Monday, April 26th 2010 - 06:12 UTC

Malvinas and the Bicentennial: the Rule of Law Shadowed by the Logics of Power

In the Malvinas issue, the rule of the law has been shadowed by the logics of power, said Argentine ambassador before United Nations Jorge Arguello during the presentation Sunday of a book titled “The Malvinas question in the Bicentennial”.

Argentina ambassador in UN, Jorge Arguello

Great Britain makes full use of all its weight not only before Argentina in Malvinas, but also before the United Nations since it refuses to abide by the General Assembly mandate, that for decades has been demanding on both sides to resume sovereignty talks on the Islands”, said Arguello.

The presentation at the annual Book Fair in Buenos Aires became a political event given the attendance of Education Minister Alberto Sileoni, Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister Victorio Taccetti, the chairman of the Lower House Foreign Affairs Committee and the compiler of the book, Agustín Romero.

“We must say it clearly that in the maximum forum of world diplomacy, many times it’s not the logics of the rule of law but the logics of power that prevails”.

The book includes essays from Defence Minister Nilda Garré, Foreign Affairs Minister Jorge Taiana, Education Minister Alberto Sileoni as well as Ambassador Arguello, members of Congress and academics.

“The book looks to reflect the plurality of ideas, suggestions, and political positions referred to the Malvinas question” said  Jorge Arguello.

The compiling of the book was done under the guidance of the Malvinas Question Parliamentary Observatory that operates in the Argentine Congress with members of all political parties with representation in the Legislative.

“The Observatory is basically a reflection environment on an issue which is extremely sensitive for Argentine public opinion. It’s a space where politics and academia can get together to promote debate on the issue, in a spirit of tolerance and respecting the different opinions”.

“The voice of President Cristina Fernandez and from 32 other heads of state from Latinamerica and the Caribbean was heard loud and clear from Cancún, Mexico. But it was also clear the existence at United Nations of a double standard: one thing are the five members from the Security Council and something very differentthe remaining 187 countries”, underlined Arguello.

“For the UN all countries are equal, and each has a vote. But as is often said some are more equal than others”, he complained. “For Argentina, democratizing the UN necessarily implies eliminating the category of permanent member with the capacity to veto”, continued Arguello.

Minister Sileoni celebrated the launching of the book and said it was essential to transmit this feeling to future generations and “educate to build our national identity”.

Finally Taccetti pointed out to the importance of considering the Malvinas as a “national cause”, and emphasized the significant support that this cause has echoed, increasingly, in the international community.

152 comments Feed

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1 Hoytred (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 06:53 am Report abuse
“We must say it clearly that in the maximum forum of world diplomacy, many times it’s not the logics of the rule of law but the logics of power that prevails”.

Argentina couldn't win its case based on either the rule of law or that of power - the case remains spurious, a non-starter!

ps The ' Malvinas Question Parliamentary Observatory' doesn't appear to have achieved more more than a book in its 3 years .... peachy :-)

“ ... emphasized the significant support that this cause has echoed, increasingly, in the international community.... ”

Er, I don't think the banana republics of South America count as 'international community' .... lol

I understnad Pepper and Pascoe's book is due out later this year .... wonder what the reacion will be, more screams of frustration from the Argies I suppose !
2 Hoytred (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:12 am Report abuse
Interesting document at - www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2007/rp07-029.pdf

Not spotted it before!
3 gdr (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:34 am Report abuse
i heard “” ordinary parliament UK“” !
i heard “” Lords' parliament UK “” !
but i ne'er heard of “” Sirs' Parliament UK “” !

UK and it's “” gimmick democracy “” !!
4 Hoytred (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:40 am Report abuse
gdr - I'm sure you're a lovely man and I really hope they let you out of your straight-jacket soon.
5 Christopher UK (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 08:26 am Report abuse
What a load of hot air!!!!! Argentina has fought touth and nail to keep the Falklands 'issue' out of any international court. It is scared shitless of what a court would actually say about its spurious claim and so instead tries to say that it has international support - but this international support is really only a few tiny tinpot/corrupt countries that offer support in voice but not paper and they only do this because of concerns they have in other areas, not really firm support for Argentina.

As she is not getting her way and as she dare not put the issue before a court - Argentina now wants to change the rules in the UN. When will this two bit country realise that it is itself a country built upon genocidal colonialism, sitting on land it stole, and put its hypocrasy away?
6 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 08:38 am Report abuse
the retard call southamerican countries bananas republic, how arrogant!!!

Anyway you will become a banana republic very soon

www.debtbombshell.com/

ROFLMFAO
7 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 09:19 am Report abuse
www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=3038704&op=34&o=global&view=global&subj=25845468632&id=769385225&fbid=41794755225
8 Beef (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 09:21 am Report abuse
We can't do anything so we will write a book.

Perhaps the paper came from a nearby pulp plant?
9 gdr (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 09:41 am Report abuse
jorge !!

i added your (#6) link into my “ Gimmick Brits History ” file !
becouse it's author ,Adrian Flitcroft who is historian !!
10 gdr (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 10:19 am Report abuse
jorge !!

come to our www.businessinsider.com/

there is need a swift commenter like yu !!
11 Idlehands (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 11:33 am Report abuse
Are there no Argentine posters that can actually see the writing on the wall? It is inconceivable that any British government will bow to hostile demands. The only hope Argentina has is to normalise relations with the Falklands and hope that the islanders eventually find unification with Argentina will be in their interests. It would take many years

Bouncing up and down and making threats is simply stopping the countdown clock to that date from ticking
12 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 11:39 am Report abuse
#2 Hoytred thanks for that, useful link.

So in 1997 Argentina was prepared to “drop its claim”.

Interesting.
13 Rufus (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 12:55 pm Report abuse
#11 Idlehands

Not a chance, it's a very useful internal political tool for whoever is in power if they're bombing in the polls and need to distract people. Just shout “Malvinas” a lot and hope that the populace forgets the dogs breakfast that the economy is.
14 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 01:03 pm Report abuse
I think Rufus is right. It's not exactly convenient for Argie governments not to be able to play the Malvinas distraction card when things start to cock up.
15 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 02:30 pm Report abuse
Idlehands, I only agree with you about the clock, it's just a matter of time.

Islands will come back to Argentina and islanders will agree to that.
there is no future for the status of colony as it is right now. It will become in their best interest, I'm sure about that.
They will realize also that they are the only ones with a washed brain.
Future will tell if Argentina is approaching this issue in the right way, but for the time being I strongly agree with it.

Grd, thanks for the invitation.
16 Hoytred (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 02:52 pm Report abuse
Couple of things that have I have discovered today -
a) type in 'List of Territorial Disputes' into Wikipedia and it turns out that nearly every country in the world has some kind of dispute going on! Unlikely then that any country is going to give Argentina's spurious claims the time of day.

b) in 2008 the UN's 4th Committee (Special Political and Decolonization) decided not to limit any people's right to self determination where there was a pre-existing sovereignty dispute. In other words a people's Right to Self Determination has precedence over sovereignty disputes and, in effect, 'territorial integrity'.
17 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 02:53 pm Report abuse
If the islanders wish to become part of Argentina that is up to them, their decision. The attitudes and policies pursued by Argentina, however, will ensure that will never happen.

Case in point, Jorge, issues lots of rhetoric and threats, but they're the only ones brain washed.

And newslash, they're not a colony, the govern themselves and have done so for some time. The more the insulting rhetoric is pursued, the more and more they pull away from Argentina. The chances are that if they saw closer integration with a South American state as desirable, Chile or Uruguay would be a far more attractive bet.
18 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:02 pm Report abuse
They are a colony. end of story!

They will not succed!!!! Dream on it!
19 Idlehands (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:05 pm Report abuse
The islanders are never going to agree to it while under a jingoistic threat. I'd guess they may become interested if there is ever a United States of Latin America formed in the future.

I very much doubt it would happen in any of our lifetimes if ever.
20 Hoytred (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
Sorry forgot to add a link - www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/gaspd406.doc.htm

I suspect that the islanders will head towards true independence in the near future. Argentina's sovereignty/territorial integrity claims seem to be becoming irrelevant .................
21 Idlehands (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:28 pm Report abuse
Independence does seem to be the most equitable solution.
22 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:57 pm Report abuse
They are not a colony, get over it.

Its like talking to a small child, who sticks their fingers in their ears and chants I can't here you.

They have succeeded, the Falkland Islands have gone from strength to strength since 1982 and the FCO choke hold on moving forward for fear of upsetting Argentina was removed.

Get over it, they have done remarkably well without you and despite Argentina's malevolent interference in their affairs.
23 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 03:58 pm Report abuse
And Jorge, Argentina claims the UN supports its position, I take it from the above its a tacit admission that it don't?
24 horacioyanes (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:24 pm Report abuse
For Argentina, the natives of the islands are Argentine citizens living full an indivisible part of national territory is illegally occupied by an occupying power, therefore not applicable to the principle of self-determination but the principle to be applied state's territorial integrity. The sixth paragraph of resolution 1514 (XV) of the UN Assembly, enacted on December 14, 1960, states that “any attempt aimed at partial or total disruption [...] the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter. ” Then, in resolution 2353 (XXII) of January 8, 1968, the Assembly reaffirmed that “any colonial situation which destroys all or part of [...] the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of United Nations Charter. ”

Para la Argentina, los nativos de las islas son ciudadanos argentinos de pleno derecho que habitan una parte indivisible del territorio nacional que se encuentra ocupada ilegalmente por una potencia invasora, por lo tanto no puede aplicárseles el principio de autodeterminación, sino que corresponde aplicar el principio de integridad territorial del estado. El párrafo sexto de la resolución 1514 (XV) de la Asamblea de la ONU, sancionada el 14 de diciembre de 1960, establece que “todo intento encaminado a quebrantar total o parcialmente [...] la integridad territorial de un país es incompatible con los propósitos y principios de la Carta de las Naciones Unidas”. Luego, en la resolución 2353 (XXII), del 8 de enero de 1968, la Asamblea ratificó que “toda situación colonial que destruye total o parcialmente [...] la integridad territorial de un país es incompatible con los propósitos y principios de la Carta de las Naciones Unidas”.
25 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:30 pm
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26 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:33 pm Report abuse
They won't succed, they are a colony of “people” descendents of pirates. End of story!
27 agent0060 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:36 pm Report abuse
Hey, jorge is back, mouthing off again!!
Let's start from the top - the article itself. If refers to something called Malvinas. Unfortunately, this doesn't except in tortured Argentine hallucinations. One other small feature of the article. “For Argentina, democratizing the UN necessarily implies eliminating the category of permanent member with the capacity to veto”. This from a country that gave refuge to, and harboured, Nazi war criminals. Somne of us have long memories.
I don't think there is much chance of the UK becoming a banana republic anytime soon. For a start, we're a constitutional monarchy.
Now, I understand that English is probably a foreign language to you, but try to understand the meaning behind the words. The Falkland Islands are an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom with its own Government. Based on agreements the UK remains responsible for foreign affairs and defence. Those responsibilities are performed in consultation with the Falkland Island government. It is not a colony and has the right of self-determination, something that the Islanders have expressed on many occasions.
The way that Argentina is acting, i.e. its belligerent posture, sooner or later it will take a step too far. How much more of your navy, air force and army do you want to lose? They are already pitiful.
And who will miss Argentina?
28 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:36 pm
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29 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:38 pm
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30 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:38 pm
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31 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:46 pm
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32 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:47 pm Report abuse
Well said avargas!!!!!! Don't worry that many people in the world are willing to put these brits on their knees!!!
33 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:51 pm Report abuse
does anyone know what kelper stand for in spanish ?? it means english brain washed rejects abandoned in mid ocean to gain land for the queen at the cost of their blood and children, in other words a britsh no brain idiot.
34 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:52 pm
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35 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:52 pm
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36 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:53 pm
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37 avargas2001 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 05:53 pm
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38 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 06:03 pm
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39 Christopher UK (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 06:48 pm Report abuse
Oh dear - it appears that Jihad Jorge is upsetting Mercopress and is having his childish comments removed by the editor. I hope that this results in a return to more mature debates on stories posted in this excellent forum.
40 dab14763 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 06:58 pm Report abuse
Horacio re territorial integrity:

1) The Falklands have never been under Argentine sovereignty, so territorial integrity is not applicable.

2) UN GA Resolutions do not have retroactive application to any event that ocurred before the UN was formed.

3)Resolutions 1514 and 2353 have been superseded by Resolution 2625 (XXV) of 1970

www.un-documents.net/a25r2625.htm

which in the section “The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples” says about territorial integrity:

“Nothing in the foregoing paragraphs shall be construed as authorizing or encouraging any action which would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States conducting themselves in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples as described above and thus possessed of a government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction as to race, creed or colour. ”

Argentina does not have a government representing the people of the Falklands.
41 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:13 pm Report abuse
All southamericans comments removed by the editor. Gooooooood job Mercopress!!!!! I congratulate you!!!! Ortega y Gazet is for you this years! You are now in the big leagues togheter with Clarin!
42 axel arg (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:40 pm
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43 gdr (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 07:45 pm Report abuse
jorge ! don't heat please !

i guess that the editor wants to protect us and
enjoy the Brits' crowings !!
44 jorge! (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 08:17 pm Report abuse
Thanks for the message Mercopress!!!!
45 alexius (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 08:29 pm Report abuse
Oh Jorge ... Have you not understood, that after WW2 all civilised (Repeat CIVILISED) countries accepted , the time of imperialisme and colonisation was finised.
Unhappily they had not taken in account, that if a nation ,which had very big internal problems (Hyperinflation, unimployment,bad economi, death patrouls, peoples demonstrations and huge unsatisfaction etc etc) would be so desperate, that the nation put shit on all international rules, just to gain some popularity in the uneducated masses (underclass/union members etc).
Jorge ,, instead using your time to make propaganda for neo-colonialism , use your time ,to ask yorself, why the Falklanders do not want to be a par tof your “wonderful” country.
Byt the way, I understand the year 1833 is significant. Very well!!
Look at a geographical map from that time and you ought to be surprised!!
The indigenous people (Mapuche and others) still governed half sw-part
of their homeland (remember! it was before the quonqest of the desert)
Now the 1 Billion question comes!! When will you pirates give back the stolen land to the indigenous people????
Do you have double standards or?? Answer requested...
For your information, i am not British. Have no relations/family in England. Have only read your nationalistic/racistic/hateful and imperialistic comments.
Regards from Scandinavia (Vikings you know!)
46 agent0060 (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 08:56 pm Report abuse
Does anyone know whether Jihad Jorge posts on any other subject than his nationalistic/racistic/hateful and imperialistic ravings about the Falkland Islands.
47 Beef (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 09:29 pm Report abuse
Jorge, appears to be able to bend any discussion to include the Falklands in some way. He even called us “pirates” regarding Gibraltar but appeard to skirt around the issue of the Spanish enclaves in North Africa that are claimed by Morocco.

Looks like the editor has had enough of his innaccurate rantings. This was the man who described the deaths of those on 9/11 (including Argentines) as collateral damage.

I hope he finds happiness in life because he is laking direction or a moral compass at present.
48 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 26th, 2010 - 10:33 pm Report abuse
pero ellos deberan respetar tambien, nuestro derecho a ejercer soverania sobre las islas...

Axel. Argentina has absolutely no right to exercise sovereignty over the Falklands. There is no basis for your claim whatsoever. Sorry, but you do not have any rights over the Falklands. The only way this problem will be solved is for Argentina to drop its claim. Otherwise you are probably correct in your assessment that the Falklands will continue to be a British territory into the foreseeable future.
49 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 01:36 am Report abuse
#43 & 44

An excellent example of Argentine thinking ............ take reality, twist it into some kind of 'win' and proclaim it as a victory .... they'll probably daub it around the Plata de Mayo :-)
50 Nofearoftheargie (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 05:41 am Report abuse
46 agent0060: An example of how Jihad Jorge can even twist a story of he first Argie gay marriage (his own?); Jihad Jorge! 'Some judges have time to spend it in this kind of issues. Why don't they let these people alone???? They just want to be together, they are not asking to be independent from Argentina like some others in the South Atlantic!!! :-)'
51 horacioyanes (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 01:47 pm Report abuse
Very bad comparison; but if I'm of according that they can independent UK to become a province over Argentina.
52 jorge! (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 01:52 pm Report abuse
........”Oh Jorge ... Have you not understood, that after WW2 all civilised (Repeat CIVILISED) countries accepted , the time of imperialisme and colonisation was finised.“....

- I understood, your country didn't.

........”Jorge ,, instead using your time to make propaganda for neo-colonialism , use your time ,to ask yorself, why the Falklanders do not want to be a par tof your “wonderful” country.“........

- Why would I do it??? I don't care. Besides it is obvious, they feel british and NOTHING will change that!

............”Now the 1 Billion question comes!! When will you pirates give back the stolen land to the indigenous people????“.......

- Make a claim at the UN and we'll see. There is no claim against Argentina there.

......”Do you have double standards or?? Answer requested...“...

- Good question for the british. They claim self-determination for current islanders but didn't for those in 1833. Garcia island another example. Uffffff many across history.

........”For your information, i am not British. Have no relations/family in England. Have only read your nationalistic/racistic/hateful and imperialistic comments.
Regards from Scandinavia (Vikings you know!)”........

- My comments are not nationalistic, neither racist, hateful or imperialistic, just express what one argentine citizen feels which I truly think is the sentiment of the vast majority. You don't know me, you don't know how I think about other issues or how I behave in my life.

P.S. I thought vikings mentality didn't exist anymore, but I think I was wrong.
53 jorge! (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 02:06 pm Report abuse
46. Not worth answering.

.........“Jorge, appears to be able to bend any discussion to include the Falklands in some way. He even called us “pirates” regarding Gibraltar but appeard to skirt around the issue of the Spanish enclaves in North Africa that are claimed by Morocco.”.......

- What Spain ded or does in North Africa won't make your actions legal, you can't justificate it.

........”Looks like the editor has had enough of his innaccurate rantings. This was the man who described the deaths of those on 9/11 (including Argentines) as collateral damage.“.......

- That's bullshit!. I said ”collateral damage“ is a term invented by you to justificate the death of civilians in wars. I support those who fight to liberate their countries from your ilegal occupation no matter who they are or hoe you call them. Your country alongside USA and Israel are the the terrorists of this world!

........”I hope he finds happiness in life because he is laking direction or a moral compass at present.“......

- lol. Don't worry, I'm happy in my life.

..........”46 agent0060: An example of how Jihad Jorge can even twist a story of he first Argie gay marriage (his own?);“.........

- Are you in love with me??? Have you got some kind of problem with the gay marriage??? Is there a little secret you want to share???

.........”Jihad Jorge! 'Some judges have time to spend it in this kind of issues. Why don't they let these people alone???? They just want to be together, they are not asking to be independent from Argentina like some others in the South Atlantic!!! :-)'”........

- That was my comment on the gay marriage article. Although I'm not jihad.
Unfortunately for you, I'm not gay, but hey! don't worry, we can be friends, I'm not homophobic. :-)
54 LegionNi (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 03:02 pm Report abuse
Following text taken from the Argentine Constittion.

“First.- The Argentine Nation ratifies its legitimate and non-prescribing sovereignty over the Malvinas, Georgias del Sur and Sandwich del Sur Islands and over the corresponding maritime and insular zones, as they are an integral part of the National territory.

The recovery of said territories and the full exercise of sovereignty, respectful of the way of life of their inhabitants and according to the principles of international law, are a permanent and unrelinquished goal of the Argentine people.”

I don't understand how Argentina can keep insisting the UK is in breach of UN resolutions in regards to neogtiations on sovereignty of the Falkland islands when they have clearly stated in their own constitution that they are not willing to accpet any other outcome than transfer of sovereignty.

You don't sit down to negotiate when one party will only accpet one outcome. That isn't negotiation that is one party making a demand of the other.

If Argentina is serious about fair and equitable negotiations, then Argentina should first remove this section of text from it's constitution.
55 LegionNi (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 03:05 pm Report abuse
“Great Britain makes full use of all its weight not only before Argentina in Malvinas, but also before the United Nations since it refuses to abide by the General Assembly mandate, that for decades has been demanding on both sides to resume sovereignty talks on the Islands”, said Arguello.

Mandate??? What mandate??

They are Resolutions not the same thing as a UN mandate. If the Argentine diplomats can't tell the difference between UN resolutions and UN mandates then there is just no hope for them.
56 jorge! (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 04:47 pm Report abuse
..........“I don't understand how Argentina can keep insisting the UK is in breach of UN resolutions in regards to neogtiations on sovereignty of the Falkland islands when they have clearly stated in their own constitution that they are not willing to accpet any other outcome than transfer of sovereignty.”.............

- You can sit to negotiate and talk about that, once an agreement is reached, argentine lawmaker could modify that with the consent of majority.

........“You don't sit down to negotiate when one party will only accpet one outcome. That isn't negotiation that is one party making a demand of the other.”........

- You can start the negotiations, that doesn't mean you are agreeing to anything, just talking.
On the other hand, by asking Argentina to drop its claim, some of your countrymen are not helping to solve the dispute since that are not gonna happen.

.......“If Argentina is serious about fair and equitable negotiations, then Argentina should first remove this section of text from it's constitution.”......

- That text weren't there till 1994, what did UK do regarding negotiations before that year? NOTHING.

- If you want to solve this, then start recognizing you have a problem here that need to be solved through negotiations.
We know we can't impose our language, culture, way of life, etc. to islanders, that is also in the constitucion.
I'm sure Argentina could give almost full authonomy to the islands if it were through negotiations. More authonomy than B.A. city and provincies, but negotiations are needed.
57 jorge! (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 04:50 pm Report abuse
..........“They are Resolutions not the same thing as a UN mandate. If the Argentine diplomats can't tell the difference between UN resolutions and UN mandates then there is just no hope for them.”........

- Resolutions should be respected, otherwise UN is useless.
58 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 06:11 pm Report abuse
Yup, exactly Jorge, and you have not yet been able to tell us which UN resolution the UK is in contravention of. The best you could do was a draft resolution, which had us all all rolling about on the floor laughing at your stupidity.

I can think of at least one UN resolution Argentina ignored, in fact there are many examples of Argentina simply ignoring UN resolutions...
59 Christopher UK (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 06:39 pm Report abuse
Jihad Jorge wrote “- If you want to solve this, then start recognizing you have a problem here that need to be solved through negotiations.”

I has ignore the rest of your post from which the above quote came as you seem to think that any outcome of negotiations would be transfer of title to Argentina.

What I want to do is pick up on a MAJOR flaw in Argentina's arguement. You say that the UK has to recognise that it has a problem...that is not true at all. It is Argentina that has the problem. You see Argenitna has made a CLAIM to lands that have been under legal and internationally recognised British title for generations - that is all. It is a CLAIM.

Argentina wants the UK to just recognise that claim as valid - without it ever going to any court. In fact, Argentina has fought tooth and nail to stop it ever going anywhere near a court. Argentina is afraid of its claim being put to a court to decide upon the legality of its CLAIM.

Why should the UK go into negotiations based upon Argentina's - as yet - unfounded claim. Let me put it another way; I lay claim to you house Jorge. Will you go into negotiations with me to hand it over to me? Of course you would not. And you would be right not to do so.

Argentina has made a claim on the islands - one that it drops and then picks up again when it suits it. But it is only a claim and a simple claim, and it is just a simpe claim because it has not been allowed by Argentina to be tested in a court, is no way to enter into a negotiation.

So, let us knock this idea about the weight of your claim as it only words and carries zero wait unless tested in court. Test it in court...then lets discuss how to move on. I dare Argentina to test in in court.
60 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 07:33 pm Report abuse
Jorgebobo will simply say that we stole the house from him in the first place. He'll insist he inherited the house from his Spanish father. We and Jorgebobo know this is complete bollocks, but he'll insist anyway...
61 axel arg (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 09:15 pm Report abuse
J. A. ROBERT, i have some thing very interesting to tell you, last friday i went to our chancery, because i wanted to search evidences for my survey, to refute that mendacious document from pascoe and pepper.
I had sent before an i mail to the chancery, because i wanted to tell our ministers about the arguments from that document, one of our ministers answered me, mrs liliana dos reis, she told me that she knew about that document, she gave a lot of references to refute many of the points of it, beside she invited me to the chancery to search all the information that i need for my survey.
About the treaty to reestablish the relations between arg, the u.k., and france, the only one purpose of that treaty was the raising of the blockade, it didn't have anything to do with the malvinas's dispute, beside it was never used by the u.k. as a prescription of our claim, i have a copy of that treaty in my house, that's why i know what i am saying.
Beside, you say that my country didn't claim since 1850 untill 1941, that's absolutly false, what is truth is the fact that since 1850 untill 1884, our claim was paralyzed, but since that year untill 1941, there is a mountain of claims made by argentina, i can translate many of them to you if you want.
On the other and i have a letter wrotte by manuel moreno to lord palmerston in 1849, it's very interesting, i can translate it to you.
About the prescription that you say, it's only valid for the private international right, but it's not valid for the public international right, that was what our minister told me, beside my country never recognized the legitimity of the british ocupation in the malvinas.
Anyway i have a lot to survey yet, but i am very satisfied with all the evidences that i could find.
62 Christopher UK (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 09:59 pm Report abuse
J.A. Roberts wrote “Jorgebobo will simply say that we stole the house from him in the first place. He'll insist he inherited the house from his Spanish father. We and Jorgebobo know this is complete bollocks, but he'll insist anyway...”

Ah but there is still a legal problem and one that still needs to be put before a court, which Argentina refuses to do and is scared to do.

Argentina would need to produce the Will in a court - until then it is still only a CLAIM on the part of Argentin. They will need to produce a document from Spain that states that Spain left the Falklands to Argentina. Spain would also need to show that it held full legal title and that that title could be transfered by Spain to Argentina. In law there are many titles that are not transferable. All we really have is words from Argentina - just words that they say is a claim of inheritence. My point therefore still stands and I challenge Argentina to stop its bullying of the peaceful people of the Falklands and, if it REALLY thinks that it has a case, go to an international court to get a ruling. I won't hold my breath.
63 Christopher UK (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 10:03 pm Report abuse
axel arg wrote “Anyway i have a lot to survey yet, but i am very satisfied with all the evidences that i could find.”

LOL - then put it to an international court instead of waffling on. Not that I accept your conclusions - to be honest - Argentina could have kept up its claims each and every year. They are still only claims that have no basis on law and have not been put to the test in an international court.
64 Christopher UK (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 10:13 pm Report abuse
Actually - Argentina has NO place to make any claim. Argentina is forever saying that the islanders have no voice and that the only two parties in any negotiation are the UK and Argentina. Well, under UN mandate, we know that is bollocks but, if we look at this logically, Argentina should not have a voice in this as it is NONE of its business. If we are being pedantic, and the law often can be, then the parties are actually Spain, the UK and the islanders. There is nothing from Spain to say that they left their contested title to Argentina. Argentina says that Spain left the islands to Argentina in some form of dubious inheritence. Where is the document? How could Spain transfer title when it was contested by another party - the UK?

So, I conclude, using Argentina's twisted logic, that Argentina has no say on the islands and should but out as it is none of their business. If there is a set of negotiations to be had, and in the 21st C that is over ruled by UN mandates on self determination, then those negotiations should be between the UK, Spain and the islanders. Given that Spain has not made a claim in the UN to the islands we can conclude, based upon Jorges comments that no one is asking for Pataginia back so no negotiations needed, that there is nothing to discuss. We can move on as the case is closed.

I expect noting but rubbish in response from the Argentines posting here but it matters not as they have no say as I have just proven!
65 dab14763 (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 10:15 pm Report abuse
axel arg, whether or not the 1849 treaty ended the claim doesn't alter the fact that Argentina never had a valid legal claim in the first place.

Between 1888 and 1941 there were protests to the UK, but over other islands Argentina claims, not over the Falklands, and there were protests over the Falklands but they were not made to the UK. There were no protests over the Falklands made to the UK, which is what was required for the protests to have legal validity.

And finally, about this

“About the prescription that you say, it's only valid for the private international right, but it's not valid for the public international right, that was what our minister told me”

If that is the case, the British claim, since 1690, long before any French or Spanish claim and long before Argentina even existed, has never prescribed either.
66 Christopher UK (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 10:19 pm Report abuse
axel arg wrote “ that was what our minister told me””

ROTFLMAO LOL LOL LOL - the words of a biased and corrupt Argentine minister...well they are worth the paper they are written. Which is unusual as more often than not Argentina has nothing on paper.
67 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 10:59 pm Report abuse
Well well well what has been going on here in my hiatus, not much?

I wonder if senor Arguello is as keen on encouraging democratizing the Falklanders say on the future of themselves and their nation as he is on democratizing the UN?

do I take it than that “Arguello the wrath of cod” is distinctly jealous that Argentina having long perceived itself as leading the way in South America has had itself been overtaken by countries it regarded as inferiors?

Such a pity I always regarded Argentina as a bastardized version of europe, Now I know the answer......it's a bastardized version of all the bits that go wrong in europe!
68 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 11:55 pm Report abuse
#61 Axel Arg -“ ... On the other and i have a letter wrotte by manuel moreno to lord palmerston in 1849, it's very interesting, i can translate it to you..”

Do you have Palmerston's reply .... it is also very interesting and dismisses the Argentine argument!

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON to M. DE MORENO.
Foreign Office, January 8, 1834.
The undersigned, &c. has the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the note of M. Moreno, &c. dated the 17th of June last, in which he formally protests, in the name of his government, ”against the sovereignty lately assumed in the Malvina (or Falkland) Islands, by the crown of Great Britain.”
Before the undersigned proceeds to reply to the allegations advanced in M. Moreno's note, upon which his protest against this act on the part of his Majesty is founded, the undersigned deems it proper to draw M. Moreno's attention to the contents of the protest which Mr.Parish, the British Chargé d'Affaires, at Buenos Ayres, addressed, in the name of his court, to the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic, on the 19th of November 1829, in consequence of the British Government having been informed that the president of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata had issued decrees, and had made grants of land, in the nature of acts of sovereignty over the islands in question.
That protest made known to the government of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata:—
1st. That the authority which that government had thus assumed, was considered by the British Government as incompatible with the sovereign rights of Great Britain over the Falkland Islands.
2dly. That those sovereign rights, which were founded upon the original discovery and subsequent occupation of those islands, had acquired an additional sanction fromthe fact, that his Catholic Majesty had restored the British settlement, which had been forcibly taken possession of by a Spanish force, in the year 1771.
3dly. That the withdrawal of his Majesty's forces from the Falkland Islands, in 1
69 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 11:56 pm Report abuse
1774, could not invalidate the just rights of Great Britain, because that withdrawal took place only in pursuance of the system of retrenchment adopted at that time by his Majesty's Government.
4thly. That the marks and signals of possession and of property, left upon the islands, the British flag still flying, and all the other formalities observed upon the occasion of the departure of the governor, were calculated not only to assert the rights of ownership, but to indicate the intention of resuming the occupation of the territory at some future period.
Upon these grounds Mr. Parish protested against the pretensions set up on the part of the Argentine Republic, and against all acts done to the prejudice of the just rights of sovereignty heretofore exercised by the crown of Great Britain.
The Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic acknowledged the receipt of the British protest; and acquainted Mr. Parish that his government would give it their particular consideration, and that he would communicate to him their decision upon the subject, so soon as he should receive directions to that effect.
No answer was, however, at any time returned, nor was any objection raised, on the part of the government of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata, to the rights of Great Britain, as asserted in that protest; but the Buenos Ayrean government persisted, notwithstanding the receipt of that protest, in exercising those acts of sovereignty against which the protest was specially directed.
The government of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata could not have expected, after the explicit declaration which had been so formally made of the right of the crown of Great Britain to the islands in question, that his Majesty would silently submit to such a course of proceeding; nor could that government have been surprised at the step which his Majesty thought proper to take, in order to the resumption of rights which had never been abandoned, and which had only been permi
70 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 11:57 pm Report abuse
permitted to lie dormant, under circumstances which had been explained to the Buenos-Ayrean government.
The claim of Great Britain to the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands having been unequivocally asserted and maintained, during those discussions with Spain, in 1770 and 1771, which nearly led to a war between the two countries, and Spain having deemed it proper to put an end to those discussions, by restoring to his Majesty the places from which British subjects had been expelled, the government of the United Provinces could not reasonably have anticipated that the British Government would permit any other state to exercise a right, as derived from Spain, which Great Britain had denied to Spain herself; and this consideration alone would fully justify his Majesty's Government in declining to enter into any further explanation upon a question which, upwards of half a century ago, was so notoriously and decisively adjusted with another government more immediately concerned.
But M. Moreno, in the note which he has addressed to the undersigned, has endeavoured to shew that, at the termination of the memorable discussions referred to between Great Britain and Spain, a secret understanding existed between the two courts, in virtue of which Great Britain was pledged to restore the islands to Spain at a subsequent period, and that the evacuation of them, in 1774, by his Majesty, was the fulfilment of that pledge.
The existence of such a secret understanding is alleged to be proved; first, by the reservation, as to the former right of sovereignty over the islands, which was contained in the Spanish declaration, delivered at the time of the restoration of Port Egmont and its dependencies to his Majesty; and, secondly, by the concurrent description of the transaction, as it took place beween the parties, given in certain documents and historical works.
Although the reservation referred to cannot be deemed to possess any substantial weight, inasmuch as no notice whatever is
71 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 11:58 pm Report abuse
taken of it in the British counter-declaration, which was exchanged against it; and although the evidence adduced from unauthentic historical publications cannot be regarded as entitled to any weight whatever with a view to a just decision upon a point of international rights; yet as the allegations above-mentioned involve an imputation against the good faith of Great Britain, to which his Majesty's Government cannot but feel sensibly alive, the undersigned has been honoured with the King's commands to cause the official correspondence with the court of Madrid, at the period alluded to, to be carefully inspected, in order that the circumstances which really took place upon the occasion might be accurately ascertained.
That inspection has accordingly been made, and the undersigned has the honour to communicate to M. Moreno the following extracts, which contain all the material information that can be gathered from that correspondence relative to the transaction in question:—

The EARL of ROCHFORD to JAMES HARRIS, Esq.
“St. James's, 25th January 1771.
”I enclose to you a copy of the declaration signed on Tuesday last by Prince Masserano, with that of my acceptance of it in his Majesty's name.“
SPANISH DECLARATION.
”Sa Majesté Britannique s'étant plainte de la violence qui avoit été commise le 10 Juin de l'année 1770, à l'lle communément appelée la Grande Maloüine, et par les Anglais dite Falkland, en obligeant par la force le Commandant, et les sujets de sa Majesté Britannique, à évacuer le port par eux appelé Egmont, démarche offensante à l'honneur de sa Couronne, le Prince de Masseran, Ambassadeur Extraordinaire de sa Majesté Catholique, a reçu ordre de déclarer, et déclare, que sa Majesté Catholique, considérant l'amour dont elle est animée pour la paix, et pour le maintien de la bonne harmonie avec sa Majesté Britannique, et réfléchissant que cet évènement pourroit l'interrompre, a vu avec déplaisir cette expédition capable de la troubler; et dans la persuasion où
72 Hoytred (#) Apr 27th, 2010 - 11:59 pm Report abuse
où elle est de la réciprocité de ses sentimens, et de son éloignement pour autoriser tout ce qui pourroit troubler la bonne intelligence entre les deux Cours, sa Majesté Catholique désavoue la susdite entreprise violente, et, en conséquence, le Prince de Masseran déclare, que sa Majesté Catholique s'engage à donner des ordres immédiats pour qu'on remette les choses dans la Grande Maloüine, au port dit Egmont, précisément dans l'état où elles étoient avant le 10 Juin 1770, auquel effet sa Majesté Catholique donnera ordre à un de ses officiers, de remettre à l'officier autorisé par sa Majesté Britannique, le fort et le port Egmont, avec toute l'artillerie, les munitions, et effets de sa Majesté Britannique et de ses sujets, qui s'y sont trouvés le jour ci-dessus nommé, conformément à l'inventaire qui en a été dressé.
“Le Prince de Masseran déclare en même tems, au nom du Roi son Maitre, que l'engagement de sa dite Majesté Catholique, de restituer à sa Majesté Britannique la possession du port et fort dit Egmont, ne peut ni ne doit nullement affecter la question du droit antérieur de souveraineté des Iles Maloüines, autrement dites Falkland.
”En foi de quoi, moi, le susdit Ambassadeur Extraordinaire, ai signé la présente Déclaration de ma signature ordinaire, et à icelle fait apposer le cachet de nos armes. A Londres, le 22 Janvier 1771.
(L.S.) (Signé) “LE PRINCE DE MASSERAN.”

BRITISH COUNTER DECLARATION.
”Sa Majesté Catholique ayant autorisé son Excellence le Prince de Masserano, son Ambassadeur Extraordinaire, à offrir, en son nom royal, au Roi de la Grande Bretagne, une satisfaction pour l'injure faite à sa Majesté Britannique, en la dépossédant du port et fort du port Egmont; et le dit ambassadeur ayant aujourd'hui signé une Déclaration, qu'il vient de me remettre, y exprimant, que sa Majesté Catholique, ayant le désir de rétablir la bonne harmonie et amitié que subsistoient ci-devant entre les deux couronnes, désavoue l'expédition contre le port Egmont, dans laqu
73 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:00 am Report abuse
laquelle la force a été employée, contre les possessions, commandant, et sujets de sa Majesté Britannique, et s'engage aussi que toutes choses seront immédiatement remises dans la situation précise dans laquelle elles étoient avant le 10 Juin 1770; et que sa Majesté Catholique donnera des ordres en conséquence à un de ses officiers de remettre à l'officier, autorisé par sa Majesté Britannique, le port et fort du Port Egmont, comme aussi toute l'artillerie, les munitions, et effets de sa Majesté Britannique, et de ses sujets, selon l'inventaire qui en a été dressé; et le dit ambassadeur s'étant de plus engagé, au nom de sa Majesté Catholique, que le contenu de la dite déclaration sera effectué par sa Majesté Catholique, et que des duplicatas des ordres de sa dite Majesté Catholique à ses officiers seront remis entre les mains d'un des Principaux Secrétaires d'Etat de sa Majesté Britannique, dans l'espace de six semaines; sa dite Majesté Britannique, afin de faire voir les mêmes dispositions amicales de sa part, m'a autorisé à déclarer, qu'elle regardera la dite déclaration du Prince de Masserano, avec l'accomplissement entier du dit engagement de la part de sa Majesté Catholique, comme une satisfaction de l'injure faite à la Couronne de la Grande Bretagne. En foi de quoi, moi, soussigné, un des Principaux Secretaires d'Etat de sa Majesté Britannique, ai signé la présente de ma signature ordinaire, et à icelle fait apposer le cachet de nos armes. A Londres, ce 22 Janvier 1771.
(L.S.) (Signé) “ROCHFORD.”
JAMES HARRIS, Esq. to the EARL OF ROCHFORD.
“Madrid, 14th February 1771.
”They keep the declaration here as secret as possible. I do not find any to whom they have shown it, except those to whom they are obliged to communicate it. They also report that we have given a verbal assurance to evacuate Falkland's Island in the space of two months.“
The EARL OF ROCHFORD to JAMES HARRIS, Esq.
”St. James's, 8th March 1771.
”His Majesty has been pleased to order the Juno frigate
74 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:01 am Report abuse
of thirty-two guns, the Hound sloop, and Florida store-ship, to be prepared to go to Port Egmont, in order to receive the possession from the Spanish commander there; and as I have spoken so fully to Prince Masserano on the manner of its being executed, it is needless for me to say any more to you upon it.
“I think it right to acquaint you, that the Spanish ambassador pressed me to have some hopes given him of our agreeing to a mutual abandoning of Falkland's Islands, to which I replied, that it was impossible for me to enter on that subject with him, as the restitution mut precede every discourse relating to those islands.”You will endeavour, on all occasions, to inculcate the absurdity of Spain having any apprehensions, from the state in which Port Egmont was before its capture, or the force now sent out, of his Majesty's intending to make use of it for the annoyance of their settlements in the South Sea, than which nothing can be farther from the King's inclination, who sincerely desires to preserve peace between the two nations.“
The EARL of ROCHFORD to the LORDS of the ADMIRALTY.
”St. James's, 15th March 1771.
”Your lordships having acquainted me that, in consequence of his Majesty's pleasure, signified in my letter of 22d last, you had ordered the Juno frigate, the Hound sloop, and Florida store-ship, to be prepared to proceed to Falkland's Islands, I am commanded to signify to your lordships his Majesty's pleasure, that you order the commander of the said frigate, as soon as those ships are ready for sea, to repair directly with them to Port Egmont, and presenting to Don Felipe Ruiz Puente, or any other Spanish officer he finds there, the duplicates of his Catholic Majesty's orders sent herewith, to receive, in proper form, the restitution of possession, and of the artillery, stores, and effects, agreeably to the said orders, and to the inventories signed by the Captains Farmer and Maltby (copies of which are annexed), and that you direct him to take an exact
75 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:02 am Report abuse
account of any deficiency which there may be of the things mentioned in the said inventories, in order that the same may be made good by his Catholic Majesty; giving a copy of the said account, signed by himself, to the Spanish officer, and desiring an acknowledgment under his hand of the same being a true account.
“After the said restitution shall have been completed, it is the King's pleasure that Captain Stott should return immediately to England with the Juno frigate and the Florida store-ship, unless he find it necessary to leave the latter behind; and that the Hound sloop should remain stationed in the harbour till his Majesty's further orders.
”Your lordships will direct Captain Stott to behave with the greatest prudence and civility towards the Spanish commander and the subjects of his Catholic Majesty, carefully avoiding any thing that might give occasion to disputes or animosity, and strictly restraining the crews of the ships under his command in this respect; but if, at or after the restitution to be made, the Spanish commander should make any protest against his Majesty's right to Port Egmont, or Falkland's Islands, it is his Majesty's pleasure that the commander of his ships should answer the same by a counter-protest, in proper terms, of his Majesty's right to the whole of the said islands, and against the right of his Catholic Majesty to any part of the same.
”In case, from any accident or otherwise, Captain Stott should not, on his arrival at Port Egmont, find any officer there on the part of the King of Spain, your lordships will direct him (supposing he should find it necessary to put any of his men on shore) to avoid setting up any marks of possession, or letting his Majesty's colours fly on shore, as it is for the King's honour that the possession should be formally restored by an officer of his Catholic Majesty; and for that reason it will be proper that the King's commanding officer should keep a good look-out, and, upon perceiving the approac
76 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:03 am Report abuse
approach of any vessel of his Catholic Majesty, should re-embark any of his men who may at that time be on shore, that the possession may be indisputably vacant.
“If it should happen that after the King's ships shall have remained as late as all October, no Spanish officer should yet appear, your lordships will direct Captain Stott, in such case, either to proceed himself, or send an officer to Soledad, to deliver his Catholic Majesty's orders to the Spanish comander there, taking care not to salute the fort as a Spanish garrison, and making a protest, in civil terms, against that settlement of his Catholic Majesty's subjects in an island belonging to his Majesty.
”If, within a reasonable time after the delivery of the said order to the Spanish commander, at Soledad, there still shall not arrive at Port Egmont any officer of his Catholic Majesty to make the restitution, it is the King's pleasure that the commanding officer of his ships should then draw up a protest of the inexecution of his Catholic Majesty's late declaration, and should take formal possession, in his Majesty's name; hoisting his Majesty's colours on shore; and that, leaving there the Hound sloop, and Florida store-ship (if the latter is necessary), and sending a duplicate of his protest to the Spanish officer at Soledad, he should proceed to England to lay before your lordships, for his Majesty's information, his report of the manner in which he has executed his commission. Your lordships will take care that a sufficient quantity of provisions and necessaries of all kinds may be sent out in the said three vessels; and will, at a convenient distance of time, despatch another store-ship for a further supply.
“P.S. I also enclose to your Lordships the copy of his Catholic Majesty's order to Don Felipe Ruiz Puente, with its translation.”

ORDER of the KING of SPAIN.
(Translation.)
”It being agreed between the King and his Britannic Majesty, by a Convention signed in London on the 22d of January last pa
77 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:04 am Report abuse
past, by the Prince of Masserano and the Earl of Rochford, that the Great Malouine, called by the English Falkland, should be immediately replaced in the precise situation in which it was before it was evacuated by them on the 10th June last year; I signify to you, by the King's order, that, as soon as the person commissioned by the Court of London, shall present himself to you with this, you order the delivery of the Port de la Cruzada or Egmont, and its fort and dependencies, to be effected, as also of all the artillery, ammunition and effects, that were found there, belonging to his Britannic Majesty and his subjects, according to the inventories signed by George Farmer and William Maltby, Esqs., on the 11th July of the said year, at the time of their quitting the same, of which I send you the enclosed copies, authenticated under my hand; and that, as soon as the one and the other shall be effected with the due formalities, you cause to retire immediately the officer and other subjects of the King which may be there. God preserve you many years. Pardo, 7th February 1771.
“The BALIO FRAY, DON JULIAN DE ARRIAGA.
”To Don Felipe Ruiz Puente.“

CAPTAIN STOTT to the ADMIRALTY.
”Juno, Plymouth, 9th December 1771.
”I must beg leave to refer their lordships to the letter I had the honour of writing you from Rio de Janeiro, the 30th of July last, for the occurrences of my voyage to that time; from whence I sailed, with his Majesty's ships under my command, the next day, and arrived at Port Egmont the evening of the 13th of September following. The next morning, seeing Spanish colours flying, and troops on shore, at the settlement formerly held by the English, I sent a lieutenant to know if any officer was there on behalf of his Catholic Majesty, empowered to make restitution of possession to me, agreeably to the orders of his Court for that purpose, duplicates of which I had to deliver him: I was answered, that the commanding officer, Don Francisco de Orduna, a lieutenant
78 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:05 am Report abuse
of the royal artillery of Spain, was furnished with full powers, and ready to effect the restitution. He soon after came on board the Juno to me, when I delivered him his Catholic Majesty's orders. We then examined into the situation of the settlement and stores, adjusted the form of the estitution and reception of the possession—instruments for which were settled, executed, and reciprocally delivered (that which I received from the Spanish officer, and a copy of what I gave him, are here enclosed). On Monday, the 16th of September, I landed, followed by a party of marines, and was received by the Spanish officer, who formally restored me the possession; on which I caused his Majesty's colours to be hoisted and the marines to fire three volleys, and the Juno five guns, and was congratulated, as were the officers with me, by the Spanish officer, with great cordiality on the occasion. The next day Don Francisco, with all the troops and subjects of the King of Spain, departed in a schooner which they had with them. I have only to add, that this transaction was effected with the greatest appearance of good faith, without the least claim or reserve being made by the Spanish officer in behalf of his Court.“

LORD GRANTHAM to the EARL of ROCHFORD.
”Madrid, 2d January 1772.
“I have received the honour of your lordship's despatch, containing the agreeable intelligence of the restitution of Port Egmont and its dependencies, with the due formalities. On receiving this notice I waited on the Marquis de Grimaldi, to assure him of his Majesty's satisfaction at the good faith and punctuality observed in this transaction. M. de Grimaldi seemed aware of the intention of my visit, and was almost beforehand with me in communicating notice of this event's being known in England. He seemed well pleased at the conclusion of this affair, but entered no further into conversation upon it.”
The LORDS of the ADMIRALTY to the EARL of ROCHFORD.
“Admiralty Office, 15th February 1772.
”Having rec
79 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:05 am Report abuse
received by the Florida store-ship, lately arrived at Spit-head, a letter from Captain Burr, of his Majesty's sloop the Hound, dated at Port Egmont, in Falkland's Islands, the 10th of November last, giving an account that, in the preceding month, two Spanish vessels had arrived there with the artillery, provisions, and stores, which had been taken from thence by the Spaniards, and that he had received the same from a commissary appointed by Don Philip Ruiz Puente, to deliver them up to him; we send your lordship herewith a copy of Captain Burr's said letter, together with a copy of the inventory of the artillery, provisions, and stores, which he had received as aforesaid, for his Majesty's information.“

The EARL of ROCHFORD to LORD GRANTHAM.
”St. James's, 6th March 1772.
“It may be of use to inform your Excellency, that his Majesty has determined to reduce the force employed at Falkland's Island to a small sloop with about fifty men, and twenty-five marines on shore, which will answer the end of keeping the possession: and, at the same time, ought to make the court of Spain very easy as to our having any intention of making it a settlement of annoyance to them.”
The EARL of ROCHFORD to LORD GRANTHAM.
“St. James's, February 11th, 1774.
”I think it proper to acquaint your Excellency that Lord North, in a speech some days ago in the House of Commons, on the subject of the Naval Establishment for this year, mentioned the intention of reducing the naval forces in the East Indies, as a material object of diminishing the number of seamen; and at the same time hinted, as a matter of small consequence, that, in order to avoid the expense of keeping any seamen or marines at Falkland's Island, they would be brought away, after leaving there the proper marks or signals of possession, and of its belonging to the Crown of Great Britain. As this measure was publicly declared in Parliament, it will naturally be reported to the Court of Spain; and though there is no necessity of yo
80 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:07 am Report abuse
your Excellency's communicating this notice officially to the Spanish minisers, since it is only a private regulation with regard to our own convenience; yet, as I am inclined to think, from what passed formerly upon this subject, that they will rather be pleased at this event, your Excellency may, if they mention it to you, freely avow it, without entering into any other reasonings thereon. It must strike your Excellency that this is likely to discourage them from suspecting designs, which they must now plainly see never entered into our minds. I hope they will not suspect, or suffer themselves to be made believe, that this was done at the request, or to gratify the most distant wish, of the French court; for the truth is, that it is neither more nor less than a small part of an economical naval regulation.”
M. Moreno will perceive that the above authentic papers, which have been faithfully extracted from the Volumes of Correspondence with Spain, deposited in the State Paper Office, contain no allusion whatever to any secret understanding between the two Governments, at the period of the restoration of Port Egmont and its dependencies to Great Britain, in 1771, nor to the evacuation of Falkland's Islands, in 1774, as having taken place for the purpose of fulfilling any such understanding. On the contrary, it will be evident to M. Moreno, that their contents afford conclusive inference that no such secret understanding could have existed.
The undersigned need scarcely assure M. Moreno, that the correspondence which has been referred to, does not contain the least particle of evidence in support of the contrary supposition, entertained by the Government of the United Provinces of the Rio de la Plata, nor any confirmation of the several particulars related in M. Moreno's note.
The undersigned trusts, that a perusal of these details will satisfy M. Moreno, that the protest which he has been directed to deliver to the undersigned, against the re-assumption of the sovere
81 Hoytred (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 12:09 am Report abuse
sovereignty of the Falkland Islands by his Majesty, has been drawn up under an erroneous impression, as well of the understanding under which the declaration and counter-declaration relative to the restoration of Port Egmont and its dependencies were signed and exchanged between the two courts, as of the motives which led to the temporary relinquishment of those islands by the British Government; and the undersigned cannot entertain a doubt but that, when the true circumstances of the case shall have been communicated to the knowledge of the government of the united provinces of the Rio de la Plata, that government will no longer call in question the right of sovereignty which has been exercised by his Majesty, as undoubtedly belonging to the Crown of Great Britain.
The undersigned requests, &c.
(Signed) PALMERSTON.
Foreign Office, January 8th, 1834

Palmerston has provided a detailed, and very open, refutation of M.Moreno's objection and given all the correspondence appertaining to the agreement with Spain. The British action in 1833 was seen as the recovery of existing rights which Argentina had violated ..... something for your research Axel.
82 gdr (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 07:17 am Report abuse
Hoytred lives in Asia !
who can live in Asia as an UK citizen !
an ambassador official ( may be a secret service member there ) ??
as yu seee the Brits are very careless !!
83 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 07:48 am Report abuse
Axel, I don't know why you call the Pascoe Pepper document mendacious. Perhaps you could explain. I would call it well researched, which is more than I can say for most Argentine documents. What are the references which refute all their points? Perhaps you could share them with us so that we are all enlightened.

Personally, I'm not sure why you go to your chancery. If you want to really research this thing properly and give yourself the opportunity of a completely independent view, you should rather go to your archives. Embassies will simply trot out the Argentine government line. That is their job!

Yes, the 1849 treaty was about navigation, but it was also about settling existing differences. Even you can't get around the fact that Argentina dropped its claim after 1850. I see you try to spin it as “paralysed”, but we all know the claim was dropped, for it to have been paralysed the Argentine government of the time would have make that clear, but it did not. It simply stopped mentioning the claim. It dropped it.

You say that after 1884 there were a “mountain” of claims made by Argentina. You must have new information which nobody else has yet. Perhaps you could share the specifics of these claims? But before you do, just remember that a claim made by a private individual is not an official claim made by a government, so please exclude any made by private individuals because they have no validity.

The allegations by Moreno in his letter to Palmeston has been covered here before and is only half of a conversation anyway. You have to see the full picture, ie how Palmeston replied. I see Hoytred has filled you in. It does not strengthen Argentina's claim, in fact it weakens it considerably.

I don't think I've ever mentioned prescription, so I'm not sure why you bring that up? Anyway, whether acquisitive prescription operates in the Falklands case is an interesting theoretical question. Self determination trumps everything.
84 Christopher UK (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 07:50 am Report abuse
May I thank Hoytred for the posting of the responses from Palmerston they are most helpful and confirm, without doubt, that the UK actions of 1833 were that of a legal police action.
85 LegionNi (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 08:04 am Report abuse
Hoytred 68 - 81 = Case closed.

Bit of gdr style math there.

As Hoytred has clearly been able to show using factual evidence 1833 was a police action to remove an Argentine garrison on British sovereign territory. It also clearly proves to Jorge that the only Pirates trying to steal land were in fact the Argentines.

Its no wonder Argentina would never take the case to the ICJ, they would be laughed out of court.
86 gdr (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 10:38 am Report abuse
LegionNi #85 !

sin68=sin69=sin70=sin71=sin72=sin73=sin74=sin74=
sin76=sin77=sin78=sni79=sin80=sin81 =
87 gdr (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 10:41 am Report abuse
all each =sin (items) =is smaller than -1 - !
then eachs item is worthless !
88 LegionNi (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 11:05 am Report abuse
86 gdr “sin68=sin69=sin70=sin71=sin72=sin73=sin74=sin74=
sin76=sin77=sin78=sni79=sin80=sin81 = ”

87 gdr ”all each =sin (items) =is smaller than -1 - !
then eachs item is worthless ! ”

LOL, so historical facts are worthless? Oh please, please Argentina have GDR represent you at the ICJ.
89 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 11:12 am Report abuse
In the Mid-1880s, freh from annexing Patagonia, the Argentine Government attempted to ressurrect its claim. It was never raised in Congress as the UK gave short shrift to the Argentina attempt.

And Axel, in 1849 the subject of the Falklands was raised in those negotiations and one of the purposes of the treaty was to put an end to that issue. Its reported in Hansard if you wish to check the British archives,
90 LegionNi (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 11:14 am Report abuse
56 jorge “.......“If Argentina is serious about fair and equitable negotiations, then Argentina should first remove this section of text from it's constitution.”......

- That text weren't there till 1994, what did UK do regarding negotiations before that year? NOTHING.”

Actually jorge we did sit down for negotiations in the 60's. They came to nothing. It does illustrate that your wrong again though.
91 jorge! (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 04:22 pm Report abuse
OMG what a big mountain of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone I think Archi-boludazo has talked about Pascue and Pepers saying this is a true document. lol

Pascue and Papers just make stupid comments like “the pope who issued the bules was corrupt” as if that were to make british claim valid. lol
Pascue and Pepers try to discredit historians like Goebels and Groussac saying they were anti-british. Pure ad-hominem!!!
They are full of inacuracies, they present many of the argentine arguments saying they are ridiculous and false without saying why!!! lol
To sum up, they are full of sh*t!!!!

P.S. They said they were going to issue a book with “the truth about Malvinas” during 2009, I'm still waiting ROFLMFAO!!!

90 LegionNi, negotiations came to nothing because you are stuborn, but life will teach you since we are not gonna abandon the claim and we'll do anything we can to make your life as difficult as we can till you sit to negotiate as UN ask!!!

Bye
92 jorge! (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 04:23 pm Report abuse
Oh I forgot,

Malvinas was, is and will be argentineans.

Bye :-)
93 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 04:55 pm Report abuse
Before I start, let me just say that Port Desire was, is and will be British.

Jorgebobo. Pascoe and Pepper wrote that Pope Alexander VI was probably the most corrupt in history, but that was beside the point. The point was the Pope had absolutely no right to give away territory which did not belong to him.
94 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 04:57 pm Report abuse
As for the inaccuracies in the well researched and referenced Pascoe and Pepper doc, you have failed utterly to demonstrate even one single inaccuracy. The inaccuracies and even blatant lies are mostly in the official Argentine government line - the same stuff you parrot here without thinking too hard about it.
95 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) Apr 28th, 2010 - 05:31 pm Report abuse
I wonder how Jorge Rios intends Argentina to make life difficult for us, for instance the islands don't rely upon Argentina for anything!

I would presume it would be like a parrot I had for 20 years, it was an annoying bugger it squawked and it squawked, occasionally bit you, pissed the hell out of you, but you learnt to live with it, and you certainly didn't need anything from it! eventually the squawking stopped when it died

Now Argentina squawks and squawks occasionally nips but in 180 years the islander and the UK have learnt to live with it, and certainly don't need anything from Argentina, and eventually Argentina will die.

The trouble is Jorge you need leverage in todays world to impose your position seeing as Argentina has none over the UK or the islands this should be fun to watch Argentina squawk louder and louder knock over it's food bowls and fly around in circles, and still not get the peanuts, and the UK and the islands shall stand in dignified silence will the parrot has a little tantrum.
96 LegionNi (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:38 am Report abuse
Jorge -“90 LegionNi, negotiations came to nothing because you are stuborn, but life will teach you since we are not gonna abandon the claim and we'll do anything we can to make your life as difficult as we can till you sit to negotiate as UN ask!!!”

We are stubborn?? Negotiation is give and take on both sides Jorge but that is the problem isn't it Argentina only ever wants to take!

Before your cowardly invasion in 82 we had come very close to agreeing joint sovereignty of the islands even discussing the possibility of a phased hand over. How Jorge is that us being stubborn exactly?

We have abided by UN resolutions to negotiate in the past but as Argentina is so stubborn to only every accept one outcome, i.e. complete sovereignty of the islands there is nothing to negotiate any more. Argentina has made the position clear for the whole world to see in the additions to its constitution, another stubborn act which makes it clear Argentina has ZERO interest in real fair and equitable negotiations!

Due to your invason Jorge you have made it impossible for negotiations to ever take place. Our service men fought and died to protect our island and we will not give up that which they fought and died to protect!

What sort of message would it send to the dictators and despots of the world for the UK to sit down and negotiate with you now. It would say to the dictators and despots “Go ahead invade! Doesn't matter if you are defeated, you can just try and force them to negotitate later with lies, deceit and falsehoods!”

The UK and the Falklands have tried to work with Argentina on fisheries, the search for natural resources etc. Remember Jorge it was Argentina how unilaterally tore up the agreement to jointly search for oil resources. That Jorge was a Stubborn act by a stubborn Argentine government!

Yet you have the cheek to call us stubborn?! I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt Jorge, but you sir are an idoit!
97 LegionNi (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 08:21 am Report abuse
1955- Britain tries to bring to the International Court of Justice the question of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands Dependencies but Argentina refuses

That would be Britain being stubborn again would it Jorge?!

1967 - Labour Foreign Secretary George Brown opens sovereignty talks with Argentine Foreign Minister, stating Britain prepared to forego sovereignty if assured the Islanders' rights and way of life will be preserved.

Were we being stubborn again Jorge?!

1971 - Communications Agreement signed between Britain and Argentina forcing travellers to and from the Islands to travel by air via Argentina and requiring Islanders travelling through Argentina to carry Argentine Identity Cards;
Argentina agrees temporarily to shelve their claim to sovereignty while they try to win Islanders over;

Was Britain being stubborn Jorge?!

1976 - British Antarctic Survey ship RRS Shackleton fired-on by Argentine gunboat;
UN Resolution 31/49 urges sovereignty negotiations, and talks between Britain and Argentina resume;

Talks resumed Jorge - How have we refused to abide by UN resolutions?!

1976 - Argentina sets up illegal and clandestine military base on Southern Thule, a Falkland Islands Dependency situated south of South Georgia;

Hardly the act of someone who wishes to negotiate Jorge!

1980 - New talks held between Britain and Argentina in April.

Oh here we are sitting down to negotiate once more Jorge.

1982 - Britain and Argentina resume sovereignty negotiations;
Argentine newspapers threaten military action if talks do not produce results soon

So we are negotiating under the barrel of a gun Jorge! Is that how Argentina negotiates?!

1982 - 2 April to 14 June 1982 Islands occupied by Argentine army until liberated by British Task Force - 257 Britons including 3 Islanders killed in the Conflict .

Now, which country broke up the negotiations by resorting to military means Jorge?!

So I ask again - How are we stubborn exactly?!
98 gdr (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 09:24 am Report abuse
Malvinas oedd,yn a bydd yn Arianin !

byddwn yn troi !
99 LegionNi (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 10:40 am Report abuse
98 gdr - “Malvinas oedd,yn a bydd yn Arianin !

byddwn yn troi ! ”

It doesn't matter if you parrot the Malvinas are Argentine rubbish in English, Spanish, or Welsh gdr, it's still rubbish.

As to we will return. It will be a very cold day in hell first.
100 axel arg (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 03:44 pm Report abuse
J. A. ROBERT, if i go to our chancery, that's because i can find there, the most important facts of the dispute, beside i had the chance to know about the british perspective, i must thank you for that, i have allways studyed about the malvinas's dispute, but since i rode that document i decide to survey more and more.
On monday i will send you many of the clames that we made since 1884 untill 1941, i have no time today, beside i will go tomorrow to the chancery again, because i need more information, i will sen you too the answer of lord palmerston to manuel moreno wrotte in 1849.
About the stoppel, it was never invoked by the u.k. before the negociations with argentina, beside it didn't invoke neather any adquisitive prescription.
About the public international right, there is a british author called ian brownlie, he is an expert in international affears, he wrotte a book called, principles of public international law, he said that there is no place for the adquisitive prescription in the public international right.
I didn't reed hes book, our minister told this, when i go tomorrow, i will search it.
Finally about the treaty to reestablish relations between arg and the u.k. it wasen't invoke neather to use as prescription of our claim.
101 axel arg (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 03:49 pm Report abuse
HOITRED AND JUSTIN, reed the comment that i left for J. A. ROBERT, you will find there my answer, on the other hand, i want to thank to HOITRED for hes information.
102 dab14763 (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 06:26 pm Report abuse
“there is a british author called ian brownlie, he is an expert in international affears, he wrotte a book called, principles of public international law, he said that there is no place for the adquisitive prescription in the public international right.”

In that case you cannot argue that the British claim, in existence since 1690, prescribed against Spain after 1774.
103 jorge! (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:19 pm Report abuse
...“The point was the Pope had absolutely no right to give away territory which did not belong to him.”.....

The Pope didn't give away terretories, just gave Portugal and Spain the right to bring the word of the f*cking church here.

....Before your cowardly invasion in 82 we had come very close to agreeing joint sovereignty of the islands even discussing the possibility of a phased hand over. How Jorge is that us being stubborn exactly?“.....

- After 100 years of ilegal occupation???? are you stupid???

....We have abided by UN resolutions to negotiate in the past but as Argentina is so stubborn to only every accept one outcome, i.e. complete sovereignty of the islands there is nothing to negotiate any more. Argentina has made the position clear for the whole world to see in the additions to its constitution, another stubborn act which makes it clear Argentina has ZERO interest in real fair and equitable negotiations!”......

- That's your dirty excuse not to sit to negotiate. Argentine constitucion is not a gun on your head! Admit it, you are so arrogant that don't want to negotiate.

.....“Due to your invason Jorge you have made it impossible for negotiations to ever take place. Our service men fought and died to protect our island and we will not give up that which they fought and died to protect!”.....

- Well be here not accepting your colony and making you, specially squatters notice we are here not just protesting but taking measures over companies which operates in our country and all kind of measures that undermine your economy. Sorry about that, it's your fault.

......”What sort of message would it send to the dictators and despots of the world for the UK to sit down and negotiate with you now. It would say to the dictators and despots “Go ahead invade! Doesn't matter if you are defeated, you can just try and force them to negotitate later with lies, deceit and falsehoods!”......
104 jorge! (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:30 pm Report abuse
......“What sort of message would it send to the dictators and despots of the world for the UK to sit down and negotiate with you now. It would say to the dictators and despots “Go ahead invade! Doesn't matter if you are defeated, you can just try and force them to negotitate later with lies, deceit and falsehoods!”......

- Argentina is not a dictatorship you ignorant, and the problems you have with other countries and dictators are not of our business, deal with them, surely are also your fault!

....”The UK and the Falklands have tried to work with Argentina on fisheries, the search for natural resources etc. Remember Jorge it was Argentina how unilaterally tore up the agreement to jointly search for oil resources. That Jorge was a Stubborn act by a stubborn Argentine government!“....

- Argentina has made it very clear, it has no problem to cooperate in a number of issues if and only if it help to re-channel the negotiations over soveregnty, you have shown no sign to want to do that during these years, so Argentina withdrew, again your fault!

.....”Yet you have the cheek to call us stubborn?! I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt Jorge, but you sir are an idoit!“......

- You are an ignorant silly!

......1955- Britain tries to bring to the International Court of Justice the question of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands Dependencies but Argentina refuses

That would be Britain being stubborn again would it Jorge?!”.....

- You wanted to include Antartica as part of the dispute alongside part of Tierra del Fuego, you thieves, and Malvinas was not included.

.....“1967 - Labour Foreign Secretary George Brown opens sovereignty talks with Argentine Foreign Minister, stating Britain prepared to forego sovereignty if assured the Islanders' rights and way of life will be preserved.

Were we being stubborn again Jorge?!”....

- Bullshit!!! You stated that but didn't try to progress in the negotiations, that's why no agreement was reached. STILL STUBORN.
105 jorge! (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:46 pm Report abuse
....“1971 - Communications Agreement signed between Britain and Argentina forcing travellers to and from the Islands to travel by air via Argentina and requiring Islanders travelling through Argentina to carry Argentine Identity Cards;
Argentina agrees temporarily to shelve their claim to sovereignty while they try to win Islanders over;

Was Britain being stubborn Jorge?!”.....

- That's was the first time you tried to do something in the right path!

......1976 - British Antarctic Survey ship RRS Shackleton fired-on by Argentine gunboat;
UN Resolution 31/49 urges sovereignty negotiations, and talks between Britain and Argentina resume;

Talks resumed Jorge - How have we refused to abide by UN resolutions?!!“.....

- And the conclution of those talks????

......”1976 - Argentina sets up illegal and clandestine military base on Southern Thule, a Falkland Islands Dependency situated south of South Georgia;

Hardly the act of someone who wishes to negotiate Jorge!“......

- Hypocrite!!! Argentina was more than 100 years protesting peacefully while you turned into a deaf ear!!! You couldn't expect other thing.

.....”1980 - New talks held between Britain and Argentina in April.

Oh here we are sitting down to negotiate once more Jorge.“......

- Negotiate what??????? What was the conclusion of that?????

.......”1982 - Britain and Argentina resume sovereignty negotiations;
Argentine newspapers threaten military action if talks do not produce results soon“......

- Again what negotiations, those were just fruitless talks since no agreement was reached just like the other talks with the exception of those in 1971.

....1982 - 2 April to 14 June 1982 Islands occupied by Argentine army until liberated by British Task Force - 257 Britons including 3 Islanders killed in the Conflict .

Now, which country broke up the negotiations by resorting to military means Jorge?!”....

- Hypocrite!!! after 149 years of ilegal occupation you couldn't expect other thing.
106 jorge! (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:50 pm Report abuse
And a correction to your statement,

1982 - 2 april to 14 June 1982 Islands occupied by Argentine Army untill invaded (again) by British Task Force - 257 Britons including 3 islanders killed (by the british) in the conflict.

That is more correct!!!

......“So I ask again - How are we stubborn exactly?!”....

- Answer: YOU!!!!
107 gdr (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 07:53 pm Report abuse
Malvinas oedd,yn a bydd yn Ariannin !

byddwn yn troi !
108 zethe (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 10:52 pm Report abuse
You are missing the main point of LegionNi's posts. jorge, while also proving him right.

Talks HAVE happened, but as you've displayed here. The only outcome from any talks your nation will take is complete sovereignty. You're acting like a bunch of spoiled kids.

You keep blaming us for the talks not going well, when it's your diplomats which have walked out of talks/ started war over the issue.

What you fail to understand is that although you may think it's our fault, the point is that we don't NEED or WANT anything from you, it is you who want something(which isn't even ours to give - Self determination.). We don't really have to care about your feelings on the matter. But your attitude from you and your government is one of arrogance. You don't have leverage to act like that, you might do better if you humbled yourself. Your current approach clearly is not working.
109 Christopher UK (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 10:53 pm Report abuse
Good grief. None of Jihad Jorge's rebuttals to what Hoyred posted make any sense at all! Poor little victim Argentina - it is all every one elses fault. Rubbish. You have not offered anything that gives a mature rebuttal. All you have offered is to continue to stick your fingers in your ears so that you cannot hear and put your hands over your eyes so that you cannot see. And anyway - as I have said - Argentina has NO say over what happens in the Falklands at all as it cannot prove that it has inhereted Spain's contested title. If there is a debate it is between Spain, UK and the islanders. Spain hasn't made a claim in the UN - and Jihad Jorge sets this as important with regard to Patagonia i.e. no one asking for it back - so no problem.

Argentina should but out of the business of the Falklands as they have no rights there at all. Your claim is not backed up with anything concrete and Spain hasn't left them to you in some spurious will.
110 alexius (#) Apr 29th, 2010 - 11:26 pm Report abuse
Jorge... The more i read of your comments, the more convinced i am to believe, you are paid by the British. The reason of course is, that there is not much (if any) sense or reality neither much truth or REAL facts.
However ,i am in doubt, because the British would probably use a more sophisticated method to get their points/propaganda published . With other words, you are so simple to display. If the “Brits” want to spread misinformation and miscredit, i am not sure you are the right person.
Sorry if they dismiss you, but your comments were to stupid and childish.Normal/educated people with an IQ above 0(zero) can easily
display you.
111 LegionNi (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 07:37 am Report abuse
“......“What sort of message would it send to the dictators and despots of the world for the UK to sit down and negotiate with you now. It would say to the dictators and despots “Go ahead invade! Doesn't matter if you are defeated, you can just try and force them to negotitate later with lies, deceit and falsehoods!”......

- Argentina is not a dictatorship you ignorant, and the problems you have with other countries and dictators are not of our business, deal with them, surely are also your fault!”

You were a dictatorship when you invaded Jorge which was my point, or are you to slow to understand that?

“....We have abided by UN resolutions to negotiate in the past but as Argentina is so stubborn to only every accept one outcome, i.e. complete sovereignty of the islands there is nothing to negotiate any more. Argentina has made the position clear for the whole world to see in the additions to its constitution, another stubborn act which makes it clear Argentina has ZERO interest in real fair and equitable negotiations!”......

- That's your dirty excuse not to sit to negotiate. Argentine constitucion is not a gun on your head! Admit it, you are so arrogant that don't want to negotiate.”

No Jorge it's not an excuse. How can you negotiatie with a party who will only accept one outcome?! You can't and if you think otherwie then you just prove my point that your an idiot.

“....Before your cowardly invasion in 82 we had come very close to agreeing joint sovereignty of the islands even discussing the possibility of a phased hand over. How Jorge is that us being stubborn exactly?“.....

- After 100 years of ilegal occupation???? are you stupid???”

What court or international body has stated our sovereignty and occupation of the islands as illegal Jorge?! If it is illegal then take it to the ICJ. Put up or shut up Jorge.
112 LegionNi (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 07:52 am Report abuse
“....1982 - 2 April to 14 June 1982 Islands occupied by Argentine army until liberated by British Task Force - 257 Britons including 3 Islanders killed in the Conflict .

Now, which country broke up the negotiations by resorting to military means Jorge?!”....

- Hypocrite!!! after 149 years of ilegal occupation you couldn't expect other thing. ”

Again Jorge what court or international body has stated our sovereignty and occupation of the islands as illegal Jorge?! If it is illegal then take it to the ICJ. Put up or shut up Jorge.

“......”1976 - Argentina sets up illegal and clandestine military base on Southern Thule, a Falkland Islands Dependency situated south of South Georgia;

Hardly the act of someone who wishes to negotiate Jorge!“......

”.....”1980 - New talks held between Britain and Argentina in April.

Oh here we are sitting down to negotiate once more Jorge.“......

- Negotiate what??????? What was the conclusion of that?????“

The fact there was no outcome from the negotitations is irrelevant Jorge. We sat down to negotiate as we had been asked to do. No where in any UN resolution does it state the the UK has to give in to everything Argentina wants to resolve the dispute.

- Hypocrite!!! Argentina was more than 100 years protesting peacefully while you turned into a deaf ear!!! You couldn't expect other thing.”

Peacefully?! You fired on one of our ships the same year Jorge. I think someone needs to buy you a dictionary.
113 LegionNi (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 08:13 am Report abuse
100 Christoper UK “And anyway - as I have said - Argentina has NO say over what happens in the Falklands at all as it cannot prove that it has inhereted Spain's contested title. If there is a debate it is between Spain, UK and the islanders. Spain hasn't made a claim in the UN - and Jihad Jorge sets this as important with regard to Patagonia i.e. no one asking for it back - so no problem.”

Interesting point.

Also the Falklands Islands are recognized in the EU Lisbon treaty as a self governing over seas UK territory. As a signatory of the EU Lisbon treaty Spain has therefore recognised UK sovereignty over the islands.
114 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 08:14 am Report abuse
Jorgebobo dijo: “The Pope didn't give away terretories, just gave Portugal and Spain the right to bring the word of the f*cking church here.”

Jorgeboboludo, you have just displaying another example of your vast stupidity.

Please take another look at the Inter Caetera Papal Bull (May 1493) and the Treaty of Tordesillas (June 1494) and I think you'll find that the Pope granted and Spain and Portugal agreed that their “possession” of “discovered lands” was determined by which side of the Tordesillas meridian those lands fell on. Spreading the “word of the church” was merely a by-product...
115 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 08:16 am Report abuse
Funny how Jorge claims to be anti-religion yet quite happily uses an authoritarian religious dictator to justify his imperial fantasies for the islands?

The word irony and fantastic go well together here!
116 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 08:25 am Report abuse
Hmm I agree with Zethe actually Jorge could be a British agent, an agent provocature his imperialistic, facistic and downright bigggoted and thuggish rantings could be a manner in which to make any islander and outsider who sees this blog so disgusted with the attitudes of Argentines that they will never ever consider unification with that country in a million years, and think that Argentina is a country plagued by mad nationalistic zealots cumming in their knickers over a bunch of small islands they have never met or been too and do not allow for any room for compromise or negotiation!

Don't worry Agent Jorge your secret is safe with me!
117 JustinKuntz (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 10:31 am Report abuse
Axel,

For a protest to be effective, it has to be made to the other party. I can pretty much guess whats on your list, as I've seen it before. I would suggest you take it to someone who knows something of International Law, you'll find the list compiled by the Argentine Government won't hold up in court.

And thats an opinion delivered by Dozler.
118 gdr (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 10:56 am Report abuse
i saw the picture of Nicholas at Facebook list !
119 gdr (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 11:09 am Report abuse
#110 Alexius !

yu might be right ! but don't forget somethings ! if yu cautious then
yu perceive our styles easily ! becouse that :
here is not “ scientific discussion” place ! Brits friends talk about
memorized always same things !as yu know “ formal History” can not
be interpreted which are knownable and accessable for anyone !
“interpret” does not mean “ comment” ! really that...
this Malvinas problem not known much and obtained since 200 years
and not clear ........
yu don't know Charles Darwin's life story !? means that ;
yu don't know secrets of Malvinas problem !
120 NicoDin (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 01:37 pm Report abuse
Hahaha...

The yanks wannabe calling Argentina a banana republic. Cuack ?

Are they morons or in UK the poverty had increased so much that the only meal they can get is soup of methadon?

They politician are so dummies that Gordo were caught by the media calling “bigoted woman” to his own electorate. You have to be stupid don’t you?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFl_evwML2M

I worst he has to apologize after, is not amazing?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3F_ly9xSqQ&NR=1

They started to print local currencies to get something to eat:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8261263.stm
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8579476.stm

And the royal family is a shame to themselves Harry calling to a Pakistani “Paki” a very racist language.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykSsutbSTn4

In Argentina he got trouble with a prostitute the girl declared that she never was paid. Ha ha
Stupid and greedy good combination.

This are all the symptoms of a Banana Republic.

And do you know what? Citizens from Banana Republic never realize that and also they live in denial.

Like the poster of this forum for example.
121 gdr (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 02:35 pm Report abuse
#120 ! Brits ” racist approach !

www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=667
122 jorge! (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
jajajajaja NicoDin is right. Those blind british are gonna hit themselves when they realize they are not what they were once long ago.
They are a banana republic!!!!!

........“Funny how Jorge claims to be anti-religion yet quite happily uses an authoritarian religious dictator to justify his imperial fantasies for the islands?

The word irony and fantastic go well together here!”.........

- The pope was authority at the time, it is history, I didn't invent it.
What he said was respected by European powers at the time. Get over it!!!

And I'm Atheist, I don't give a sh*t what the pope says, but you can't change the fact the pope was someone to respect and obey at the time.
123 jorge! (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 03:44 pm Report abuse
This is the final countdown. LOL

www.debtbombshell.com/
124 jorge! (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 04:01 pm Report abuse
LOL. Someone suggested I'm a british agent!
Are you saying UK pay people to post comments on the net????
That's why there is too much british crap here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are several british agents here,

· JK 001, try to pretend he is an historian obssesed with argentine history and a praiser of Carlos Escudé. Also a fascist from the Catholic Church.

· JAR 002, try to pretend he knows everything about Argentina just because he lived here. Couldn't get over his past as a bullied student who was called “Pan Triste” by his partners. LOL

· Rhorie 000 (zero to the left, lol), etc(difficult last name), try to pretend he is just a weed smoker who has nothing in life other than search identities through the net. Also dedicated to search fetiches likes of commentators.

As you can see there are several british agents here, but the weird thing is that british secret agents used to be smart people, I think we are not in old times. :-)
125 jorge! (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 04:06 pm Report abuse
I put aside
Christopher Ball, he is not a secret agent at all. :-)
126 J.A. Roberts (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 04:56 pm Report abuse
And Jorgebobo, who has never been out of South America is an expert on the world - including Anglo-Irish relations. What a laugh!
127 Christopher UK (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 06:07 pm Report abuse
Jihad Jorge ejaculated ”I put aside Christopher Ball, he is not a secret agent at all. :-) ”

So one minute I am this Mr Ball and then the next I am a Mr Williams...seems that I am a master of disguise as you have failed in your attempts to stalk me.
128 jorge! (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
Christine, I'm not trying to stalk you. You used to comment here with that last name remember? Chris Ball.
129 Christopher UK (#) Apr 30th, 2010 - 10:13 pm Report abuse
Jihad Jorge ejaculated “Christine, I'm not trying to stalk you. You used to comment here with that last name remember? Chris Ball.”

Did I? Why would I do that? And why are you trying to stalk me..not interested in your denials as your own posts prove it. Have I hit too near the nerve and you must find out who I am?
130 LegionNi (#) May 01st, 2010 - 11:09 am Report abuse
Jorge “- The pope was authority at the time, it is history, I didn't invent it.
What he said was respected by European powers at the time. Get over it!!!

And I'm Atheist, I don't give a sh*t what the pope says, but you can't change the fact the pope was someone to respect and obey at the time.”

Jorge, you are just showing your ignorance here. England was a Protestant country at the time and still is today. The Pope had ZERO authority over England as we were not a Catholic nation. We did not and do not recognise the Popes authority in an matter what so ever then or now. That is the history Jorge!
131 LegionNi (#) May 01st, 2010 - 11:23 am Report abuse
Jorge “- The pope was authority at the time, it is history, I didn't invent it.
What he said was respected by European powers at the time. Get over it!!!

And I'm Atheist, I don't give a sh*t what the pope says, but you can't change the fact the pope was someone to respect and obey at the time.”

Neither England or France recognised the Papel Bull and as you have stressed yourself on many occasions a country can't be held to a treaty it did not sign, recognise, or was not a party to.

The Papel Bull has ZERO relevance to the Falklands, and the fact that Argentina use this to back up their claim just goes to show who weak it really is.

Anyway the Pope had no right to give away that which was not his. According to the Papel Bull Australia should be split between Spain and Portugal and Japan in its entirety belongs to Portugal!

Is Argentina really expecting anyone to take this seriously?! A Papel Bull which split the world between Spain and Portugal?! Really... thats your argument? Take that to the ICJ jorge. Put up or shut up.
132 Falklands4Ever (#) May 01st, 2010 - 02:56 pm Report abuse
Who gives a damn what an ignorant fool like Jorge Arguello says when he can't even spell Falklands correctly. Just goes to prove the fact that Argentinians are the most intellectually challenged people on Earth.
133 jorge! (#) May 01st, 2010 - 08:02 pm Report abuse
Christine, you hit no nerve. I'm not stalking you, I'm not trying to find out who you are, I think you are giving too much credit to yourself, you are not important.
What would I do if I knew who you are? Nothing!
The only one who could hit you, punch you or destroy you is your old good friend Bin Laden and he will do it. (LOL)

LegionN, Look you stupid animal, you don't want to believe in pope bulls but believe in a f*cking plaque, what's the difference there?, you pig!!!!
134 Christopher UK (#) May 01st, 2010 - 10:08 pm Report abuse
Jihad Jorge ejaculated “Christine, you hit no nerve. I'm not stalking you, I'm not trying to find out who you are,”

Yeah right...we both know different don't we sonny.

Jihad Jorge spat out in rage “I think you are giving too much credit to yourself, you are not important.”

LOL....wink, wink...

Jihad Jorge coughed “What would I do if I knew who you are? Nothing!”

We both know what it is you are up to...denial will get you nowhere;-)

Jihad Jorge squeaked ”The only one who could hit you, punch you or destroy you is your old good friend Bin Laden and he will do it. (LOL)”

Oh dear.... you really are a loser aren't ya sonny.
135 Christopher UK (#) May 01st, 2010 - 10:11 pm Report abuse
Jihad Jorge spat out in a fit of impotent rage “LegionN, Look you stupid animal, you don't want to believe in pope bulls but believe in a f*cking plaque, what's the difference there?, you pig!!!!”

LOL....well, my little piggie friend Jorge, the plaque was an internationally recognised and accepted means of leaving a statement of intent. The papal bull, made by a corrupt Spanish pope, meant nothing but your silly country sets great store upon it.
136 gdr (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 10:18 am Report abuse
ChristonUK#134 !

be very careful !
Al Queda has extraordinary tracing technics in wherever in the World!
they can easily find and determine your place and identities !!
137 J.A. Roberts (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 12:02 pm Report abuse
Yea, exactly GDR, best to be careful. With just a few plus and minus signs Al-Qaeda will be all over you...
138 gdr (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 01:09 pm Report abuse
J.A would you present us your e-mail ?
i want to ask your living adress and come and meet you !?
139 Christopher UK (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 05:32 pm Report abuse
gdr wimpered “be very careful ! Al Queda has extraordinary tracing technics in wherever in the World! they can easily find and determine your place and identities !!”

Nah! Al Quada are so useless all evidence points to them actually being Argentine;-)
140 Christopher UK (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 05:33 pm Report abuse
gdr wimpered “J.A would you present us your e-mail ? i want to ask your living adress and come and meet you !?”

Hey J.A....you have pulled;-)
141 LegionNi (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 07:43 pm Report abuse
Jorge - “LegionN, Look you stupid animal, you don't want to believe in pope bulls but believe in a f*cking plaque, what's the difference there?, you pig!!!!”

Well there is a clearly thought out rebuttal of reasoned debate.

Leaving a plaque claiming sovereignty was standard practice at the time Jorge. A practice that was used by all nations at the time. The Spanish followed the same process when they left the Falklands.

As I said neither England not France accepted the Papel Bull and as you have pointed out yourself you can't be held to something you did not agree to or were party to. This is your own arguement Jorge which you have used several times to explain why Argentina could not be considered a 3rd party in reference to the Nootka convention.

Is this why you are getting angry I wonder? Does it upset you when someone uses your own arguments and logic to again show how weak the Argentine claim is?

If England and France can be held to the Papel Bull something they did not accept or agree to, then Argentina can be held as a 3rd party under the Nootka convention. Either way your own arguments merely weaken the Argentine claim.

If Argentina believes in its case so strongly then it should take it the ICJ. They shut put up or shut up.
142 jorge! (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 11:18 pm Report abuse
LOL. Plaques don't give rights!!!!!!!! If it did, then Spain was the last country which left a plaque, the islands were spanish, not british, you had not rights there in 1833 nor you have them now. I sustain my arguments, Argentina was not a third party according to article 6 of Nootka sound convention and it forbided you to stablish there. So, my pirate friend, with all due respect, take your toys and GET THE F*CK OUT OF THERE!!! :-)
143 jorge! (#) May 02nd, 2010 - 11:20 pm Report abuse
ah Forget ICJ, you can shove it into your ***!!!!!!!!!
144 J.A. Roberts (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 07:10 am Report abuse
“LOL. Plaques don't give rights!!!!!!!! If it did, then Spain was the last country which left a plaque, the islands were spanish, not british...”

Exactly Jorge, they certainly were not Argentine.

“I sustain my arguments, Argentina was not a third party according to article 6 of Nootka sound convention”

Only according to your own personal interpretation of the convention Jorge and no, your argument is not sustainable.
145 J.A. Roberts (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 07:10 am Report abuse
“ah Forget ICJ, you can shove it into your ***!!!!!!!!!”

Of course Jorge, because if Argentina too her Falklands claim to the ICJ it would be laughed out of court.
146 Christopher UK (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 10:19 am Report abuse
Jihad Jorge - the lover of the corrupt - ejaculated in a fit of impotent rage “ah Forget ICJ, you can shove it into your ***!!!!!!!!!”

COWARD!!!! You know that such an international court would laugh at your spurious claim to the Falklands - and wouldn't even consider your even more spurious claim to South Georgia etc. The ICJ reaction to your silly claim would be final and in the full glare of international publicity. From that point you would not be able to confuse those few in South America who, for their own reasons, declare support for your silly claim. They would run a mile from you. In fact - this is the only route your pathetic government has isn't it. Keep it out of the courts and play the victim and hope that others feel sorry for you and don't look too deep into the facts. I say it again - COWARDS!
147 Christopher UK (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 10:22 am Report abuse
Jihad Jorge - the supporter of baby killers and friend of the corrupt - wrote ”So, my pirate friend, with all due respect, take your toys and GET THE F*CK OUT OF THERE!!! :-)”

Well my pirate friend - if you think that you have a case - take us to court and see if they will evict us! What - you won't you say. Of course not - you know that the UK has the deeds and is rightful owner.
148 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 01:43 pm Report abuse
Ah Agent parrot, this is gold dust, the mission is suceeding better than expected! By pretending to be an Argentine and arguing like you do we have convinced everyone that Argentines are losers and cannot come up with any coherent arguement accept to insult people by calling them weed smokers, truly classic Agent parrot, what fool would stupid enough to have a debate with a weed smoker apart from Argentines.

And also declaring anybody who disagrees with the Argentine claim in Argentina as a facist, genius Agent parrot! This will be good at proving that all Argentines are facistic dictators who cannot accept even democratic people deciding their own choice in life.

as for the fantastic coup de grace you came up with by pretending that you search for naked British soldiers on the net because you've never touched a girl, wonderful, and your made up sexual fantasies about being spanked by your mother.

And who can forget, by making it seem like Argentines despite being secular use the pope as a means of justifying ownership of the islands, amazing!

Keep up the good work Agent parrot, her majesties shillings shall be reaching you shortly!
149 agent0060 (#) May 03rd, 2010 - 05:06 pm Report abuse
Ladies and gentlemen. Diverting as they are, I believe it is time to bring to a close our comments that include jorge! and his compatriots, wherever they appear on Mercopress. Our thanks should go to Hoytred for his research and posts. He might want to consider forwarding that research to the UN Secretary-General, the Security Council and the General Assembly. I recommend that wherever jorge! and his compatriots (identifiable by nonsensical and hysterical contributions) involve themselves, they should simply be ignored, although it might be appropriate to copy their comments to Argentine psychiatric institutions. Their comments could be copied to the ICJ to prepare them for Argentine rantings.
Responding to the psychotic encourages them. Ignore them and they may go away. I realise that it is tempting to educate, but psychotics cannot be educated, they can only be cured or allowed to expire.
150 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) May 04th, 2010 - 09:46 am Report abuse
here here Agent 0060 but it just so fun, it only takes so much before Agent parrot pretending to be an Argentine and collapses in a fake psychotic fit on the floor frothing at the mouth rubbing his genitals madly with a map of the Malvinas, squawking madly like a deluded parrot.

Agent parrot does a very good job when he constructs these mad squawkings, he had me convinced for a couple of months that he was in fact a genuine Argentine! Of course it got me thinking after speaking to genuine Argentines, that people like Jorge who profess to be so stupid and such mindless biggots deviod of any inepedndent thought squawking the same regurgitated government lines ad nauseuam without taking one step back and analysing the situation in a rational manner.

made me convinced he is in fact a British agent pretending to be an argentine, code named Parrot, whose sole mission is to demonstrate that Argentine attitudes over this dispute are so irrational as to convinced the rest of humanity that the best thing for Argentina is to be locked in a cage where they squawk all they want but can't fly around causing mayhem!

Here is Agent Parrots current disguise, you can find him at Comodoro Rivadavia zoo in the parrot section.

blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/Parrot.jpg
151 jorge! (#) May 05th, 2010 - 04:54 pm Report abuse
jajajaja what a laugh you pirates are!!!!

I post my comments just like all of you. You are not requested to respond them. F**k off!

Rhaurie, your game is boring now, come up with something more original!

Malvinas Argentinas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FIG does not exist, ICJ has no say on this! Pirates!
152 Rhaurie-Craughwell (#) May 05th, 2010 - 10:42 pm Report abuse
Ah excellent agent Parrot, your acting skills truly can make people believe that all Argentines think like you irrational and beyond any reasoned argument!

Keep up the good work HM the Queen will reward you in good time!

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