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Scottish government plans second independence referendum in 2018/19

Tuesday, March 14th 2017 - 06:36 UTC
Full article 141 comments

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed she will ask for permission to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence, and the vote would be held between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of the following year. That would coincide with the expected conclusion of the UK's Brexit negotiations. Read full article

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  • Think

    Geee...
    Brexit...
    IndyRef2...
    Éire Aontaithe...
    Bursting Mississippi Bubble in the South Atlantic...
    Hard times ahead for the last remnants of Engrish Colonialism...
    I'm luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuving it...!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse -6
  • DemonTree

    Go to hell, Think. I don't wish for your country to tear itself apart.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse -5
  • James Marshall

    ....Good job the people/population/inhabitants of the Falkland Islanders have a right to 'self determination' too then Think. If all goes 'tits up' they can decided to be with whoever they want.

    But one thing is for sure, tomorrow the sun will rise, life will go on and there won't be an Argentine flag flying over Stanley......

    And you will still be wasting your time posting vitriolic, bitter and hateful posts.

    Carry one sir, you are doing a fine job.

    PS. Did you manage to find anything that backed up your statement that the Islanders are not a 'people' It's just I spent all of five minutes finding at least ten examples of where the C24 have used the word 'Population' (just in one document) to refer to the people/inhabitants of NSGT's.
    As you went very silent on the issue, I was worried that you may have lost your internet connection or were unable to post your findings. Because I know, that if you could back up your statement you would, other wise that would make you a uneducated liar, fake and fraud...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...
    You may not...: ”Wish for (my) country to tear itself apart”...lad...
    But you certainly approve of your country (Uk) tearing the territorial integrity of mine (RA)...

    You Engrish Colonists did the proper thing once..., retiring from the Australian Antarctic Territory and subantarctic Islands..., respecting the territorial integrity of OZ...

    You Engrish Colonists did the proper thing twice..., retiring from the New Zealand Antarctic Territory and Subantarctic Islands..., leaving them to their proper owners...

    Why don't you Engrish Colonists do the proper thing thrice and retire from the Chilean and Argentinean Antarctic Territories and Subantarctic Islands..., respecting the Shilean and Argie territorial integrity...?

    Have a nice tuesday...
    El Think...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • ElaineB

    @ DT

    Pay him no attention. He is a bitter old man whose wives (three or four - I lost count) all left him because they couldn't stand him.

    The majority of Scots do not want independence. This is a fame-whore action by Sturgeon to grab a little limelight. The EU referendum was on the cards when the Scottish referendum took place. Nothing has changed.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • golfcronie

    I think that Mrs May ought to say to the Scottish National Party ” you do your sums and if and that is a big IF you can make a go of it on your own then go ahead and have a referendum. Sturgeon has since the age 15 been actively campaigning for an independent Scotland.All she wants is her name in history as the one person that fucked Scotland financially.Nicola you can't nitpick what YOU want.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    Antarctica isn't part of any country and never has been, it's a completely separate, uninhabited continent. It would be more like Argentina losing all of Patagonia.

    Anyway, if it was up to me Antarctica would belong to everyone or no one, and preferably the latter.

    @EB
    Three or four?! I've always wondered why people who have been divorced twice get married again. Triumph of hope over experience?

    And that majority is looking pretty slim these days. People said Britain would never vote to leave the EU, and the US would never elect Trump, and yet here we are.

    @golfcronie
    Why should the SNP have to do their sums? The campaigners for Brexit didn't bother and the numbers they did give turned out to be all lies (an extra £350m for the NHS, yeah right).

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Think

    Dodging (not very elegantly) my clear, direct and unconvenient question Mr. DemonTree...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    About the Australian and New Zealand Antarctic Territories? I don't know anything about them so I can't answer, but it sounds like a rather different situation to that with Argentina.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Think

    O'Really...
    Why...?

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • HansNiesund

    @Think

    It's really perfectly simple. We voluntarily ceded part of our Antarctic claim to Oz and NZ and we would easily do the same for AR. That still doesn't mean your claims to Antarctica and the sub-Antarctic islands are well founded. They remain entirely bogus, and are indeed even more comically ill-founded than your claim to the Falklands. See, for example, http://www.irizar.org/819puglisi-georgias.pdf

    PS: Being the only country ever to have opened fire in Antarctica, and on unarmed civilians to boot, doesn't entitle you to anything either.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:19 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Voice

    I don't think it is wise at this moment in time to have all this division...Irish Unification and Inderef2...
    I didn't vote for Brexit, but I think the UK should not be put at a disadvantage in the up and coming negotiations with the EU, the EU will be exploiting any weaknesses to their advantage...
    Let's see what kind of deal we can get playing the strongest hand possible and if folk are not happy a couple of years on then put it to the people...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • The Voice

    For once I agree with my namesake. It's only when negotiations are complete that folk can judge whether it's to their nations advantage to leave the UK. The SNP has one simple aim and don't represent the majority of Scots.

    As for the Think turnip he has one simple aim too, directed by Brook Street.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Clyde15

    Déjà vécu. Here we go again !

    May and Sturgeon seem to be in a power struggle. I can't believe a word either of them speak.

    As for Think ? Who gives a toss what he says.....it's like a record stuck in a groove.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. Voice...

    I “Think” that's precIsely the reason why that bonnie ging lass is calling that IndyRef2... NOW!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Voice

    Mr. Think
    You may be right...but that's Nationalists for you...Freeeedom...at any cost...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    I'll look it up later if I get time, but it's still not remotely comparable to the UK breaking up.

    Voice is right, it would be far more sensible to wait until a few years after Brexit and see what kind of deal we get and how things are going.

    And apart from screwing up the Brexit negotiations, the division caused by another indyref will be mostly in Scotland. Suppose they vote out with a slim majority like with Brexit, it'll create another bunch of people like me who are angry about being dragged out of the Union against their will. Not a great start for an independent country.

    @Voice
    At a very high cost for all of us. Nationalism has a lot to answer for.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Think

    There'll always be a Scotland...
    And Scotland shall be freeeeeeee....
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Se7a-d_qGNc

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    Think, the thing is we don't mind if Scotland is 'free'. But Voicey does, he knows which side his bread is buttered... So do some of my Scotch pals with emigration plans already in place.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • darragh

    Memo to Ms Sturgeon - try reading The Monkey's Paw by W.W. Jacobs.....

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Think

    Memo to Mr. Darragh
    Éire Aontaithe..., you Irish rascal..., Éire Aontaithe...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 02:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • golfcronie

    DT Far easier to do the sums for Scotland as they would be dealing with Scottish matters and not dealing with 27 countries, think about it.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • darragh

    Memo to Mr Think - and a million or so NI Protestants/Unionists are just going to say “OK then” - somehow I don't think so..........

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @golfcronie
    There is still a lot of uncertainty about how independence would affect the Scottish economy, and they would be dealing with 27 countries if they joined the EU. But plenty of people did the sums for the UK and almost all of them decided we'd be worse off out of the Single Market. The Brexit campaign simply told people not to believe the experts, so evidently they could not come to any better conclusion themselves.

    I expect the SNP will do the same.

    @darragh
    It won't be Think suffering if the violence starts up again in NI. He'll be sitting safely on another continent, saying 'freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom'.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Pugol-H

    Worst possible time for the country to hold such a referendum, but Dear Nicola knows that very well.

    Don’t see how it really works for Scotland either.

    Entirely possible that even by then the outcome is not decided, or could even be extended, then will Scotland even know what it’s voting against.

    Teresa May will probably take the pragmatic approach, fine but in autumn 2019.

    There is no option for Scotland to stay in whatever happens.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    I have been trying to follow the time line on this.

    Scottish independence referendum held and we are told it is binding...Scotland wants to stay with the UK.
    We were told that it was the only way to stay in the EU.

    Brexit ref. By a small majority the UK votes to leave the EU. Scotland votes to stay in.
    Now we are told that we will be leaving the EU completely which contradicts what we were told previously.

    Sturgeon trying to get some form of deal to at least partly stay in. Spain says we will have to leave and apply to join....at the end of the queue .

    Brussels spokesman tonight on TV says Scotland would be able to join within a year as they meet all the criteria for membership.

    In the proposed.( by Sturgeon). ref.it is a means to remain part of the EU..HOWEVER, there were a good number of Scottish voters who wanted out of the EU. Will they vote for independence ? So the YES vote may be even less than last time.

    The last thing we want is an argument about Brexit details and a separate one on Scottish independence carrying on becoming bitterly divisive.

    Sort out the Brexit and then have your second bite at the cherry with a second referendum.

    So, the SNP will be beating the drum in Holyrood and letting day to day matters in governing Scotland get shoved into the siding.

    No wonder I am sick of politicians who seem to do nothing but posture in their own self-importance.

    I think I will google confused.com for advice on what the hell is going on !

    Darragh
    I think the Irish situation is more worrying. There are enough bigoted nut-cases on both side to start serious trouble if they don't get their way.

    Think just likes stirring things for his own twisted amusement. He regards himself as an expert on Scottish history, culture and probably Ireland as well.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Voice

    Clyde

    Think of the Economics of choosing the EU over the UK...

    “Unionist wits ask the SNP why the party privileges access to the EU’s single market over Scotland’s access to the UK’s single market when that latter is four times greater and more important to Scotland than the former. Isn’t this, they say, daft? We must preserve tariff free trade for 15 per cent of our exports even if this means tariffs for 60 per cent!”

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Think

    Voice

    Think of the Economics of choosing Independence over the UK...

    Scotland coud be as rich as Norway...

    No kidding...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • EscoSesDoidao

    People need to read the Manifesto the SNP were elected on last year by the majority of Scots voters. It is very clear that another Independence referendum will be called in the event of Scotland being withdrawn from the EU against its wishes. Doesnt anyone on here know that? The Scottish Gov are more or less now obliged to do this, as WM has ignored them onany involvment in Brexit talks. By the way it's 50/50 right now for Scots wanting this coming referendum, not a majority against.
    Lets just see what happens folks......

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • The Voice

    There speaks an expert - oops I meant a prize Turnip!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • EscoSesDoidao

    Voice go look at Margaret Thatchers famous quote regarding personal attack, and it showing you have lost the political argument mate.

    Meanwhile I would urge people to take a few moments to read this, -

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/some-things-are-simple/#more-92648

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    I was referring to Think turnips post not yours. Suggest you read Voice's post and tell us it doesn't make sense. Personally I believe it's up to the people of Scotland to say what they want and I don't believe it's more referendums...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Think

    Meanwhile I would urge Scots to take a look 500 km to the west of Aberdeen...
    Juppppppppppppppppppppp....., Norway....
    Poorer than Scotland in the sixties...
    Look at it today...!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • The Voice

    Yes, Norway, climate change criminals where tomatoes cost $15 a pound and fish and chips and a beer costs $60. -40 degrees in the winter, clogged roads and grey miserable people. Great place!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • darragh

    Think

    500km to the West of Aberdeen???

    Wouldn't that put them in the North Atlantic - not much there 'laddie' and certainly nowhere near Norway....

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    Yes, take a look at Norway. Independent since 1905, but apparently it was still poorer than Scotland until the 60s. Got rich because of oil, which is running out and not making much money currently due to the low price, and also fishing, which it only has because it is NOT in the EU.

    @The Voice
    I thought Norway was pretty nice, and the people weren't miserable at all, but I agree the food and even more so the drink is heinously expensive.

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Think

    Fact...:
    Tomatoes in Norway cost today £ 3 a Kg...
    https://nettbutikk.meny.no/varer/frukt-gront/gronnsaker/tomater/tomat-2000406400006

    Educate yourself..., Turnip...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Voice

    Mr. Think
    I think the glory days of the North sea oil boom are well and truly in the past, the bulk of my finances are entwined in the economy of Scotland I have no wish to see them risked any further...
    You might want to take note of the 37,000 job cuts in the oil industry in two years in Norway...
    Fortunately they were able to invest their oil fortunes in the past...there is no hope of Scotland doing that now...
    http://norwaytoday.info/news/37000-job-cuts-two-years-oil-industry/

    EscoSesDoidao

    It is rather amusing that WingsoverScotland...is based in Bath England the guy doesn't even live in Scotland...
    About as relevant as Sean Connery's Nationalistic support...god save us from ex-pats with opinions...
    If you want an opinion on Independence...fcuking well live here...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • The Voice

    Think turnip, if you Think Norway is a great place why aren't you living there? After all you are a squatting implant! Norwegians I know come to London in the winter regularly for shopping entertainment and to escape the gloom. They are generally anglophiles. Some of them have also moved to the US to escape!

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Think

    Mr. Voice

    You always ruin the fun with your well argumented logical Thinking...

    However if the visionary EscoSesDoidao's and Think's from yesteryear had their way some 50 years ago..., Scotland would be as loaded as Norway and the Scots would be financially secured for the next 10 generations...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund#Largest_sovereign_wealth_funds

    The future belongs to the Brave... hearts... ;-)
    Freeeeeeeeeeedom...

    Mar 14th, 2017 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    And tomatoes are £2 a kg in the UK. I also found a bottle of Bulmers on that site for the equivalent of £5. Ouch. The beer was a little cheaper, but there's no discount for buying in bulk, so a 6 pack in Norway would get you a 12 pack in the UK. Norway really is a lot more expensive.

    Do you actually live in Scotland, EscoSesDoidao?

    All these expats and foreigners butting in to a decision that doesn't affect them is getting annoying. You don't have to live with the consequences.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 12:04 am - Link - Report abuse -5
  • The Voice

    Yes Think, dinosaurs lived in the past...

    Wallace got hung drawn and quartered...

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 12:07 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Skip

    How very EU Scotland has become. If at first the electorate doesn't give you the “correct” answer, you ask them again.

    And again.

    And again.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Voice

    DemonTree

    He doesn't...he's an ex-pat that visits occasionally, I seem to remember his family is in Brazil or somewhere like that...
    ...but he is originally from north of Aberdeen...Peterhead or Fraserburgh...

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Think

    Mr.DemonTree...

    Norway's food prices area significatively more expensive than UK food prices..., alright...
    But...
    Firstly... food spenditures represent less than a 10% of an average family budget in Norway or in the UK
    Peoples income is also ~ 50% higher in Norway..., lad...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Eurostat_family

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 12:49 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • AustrOllOpithecus

    I am finally tired out of this Brexit, Scoxit, and Norxit drama. Shit dude, these British 40 years being the drama queens of the EU, and now they got what they wanted and still causing drama??

    Whether the UK holds together or not is inconsequential to Argentina, at the end of the day.

    BUT... I would take serious offense to something if I were a true Scott (which apparently there are none in this website): I would take earnest umbrage to those around here who constantly tout the Falklands, a tiny community of 3000 at the end of the Earth really, next to no one, far from the populated economic centers, yet championed as this great example of a “nation” (beside the small print that says they are not a country)... And then will also state that Scotland, a nation of several million with significant actual resources, a labor force, a land border to a major economy like England, and close to an economic juggernaut like the EU's common Market and with rather easy access to North American markets... somehow are a bunch of cripples by comparison to the stoic Falklanders, and thus could never have their own nation, since it would be a total failure.

    I seriously mean this. I would be offended if the same person talked about the Falklands and Scotland so.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Voice
    Wonderful. Another nationalist expat who supports leaving a union but won't have to live with the consequences himself.

    @Think
    Isn't this the usual downside of having lots of a resource like oil? It pumps money into the economy and the price of everything increases / the currency strengthens, making other sectors uncompetitive. Norway has managed it way better than Venezuela, but it's not completely avoidable.

    @AustrOllOpithecus
    Has anyone said such a thing? Most people merely think that Scotland would be better off in the UK, but the Falklands would be better off out of Argentina. And I think even if they would be objectively much better off joining AR, the great majority would vote against it anyway due to all the bad feeling that has been stirred up.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Briton

    Scotland aint going nowhere.

    AustrOllOpithecus
    you aint a Scot, so its not your problem,
    and you still wont get the British Falkland's..

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:09 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Brit Bob

    Scotland's deficit is larger than that of Greece

    Nicola Sturgeon's pitch for independence looks set to centre on a desire for Scotland to remain in the European Union and the single market.

    However, the terms by which an independent Scotland could enter the EU are extremely uncertain. Countries face a lengthy application process in order to become members and
    Scotland may well be forced to adopt the euro as the price of membership.
    One of the target metrics the EU enforces on its members is for each state to aim for a budget deficit of no more than 3pc of GDP. Scotland is a terrible performer in this regard, spending £1,200 a head more than the rest of the UK and receiving £400 per head less.

    The Scottish government's latest annual estimate puts the country's deficit at £15bn or 9.5pc of GDP. This would be comfortably the worst score for any EU member state. (Telegraph, 14.3.17)

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Briton

    Remember this is the SNP, and not the majority of Scots who voted to stay in 2014,

    the poison dwarf , knows she has to have this before we pull out, as by then she has more chance of flying herself to the moon,

    so she really has no option but to risk it all,
    despite all the rhetoric Scotland will stay,

    as we will all find out by the end of 2018, if indeed she still calls it ?

    just my opinion of course.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:25 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    Troll
    If I am not Scottish/British what the hell am I ? I was born in Scotland, brought up in Glasgow, worked in Scotland apart from a sojourn in London and Birmingham in the early 1960's. I have lived in the town of Ayr for 46 years -look it up- you will find it is in Scotland
    .
    My antecedents were born in Scotland as far back as records go and probably fought with the Jacobites at Culloden.

    My wife's family tree goes back to the Border region of Scotland.

    As I type this I am listening to a digger ripping up the road to install fibre -optic cabling for Virgin media just as I signed up for fibre broadband with Talktalk..

    The time here is 10:45 on a usual cloudy day.

    As for any other poster here, I don't know if they are Scottish or live in Scotland.

    I am reasonably sure that Voice lives where he says but I don't know his nationality as he refuses to say - why, I don't know.

    A point, it's Scot NOT Scott.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:54 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @Clyde15
    He could be right that there is no true 'Scott' on this website. ;)

    Besides, he has a point in a way. IMO it would be better if the Falklands became independent, but the population is obviously far too small, even if Argentina wasn't an issue. Whereas Scotland clearly could survive on its own, the question is whether it (and rest of the UK) would be better off that way.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 01:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Briton

    the question is whether it (and rest of the UK) would be better off that way.

    Well I don't think so,
    we are better united,

    and as AustrOllOpithecus is just an anti brit who would love for us all to just disappear, then he is well ignored.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Pugol-H

    @DT
    Was that not one of the questions in the Brexit referendum, better off in or out?

    Yet despite the most dire economic predictions of the remainers, not to mention everyone else including US Pres Obama, the vote was out.

    The question is who people are going to believe, where emotion is often as powerful a factor as logic, reason, economic forecasts etc. etc.

    It is going to be interesting to see how the pro-anti independence and pro-anti EU sets work out in this, that is the one thing Dear Nicola would love to know but won’t until the day.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • LukeDig

    We salute the scots aa free people in hopes the scots be free after all they suffered in the past to be subjugated.
    Here in Argentina we remember fondly the irish heroes that helped us, knowing these were celts like you.
    Nemo me impune lacessit!

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    @Pugol-H
    Exactly. The Brexiters did no sums, but people believed what they wished to be true and voted out based on emotion. In the future we will all be poorer as a consequence.

    So why do you expect the Scottish referendum to be any different? It's a very parallel situation; all the sums show that Scotland would be poorer outside the UK, but most people either don't care or deny it because it's not what they want to believe. I think the voting will be based on emotion again, and right now Britain is not looking like very attractive proposition.

    @LukeDig
    The Scots weren't and aren't subjugated. Unlike Ireland Scotland was not conquered and agreed to enter the Union voluntarily. Scotland insisted on keeping it's own legal system, which it still has, and it's own state church, which is why the Church of England is not also the official church of Scotland.

    Since then they helped build the British Empire, traded in South America, and did every kind of job. Scots had the same rights as English people, and we've had several Scottish Prime Ministers (most recent one until 2010).

    It's interesting that you believe the Latin American countries should have united, but you don't see that it had the same benefits (and disadvantages) for England and Scotland. Do you think the Chileans would not be free if they had formed a union with Argentina?

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    No-one knows or knew absolutely what will happen after Brexit or after Scotland leaving the UK. But...Some of us remember those years before we joined the EEC and the time between then and when we joined the EU. We remember that time well and we know all the scare stories were largely rubbish as were some of the claims about the fees we pay being used on the NHS. But, in Scotland's case there is a lot more clear information available that clearly indicates it will cause a lot of financial damage to Scots. Scots are as free as any citizen in the UK.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Pugol-H

    @DT
    The Economic predictions of the remainers seem to have been the most inaccurate, so far??

    From what I have seen in the last 6 months, I am far from convinced that we are going to be poorer, even in the relatively short term.

    First off dear Nicola, has to decide whether it’s more attractive proposition to be independent and back in the EU, or independent and out of it.

    Then she doesn’t even know what if any EU/UK deal she is proposing to reject, in favour of independence.

    We must wait as see what in the end she is actually proposing, before we get the full comedy effect.

    I suspect she is going to struggle to convince many outside her core support, to follow Miss Mc Lemming over yet another cliff.

    Just my thoughts.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Briton

    suffered in the past to be subjugated.
    LukeDig
    you aint the brightest are you,

    Subjugated ?????

    Is this not what you want to do with the Falkland's.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @Pugol-H
    The continuing low value of the pound doesn't suggest much confidence among investors, although it seems to be good for the economy as a whole. Also the government has eased up on austerity, which was always a bad policy IMO, and that is helping too. But it's impossible to judge any of the predictions when we haven't even started the leaving process, and don't yet know what kind of deal we will get.

    Sturgeon has already decided she wants Scotland in the EU; she supported Remain during the referendum and it makes for a convenient point of difference between Scotland and England to campaign on.

    As for the EU deal, she can be pretty certain of the important thing: that we are leaving the Single Market. That was her 'red line' and she has to stick to it now. It does seem foolish to hold the referendum before knowing the options, but probably May will insist on it being after the negotiations are over.

    As for her struggling to convince others, she doesn't need to convince many; the numbers are close to 50-50 now. And she also has the advantage of being able to claim that a vote for independence will save Scotland from jumping off the hard Brexit cliff. There is NO safe, status quo option available to vote for this time.

    @The Voice
    If the UK was doing so well on it's own, we wouldn't have joined the EEC in the first place. You weren't able to name a single advantage the UK had back then when I asked you.

    And which scare stories were rubbish? The one that said we couldn't limit immigration and stay in the single market, like Boris was promising? Turned out to be right, didn't it? Or the one that it might lead to the breakup of the UK? It's coming true in front of our eyes!

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    You say...:
    “The Scots weren't and aren't subjugated. Unlike Ireland Scotland was not conquered and agreed to enter the Union voluntarily. Scotland insisted on keeping it's own legal system, which it still has, and it's own state church, which is why the Church of England is not also the official church of Scotland.”

    I say...:
    Rings as true as the following...:
    - The Tibetans weren't and aren't subjugated... Tibet was always very Chinese anyway and agreed to enter the Union voluntarily...Tibet insisted on keeping it's own legal system, which it still has, and it's own state church, which is why the Church of China is not also the official church of Tibet...

    Get me drift...?

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 09:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    Your drift seems to be comparing two things that are completely unalike.

    China most certainly did invade Tibet, there was nothing voluntary about it. Tibet doesn't have it's own legal system as far as I can discover, and it's religious leader was not allowed to remain in control, but lives in exile.

    Is there any actual point of similarity?

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Think

    Certainly...

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    Hmmm. China claims that Tibet has historically been an integral part of China, and does not believe in self determination for its people. That does seem rather familiar...

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 10:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    Think
    Yes we do get your drift ! Trying to compare the armed invasion of Tibet by China, their total subjugation and the death of 89,000 Tibetans during that act with the Union of Scotland and England is TOTAL NONSENSE.

    I have not noticed anyone being arrested and beaten up for waving the Saltire, singing Flower of Scotland or denigrating the English.
    So, Scotland is being held at gunpoint with threats of dire action if we step out of line ?

    Total garbage.

    As far as I can make out on this forum I am the only native Scot who actually lives here so I think my opinion is worth more than yours as I have lived quite contentedly in the Union for 75 years

    What makes you such an expert in Scottish affairs that you keep pronouncing on the subject as if you were uniquely qualified to do so.

    When I read any of your pronouncements, I think “Dover over Dover” and the pack of lies
    emanating from that and treat the rest of your postings in the same way.

    Stay in Chubut...if you actually live there...as Scotland does not need you.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 11:05 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Think

    Argie perspective...
    Chink perspective...
    Engrish perspective...
    McIan perspective...
    Campbell perspective...
    All depends on perspective..., lads...

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Dinosaur perspective - suits you sir....

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It's total nonsense from any perspective. Think just wants Scotland to leave in order to weaken Britain; I bet that like LukeDig, he's completely in favour of Latin American unity.

    Mar 15th, 2017 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Kanye

    Think/voice is all about promoting doubt, discontent, and division.

    If he gets any personal attention along the way, that's a double bonus for his ego

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 01:07 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    1) Makes a lot of sense from a Highlander perspective... Be it a Tibetan... or a Scot...
    2) Of course Think wants Scotland to leave in order to weaken England... Told you so meself...!
    3) You can bet your panties that I'm completely in favour of Latin American unity...!

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 04:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    Tinkle, its quite funny RGs are in favour of LA unity. It says a lot that no other countries there want anything to do with organisations that include Argyland! All you do with your neighbours is bicker.
    Scotland leaving will make England wealthier and stronger, but as Mrs May says the Union is 300 years old and precious.
    How are things in Brook Street this week?

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    Just want to make sure everyone reading knows why you make these clearly absurd comparisons and give your advice for 'freeeeedom'. It ain't because you really believe in them, and your concern for Scotland is all a fake, you want what's best for YOU, and damn anyone else, English and Scottish both.

    It's possible that LukeDig actually believes the ignorant bullshit he spouts, but you know better.

    And, you can blame everything you dislike about the UK on England as much as you like, but not one Scot on here supports your position on the Falklands, whether they are in favour of independence or not.

    @The Voice
    Please don't repeat bullshit you read in the tabloids. Scotland leaving will certainly not make England wealthier and stronger, it'll do far more damage to the rest of the UK than the UK has done to the EU by leaving it.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Clyde15

    The Voice
    It may well make England wealthier but not stronger. Other nations may well ask, what is wrong with England that a small nation wants to separate itself from it and make judgements not particularly in your favour.

    I have noticed that Scots are regarded more highly than the English when you go abroad.

    Colonialism is blamed on the English whereas we agree with our hosts and pretend it had nothing to do with us.!

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 06:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    1) And I want to make sure everyone reading this knows that everything I write in here are my sincere opinions...( unless clearly stated otherwise by a smiley or similar...)

    2) No Scot 《 IN HERE 》seems to share my anti Imperial and Colonial position on the Malvinas Issue..., that's correct...
    But more than enough of them do share my same anti Imperial and Colonial position on the Scottish Independence Issue... Funny...

    3) And outside of 《 HERE》 there is a lot of people with that luuuuvely rrrrolling rrrrrrs accent that share my anti Imperial and Colonial position on the Malvinas Issue....
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1w6V5QEVBI

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Clyde15
    Do you ever feel guilty for taking that easy way out? I think we'd all rather blame someone else, but not all of us are given the chance.

    @Think
    You have some very biased and wrong opinions then, which are clearly self-serving.

    And it's not the same position at all. If people believe they should be able to decide their own future, it's not surprising they would think the same of the Falklanders. Not to mention that Scotland is not, and never has been, a colony.

    Also, outside here there are English people who share your view too; Jeremy Corbyn is exhibit A.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • The Voice

    I don't read tabloids, it's simply my conclusion. An extra £15 bn would sort out a lot of England'+s problems. There's nothing wrong with England it's headed down the right track, the polls tell us that. The looney leaderless left are a joke.
    All over Europe lots of folk are casting admiring glances at Brexit. I hope the Scots come with us. They are the nation with a deep schism currently run by ultranationalist tunnel vision loonies detached from reality. Scots need to wake up and elect a more sensible government.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    “The English have great difficulty in understanding the Nationalist mindset, perhaps, like the Japanese, they do not teach the distasteful parts of their imperial history to their children. That in itself speaks volumes”
    http://www.thesonsofscotland.co.uk/thehighlandclearances.htm

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Wow, The Voice. You need to take a good hard look in the mirror. Most people in Europe think we are the ultranationalist loonies with a deep schism who are detached from reality. The great majority of people I have spoken to from outside Britain are baffled by Brexit, and can't understand why we would do such an obviously injurious thing.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -8
  • Voice

    Mr. Think

    It's a strange quote, when you consider that the main perpetrators of the clearances were actually Scots...

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • The Voice

    Argentinaurus Thinkus for a stool pigeon resident in Brook Street you show a lamentable lack of knowledge of your host country, especially the education system. Not a brain washing operation peddling lies like Argylands propaganda operation. Telling it truthfully, warts and all, the English way...

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    Think
    You are saying that it was the English who caused the clearances. I think you will find that the Scots were complicit in this to a great degree.

    You seem to think that it happened only in the Highlands. The Lowlands were depopulated to a greater extent before the Highland clearances even started.
    There are still crofters in the Highlands. There are none left in the Lowlands.
    It was not the English who were the main instigators.
    You should get out of your “weird fixations” for the “noble Highlanders” and look at reality.

    My ancestors were probably a bunch of cattle thieves who liked nothing but a good punch-up. They lived in a society from which the rest of the country had moved on from.

    When the Jacobite risings took place, it was the chief who decided to raise the Clan.

    If you did not agree then your croft could be burned and you would be exiled .
    Hardly the romantic story you seem to believe.


    DT
    “Do you ever feel guilty for taking that easy way out? ”

    Sorry, but you have lost me here. What easy way out are you speaking of ?

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 10:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    All these references to the long distant past whether it relates to Scotland or the Falkland Islands are totally irrelavent. It's the here and now and the future we should be thinking about, rather than concerning ourselves with the obvious interventions of shit stirring or lunatic trolls. They are just entertainment... ;-)))

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Voice

    In the case of the Falklands the past does affect the present so it is not irrelevant.
    There will have to be, at some point, a solution to the situation. The UK can not afford to keep throwing our money at it forever...
    I dare say you would all act no differently to Mr. Think if the situation were reversed, there is no lunacy in his posts from his perspectivel...

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Briton

    Its always someone else's fault,

    we will all suffer for voting out,
    more rhetoric,

    so much for Democracy.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 11:18 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Think

    Mr. Voice..

    You say...
    “It's a strange quote, when you consider that the main perpetrators of the clearances were actually Scots...”

    I say...:
    Not strange at all...
    Rule “Número Uno”in the Grand Engrish Colonial Book...
    Divide and Conquer..., lad...
    In the case of Scotland...: Lowlanders against Highlanders...
    (And please... don't get me started about them bloody damn Campbells trecherous scum)

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    I think we should learn this stuff at school. I learnt almost nothing about the British Empire, and nothing about how the UK was formed. We need to know what happened in the past, both to understand how other people feel, and to know the truth about things like the Highland Clearances, which people try to twist to suit their purpose in one way or another.

    @Think
    “Their imperial history”? No, I can well understand that it's easier to think of yourself as a victim, and blame all the bad parts of your history on another country or people. However much truth or otherwise there may be in that. People don't need any outside intervention to start fighting in my experience, and because you were a victim does not stop you victimising others.

    @Clyde15
    I meant do you feel guilty about agreeing with the people who blame colonialism on the English, and pretending it had nothing to do with you, as you said.

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -9
  • Voice

    Mr. Think
    Yes I was rather using broad strokes, the whole story does indeed involve the systematic destruction of the Clann system and way of life of the Highlands, with plenty of awards to English and favoured nobles of Jacobite lands...

    I take the Enduro up on the hills a lot and see the many abandoned crofts, just four low walls standing it's quite sad...and when you look at the poor quality stake they had it's difficult to imagine how they were able to survive...

    ...but..... Those days are past now, and in the past they must remain...;-)

    Mar 16th, 2017 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Lunatic isn't aimed at Think, Think knows exactly what he is doing. It's unThinkable for the UK to do anything different regarding the Falklands in the foreseeable future therefore it is irrelavent to drag up past history to prove this or that. The only place it will ever get tested is in a court and this isn't a court. Although all these forums are obviously a testing ground for the Argies to try to develop counter arguments for later use in a court.

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Clyde15

    DT
    You have misread the subtlety of my statement. It was tongue - in -cheek.

    The Scots practically ran the Empire and the Colonial service and NO, I don't feel guilty

    Think McThinkface McDonald---ersatz variety
    I just noticed that you were praising George Galloway who is regarded by most Scots as a self-seeking clown who would do anything to get publicity. That tells us all we need to know about you.

    And as to your remark about the Campbells it shows that you have a very little grasp of Scottish history.
    ” Due to the involvement of Argyll's regiment under Glenlyon's command, the massacre was regarded by many (who were schooled in the romantic 19th-century school of Scottish history) not as a government action, but as a consequence of the ancient MacDonald–Campbell rivalry.”

    It may also trouble you to know that two Lowland Officers, lieutenants, Lt Francis Farquhar and Lt Gilbert Kennedy even broke their swords rather than carry out their orders. They were arrested and imprisoned, but were exonerated, released and later gave evidence for the prosecution against their superior officers.

    Your Scot's persona is laughable, but of course I can understand that, as being Argentinian means you have drawn the short straw.

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • The Voice

    Argentinaurus Thinkus, are you also an expert on dinosaurs? After all you claim to have lived amongst them?

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @Clyde15
    Now I am curious what you learned about the Empire at school. Did you learn “the distasteful parts of our imperial history”? (Or any parts?)

    When was Think praising George Galloway? He does seem like just the sort of person Think would admire.

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • Voice

    DemonTree

    Apart from the fact that George Galloway is a staunch Unionist...

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 01:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    I was a child when the countries of our Empire were gaining their independence. What we learnt at school concerning Empire was about trade but also about slavery and British efforts to stop it although we had been keen parcipitents before Wilberforce. Daily the news carried stories on insurgency - Palestine, Kenya. Cyprus, Malaya, Aden. We were anxious about our people and armed forces. There were no holds barred about atrocities carried out by the British as far as I can remember although some were not reported in the way they are now remembered. There were books relating to life in the colonies under British rule, comics and annuals carried stories too. Life was much simpler, colder and initially rationed, but it was good with things getting better year by year. By the late 60s the Empire was all over. As I have travelled around many of ex colonies people have often commented with no prompting from me that life was better when the British were here. This often seems to relate to the fact that there was law and order and ethnic, religious and political groups were not fighting with each other. i.e. similar to the UK was before we had regional parliaments

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Think

    Mr. DemonTree...

    You ask...:
    “When was Think praising George Galloway?”...

    I say...:
    You must get better aquainted with the special rules that apply for “El Think” in here...:

    A) If I mention anybody...: I'm automatically praising him/her or comparing meself with that person... (Remember our Ganhiji exchange? ;-)

    B) If I brake one of them many Engrishmen tabus about their hygiene and mention, for example their custom of smearing their own fæces all around their lower parts with the help of some cellulose sheets... instead of properly washing themselves with soap and water...: I'm playing with me own pooo...;-)

    3) If I mention me kids...: I'm a pedophile...;-)

    4) If I mention me ex-missus's...: I'm a misogynist...;-)

    5) if I want them Engrish out of the Argie South Atlantic Zone...: I'm all of the above..., plus a stinky commie jewish nazi fascist black dago racist.... from Yorkshire...;-)

    Etc...
    Etc......
    Etc..........

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    Oh, so they were teaching about slavery even back then? That seemed to be our 'bad history' quota, we saw reproductions of pamphlets etc produced by the abolitionists, showing the appalling conditions on the slave ships, and stats of how many people died during the voyage, and descriptions of the auctions where families were split up and sold to different owners.

    Which atrocities were they reporting on? I didn't realise people generally knew about them while they were happening. Did no one try and do something about it?

    Also did you learn about stuff like the Opium Wars and the scramble for Africa?

    @Think
    A) Let's not start that again...

    B)So that's what Elaine was on about? I was afraid to ask! Are bidets common in Argentina? Must be an Italian thing, I don't remember seeing a single one when I was in Central America, or in Norway either. In Finland however, there was a sort of miniature shower head by every loo, even the public toilets. Quite impressive.

    So what do you think of Galloway, apart from him being a staunch unionist?

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • Think

    Mr.DemonTree...
    Bidets are very common in Argentina...
    By the way... one doesn't need a bidet to wash oneself properly...
    Maybe it was..., after all..., the whole population 1st Baron Lytton was refering to...?

    Galloway...?
    I envy his rrrrrrrolling rrrrrrs...!
    I wish I could rrrrrroll them like that when nymphing a river with the occasional Scot...

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Kanye

    Voice, DT, Think

    Apart from the fact that George Galloway is a cat...

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • The Voice

    Back then, stuff was happening but no one saw it as atrocities, just fighting insurgency, holding back communist take overs and protecting the population from terrorism. History revises how things are seen like it revises words and attitudes. Similar to what is going on in certain UK Universities now where free speech is under attack.

    Mar 17th, 2017 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    So you knew stuff was happening, but did you really understand and know the extent of it: that suspects were being tortured, and people including children imprisoned in camps where they died of disease, and British police or soldiers were carrying out massacres. Things like this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22797624

    and mistreatment of detainees described by Kenya's then attorney general as “distressingly reminiscent of conditions in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia”.

    Or you did know about all these things, but you didn't see them as atrocities? You thought they were necessary to prevent communist takeovers or terrorism?

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -8
  • The Voice

    No, not the detail. And I was a child and didn't think anything other than worry a little about British people who were in these places. Very often it seems we overreacted, but that's with the luxury of hindsight. At the time naturally it was about protecting people with the best of intentions. In my 20s I worked with a member of the SAS who was in Malaya. What he told me would make your hair turn white. It was the only place communist terrorists were utterly defeated. As a consequence Malaysia and Singapore with their very disparate racial and religious groups are stable countries where people can lead peaceful lives.

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Stoker

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1
    ;-D

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    Not surprising you didn't know the details as a child, and the documents show that the people concerned were keen to hide what they were doing from the British public. But the fact that people were comparing themselves to Nazi Germany at the time, and trying to hide the truth, surely proves they knew what they were doing was wrong?

    And I don't think 'overreacted' is the right way to think about it. Would you say Nazi Germany 'overreacted' when they shot innocent civilians in revenge for partisans killing German officers? It was a deliberate policy which they thought would be effective, and it's the same with most of the British crimes in now former colonies.

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 03:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -8
  • The Voice

    If you are what the Nazis did in comparison to what the British did your values are seriously warped! You need to have a sense of proportion which you so obviously find challenging. Are you just another anti British troll?

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 04:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    @The Voice
    I didn't say Britain was as bad as the Nazis or anything of the kind (and I don't believe it). But we can compare specific acts can't we? I mentioned reprisals against partisans because they are somewhat comparable to the sort of atrocities we were talking about - they were limited, they had a clear military purpose - unlike the death camps which are really in a class of their own.

    My point is, the British colonial governments made a choice to use methods like torture, and it was not so long after prosecuting Nazis for war crimes either.

    And no, I'm not anti-British, but I'm pro-knowing the truth and learning from the past so we can avoid repeating our mistakes.

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 05:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • Kanye

    DT

    And those things do belong in the past - do you think they would past muster today, with today's British people?

    Bear in mind that all of Africa was under seige by seditionists - destruction of the social fabric of countries by terror, murder, assassination, burning of schools, upsetting family livelihoods and structure, - all the deliberate tools used by enemies of the government to create a vacuum for communism to take root.

    Just ask Mao who murdered civilians and burned farms. Umm... Stalin too. Pol Pot routed the “Intellectuals” ...

    What is a government to do?

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    “do you think they would past muster today, with today's British people?”

    I hope not. But people are far too willing to say “they don't care about our human rights, why should we care about theirs?” And just across the Atlantic, Trump said he would start torturing suspects again, and 60m Americans voted for him.

    The things the Mau-Mau did themselves were horrible, gruesome and barbaric. They really did need to be stopped. But if you're going to say the ends justify the means, then why not apply that to Mao and Stalin too? Britain wasn't in Kenya for the Kenyans' benefit.

    “What is a government to do?”

    Not invade other countries illegally, not help the US out with 'extraordinary rendition' and follow the laws it signed up to. That's what I'd like my government to do.

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 07:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -5
  • Kanye

    DT

    DT,

    You take an interesting view of Britain in Kenya.

    “But if you're going to say the ends justify the means, then why not apply that to Mao and Stalin too?”

    Are you comparing Britain in Kenya to Stalin and Mao who between them devastated the landscapes of two countries, murdering and starving 100m people, to establish a Workers' Utopia?

    I suppose that makes the Roca Argentine genocide of Patagonia look quite like small potatoes by comparison.

    Hardly worth commenting on, right?

    Even that is quite different from the British ceding Kenya to a one-party Kenyan government.

    Once again, your perspective on the British colonies seems very skewed to demonise the British. You hold them to a very high accounting relative to other ethnicities. Why is that?

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Voice

    As skewed as this...?

    www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-truth-our-empire-killed-millions-404631.html
    or this...?
    http://newbritishempire.site11.com/british-genocides.html

    Mar 18th, 2017 - 11:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • LukeDig

    Voice just shutted mouths.
    By the way if the scots are so submissive that want to forget history and stay with their sugar daddy so be it. It seems only the irish have a pair

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    No, I wasn't comparing Britain in Kenya to Stalin and Mao, although there were famines in India and Ireland during British rule.

    My point is really that we should judge ourselves and our allies by the same standards we use for our enemies. We don't try and excuse them by talking about seditionists or saying they just overreacted.

    And I don't think the genocide in Patagonia should be ignored just because it was on a smaller scale than some others. Same as I don't want to ignore British atrocities in Kenya just because other countries have committed worse crimes.

    “You hold them to a very high accounting relative to other ethnicities. Why is that?”

    Because I'm more concerned about what my own country has done than others, and I care more about what we might do in the future. But I think the difference is partly in your perspective too. If I had compared Argentina or some other country to Nazi Germany, would you have objected?

    @Voice
    That second site really is skewed. But I think most people in Britain have a much too rosy view of the Empire. We ought to learn a lot more about it at school.

    @LukeDig
    Go say that in a pub in Scotland, if you want to find out whether they 'have a pair'. You very obviously know nothing about the history and are not interested in learning, so your comments are a waste of time.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 12:32 am - Link - Report abuse -8
  • Briton

    What has this to do with Scotland,????

    if one thinks the British are guilty, then provide proof, or leave it well alone,
    no one is perfect,.

    not what abt scot.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 12:52 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Kanye

    DT,

    “ ...But I think the difference is partly in your perspective too. If I had compared Argentina or some other country to Nazi Germany, would you have objected?”

    Do you feel that is warranted?

    Would you deny that the rise of the military juntas in Argentina, Chile, and Brazil, were at least in part a reaction to the political assassinations, kidnappings, bank robberies, bombings, and terrorism of such groups as the Tupamaros, Shining Path, and other Communist insurgency groups?

    Who were our real enemies? It's not all black and white, DT.

    You might have a very interesting conversation with Enrique about “justifiable force”. Paradoxically, Enrique was in favour of forced “redistribution of wealth” to the People, he was against the Junta, yet also in favour of Argentine military subjugation of peaceful unarmed civilian neighbours in 1982.

    He might tell you that some people will sacrifice other values to fight or protect what they believe in, or protect others.

    I for one am glad I don't have to make those moral decisions every day.

    Tell us more about Kenya. Do you know where one draws the line?

    Good distraction though - you're learning from the masters on MP.

    Your Devil's Advocate role is in reality, a very judgemental one.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 04:33 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    What are you saying here? Do you think the British authorities treatment of the Mau-Mau (and those suspected of being involved) was justified?

    And the same for the Juntas in South America. Do you think if they hadn't used torture, and 'disappeared' people, the communists would have taken over and that would be worse? This seems like a case where the cure is as bad as the disease to me.

    As for comparing anyone to the Nazi's, they stand out because of the sheer scale and organisation of the terrible things they did; no one can say the holocaust wasn't planned and deliberate. But they were people, not bogey men. There have been other genocides, far too many, so why should the Nazis be off limits for comparisons?

    And where should we draw the line? I think the Geneva Conventions were created for that very purpose, and by signing up we agreed to that line.

    Also, 'Good distraction'? This thread has already ranged quite far. What am I supposed to be distracting you from?

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 01:50 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • Kanye

    DT

    “Also, 'Good distraction'? This thread has already ranged quite far. What am I supposed to be distracting you from?”

    We're talking about a proposal for a Scottish Referendum again in 2018 - drawing comparisons between that and ceding Kenya to a militant, violent, racially fuelled, Communist influence, single-party administration, is somewhat over the line.

    Holding “The Voice” as a British child, personally accountable, and demonising the British Public for their reaction in the era of 1964, is not relevant to the current debate on the principle of holding another peaceful referendum for legal separation.

    Your judgemental attitude towards the British and your supposed naivety towards every issue on MP after several months of relentless posting, gives me the impression that you cannot read or draw your own conclusions, or you are an unwitting, or witting, stooge for Mr. Think/voice, his staged straight-man.

    Mr. Think/voice is laughing in his jackboots to hear you comparing the British to the genocidal Nazi's - frankly, it is extremely offensive.

    Likewise, you must be naive and blindingly stupid to think that any society whose existence is threatened by terrorist guerrilla tactics, without a moral code, is going to adhere rigidly to the Geneva Convention code for the military.

    The anarchy tactics in Africa, SA, and elsewhere, opened the door not only to the Communists, but also other opportunists who could fill the vacuum.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Think

    Told you so..., Mr.DemonTree...
    Any Anglo that Thinks in here is stamped by the Turnips as “Mr. Thinks staged straight-man.”
    But... Thinking about it... Not bad at all being stamped as a Straight Thinking Man... isn't it... ;-)

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Voice

    Ya don't acquire the largest empire on Earth without killing a million or 50...
    How many people did the Germans kill...?

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    I wasn't drawing any comparisons between the Scottish Referendum and Kenya. Nor do I think Britain should ever have handed the country over to the Mau-Mau - it wasn't even a nationalist movement as such. I was just surprised when The Voice said “There were no holds barred about atrocities carried out by the British,” and I wanted to know how far that went. The Mau-Mau revolt was the most extreme example I could think of, and judging by his reply people did NOT know all the details, or how bad things really were.

    And of course I'm not crazy enough to hold The Voice or the rest of the British public personally accountable. Where did I say such a thing?

    “Likewise, you must be naive and blindingly stupid to think that any society whose existence is threatened by terrorist guerrilla tactics, without a moral code, is going to adhere rigidly to the Geneva Convention code for the military.”

    Is this your answer to my question about the Juntas, then? Their existence was threatened by communists, terrorists etc, so you supported them torturing and murdering their own citizens? At least until they invaded the Falklands and threatened British citizens instead.

    And I shouldn't mention the Nazis because it offends you? You were accusing me of black and white thinking, but now you are doing it. There's really no comparison with the Holocaust, but why can't I compare for example Luftwaffe bombing of British cities with RAF bombing of German cities? Or German treatment of POWS with British treatment of POWS? Is that offensive? My point was not that the British Empire was as bad as the Nazis - obviously it wasn't. It was to imagine how we would view the same actions if they were done by our enemies.

    @Think
    Heh, I don't know about bad but it's not very accurate. And your version of history is no more accurate than The Voice's and Kanye's, it's just biased the opposite way.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Think

    When have we discussed “my version of history” Mr. DemonTree...?
    What is “my version of history”...?
    Could you direct me to it...?

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    A learning curve for DemonTree...Troy Tempest will always be on your case if you say anything he deems anti British...
    He's an Anglophile that has convinced himself he's British because his grandfather or great grandfather was a chemist in Blighty...

    Did I say Troy Tempest...I meant Kanye...;-)

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 06:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Clyde15

    Think
    Your version of history is that the Falklands belong to Argentina, that Scotland is held captive by the English. This is augmented by your other haverings.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    Judging from your writings, your version of history is that the Union of England and Scotland was just like China invading and annexing Tibet, and that the Highland Clearances and every other bad thing that has ever happened in Scotland were all the fault of the English. Even Voice disagrees with you! Plus you seem to have a very romanticised view of the Highlanders; why were you always calling Clyde15 'Lowlander' until recently?

    You also 'got on my case' when I told LukeDig that Britain was not responsible for the Paraguayan war, and I have still not seen a single shred of evidence for this assertion.

    I'm not going to stop defending Britain because of what you say, but I'm not going to lie about it either, even if Kanye thinks telling the truth is anti-British.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Think

    Lowlander Clyde15
    My humble personal opinions about those two beloved but very periferic, thinly populated and quite irrelevant areas of this planet as Patagonia and Scotland are..., hardly provide any base to infer my version of the world's history...

    Mr. DemonTree...
    I do suspect that you know very little about the last 1,000 years of Sino-Tibetan history...
    Maybe even less than about the Oz and Kiwi Antarctic Territories...
    Anyhow..., I Think we share..., from different platforms..., much of the same moral and ethical anguish, sorrow and distress...

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    The comments you post in here are the only base we have to infer your version of the world's history. And my impression from that is that your version is very simple; Britain and especially England is always the bad guy.

    I do know very little about “the last 1,000 years of Sino-Tibetan history”, but if you have some valid point to make, you have to actually make it, not give us the bullshit dumbed down version.

    And about your last bit: perhaps...

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 08:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Think

    You infer and assume far too too much..., Mr. DemonTree....

    Britain and England ain't..., in my humble opinon..., always the bad guys....

    But in the specific cases of Patagonia and Alba.. I do find it quite difficult to wiew them as the good guys...

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • DemonTree

    @Think
    By taking you at your word?

    And I don't expect you to view Britain or England as the good guys. I do expect you to look fairly at what actually happened and not uncritically claim that eg. Britain caused the Paraguayan war based on no evidence at all.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 08:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Clyde15

    Think
    For humble read arrogant.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Kanye

    DT

    “...I don't expect you to view Britain or England as the good guys. I do expect you to look fairly at what actually happened and not uncritically claim that eg. Britain caused the Paraguayan war based on no evidence at all.”

    Good guidance for you to live by for sure.

    Using the 1964 Kenya situation to equate the British committing “atrocities” on a par with the Nazi's is a very dishonest, shameless, and fundamentally flawed analogy, on your part.

    You misrepresented “the truth” solely to further your own position. Still not sure of your motivation.

    For me to suggest that Communist insurgency gave rise to reactions against the anarchists that may have included some human rights abuses of their own, does not mean I condone it or saying it should be overlooked.

    Do not put words in my mouth.

    I did not say that I supported the Argentine junta until they turned against the Falklands.

    I used the examples of the SA juntas to demonstrate that the situations and the players are not uncompromisingly black and white.

    I did say there were opportunists who had their own agenda.



    Judge that for what you think it was.

    You tell us, do you think a Communist takeover of SA was preferable to the Junta alternative, or to whatever they have now?

    Look how Kenya and their opportunists turned out.

    We have transgressed quite far from the original discussion. Further discussions of ideological race wars and genocides, and terrorism are only more distraction.

    Mar 19th, 2017 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • willowas1

    nicola sturgeons scottish national party is a bit like my dad-oladejo awoku-if he coughs we all catch cold

    Mar 20th, 2017 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Kanye

    Down-ticks.

    A Think, Voice, DT ? “offensive”...

    Mar 20th, 2017 - 04:36 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    That IS the guidance I try to live by. I haven't misrepresented anything, and as I said earlier, my 'position' is merely that we should judge ourselves and our allies by the same standards we use for our enemies.

    So what are you saying about the juntas? That human rights abuses are inevitable, or (partly?) the fault of the insurgents? Would you say the same about human rights abuses in Cuba?

    “You tell us, do you think a Communist takeover of SA was preferable to the Junta alternative, or to whatever they have now?”

    That's hard to say. At least for Argentina, the Junta was a repressive dictatorship that did not allow free speech, tortured and murdered dissidents, and crashed the economy - pretty much what one would expect a communist government to do. But those were not the only two options. If there had been no coup Argentina may have just ended up with some kind of socialist, populist government not unlike the recent one. Or the juntas could have dealt with the communists without using torture and murder. They *definitely* could have dealt with dissidents without stealing their babies.

    And it wasn't me who downvoted you, though I'm assuming it was you who voted down my perfectly innocuous comments in other threads? You only have two downvotes anyway.

    Mar 20th, 2017 - 09:34 am - Link - Report abuse -13
  • Kanye

    DT

    ”So what are you saying about the juntas? That human rights abuses are inevitable, or (partly?) the fault of the insurgents? Would you say the same about human rights abuses in Cuba?“

    I merely said the Juntas were possibly an opportunistic reaction to a threat from a foe that was not bounded by a moral code.

    You self-righteously imply that I am ”victim-blaming“ for the reprehensible actions by others.

    Will you take your analogies further and accuse me of saying, ”women that dress inappropriately deserve to be raped”?

    I think you need to reel in your piety, Vicar.

    Mar 20th, 2017 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    Okay, I will stop accusing you of blaming the victims if you stop accusing me of misrepresenting the truth, demonising the British public, and being naive and blindingly stupid, among other things. Fair?

    Also, I was going to accuse you of downvoting me, but your last post has nearly as many, and Think and Voice have been voted up. Very unusual, and seems to coincide with the appearance of this Doveoverdover.

    Mar 21st, 2017 - 08:37 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Kanye

    Accuse me of blaming the victims all you like - it just makes you look stupid.

    As to misrepresenting the truth to make some fallacious and self-righteous point, I will call you out on it regardless of whether you feel offended.

    Stop doing it - fair?

    Mar 21st, 2017 - 12:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    Where do you think I 'misrepresented the truth'? Quote me.

    Mar 21st, 2017 - 01:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -2
  • Kanye

    DT

    Must we go through all this again?

    You misrepresented the truth by using it to make flawed analogy and accusing the British of being no better than Nazi's.

    It was only a few posts ago
    - 1964 Kenya - does that ring a bell?

    You are being deliberately obtuse.

    In fact, your whole “gosh, do ya really think them fellers are as bad as that” playing dumb act, is wearing very thin.

    You are a “catfish” - did things get so quiet on MP that you've been sent in to re-ignite the issues that were all thrashed out before?

    Downticks:

    Seems that “Think/voice” has finally figured out that he can gather all his multiple logins to sway the upticks and downticks.

    Mar 21st, 2017 - 02:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    I just offered to let the matter drop, but you decided to repeat your accusation. So let's have this out.

    I am not asking you to quote me to be obtuse. It's because I DID NOT SAY the British were no better than the Nazis. I even said the opposite several times! So back up your accusation or stop repeating it. And while we are on the subject, I never said anything even close to “gosh, do ya really think them fellers are as bad as that”, either.

    Why are you so determined to pick a fight with me? If you stopped twisting my words into something offensive, we would barely be disagreeing at all.

    Mar 21st, 2017 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Kanye

    DT

    I expect you do want to let the matter drop.

    You have harrassed The Voice, demanding an accounting for British actions in Kenya 50 years ago, you have made an outrageously inappropriate and false analogy between the British and the Nazi's and their motives.

    You have also made insinuating remarks that The Voice and myself condone torture and racist pogroms and have for some reason, done your best to elicit from us an affirmation of British “atrocities”.


    We are talking about the proposed Scottish Refendum in 2018/19, yet even when I point out that you are deflecting relevant discussion away from the subject, you try to bring up other “British genocides”.

    This seems to be a matter of great concern to you, but it is unrelated to Scotland's 2018 issue.

    You seem to have at the very least, done a good search through Wikidemia on the events of Kenya.

    I suggest that if you feel strongly that Britain and her current politicians and public need to account for past “genocides” and “atrocities”, you join a group or a forum that focuses on that subject.

    Nothing more needs to be said here.

    Mar 22nd, 2017 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Pugol-H

    @DemonTree
    In your rush to point out “similarities”, you completely miss the “differences” in events.

    Not to mention context.

    Mar 22nd, 2017 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    Not at all. I was willing to let it drop because this 'blue on blue' action is foolish, and because I had no particular beef with you. But I suspect it is you who will not be posting again, now that I have asked you to back up your false accusations.

    I see that you are no longer claiming I “accused the British of being no better than Nazi's” - admission enough that you were wrong. Instead you say I “made an outrageously inappropriate and false analogy between the British and the Nazi's and their motives,” which is at least within spitting distance of the truth. That it is 'outrageously inappropriate' is just your opinion, and you haven't even disputed its truth since you were too busy being offended and trying to put words into my mouth.

    As for your other accusations, now that I know you are not debating in good faith I will not be replying to any unless you back them up with some evidence that I actually said what you claim. You should know damn well that only one of us has been misrepresenting the truth in this discussion, and it's you.

    Oh, and I will continue to post on any topic that comes up. Discussion is more interesting that way, and there's really no other purpose to these comments.

    @Pugol-H
    You'll have to be more specific. Which events and what similarities and differences are you thinking of?

    Mar 22nd, 2017 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Kanye

    DT
    After the first couple of sentences... you are correct - I am not pursuing this.

    I called you out, right off the mark and you started waffling and putting words in my mouth.

    You have introduced the Nazi analogy and all the connotations that word carries, to describe British behaviour 50 years ago in Kenya, demanding an affirmation of unspecified “atrocities” and motives.

    I pointed out that it was an offensive, flawed analogy and a diversion.

    I am not obligated to rationalise and justify British foreign policy in Africa 50 years to you because you have an axe to grind and raised it gratuitously in a post in order to confront someone.

    It has nothing to do with Scotland's Referendum.

    Your responses at the time were feeble attempts to call into question my moral values and insinuate bigotry, racism, and hypocrisy.

    I stand by what I said. Go back and read it.

    Perhaps you could tell us why you equate the British with Nazi's, and why you persisted in denouncing the British for other “genocides”.

    None of that is relevant here, and it points to some personal cause of your own.

    Again, not relevant.

    I am NOT demanding you explain yourself or justify your position. That speaks for itself.

    I hope you possess the good graces to feel embarrassed by what you said, however.

    As I said, I am not going to
    pursue this further, unless you try it again.

    Mar 23rd, 2017 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @Kanye
    I started to write an angry reply, but then I had second thoughts. You are obviously suspicious of my motives, and as a result I have become suspicious of yours. But reading your posts today made me reconsider.

    I've just reread this thread, and here is your first post:

    “Think/voice is all about promoting doubt, discontent, and division.”

    We have managed to create a lot of pointless division, whether influenced by Think or not I'm not sure.

    I am not particularly bothered whether you agree with me or not, and I think you are entitled to your opinion. The only things I object to in your posts are your misinterpretations of what I have said and refusal to listen when I tried to clarify, and your claims that I am anti-British.

    So, if you will agree to take me at my word in future, rather than jumping to conclusions about my motives and meaning, I am willing to put this argument behind us.

    Are you willing to do that? And what do you want from me to do the same?

    Mar 23rd, 2017 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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