Wednesday, October 31st 2012 - 23:01 UTC

Falklands’ proposed referendum question enters public consultation period

The Falkland Islands government has opened a public consultation on the proposed referendum question on the Falklands Political Status to be held in early 2013. The proposed question was arrived at and agreed by all members of the Legislative Assembly having received expert advice on the issue.

The Falklands population and the ballot box hand in hand

In its presentation the question says that “given Argentina is calling for negotiations over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, this referendum is being undertaken to consult the people regarding their views on the political status of the Falkland Islands”.

The referendum question reads: Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?

The two reply options are YES and NO.

To the second option, the FIG states that “should the majority of votes cast be against the current status, the Falkland Islands Government will undertake necessary consultation and preparatory work in order to conduct a further referendum on alternative options”.

In the consultation process the public are asked to comment on two points: the clarity of the wording of the question and the clarity of choice offered by the question.

FIG says that comments should be made in writing or emailed: REFERENDUM CONSULTATION, Gilbert House, Stanley. Comments should be received by no later that 1630 on Friday 16th November.

The full text of the proposed question is as follows:

“The current political status of the Falkland Islands is that they are an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom. The Islands are internally self-governing, with the United Kingdom being responsible for matters including defence and foreign affairs. Under the Falkland Islands Constitution the people of the Falkland Islands have the right to self-determination, which they can exercise at any time. Given that Argentina is calling for negotiations over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, this referendum is being undertaken to consult the people regarding their views on the political status of the Falkland Islands. Should the majority of votes cast be against the current status, the Falkland Islands Government will undertake necessary consultation and preparatory work in order to conduct a further referendum on alternative options.

“Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?”

The release states that following the Public Consultation period, the question will be formally adopted by Executive Council on 21st November.

The question will be available with a list of Public Meetings in a separate one-page document alongside the Penguin News on Friday 2nd November. It will also be shown as an advert on FITV, and will be read periodically on the radio.

The Falklands’ population will be able to discuss the question with Members of the Legislative Assembly at a series of Public Meetings both in the Camp and Stanley and there will also be an open radio discussion.
 

202 comments Feed

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1 Pirate Love (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:11 pm Report abuse
wait i thought they were all hostages being held by the nasty british!!
it would seem not.
2 Guzz (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:15 pm Report abuse
Seriously, why even bother, the entire planet already knows the outcome of this...
3 Islas Malvinas (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:19 pm Report abuse
Referendum?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV0bANR4LPc
4 Joe Bloggs (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:36 pm Report abuse
2 Guzz

So are you saying the Argentine ambassador in the US is lying when he says we are being held hostage in the island by the British military? Because that is what he repeatedly says.
5 Pirate Love (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:37 pm Report abuse
@2 apparently argentina refuses to acknowledge what the whole planet knows, and because they can hold the referendum is the whole point, they can chose without persuasion or intimidation its called democracy and the freedom to chose, someone needs to wake up argentina before they miss another boat.
6 Guzz (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:46 pm Report abuse
Brits voting to remain Brits or be exchanged by other Brits...
7 Anbar (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:52 pm Report abuse
“Seriously, why even bother, the entire planet already knows the outcome of this...

and yet ....

------

”So are you saying the Argentine ambassador in the US is lying when he says we are being held hostage in the island by the British military? Because that is what he repeatedly says.”

erm... was that serious?

(I mean, c'mon, nobody could be that daft could they? Not in this day & age... got a link?)
8 Joe Bloggs (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:53 pm Report abuse
6 Guzz

Does your answer above mean you DO believe the deadbeat Argentine ambassador in the US when he says we are being held hostage here by the British military?

Chuckle chuckle
9 Guzz (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:55 pm Report abuse
Not hostages, blood dependent...
10 Joe Bloggs (#) Oct 31st, 2012 - 11:58 pm Report abuse
7 Anbar

Here's one link. Let me know if you'd like more.

en.mercopress.com/2011/11/10/arguello-named-as-the-next-argentina-ambassador-in-washington#
11 JoJo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:20 am Report abuse
actually Guzz and others...

The question reads: Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?
The two reply options are YES and NO.

Do we want to retain the current political status (with all the political rights of self determination etc. that this brings) or not. It doesn't say whether we want to remain British or not, although admittedly that is inherent to the status. If the overwhelming answer is yes, then the Falkland Islanders can continue to determine their own future, including deciding whether they want to remain British, become Argentine or become independent in due course.

I personally think it is a fair and good question, and everyone has the right to say yes or no!
12 Conor J (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:22 am Report abuse
@10
How are they blood dependent? The Falklands have had limited migration from the UK and other places yet their population size has gone one way, Up.
13 briton (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:23 am Report abuse
Brits voting to remain Brits or be exchanged by other Brits...
Nothing wrong in that,

Its like asking Patagonians if they wish to remain argentine, and conducted by argentines, seems fair to me.
.
14 Guzz (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:25 am Report abuse
12
It can't really go down, can it? Doesn't all visitors pass Mount Shagasheep?
15 Conor J (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:26 am Report abuse
@14
I've noticed that when you lose an argument you make a joke, Blood dependent my arse.
16 JoJo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:29 am Report abuse
I have a good suggestion for an argentine referendum:

do you want the inflation rate to stay at less than 5% p/a (yes/no)
17 Guzz (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:33 am Report abuse
Bet most of you find your man/wife abroad...
Bet your youths leaves for UK and usually stay in the big city...
Bet your community is nice, tidy, peaceful, but ageing...
Bet you are blood dependant...
18 JoJo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:37 am Report abuse
you should read the referendum, you might find it enlightening.

and remember, we're all ageing...and all dependent on blood (except the low blood pressure chick in charge of your joke of a country!)
19 Islander1 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:15 am Report abuse
GUzz- actually the vast majority of our young folk who go to the UK for University etc DO return, not all straight away(we want them to get experience anyway) but certainly within 3-5 years or so of qualifying.
Last census earlier this year gave a younger population average than the previous one I recall.
Please explain “blood dependent”? -= population here is of some 20 plus nationalities on averge.
Is Argentina going to take part in the referendum - she will be entitled to send a lobby team here to make her case.
20 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:36 am Report abuse
I would suggest adding three questions to the referndum:

1) Will we continue begging to the nasty and despictable Argentine people the favor to let us use their airspace and sea? Or will we, once and for all, grow up and be proud enough as to manege on our own?

2) Are we going to demand the UK to extend this referemdum to the Ghagos Islands people?

3) Are we going to start paying the support of the military base, war- ships and aircraft or we would prefer to remain as burden on UK taxpayers?
21 Pirate Love (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 03:54 am Report abuse
@20 why would any of those questions be added they are argentine rhetoric and i do believe The Falklands has nothing to do with argentina at all this is for the inhabitants of the islands alone.
1-The falklands havent begged for anything from argentina who last time i looked was itself begging for money to the IMF, remember? what you will find is argentina is actually commiting economic interference and threats towards the peaceful folk of The Falklands
2- yes ghagos islands was pretty appauling, however they were compensated and i do believe nobody was killed in the process, but please feel free to tell us about argentinas cleaner than clean past for example “The conquest of the desert” remember the genocide of hundreds of thousands of indigenous peoples for their land by the very same person you celebrate printed on your money, and their is always the “death flights” what was that about??
3- im a uk tax payer, and we have some of the best kit in the world to keep countries with expansionist ideas like argentina at bay, worth every penny especially if we get to use it on enemies :) and i still have enough money to go abroad 3 times a year hows that for burden, talking about burden whats argentinas inflation official/unofficial now that is a burden :)

roll on 2013 democracy in action

SELF-DETERMINATION RULES!!!
22 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 05:37 am Report abuse
@20 pgerman

This seems to anger you for some reason - is it because you are a 'Malvinista', determined that the Falklands should surrender sovereignty to Argentina ?

1)“ Will we continue begging to the nasty and despictable Argentine people the favor to let us use their airspace and sea? Or will we, once and for all, grow up and be proud enough as to manege on our own?”

It seems that The Falklands don't need you anymore. You took your ball and went home.
Chile gets the money and economic benefits you once did.
Now, we keep hearing stories in Mercopress about how proud the Falklands will be to have their own Deepwater Port. In addition to servicing the oil industry, it will likely syphon off some revenue from BA, like the new port in Uruguay will, as well.
The cruise industry should increase as well, and, is this the real reason you are upset, Falklands and her facilities will become a supply base and springboard to the Antarctic.
Sorry, no revenue for Argentina, they're sulking at home.

2) Are we going to demand the UK to extend this referemdum to the Ghagos Islands people?

What does that have to do with the Falklands or Argentina, for that matter. Sounds like a UK - Chagos concern.

3) Are we going to start paying the support of the military base, war- ships and aircraft or we would prefer to remain as burden on UK taxpayers?

Jealous, angry, thwarted in your opportunity to march in if the Brit military were not there, as Puricelli stated he would?
Your question was answered in the wording of the Referendum, “United Kingdom being responsible for matters including defence and foreign affairs”, just as it always has been - UK seems fine with that. I'm sure they would rather pay for them to stay if they have to. Better than having your military take their place and extract taxes to cover it, and perhaps some more for a clinic in Salta, or new designer plumbing for the Casa Rosada, etc.

You 're jealous. Stick to writing your revisionist history, in Vancouver.
23 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:52 am Report abuse
I trust the experts weren't paid for their advice. Then again, if they were truly experts it's a shame their advice wasn't taken. The woolly, inaccurate and transitory introduction leads to a question that is almost as bad as the introduction. “Do you wish the Falkland Islands to remain an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?” might be seen as having rather more certainty about it than the version offered.
24 agent999 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:45 am Report abuse
@23
So you are now the real expert - if you are truly an expert that is.
25 Musky (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 09:04 am Report abuse
@2 Guzz
You really must keep on top of things, argentine rhetoric is part of the reasoning to have a referendum. Your government says that the islanders are forcibly held. Your government has said this and it has been a point of contention with the UN C24 committee whose very remit is to free indigenous peoples from the yoke of colonialism. C24 these days is a total joke and argentina is bent on using the C24 to get sovereignty over the islands, to effectivily recolonise it and to remove self determination from its inhabitants. The referendum will reveal the truth about the island's true status and the freedom of the people there. Argentina will futher be diminshed in its strength of argument, which was pitiful in any case. It's money well spent!

@23 DoD
I prefer the question - Do you want to stick with the UK (stable, reliable, capable and confident) or go with Argentina (unstable, unreliable, weak, virtually despotic) ?
26 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 09:23 am Report abuse
@24 And a very good morning to you too. By my qualifications, experience and competencies, I do believe I am, if only by comparison with the Hon members of the Assembly.

@25 I see you too have the Argentina fixation that so clearly afflicts the members of the Assembly. In my (expert) opinion the first objective is to get the FI off the UN list of NSGT, not make a cheap point about the relative merits of the UK and Argentina. Still, I'm sure your subsequent e-mail, letter and verbal intervention in one of the public meetings will make a bigger difference than anything I write here.
27 Think (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 09:48 am Report abuse
TWIMC
Just before leaving............

The question is:
“Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current Political Status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?”

Chuckle chuckle©

This question will most certainly show the Rest of the World what an “Independent Country” the Malvinas Islands are!

Gone flyfishing.....
El Think
28 HansNiesund (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 10:28 am Report abuse
@20 pgerman

Can you provide an example of the Falklands begging favors from the Republic of Argentina?

It's true of course that there may have been expectations at one time that Argentina would honor the agreements it has entered into, but I think we all recognize by now that expecting Argentina to honor an agreement would be like, well, expecting Argentina to honor an agreement.
29 lsolde (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:00 am Report abuse
So what, Think.
Thats the way we want it & its got SFA to do with you or your jealous country.
@26Dod,
Well l couldn't care less about your “qualifications, experience or competency”
You don't live here so its got SFA to do with you either.
Both of you, butt out.
30 Monty69 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:09 am Report abuse
26 Doveoverdover
''By my qualifications, experience and competencies, I do believe I am,[an expert] if only by comparison with the Hon members of the Assembly.''

Well no. To represent the people of the Falkand Islanders, you have to be a Falkland Islander, to have some experiecnce of the Falklands gained somewhere other that a place that routinely refers to Falkland Islanders in racist and derogatory terms, and be competent to act in the best interests of the people. I guess that last bit goes with actually having some knowledge of what our best interests might be.
So you might well be an expert, in something, but whatever it is, I don't imagine we'll be discussing it here.

I haven't decided what I think of the question yet. It has deliberately left in some wiggle room because that's what people wanted, but a significant no vote could be misinterpreted as some kind of vote in favour of Argentina.
31 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:48 am Report abuse
Looking forward to a vibrant No campaign =) Btw, even if the people voted No to this question, would you then negotiate with Cristina or just say the options are now joining the UK or idependence??
32 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:56 am Report abuse
Many in this forum already know me and they know that I am far from being a stupid malvinista. They know the way I appreciate and admire british culture.

I would respect the political self-determination of the people of FI from the day the same concept were applied to all territories under their control onwards.

I will seriously think that the UK is being honest about the defense of FI people self-determination the day the Chagossians were able to freely return to their land and vote their self-determination as do the citizens of Vancouver or of Argentina

In the meanwhile I would consider it just a rhetoric and hypocresy of the old empire to retain the natural resources of the South Atlantic Ocean. I will extend the same concept to people who usually write in this forum.

Mr. Pirate Love , it's quite evident that you have not any idea about Argentine history and you know nothing about the Conquest of the Desert. Please, try not to screw it up with this.
33 Foxtrot Indigo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:04 pm Report abuse
@31
Don't hold your breath honey I very much doubt anyone here will be swayed by the RGs after your so-called president's campaigne to take away all our human rights and destory our economy. (not that she succeed on any count)

If the people here wanted to be RG's (as if) the UK govenment and FIG would respect that. But ask yourself this sweetie...if FIG thought it possible there would be a majority 'no' vote, would they risk having a referendum?
34 Benson (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:32 pm Report abuse
@9 Not hostages, blood dependent...
Guzz is right we are blood dependant, we depend on the UK to stop the Argies spilling ours.
35 Pirate Love (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 12:58 pm Report abuse
@27
when did The Falklands state their desire for independance????

I thought the worldwide understanding was that they wish to remain a SELF-GOVERNING Overseas territory they made that more than clear, however not clear enough for you.

SELF-DETERMINATION!! Rules!!
36 Anbar (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:07 pm Report abuse
@ pgerman -
4) Will the neo-colonialists (and historical colonisers) of South America be running a referendum on giving the land back to the indigenous South-american tribes?

yes?

no?

...thought so....

*sigh*

I dont dislike Argentines, all theones I know personally are fine, fine people, but by-god some of their supporters on these forums are imbeciles. (not that that trait is reserved to the Argentine supporters mind you, but change the bleeding record m8 - it was old & tired the first time around... when you can come back with your own clean & perfect hsitory THEN you get to have the moral high-horse back, until then live by your own standards or sthu)
37 Pirate Love (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:21 pm Report abuse
@32 so am i wrong about the conquest of the desert and the genocide committed by the argentines upon the indigenous tribes for their land????

sad thing is they didnt just do this once Argentina committed genocide twice on the same peoples within 50 years, need links or are you able to research it yourself??

do you see my point dragging up history is dangerous business especially if yours is a lot worse!! but to deny true events in history ever happened screws up the very fibre of your arguement :) (Still need those links?)

SELF-DETERMINATION!! (its a pity argentina never gave this right to the indigenous peoples, terrible act of genocide)
38 gustbury (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:25 pm Report abuse
Obviously, it's a stupid question!!
39 Conqueror (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:30 pm Report abuse
@2 It's simple, Guzzle. The Islanders, who are organising and conducting the referendum under international observation, are going to show the world that they are free. That they will not be colonised by argieland. That they are a British Overseas Territory by choice. Because they need protection against the genocides across the water. And that argieland will not be allowed to evade the provisions of the UN Charter. It may also be an opportunity to show how argieland is conducting economic warfare and bullying against a peaceful people.
@3 I know. It's a loong word, isn't it?
@4 Wasn't it PutridJelly that said that?
@6 Since CFK buys votes with food and money, why would you have a problem?
@9 So PutridJelly was lying? Or brain-dead? Or both?
@14 Mount Shagasheep? So THAT's what the argie wankers were up to?
@17 Desperation, Guzzle. Pure desperation. Is it not time for you to do the “honourable” thing? Seppuku? Or cut your throat? Or put a bullet through your “brain”? You can still be “useful”. Recycling can even deal with organic waste these days. And, as you know, you are organic waste!
@20 Or, alternatively, in order to maintain “like for like” treatment, should we arrange for the bombing of argieland? Should we ban anything “argie” from OUR Islands? Including shooting every argie “citizen” that ever steps ashore, blowing any argie aircraft that enters our airspace apart and sinking any argie vessel that is seen. And should we demand the US$1 million per Islander in reparations?
@26 An “expert” is a has-been drip under pressure.
@27 Good luck catching those flies. Tomorrow's lunch are they?
@28 How about “expecting argieland to honour an agreement” would be like “expecting argieland to pay a debt” or “expecting argieland to respect a court judgement”.
@31 A “vibrant No campaign”? Both of them? Ahahahahahahahahaha!!!
@32 Your comments simply display your ignorance. There are no “Chagossians” and there never have been!
@38 Your level, then!
40 gustbury (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:44 pm Report abuse
39@-I prefer to be stupid but nota stooge psychopath like you!! :)
41 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 01:53 pm Report abuse
Pirate Love, I would apreciate if you would like to discuss in this forun about the alledged genocide. Would you? Te person by the name of “Think” was a little bit scared when I challenged him to do so.

Would you start with your presentation of arguments?

regards
42 Pirate Love (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 02:03 pm Report abuse
@41 nothing to argue the events happened, however what part of genocide would you like to change??
43 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 02:45 pm Report abuse
Dear Pirate Love, again you have the very same attitude of denying a public discussion of ideas and knowledge. Are you afraid of anything?

As any regular person I would like that genocides never happened all around the World. I'm including the ones that the UK is responsible for...in Africa, Mid East, Asia.

In addition, I'm not a “kirchnerista” at all so I don't want to change the past, just to the contrary, I want to see it the way it was. Whitout lies.

I'm disappointed that you prefer to run away for a nice discussion about the Argentine history. It's sad.
44 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 02:53 pm Report abuse
@32 pgerman

“I will seriously think that the UK is being honest about the defense of FI people self-determination the day the Chagossians were able to freely return to their land and vote their self-determination as do the citizens of Vancouver or of Argentina

In the meanwhile I would consider it just a rhetoric and hypocresy of the old empire to retain the natural resources of the South Atlantic Ocean. I will extend the same concept to people who usually write in this forum.”

pgerman, to your credit, we know you are not a mindless La Campora troll.

However, you do have your own agenda,which includes the Falklands - a 'Malvinista' by definition.

Resources?? No, this is about the home of the Falklanders which they have had for nearly 200 years continuously.
The current dispute and Argentinisn siege of the islands predates the discovery of significant oil resources within their waters. To clarify, there is no claim for the balance of offshore South Atlantic oil resources.
Argentina has their own huge resources on their mainland and offshore - no financing to extract it.

Too bad if you have a problem with the Chagos - not related to the Falklsnds or Argentina on the other side of the world. The Fslklanders ARE the indigenous inhabitants, your murky 'expulsion' claims not withstanding, and they still live there.
Additionally, their sovereignty is threatened by a hostile neighbour, unlike the The Isle of Man, and Chagos.

If you feel there is some injustice in the Chagos, please note @21 Pirat-Love, some Indians have returned and reparations have been made.
You should be celebrating the confirmation of The Falklands right to self-determination, if as you say, the other BOT's are not being served properly by the UK and the UN.
45 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 04:23 pm Report abuse
@19 and 29. Get your story together team. Either non-residents have a dog in this fight or they don't. I think your a bunch of ungrateful British colonists and Think thinks you are squatters on Argentinian land. So, thanks but butting out isn't an option, other than for a short spot of well earned leave of course.

@30. I can always look to you for a well reasoned and pithy response but I wouldn't describe Lookout Camp and the MPA Death Star as hot beds of racism and derogatory assessments of the locals. Must have changed since my day.
46 rule_britannia (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 04:28 pm Report abuse
Argentine Referendum 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016.... until we get the result we want really.

QUESTION : “Do you want to be part of Argentina?”
ANSWER: “YES” or “SÍ”

Note: It doesn't really matter what you want - only what we want. Votes that do not have either “YES” or “SÍ” clearly ticked will be counted as AFFIRMATIVE votes.
47 Foxtrot Indigo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 04:38 pm Report abuse
@ 37 Pirate Love

What the f* is your problem? I live in the Falklands and I support the right to self dermination because its my damn life that the RGs are threatning! How about you live in a country all your life that another bigger nation is threatning before you start being all high and mighty huh?

I believe that independence is somehting we CAN achieve if we put our minds to it but not yet. We are not ready and independence is not something any country should just rush into.
48 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 04:42 pm Report abuse
Dear Trot Tempest

The UK is a country with very rich history and experience in this type of conflicts. The proven existence of natural resources (or the speculation of it) is some decades old within the Falklands area. It's also a “gateway” to the Antarctic. It is clearly a “bet” and investment on the future of the white continent. Both Argentina and the UK have never ignored it. Today the conflict is fueled by a political needs of both governments that want to distract public opinion from its economic crisis. In this point it's quite clear that CFK has more urgent needs and she loves to show it as an external conflict, a kind of an “imperialist aggression” against her project of a “country without capitalism”. It's part of her show.

The Chagos issue has too many points in common with the Falklands to be ignored. The contradiction of UK is quite obvious. It's something very rare in a nation very skilled and consistent in its international relations.

“Malivinistas” are fanatic people who believe that these kind of conflicts are kind of football game. That will be settled shouting patriotic slogans, insulting and despising the opponent.

I'm not a Malvinista at all basically because I believe that the respect for the islanders rights is vital in this matter. Moreover, taking into account the current political and economic situuacion in Argentina just a group of fools would want to be part of the country now. I myself would suggest them to stay away from Argentina for decades until it returns to be a rational country.

But these conflicts must be thought and analyzed in mid/long term horizont. As in Hong Kong, a good agreemtn would benefit the parties involved. Many Argentines think like me, is a shame that their opinions never reach the media or are published.

I also understand it is imposble that 3,000 “regular” tax-payer can pay for the acquisition and afford the maintenance of four Typhoon aircrafts, nuclaer submarines and frigates and build a military base.
49 malicious bloke (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 05:00 pm Report abuse
“Both Argentina and the UK have never ignored it. Today the conflict is fueled by a political needs of both governments that want to distract public opinion from its economic crisis.”

Major news outlets in the UK rarely mention the issue, in all honesty. There was some coverage for the 30th anniversary of the liberation this year and one story on the nightly news when the referendum was announced and that's about it. Why do you think we all come to mercopress? It's virtually the only english-language news service that regularly covers the Falklands.

“As in Hong Kong, a good agreemtn would benefit the parties involved.”

Hong Kong was a lease and the lease was up. We didn't have a legal case or realistic chance of holding onto it. The case is completely different from the Falklands. Besides, neither the UK or the Islands have anything tangible to gain from a handover of sovereignty. It's why the Argentine calls for “negotiations” are so laughable. Argentina brings nothing to the table but demands and empty threats.
50 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 05:10 pm Report abuse
@49

If you want to read about the issue with the Argentine vision, I would suggest the web-site of the Buenos Aires Herald. A very good Argentine newspaper in English originally published by the large community of British people living in Buenos Aires.
51 Monty69 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 05:52 pm Report abuse
45 Doveoverdover
I imagine it has changed since your day. The term 'Benny' certainly lost its impact once we started using it on ourselves.
Although I have never experienced anything other than courtesy and consideration from anyone in either place, I am sensing a less than positive vibe from you.
I recently did a training course with someone who was here with the military 20 odd years ago, and spent the first couple of days listening with amazement to his views on Falkland Islanders. Since he served in submarines and only came ashore once, I couldn't help wondering where that view came from. Most of it sounded like chinese whispers to me, with every minor mistake by any local being magnified into a dreadful national failing and a lack of gratitude. Some of it just wasn't true.

I've met a lot of veterans now and haven't sensed anything like that from them. They experience our gratitude when they come here but that isn't what they are after. They want to see us taking control and doing well and making the most of what we have.

If you really did find your bitter and twisted attitude under a gooseberry bush, then fine.
52 LEPRecon (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 05:56 pm Report abuse
@48 - pgerman

The Falklands and the Chagos Islands cannot be compared because the situations are completely different.

I know this is probably difficult for you to grasp, but try it. There is no fresh water ANYWHERE in the Chagos Islands. It ALL has to be imported.

When there were plantations on the islands, people (whom we now call the Chagos Islanders) were paid to work on them. When these plantations were no longer commercially viable, the owners shut them down and left. Since there were no more plantations there was no fresh drinking water imported. The Chagosians themselves didn't have the capital (in other words the money) to pay for a continuous supply, or build a desalination plant.

So should the British government have just left them there to die of thirst?

Every single Chagos Islander was compensated for the removal from the Islands.

I'm not saying I agree with what happened, but the Chagosians were NOT self sufficient, and couldn't survive with outside assistance and finance.

The Falklands are completely self sufficient and don't actually require outside help to continue as a community. Their community makes enough money to buy any food substances and goods that they need.

So your constantly saying the Falklanders haven't got any rights because of what happened in the Chagos islands is erroneous and completely childish.

Also Argentinians stole all the land that is now called Argentina and colonised it. They continued colonising land long after they had declared independence from Spain. They murdered the native inhabitants of that land long after they had declared independence from Spain.

So Argentina is hypocritical in this matter, because it is the only one that wants to colonise territory and impose their will on or ethnically cleanse the people in that territory.

The people of the Falklands have the right to choose their own future, in line with the charter of the UN.
53 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:09 pm Report abuse
@48 pgerman

“ taking into account the current political and economic situuacion in Argentina just a group of fools would want to be part of the country now. I myself would suggest them to stay away from Argentina for decades until it returns to be a rational country.”

“I also understand it is imposble that 3,000 “regular” tax-payer can pay for the acquisition and afford the maintenance of four Typhoon aircrafts, nuclaer submarines and frigates and build a military base.”

You have also said, “think in the long term”

That's what it looks like the Falkland Islanders are doing, and your assertion,
“ I believe that the respect for the islanders rights is vital in this matter”, leads me to wonder, what was the point of your previous post??

The economic and political reasons for Argentina to want the islands are well understood and obvious. They are being 'deprived' of nothing.
The Falklanders want to stay in their land and homes of the past 2oo years.
Why shouldn't they exploit the natural resources of their home ??
54 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:15 pm Report abuse
@Leprecon

Your arguments about the island of Chagos and their inhabitants are inconsistent. The action of the UK includes the failure of fulfillment of two UN resolutions.

The current economic self-sufficiency of the people of the FI is the result of a kind of “subsidy” received from the UK in terms of military defense and monitoring of the EEZ by the UK armed forces.

I love that you seem to be willing to discuss with me details of Argentine history. In particular about the so-called “Desert Campaign” that is one of the topics that have always felt more attraction and interest.

You are more than welcome, what particular issue do you want to discuss? Is there a character that you are interested in? When do we start? right now?
55 Joe Bloggs (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:17 pm Report abuse
51 Monty69

Take no notice of the deadbeat. He is bitter and twisted but not representative of the UK public. If he was they'd be rioting in the streets.

Back on topic: what do you make of the question? I think it's perfectly adequate and should do the job nicely.
56 agent999 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:42 pm Report abuse
@52 LEPRecon

Well stated facts about the Chagos Islands.

@54pgerman
Your whole comment makes no sense and in no way is a response to @52.
57 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:44 pm Report abuse
As always the chagos issue is a red herring. From the argetnine argument it would appear the right thing to do is to remove the Chagossians, compensate them and then allow a US base to be established. So does that mean they want the British government to remove the falklanders, compensate them and then allow a US base to be built on the FI.
If they are saying the removal of the Chagos peoiple was wrong then surely allowing the falkland islanders to live in peace and provide a suitable defence against a proven agressive nation is the right thing.
58 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 06:46 pm Report abuse
@55 I see you haven't mellowed since you received the good news. It certainly hasn't improved your judgment any if you think that the question is perfectly adequate. I'll be surprised and disappointed if the Governor doesn't make full use of the “wriggle room” so cleverly left him by the Assembly members to turn it into something a UK diplomat would be happy to present to a group of his peers in New York.
59 KFC de Pollo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:20 pm Report abuse
@50 i wouldn't call the Buenos Aires Herald a good newspaper. It seems to be written by the campora putting through propaganda through google translate!

Some of the opinion pieces on the side are properly written but apart from that its really not worth reading.
60 Tinx (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:23 pm Report abuse
What many ex-parte/frantically comments here.

Diego Garcia/Chagossian People ........
We can say about just deception of British Stategies on everywhere.

The legacies of colonialism have shaped the state of human existence today....Matters such as poverty ,inequality,oppression are deeply rooted in colonial history.

The experience of Chagossian Islanders provides a parable within which
historical trajectories of racism,imperialism and dispossession intersect.

These all kinds of backdrop necessitated the use of secret agreements and other deceitful tactics by the two concerned powers UK and US.

This kind of dynamic ultimately leaves somebodies in a state of uncertainty on whether International Law can ever meet the aspiration of the periphery.
61 Islas Malvinas (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:25 pm Report abuse
“The Falklands are completely self sufficient and don't actually require outside help to continue as a community.”
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV0bANR4LPc

Documentary on the British ways in Chago Islands
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oCqqn_uOiY
62 KFC de Pollo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:27 pm Report abuse
@54 can we discuss Julio Argentino Pascual Roca when he said

La geografía política no siempre logra en nuestros tiempos imponer sus límites territoriales a la actividad de la economía de las naciones. Así ha podido decir un publicista de celosa personalidad que la Argentina, por su interdependencia recíproca es, desde el punto de vista económico, una parte integrante del Imperio Británico.

wouldn't it help argentina to again become part of the world and develop itself?
63 agent999 (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:31 pm Report abuse
@61
You can quote John Pilger until you run out of breath, the guy is a complete conspiracy nut case.
64 Islas Malvinas (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:37 pm Report abuse
@62 Ha ha ha ha The world in not only made up by the British Empire, fortunately. Besides, Argentina being part of the British Empire and developing istelf is a total contradiction.

@63 He might be a conspiracy nut case. That doesn´t change the fact the UK is a emperialistic nut case.
65 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:40 pm Report abuse
@62 excelent yes, we can discuss about Julio A. Roca. He is one of my favorite historical characters in Argentine history.

He was President of the country twice and was, most probably, the best president that ruled the country ever.

I have never listened the sentence you mentioned but this was, in fact, his concept and the concept of most of the leadind class of his time. So the frase could prefectly well be true. Thank to this attitude and concept Argentina was the leading country in LATAM at that time and was a country that was growing economically and progressing with international trading with almost the Entire Europe and USA.

But
66 KFC de Pollo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:46 pm Report abuse
@64 no it has been replaced by the US, EU, and BRIC.

Why is Argentina not part of these groups? fascism and peronists!

@65 it was actually his son who said it when he went to get some international deals with the UK/commonwealth.
67 pgerman (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 07:59 pm Report abuse
@66 yes, it could be. His son was vice-president of Argentina just once. Hes was very smart but he cannot be compared with his father.

You must be refering to the Roca-Runciman agreement but its now considered not a good agreement on the Argentine side.

The first trade agreement between Argentina and the Uk was just after the declaration of the independence. At that time the agreement of free trade with the UK allowed Argentina to break the Spanish blockade the port of Buenos Aires. Since that moment onwards both countries, Argentina and the UK, were parthers with trade agreements that were regularly negotiated and signed.
68 Islas Malvinas (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:01 pm Report abuse
How come can some one ever think there´s a connection between Falklands and Chagos? C´mon!

BRITAIN AND THE EMPIRE: Falklands and Chagos – A Tale of Two Islands

www.globalresearch.ca/britain-and-the-empire-falklands-and-chagos-a-tale-of-two-islands/29884
69 Tinx (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:07 pm Report abuse
While the Chagossians might be small number ,but their legal case is significant for dispossesed and colonized peoples across the globe.

The Islanders' experience rings true for those who have faced exile and discrimination at the hands of dominant powers.Furthermore their experience provides some insight into whether law can ever meet the needs of the least empowered.The domestic legal systems at US/UK have arguable failed to address Chagossians grievances to date and it is currently premature to determine whether a challenge in either court will be successful.

While post-colonial states could possess the outward trappings of international sovereignty is subordinate to that of the powers that granted them “” independence “”.!

The Policies of of most all developing states are still directed from the outside...so it is unclear whether the International Law provides the adequate tools for developing states and whether the International Law inits current form asa system founded by civilised states and crafted to justfiy colonial exploitation can ever meets the needs of the periphery.

The Chagossian dispossession represent a snapshot of the British Governments' questionable record abroad.

Indeed the Chagossian tragedy exemplifies how a “” whole system “” works behind the “” democratic façade “”.
becose we can say easily that , Colonial domination is made possible by the negation of national reality ,by new legal relations introduced by the occupying powers,by the expulsion of the natives and their customs to outlying districts by colonial society and by expropriation. !
70 malicious bloke (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:15 pm Report abuse
“The current economic self-sufficiency of the people of the FI is the result of a kind of “subsidy” received from the UK in terms of military defense and monitoring of the EEZ by the UK armed forces.”

So...what you are basically saying is that, without military protection from the UK, the Falkland Islands couldn't exist as a self-sufficient entity NOR could they maintain their EEZ.

That's basically an admission that, if not for the presence of the Royal Navy, Argentina would either forcibly occupy the islands again or openly commit acts of piracy against Falklands economic interests.

This isn't a good argument in Argentina's favour.
71 Tinx (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:20 pm Report abuse
The UK should also be held accountable.!
72 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:26 pm Report abuse
@tinx what utter soft and smelly stuff. Whilst the treatment of the chagos people was wrong, and they have been subsequently compensated, it does not give any justification for the Argentine claim on the Falklands. In fact completely the opposite.
By implication you are saying that the british government should force the Falkland Islanders from their home because of an historical precedent then surely the Falklanders should be left in peace according to your argument.
But even then that has nothing to do with Argentina's colonial claim on the Falkland Islands which seems to relie on a false inheritance from the former colonial power that was in the viceroyalty.
73 Conor J (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:35 pm Report abuse
@72
Well Said! Good for you!
74 Tinx (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:37 pm Report abuse
& 72

Certainly,the British Government is unlikely to remain on the sidelines when the Chagos matter is raised in Strasbourg.

Similary the widespread deception surrounding the depopulation is also not particulary unique since deceit debatable played a strong role in forging a case for the invasion of Iraq.
75 malicious bloke (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:49 pm Report abuse
72 put it better than I could.

But still it's puzzling that malvinistas would use the Chagos Islands as an argument in favour of their desire to annex and subjugate the Falklands.

Either Britain's treatment of the Chagos Islanders was wrong (in which case it would be equally wrong for Argentina to do the same to the Falklands) or it was perfectly right and acceptable, in which case why bring it up as something dark and unpleasant about Britain's colonial past?

In short, Argentina wants to do to the Falklands what Britain supposedly did to the Chagos islanders. Morally it's either wrong or it's right, which is it?

Or do Argentines not think they should live by the same rules as everyone else?
76 Conor J (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 08:57 pm Report abuse
@75
I'm gonna go with the latter option. Me thinks that the Argies may have some sort of minor god complex.
77 Tinx (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
in 2004 ,two “ Orders in Council” were secretly signed amidts the flurry of European Election Day activity.
Such orders are essentially legislative matters that circumvent Parliament and proceed to the Queen for authorisation.As a power is rarely used but for the Chagos case its purpose was clear; to prevent any Chagossians from ever setting foot onthe Chagos Islands.
In other words that ; “ Orders in Council ” acted the overrule the rights of return granted in the ruling of 2000 and amounted to a new act of exile.

Along these lines the following will demonstrate how the British Government brandeded the Chagossians as “ migrant workers” in order to justify the dispossession and to dissolve their responsbilities under Article 73 of the UN Charter.
78 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 09:55 pm Report abuse
@77 what ever you say has got sweet fanny adams to do with the Falklands. Good to see that you concern for the Chagos people means that you believe the Falkland Islanders should stay precisely where they are.
79 ProRG_American (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 10:17 pm Report abuse
This is all smoke to deceive world public opinin about a principle that does not apply in this case, self determination. Nothing new in the practice of colonialism. Let them waste their time, paer, and hot air. The world is not buying it.
80 Domingo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 10:37 pm Report abuse
The; people living on the Falkland Islands/Malvinas have been subject to undemocratic British Colonial Rule. The UN Charter and Resolution 1514(XV) grants the people living on the Falkland Islands/Malvinas the right to self-determination and free association independent from British Colonial aspirations as the Administrating Country. The UN Decolonization Committee's terms of reference require them to report on the progress of Great Britain on implementation of the UN Charter and Resolution 1514(XV) to the UNGA.

What has Great Britain done to abide by the UN Charter and UNGA Resolution 1514(XV) - which Argentina voted for but Great Britain abstained from? 89:0 in favour with 9 abstentions.
81 LEPRecon (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 10:55 pm Report abuse
@54 - pgerman

Er, no they're not. It would be impossible for any group of people to live on the Chagos Islands without assistance as they would have to import all of their drinking water.

The Falklands are completely self-sufficient and make enough money to burly any goods and services they need.

They only truly rely on the UK for defence, which wouldn't be required if they didn't have a belligerent neighbour who would immediately invade and subjugate or ethnically cleanse them the minute their guard was down.

Yes the UK looks after their foreign policy matters, but they have shown themselves more than capable of representing themselves on the international stage this year. So you can't compare the Chagos to the Falklands, it's would be like comparing apples and oranges, two completely different things.

@79 - PROAg

Show me where the UN says that the Falklanders don't have the right to self determination? You can't because they have NEVER said it.

@80 - Domino

What planet are you on? The Falkland Islands haven't been a colony for years, they are a self-governing overseas territory of the UK.

In March next year they will hold a referendum which will allow them to choose to be whatever they want to be (self-determination), whether that be to remain as they are, join Argentina or Chile or any other country they want to, or to become fully independent.

That's what this particular news article is about. Try reading it next time.
82 Domingo (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:07 pm Report abuse
@81 LEPRecon.

Yup. I take your point.

You are quite right.

No argument there ;-D
83 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 01st, 2012 - 11:35 pm Report abuse
#63 John Pilger is the best of British (and I know he was born in Australia), his journalism tells the truth to power

#64 So you think the genocidal Roca was your best leader, and hate the beautiful champion of the people you have now. Weird...
84 José Malvinero (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:57 am Report abuse
The thief and the fool, believe that everyone is in the same condition.
“the thief, the fool = English”
They are so sure “their” sovereignty over the Malvinas Argentinas, which will call a referendum ridiculous: “Since Argentina is calling for negotiations on sovereignty .....” Ja Ja Ja, Ja, Ja!!
We should claim sovereignty over London, then a referendum would the Londoners: “Since Argentina is calling for negotiations over sovereignty of London .....” Ja Ja Ja, Ja, Ja!!.Morons!
“The current political situation is that the Malvinas Islands are an overseas territory of the UK. Islands are internal autonomy, with the United Kingdom is responsible for matters such as defense and foreign affairs.”But they have a “governor” appointed by the little queen and Legislature formed by English-English!. Go to deceive others, pirates!
85 LEPRecon (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:17 am Report abuse
@84 - Jose

You are talking nonsense. If Argentina actually had a valid legal claim you would have taken the sovereignty issue to the ICJ years go. In fact, the UK asked you to go on 3 seperate occasions.

Argentina is calling for negotiations on sovereignty, Argentina is demanding that the UK hand over the Falklands regardless of what the people want.

It is Argentina that is living in the past, Argentina that is in the wrong, and Argentina who is trying to enforce its will through aggressive means on a peaceful people.
86 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 08:29 am Report abuse
@77 what ever you say has got sweet fanny adams to do with the Falklands. Good to see that you concern for the Chagos people means that you believe the Falkland Islanders should stay precisely where they are.
87 Benson (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 09:02 am Report abuse
@54 “The current economic self-sufficiency of the people of the FI is the result of a kind of “subsidy” received from the UK in terms of military defense and monitoring of the EEZ by the UK armed forces.”

Which wouldn't be required if it wasn't for our noisy neighbours.
88 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 09:22 am Report abuse
@87 The EU might be helping too (and we all know who contributes to that):

Under the 9th EDF, € 4,547 million is allocated to the Falkland Islands by means of a single programming document (SPD). The SPD identifies capacity building in the area of trade development with a view to encourage trade growth and increased value added in the Falklands Islands main production sectors of fisheries, agriculture and tourism as focal sectors. Under the 10th EDF Falklands islands will receive 4.6 million euros. That's a lot of Euros per FI voter.
89 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 10:02 am Report abuse
@88

Rather than just picking on aid to the Falkland Islands

You could also mention how much aid is directed to Latin America by EuropeAid,

For example:-
Argentina
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/where/latin-america/country-cooperation/argentina/argentina_en.htm
EuropAid (and we all know who contributes to that)

Ecuador
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/where/latin-america/country-cooperation/ecuador/ecuador_en.htm
EuropAid (and we all know who contributes to that)

Venezuela
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/where/latin-america/country-cooperation/argentina/argentina_en.htm
EuropAid (and we all know who contributes to that)
90 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 10:06 am Report abuse
@89 We get corned beef from Argentina, bananas from Ecuador and grief from Venezuela. We only get ingratitude from our colony.
91 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 10:10 am Report abuse
And we get no grief from Argentina, Ecuador or any other Latin American country.

What ingratitude to we get from the Islands?
92 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 11:04 am Report abuse
Not been around long have you? Still here's just one recent quote:

“”In UK and in the EU it would probabaly be and illegal law and agin “human rights” Islander1

So, the EU/UK handouts are OK but standards of decency and behaviour aren't.
93 LEPRecon (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 11:05 am Report abuse
@90 - DOD

If you were really British you would know that we no longer have any colonies.

We get our corned beef from Uruguay (Frey Bentos).

I assume that you refer to the Falkland Islands regarding the ingratitude comment.

Since when have they ever been ungrateful? Or do you mean ungrateful to your real country, Argentina?

You really do talk out of your arse, don't you?

Well next year the Falklanders will vote on their future status, under international observation.

Then they will petition to get themselves removed from the C24 decolonisation list, as they haven't had 'colonial' status for many years.

After that, the Argentine government can go swivel for all anyone else will care.
94 Monty69 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 11:39 am Report abuse
90 Doveoverdover

Could you remind us what we should be grateful for, how our 'ingratitude' manifests itself, and how we may best show our gratitude.
Thanks
95 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 12:02 pm Report abuse
@92
Please explain.
In simple English please for those of who are not experts.
96 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 12:15 pm Report abuse
#93 No BOT could ever conceivably be removed from the decolonisation list while still in that colonial situation. What the population thinks is utterly irrelevant I'm afraid, if you vote to be a colony you're still a colony in a world where colonialism is not accepted...
97 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 12:34 pm Report abuse
@96

You need to go to Specsavers, there is no mention of the word colony in the article.
It is only you and DOD that are using the term colony
98 Benson (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 12:53 pm Report abuse
“What the population thinks is utterly irrelevant I'm afraid, if you vote to be a colony you're still a colony in a world where colonialism is not accepted...”
That's like holding elections and then if BNP got in (god forbid) saying that the election didn't count because others don't like their policies. We aren't a colony but even if we were and the entire population wanted to remain so how does that affect the rest of the world (apart from Argentina because we're not their colony)
99 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 01:04 pm Report abuse
(88) Cmdr. Mc.Dod
Here, deranged Mr. Think, at a Yanki owned, complimentary WiFi equipped, fishing lodge in Patagonia..... with a comment for you:

I can see that you did find and analyze the relevant information provided in my EU link……….

Under the 9th EDF (European Development Fund - 2004/07), the Falkland/Malvinas Islands did receive 4.5 million € in “Development Aid”.... A Triumph of the British FCO (and Sukey Cameron) on how to milk the European Cash Cow…...

I can also see you already figured out that gives some 2,400€ per Kelper……….( I could buy a dozen good horses for that kind of mon€y!)

Luckily due to the EEC excellent management and administration (and some anonymous voices raising the question to the pertinent authorities), this waste of good €uropean monies on “Rich Uppity British Squatting Colonials in the South-Atlantic” has been stopped…..

Under the 10th EDF (European Development Fund - 2011/15) the Falkland/Malvinas Islands will receive 0 €…………
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/where/octs_and_greenland/single-programming-documents-10edf_en.htm

St Helena though......will still receive some 16 million € ofEuropean Development Funds during - 2011/15.
ec.europa.eu/europeaid/where/octs_and_greenland/documents/spd_st_helena_10th_edf_signed_en.pdf

That money will, hopefully, reduce the amount of unemployed Saints forced to emigrate to the Falklands/Malvinas to clean Kelper toilets for under 5,000£ a year……
I quote.....:
”Almost half of all residents (49.2%) report an annual income of less than £15,000 (with almost 12% reporting income of less than £5000.)”
www.falklands.gov.fk//documents/Headline%20Results%20from%20Census%202012.pdf (Page 8)
100 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 01:57 pm Report abuse
@93

I am and we do.

1. We, the UK, identified our overseas possessions to the UN as colonies. No one else did it for us and we have to yet convince the UN that the description no longer applies.
2. The FI Constitution of 2008 is a piece of UK legislation. Try reading it from a disinterested or better still skeptical point of view.
3. Under the Constitution, executive power resides with the UK appointed Governor.
4. FI controlled websites can be accessed that even describe the place as a Colony.

Now, if and when the Assembly forms a Government headed up by a First Minister, directly or indirectly elected, I'll agree that it is no longer a colony. More importantly, other States might agree. Till then, it's a colony and the sovereignty claim by Argentina will remain against the UK not the residents.

@99 Mere detail. Never bother with it myself.
101 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:09 pm Report abuse
@99 Hi Think
Another of your posts distorting facts to to fit your own viewpoint.

What is your source for these “anonymous voices raising the question to the pertinent authorities” ?
The average full time pay for “Cooks, maids, unskilled nannies, helpers and gardeners” in Argentina is under 2,000 pesos a month (just over £3,000 per year)

I hope the fish are more gullible.

@100
We have no colonies. (British Overseas Territories Act 2002)
102 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:15 pm Report abuse
(100) Cmdr. McDod
“Men who wish to know about the world must learn about it in its particular details”
(Heraclitus)
103 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:16 pm Report abuse
@101
We have no Colonies. (British Overseas Territories Act 2002)
104 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:27 pm Report abuse
(103) Cmdr. McDod
Mere detail ..... :-)
105 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:34 pm Report abuse
@102 and 104. Time to step back into the river, man.
106 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:39 pm Report abuse
(105) Cmdr. McDod

Lake.........
Rivers open first in two weeks.....

Light too strong...
They ain't biting....
Maybe after lunch.....
107 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 02:46 pm Report abuse
@106

Mere.....
He' never said anything about a lake or a mere as far as I know, which is not much and not worth anything anyway if Monty and Co are any judge.

Enjoy your lunch
108 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 03:09 pm Report abuse
(105) & (107) Cmdr. Mc.Dod

Must admit that I didn't get it................ at first.
No wonder Monty& Co. don't understand you.
You are an “obscure” one!
:-)
109 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 03:22 pm Report abuse
@108 Hey Jude, who you calling the obscure one?*

* For Monty and Co, that's an allusion to modern youth idiom (Hey Dude!) mixed with popular 20C music (the Beatles song title) and 19C English literature (one of the works of Thomas Hardy, a British Citizen with Wessex status).
110 bloody rubbish britons (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 03:31 pm Report abuse
@66
the english are rotten!
111 agent999 (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 04:25 pm Report abuse
@99 Hi Think

What is your source for these “anonymous voices raising the question to the pertinent authorities” ?
112 Think (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 05:03 pm Report abuse
(109) Cmdr. McDod

Not the English “obscure one”, jude...... The Hellenic one!
Anyhow….
Speaking about Hardy….........
I better pick my Bouglé & Trout Fisher and go back into the waters…….
113 Tinx (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 06:10 pm Report abuse
& 80

Inded, the approach of the British Governments to the some related Indian/Pacific/Atlantic Oceans islands territories have seemed to be greatly influenced by the doctrine of ** TERRA NULLIUS **..in other words these related territories were portrayed as -- virgin land--,--free from inhabitants--,. It was soon realised however,that this image would be difficult to uphold as records,photographs,films, and other forms of evidence clearly pointed to a large territories populations.
Whitehall therefore developed a political scheme to classify and present the these populations on some intersting formation like * contract or migrant labourers *...

What is ** TERRA NULLIUS ** ...!!

**TERRA NULLIUS ** is a 17th Century legal doctrine that is translated from Latin to mean **EMPTY LAND **.!
During the 18th Century ,this doctrine was used to give legal force to the settlement of the lands occupied by the *backward * people, where no system of Laws and Ownership of property was held to exist.
--------
The UK used the principal to claim possession of the Australian Continent
--------
114 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 06:18 pm Report abuse
@112 How very pleasing to learn that you value the products of the Hardy brothers, British Citizen with Northumbria status.

Ref James Bond's highly devalued colleague, are you going to tell him or shall I?
115 Tinx (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:03 pm Report abuse
& 86

You don' t know UK !

just a sample which relevant to this problem ,

Mauritius had claimed that the Chagos is under her sovereignty and accordingly attempted to secede from the Commonwealth in order to take UK to the Court !

What did UK !

In response the UK quickly amended its submission to the jurisdiction of the ICJ (International Court of Justice) to exclude * former* members of the Commonwealth as well as the current members

****

Would you want to invite that UK violated UN General Assembly 2066 passed in 1965 ,which addressed on UK to ensure the territorial integrity of Mauritius. ?
116 Leiard (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:21 pm Report abuse
@111
You are wasting your time with “Think” if you are expecting any meaningful dialogue or answer to your questions.

Think is quite happy to post links to graphs, tables and miscellaneous information to try and distract from the article that is actually being discussed.
Think, “thinks” he has all the answers and if you disagree with him you are in his terms a “turnip” or below his IQ and do not warrant an answer.
We get then get the nonsense posts, I am fly fishing this weekend “at a Yanki owned (“Yanki” a “Think” term of endearment), complimentary WiFi equipped, fishing lodge in Patagonia” – well you get what you pay for - I would hope that the WiFi was free – they could not guarantee you would catch anything else.
“I better pick my Bouglé & Trout Fisher” it maybe one of the best fly fishing reels – but is that really going to make you a better fisherman - maybe in your case it might help – but your problem is that fish do not usually go for a bullshit fly as bait. I makes you sound a bit like CFK and all her designer clothes.

Doveoverdover is a strange beast, he purports to be British, yet his posts are obviously anti the Falklands and the general British view of the Falkland Islands.

He will disassemble parts of the Falkland constitution that suit him and try to make everyone believe that the Islanders have no control over of their own destiny. He has his own agenda that is definitely not British.

He is another that will not answer a direct question, he insists the Falkland Islanders are ungrateful for the British support but will not give a true answer showing the Islanders being ungrateful.
He mumbles on about the Islands, in his view, being a colony but shows no proof of this being the case – you quoted the “British Overseas Territories Act 2002” and his answer was to parrot your quote.

He now also adds fly fishing tackle to his impressive list of expertise.

Good luck Agent999, but don’t expect to much.
117 China owns the UK (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:24 pm Report abuse
see the UK Debt Clock....the UK needs to pay 2 trillon dollars debt!
lol
118 Leiard (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:30 pm Report abuse
@117
right on cue - a troll appears
119 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 07:38 pm Report abuse
Look out Think, Turnips at 7 O'clock.....
120 Tinx (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 08:10 pm Report abuse
keep quite please !

she thinks right now !
121 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 08:16 pm Report abuse
...or should that be turnip at 7 o'clock. What a difference lower case makes....
122 Tinx (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
& 121

Why don't you Think to change your sentence style/response reflexs
to avoid misfire.
123 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 02nd, 2012 - 09:48 pm Report abuse
@ tinx - I don't know the UK
Wow that's an interesting viewpoint.
You obviously don't know the history of south america because you are under the delusion that the Falklands are part of Argentina.
124 Tinx (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 10:07 am Report abuse
& 123

No !

I am a free man ,neither for UK nor Argentina.

I believe these cold islands are the part of Antarctica.,not of Argentina/UK.
125 lsolde (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 11:28 am Report abuse
@124 Tinx,
Viva Antarctica!
Think,
Still haven't caught any fish, Chief Squatting Turnip?
Maybe you're not holding your mouth right.
126 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 12:13 pm Report abuse
@ then wtf has the chagos islands to do with Antarctica?
You have a very odd thought process.
Do you think Tierra del Fuego should be part of Antarctica then? I'm sure that would upset a few Argies.
127 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 01:35 pm Report abuse
@126 A few Argies might point out that as they already have a Provincia de Tierra del Fuego, Antártida e Islas del Atlántico Sur they have no reason to be upset.
128 Gordo1 (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 03:47 pm Report abuse
On 13th October 2012 the London Daily Telegraph published a letter from Alicia Castro, the pathetically undiplomatic Argentine Ambassador to the Court of St James, in which she described the Falkland Islands “as a colonial ENCLAVE in the south of our continent”. This is, of course, totally absurd.

The word “enclave” in both Spanish and English has the same meaning i.e.Territory included in another with different political, administrative and geographic characteristics; a portion of territory of one State surrounded by territory of another or others, as viewed by the surrounding territory. Clearly, Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish “enclaves” surrounded by Morocco.

However, the Falkland Islands are over 1,000 kilometres distance from Argentina and the South American sub-continent and are totally surrounded by the South Atlantic Ocean.

Are all Argentines as badly informed as Madame Castro?
129 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 04:40 pm Report abuse
@128 Or as you? The islands are less than 1000km away. The flight distance from Rio Gallegos to MPA on East Falkland is 745 km for example. Still, that's more than enough to undermine any sovereignty claim based on territorial integrity in the physical sense, I'm sure you will agree.

As an observation, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Madam Castro describes the population on the FI as a colonial enclave. For her and for other like minded people (not me I have to add) the islands and the sea around them are an integral part of Argentina and hence South America. Were they not so but were in Argentinian hands, they would be an Argentinian colony and therefore still the subject of the decolonisation imperative. In her worldview the population of British Citizens with FI status are an enclave illegally occupying Argentinian domestic territory and surrounded by Argentinian territorial waters. She may be wrong in her opinion but she certainly isn't badly informed or, frankly, totally absurd.
130 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 04:50 pm Report abuse
#128 What is so “pathetically undiplomatic” about Alicia? Is it that most diplomats lie for their country, while she tells the truth for her?
131 Conor J (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 07:40 pm Report abuse
@130
What truth? That the Falklands are allegedly Argentine?
132 Think (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
(129) Cmdr. McDod
Errrmm…..
Excusez moi…..

The distance between the San Juan del Sacramento lighthouse, Isla de los Estados, Argentina…
www.panoramio.com/photo/194235?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com

To Mount Stephens, Malvinas/Falkland Islands, Argentina……
www.panoramio.com/photo/25559749?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com

Is no more than 350Km..........
Google it…..

That's more than enough to support Argentina’s sovereignty claim based on territorial integrity in the physical sense, I'm sure you will agree.
133 Gordo1 (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 08:13 pm Report abuse
I am, indeed, badly informed. My apologies BUT the distance between Tierra del Fuego and the Falklands is 676.64 Km. - still well outside internationally recognised maritime limits. And, of course, by any interpretation the Falkland Islands are not an enclave.
134 Think (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 08:24 pm Report abuse
(133) Gordo1

Yeahhhh... Suure.....

And the distance between Great Britain and France is 700 Km....
(If you measure it from Liverpool to Nice!)
What a Turnip!
135 Viva Las Falklands (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 08:43 pm Report abuse
@ 134 distance between chile and Argentina 0 miles. According to your logic argentina can claim sovereignty over chile.
136 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 08:56 pm Report abuse
@135

And Chile can claim Argentina.

And Chile and Uruguay are both likely to want to take some back from their unstable neighbour, when (not if) it implodes economically.

:-)
137 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 09:35 pm Report abuse
@132 Feeling a little pretentious are we? Anyway, as Monty might say, please read that what I wrote.

ref @133 Well he has a point when he says that is well outside the 44kms that is the relevant (current) internationally recognised maritime limit, don't you think? From that observation you can deduce I don't think a mere 350km island hop is anywhere near close for territorial integrity in a physical sense (though I do acknowledge that is the physical distance).

Shouldn't you be in the bar talking about the one that got away?
138 Gordo1 (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 10:04 pm Report abuse
The important point is that the Falkland Islands are not an enclave!
139 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 03rd, 2012 - 10:30 pm Report abuse
I agree and may I say it makes a refreshing change to have someone not taking exception to the description of the Islands and their population as colonial.
140 Monty69 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 12:30 am Report abuse
139 Doveoverdover

You can describe the population in whatever way you wish. I've heard people call Australians and New Zealanders colonials; they don't like it, but arguing with people who call you names is a pretty futile exercise. I've also heard the British called imperialists, which is a bit mean. I think you are one, but you're a bit of a rarity I think
141 dab14763 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 03:16 am Report abuse
For Dove and BK,

Q Are the BOTs still on the NSGT list because the UK has failed to apply UN criteria for decolonisation?
A No, the UK has applied UNGA criteria for decolonisation, yet they're still on the list. And UNGA criteria are not even binding in international law.

Q Are the BOTs still on the list because they don't have ministerial government?
A No, several of the territories have ministerial government, yet they're still on the list. Note to Dove. The term 'First Minister' is used for the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. The BOTs have Chief Ministers or Premiers. The Crown Dependencies have Chief Ministers.

Q Are the BOTs on the list because they don't have enough autonomy?
A No, They have more autonomy than the French OTs, yet they're still on the list, while most French OTs aren't.

Q Are the BOTs on the list because their constitutions are drawn up and approved by the metropolitan government/parliament
A They're drawn up and approved after consultation with the peoples of the OTs. Dutch OT constitutions are also approved. French and Danish OTs don't even have local constitutions. They're subject to the constitutions of France and Denmark.

Q Are BOTs still on the list because their governors are appointed by the metropolitan state and have varying degrees of executive power and aren't local people?
A No, French Prefects are appointed by the metropolitan state and have executive powers and aren't local people, yet most French OTs are no longer on the list.

_________________________________
An enclave has to be completely surrounded by territory of another nation. Since the Falklands EEZ partly borders international waters, they cannot be an enclave, whatever their political status.
142 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 07:46 am Report abuse
@140 Thank you for your own futile exercise. Actualy, I'm rather proud of being born a subject of the Empire and of being one of the first generation to migrate into the global village.
@141 My old friends in the FCO will just love the way you point up their diplomatic failings by reference to the success of French diplomacy. May I, without calling you a futile name, say that you show a certain pedantic quality in your post?
143 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:03 am Report abuse
141 dab14763

You say:
”An enclave has to be completely surrounded by territory of another nation. Since the Falklands EEZ partly borders international waters, they cannot be an enclave, whatever their political status.”

I say:
Mi estimado Dab…., as usual…., a question of perspective…
In your British perspective the Malvinas Islands are not a British enclave….
In the Argentinean perspective (as my Personal London City Broker Mr. McDod tried to explain), they are, very much, a British enclave…..
Maybe the map below can help dilucidate your reservations…:
www.argentour.com/es/mapa/archivosmapas/antartidag.jpg

As I said before; all “a question of perspective”……
Like our little wager, some time ago, about Humala Vs. Fujimori… Remember…..?
Your perspective was that it was I-M-P-O-S-I-B-L-E for Humala to become President of Perú....
As you maybe remember; my perspective was the opposite….
The Peruvian Red Cross was surely happy about your 100 Soles……
Are you happy with Sr. Humala as President?

Saludos al Perú
El Think

PS:
(137) Cmdr. McDod
Did the story already reach the United Kingdom?
*A Fontinalis big as a 3 weeks lamb!
It got away :-(

*(Fisherette Monty96 knows, for sure, “how big” that is ;-)))
144 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:32 am Report abuse
What a whopper! The story that is not the fish.

@141 On reflection, your first question does prompt a thought about the preamble to the referendum question. I wonder if, for the sake of addressing the unreasonableness implied in your question, it wouldn't be more appealing to other states to frame the question in terms of the UN criteria rather than the Argentinian claim?

So instead of “Given that Argentina is calling for negotiations over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands” what about “ Given that the UN requires evidence that the Falkland Islands is in free association with the United Kingdom”?
145 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 09:21 am Report abuse
(144) Cmdr. McDod

The ultimate Fish Fingers Whopper story, alright....;-)

Just as a Curio......:
What would your proposal for the Malvinas/Falklands referendum question be ???
146 MistyThink (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 10:42 am Report abuse
Referandum ?

I wonder if these islands go away like Papua New Guinea independence !

Laugh !
147 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 11:11 am Report abuse
@145 How kind of you to ask.....

In 1981 the Falkland Islands ceased to be a British Crown Colony and in 2002 ceased to be a United Kingdom Dependent Territory. The current Constitution of the Falkland Islands was drafted with the full participation of the people of the Falkland Islands and freely consented to as evidenced by the conduct of Legislative Assembly elections under the Constitution in November 2009. The Constitution associates the Falkland Islands with the United Kingdom as an Overseas Territory, there being no desire at the time of approval for independence or integration into another State. The Constitution recognises the right to self determination of the Falkland Island people as defined in the United Nations Charter.

The General Assembly of the United Nations now requires formal evidence that the Falkland Islands are in Free Association with the United Kingdom in order for it to be able to formally declare the end of the colonial status of the Falkland Islands.” To this end a referendum is required.

Do you wish the Falkland Islands to remain in Free Association with the United Kingdom?

.....Standing by to receive flak and night fighters.....
148 lsolde (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 11:13 am Report abuse
@146 MistyThink,
And what do you know about Papua New Guinea?
The country has been independent since 1975.
Have you ever been there?
149 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 02:32 pm Report abuse
(147) Cmdr. McDod
So; your question would be….:
“Do you wish the Falkland Islands to remain in Free Association with the United Kingdom?”
As compared to the official question…:
Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?

In my humble opinion…:
Both questions fail to expound, enlighten or elucidate (to the United Nations or any other neutral partaker) the necessity, meaning or validity of a “Referendum” in which some 1,900 full-fledged British citizens (with “Falkland status”) are asked if they want to remain an “Overseas Territory of” or continue in a ”Free Association with the United Kingdom” or…....... whatever.

…….One thousand nine hundred fully-fledged British citizens will be asked....
One thousand nine hundred fully-fledged British citizens who also happen to be an instrumental factor in the British “Grand Geo-Political Design” for the South-Atlantic and the Antarctic…..
That’s why the question of the Malvinas/Falkland Islands is considered “Special” by everyone in the UN.

PS:
You should have seen the one that got away this morning!
The size of a hogget...., i swear ;-)
150 Gordo1 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 02:48 pm Report abuse
Everyone in the UN? Rubbish!
151 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 03:46 pm Report abuse
@149 One exaggeration too far there I'm afraid (and I don't mean the fish). You should know better than to use an expression like “everyone in the UN” when at least one member of the UN clearly does no consider it Special. There are of course more than one who don't so as @150 says, Rubbish! Had you tempered your evident exasperation and said something like “considered Special by at least two of the relevant UN bodies” I could have agreed with you.

As for the referendum....Well, I did say when it first came up that I thought the idea of a Referendum wasn't a good idea. I still think it isn't and won't be until the Head of Government is locally elected (Sharon and Co are already talking about full time paid representatives; a necessary step to a full time Chief/First/Premier Minister). More seriously, I think it also has risks for that grand design of ours. If the FCO are not careful independence may become an option for the islanders and that really wouldn't do for the plan. We have already had one or two of them expressing an opinion that points that way. I view them as traitors as well as ingrates (cue your Banastre Tarleton clip from Patriot).

Anyway, now the referendum cat had been let out of the bag (for which mistake, IMHO, the ([ir]responsible FCO minister was moved on in the recent reshuffle) the Islanders will have to make the best of it. That will be with or without my input, which draws on the language of the UN criteria for de-listing, being taken into consideration. But then you knew that was my intent already even if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge it to me - “or whatever”.
152 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 03:53 pm Report abuse
TWIMC

Coming to “Think” about it, I realized that I made a grave mistake at my post (149)

I forgot to deduct the ~500 Kelpers under the legal voting age of 18 years!

There are, therefore, only ~1,400 full-fledged British citizens (with “Falkland status”) that will be asked the famous question.......

I don't want anyone to “Think” that I'm spreading wrong information, you know......
153 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 03:58 pm Report abuse
#141 The problem with the BOTs is they are in an unequal yet seperate relationship with Britain, unlike overseas integral parts of France, Holland, Denmark etc, thats why they are still colonies and need to be decolonised
154 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 04:13 pm Report abuse
( 151) Cmdr.McDod

You say:
You should know better than to use an expression like “everyone in the UN” when at least one member of the UN clearly does no consider it Special. There are of course more than one who don't so as @150 says, Rubbish! Had you tempered your evident exasperation and said something like “considered Special by at least two of the relevant UN bodies” I could have agreed with you.

I say:
Believe it or Not….., in my first draft I wrote..: “considered “Special” by nearly everyone in the UN”.
I deliberately erased the word “nearly” from my final text....
Nothing to do with any “un-tempered exasperation”.....
This is not the UN, you know? ;-)
155 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 04:31 pm Report abuse
@154 UNbelievable as we used to say when I was an UNMO and something exasperating happened in the Mission. You openly admit that you deliberately and knowingly stated a falsehood. How can I ever believe anything you ever write again?
156 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 04:35 pm Report abuse
(155) Cmdr. McDod
By double-checking it, as you usually do............
157 dab14763 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 05:45 pm Report abuse
Dove
142 I think it’s more to do with the fact the French territories that integrated with France were removed in 1947, before the decolonisation committee was set up in 1961.

144, 147 There is no requirement to prove that the UK is in Free Association with the UK. The Falklands’ relation with the UK, though voluntary, isn’t Free Association. Free Association means a sovereign state that delegates to another state certain functions of state that for some reason it’s unable to carry out itself, eg defence, foreign relations.

Think

143 The Falklands are not an enclave because by definition (COMPLETELY surrounded by another nation) they are not. If they were in the middle of Argentine Patagonia they would be an enclave, if they were bordering Chile they would not be. If they were in the same location, but in a lake or internal sea, and completely surrounded by Argentine territory they would be. Lesotho, completely surrounded by South Africa is an enclave, Gambia, mostly, but not completely surrounded by Senegal is not

Impossible wasn’t my perspective, unlikely was.

149 Fully fledged New Zealand citizens in Tokelau (pop 1433) and Niue (1444) and fully fledged Australian citizens in Cocos(Keeling)Islands(596) have had self determination referendums.

149,154 The UN has never expressed an opinion that the Falklands are a special case, that’s in a C24 resolution, not a UNGA resolution.

BK
153 The French and Danish OTs don’t have an equal relationship with France and Denmark. The arrangements are not federal. Dutch OTs as constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands theoretically have an equal relation with the Netherlands, in practice it’s a different matter. But the UN doesn’t require the relationship to be equal.
158 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 06:23 pm Report abuse
(157) dab14763

1) The British Empire's enclave of Malvinas is COMPLETELY surrounded by Argentina...... You better surrender............. ASAP :-)

2) If memory serves me right your skewed British perspective on Ollanta's winning chances on the last Peruvian presidental elections were closer to “Impossible” than to “Unlikely”.........

3) Tokelau, Niue and Cocos were not Territories rightfully claimed by another Nation....
They were classical examples of positive decolonization in favor of the opressed native Peoples.
No similarities with Malvinas......
That's why Malvinas is a “Special Case” at the UN.....
159 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 06:45 pm Report abuse
Yes, no oppressed people in Falklands.
160 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 07:08 pm Report abuse
@157 Oh heavens! The FI aren't independent, integrated into the UK or in Free Association with the UK. They must still be a colony or in limbo. Thank you for your clear sighted analysis. I can stop worrying.

@158 The British Empire is still around then? As two of you agree on that, the rumours of it's demise were obviouslyexagerated! Huzza, Let off more fireworks!

And as for the Falklands/Malvinas being a special case (or even a Special Case) at the UN, you know as well as he does that Argentinian diplomacy has never actually managed to get those special and particular words into a General Assembly Resolution. So, not nearly everyone sees it the way you say you do.
161 dab14763 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:05 pm Report abuse
Think

Falklands EEZ to the North and East borders international waters, so no, they are not completely surrounded by Argentina.

My perspective was based on what had happened in the 2006 run off election between García and Humala. It wasn’t specifically British.

The right to self determination has never been limited to oppressed native peoples, or even oppressed peoples, or even native peoples, or even oppressed indigenous peoples, or even indigenous peoples.

Dove

The UN has 4 ways a territory can be decolonised, not 3.

Who else apart from Think believes the empire still exists?
162 Pete Bog (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:31 pm Report abuse
@158
”1) The British Empire's enclave of Malvinas is COMPLETELY surrounded by Argentina.”

No, it's surrounded by the South Atlantic (international waters), as is Tristan da Cunha, Ascension Island, St Helena, South Georgia, a whole line of British Territories extending down the South Atlantic.
163 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:39 pm Report abuse
(161) dab14763
Malvinas/Falklands EEZ borders to the north with the Argentinean Pepys Islands...
Malvinas/Falklands EEZ borders to the East with the Argentinean Aurora Islands.
I repeat........: The British Empire's enclave of Malvinas is COMPLETELY surrounded by Argentina...... Be nice and surrender....... :-)
El Think & Chewbacca

PS:
The right to self determination has always been limited to Peoples; not Individuals.
The Individuals squatting on Malvinas are British Citizens; ergo : “British People”
As such they may enjoytheir right to self determination...... in Britain.
164 Conor J (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:44 pm Report abuse
@163
Falklands are British, always will be. Surrender? Make us! Oh thats right you can't!
165 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 08:45 pm Report abuse
@161 Yes of course! Four ways.... I'll rethink my preamble and question.

Now, a Non-Self Governing Territory can be said to have reached a full measure of self government by: (a) emergence as a sovereign independent State, (b) Free association with an independent State, (c) integration with an independent State or (d)......

(sotto voce), Could you just remind me of the fourth way, I'm still stuck in the fifteenth session of the GA - it's an age thing you know.
166 dab14763 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 09:21 pm Report abuse
Think

Shag Rocks are about 585 nmi from the Falklands. Even if they had an EEZ of their own (they don’t as per UNCLOS, so are within South Georgia’s EEZ), that EEZ would not touch the Falklands EEZ. There are international waters between the two.

Pepys Islands? Lol

I did say peoples. We British are not one people; we are 17 distinct
peoples.

Dove

Now, a Non-Self Governing Territory can be said to have reached a full measure of self government by: (a) emergence as a sovereign independent State, (b) Free association with an independent State, (c) integration with an independent State

(as originally stated in Resolution 1541 (XV) of 1960 15th session)

or (d)...... the emergence into any other political status freely determined by a people (as added in UNGA Resolution 2625 (XXV) of 1970 (25th Session)
167 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 09:32 pm Report abuse
(166) dab14763

1) Who mention anything about “Shag Rocks”?
I said “Aurora Islands”. A-U-R-O-R-A I-S-L-A-N-D-S, comprende?

You British are 17 distinct peoples, you say?
Says Who?
168 dab14763 (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 09:47 pm Report abuse
Think,
1) They’re the same thing.

Actually it’s 18 distinct peoples,

English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish,

Manx, Jersey Islanders, Guernsey Islanders,

Anguillians, Bermudians, British Virgin Islanders, Caymanians, Falkland Islanders, Gibraltarians, Montserratians, Pitcairners, St Helenians, Tristanians, Turks and Caicos Islanders.
169 Think (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 10:12 pm Report abuse
(168) dab14763

And the list could grow ad infinitum mentioning the inhabitants of any Region, Island,County, City, Town or Hamlet across the United Kingdom or their Great Former Empire........

It doesn't make it true thougt.....
170 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 10:24 pm Report abuse
@168 Well there you go, one's never too old to learn. Think, old chap, you too were right nearly all the time. I'm off to bedfordshire, a phantom island off the Kent coast, never to post again. I know I will not be missed.
171 Pete Bog (#) Nov 04th, 2012 - 11:24 pm Report abuse
@163
“The Individuals squatting on Malvinas are British Citizens; ergo ”

Yes because the UN's options on decolonialisation give them the right to choose to be British.

If you idiots had not invaded in 1982 they might be able to look forward to independence, but that will eventually come within the next 50 years, finally sinking your half-assed claim, based on distorting history.

They'd be really stupid to choose citizenship of a backward country like Argentina that continually backfires like an old car since the peronists ruined a formerly great country.
172 lsolde (#) Nov 05th, 2012 - 11:24 am Report abuse
My God, Think you do waffle on when you are either losing or want to cloud the issue.
Of course the Falklands are the gateway to the Antarctic.
Everybody knows that.
That is why we are going to keep them & why Argentina will never get them.
Tell us all something that we don't know.
Catch any fish?
173 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 05th, 2012 - 03:07 pm Report abuse
172 “Of course the Falklands are the gateway to the Antarctic.
Everybody knows that.
That is why we are going to keep them & why Argentina will never get them”

And here was me thinking it was all about self determination for people like you...
174 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 05th, 2012 - 04:15 pm Report abuse
@173 Bitter Kirchnerist

“That is why we are going to keep them & why Argentina will never get them”

And here was me thinking it was all about self determination for people like you...”

Isolde lives there, that's for her to 'determine'.

Of course, she may enjoy twisting the knife a little, too !!
175 Think (#) Nov 05th, 2012 - 04:36 pm Report abuse
(170) Cmdr. McDod

In here, a common sensed person that doesn't draw upon insults or lies will always be missed………..
Wishing you all the best in every aspect of life, excepting all your investments in the Argentinean South-Atlantic…...
Pat Nelson & Nigger for me, will you?
176 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 05th, 2012 - 09:17 pm Report abuse
#170 I'll miss your unique point of view too. Why are you going, btw?
177 lsolde (#) Nov 06th, 2012 - 08:54 am Report abuse
@173 B_K,
Why do you think Argentina wants the Falklands?
Hint:- Access to a great white continent.
@174 Troy Tempest,
So true. we have endured their constant insults & harrassments.
lts time they got some of it back!
178 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 06th, 2012 - 07:40 pm Report abuse
@176 BK

“#170 I'll miss your unique point of view too. Why are you going, btw?”

He's likely going nowhere. Either he's run out of shillings to plug into his old NHS-issued computer, or some other “guests of Her Majesty” have decided they want the computer in their cell now.
179 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 06th, 2012 - 08:50 pm Report abuse
@178 You're partly right. I'm indeed going nowhere. I had decided not to post again because there isn't room on this board for both dab14763 and me. That man (I assume it's a he) is seriously well informed and so sure of himself that he made me feel very, very, inadequate. Then my resolve to be a lurker was sorely tested by the kind words at 175 and 176 but it held, just, even as tears welled in my eyes. Then came your input and I realised that if a time expired wooden puppet like you could post non-value adding tripe then there was certainly room for my ill-informed ramblings. Thank you, it's good to be back.

@175 and 176. Thank you too for your kind words. You have only yourselves (and @178 of course) to blame. Now I haven't been entirely idle. The well patted dogs, asleep in front of the wood burning stove with Mrs McDod peacefully watching Holby City, are better walked than they have been recently, for example. I also embarked on a search to find someone else to blame for my ignorant postings so painfully deconstructed by my recently emerged Nemesis.Guess what? I found I could blame the UN and, better still, the Iberiophiles in the C24 Secretariat! Look at this (go on humour me)....

www.un.org/en/decolonization/questions_answers.shtml

UNbelievable....Even the highly paid UN civil service gets it wrong on occasions. Paragraph 8 is factually wrong if dab is right (and I think he is 'cause I checked before sulking the other day). However, despite his implied claim to infallibility, Dab may be wrong on his narrow understanding of “free association” but I'll debate that with him if he's interested.

Finally, for this post anyway, can I faintly echo an older wiser man by saying that although I'm not here to make friends, Think and I really don't care what other people think about me, Think, I'd just like to say that it's very nice to read something nice about myself for a change.
180 Think (#) Nov 06th, 2012 - 09:41 pm Report abuse
(179) Cmdr. McDod

No ignominy in losing a few points against British Dab14763.
As far as I remember.........., he is a youngish male living in Perú.
Professor of some kind, doesn’t lie, not much sense of humor, I reckon.
Likes Stockhausen, Händel and Neil Young.… ergo he ain’t no turnip ;-)))
181 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 07:55 am Report abuse
@180 Well, I can forgive him everything except perhaps his youth. And as Jim Steinman once wrote, two out of three ain't bad.

As for the preamble and question. After reflection, I'm as convinced as ever that some reference to the UN criteria and the word freely should be in it. Yes, I know that it can and will still be rubbished as an irrelevant exercise by the Argentinian authorities and supporters but, if the Islanders are mainly going to use it in UN fora, they ought to tailor it to that organisation's vocabulary and grammar. I'd be surprised if the experts they consulted didn't recommend that.

They might also have said that including inaccurate and incomplete statements in the preamble unnecessarily gives opponents ammunition to use when arguing against the legitimacy of the exercise. There is still scope to change this before the Assembly goes firm but I wouldn't put any more of your money on it.

Talking of money, do you think JB's “good news” might be Cairn farming into B&S? Time will tell. Shame we both haven't got as much of it as dab14763 has.
182 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 12:31 pm Report abuse
#177 But you suggested the only reason Britain (or was that the Islanders themselves) didn't want Argentina to have the Falklands, was to block their way to Antarctica. If you meant Britain, you might well be right, but it contradicts 99.9% of what you say on here; if you meant the Islanders, why would they care?!
183 Pete Bog (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 03:17 pm Report abuse
@182
The Falkland Islands would not neccesary be a stopping off point only for the BAS-other countries with interests in Antarctica may well use MPA or the Falklands deepwater port when it is built.

The new port will bring a lot of shipping business to the Islands as it had in the 19th century before the Panama canal opened. But rather than a gateway to the Pacific it will be the gateway to the Antarctic.

There would be no need to block Argentine access to the Antarctic-I'm sure if they actually paid the docking fees and contributed to the FI economy their ships would be welcome in the Islands as I don't believe the Islanders are too stupid to cut their nose off to spite their face.

Sadly Argentina is not business minded. They prefer to go t1ts up than to actually succeed. There are many ways Argentina could use the Islands to its advantage financially if they gave up its farcical claim.
184 LEPRecon (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 05:58 pm Report abuse
@181 - DOD

Why? In fact the FIG will have consulted lawyers specialising in international law regarding the wording of the referendum question.

The less ambiguous the question the less chance it has of being mis-represented by certain parties who want to discredit the referendum.

The fact is that the referendum itself is in line with the UN's stated goal of giving all overseas territories a say in their status and how they are run. Putting the word UN or freely in the question is irrelevant, as the UN itself will be observing the referendum to ensure that it is free and fair.

In cases like this K.I.S.S. applies.
185 ProRG_American (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 06:06 pm Report abuse
Yawn, yawn and more yawns. Useless waste of time with these referendums.
Next subject please.
186 agent999 (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 06:25 pm Report abuse
@185
Why keep pretending that you are American ?
187 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 07:24 pm Report abuse
@184 I wonder if there is anyone who knows anything about the Falkland Islands who doesn't already know that the British Citizens with Falkland Island status (and the resident subset who have the vote) overwhelmingly support the status quo? Has anyone ever been elected to LegCo or the Assembly who said anything different in their manifesto? Has that form of democratic legitimacy swung it in the C24 or the 4th Commitee so far? @185 might well be right.

But, just suppose that you are a fair minded person with a neutral mindset and a respect for the ideals and status of the UN. The words of the Charter and General Assembly resolutions might awake just a bit more sympathy in your mind than the historically routed and inflammatory idea of a British Overseas Territory with all its colonial overtones. Fail to spell it out in the preamble and neglect to hint at it in the question and the authors will have missed an opportunity to engage with the audience at the margin (ie those whose minds are not already irreversibly made up). If 185 is right it will still be a waste of time but it will make it just that bit harder to criticise than it currently is. This is, after all, about PR not about international law. K.I.S.S won't be enough.

Now as for being in line with UN policy, some UN member states and individuals see this as a special and particular situation. Has an invitation to carry out a fact finding mission ever been taken up? Has anyone seen anything in writing from any of the UN agencies to confirm that they are actually going to take up this offer to observe the Referendum because I haven't read anything yet? (I'm not infallible though...)

Sadly for @185 this story has got legs.
188 Think (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 07:40 pm Report abuse
(187) Cmdr. McDod

You say:
”Has an invitation to carry out a fact finding mission ever been taken up........................................?
Has anyone seen anything in writing from any of the UN agencies to confirm that they are actually going to take up this offer to observe the Referendum because I haven't read anything yet............................? (I'm not infallible though...)

I say:
Funny you mention it....;-)
Me neither!
FIG PR?

PS:
We are all mere fallibles...
189 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 07:58 pm Report abuse
@187 Dover

That was a very long post.

Good question at the end - will the UN take the Referendum into consideration??

“Sadly for @185 this story has got legs.”

That statement is a bit confusing .
I am seriously interested to hear what you think of it.
It could mean,

1) Too bad a statement from FI as a people,that they wish to remain British, will not end the claims from Argentina.

2) Too bad that the FI people will continue to pursue self-determination, much to Argentina's frustration.

How do you feel personally, as an objective world citizen?

Do you feel that if the Falklanders wish to stay a BOT according to their referendum, Argentina should no longer pursue sovereignty over the islands?

The referendum allowed two possible answers, “YES” or “NO”.

Thanks
190 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 10:08 pm Report abuse
@189 Sorry you're confused. Thank you for your imaginative and complicated interpretations but there is at least one other explanation. The correct one, happily KISS.
See @185 “Next subject please.”
See @187 “Sadly for @185 this story has got legs.”....because there is more to come on Mercopress, at the public meetings etc, etc before a question is even put to the electorate.

As for your ill conceived and loosely worded mini-referendum, it's the self determined act of this world citizen not to reward it with an answer. You should have taken expert advice before presenting it to the electorate.

You're welcome
191 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 10:18 pm Report abuse
Thank you.

I am free to interpret your response to mean,

“I have something to hide”.
192 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 10:30 pm Report abuse
And you are free to be equally wrong.
193 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 10:45 pm Report abuse
I'm right.

You're free to correct me :-)
194 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 10:56 pm Report abuse
The tipex doesn't seem to be working.
Anyway lets end with a schoolboy joke as I depart off to bed.

What was the colour and make of Troy Tempest's first car?

Aqua Marina, of course

Goodnight
195 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 07th, 2012 - 11:26 pm Report abuse
LOL

Marina has a bad reputation...
196 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 03:11 pm Report abuse
Cristina is lovely like Marina =)
197 dab14763 (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
169

No, Think, it couldn't.

They are all peoples of territories that have always been distinct, one not part of another. The Crown Dependencies and the OTs have never been part of the UK nor of any of its constituent countries. And while the constituent countries are part of the UK, no UK country has ever been part of another UK country.

179

Dove

I am a he

I don’t claim to be infallible

Paragraph 8 doesn’t contradict what I said; it confirms it.

It’s not just my understanding of Free Association; It’s the British Government’s understanding also.

www.un.org/en/decolonization/pdf/crp_2008_04_united_kingdom.pdf

See the paragraph beginning ‘but the concept of free association…’

See also resolution 1541 principle VII (b)
A territory that can determine its own internal constitution without outside interference is by definition an independent state.

The NSGTs that were removed from the UN’s list on the basis of their Free Association arrangements are recognised as sovereign states. Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau (associated to the US) are members of the UN; Cook Islands and Niue (associated with NZ) are recognised as non member states.

180

Think,

Definitely young at 49

Not a professor. EFL teacher.

Stockhausen
Never listened to him before. Tried a few clips on youtube. Not enough to make up my mind

Händel
I’ve only listened to the Messiah. Very long ago. Don’t remember how it goes.

Neil Young
Yes, but haven’t listened to him for a while either.
198 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 06:21 pm Report abuse
@197 Good evening, young man. Thank you for an interesting paper, which I have glanced at and will read in detail after supper. I'd just make two points now though. The first is that any paper that uses British and UK as interchangeable terms as this one does is probably a bit suspect on the intellectual credibility front. The second, and here I would welcome support by way of conformation from fellow readers, is that many of the Islanders who post here have vehemently affirmed that the 2008 Constitution was written, freely, on the islands. The fact that it is also a piece of UK law is secondary to it being an FI Ordnance, so we are told. Not much, except the small problem of the Argentinean sovereignty claim, prevents the FI from joining the Cook Island class.
199 Think (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 07:22 pm Report abuse
( 197) dab14763

You say:
“ They are all peoples of territories that have always been distinct, one not part of another. The Crown Dependencies and the OTs have never been part of the UK nor of any of its constituent countries. And while the constituent countries are part of the UK, no UK country has ever been part of another UK country.”

I say:
And so what…???
That your ***United Kingdom*** had / has some complex systems & regulations for their Colonies & Territories didn’t / doesn’t transform any “British Colonials” into a “People”..........

It didn’t transform the British Colonials from India into a “People”.
It didn’t transform the British Colonials from Rhodesia into a “People”.
It didn’t transform the British Colonials from Hong Kong into a “People”.

And it has certainly not transformed the British Colonials from the Malvinas into a “People”.
200 dab14763 (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 08:04 pm Report abuse
Dove

The paper is from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The government of the UK is the British Government, so I fail to see your point here.

Who said that about the Constitution? The Constitution is the result of input from the Islanders and the UK government. It has both Islands approval and UK approval.

Argentina has proved powerless to prevent anything regarding the nature of relationship between the Falklands and the UK.

Think,

-It didn’t transform the British Colonials from India into a “People”.
It didn’t transform the British Colonials from Rhodesia into a “People”.
It didn’t transform the British Colonials from Hong Kong into a “People”.-

These never had territories separate from their fellow Indians, Zimbabweans, or Hong Kongers in which they could become a people in their own right separate from other Indians, Zimbabweans, or Hong Kongers. Nor did they become the majority group in their territories. But they were/are not English, Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish. And to your countries I counter with Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA
201 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 10:09 pm Report abuse
@198 Dove

After that latest clash with DAB... back to Bedfordshire, then ???
202 Doveoverdover (#) Nov 08th, 2012 - 10:23 pm Report abuse
@201 No, just reading that paper again, watching DCI Banks, the News and then dog walking. One has to have a life beyond Mercopress you know.

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