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Montevideo, July 18th 2018 - 06:25 UTC

Brazilian electorate cautious, a week after the imprisonment of Lula da Silva

Monday, April 16th 2018 - 09:05 UTC
Full article 37 comments

Brazilian voters are abandoning jailed former President Lula da Silva as his chances of running in October fade, but they are not transferring their support en masse to other leftist candidates, a Datafolha poll showed on Sunday. Without Lula in the running, support for far-right candidate Jair Bolsonaro has slipped and is now virtually tied with environmentalist Marina Silva in a presidential race thrown wide open, the survey said. Read full article

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  • golfcronie

    Was the poll conducted in the Favelas?

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 09:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @ALL:

    So which crook will be [or should be; according to you] the next corrupt president?

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 04:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I see Temer is planning to break his promise not to run again. Dishonesty from the President, what a shock.

    It will be interesting to see who the PT pick as a substitute candidate, assuming Lula is banned due to the lei da ficha limpa.

    @ :o))
    Marcelo Odebrecht; cut out the middle man.

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    According to an IPSOS poll (taken 7th April), 46% are against Lula's imprisonment, while 50% are favourable ; 57% believe he's guitly as charged, only 32% believe in his innocence (reflects his 'petista' following) ; 50% think his imprisonment is justified, 44% don't.

    According to Datafolha, in another poll, where the various names of candidates are mentioned, Lula obtained 30%, but in different poll, where the names were left out,
    just asking the people who they'd vote for, Lula dropped to 13%.....the 13% seems to be a far more realistic, given the current situation (Lula ineligible, Lei da Ficha Limpa).

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    According to that at least 7% of people believe Lula is guilty, but don't think he deserves to be in jail, which is kind of crazy.

    Perhaps without the names being in the poll, people assumed Lula would not be able to stand so they picked someone else. It's kind of odd they aren't switching to other leftist candidates, but a lot of Lula's following seems more about him than his party.

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 11:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    REF: “Marcelo Odebrecht; cut out the middleman”:

    TRUE!
    A perfect choice; competing with an equally qualified & an equally strong candidate: the BRF Chairman Abilio Diniz [amonst the other NOTABLES like Eduardo Cunha, Sergio Cabral, Lula, etc if Temer doesn't WANT to be the next president]. REF:
    https://jornaloexpresso.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/charge.jpg

    Apr 16th, 2018 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Such contradictions are to be expected when dealing with morons.

    “Perhaps without the names being in the poll, people assumed Lula would not be able to stand so they picked someone else.”
    Don't think so...Lula is still officially a candidate (at least until the registration deadline - in August - when the TSE will be obliged to accept it, OR, declare him ineligible, as per the “Ficha Limpa”), and because in that poll, NO names were mentioned, putting all unmentioned candidates on equal footing.

    Lula's worn out image is becoming clearer by the day. To me, the weak turn outs at Lula's recent political rallys up in the NE and down in the south of Brazil, are an indication that the truth is finally sinking in. The supporters that followed him everywhere, were the same 40 or 50 busloads of flagwaving idiots who got free sandwiches and R$ 30 per day.

    When the PT's money runs out, I'd like to see who is going to finance the MST, MTST....perhaps the leftist unions, but their main source of income (obligatory worker contribution) has been dealt a heavy blow (with the labour reform).

    I hope I'm right, but it seems that people are starting to realize that neither extreme is a good option.

    Apr 17th, 2018 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I don't know, I'm afraid you're seeing what you want to see. Seems clear Lula has lost support, but he's still by far the most popular. I think people are especially put off the centrist candidates because of the corruption - they have been influential and thus deeply involved, and without having a clear ideology, it might more likely be assumed that they are in politics for personal power and wealth.

    There is also the aspect that when things are going well, people stick with the status quo. When things are going badly, they want a change. Voting for extremists seems to be popular around the world right now, and things in Brazil are not exactly going swimmingly.

    Apr 17th, 2018 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: “When the PT's money runs out”:

    Do you mean: “IF” the PT's money runs out? During the 15 or so years; the amassed wealth could well be in terms of BILLIONS and NOT = just the Triplex-Value of a few million; which the Other Crooks are harping about.

    REF: The NEXT President: How can we forget/forgive?
    https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Aecio-Tranquilo.jpg?w=606&ssl=1

    Apr 18th, 2018 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Perhaps, but not really. The polls speak for themselves....he has dropped about 15% in the polls where the candidates names are mentioned....and by 60% in the 'spontaneous' poll.....this isn't just something in my imagination.

    ALL candidates - centre AND left - are up to their necks in corruption, and people are waking up to this. I think it's possible that perhaps the guy who's going to take it, hasn't even appeared yet. Those who've announced their candidacy are the same old shit, all over again. Don't know which is worse, the radicals or those in politics for personal power and wealth. But since both, in the end, want power , and weallth, I'll stick to the latter.

    Agree that people usually feel more comfortable with the status quo, with what they are used to, but to forget who caused the most serious recession in decades, they've got to be the stupidest people on Earth.

    @:o))
    You're right....the PT must have billions stashed away....just need to find it....that would mean extinction for the PT....and several other parties.

    Apr 19th, 2018 - 01:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: “PT must have billions stashed away”

    Just imagine the value of the TOTAL of ALL the stashed billions by ALL the political parties Plus their Associates [Politicians+Entrepreneurs+Bureaucrats+Others] for YEARS! That should run into Trillions [no exaggeration]!
    And FINALLY;
    Reuters poll: The OPTIMISM BEGINS:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-latam-economy-poll/optimism-begins-to-fade-over-brazil-growth-prospects-reuters-poll-idUSKBN1HP1A5

    Apr 19th, 2018 - 08:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I wonder if that is because people think Lula's guilty, or they just believe they won't be able to vote for him?

    The people who are planning to stand do seem mostly predictable, and the charges against Neves suggest that the corruption would have continued unhindered no matter who won the last election. Will this one be the same?

    I saw that a former STF judge, Joaquim Barbosa, has suggested standing. What do you think of him? Honest or not? And would he be any good as President?

    RE the recession, if it was Dilma standing for election again I think she'd certainly lose. And if she was still in power then people would be forced to blame the PT for the recession, but by taking power the PMDB and other parties have made it possible for people to blame them for the worsening situation instead, and AFAIK there isn't much of a practical recovery yet to compensate. Besides, Lula is so much more popular than his party, if he stands then who knows what could happen.

    Apr 19th, 2018 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Might be a combination of both, but whichever it is, it's taking its toll.

    Not wanting to be pessimistic, but unless there is a significant renewal in Congress, doubt the mentality will change, much. On the other hand, I'm optimistic, in that the example of politicians being removed from office (after immunity ends) should send them a message, which could sink into their heads.

    Barbosa, based on his personal history, and his insistent crusade against corruption in the 'mensalão' makes him a reasonably good candidate...but will the millions of ignoramuses see it that way ?

    Dilma hasn't the slightest chance....and don't believe anyone thinks the cause of the recession was any other but the PT, but they have short memories, and probably never realized the extent to which corruption was imbedded in the Federal government, or how much was stolen - which 'could' make a difference to their lives if invested correctly.

    The PMDB, entering government in 2010 (Temer as VP) made sure they got their cut, so despite the efforts in the right direction (reforms), their past is coming back to haunt them. The PT crisis exploded end 2014/beginning 2015, but had been in the making for at least 3 years, being covered up lies and incorrect stats. Only reason Lula carries on saying he's a candidate, is because he wants to keep the torch lit, to be able to pass it on when the TSE declares him ineligible (sometime September).

    Apr 19th, 2018 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “You're right....the PT must have billions stashed away....just need to find it..” The usual reactionary logic, if we can’t find any evidence, then they must be guilty. Give your head shake, what an utter perversion, and illogic nonsense.

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 01:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @JB:

    REF: ”Only reason .....................(sometime September)”:

    The ONLY reason Lulla wants to be a candidate [or a president?];
    - is to save his rear end
    - because he is confident that the ignorant masses will still support him [many can't even estimate the size of the illicit dough PT amassed during nearly 20 years]
    - to correct the past mistakes by becoming a more sophisticated crook; so that the future investigations [if he can't ban them] will never be able to pinpoint him.

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I'm sure the voters will want to get rid of the same old (corrupt) faces, but is there any other option? I should think there's some risk that a bunch of unknowns are elected, leaving no one who really knows what they are doing.

    There's an article about Barbosa today; it says he hasn't decided yet but would be standing for the Brazilian Socialist party, which may affect your opinion. Or is it one of those socialist parties that aren't really socialist?

    I'm sure you're right about why Lula is still saying he's a candidate. He was able to transfer his popularity to Dilma, but would it work a second time? And I wonder if the PMDB will suffer more than the other big parties in the election because of Temer's unpopularity. Didn't they change their name recently (to get rid of bad associations)?

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 05:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    REF: “I'm sure............................there any other option?”:

    - The old farts will be replaced by the new, younger, better trained [in corruption] and more sophisticated crooks than their earlier generations.

    - Joaquim Barbosa: Bloomberg-Politics calls him an Anti-Corruption Crusader but he may change his “spots” upon changing the role - after learning “How To”.

    - SOME undesirables will automatically be elected due to the absence of better choices, but mainly due to a large number ignorant, mesmerized and careless voters. REF:
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EuUmvEmI1w/Vv2n1Zosy0I/AAAAAAAABw8/EHkCboM9HPgdKYkL9BBpRi8mnb13yR8OQ/s400/voto_consciente.jpg

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @Terence Lula Liar Hill
    get off your chicken perch and prove they don't ...

    @DT
    Can't trust the Brazilian voter...generally not too bright. And the options probably aren't any better.

    Regarding Barbosa, 'a' socialist party or 'the' Brazilian Socialist Party (PSB) ?
    Considering that today most parties like to call themselves 'socialists', without it's members really knowing what socialism is, will have to wait until he starts campaigning, to see what his plans are...

    The problem with Lula trying to transfer his popularity to a last-minute candidate, is exactly the 'last -minute' , which wouldn't give them much time to campaign with that candidate, besides the fact that today there is no super-popular 'petista'....Just to remeber, in the 2016 elections (for mayor), the PT lost in 60% of the counties they controlled (until then). Seems they paid a high price for Lula's antics (already charged in 6 or 7 Federal cases). They probably got their traditional votes from the 'hardcore' petistas, but wasn't enough.

    The PMDB (and several other parties) changed their name(s) around the end of last year (after the wear and tear Congress suffered due to their internal politics, resulting in the incapacity to push the social security reform through, and) in an attempt to disassociate themselves from public perception that most were corrupt... While the parties may have managed to confuse most people (as to who they were and are now), the politicians might find that a bit harder.

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “prove they don't …” Not my burden its yours as you’re the one who made the assertion.
    “…the PT must have billions stashed away....just need to find it..”
    Fallacious shifting of the burden of proof occurs if someone makes a claim that needs justification, then demands that the opponent justify the opposite of the claim. The opponent has no such burden until evidence is presented for the claim.
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    Jack can barely contain his joy, hoping that finally Lula is out for good.

    “Lula's worn out image is becoming clearer...the truth is finally sinking in,” he writes.

    Meanwhile, Skull keeps repeating his mantra ad nauseum: “they all are crooks,” a line seeking to discourage people's participation (Don't bother--Just stay home on Oct. 7).

    Beyond interested speculations, Lula's statement on April 7 reflects his stoic acceptance of whatever fate may reserve him, as well as his faith in the eventual triumph of good over darkness:

    “Os poderosos podem matar uma, duas ou três rosas, mas jamais podem deter a chegada da Primavera.” (The powerful may kill one, two, three roses, but they can never stop the arrival of Spring).“

    Further, the following statement shows how high Lula's ideas fly, well above the mezquine machinations of those ready to kill and imprison to protect their privileges:

    ”Eu não sou mais um ser humano, eu sou uma ideia.” (I'm no longer a human being--I am an idea).

    Too much of a name to be on the ballots.

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 11:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    WHY blame the crooks when the population itself is the MAIN culprit?
    http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//paixao.jpg

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Voters in the US and UK have proved just as susceptible to populism, unfortunately. I don't think people in Brazil are any stupider, just less educated.

    I checked and it is the PSB Barbosa has joined. Are they real socialists, then? There's so many parties it gets very confusing.

    Dilma wasn't well known before Lula picked her as candidate, was she? But she did have time to campaign and make her face known, which whoever they end up picking as a substitute this time won't have. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

    ”While the parties may have managed to confuse most people (as to who they were and are now), the politicians might find that a bit harder.”

    That's true, especially the big name ones. No one is going to be at all confused about who Temer, or Alckmin, or Meirelles are if they stand.

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Democracy: Being able to vote + Being utterly helpless in sacking those who are Incompetent AND Racketeers!
    http://static.psdb.org.br/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2017/02/24133157/charge-democracia-petista-1024x684.jpg

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 06:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “don't think people in Brazil are any stupider, just less educated”. Sure, but being less educated makes it harder for them see through the political chicanery and realize what going on behind the scenes...so the result is much the same...people not understanding what is at stake. The PSB, although going back to the 40s (leftist philosophy) and after the military regime, re-defining itself as socialist and democratic, is one of the stronger parties, but considering all parties throw ‘democratic’ around as if it gave them a certificate of honesty, it doesn’t mean much. You only see their true colours when they wield power. But considering they were in favour of impeaching both Collor (1992) and Dilma (2016), can’t be all bad, compared to what is presently out there. Their presidential candidate in 2014, Eduardo Campos (killed in an air-crash months before the election), could’ve won. But I’d like to know is , will Barbosa absorb PSB philosophy or will he stick to his own convictions ? Before being officially announced as Lula’s candidate, Dilma had quite a bit of exposure as his minister of mines & energy (in charge of Petrobras), so she fit the role.

    @EM
    Looks like you carry on blind..and licking yr wounds -“Jack can barely contain his joy, hoping that finally Lula is out for good”.
    “Barely contain his joy” ? Wouldnt say my words express “joy”, just the facts, without emotion....but I see that your “interpretation” (again) of what I wrote, reading “joy” into it, must hurt your feelings ..I feel so sorry for you.

    As to yr comments on “Skull's” posts, it is funny that you prefer to believe “what you want to believe” instead of the opinions of two people who live here and are far better informed than you are.

    Lula's remark (according to you), ””Eu não sou mais um ser humano, eu sou uma ideia.” (I'm no longer a human being--I am an idea), is typical of him, and pathetic...having lost everything, tries to create a personal cult.

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I reckon Brazil being such a big country must also make it harder to know what is going on. If you live in the NE you probably don't pay much attention to what politicians in the south are doing, and vice-versa.

    Guess we'll have to wait and see what Barbosa does, like you said. He might not even stand. Is he the one Lula called 'ungrateful' for prosecuting the mensalão?

    ”Dilma had quite a bit of exposure as his minister of mines & energy (in charge of Petrobras), so she fit the role.”

    Right, I hadn't realised that. Surely before Temer took over there were PT ministers who might be able to take over as candidate?

    RE EM's comments, I thought it was funny he accused :o)) of trying to discourage people's participation. Who's he supposed to be discouraging, you? The rest of us don't have a vote, and I should think EM would rather you didn't bother.

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    REF: “Marcelo Odebrecht; cut out the middleman”:

    Insulting [?] the Highly Respectable Gentlemen - Marcelo Odebrecht & Batista Brothers - will get you nowhere!

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 10:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Those from the south probably know what's going on in the NE, but vice-versa not so much.
    But your right, the size of the country tends to isolate one region from another.

    Yep, Barbosa is the one that the toad called 'ungrateful'...

    When the PT - in order to avoid Lula's impeachment in 2007 - was obliged to bring the PMDB into government (by accepting Temer as VP in 2010 elections), there were no PT ministers popular enough to be his successor, but by what I've read, José Dirceu had hopes ; however, I doubt Lula would have supported him, as he preferred someone he could control...i.e., Dilma. Anyway, by then Dirceu had already been charged in the “mensalão” (2006), being convicted by the STF in 2012. (BTW, a good example of how justice can delay when the case reaches the STF).
    EM's comments can be a bit confusing.

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    You'd never heard of Marielle until she was murdered, and RdJ isn't some obscure place, so I guess the local politics doesn't get much coverage outside each state.

    Six years in the STF isn't *so* bad, but would have been enough time for Dirceu to be elected President, if Lula had picked him instead of Dilma. So what would have happened if the STF conviced a sitting president of corruption?

    As for EM, it seems to be a common illusion on this website that people have some important mission to spread one belief or another. Personally I assume other posters are here for the same reason I am: to argue with other people and maybe learn a thing or two by doing so.

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 09:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: “people have some important mission to spread one belief or another”:

    FACT or FICTION?:
    SOME undesirables [although well-known racketeers (and permitted to be the candidates)] will automatically be elected due to the absence of better choices, but mainly due to a large number ignorant, mesmerized and careless voters. REF:
    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5EuUmvEmI1w/Vv2n1Zosy0I/AAAAAAAABw8/EHkCboM9HPgdKYkL9BBpRi8mnb13yR8OQ/s400/voto_consciente.jpg

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 11:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Marielle was a councilwoman, so quite likely even in neighbouring counties no one would have heard of her.

    “...if the STF conviced a sitting president of corruption?” Good question, don't know. But wouldn't be surprised if the (PMDB in the) Senate butted in, claiming it was their prerrogative to destitute a president. The fact is the Law is many times ambiguous and is full of loopholes, which doesn't help..

    I think the problem with a few posters is that they don't bother to inform themselves properly, believe what they want to (based purely on ideology) and refuse to acknowledge facts that go against their political beliefs.

    (Continuation of “Brazil's Supreme Court delays considering a change of law ...”)

    Good ex. of a rich but corrupt politician : Paulo Maluf : multimillionaire owner of Eucatex (leading hard/softboard manufacturer), Gov of S.Paulo (1979-82), mayor (city) of SP, 4 term Congressman, & excellent administrator ; Denounced for corruption years ago, recently, his lawyers tried (unsuccessfully) to block the repatriation of US$ 200 million found in his name, in a secret offshore account, which he had insistently denied was his. Why try to block it, if not his ?

    I’m inclined to believe that public corruption started with someone in a privileged position realizing they had the power to make a quick buck…then the MO set in, and flourished. More likely demands would’ve originated from those who wielded political power, knowing (here) the law would protect them. Who would voluntarily offer a bribe to get a public contract if they knew they didn’t need to ?

    The average European immigrants (19th/20th C) came here to build a better life for themselves, and turned out to be more productive/ responsible - reason why the south has better social standards.
    Can’t speak for all of Africa, but in most of the west coast countries, specially Nigeria, corruption is a national institution...nothing (official) gets done without cash changing hands.

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 05:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    THE FINAL CHOICE:
    http://www.chargeonline.com.br/php/DODIA//son.jpg

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 10:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    ”I think the problem with a few posters is that they don't bother to inform themselves properly, believe what they want to (based purely on ideology) and refuse to acknowledge facts that go against their political beliefs.”

    It's all too easy to fall into the trap of only seeing things that confirm your beliefs. It's not even conscious, but when I read a headline that fits my worldview, it seems plausible so I believe it, but if I see one that doesn't, it seems more extraordinary so I go and check what really happened. But then if you do find the evidence is against you, it's pretty foolish to pretend it isn't there.

    RE Paulo Maluf; wow. According to Wikipedia, Interpol have issued a red notice for him, to extradite him to the US on charges of conspiracy and criminal possession. And he was governor of SP during the dictatorship, the corruption unhindered by military rule. It says he built an elevated expressway which basically ruined a large part of downtown SP, while no one was able to protest against it due to the military repression, and also started a state oil company that spent US$500m drilling 21 holes and found nothing.

    You're probably right about how the corruption started, but it's not hard to imagine some company offering a bribe if they knew their competitors were going to receive the contract otherwise. Much cheaper to give 100k to some official than cut their price and thus profits by 10m to match a rival's bid.

    What are things like in Nigeria? Is the corruption really that bad? I suppose it was quite a while ago that you were there.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT

    REF: Nigeria

    Nigeria? Well, [not only Nigeria] these are a racketeers' PARADISE - in FACT!

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “It's all too easy to fall into the trap of only seeing things that confirm your beliefs”....if you are mentally lazy and predisposed to believe what suits you....Don't think I'd feel comfortable believing something I had doubts about. Would need to check for myself.

    Re Maluf, he was involved in so much corruption, had even forgotten about PauliPetro. In the course of my work I met him and his son about 20 years ago. Very friendly, typically politician-like, but smart, and hungry for more power. Even his wife was his partner in crime.

    The downtown expressway did in fact deteriorate the area through which it passed, but the area was already pretty shitty before it was built. Today, drivers are only too pleased it's there. Residents, not at all. Most of the downtown area today is quite degraded (which started about 40 years ago when many businesses left town, looking for better areas outside the 'old' centre), thanks to the floating population that have turned it into a pigsty, the beggars and the drug addicts who roam the streets, plus the lack of attention from various administrations. Certain small pockets are still OK, but generally speaking it's become a place you wouldn't visit unless you had to.

    About corruption, I asked who would offer a bribe IF they “didn't have to”...which implies in an honest tender. But today, IMO, now that it's instutionalized, both sides come to expect it.

    I was in Nigeria in the late 70s/early 80s. A pretty disgusting place, but where good money was to be made. Infrastructure wise, terrible, having been largely abandoned after its independence (1960) ; most buildings falling apart, no maintenance whatsoever ; govt services - those that still worked - corrupt. Not only regarding the stealing in government, but also in the government's relations with individuals needing a service. It could get a bit hairy at times, but after a while you got used to it. Nevertheless, I'd describe it as being good experience.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    “Don't think I'd feel comfortable believing something I had doubts about.”

    That's exactly my point. The things you have doubts about are the ones that don't fit your existing beliefs. For example, The Voice claimed that David Cameron said we'd lose 2 million jobs if we left the EU. Because this fit his ideas about what remain campaigners would say, he didn't bother checking. However, it sounded highly unlikely to me, so I checked and found he never did say that, but a certain newspaper had claimed he did.

    And as for Maluf, wow again. If everyone knows he's corrupt, why do they keep voting for him? Have you voted for politicians you know to be corrupt in the past?

    It seemed to be common in the past for city centres to go downhill; now some of them are regenerating and becoming fashionable again. But I imagine having a giant expressway through it means that part of the city is never likely to improve. Who would live there if they had a choice?

    As for the bribe, the answer is the one who is going to lose the tender if it's honest. That's a good reason to try being dishonest, no?

    Hopefully things in Nigeria have improved a bit since the 80s, the infrastructure and the corruption. Seems China has a lot of involvement in Africa these days, but I don't really know if that benefits them or not.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    @DT:

    REF: “Seems China has a lot of involvement in Africa these days, but I don't really know if that benefits them or not”:

    China is making hay while the economic sun is shining on them and Africa is making hay while the deep-rooted corruption is favorable to China. Thus, China+Afterica stand benefitting a lot in a holy matrimony; by making the best of their “Positive Points”.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    ”If everyone knows he's corrupt, why do they keep voting for him? Have you voted for politicians you know to be corrupt in the past?

    Well, he is finished politically so no one is going to vote for him now. With so many parties dividing the votes, not more than a few dozen thousand are needed to get elected to Congress, and with so many ignorant voters, that's easy. There have been very few politicians whom I'd vouch for, so at times it boils down to voting for the least corrupt to try to prevent the most corrupt from getting in. But yes, I voted for Maluf for Mayor of SP (30 yrs ago ?), but before the extent of his corruption was made public....after that, no way. His constant appeals to the STF kept him out of jail for years. Now he's under house arrest because he's 'apparently' very ill (?)

    The people who live in along the path of the expressway are exactly those who don't have a choice. I remember São Paulo in the 60s and it was quite an attractive city, but in the 70s it started to change, and mass migration in the mid-70s/80s did the rest.

    The bribes have reached a point where it's virtually impossible to stop, so reckon what came first, the chicken or the egg, is irrelevant.

    Ex-colleagues of mine in the UK, who still travelled to Nigeria until 2016/17, assure me that Nigeria is still the same sh*thole it was 30 years ago.

    Tend to agree with :o))'s comments.....China is having a field day in Africa, and while the investments will probably have positive effects, there's the other side of the coin where Africa loses control of its own destiny....not that it has been, or would be any better with the Africans in control.

    Apr 25th, 2018 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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