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Montevideo, November 18th 2018 - 06:03 UTC
Brazil's Workers Party, PT, said on Saturday that it's sticking with former president Lula da Silva as its presidential candidate even though the electoral court has thrown him off the ballot for an election just five weeks away. Read full article
“The people are sovereign regarding the party's candidate. And that candidate is Lula,” Haddad said.
Pure, unadulterated bullsh*t. The 'people' are not 'sovereign', nor have the legal power, to pardon a convicted criminal.
For what it's worth, other than trying to keep the toad in the limelight, they might as well try to put the PCC leaders on the ballot......might even be more reasonable, considering 1) they never stole from me, and owhere near to what the PT did, and 2) they are responsible for far less deaths than those caused by the lack of a decent public health service...which deteriorated thanks to our lousy politicians, who are never held accountable.
Good for the PT for defying the anti-democratic moves of the powers that have kept Brazil one of the most unequal countries in Latin America.
Brazilians have already spoke about Lula da Silva as a proven leader who took millions out of poverty--something no Brazilian government succeeded before him.
The sbirs of the power may attempt to explain how the judiciary did not have any alternative but to keep Lula out of race, but many in the world know what's going on in Latin America and very particularly in Brazil is nothing but lawfare - the new strategy to keep the elites in power that has replaced the tanks and the troops.
The Brazilian people and Lula deserve real justice.
Good for the PT for defying the anti-democratic moves of the powers that have kept Brazil......
Those powers which you now refer to have not changed since Lula was in power....what has changed is that Lula was found guilty of passive bribery and money laundering....but of course, as long as he managed to keep the lid on his coruption, those 'powrs' were wonderful and democratic.....now that he's behind bars, they are not....depends where you are sitting, and the toad is sitting in a cell.
who took millions out of poverty--....THAT is UNproven....i've asked you before but you never reply...where are all those millions now ? I suppose you are going to tell me that the crisis (starting to take it's toll in 2013, reaching its apex in 2015...all under the PT), is FHC's fault, or even Temer's, who hadn't even taken over yet...Pls explain.
The only thing that is keeping Lula out of the race is the fact he is a filthy little crook, and most Brazilians don't want a crook in the presidency....and just fyi, the 'elites' have always been the same.....only difference is that Lula joined them, stole like hell, was caught, and went to jail.
Lula deserves real justice....right, 'real' justice would be to throw him into a dungeon and throw the key away, not allow him to keep screwing the country from his cell.
I have to disagree with you there, Jack. Surveys show most Brazilians DO want a crook in the presidency. He could run the country from his jail cell, the drug lords manage it fine.
OK, you have a point.
Contn of Arg turnounts ..
They were 50/50 cargo/pax ships, doing the S. America / UK route ; 60 passengers with magnificent accommodations - cabins , dining rooms, lounges, library, pool, deck space. Getting up early then, wasn’t a problem. Back then I had one passport (ARG), today 4. Dozens of millions still give more importance to carnival etc, than knowing who their preferred candidate is. Until the people, as a whole, become more educated, politicians will keep on having a field day.
If not mistaken, the protests started as the result of a combination of the last military president (Figueiredo) giving signs that the military wanted out, and a Congressman taking that lead to demand direct elections (for prez). The younger people adhered, and two years later, the civilians were back in. I remember at the time, one of the big generals saying something to the effect of “we’re giving back power, but it won’t be 20 years before the civilians screw it up again”…how true.
Yeah, terrorists have a distinct advantage over those who fight them….they have no rules except theirs, have no limits ‘n have the advantage of surprise…that’s why generally speaking, although people don’t like having their actions or communications being monitored, it’s the only way to prevent attacks.
You got the tail end of the cold war, with Ronald Reagan provoking good ole Gorbachev, to do what he had to. It worked.
What happened soon after in Yugoslavia was nasty, and in Russia, to a point to be expected – the system may have changed, but those in power didn’t.
The Cuban crisis indeed kept the world’s attention…no one knew how it would end, and were afraid…in Brazil people were also concerned with the effects of radiation, speculating whether the wind could bring it as far south as Brazil. Other than those moments, when you were reminded that the ‘sh*t could happen, and hoped it wouldn’t, you took it in yr stride, and business went on as usual
REF: the crisis - starting to take it's toll in 2013, reaching its apex in 2015...all under the PT:
True - nobody can argue that the crisis [not counting the mounting scandals] is a Fake-News! ALL under the PT-Rule of +/- 15 years: 8 years [Lulla] + 6 years [Dilma]!
Before the PT came into power, the economy wasn't exactly in it's pink of health. But towards the end [of PT-Power] - just before the election, in spite of the appearance of the cracks, Dilma was boasting of The Hypothetical Economic Progress. Lo & Behold, right after her winning, she changed the tune saying that there is an economic crisis.
Simplifying; during the +/- 15 years of PT-Power, the economy went from bad to BUST!
However, it's truly remarkable that in spite of the above-mentioned facts; a vast number of the ignorant majority still expects miracles out of PT!
Four passports! I suppose you need them, working for the CIA Counter Terrorism Unit. ;) And does that mean when you played rugby for Brazil against Argentina, you had only an Arg. passport? Lol.
Sounds pretty cool getting to travel on those ships. The best I managed as a child was once getting the overnight ferry to Holland with my family. Since I was young, I was impressed by all the gold railings and mirrors, and we were lucky enough to get a cabin with a porthole on the way there so I was able to see Hoek van Holland as soon as I woke up (my first foreign country, and it looked exactly like the port we had left). My parents were never great travellers.
Re the end of the military government, it does sound a little like the end of communism, in that the leaders signalled they were willing to step back, and then people started demanding more. Eventually the momentum became unstoppable.
Yeah, terrorists have a big advantage, and it's impossible to prevent all attacks. I think our police are doing a decent job for the most part. Has there been any terrorism in Brazil since the return to democracy? I know there was that AMIA attack in Argentina.
Suppose Brazil is far enough away you could hope not to be too much affected by a nuclear war. In the UK, not so much. Recently I was shown a leaflet from the 70s detailing what would happen if there was a nuclear attack on Leicester, it had a map with rings showing different degrees of damage. Something like this:
Anyway, AFAIK if there had been a full scale nuclear exchange there would not be much UK left, but of course people still had to get on with their lives and couldn't be worrying all the time.
And does that mean when you played rugby for Brazil against Argentina, you had only an Arg. passport? Lol.
Yes. But for the rugby it made no difference. In 1966, I was picked to represent Brazil in the South American Athletics championship, but was chopped when the organizers found out I was Argentine...didn't always work out. (should've used my British passport ...)
My parents weren't really into travelling, for the sake of just getting away, more due to the desire to visit family....and as the travel was a company perk, why not ?
Terrorism in Brazil, as seen in the US, EU and Asia, no....but if you consider the death toll by other means, it's probably worse.
In a nuclear attack, the only positive side to it - if there is one - is that the end would be quick....
It's a shame you didn't get to compete in the athletics. That would have been the time when Brazilian citizenship would be useful, but I suppose it would have taken too long. Was the rugby match the same year?
We travelled to see family as well, but only in the UK so it was just driving. Your parents must have been pretty adventurous, working in different countries.
The death toll is much worse in Brazil. In the UK 36 people were killed by terrorists in 2017, while in Brazil 175 people were murdered per *day*. For another comparison, on a road near me there is a sign saying there were 47 deaths in accidents between January and July. (Kinda ironic, Isis can't succeed in causing as much death and suffering as just one minor A road.)
One of my friends is flying back from SP today, where he went for work. He said people kept warning him about dangerous parts of the city to avoid, and he didn't leave the hotel except to go to the office or dinner with colleagues. It's sad, surely it's possible to do some sightseeing? I wish they'd send me there, but with my job it's very unlikely.
Re the nuclear attack, it's only quick if you're near ground zero. Dying of radiation poisoning isn't fun at all. There was a nuclear accident in Brazil that killed 4 people that way, you probably heard about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident
rugby match the same year? No, the rugby was in '74.
My father only worked in Argentina and Brazil....our coming to Brazil was the result of a promotion.
Your friend took the warnings very seriously by the look of it....if he'd just kept away from certain areas, and not walked around the streets at night, which would've been easy to do, he could have gone to see the sights...which aren't all that many.
Dying of anything isn't fun, but I remember the 1987 case, in Goainia. Cesium 137, discarded illegally in a rubbish dump contaminated /killed a few people.
our coming to Brazil was the result of a promotion.
It's weird to think something that made such a huge difference to your life was almost chance. But I guess that's true of everything really.
To be fair to my friend, he was working most of the time. What are the sights in SP? I'm guessing cracolandia isn't on the list.
The UK had a nasty accident with our first ever reactors (part of the nuclear bomb project) . They were air cooled and had graphite moderators - graphite is flammable. You can probably guess what happened. Bloody stupid if you ask me. Luckily no one was killed but they reckon the release of radioactive iodine caused 240 additional cancer cases.
...something that made such a huge difference to your life was almost chance... true, and things could have taken other directions as well...after 6 years here, he was offered a higher post in either S.Africa or the UK.....he preferred to carry on here.
Sights in São Paulo ? to see the city from the top of the Edificio Itália (42 floors), in downtown SP ; a quick drive-by 'cracolandia' during the daytime, to get a real sense of what's going on there, the Museum of Ipiranga (now closed for reform til 2022, but just to see the building and its garden), which was the residence of D.Pedro I after he declared independence ; Ibirapuera Park (inaugurated in 1954, commemorating the 4th centenary of the foundation of São Paulo, and covering an area of abt 150 hectares); the patio do Colégio (the first jesuit school and the original mark 'zero'), Av. Paulista (the financial centre of SP, and Brazil); the underground (works pretty well and is relatively well-kept; a drive around the 'chique' neighbourhoods not too far from the centre, a couple of Shopping Centers (the Iguatemi, the 1st and one of the luxurious ones, and the Shopping Cidade de São Paulo, the newest, extremely luxurious and very expensive, with all the int'l griffes); the Marginal - the expressway that circles the city, following the Tietê River; The University of SP campus in the west part of the city etc.. OR, take a helicopter ride to see it all, from above.
Just as well Brazil, besides hydroelectric power, is investing in aeoloic and solar power...the last two, up in the NE, where the winds and sunlight occur year round.
I guess it wasn't so random then, your dad must have liked Brazil if he decided to stay. South Africa seems to have even worse problems with crime and the economy than Brazil, and some very dodgy politicians in charge, lately.
I'll make sure and tell my friend what to see if he's sent to SP again. At least he got to go to some good restaurants. He said the traffic was bad but the people and food were nice, and he ate a lot of different cuts of beef.
What are griffes? I googled and it said it was French for claws, but then it also said label, so does it mean designer brands?
Speaking of holidays, I went to Whitby yesterday and saw the famous whalebone arch and ruined abbey, it was pretty cool. There was some kind of event on so there were lots of people dressed as pirates.
Brazil must be a much better place for solar power than the UK, although you do sometimes see fields full of solar panels here. Apart from the fact it's often cloudy, the sun doesn't reach a high angle at this latitude so it's pretty useless in winter. We're better off for wind but of course it's not reliable, and although wind turbines look elegant enough in ordinary countryside, it seems a shame to put them in wilder landscapes. Is aeoloic what wind power is called in Brazil? It makes it sound much cooler.
Brazil in the mid 50's was already the 'country of the future'....probably why he decided to stay.
There's a beef restaurant which imo, has the best meat in SP....called Dr. Tche, La Parilla de la Villa.....owned and run by a 'gaucho' who is the barbecuer, and knows his trade. Just a suggestion : yr friend should order the 'bife de chorizo' (NOT 'sausage', as many think), medium-rare, with the 'soufflé' potato chips.
Griffes...maybe I spelled it wrong...it's the int'l luxury brands....probably won't appeal to someone who has acess to it all in the UK. Perhaps the best way to see SPaulo (if not from the air), would be to ask the hotel concierge to indicate a reliable taxi driver to do the rounds for a fixed price.
Right, aeolic = wind. From Aiolos, the Greek God of wind . Reminds me of one of Dilma's famous cock-ups....During a speech, speaking of energy generated by wind farms, she said something to the effect that this type of energy was better, 'because you could stock-up wind....'
It makes it sound much cooler....a pun ?
I wasn't making a pun on purpose, I never heard either word before, but looks like I guessed correctly. How was she planning to stock up on wind? Seal it up in a bag to be released when needed?
RE your comment on the India space mission story:
Sure, but since Lula didn't confess it's just a hypothetical. Point is I can think of way more convincing evidence than what they found. And another thing, they have investigated Lula plenty, didn't they find any bank accounts in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands? One triplex doesn't seem like much compared to the amounts that have gone missing.
if they are paying bribes, it's obvious there's someone at the other end receiving them
Probably quite a bit was used to bribe the other parties; we know that was happening. And more was used to pay for campaigning in elections. We don't know exactly who took money for themselves and how much.
And since we don't know how much time was knocked off for what information we don't know if the plea deals were coercive or not. I don't think info given as part of a deal is truly reliable, so it needs independent confirmation. And wasn't Joesley only caught because he accidentally sent the wrong tape to prosecutors? He might have got away with it otherwise. If he was withholding the truth to use it when necessary, it might explain why he recorded the conversation.
Re proof obtained illegally, was there a particular case you were thinking of? It's obvious following the rules can sometimes lead to bad results, but that's usually the case with any laws. The alternatives are to get rid of them altogether, eg the police can search anything at any time without a warrant, or to give a lot of discretion to judges, which might not be a good idea in a country with corruption problems.
Dilma probably thought wind could be stocked…until she heard the laughter….or, was she thinking of farts ?
Re the triplex, does the fact tt his wife (‘n son) met up with Leo Pinheiro many times (2014) to discuss/supervise the reform mean nothing to you ? all corroborated by e-mails, witnesses, docs, photos (?). When you join dozens of small pieces of evidence, all leading to the same conclusion, you get the full picture.
Lula will NEVER confess to anything. He loves to play the victim ‘n be seen as a martyr. He’s so self-centered, he believes he’s the be-all ‘n end-all of everything, so much so that even now, he refuses to step down as presidential candidate, regardless of the damage it's doing to his party ‘n Haddad's image, who everyday appears more 'n more like what he is (2nd choice).
Lula has all his assets (except his SBCampo flat) in other people’s names…the triplex (was in OAS’s name), the Atibaia home (in his son’s partner’s name), the flat beside his, in the SBCamp Condo (in Glauco C. Marques’ name, cousin of his ‘very’ good friend ‘n lawyer Roberto Teixeira), the land for the ‘Instituto Lula’ in SBCampo (Odebrecht’s name), the balance of R$ 23 million in an a/ct administered by Odebrecht’s bribe dept (leftover of the R$ 300 million put there at his disposal, end of 2010, by Emilio Odebrecht).
US$ 2,5 billion was drained from PB during Lula’s presidency - went mainly to PT, PMDB, PP and the pockets of politicians…d’you really believe this went on under his nose, for 10 years, without his knowledge, despite testimony of dozens of executives to the contrary ? Lula, like many, preferred ‘gifts’, as less obvious than bank a/c’s .
You seem to prefer to focus on what we don’t know, rather than what we do…why ? Info given as part of a deal, only translates into time redction, IF relevant.
Joesley knew he was alrdy under investigation (most crooks do) and indeed thought, ‘if I go down, I’ll take ‘em with me.
If it's PROOF, how can it be ILLEGAL?
d’you really believe this went on under his nose, for 10 years, without his knowledge
Nah, there's no way he didn't know what was going on. But he did seem to keep it at arm's length rather than getting involved himself, same with the 'gifts' vs bank accounts. Did he actually live in this house in Atibaia, or was it like the triplex? And how was the flat next to his anything to do with him? Also, if nothing is in his name, what is he supposed to have spent the R$277 on?
You seem to prefer to focus on what we don’t know, rather than what we do…why ?
Because if you only know half the story, you can get a very misleading picture. Knowing the details of the plea deals would be essential for me to decide how much to trust the testimony. Similarly knowing how the police got hold of details of Odebrecht's accounts, and did Odebrecht employees have any chance to doctor them first?
Lula was too smart to get his hands dirty, always doing things by proxy...gave him plausible deniability.
Yday, Palocci (1 of his 2 closest accomplices – the other,Dirceu) revealed more about Lula - he said that when the subsalt oil reserves were (re)discovered (2006), Lula became ‘delirious’ with the amount to revenue he imagined would roll in, and from that point on became more hands-on (greedy), actually participating in a few bribe negotiations.
Re the Atibaia home (bought end 2010, by Lulinha’s partners) following was found (by the Feds) at Lula’s SBC flat : 1) draft of a private sales deed transferring the property from Lulinha’s partners, to Lula, 2) bills paid by Odeb/OAS regarding building material ‘n construction svcs, and objects found at the home, totalling R$ 1,02 million; 3) e-mails between Odeb/OAS and Lula’s assistant on progress of work, showing Lula n’ his wife took all the decisions ; 4) According to official registers (cars used by Lula) he visited the home 270 times from 2011-2016, and only his family’s personal belongings were found there ; 5) e-mails on maintenance issues between Lula’s assttnt ‘n the caretaker; 6) security system installed under Lula’s instructions ; there’s more, but insufficient space to list it all.
Half the story ? if what you know proves involvement beyond doubt, what you might not know, is irrelevant. I repeat, plea-bargains without concrete evidence weren’t used to benefit anyone.
“Similarly knowing how the police got hold of details of Odebrecht's accounts…”, Testimony by executives led to the secretary of the bribe dept 'n when picked up, she gave all the details…this led to a secret server in Switzerland etc, with all the incriminating evidence. The execs might have managed to destroy some local evidence before being arrested, but they had no access to this server. You don’t think the Swiss authorities who cooperated in the investigations were in cahoots with Lula’s criminal org, do you ? R$ 277 ???
“who took millions out of poverty--”....THAT is UNproven. No its not
Since 2003 some 20m Brazilians have emerged from poverty and joined the market economy”
””Since 2003 some 20m Brazilians have emerged from poverty and joined the market economy”......................
Says a report from Sept 2010, repeat 2 0 1 0....aren't we in Sept 2018 ? First of all, in 2010, the 'poor' believed they were suddenly pushed into the middle class because the PT lowered the bar for poverty....second, between 2010 - 2015, the PT pushed Brazil into a Lula-Dilma made crisis....so where are all those 20 million ' middle-class' citizens now ?
Terry, you really shouldn't try to be so desceptive...trying to pass off an 8 year old report as representing the current situation....I'd say 'shame' on you, but that would presume you were normal and could actually feel ashamed of your shenanigans.
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