
“he might ask for advice”??????????

The only thing this “queen” knows is to keep her palatial residences frigidly under heated and saves her bathtub water for her garden,
beside being a very uneducated old woman she never took care of her looks: Old and FAT!
The Enquire says she may drop dead soon.
29 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 12:10 am Report abuse
LOL Gordo… Good question how long have you being around for?? Yet you get to be ignored most of the time but now I remembered you existed…

27
Definately not a small minority who is the problem... Your papers dont even want to publish the real census on demographic questions and their feelings towards homosexuality, terrorism, antisemitism, equality of women, etc

Sharia Law and Middle Class Feminism
www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/sharia-law-and-middle-class-feminism

3,500 girls are at risk of mutilation in the capital
www.standard.co.uk/news/3500-girls-are-at-risk-of-mutilation-in-the-capital-6372640.html

Derby men jailed for giving out gay death call leaflets
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-16985147

Children's minister: Asian communities hampering child sex inquiries
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8594004/Childrens-minister-Asian-communities-hampering-child-sex-inquiries.html

Islamist stops university debate with threats of violence
www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/01/islamist-stops-university-debate-with-threats-of-violence?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nssnews+%28NSS+News%29

hurryupharry.org/2013/01/22/more-on-the-east-london-mosque-and-homophobia/

Sharia courts ‘as consensual as rape’, House of Lords told
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9621319/Sharia-courts-as-consensual-as-rape-House-of-Lords-told.html
30 Anglotino (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 12:59 am Report abuse
CabezaDura2

You are confusing examples of problems with the wholesale failure of an idea.

You can list as many examples and links as you want. I have read back over your comments and they seem to concentrate on Islam.

No one is denying that there is a problem with integration for some people; however this cannot be extrapolated out to a problem for EVERY person. Yes, some Muslims are intolerant of woman's equality and homosexuality or marrying outside their culture. And yet for every example you can find I could find the exact opposite. The difference is that you don't get a newspaper article about you if you integrate and live your life happily coexisting with others do you?

For instance, there was a large fire in Argentina this week. I am sure there are plenty of buildings that burn down in Argentina. Can I therefore assume that all buildings are burning down in Argentina? I mean, unless there are newspaper articles actually stating that a building is NOT burning down, how can anyone refute my claim?

I know plenty of Muslims. Indeed the nickname for Lebanese and many Middle Easterners in Melbourne is Muzza - from Muslim. I know gay Muslims. Do their parents know? Usually not. But their brothers and sisters do. And for the next generation it will be even more acceptable.

As I said, you don't really come from a multicultural country. Argentina's immigrants were predominantly from a small area that shared similar languages and religion. Places like Australia are not like that. We have eventually found a place in society for all those that come. First the Greeks and Italians came and then the Yugoslavians. And you were supposed to marry within your community once and now it isn’t an issue. Then came the Lebanese and then the Vietnamese, the Chinese, the Indians, Africans and many different types of Muslims. They bring their food and customs and we take them on too and they bit by bit take on some of ours.

There are always problems. But that is all they are.
31 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 01:46 am Report abuse
30

Well for starters what I understand is that the Australian immigration policy is much more “picky” than the free for all refugee and open tolerance policies in Europe.. But it is likely that Oz is in the stage Europe was in the 1960s and 1970s.

But look you can go along and keep hiding you heads in the sand, at least in the case of Europe there is a real problem they won’t even recognize media, politicians, liberal society.…You can call me whatever you feel like. But you cannot alter truth and fact.
I know you hate history but here comes a Little big disturbing fact. Muslims for their entire history have being blocked in their own version of the 30 years war and we are seeing it now grow more than ever before, this war has raged almost since the 800s a hundred years or so after Islam’s existence came about.. Of course Christendom has already had its own wars, power struggles and differences but they have being settled centuries ago in the Dark Ages it was the Roman Church vs. Byzantine Greek Orthodox church and in the 1500s and 1600s it was about Catholics vs Protestants. So you can have the head of the Anglican Church visiting the Pope in Rome, no big deal but you are not seeing king Abdullah having a coffee with the Ayatollah of Iran in your life time.
I’m sorry but if they can’t settle their differences amongst themselves for over MILENIUMS unless they are living under totalitarian, oppressive and ruthless regimes like in Syria of Assad or Saddam’s Iraq then lesser can they do so in a free open western society.

I’m not saying that you should deport them or forcé them into other religión like christianity, in fact I don’t know what the solution is, but certainly you should start being honest with yourselves and admitting you have a problem and abandon the most retarded PC mentality that is not allowing you to see what’s written in the wall and adopt a much more realistic view of things. IMO I think THIS Islam will walk over you
32 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 02:50 am Report abuse
@21 CD2

I acknowledge what you say about your ancestors in Algeria - my own ancestors and most of my relatives in Tanzania ( where I was born ), Kenya and Uganda all had to leave shortly after independence. Other than regretting that I have no memories of my birthplace I bear no bitterness though - my family, on both sides weren't there to integrate with native Africans, they were there to enjoy a lifestyle not possible in their homelands and to take advantage of economic opportunities also not otherwise available to them. To the winners go the spoils. So be it.

You could be right about my country regarding a '60's & 70's stage relative to Europe. Muslim's in Oz comprise a smaller minority and have very little political power. I also acknowledge the ancient rivalry between Sunni's and Shia. It doesn't speak well for their ability to resolve conflict.

But none of this has spilled over into this country so far. The University incident you referred to would be unthinkable here. There have been problems with the Lebanese community in Sydney but that has much to do with legacies from the civil war and many Lebanese are Christians. Somali refugees too have brought much baggage from their own civil conflicts. It's not religious zealotry that is the source of their angst.

It's far too early to adopt radical changes in attitude regarding the Muslim community IMO. We don't have the problems that France ( Moroccan, Algerian ) Britain ( Pakistani ) and Germany ( Turkish ) have. Our communities are much more disparate. And as a whole they are no more given to socially unacceptable behaviour than the community as a whole. Time will tell.
33 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 03:55 am Report abuse
But “they were there to enjoy a lifestyle not possible in their homelands and to take advantage of economic opportunities also not otherwise available to them.” applies just as much to most of the Algerians that the first thing they did after Independence is move to the suburbs of Paris instead of creating their own free and prosperous democracy….And where received with open arms by the new welfare multicultural French state of the post war….This is of course after threatening and killing Algeria's own whites who had being the base of its economy and agriculture. After they pied noirs left, Algeria collapsed, the same happened in Zimbabwe the bread basket of Africa when Mugabe land grabbed from the whites and implanted this racist dictatorship that endures sinse the early 1980s. Under the concept of the winner takes the spoils, France could have simply committed genocide in North Africa or at least split up French populations vs Muslim populations.
The Muslims have their fair deal of incursions in Europe and the Medditerranean specially the famous Berber pirates of Algeria, so they were in no way victims.

And as to the Muslims in Europe are they integrating??

I'm not bitter; I’m simply putting things into perspective and mentioning what is not fair. Why should a country that is open and free have to receive in open arms migrants especially from those countries who are racist and intolerant and have a fundamental cultural difference that it obliges them to collide with the host country??

Im sorry it doesn’t make any sense for me.
34 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 04:45 am Report abuse
@33

Yes North African Muslim's have done their share of raping and pillaging - it's where the term 'white-slavery' comes from which continued on into the twentieth century. And I'm not suggesting my lack of bitterness over my family's situation means you must be over yours. I'm also aware of the irony of Algerians fighting a savage war for independence and then pulling up stakes for a more comfortable life in France.

That's what happens in the wake of colonial occupation - the lines become blurred. Loyalties become a matter of life and death. And all the repressed feelings caused by occupation and ensuing conflicts are free to be released. And the people belonging to the 'occupying class' become targets because they are there. Available to be targets. It might not be fair, but the cause and effect are easily apparent.

I think the attitudes regarding acceptance of migrants have their origin in WW2 and the evidence of what happens when racial intolerance reaches it's logical conclusion i.e. The Final Solution.

It's possible that the difficulties some muslim's have in accepting European values might require a re-think. I really don't know. I'm just grateful it's not a problem for my nation.
35 Anglotino (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 07:49 am Report abuse
CabezaDura2

“I know you hate history”

Huh? I do not. Please don't make claims about me that are untrue.

First off, Australia's immigration isn't picky. We are currently admitting about 350,000 immigrants PER YEAR. That's about 3.5 million per decade at this moment. What we do differently to Europe is integrate immigrants. We allow them to become Australian. We allow them to deal with the government in their native tongue. We make their culture part of our own mainstream. It is how we deal with them. Australia isn't Europe in the 1960s or 70s because we have learnt those mistakes. Australia is successful. You can't deny it.

Well for starters what I understand is that the Australian immigration policy is much more “picky” than the free for all refugee and open tolerance policies in Europe.. But it is likely that Oz is in the stage Europe was in the 1960s and 1970s.

According to our 2011 census there are 475,000 Muslims in Australia. A 40% increase in 5 years. And what is the result?

I don't have my head in the sand. I recognise that there are issues and problems. Australia is having a problem with many youths from Africa at the moment. Coming from war-torn countries such as Somalia and Sudan, they are having problems integrating. Is this because they are African? No! It is because they are sometimes traumatised by their experiences. Or perhaps they didn't have an education and therefore are unemployable here. Sometimes it is cultural as they have to learn what is acceptable in a liberal democracy like Australia. The fact is the root of a problem can't always be prescribed to a generalised cause.

A simplistic explanation is because they are African. The true is much more complex. And because of that, the problem will slowly disappear.
36 Anglotino (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 07:53 am Report abuse
I know the Islam did not have a enlightenment like Christian Europe. I know that there's conflict between Shias and Shiites. “I’m sorry but if they can’t settle their differences amongst themselves..... living under totalitarian, oppressive and ruthless regimes.... then lesser can they do so in a free open western society.”

That is where you are wrong. It is where you miss the most important part of this whole debate. You believe that Islam can only affect liberal democracies and forget that Muslims themselves are also affected by these countries.

25% of Australia reported no religion during the 2011 census. Religion is of declining importance because we AREN'T “totalitarian, oppressive and ruthless regimes”. We don't suppress or try to shape the way people think through force. That is the common theme in these countries that have extremely militant Muslims. While there will always be fringe radicals for any cause or religion in any country, the simply fact is that large segments of the Muslim population in any liberal democracy is not radicalised. It is the opposite. They are quite happy to be part of the societies they live in. Our society changes them. It educates them, it gives them opportunities they never had and exposes them to different cultural mores. The older generation resists such changes but they are powerless to do the same for their children.

“And as to the Muslims in Europe are they integrating??”

Yes and no! Where they are able to let their culture and religion flourish as part of their new societies then they are integrating. There will always be those that resist or refuse. But they are a minority. I am not saying everything is perfect but you have this vision of societal collapse being just around the corner. And that isn't true.
37 Anglotino (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 07:54 am Report abuse
“Why should a country that is open and free have to receive in open arms migrants especially from those countries who are racist and intolerant and have a fundamental cultural difference that it obliges them to collide with the host country??”

Because that is what makes our countries so great. It is the reason that people choose to leave behind their old countries whether for economic reasons or because they see a better future for themselves and families in liberal democracies.

Becoming racist and intolerant would not improve our lives so we continue to receive migrants with open arms. Because that is one of the foundations of our success and prosperity. We do not tar the individual with all the sins of their country or society. Who am I to say to a four year old Afghani girl that my country cannot welcome you because you are obviously racist, intolerant and uneducated. Or because her parents are.

Muslims living in places like Australia have been changed by living here. Slowly change happens and they become Australian. Just because they have a different religion to me doesn't make them any less Australian.
38 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 10:11 am Report abuse
Anglotino

Wow…. Now that is flowery.. A French socialist liberal living in a bubble in the 1960s would have spoken like you…The underlining factor of your post is you get right this time because we are
AAAAUUUUSSSSSSTRRRRAAAALLLLIIIIIIAAAAAA !!!!!

All what you say in those (3??) posts is based on assumptions not on any real substantial fact or reason.

First you implied that immigration policies were successful in the UK, Canada, Singapur, NZ, AUS, US while Germany & France were different… You obviously abandoned that by now and focus on Oz.

Regarding your fire analogy… If you would say to me that the fires always come about in Barracas, in the same sort of facility over and over again, then yes there is obviously a problem in that particular neighborhood or type of building.

Look I can hit in Google problems related with the Muslims in Oz and I can find any amount of cases. Its just a matter of numbers and size that make matters different from Europe.

I said Oz is picky because of this case.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97c2hnPoD4

There is a very well known Syrian blogger of the Assad regime campainign in your country, as well as people wanting to go and fight overthere and answer jihad.
www.youtube.com/user/SyrianGirlpartisan
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4dEeoL6QP8

Im sorry but the only country who has got it right so far is ISRAEL...
39 Clyde15 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 11:18 am Report abuse
The trouble with immigration is that the population bring their problems with them from the “old country” and pass it down to the following generations in the forms of myths and legends. Internecine troubles surface if there are wars or uprisings in their country of birth. The host country then gets involved in the problem with cries to support one side or the other.
I don't think a week passes in London without some ethnic group protesting outside a London Embassy. The “white ethnic Brits.” usually have no idea what it is about and care even less.
Often it is the children of the original immigrants who are confused about their identity. If you look different from the people around you and you still retain the customs and behaviour of your parents then you cannot assimilate into society. Basically, they have dual allegiance.
The problem is, which is the stronger. Bring religion into it and you have a very volatile situation.
This problem has been ongoing for countless generations. If you are of a religious persuasion and the government passes a law which conflicts with your religious beliefs, eg gay marriage or abortion, how do you reconcile this?
Muslims cannot accept this as the Qur'an is deemed to be the direct word of God and cannot be questioned and neither can the Prophet Muhammed's writings.

The only country where immigration has been successful has been the USA with the black population. They were brought over as slaves hundreds of years ago and their original identity has been lost - obviously Africa - but the exact locations and tribal regions have been lost. They had to turn to the country they were in and have become citizens of that land more so than other immigrant groups arriving in the late 19th century. As such they have no secondary allegiance to a foreign land.
40 Briton (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 11:20 am Report abuse
And no doubt in the centuries to come,
we will see emigration to the stars..
41 JollyGoodFun (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 12:20 pm Report abuse
On the condition the next world war isn't the end of our species.
42 Briton (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 06:23 pm Report abuse
well they do say things run in threes,
WW1
WW2
WW??
43 ck177 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 06:56 pm Report abuse
da unnnnnnnglishhhhhhhh
cuuuuuuuuuuuuuin waaaaaaaaaaants PICHA
44 1706 (#) Feb 07th, 2014 - 08:55 pm Report abuse
Twit
45 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 12:48 am Report abuse
@38 CD2

You're right about some jihadi's travelling to Syria to fight. I'm quite ok with them going since it's a fair assumption that they will achieve their matyrdom and/or will not be returning. If that's where their primary allegiance lies...I don't want them.
46 Anglotino (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 03:34 am Report abuse
Me neither.

And they still have to try and get back into Australia, which isn't as easy as it sounds.
47 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 04:09 am Report abuse
@45
HC

Well its your gov't thats preventing them from leaving in the first place, the gentleman in the debate can simply book a ticket to Lebanon and cross the border.

@Anglotino

It is not a nice world outhere…If you believe that your downtown Melbourne/Sydney liberal PC bubble is the world and anyone can adapt to it you are up for a terrible shock. You know damn well that in most of the countries and places you would be oppressed and executed due to your sexual orientation.
48 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 04:56 am Report abuse
@47 CD2

Yes, all true. Btw, have you noticed that Al-Qaeda has now severed ties with the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant ( ISIS ), now fighting in Syria. Too independent it seems, or maybe even Al-Qaeda draws the line at human liver-consumption.
49 Anglotino (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 08:04 am Report abuse
CabezaDura2

I have travelled through 28 countries on every inhabited continent so I know a fair bit of what is out there.

But what you said only proves my point. Considering how small Australia is and considering how multicultural we are and with 50% of our population either immigrants or first generation Australian; we still manage to be a liberal democracy.

With so much conflict out there, so much homophobia, so muh religious hatred, so much racism and intolerance; we still manage I bring in about 350,000 people from many of these countries and integrate them. They want to live here.

I don't expect people to adapt to our lifestyle elsewhere but I do if they live here. And eventually they do. It generational but it happens. They lose their native tongue, they become less religious and they marry outside their culture. The statistics back me up. I've also seen this from personal experience. The brothers of my ex are all living with Aussies, their children don't speak Spanish and have no religion. The extent of their Spanish is abuelita and abuelito. It happens to them all eventually.

As or me living in a liberal PC bubble, first off I centre-right. Secondly I've seen enough of the world and my own country to know that what we have is a rarity and fragile. And yet also extremely resilient.

We don't have to threaten people's identity like Israel does. Not do we have to destroy their identity like the US did to its slaves. We give them the freedom and ability to make the changes themselves.

And enough do it so that those that choose not to are powerless to stop it.

That's our strength, we disempower the radicals and the bigots and the zealots so that they can only exist on the fringe.
50 JollyGoodFun (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 01:01 pm Report abuse
The Queen and Royal Family are a very positive force in the world. I for one embrace a constitutional monarchy system. She is and will continue to be the head of state of numerous successful nations. She will continue also to put her subjects before politics and ideologies. God save the Queen.
51 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 02:23 pm Report abuse
@ HC

Indeed only Al Nusra seems to have being recognized by Al Qaeda ISIS has gone full independent. It seems their leader Baghdadi has followed his own ambitions and has his own plans. He wants a new Caliphate of Iraq and Syria, he fights in a conventional way i.e. regular armies, up front battles and territorial occupation and consolidation instead of terrorism and guerrilla tactics. Zawahiri has tried to take back control of ISIS, but has failed. The guy is already too powerful and independent. The million dollar question is if the Saudis favor him with guns and money...

www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/02/iraq-isis-baghdadi-mystery.html

@Anglotino

Fair enough but have you actually worked, made business, deals, discussed politics and had social affairs and really lived amongst a third world country or have you being simply watching sites which are designed to get a buck out of a tourist??

I will recognize that in that debate in Oz TV the deputy police commissioner who is Egyptian is actually the most integrated and seem very professional. However the rest of the panel has their hearts and minds elsewhere… From the young bimbo-blogger pro Assad regime to the jihadists that want to fight him, they all do. There is even PRO ASSAD manifestations in your streets.

All that you said Australia enables for them has already being enabled for them in Europe 40 years ago in the past. And it has failed.
52 DanyBerger (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 02:48 pm Report abuse
Does anyone notes that The Ukistan Queen seems to have an African ancestor in his family tree?
53 Clyde15 (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 03:38 pm Report abuse
#52
We have missed you ! You are back in form. When can we expect kebabs and pyjamas and other pearls of wisdom !
54 DanyBerger (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 04:24 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
55 Briton (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 06:49 pm Report abuse
Everybody descends from Africa,
56 Clyde15 (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 07:45 pm Report abuse
#55
Although some Argentinian trolls such as D.B. seem to have take the simian route!
57 Briton (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 07:57 pm Report abuse
ha ha .
58 ck177 (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 09:29 pm
Comment removed by the editor.
59 lsolde (#) Feb 08th, 2014 - 10:14 pm Report abuse
And proud of it!, yourself?
ji ji ji
ldiota
60 Anglotino (#) Feb 09th, 2014 - 12:35 am Report abuse
CabezaDura2

I've backpacked and spent 4 years outside of Australia working, volunteering and travelling. I never spent more that A$50 on accommodation and prefer hostels. My most endearing memories include changing trains in Morocco; which entailed my bf and I jumping off one moving train and having our backpacks thrown to us and then running along another moving train and having to throw our backpacks up to strangers before jumping aboard. It ended with us sharing tea, snacks and playing cards with some Moroccans all without a word in common. The time I slept with homeless people on a beach in Hawaii because I missed the last bus to my hostel from the airport. The time I hitchhiked from London to Dublin but ended up in Belfast. Having a whirlwind romance in Bogotá that started with nothing more than a glance on a street.

So yes I have lived and have seen and have some life experiences to back me up.

You keep trying to fit all multicultural countries into the same mould. Not all are successful. You think we are Europe 40 years ago but Europe 40 years ago didn't have multiculturalism. It had assimilation. Immigrants were expected to become French or German or Dutch or British by giving up their languages and culture. Only slowly did these countries change but they are still dealing with the legacy of this. We don't have a legacy of failed immigration.

25% of France, Germany, UK are not immigrants. But we are. 50% of these countries are not immigrants or first generation immigrants. But we are. That is higher than the US.

And we have plenty of Assad supporters in Australia. Why shouldn't we. We don't tell people what to think. We have plurality of opinions and allegiances in Australia. We don't ask people to give up their beliefs or their origins.

As long as they don't attempt to subvert Australia. If they wish to become jihadists then they will live with the consequences.

Multiculturalism is not successful if everyone assimilates and thinks the same.
61 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 09th, 2014 - 01:42 am Report abuse
No Anglotino I talked exclusively about Europe in #2, it is you that actually came along saying AUS, NZ, UK, US, CAN, Singapore differ in the immigration policy towards that of Germany and France.
LOL…Playing cards and having snacks with on a Moroccan wagon train counts for it ??? Common where did you work??… In a third world country or in Europe/ NA?? Have really you worked for a living in a 3rd world country and with that money you paid yourself backpacking along??…Where were the majority of your work/volunteer mates from?? I know how tourism works if you even volunteer somewhere in Africa you are going to be insured and pay with AUS dollars to be well serviced.

But look in the end it doesn’t matter, because even considering all this bla bla bla all open society of yours, 25% born overseas, Anglotino the hard facts are you are just 2.2% Muslim in Oz, compare that to Germany 4.6-5.2%, France 4%, UK +4,4%, Sweden 5,2%, Netherlands 5% (2006), Spain 3%, plus 3-4% Moorish descent , Belgium +6%, Switzerland 4,9%... So yes …You may have had a lot of immigration in the past years but in average you are less than half the amount of Muslims in your own country than the Europeans have…

Paradox is the more north you travel across Europe the more Islamic it gets, Mediterranean countries like Portugal, Italy and Greece have far fewer less Muslims immigrants

Now it is you think or believe the only succesful country so far has being Israel??
62 Heisenbergcontext (#) Feb 09th, 2014 - 02:16 am Report abuse
@51 CD2

Interesting site. That is much more specific information than any I have seen before. Baghdadi seems much smarter than his predecessors. Stealing Al-Quaeda's income stream?!
63 CabezaDura2 (#) Feb 09th, 2014 - 02:35 am Report abuse
62

Maybe ; ) he definately does seem like a guy thats here to stay. Maybe the Saudis are dont want to get stuck too much with Al Qaeda.

Yes al monitor is very good; it has a good insight on the juicy game play behind the Middle Eastern political curtains. Western media like BBC, CNN and other don’t have the same in depth analysis. Al Jazeera has good documentaries but it is slightly biased and pro Saudi/Golf States as it’s founded by the Qataris. Iranian Press Tv is trash. Haaretz is OK too from time to time. JMO
64 ck177 (#) Feb 09th, 2014 - 11:07 pm Report abuse
@59 poor isolde....

no money to buy a CT-Scanner for the islanders
or
earn $6,000 to buy 2 tickets for her husband Captain PoopyButts “inlaws”...
cheap british slut!
jijiji
65 lsolde (#) Feb 10th, 2014 - 09:44 am Report abuse
@64 ck177,
l could be anything, fool, but l am not cheap.
You couldn't afford me, for starters.

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