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UN human rights expert calls on Argentina to urgently protect indigenous peoples

Wednesday, May 25th 2016 - 08:59 UTC
Full article 55 comments

The United Nations human rights expert on racism urged Argentina to take urgent measures to sustainably address the invisibility, marginalization and systematic exclusion of indigenous peoples in the country. The UN assessed during a week in Argentina, the situation of indigenous peoples, peoples of African descent, migrants from the region and beyond, and other groups. Read full article

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  • James Marshall

    Oh dear, quite embarrassing.

    And this a few days after the launching of the 'Humanitarian approach' to the Islanders.

    Gun, foot.....you know the rest

    '....and the establishment of a number of institutions aiming at promoting human rights and anti-discrimination, such as the National Institute Against Discrimination, Xenophobia and Racism,”

    Having a department name tag on the cleaning cupboard door is one thing, but you actually need people to work and do something in these institutions.

    May 25th, 2016 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Never trust a country that wants to take everything you have got,

    including your identity, Argentina should give back all the land to the indigenous peoples that they stole from,
    and if that mean giving up the whole of Argentina and having to go back to Spain or wherever, so be it.

    Poor Argentina falling foul of even the UN now...lol

    May 25th, 2016 - 12:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Thats right Argies, get back to Spain where you can help grow tomatoes and Peppers for us Brits. We may have a few vacancies here for waiters too.

    May 25th, 2016 - 01:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CapiTrollism_is_back!!

    The above three are all the evidence one needs about the need for a final solution to the Anglo problem.

    No Anglos, the greatest oppressors of other cultures in world history, no problem!

    May 25th, 2016 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @4 While the UK was conducting hydrographic surveys of the Argentine coasts, because Argentina was incapable of doing so, Argentina was running its legendary genocides, which resulted in the destruction of every indigenous culture in the region and the murder of most of its indigenous inhabitants. Argentina would go on to adopt British technology, capital, agronomy, and management. Even the Argentine legislative system was founded on the parliamentary system developed by the British, though its ability to corrupt even that is something that might be proudly considered to be uniquely Argentine.

    May 25th, 2016 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @4 Tobias

    Why aren't you, a Native Amerindian, demanding the European settlers in your country be brought to justice for the crimes against YOUR people?

    Oh that's right you only pretended to be a native Amerindian. You don't care about them at all, and want them all exterminated for 'daring' to criticise the WHITE EUROPEANS who committed acts of genocide against them.

    And please provide proof that the British (not Anglos - there are no such thing) have oppressed other cultures in world history? You do realise that world history is 10,000 or more years old, don't you?

    You do realise that England was only formed about 1 and a half thousand years ago? You do also realise that England was invaded by many different people's and cultures over that time, don't you?

    So please so ACTUAL cases where the British oppressed the cultures of other people?

    At the same time you can tell us all about the systematic acts of DELIBERATE genocide committed by YOUR ancestors, 1st under the guise of the Spanish Empire, the later when Argentina enacted its 'whitening' policy, where you murdered all the African slaves, and butchered the majority of the native population.

    You can then elaborate on why such an 'enlightened' place as Argentina still continues to enact that same 'whitening' policy in the 21st century, when all civilised countries consider such acts deplorable.

    Come on Tobias, prove your statement about the British and try to defend YOUR countries actions.

    And please none of the crap about these 'native Amerindians' actually coming from Chile. The natives didn't have borders, you European squatters in Argentina forced those borders on them, after murdering the majority of them.

    May 25th, 2016 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • chronic

    And rg wants to vie for un leadership? Snicker.

    May 25th, 2016 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • MALVINERO SUPREMO

    JAJaj NOTHING compares with the brtuish BRUTALITY in history..India,Africa,CHina...Killing and slaving millions of innocente people,controlling the Salt Supply in India to control them..BTW,the indigenous people HAVE the same right as any Argentines.Free education,free health care,acces to welfare.Since the kirchner administration,for many people is economically better,not to work.There are many cases in which Argentine people,refuse jobs,because the benefits are LOWER than living off welfare,and I know many cases..So,the indigenoues HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS has anybody else.....

    May 25th, 2016 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    6 LEPRecon
    you have now stumped @4 Tobias,

    that is the last we will from him with a decent reply.

    May 25th, 2016 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Nostril, Tobi, Brarsehole now speechless lol!

    May 25th, 2016 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @8 Tobias

    So you can't actually provide any PROOF of the statements you made @4. So instead you change your 'handle' once more and try to pretend to be someone else to 'prove' someone supports you.

    So I'm going to reiterate what I said, in relation to what you said.

    You stated that the Anglos where 'the greatest oppressors of other cultures in world history'.

    You have come back with India, China and Africa. Well China still has it's culture completely intact...and I believe that any Chinese person would agree with that. India still has it's own culture, religion and freedom. In fact the British stopped muslim raiders from the north enslaving the Hindu population. Evil British stopping slavery! How dare they!

    As for Africa you do realise that Africa is a continent, don't you? It's not a country. And there were many European countries involved in Africa, not just the British. Yet the majority of African countries that where part of the British Empire are generally far better off than those that where part of other Empires. Yes Tobias, there were other Empires both before the British Empire and since.

    And show me where the indigenous people of Argentina have the same rights as you squatters from Europe. They obviously don't, and the UN have stated that. The UN an independent body has stated that.

    Free healthcare? In the areas of the country where they are forced to live...yes Tobias forced to live because you stole all their land and continue to steal what little is left... access to your free healthcare is practically non-existent, or they have to travel many miles to access it, which most of them can't afford.

    As for you claiming that the British controlled the salt supply in India, and? So? In Argentina you control the FOOD supply to the indigenous people, which is why there have been cases of them STARVING to death. You make claims about the British from hundreds of years ago but ignore what is happening today in Argentina.

    You're pathetic.

    May 25th, 2016 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @11

    Can you actually provide any PROOF of the statements you, and others, made @11 about Aregentina?

    There have been plenty of people trying to prove that Argentina caused a genocide but nobody was able to proof it. You might be the first. I'm anxiuosly awaiting for your answer.

    May 25th, 2016 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    @12 pgerman

    What about this:
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    or
    http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/four-child-malnutrition-deaths-in-northern-argentina-another-1.800-in-danger

    Is that enough for you pgerman?

    And are you going to fall on your usual mantra of the indigenous people not being from Argentina so it doesn't count if you murder them and abuse them?

    May 25th, 2016 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Hay tá, pgerman. Here is some of the material being used in contemporary education in Argentine universities:

    “Del silencio al ruido en la Historia. - Prácticas genocidas y Pueblos Originarios en Argentina”

    Léalo y llore.

    http://www.mapaeducativo.edu.ar/pueblos_indigenas/images/2_%20silencio_ruido.pdf

    May 26th, 2016 - 01:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @13 LEPRecon

    I had asked you for proof of a genocide bot articles from the media. Can you condemn a Government or a Country with articles? In addition, you were quite clear making reference about the pasy and not the current situation of the descendants of native peoples. Their situation is not worse than the situation of prro people in Argentina (or in Chile). So NO PROOF at all? What a pitty.

    @14 Marti Llazo

    Are you going to recommend me readings about argentine history? Do you want to discuss with me about argentine history? You bet not. Unless you want to make a fool. If you want to know something about argentine history of indinegous people I can recommend you several serious books:

    “Soy Roca” from Felix Luna
    “Excursion a los indios ranqueles” from Lucio V. Mansilla
    “El Ultimo confin de la Tierra” from Thomas Bridges
    “La lanza rota” from Dionisio Schoo Lastra
    “Indios, frontera y seguridad interior” from Alvaro Barros
    “Calvario y Muerte” from Nestor Golpe...

    These are some of them..it's the beginning of a thrilling time of argentine history. Start with these...I'll suggest you additional ones once you finish them.

    So NO PROFF at all of a argentine genocide...ok, don't worry..keep on trying !!

    May 26th, 2016 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @15 -- I have a first edition of the Bridges book, have been to Harberton, and I know the surviving Goodalls. Of your list, only the Bridges book is anywhere close to reliable. I have also translated original material on the Yaganes for publication in English by one of the regional universities, as well as translations of first-person indigenous accounts for commercial publication. So yes, I know a great deal about the relevant history of Argentine genocide in Tierra del Fuego.

    Pgerman must be very argento to continue to deny the participation of Argentine governments in a very large number of extensive genocides.

    May 26th, 2016 - 03:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro

    Indeed, after what his tribe of bipedal locusts did to Paraguay, and are still doing to Tupi speakers in the north, one might well wish that the Mosaic plague that overtook Sarmiento and Mitre will someday overtake him and his. ;)

    http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsamu9towd.gif

    May 26th, 2016 - 04:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • brasherboot

    Argentines are colonialists

    May 26th, 2016 - 04:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • zathras

    Given there were no people on the Falklands when it was discovered.

    People then settled the Falklands and decided to stay.

    Presumably then a gneration or two later those people born to the settlers could consider themselves indigenous.

    Given many in the Falklands can trace their settled ancestors back as far as 9 generations.

    That must make an awful lot of the Falklands population in effect Indigenous.

    May 26th, 2016 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @16 Marti Llazo

    I'm not asking you about myself. I have asked both, LEPRecon and you, for proof and evidence of a genocide. No matter that, in the first times of Argentina as an independant country there were no concept of “genocide”, (defined by the UN in the modern era post WWII) nobody could prove that there was a genocide against the native people. Not even the most fascist “revisionistas” historians.

    This era, the first years of Nicolas Avellaneda and JA Roca are among my favorites in argentine history. SO, if you want to know a little, just a little about argentine history you must start reading the books I mentioned. Let's talk once you finished them

    PROOF ...all I asked was PROOF !!!...

    May 26th, 2016 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • darragh

    @20

    ”there were no concept of “genocide”, (defined by the UN in the modern era post WWII)”

    So what you are saying is that what happened to the Jewish people (and others) DURING WWII was not genocide....hmmm interesting concept.

    May 26th, 2016 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @21

    I'm not saying that. You wrote this. I take responsability only of my words.

    But I don't make the mistake of judging countries and Empires of actions that at old times were acceptable but now would be considered a crimes.

    How wouyld you consider the two Buenos Aires British invasions?

    Anyway, if you like to try prove that the was a argentine genocide against the native people I also suggest you to read the above mentioned books. Let's talk later.

    May 26th, 2016 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • darragh

    @22

    No I'm sorry you did write it and I quote in full - ”No matter that, in the first times of Argentina as an independant country there were no concept of “genocide”, (defined by the UN in the modern era post WWII)”

    If there was no concept of genocide before the end of WWII then you are saying ipso facto that what happened to the Jewish people was outside the concept of genocide - you cannot deny it that's what you wrote.

    The invasions of Buenos Aires that took place between 1806 and 1807, were part of the Napoleonic Wars, when Spain was an ally of France and were clearly not an attempt at genocide.

    Nor am I going to attempt to prove Argentine genocide against the indigenous peoples as to a certain extent I agree with you that this was not an attempt at genocide. It was however symptomatic of a society (and I'm not saying this only applied to Argentina or whatever it was called then) that had no regard for the lives, chattels and lands of an indigenous people.

    What I will do however is quote your hero General Roca

    “Our self-respect as a virile people obliges us to put down as soon as possible, by reason or by force, this handful of savages who destroy our wealth and prevent us from definitely occupying, in the name of law, progress and our own security, the richest and most fertile lands of the Republic.

    — Julio Argentino Roca,

    Not proof of genocide I agree but it certainly indicates his mind set.

    Kind regards

    May 26th, 2016 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • imoyaro

    @22
    There is no “talking” with genocidal criminals, kurepi, only the machete... ;)

    i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/imoyaro/chopperlaff_zpsamu9towd.gif

    May 26th, 2016 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @23

    People like JA Roca thought, spoke and wrote as was right, correct and acceptable in his time. More than 100 years now.

    There are terrible sentences, worse than the one you mentioned, written by Belgrano, Sarmiento, JM de Rosas, for instance.

    If you want to judge an historical character you must take into account not only his/her time but also his/her oponents and the whole circumstances that surrounded him.

    Otherwise, nobody can accept nowadays the massive bombing over German territory (causing the destruction of entire cities and killing civilians) during WW II. But at that time, attacking civil targets were accetable. Nowadays it is not acceptable.

    JA Roca just wanted to take control of a territory of the same size of the current one but with two million people. Part of the Argentine Army had, at that time, plenty of indigenous people (at a proportion of 1/3 of it). And some tribes, leaded by a chilean chiefs by the name of Calfucura, made a political alliance with the name of Confederacion Ranquelina, and officially declare the war to Argentina. This document is currently in the Archivo Nacional in Buenos Aires. So Nicolas Avellaneda and JA Roca, as presidents, had little chances of not fighting against them.

    I would like to invite you to read “Soy Roca” written by Felix Luna too.

    May 26th, 2016 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    “¿Lograremos exterminar los indios? Por los salvajes de América siento una invencible repugnancia sin poderlo remediar”
    -----Domingo Faustino Sarmiento

    “ La conquista del desierto, ese complejo proceso histórico que atravesó la Argentina en el siglo XIX, sigue generando controversias. Desde el mismo nombre, hablar de desierto hace pensar en un territorio vacío que fue ocupado por el ejército de Juan Manuel de Rosas desde 1833 en adelante. Sin embargo, una gran cantidad de estudios historiográficos demuestran hoy que quienes forjaron el Estado nacional, con Julio Argentino Roca como su máximo exponente, no sentaron las bases argentinas sobre tierras vírgenes, sino sobre sangre indígena.”

    http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/conquista-desierto-guerra-desigual_0_1461454130.html

    More readings for you

    Perez, Pilar: “Historia y silencio: la Conquista del Desierto como genocidio no-narrado”

    And the Argentine government position acknowledging on the subject of the genocides

    Roca:

    ”A mi juicio el mejor sistema de concluir con los indios, ya sea extinguiéndolos o arrojándolos al otro lado del río Negro, es el de la guerra ofensiva. Es necesario (...) ir directamente a buscar al indio en su guarida, para someterlo o expulsarlo” (Mensaje y Proyecto presentado por el general Roca al Congreso de la Nación el 14 de Agosto de 1878):

    http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/conquista-desierto-guerra-desigual_0_1461454130.html

    May 26th, 2016 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @26

    Are you trying to move me? Are you trying to convince me witht sentences ,and historical facts, studied in detail? You are taking them completely out of context.

    Take history seriously instead of believing websites of dubious objectivity.

    Do you want to discuss with me about argentine history? You will make a fool.

    If you want to know something about argentine history of indinegous people and, the war against the new country, I would recommend you several serious books again:

    “Soy Roca” from Felix Luna
    “Excursion a los indios ranqueles” from Lucio V. Mansilla
    “El Ultimo confin de la Tierra” from Thomas Bridges
    “La lanza rota” from Dionisio Schoo Lastra
    “Indios, frontera y seguridad interior” from Alvaro Barros
    “Calvario y Muerte” from Nestor Golpe...

    These are some of them..it's the beginning of a thrilling time of argentine history. Start with them. I'll suggest you additional ones once finished them.

    May 26th, 2016 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Very convenient for Islanders to delve on past injustices--and indeed, genocide--committed by our Argentine ancestors against our First Peoples, as a way of feeling better for occupying Islas Malvinas.
    However, the issue at hand is not what was done one or two centuries ago, but what's done today--and tomorrow--to end discrimination against the few representatives of our original peoples who are still surviving.
    We can see how complacent some contemporary people are with past injustices.
    In the above post #25, pgerman still tries to rationalize the genocide:
    ”...some tribes...officially declare (d) the war to Argentina...so Nicolas Avellaneda and JA Roca, as presidents, had little chances of not fighting against them.”
    Big B.S. The genocidal Campaña del Desierto's goal was the appropriation of land to distribute it among Argentina's wealthiest families.
    As noted by historian Osvaldo Bayer, between 1876 y 1903 over 40 million hectares were given to 1,843 landowners.
    The Luro family got 200,000 hectares, and the Martínez de Hoz family 2.5 million hectares. (That Martinez de Hoz was the great grandfather of Alfredo, well remembered as economy minister for the Videla dictatorship).
    This created extremely large estates (latifundio) that allowed for the persistence of semi-feudal practices and explains the extreme backwardness of the Argentine oligarchy.
    In contrast, more economically efficient parcels created in the U.S. and Canada facilitated capitalist forms of development in the countryside.

    May 26th, 2016 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @28

    Osvaldo Bayer is an anarchist argentine-german writter (who lives in Germany) that promotes the the withdrawal of the Argentine Nation from Patagonia to allow the cracion of a Mapuches Nation (as if the Mapuche had been from the east of the Andes....). But wait !!!...dont' be happy...He also promotes that the Chilean State do exactly the same with the South of its territory. Osvaldo Bayer's position is not my interpretation but his explicit position.

    Enrique ¿Can you proof that there was a genocide? I would enjoy reading your “proof” about this topic. Please, don't add links from the web as Marti Llazo made as if they were proof.

    May 26th, 2016 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    For those who might not be able to follow the material in Spanish concerning the history of Argentine genocides -- and there were many -- a short summary in English with references is provided on our old friend wikipedia on one aspect

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert

    For angloparlantes who might have access, more good reading on Argentine genocide is here: “ The genocide of indigenous peoples in the formation of the Argentine Nation-State” by Trinchero.

    Other material (from the Argentine National Scientific and Technical Research Council) , in translation:

    ‘‘Not a single Indian crosses the Pampas where many tribes used to live.’’ With
    these words General Julio A. Roca, by then president of Argentina, highlighted
    genocide as one of his administration’s achievements. As on other occasions, the republic’s policies toward Indigenous peoples showed a violent and exterminatory side, related to the aim of emptying strategic territories and replacing the Native population with a European one. Although the national heroes of the War of Independence at the beginning of the nineteenth century had referred to Indigenous peoples as ‘‘brothers’’ or ‘‘fellow citizens,’’ these feelings of unity and empathy began to turn, by the late nineteenth century, into expressions of condemnation for their genealogical imperfection and effective policies of land expropriation. Some of the most important theorists of the republic expressed their desire to eliminate the Native population. The ‘‘Conquest of the Desert’’ (Pampa and Patagonia, 1878– 1885) and ‘‘Campaigns to the Green Desert’’ (Chaco, 1884–1917) extended through time as a permanent state of war of varying intensity. During these campaigns, the
    killing of Indigenous people on the ‘‘battlefield’’ or their extermination was a constant possibility as a consequence of the ‘‘state of exception’’ that enabled the armed forces to execute prisoners and families in the name of the ‘‘rights of civilization.’’

    May 26th, 2016 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @30

    You are so ignorant as arrogant.

    JA Roca was not the president of Argentina when the Conquest of the Desert started. Nicolas Avellaneda was the president at taht time and the militar campaign was authorized, organized and afforded with a law passed in the Congress of Argentina. Why are you mentioning JA Roca?

    May 27th, 2016 - 02:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    Julio Argentino Roca, “ el conquistador del desierto” y presidente de Argentistan 1880-1886 y 1898-1904.

    -----
    “ .....The Conquest of the Desert was a military campaign directed mainly by General Julio Argentino Roca in the 1870s with the intent to establish Argentine dominance over Patagonia, which was inhabited by indigenous peoples. Argentine troops killed more than a thousand Indians and displaced over 15,000 more from their traditional lands. Historian Jens Andermann has noted that contemporary sources on the campaign indicate that the Conquest was intended by the Argentine government to exterminate the indigenous tribes, an example of genocide. First-hand accounts stated that Argentine troops killed prisoners and committed ”mass executions“. The 15,000 Indians taken captive 'became servants or prisoners and were prevented from having children' .....”

    May 27th, 2016 - 04:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • McGregor

    @31 Marti is neither ignorant or arrogant..........In my view highly eloquent, certainly sufficient to knock great big holes in your attempted whitewash of Argentinian history.

    As if that were not enough, your own countryman Enrique, is sufficiently. mature and honest to acknowledge the genocides. The question is why aren't you ?

    In Germany there are those who still deny the holocaust claiming there is no proof. They claim the contemporary accounts were forged, archived footage forged etc etc and nothing anyone could say or do would pursuade them otherwise. These people are only deluding themselves as indeed are you.

    Nobody blames you for what happened before you were born. What you can be blamed for however, is refusing to accept that what happened was totally wrong and unjustifiable. Enrique is also totally correct in saying that the important thing is what happens today and tomorrow............

    May 27th, 2016 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • CapiTrollism_is_back!!

    It never sees it to amaze me how the English can keep a straight face when calling every other nation out on denial of past historical crimes. They have basically rewritten history in their books, and keep feeding that garbage to their children. Most Brittos do not even acknowledge their role in the slave trade, in the spreading of disease, and in the cultural oppression of millions and millions. That's not even touching all the genocides in India, North America, South Africa, Middle East, Australia, Ireland, and on and on and on.

    Marti Llazo is a loon, none other than the loon formerly known as Chichureo, who admitted having been stiffed by some Argie broad (I'm sure there is no way the woman was even half-decent looking), and ever since then he has been on a mission of righteous vengeance.

    May 27th, 2016 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @32 & 33

    The Law of the Desert Campaign sent to Congress by President Nicolas Avellaneda, voted by Congress with absolute unanimity, was Law No. 947 (05.10.1878).

    At that time Nicolas Avellaneda was the president of Argentina and he ruled the Country from October 12th of 1874 until October 12th of 1880..

    During his presidency he had two Defense Ministers: Adolfo Alsina who unexpectedly passed away and had to be replaced by Julio Argentino Roca who was not even a militar that took decisions on the battlefield (he had a political responsibility).

    I told Marti LLazo... you know nothing about argentine history..

    May 27th, 2016 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #34
    Unfortunately , it seems we did not do a proper job in ARGENTINA as you seem to have survived our genocidal ethnic cleansing and spreading of the malarial parasite, zika virus, dengue fever, chagas fever, all of which every one knows are endemic in the UK.
    I apologise , on behalf of the UK, for all the world's ills, which as a brilliant but undervalued scholar, you have listed time and time again. Maybe one day, we can emulate that paragon of virtue called ARGENTINA, whose unblemished history and philanthropy to mankind are a beacon to us all. Who are also blameless in any actions against indigenous peoples.
    I would take exception however to cultural suppression. You cannot blame the UK if thousands of Argentinians are willing to fork out large sums of money to see ageing UK pop stars. Even you, as a fair minded and unbiased observer,have to admit that these are voluntary acts by your countrymen and are not the result of coercion by any UK source.
    Your illuminating posts are eagerly awaited with more pithy gems of wisdom unknown to we poor uneducated Anglos. What would we do without you.
    I for one am wading my way through the latest copy of Janes Fighting Ships, which I managed to buy for £100 instead of the retail price of £836 - friends in high places. I will have to see how your world class navy is progressing.

    May 27th, 2016 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @32 & 33

    Have you ever asked how could a Defense Minister be a genocidal but not be a genocidal the President of the Nation who ordered the action? How it may not be genocidal the chief of the army that fulfilled the militar action? How is it possible that the members of the chambers of Congress that passed the law were not genocidals?

    You know too little about Argentina's history to discuss, in public, without reading or previous study. Don't make the fool....

    May 27th, 2016 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @37 So, pgerman, what you are saying is that this particular genocide was supported by the Argentine congress, the Argentine president and cabinet, and the Argentine military. As well as being supported by the Argentine populace.

    Your argument of denial of the genocide has gone from pretending that it didn't exist, to confirming that it existed and pointing fingers at the various levels of Argentine government and society that supported the genocide.

    Now let's look at how the military benefited from the genocides, in this case the conquista del “desierto”

    “ .....But the [Argentine] military corporation’s power expansion process not only increased its own budget so it could develop and dominate; it also raised its members’ expectation of assets increases. Appropriated territory became war plunder. The “campaigns to the desert” also enriched the military corporation itself, since the state rewarded officers, from frontier and regiment commanders to reservists, with important territorial concessions.
    Land was allocated according to rank, as follows: Frontier Commander, 8000
    has., Regiment Commander, 5000 has., Sergeant Major, 4000 has., Captains and Senior Aides-de-Camp, 2500 has., First and Second Lieutenants, 2000 has., other officers, 1500 has. Land thus served to motivate army members to implement military campaigns. ...”

    May 27th, 2016 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @38

    I have never mentioned anything about the distribution of the land of a country that had the same surface as currently but only 2 million people of inhabitants. There were plenty of vacant lands.

    Yes. those who took part of the militar campaign were partially paid with land. What's wrong with that? So, Enrique Massot's post about half of a dozen of families that ended being the owners of the land seems to be wrong after all....

    In addition, this distribution, whether it was correct or not, is not related at all with a genocide. In any genocide (see the definition of “genocide” of the UN) you have (among others) mass killings and as a result of these killings you have mass graves. In the Armenian Genocide, in the Jew Genocide, etc, you have all the proofs and the mass graves..Where are the mass graves of the native argentine people? Where are the mass graves?

    Marti Llazo..you are going from surprise to surprise...simply because you know nothing about argentine history.

    You now accept that JA Roca was not the evil person you read in shalow web sites with no historical background.....please, don't make the fool.

    May 27th, 2016 - 04:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    #29 pgerman
    Pgerman makes a childish attempt to diminish prominent historian, writer and journalist Osvaldo Bayer based on inaccurate information.
    Bayer does not live in Germany but in Buenos Aires. He lived in Berlin during his exile in the 1970s.
    Among other books, Bayer wrote La Patagonia Rebelde, an account of a strike of Patagonian rural workers, many of them English, and the summary execution of 1,500 of them by the Argentine army, in one of the most shameful episodes in the country's history.
    Bayer wanted to unite both Argentine and Chilean Patagonias, as a first step towards a Latin American Common Market.

    Asking for “proof” that the Conquest of the Desert was an act of genocide is another example of denial.
    Genocide is the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group.
    The ways in which the Argentine government killed, uprooted, starved and submitted to slavery our First Peoples was outright genocide--there is no way around it.
    The first goal was, in the first place, to appropriate the land, as Marti shows in #38.
    There is more, however. Argentine politicians and dominant classes have long suffered from an acute inferiority complex that is root of many of our country's problems, still remains, and can be resumed as:
    1. All good people come from Europe or the U.S.--light skinned, blond, blue eyes, disciplined, hard worker, etc.
    2. The ultimate bad are Criollos, Gauchos, Metis, Indians, Blacks, Cabecita Negra--any brown-skinned who “are genetically predisposed to laziness, indiscipline, rebellion” etc.
    Domingo F. Sarmiento wanted to eradicate gauchos and replace them with European immigrants.
    “Don't try to spare gauchos' blood,” wrote Sarmiento to Bartolome Mitre in 1861. ”(Their blood) is the only thing this Creole populace, uncivil, barbarian and rude has in common with human beings.”

    May 27th, 2016 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #39
    If I may interject in what appears to be heated discussion.
    Comparing the genocide inflicted on Armenia and the Jewish population of Europe is a facile argument. In both cases they were largely town dwellers who lived and worked for generations in the same place. They were easy pickings for the Turks and Nazis to collect and murder.
    In the case of Patagonia the indigenous population were small tribes of hunter gatherers. They could be slaughtered where found and left for the wild beasts to dispose of...no need to bury. After all, they were not Christians so who cared ?
    This type of murder is also considered under genocide.

    May 27th, 2016 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Don't those two kids look like Cameron and Osborne as kids.

    just a thought.

    May 27th, 2016 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    #41 Clyde15
    A sensible comment, Clyde. Human beings have resorted to all sorts of rationalization to justify mass murder or outright genocide against different groups of people.
    Race, ethnic origin, skin colour, religion, political affiliation, all has been used as a valid reason to exterminate the “other.”
    This has degraded humans to levels below any other living thing on Earth.
    Here's hope that increased awareness and the fact that the world is becoming a large village will allow us to get beyond sterile confrontation and more collaboration. That's the only way to pay real respect to all the victims of senseless hatred and violence.

    May 27th, 2016 - 07:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • pgerman

    @ 40 Enrique Massot

    It is funny the way you put toghether historical events with no relationship at all. The killing described in the novel “Patagonia Revelde” happened decades after Nicolas Avellaneda presidency and even JA Roca last presidency. In fact Irigoyen, a true democrat, from the UCR was president. There has been plenty of discussions about his responsability in the event. So Osvaldo Bayer novel has no relation at all with Avellaneda. Roca o Sarmiento.

    Argentina, as the UK, has a violent past but racial issues have never been important. In fact 1/3 of the soldiers of the Argentine Army during the Desert Campaign were native people from “friend tribes” as they were called at that time. This is a proof that there was no racial persecution at all. So you cannot applied the first point of the genocide definition.

    The famous “malones” that were tribal attacks with the destruction of cities, the killings of men and the reduction to slavery of women and kids are historical events.

    In fact, you either lie or you don't have the information, but Osvaldo Bayer lives in Germany with his relatives (all half argentine and half german) most of the time.

    As you accept following Bayer ideas will end in the loss of land and the division of two countries: Argentina and Chile. By the way don't forget that the territory claimed by Mapuche people includes the F Islands...don't ask me why.
    @41 Clyde15

    You need to proof any allegations against countries and governments. So, no matter how much you twist things, there are no mass graves of killings commited against the native people during the Desert Campaign. This means that there were no genocide at all.

    May 27th, 2016 - 08:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    @44 “ By the way don't forget that the territory claimed by Mapuche people includes the F Islands...don't ask me why. ”

    No sillier than an Argentine claim to the Falkland Islands.

    May 27th, 2016 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #45
    You have not understood my post.
    I repeat, absence of mass graves does NOT mean that genocide has not been committed.
    Genocide...definition. ”the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.
    Cases of Genocide
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    Darfur, Sudan
    Iraq
    Rwanda
    In modern times we have had videos of groups of people being murdered.
    Reporters in Rwanda have seen hundred of decomposing bodies lying around villages, in Bosnia, pictures of families burned alive in their houses. Burials did not take place until later.
    So your comment that there must be mass graves before it can be classed as genocide is a false assumption.

    May 28th, 2016 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LukeDig

    When is the UN going to address the crimenes against humanity that NATO has committed, and the english have committed through history? http://atlantablackstar.com/2016/01/25/poll-44-of-british-are-still-proud-of-uks-history-which-includes-genocide-slavery-and-massacres-of-people-of-color/

    When are the english going to repair all the damage they´ve done? Once they start, we can start too, no problem!

    May 28th, 2016 - 11:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #47
    OK,shall we get them to investigate the historical crimes by the Spanish....the rape of S.America, central America and the southern areas of N.America.
    How about the Mongols in Asia and the Roman Empire, Stalin's policies of murdering whole communities. The list is endless.
    However from your twisted viewpoint the British are the only country who have
    committed heinous crimes against the world. You are not prejudiced are you !
    You must be Trolling day and night to find the Atalanta Black Star, who , of course would find the information to suit their cause.
    In the case of black Americans or those from the Caribbean, how many would like to go back and live in the countries of their ancestry. They are much better off where they are AND the current last few generations were NOT brought over as slaves.

    May 29th, 2016 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    When are the english going to repair all the damage they´ve done

    you do speak rubbish,
    the English government has not existed for over 300 years, get ya facts right.

    May 29th, 2016 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    #47
    So.you disagree with pgerman. He seems to infer that Argentina has never committed any crimes. You say... we can start too, no problem!

    May 29th, 2016 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Martin Woodhead

    Well we did give back most of the empire eventually. Only bit we havnt is Gib and the Spanish claiming to be oppressed while holding onto slices of morroco seems a bit meh honestly.
    Argentina is a country of colonizers and racism and brutality and genocide are part of the package denying that is being dishonest. UK took a 1/3 of the planet and monstered a lot of the rest see china etc etc. The Falklands dont want to be ruled by argentina and as your too weak too take them by force too poor to bribe them and too stupid to be an attractive option tough.

    May 30th, 2016 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • McGregor

    @ 47

    British did not invent slavery or empire , your ancestors (Romans) and Thinks ancestors (Vikings) took slaves from these Islands long long before we started.

    Further, in 1807 an act of parliament abolished the trade from the British point of view. The Royal Navy spent the next 60 years intrcepting slavers from other nations too.

    When we ceased trading in slaves who stepped straight into the vacum, Spain, Portugal & France !

    Spain only had to get involved in African slave trading for Argentina because it had killed so many South American Indians slaves there were too few left to do the work.

    Just because you changed your name doesn't absolve you of the blame - Spains shame is Argentina's shame also wouldn't you say.

    May 30th, 2016 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    #44 pgerman
    “...there are no mass graves of killings commited against the native people during the Desert Campaign. This means that there were no genocide at all.”

    I swear, I did not force pgerman to write the above statement. He did it all by himself!

    May 30th, 2016 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • LEPRecon

    At various times in the past few years pgerman has come up with numerous excuses as to why Argentina has no blame whatsoever in the genocide of indigenous peoples.

    Here are a few:

    - They attacked the 'peaceful' Argentine/Spanish/European colonisers...so they deserved it!
    - The 'peaceful' Argentine/Spanish/European colonisers only killed a few thousand...so it isn't classed as genocide (even though when your population is only a few thousand strong it does).
    - The 'indigenous' peoples weren't from Argentina...they were from Chile which makes killing them okay.

    Of course his 'no mass graves' is a new one and quite bizarre.

    In the past I've shown him what the actual definition of 'genocide' is, and he still seems to be completely unaware of the meaning.

    So for you, pgerman, here is the DEFINITION of what constitutes genocide...nowhere on it does it state that there has to be mass graves!
    The International Convention of the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide on December 9, 1948 set the United Nations definition of genocide:

    ”General Assembly Resolution 260A (III) Article 2
    In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    (a) Killing members of the group; (Argentina did this)
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (Argentina continues to do this)
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (Argentina continues to do this)
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

    Yup no mention of there having to be MASS GRAVES for it to be considered genocide.

    pgerman you FAIL once again.

    May 30th, 2016 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Marti Llazo

    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

    It was not so long ago that Argentistan was doing this one as well.

    May 31st, 2016 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0

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