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Montevideo, November 20th 2018 - 11:46 UTC

Want to beat me? Try at the voting booth

Tuesday, July 24th 2018 - 05:39 UTC
Full article 26 comments

By Lula da Silva, former president of Brazil - I have been imprisoned for more than 100 days. Meantime, unemployment is increasing, more and more fathers and mothers are finding themselves unable to support their families, and an absurd pricing policy for fuel caused a truckers' strike that provoked shortages in Brazilian cities. Read full article

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  • Conqueror

    Sorry, Lulu, but you are such an impatient person. Surely as a FORMER president, you believe in law and order? Or is that just your laws and your orders. Anyway, you say that you've been in prison for 100 days. Look on the bright side. Only 4,280 to go. You see, we're all pretty much convinced that you're a crook. And crooks have to pay for their crimes. Frankly, I would have added on another 12 years for foisting Rousseff on the country. Anyway, think of it as a holiday. Lean back, relax, take it easy.

    Jul 25th, 2018 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Conqueror
    “we're all pretty much convinced that you're a crook.”
    Not quite all, as the UNHRC obviously isn't, otherwise they wouldn't have accepted his appeal unless it warranted consideration. At least he will now get the proper legal hearing that every person is entitled too.

    Jul 26th, 2018 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    What the UNHRC thinks about Lula is irrelevant in Brazil....his fate will be decided in and only in Brazil.....the sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll stop feeding us your crap..

    Jul 26th, 2018 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer
    “What the UNHRC thinks about Lula is irrelevant in Brazil.” Makes you liar as you've already claimed this before and been soundly refuted.
    http://en.mercopress.com/2018/07/16/lula-the-only-hope-for-millions-of-brazilians-says-ex-president-dilma-rousseff/comments#comment490501
    “Whatever conclusion the idiots at the UNHRC may reach, is irrelevant.”
    “As Brazil is a state party to the UN’s First Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, any decision by the HRC is legally binding.”
    http://www .brasilwire.com/un-investigates-lulas-imprisonment/

    Jul 26th, 2018 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Yes , I have said this before...in reply to your stupid insistence that the UN will get the toad released...As it hasn't happened yet - and very unlikely will - how can you say what I have said has “been soundly refuted” ?? 'tá loco ?
    Brazil can be party to whatever you want it to be, but it is not the UN that runs the Judiciary in Brazil.

    Jul 26th, 2018 - 09:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer
    “it is not the UN that runs the Judiciary in Brazil.”
    “As Brazil is a state party to the UN’s First Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, any decision by the HRC is legally binding.”
    Brazil can't have their cake and eat it too. If the HRC rules that Lula's legal rights have been trampled on, then he will become a 'cause célèbre' as 'wrongfully convicted' 'prisoner of conscience'. Brazil will then become known as a human rights violator, and her officials will be subjected to the embarrassment of trying to defend the indefensible on the world stage. From other governments and HR's activists and organisations.

    Jul 26th, 2018 - 10:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @TH
    Like the UK and Sweden are known, over Assange? Didn't make no difference to us.

    @JB
    RE your comment on “US Congress furious...”

    I don't believe the PT introduced the government to organised crime, I think it was always there, since the return to democracy and probably before. And the FdSP seems a bit crazy, but I don't think Lula's ambition was to turn Brazil into Venezuela. He never tried to copy the things Chavez did to consolidate power, like rewriting the constitution, changing the rules in order to pack the supreme court, closing media outlets and later trying to remove the term limits in the constitution that he created himself. And anyway, how does stealing billions help the FdSP? It all went to individual politicians.

    Our dodgy pension fund directors weren't trying to gain bigger profits for the beneficiaries either, they were basically stealing from the fund to give huge payouts to themselves and their friends and families, or sometimes to prop up the rest of the business and conceal problems. They aren't appointed by the government, but are a bunch of cronies who sit on each other's boards and vote to give each other higher and higher pay.

    You get less pension each year because you retired early? I can see the problem, 8% is way too low a discount. I'd estimate you should be getting between 15% and 30% less (can't be sure exactly, because it would be based on your life expectancy at 61, which will be different to life expectancy at birth). If you retired at 55 it should be maybe as little as half the full amount. Is there no minimum age at all currently? And would you have worked to 65 if the discount was bigger?

    Need to go now, I'm away for the weekend again; don't know if I'll get chance to reply. I want to get there before moonrise so I can see the lunar eclipse, it's a great viewing spot. Are you going to watch it? I was surprised to find that the moon rises (and the sun sets) only 40 minutes later where you are compared to here.

    Jul 27th, 2018 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DT
    “... over Assange? Didn't make no difference to us.” The difference is that he has not been convicted under a 'political soviet' styled trial. Under UK laws there wouldn't have been sufficient evidence to even go to trial.

    Jul 27th, 2018 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “..don't believe PT introduced govt to orgnized crime…”. Believe what u will, but absolutely no party b4 PT ever got even close to such an intricate criminal network in govt, ‘n exert such a deep ‘n extensive control over it…with cronies in all key positions, they ensured full cooperation down the line.
    You’re right, politicians in previous govts always disputed Ministries/strategic positions but personal ambition was far more modest than the PT’s….more like ‘steal a bit here ‘n there’ when the opportunity arose, instead of forming an organization to make it happen.

    “don't think Lula's ambition was to turn Brazil into VZ”…Of course not, not literally - his ambition was to make the PT so powerful (in practice, a one-party system), that with the stolen billions it could buy Congress again (1st attempt -‘mensalão’ - failed), ‘n dictate the rules. Once in firm control, alter the Constitution to allow indefinite re-election (like Chavez, Maduro, Evo Morales), the 1st step towards implementing his long term project (FdSP), with help of other S. American left-wing parties, where he would be the “capo”…but the Lavajato screwed his plans b4 he consolidated his grip on power. Four months ago Lula complained, saying literally tt he had been “too soft” when appointing judges to the STF...sound similar to VZ ? The billions were an essential part of FdSP implementation : to buy goodwill thru financing projects in LatAm ( Odebrecht /Arg, Peru, Bolivia, VZ, Cuba) and bribing presidents. No doubt some $ filtered down.

    If full pension were 100, I got 92…adjusted yearly (impacted by lower-than-inflation increases).
    The ‘’scales” mentioned, are to adjust early retirement to life expectancy. Currently no minimum age, just 180 contributions, so if you started work at 15, worked 15 years (180 contributions), you could retire on a shitty, highly discounted pension, for +/- 50 yrs.
    If I’d waited ‘til 65, would’ve recvd ‘full’ pension. Forgot abt the moon… good wkend.

    Jul 27th, 2018 - 10:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DT
    “... over Assange? Didn't make no difference to us.”
    “Working Group on Arbitrary Detention is ...opinions derives from the collaboration by States in the procedure, the adversarial nature of is findings and also by the authority given to the WGAD by the UN Human Rights Council.”
    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17013
    Is not endued with any authority that is legally binding, as no nation has signed any protocol agreeing to be bound by them, unlike the UNHRC.

    Jul 27th, 2018 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Thanks to the masses - the Vultures ARE flocking:
    https://youtu.be/iap9OBEB8eQ

    Jul 28th, 2018 - 11:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    By Lula, prison inmate – “been imprisoned for more than 100 days”….true, ‘n hopefully for another 13,000.

    “Meantime, unemployment is increasing”…Lie. Unemployment is stationary. Hasn’t improved due to uncertainty caused by the Oct election…tks to Lula.

    “people burned from cooking w/alcohol increasing due high price of natural cooking gas for poor families”…Unfortunate - occurring in a few towns in Lula’s home state. Cooking with alcohol in cans is really stupid…why not resort to burning wood, or charcoal ?

    “Brazilian children being separated from their families in the US”…while not nice, how many children ? a dozen ?…and even then, because the parents decided to leave Brazil after Lula screwed it.

    “Embraer, high-technology company built over decades, sold for a low price that even the market is shocked”… Lie. The Embraer/Boeing venture is a new company, leaving the ‘old’ Embraer intact.

    “An illegitimate government rushing through its last months trying to liquidate as many nat'l assets ‘n as much sovereignty as it can”…Pure BS . Not illegitimate. It was Lula who put Temer on Dilma’s ticket in 2010/14; and trying to sell off State-run cos that lose billions, ‘n inviting foreign oil cos to explore the sub-salt, because PB alone, doesn’t have the capacity to.

    “Court Justice C. Lebbos decided I cannot give interviews or record videos”…so what ? no inmate is allowed to.

    “I'm reminded of when the President of the STF said “shut your mouth, you have already died”… Lie, never occurred.

    “former Heads of State around the world have recognized the absurdity of the trial that condemned me”…sure , all his stupid, left-wing friends.

    “have already lost 3 presidential races - 1989/94/98 - and have always 'respected' the outcome”…so ? what alternative was there ?

    “apartment that “was attributed” instead of presenting proof of ownership” ..…'ownership', only “attributed” due a mere bureacratic technicality.

    unfortunately not enough space to list all his lies..

    Jul 28th, 2018 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    How do you know what was really going on in government before the PT? It's not like they would advertise the stealing. And do you really  think Congress would let Lula or anyone consolidate power in such a way, even if they got a lot of money out of it? Don't some of them want power at least as much as money, and besides, if they take over they can steal it themselves anyway.

    I would say if you retire early then it should be scaled so you get the same amount in total as if you retired on time. But suppose the average pensioner lives to 81, if you work to 65, you'll get 100% for 16 years, which is 16 x 100 = 1600, but if you can retire at 61 with 92% of the full pension, you'll receive that for 20 years, for a total of 20 x 92 = 1840, much higher. It's not surprising the government is running out of money. Anyway, I do agree it needs reform, because no matter what was promised they can't pay what they can't afford. Also, being able to retire at 30 is just ridiculous.

    I tried to watch the eclipse but it was cloudy, and it's raining now. Looks like the heatwave is over. Typical that it waits till I'm on holiday, but it's nice to see my old friends anyway.

    Jul 28th, 2018 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    “'ownership', only “attributed” due a mere bureacratic technicality.” Whereas, the evidence is conclusive as to the truth.
    ”Former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva’s defense proved today (04/02), by means of 3 expert reports drafted by national and international experts in computer science and accounting, that the electronic material analyzed by the Federal Police in the report submitted on 02/23/2018 (Criminal Proceeding No. 5063130-17.2016.4.04.7000) cannot be considered authentic according to the […]
    The expert report issued by the Federal Police on Friday (02/23) didn’t confirm that there is any document linking former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva to the contracts with Petrobras, let alone to any property allegedly given to Lula Institute or to him, as opposed to what the prosecution says (Criminal Proceeding no. 5063130-17.2016.4.04.7000/PR). […]
    We inserted today in the record of the Motion for Impeachment of Document No. 5043015-38.2017.4.04.7000/PR, which is pending before the 13th Federal Criminal Court of Curitiba, the “Preliminary Expert Analysis” elaborated by the renowned forensic expert Celso M. R. Del Picchia, — Senior Fellow at the Association of Judicial Experts of the State of São […]”
    http://www.averdadedelula.com.br/?s=forensic&x=0&y=0

    Jul 28th, 2018 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “How do you know what was really going on in government before the PT?”

    Perhaps because I've always been very interested in what goes on and closely followed politics and the economy ? And because unbelievably, in 2007, a corrupt politician - perhaps thinking things had (finally) gone too far...with the 'mensalão' - decided to spill the beans on himself, and the others ? plus the irrefutable fact that no other govt (in recent history) has ever driven Brazil into the ground like the PT did, especially after the favorable scenario it inherited (2003/4), and the reasons that caused it, becoming painfully clear later on ?

    IMO, Congressional members as whole, will allow just about anything, provided they are rewarded and don't have their life-styles threatened...and in a system where they are 'protected' why wouldn't they ? a lot of the top-dogs, although “opposition” to each other, make deals to allow the other in now, so that they can take over later...sort of keeping the bench warm for each other...and perhaps the guy who denounced the mensalão, realized Lula and the PT's 30 year project for power (clear by FdSP) did not include the other parties...who knows ?

    Retirement here is scaled - if you retire at an early age, and/or with fewer contributions than the minimums needed for full pension, you'll pay the price. I fully agree with your math : the reason why I retired earlier (61 i/o 65) because the tota ldifference I'd receive, retiring at 61, was more than the additional 8% I'd receive if I waited until 65.
    Don't think many people do the math, neither do I think that early retirement, at 61 for ex., is the cause of the deficit...it's people retiring at 45, 50, and the amount of fraud...besides exorbitant retirement packages for (dozens of 1000s of) politicians, 'n other privileges, a recent investigation showed that almost 50 % of benefits conceded for ill health, were fraudulent.
    Managed to catch the end of the eclipse.

    @TH
    'averdadelula', again ?

    Jul 30th, 2018 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    Yeah aren't forensics a bitch, they put your fanciful narrative to bed. Thus, revealing how the most conclusive evidence was ignored on four occasionsso that Moro could continue in his make believe court.

    Jul 30th, 2018 - 04:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    “Yeah aren't forensics a bitch, ....”

    So you are prepared to believe, hook, line and sinker that the 'forensics' presented by Lula's defense prove the toad's innocence ?
    So I ask you, who handpicked these 'impartial' experts, and who paid for their 'expert' reports ? So suspicious that cannot be taken seriously....fool yourself if you want.

    Jul 30th, 2018 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    JB
    ”So you are prepared to believe, ...that the 'forensics' presented by Lula's defense prove ...innocence ?
    They are also officers of the court. If what they proffered was deliberately false the judge could lay a complaint before the bar, which could cause them to be disbarred.
    Other than your opinion, you present no evidence from the prosecution that rebuts these these four active http contentions.

    Jul 30th, 2018 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Okay, you were following politics, but you only know what the newspapers report, right? If the politicians kept it quiet, then it would never be reported. Or do you have some inside information on what is going on in Congress?

    I looked up the guy who spilled the beans on the mensalão, Roberto Jefferson. The English Wikipedia says he and his party were key defenders of Collor while the latter was under investigation for influence peddling, and that he was later investigated for bribery. Then: “In 2005, Jefferson became involved in a corruption scandal related to the Correios, the Brazilian postal administration. Facing a congressional inquiry related to his actions, Jefferson retaliated by exposing a cash-for-votes scheme, where he claimed congressmen were paid monthly sums to in exchange for votes supporting president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, in what became known as the Mensalão scandal.” Certainly doesn’t sound like he had an attack of conscience. Incidentally, is Jefferson his surname or what? Wikipedia lists two surnames and that isn’t either of them.

    You’re probably right about ordinary members of Congress, but what about the ambitious ones? The fact they are always switching parties, or forming their own to have a chance at more power, shows money is not all they are interested in.

    “I fully agree with your math”

    It's clearly a broken system, because it encourages people to retire early. Retiring at 45 and 50 is going to screw the country doubly, because even if they only receive a tiny pension, they are no longer working and being productive. I'm sure the fraud doesn't help, but with an aging population the demographics alone becomes a problem. So... if the government reformed pensions, and announced that from next year you would only receive 80% of the full pension instead of 92% (80 x 20 = 1600, same as you would have got by retiring on time), would you be happy to accept the change, for the good of Brazil?

    Jul 31st, 2018 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    TH
    You obviously consider yourself intelligent, yet you believe what you 'want' to....you ignore the prosecution's proof, which you haven't even bothered to look at, but firmly believe Lula's defense....AFAIC, your beliefs are motivated by ideology and emotion.

    Talking of deliberately false, in another case, when Moro asked Lula's defense to produce the rental receipts of the flat beside his, in SBCampo, (because the 'official' owner, Glauco Costa Marques, had testified that he had never received one penny in rent from Lula - or his wife - in the 6 years it had been allegedly 'rented' by Lula), Lula's defense, weeks later produced a few receipts which were prepared in a hurry, for Glauco C.Marques to sign (while in hospital), but the gimmick was uncovered...instead of insisting they were legitimate, what did Lula's defense do ? it handed over a 'new' batch of receipts to the court, without explaining why the first one had been presented....strange ? and, as if that weren't enough, the 2nd batch was also false, after forensics proved that the age of the ink used to print them was too recent for the receipts to have been prepared and signed prior to 2017....Lula and his defense appear to be forgerers...and bad ones, at that.

    Jul 31st, 2018 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I replied above, think our posts crossed in the intertubes...

    Jul 31st, 2018 - 04:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Papers are the ‘main’ source, but not the only one: TV interviews w/ politicians, their actions (which speak louder than words), + an enormous accumulation of information after years of observation. The press reported on anything it caught on to, but if it went anywhere, was another story ;I’ve already mentioned, “organized” crime in the Fed govt, to the extent it tentacles reached during the PT govts, was unheard of b4 the PT. Also, prior to the PT, the press wasn't gagged (Lula tried to 'n failed). Backstage deals in Congress usually leak out, but it’s the investigations (if any) that decide the outcome. You read about corruption, you were aware of it, 'n that was it. Jefferson’s a career politician ‘n supporter of Collor (impeached ‘92); the corruption & influence-peddling that went on (through Collor’s right-hand man, Paulo Farias - later assassinated w/ his girlfriend) was more by extorting big biz, than by stealing/bribes in overpriced government contracts; Days ago I mentioned the hole – US$ 35 bill - left in State Co pension funds, of which “Postalis” is one...maybe now you realize why State Cos are SO important in politics. Jefferson is the surname he uses…if his real name, wouldn’t know, but nothing to do with “Thomas” ; If his actions were the result of having an attack of conscience, can’t really know, but they sure threw sh*t in the fan. Ambitious politicians can be motivated by 2 things : the desire to help the country, or to help themselves. Being most likely the latter, the higher up they climb, the more influence, the closer to the money.

    The pension system’s screwed only because it’s obsolete ‘n permits absurd situations, reason why, whether people like it or not, it has to be reformed if to survive.

    My retirement obeyed the rules, ‘n in my case, as others, I’ve already “acquired” the right to what I receive, while those still to retire have only acquired ‘partial’ rights, and the conditions to acquire 100% are being adjusted. No other way.

    Aug 01st, 2018 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Hmm, if Jefferson hadn't spilled the beans on the Mensalão, do you think it would have come out some other way? Because if not, how do you know a similar scheme wasn't happening before?

    Anyway, also according to Wikipedia, Jefferson was sentenced to 7 years after a 1/3 reduction for making a deal, and he was pardoned by Barroso in March 2016. How many other politicians and businessmen do you think will be pardoned if they are eventually convicted? And will Lula ever be among them? (If he is, it won't be until long after the election.)

    And, I don't mean that politicians want power necessarily to help the country. Some people like being in control and giving the orders. The PMDB didn't just want money in order to support the PT, did they? They demanded positions in government too, up to Vice-President, who would normally be of the same party as the President since they might have to take over.

    I didn't think you'd be so keen to give up part of your own pension for the good of the country. ;) But it seems we mostly agree after all; I was saying pensions are more like a right than a benefit because you pay in and are promised something in return, while you seemed to be saying the opposite before, that they are not like a savings account but just a promise from the government, one they can change at any time. I agree the government shouldn't take away the rights that people have already acquired, but only change the future conditions. But it still seems unfair that I will have to work longer than my parents, and probably get a smaller pension in the end, and the difference will be even more stark in Brazil.

    Aug 01st, 2018 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Obviously, if a corruption scheme never sees the light of day, people won't know about it but, when it becomes so deep /extensive, to the point of virtually bankrupting Brazil's largest co.- and an oil company at that (pretty hard task) - and producing enormous fiscal deficits, it can't be hidden. It's notorious tt corruption's always been present in all governments in Brazil, but there were no signs as obvious as, or consequences, as those under Lula ; besides, until a few years before the Lula era, Brazil did not generate “billions” of dollars, something which, when it started to (mid 90s, after 'plano Real'), opened up a whole lot of new possibilities (to steal more).
    Penal law here has a ridiculous rule, that after serving 1/6th of your sentence (or less in some cases), you can get out on probation, because of 'good' behaviour while incarcerated...a bloody joke. Most imprisoned executives, as well as the few politicians, will most likely be benefited by the same rule, but in Lua's case....currently serving a 12 yr sentence...could be out in 2...but by then, probably be convicted, successively, in each of the other 6 federal charges he faces, so if he gets out, he'll be locked up again...and again. Sergio Cabral, Rio's ex-governor, currently serving a total of 80 years for several convictions (stealing, laundering money), with more to come, will probably never get out.
    No Brazilian politician wants power just to give orders. Sure, the PMDB first of all wanted 'in' to the government...it would give them access to the billionaire Ministerial budgets, and the chance to wield power. Temer was not fm Dilma's party, but being her VP was the condition to not impeach Lula. Here it's quite normal for Prez / VP being different parties.

    It's not a matter of giving up 'part' of my pension, which ain't all that wonderful, but one of social justice - for those who are retired, and those still to retire..to actually get a pension.
    Reality changes, so must rules.

    Aug 01st, 2018 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I guess a good question would be when did the mensalão and lava jato schemes start, and when were they discovered? If they had not been going for long, that suggests they are hard to keep hidden. And if they are known to have been operating for years before discovery, then it can't be so hard.

    How do you mean Brazil didn't generate billions? The economy was really that much smaller in the 90s?

    And seriously, 1/6th of the sentence? Is that only for non-violent crimes like corruption, or also for things like murder?

    Okay, giving orders was the wrong way to put it, but some people want power more than money (and if you have the former it's not hard to get the latter). People like that wouldn't go along with a project to give the PT single party rule, no matter how much they were bribed.

    Prez / VP from diff parties is a terrible idea, as we've seen. If some PT person was VP, then no one would have called Dilma's impeachment a coup, and there would not have been such a drastic change in policy afterwards. VP isn't expected to be identical to the President, but voters should get the policies they expected.

    Not sure what you mean by social justice. If they leave the reforms too long, I guess they really might have to cut existing pensions as well as future ones, in order to balance the books. But I assume you don't only live on your government pension?

    Aug 01st, 2018 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    The “mensalão”, in the format that gave it its name, started around 2004 ; The “petrolão”, investigated by the “Lavajato”, started in 2009, while the 'mensalão' trials were underway....just goes to show the confidence of (those in power, in) Congress that the law couldn't, and wouldn't touch them.

    While PB was semi-privatized, its managmnt became professional 'n competent...when Lula got in (2003) and saw the advantage of getting it back to state control (2007) that's when the really big corruption started.

    Before the “plano Real” (mid '94), Brazil was plagued by very high inflation, which made foreign trade difficult, Brazil's agribusiness was no where near what it became in the late 90s (becoming responsible for most of the superavit in foreign trade), industrial production carried on without any significant progress....most things existed, but on a far smaller scale...rather millions i/o billions.
    1/6th of the sentence....murder as well, in most cases. Can't forget that quite a few members of Congress are lawyers, (with a tendency to be crooks) so they word legislation in such a way as to protect themselves...what that may mean to society as a whole, is irrelevant... to them.

    Re power, for the sake of power, you might be right in some cases, but here they go hand-in-hand...typical example : SPs ex-governor, Maluf...extremely wealthy, all powerful (before being convicted) and as corrupt as hell...now under house-arrest as about 85 yrs old and ill).
    That's why I said Jefferson, besides being bribed, may not have liked the PTs 30 yr project for total power.

    Even in the OCT elections, what you see most are coalitions being formed to try to ensure being elected, and Prez/VPs all fm different parties. Politics is the name of the game, not good governance.
    Right, if Temer had been PT, everything would be 'great'.
    By social justice I mean the system treating everyone 'equally' or, 'according' to what you put into it.
    My pension covers only basic expenses.

    Aug 02nd, 2018 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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