Thursday, November 22nd 2012 - 14:50 UTC

Argentina’s outbursts backfire: Judge Griesa orders payment to holdout bond investors

Argentina suffered a stinging blow late Wednesday when New York federal judge Thomas Griesa, citing threats by the country's leaders to defy his rulings in a decade-old dispute over defaulted sovereign bonds, ordered immediate payment.

Judge Griesa based the ruling on threats by Argentina leaders to defy his rulings

Cristina Fernandez repeating she would not succumb to the 'vulture funds'

In a ruling the US District Judge rejected Argentina's request to maintain his previous order halting payments to holdout investors who did not participate in two bond exchanges of defaulted sovereign debt.

The ruling is the latest development in a litigation saga that has lasted more than ten years and now appears to be favouring holdout bond investors such as Elliot Management Corp's NML Capital Ltd and Aurelius Capital Management.

If Griesa's ruling is upheld and Argentina chooses to defy him, US courts could ultimately inhibit debt payments to creditors who accepted the terms of the restructuring, out of consideration for investors who rejected Argentina's terms at the time.

This would trigger a technical default on approximately 24 billion dollars worth of debt issued in the 2005 and 2010 exchanges.

Last week, Argentina, which defaulted on its bonds in 2002, asked Griesa to keep his stay order in place while the US 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals for New York considered the country's request for a revisitation of an unfavourable ruling in October.

Griesa wrote that he would ordinarily leave his order in place pending a ruling from the 2nd Circuit. However, he concluded this was not possible given comments from Argentine officials, including President Cristina Fernandez, that Argentina would not pay anything to the holdout bondholders.

“It is the view of the District Court that these threats of defiance cannot go unheeded, and that action is called for,” Griesa wrote, saying the payments should be made as soon as possible.

The 2nd Circuit already upheld Griesa's February 23, 2012 decision that Argentina violated equal-treatment provisions for all creditors when it chose to pay exchange bondholders and not holdout bondholders.

Given that Griesa's latest decision still needs the final blessing of the 2nd Circuit, he ordered that rather than Argentina paying the plaintiffs directly, it should deposit the money in an escrow account by December 15.

There was no official immediate reaction from the Argentine Executive but for the head of the Lower House block Agustin Rossi who accused Judge Griesa of ‘systematically acting against the recommendations of the Federal Reverse and in favour of the investment or ‘vulture’ funds’.

“It is a decision that only merits criticism and repudiation”, said lawmaker Rossi.
“This financial speculation policy of creditors should be condemned not only by us but by the international community” said Rossi who nevertheless admitted “not knowing the technicalities of the ruling and thus I’m only giving a personal opinion”.

Finally he ‘absolutely supported’ the decision of Nestor and Cristina Kirchner of restructuring Argentina’s sovereign debt, in two stages (2005 and 2010) to which adhered 91% of bondholders”.

 

163 comments Feed

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1 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:02 pm Report abuse
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!
2 Spainexpat (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:08 pm Report abuse
lol - Can't wait for Christina's speech (rant) about this. “I won't be pressured or bullied!”
3 Idlehands (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:08 pm Report abuse
This will be interesting. If they refuse to place the money in escrow then they are clearly indicating they have no intention of obeying the court should the final decision go against Argentina.

This places them in a very awkward situation as they have to decide on their response pre emptively to the courts decision.

It's like watching a game of poker where everyone knows that Argentina is holding a 2 and a 7 off suit.
4 yankeeboy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:08 pm Report abuse
I wonder where this will lead, when the bonds were “restructured” the new issue guaranteed (by RG law so you know what that means) that every bondholder would be treated equally.. There are still about U$40B or so in current litigation from Italian/German/Japan bondholders that I am sure would like equal treatment as well
This could get very messy for Chrissy,
Has she got out of bed yet today?
5 Room101 (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
Next step for CFK: change national currency to Yuan...
6 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:14 pm Report abuse
Oh, I am waiting, just waiting for the trolls to wake up....... I can't wait for them to try and put a positive spin on this..... or try and talk about something else......
7 jkw (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:19 pm Report abuse
#1 tooold....I'm laughing too, but it's a sad laugh at the black humor of it all.....

Griesa.....Nixon appointee (It was Nixon who asked China to be the US outsource slave labor partner....and then the Viet Nam war went away) and Pete Singer (not the ethicist Pete Singer) is a vulture capitalist rather like Romney, who buys distressed bonds, i.e., he was allowed to buy them during the debt restructuring in Judge Griesa's court, and he is a fervent Republican Party supporter....
8 LEPRecon (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:23 pm Report abuse
@7 - Jew

So you're saying that it isn't Argentina's fault that you borrowed money that they won't pay back, it's Nixons fault!?!?!

Strange spin on the subject, but HEY Argentina still owes lots of money, let's keep to the point.
9 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:32 pm Report abuse
7 jkw

oh, and it all comes crashing down. It's ok having a drink in the last chance saloon, but sooner or later the bill arrives and then YOU'VE GOT TO PAY IT!!

I would invite you to think about this:- Shouting and screaming about how unfair things are only draws attention to yourself. If Cristina Fernandez had just got on with it instead of making so much noise, Argentina could have had more time.

Remember? softly, softly catchee Monkey............
10 Spainexpat (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:36 pm Report abuse
This is a spectacular own goal by CFK and her cronies - if they had kept quiet and played by the refs rules they would have time for the various appeals and with the IMF red card looming I would say it's game over...
11 Raul (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:36 pm Report abuse
Strength Cristina! Force Argentina!! Latinoamerica Force!!

Most Argentines are proud of Cristina! . She, Argentina and Latin America are fighting against colonialism and economic imperialism of the United States and England. They are the economic Pirates of the 21st century.
12 surfer (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:40 pm Report abuse
They really are between a rock and a rather hard place, pay the vultures or default, hmmm
13 Mrlayback (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:41 pm Report abuse
shut up Raul ... I live here and that is far from the truth !

The president of the Banco Ciudad Federico Sturzenegger came on stage today after a US Judge ruling against Argentina over vulture funds was known. “The way this issue was addressed is probably the worst case of malpractice seen in the government of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner,” he added.

He stressed Cristina Fernández de Kirchner’s administration “sought” the ruling to “hide” the country’s domestic issues. He furthered questioned the government’s way to address the issue of those holdout investors who did not participate in two bond exchanges of defaulted sovereign debt.
14 jkw (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:50 pm Report abuse
#9 tooold.....Law of Sea Tribunal hearings next week....you ain't seen trumping 'til you see a jurisdictional trump fight between a US Fed Dist court and “foreign” binding tribunal....these boys play rough....it's called tying your hands....and if anyone thinks that Argentina would be treated “more” fairly if it kept its mouth shut, that someone doesn't even begin to understand the depravation of global banking interests and their control of governments....

And #8leprecon... if you really want to understand what's going on in a billion dollar debt resettlement case, it is ALWAYS bright to know your judge and the players.....and the background.....imagine how long Griesa has been a judge......think hard about it....
15 surfer (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:51 pm Report abuse
I do quite like the contrast between the two photos.

She's all, yadda, yadda, unfair, vultures, we don't want to pay, give us our ships back etc..

Griesa's deadeye stare says it all, 'you just got owned'.
16 ElaineB (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:57 pm Report abuse
If the Argentine people really did want to appear the 'victim' they would tell CFKC and her gang of muppets to engage their brains before speaking. Mouth Almighty has once again caused trouble for Argentina because she threw a hissy fit and spouted off without thought to the consequences. Does anyone have a clue about diplomacy in that government? Does anyone play chess? Why can't they think beyond the next move?

I suspect her goon making thinly veiled death threats to Moyano will have similar consequences.
17 Simon68 (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:57 pm Report abuse
11 Raul (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:36 pm

You are absolutely right about one thing, the members of the Argentine government are “the economic Pirates of the 21st century.”
18 nigelpwsmith (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
I'm just laughing at the fact that it was CFK's own statements that encouraged the Judge to rule in favour of the hold-outs. Opened her mouth wide enough to put both feet in it.

You should never say anything to a Judge to indicate that you intend to act unfairly, because it forces them to defend the people you intend to act unfairly against.

The statements by other Argentine politicians will only make things worse. If the money is not deposited on escrow pending the appeal, the US court will know that Argentina intends to defy the court. The court will undoubtedly rule against them again in that case.

If Argentina defaults (and I have no doubt they will because they have no money) then the US financial system will be closed to them - quickly followed by the European system. Then it will be impossible for Argentina to get oil, except through Chavez. Then the slippery slope to financial collapse.
19 Idlehands (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
14 jkw

Turning it into a big conspiracy now?

Couldn't the simplt truth be that people lent you some money and they want it all back as per the contract? It may shock you to hear that is how the rest of the world operates.
20 yankeeboy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 03:59 pm Report abuse
14. Why is it that Rgs lose a debate, suit etc they immediately attack the venue/person? It is very childish. It just shows how dumb you are.

At some point the country as a whole, it's politicians and people need to grow up and become responsible for their actions.
21 Raul (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:06 pm Report abuse
13 Mrlayback

Raul shut ... I live here and it is far from the truth!

Pathetic and sad.
Who are you to silence others? What are you, God?
I also live in my country and most Argentines who know perfectly Debt fostered in the past and those who seek to re-enslave the financial savage capitalism.
Surely You live longing dollars financial and parental leave for Miami.

Unfortunately you're in favor of vulture funds and multinationals. These subject and mentally colonized by the British.
We've learned nothing from the crisis of 2001 caused primarily by neoliberal policies and exploitative capitalism and American English.
22 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:07 pm Report abuse
Ca-chin!! ca-chin!!

That's the sound of Elliot's Mgt. check to the order of Judge Griesa going through just now.
23 Mrlayback (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:16 pm Report abuse
no ! I said SHUT UP Raul ! who are you to say CFK is strong when she clearly is not, You're the one stating Most Argentines are proud of her ! like you speak for them, so who believes they are god ! You're pathetic and sad living in the same bubble as does the rest of the K's !
24 wesley mouch (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:18 pm Report abuse
Old turkey neck is going down. So is fat boy Maximo. The question is do the Argentines have the cojones for armed revolt and garrotte the criminal Peronists?
25 Idlehands (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:21 pm Report abuse
I don't think garrotting anyone is going to help. However I would like to see CFK suffer a similar fate to the numerous previous presidents that have been charged with varying crimes against the state - in her case theft of assets.
26 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:25 pm Report abuse
'There was no official immediate reaction from the Argentine Executive but for the head of the Lower House block Agustin Rossi who accused Judge Griesa of ‘systematically acting against the recommendations of the Federal Reverse and in favour of the investment or ‘vulture’ funds’.'

Someone forgot to tell cristina a few things about America's Judicial process....for one it is not subject to outside forces....politicans, private agencies like the Federal Reserve or take bribes. And the most important thing is, no Judge in the USA takes kindly and deals swiftly with insolence, foot stomping and saber rattling.

While I do believe the laws in regards to soveriegn debts need to be addressed, the fact remains that as they currently stand, NML are currently within the rights and the law as they now are written. If Argentina was a leader, they would be working to pay the holdouts off and change the laws going forward. Instead, they try to find an easy and quick solution by refusing to pay and it all backfires in their faces like an exploding pie. This will get worse before it gets better because we all know what asslips course of action will be, resist until the end.
ASSLIPS KIRCHNER.......the smart people learn from their mistakes....you are apparently unteachable.
27 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:25 pm Report abuse
@25

So as a non-hipocrite I'm sure that given your position towards the Argentine presidents, you would be in favor of the immediate arrest of all US presidents since Roosevelt. So Carter, Clinton and Bush and Obama should be arrested and charged immediately with theft of assets.
28 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:26 pm Report abuse
@21 Raul (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:06 pm

PMSL!!!!!

Proof positive that indoctrination, dogma and Google Translate do not mix.
29 Idlehands (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:28 pm Report abuse
Why would I care about your list of US presidents?? What are they supposed to have stolen?
30 Conqueror (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:30 pm Report abuse
@11 Never mind. It's all swings and roundabouts. These are the roundabouts. You've already had the swings. What next? The sand pit. So you can hide your head? I do hope that your accusation against the respected judiciary of the United States gets plenty of coverage. It puts your rants against British “pirates” into context. Anybody who calls you to account, obstructs youy or makes you pay your debts is a “pirate”, right?

On a different facet of issues, what have you done with your list of pointless UN resolutions now that the Secretary General has said it's hogwash? How long did people on here spend telling you it was hogwash? Perhaps you'll believe us next time!
@14 Desperation setting in, eh? ITLOS cannot change Griesa's ruling. Nor can it interfere in a judicial process that has nothing to do with the sea. Moreover, it has yet to be established that ITLOS has jurisdiction. You really should read UNCLOS! Final thought. The “case” at ITLOS is between Ghana and argieland. Nothing to do with the U.S. What was it you argued on another thread? That argieland should not be held to account for corrupt officials? So now the Cow From Kuckooland and Herman BigMouth have brought your woes right to the fore with their own mothings and rants. Tough. Now pay up!
31 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:36 pm Report abuse
@29

Country X issues debt paper promising to be the bondholder in Y currency. Country X issues paper for a long time, then country X falls in a major economic crisis.

Country X decidesd by a law of congress and executive to unilateraly change the terms of all the issued paper, WITH NO NEGOTIATIONS with the bondholders, and announces it will not pay back in Y currency, but in Z currency.

Z currency is worth not even 1/3 of currency Y.

They also decide to institute a hard “clamp-on” currency Y. In fact they went further eventually, the confiscated currency Y by force on penalty of IMPRISONMENT.

Do you call scenario that theft and default?

I'm sure you do, because that is Argentina's situation that I just outlined right?

WRONG. Argentina has not gotten as far as imprisoning for holding dollars. So who is the country in the scenario above??

spectator.org/archives/2009/01/21/was-there-ever-a-default-on-us/print

“...U.S. bonds, including those issued to finance the American participation in the First World War, provided the holders of the bonds with an unambiguous promise that the U.S. government would give them the option to be repaid in gold coin.

Nobody doubted the clarity of this ”gold clause“ provision or the intent of both the debtor, the U.S. Treasury, and the creditors, the bond buyers, that the bondholders be protected against the depreciation of paper currency by the government.

Unfortunately for the bondholders, when President Roosevelt and the Congress decided that it was a good idea to depreciate the currency in the economic crisis of the time, they also decided not to honor their unambiguous obligation to pay in gold...”

Your Anglo-saxon cousins, who else!! The superior humans as we are told.

This has been so succesfully buried by the Americans that even I didn't know about it.

In other words, the USA is still in default and a deadbeat, and every president since then has refused to pay the bondholders the promised amount in gold coin. lol
32 Idlehands (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:41 pm Report abuse
Nothing like missing the point.

I was talking about the money the Kirchners stole from the Santa Cruz province in 1993 - nothing to do with her provisions or lack thereof for repaying bonds.
33 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:44 pm Report abuse
@32

Not answered my question. Given the scenario above, did the USA default and engage in theft of bonholders and in a clamp-down in 1933 yes or no?

(remember they also engaged in closing banks for 180 days, nothing else but a “corralito”)
34 Anbar (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:45 pm Report abuse
“”“However, he concluded this was not possible given comments from Argentine officials, including President Cristina Fernandez, that Argentina would not pay anything to the holdout bondholders.
“It is the view of the District Court that these threats of defiance cannot go unheeded, and that action is called for,” Griesa wrote, ”“”

that'l learn ya Crissy: what you say can come back to haunt you. If this does go through (and may i remind some that it may not do so) then she will have to learn a harsh lesson: one that will, as is so often the case, one paid for by Argentines..and not the fat-cat politicians.

-----------

“”“Unfortunately you're in favor of vulture funds and multinationals. These subject and mentally colonized by the British.
We've learned nothing from the crisis of 2001 caused primarily by neoliberal policies and exploitative capitalism and American English.”“”“

lolololololololololololololololololololololol

Talk about random platitudes or what...? desperation attempt at deflection... good lordy but what a classic!

------

”“”Ca-chin!! ca-chin!!

That's the sound of Elliot's Mgt. check to the order of Judge Griesa going through just now.“”“”

I kinda doubt it - I'm afraid Cristina did all the hard work on this herself.

Sorry, but that's the bottom line: she shot herself in the foot, nobody else needed to do anything, bribes least of all: they just didnt need to, she talked herself into this position.
35 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:48 pm Report abuse
@34

Argentina won't and should not respect a court based on a country that has been in default for 79 years and still refuses to sit down and negotiate with the defaulted bondholders, and to repay them in the original promised currency.
36 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:53 pm Report abuse
#35 titti boi stop living in history and get caught up with the present. All your trolls do here is try to divert and move away from the topic on the article. Focus boi.....would you like some riddlin for your ADHD?
37 ChrisR (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:56 pm Report abuse
Argentina are deeply in the fudge at all levels of the elected rabble, just look what Rossi said:

”“It is a decision that only merits criticism and repudiation”, said lawmaker Rossi.
“This financial speculation policy of creditors should be condemned not only by us but by the international community” said Rossi who nevertheless admitted “not knowing the technicalities of the ruling and thus I’m only giving a personal opinion”.

Finally he ‘absolutely supported’ the decision of Nestor and Cristina Kirchner of restructuring Argentina’s sovereign debt, in two stages (2005 and 2010) to which adhered 91% of bondholders”.”

How can any reasonable person even consider doing business with idiots like this?
38 Spainexpat (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:57 pm Report abuse
@35 Nostril

The US settled the defaulted bonds in 1936. So back to the subject of the court ruling.
39 agent999 (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:04 pm Report abuse
@35
Your post are starting to be more obscure than when you were posting under all your other aliases.
Why do you believe that just by changing your identity your posts will have more authority?
40 yankeeboy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:13 pm Report abuse
39. Toby switches identities after every melt down.
It doesn't look like this one is going to last very long.

Anybody know if CFK has gotten out of bed yet? Methinks her high blood pressure might be a bit elevated today.
haha

Barley para todos
41 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:17 pm Report abuse
@38 Spainexpat (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 04:57 pm

Surely you're not saying that Toby only did half a job with his research?
42 Spainexpat (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:20 pm Report abuse
@ 41 War Monkey

Yes I know, Toby is normally such a reliable source of information. I too was shocked! lol
43 Orbit (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:28 pm Report abuse
@40 CFK is busy asking where Wenck is.
44 Optimus_Princeps (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:29 pm Report abuse
I guess it's possible to deceive certain types of people domestically, but the world at large isn't as susceptible to the rantings botox inflated idealists.

Raul, next time your morbidly obese mother decides to buy a shopping cart full of beef and potatoes, realize that it was paid for by the tax dollars of Argentinians that don't like to subsidize laziness and corruption. Also, your job, if you have one was given to you out of government pity, not because you have any qualifications to speak of.
45 Trunce (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:36 pm Report abuse
Bi-Polar Argentina. Strutting belligerently with one leg, whilst limping like a victim with the other.

Result - ever decreasing circles until disappearing up ones own rectum....
46 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
@14

•We ALL agree that Argentina can stop putting it's money in NYC banks.

THAT'S the only money Griesa interprets law over. If you don't like how U.S. lawmakers are ruling (to the BEST of their ability), you can trust your own banks & currency instead!

•WE ALL AGREE HERE that IMF, IDBC, World Bank should not lend to any government that ppl feel are corrupt. If they do so, then it's citizens feel less invested in paying it back. It may be burdensome if they do pay it back.

I would love for them to use the score of Transparency International's Corruption Index. On a scale of 1-10, limit countries under 5 to grants only. Argentina would be on that list.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Take a look at those countries. Would ppl complain that people of color aren't getting access to development loans (for sewers, schools, etc) from rich countries then?? Yes. But I think on a deeper level, they'd be freer and would suprise ppl by growing BETTER.
47 scarfo (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:39 pm Report abuse
How apt that it was her big gob that pressed the judge to act sooner rather than later!
48 tobias (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:39 pm Report abuse
35 - Nostrolldamus The 2nd

I am obliged to inform you that you have exceeded your horse manure bandwidth limit for this week, combined with the cardinal sins of too much repetition and deviation.

Regrettably, this means that Nostrolldamus will be following TTT (kidnapped presumed dead), Elios (assassinated), the Gobawalkie (assassinated) and the others into oblivion.

Got a new nick ready?
49 Tabutos (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:41 pm Report abuse
hear that hammering sound? thats the sound of a nail in the Argentine coffin
50 Pirate Love (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 05:44 pm Report abuse
Hands up All Falklands Folk who want to be part of that!
an insight of life under the Argentine Dictocracy.

If blind persistence was argentinas currency they would be one of the richest countries in the world, but their debt to plain stupidity would forever be far greater.

There may be trouble ahead........on all fronts :))))))))))))))))))))))))

Hey, she still gets my vote! Princess Crustina forever shes the best ! wayhey!
great job HAhahahaaaaaa!!!
51 agent999 (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 06:06 pm Report abuse
@35
Unfortunately there is a limit on how many times you can play the trump card “the people of Argentina are not responsible for their leaders actions”.

You always harp back to WW1 and early 20th century US, British and European actions and say that we are all responsible for these actions, but are never prepared to accept the actions of your own leaders.

The majority of posters do not hate Argentina and its people, but do the have a problem with CFK & co. and their attitude to the rest of the world.
52 KFC de Pollo (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 06:23 pm Report abuse
@1 can i join in?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!
53 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 06:49 pm Report abuse
I agree w Nostrolldamus on this, too- the U.S. switching of bond payment from gold to currency was an incorrect action. (By a leftist pres, fyi).
I don't think they can open that back up domestically since it went it to the Supreme Court, but if they can internationally, GO-oo-OOD!

Howevs, ppl back then had access to gold privately. Here it says Argentines are banned: www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/2350

Srry for prepper site, lol
54 LightThink (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 06:50 pm Report abuse
to the all comments owners ( @1.......up to my this comment)
------------------------
do your cheers come from below numbers ?
------------------------
your country South Africa has * 400 $ billions GDP
your country South Africa has * 120 $ billions EXTERNAL DEBTS

your envied country Argentina has * 450 $ billions GDP
your envied county Argentina has *140 $ billions EXTERNAL DEBTS.

if you defend UK here .... !

your reverence country UK has * 2,4 $ trillions GDP
your reverence country UK has * 9,9 $ trillions EXTERNAL DEBTS

if you admire USA here .....!

your admirer country USA has * 14,5 $ trillions GDP
your admirer country USA has * 16 $ trillions EXTERNAL DEBTS.
55 stick up your junta (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 06:51 pm Report abuse
@52
AND ME :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
56 ElaineB (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 07:07 pm Report abuse
I think the joy shown here is for the corrupt Kirchner oligarchy being thwarted in their attempts to bluff and threaten their way out of the impending collapse. They have systematically robbed the people of Argentina (and foreign investors) in their quest for power and money.

Sure, corruption is endemic and it is hard to find someone not on the make or finding ways to avoid paying taxes (apologies for the few Argentines that do) but this turning a bling eye to it has to become socially unacceptable. I doubt it will; it never has in Italy where the custom was imported from.

I won't be rejoicing when my friends there feel the full effects of CFKC's mismanagement. Remember they really do not get to hear the truth for most of the time and have no real idea of the extent of the mess they are in.

The Kirchner oligarchy will be remembered, but not in the way they wish.
57 LightThink (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 07:07 pm Report abuse
by the way ........

change your Lesotho accented English please to write of what your thinking at global arena...
58 jkw (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 07:16 pm Report abuse
#26 Captain Poppy.....

If your assertion were correct that a US Federal Court judge would “punish” CFK for her behavior and her loud mouthed arrogance (my words) by acting against Argentina's “case”, I can assure you that you would have impugned that Judge's integrity and his ability to be an impartial arbiter....

So, here's your chance, Captain Poppy: is that what you really reallly wanted to say?
59 Pugol-H (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 07:23 pm Report abuse
1.3 Billion USD, CFK's little outburst has just cost the Argie taxpayer.

And think that is just the tip of the iceburg.
60 jkw (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 07:46 pm Report abuse
#59 Pugol-H...

It is irritating to see that you and #26 Captain Poppy hold a US Federal Judge in such low esteem. NO US Federal Court Judge of 30 years standing would ever let a loudmouthed obnoxious litigant cause him to cast a ruling out of pique exposing him to charges of partisanship....This Judge is an old Nixon appointee from the “let's be friends with China era” , and therefore conservative and business oriented and in his District, quite used to prima donnas....
61 surfer (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:00 pm Report abuse
Is it too early to start teeing up the idea of a 3rd Default??

It's just I'm beginning to see a pattern emerging.

Wonder how well funding is going for YPF these days?
62 Pugol-H (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:05 pm Report abuse
@60 jkw
Did you actually read the above article.

“Griesa wrote that he would ordinarily leave his order in place pending a ruling from the 2nd Circuit. However, he concluded this was not possible given comments from Argentine officials, including President Cristina Fernandez”.

“It is the view of the District Court that these threats of defiance cannot go unheeded, and that action is called for,” Griesa wrote, saying the payments should be made as soon as possible.

In his ruling, Griesa said the less time Argentina was given “to devise means for evasion, the more assurance there is against such evasion.” – BA Herald

And WTF has Nixon got to do with this?
63 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:19 pm Report abuse
@62 is correct.

Besides @ jkw, not-so-honest Nixon CHAMPIONED the food stamp program, and others, made friends with Communist
China..
while..
JFK, many times, had said his FIRST priority was to battle Communism worldwide. (remember communist Vietnam ASKED to be the U.S.'s friend). JFK attempted to attack Castro when JFK started it, the U.S. installed nuclear missiles aimed at Russia in Turkey. JFK accomplished near zero for U.S. citizens. I am welcome to info otherwise.

Names of political parties, or how pretty are person is-externals. They may not reflect a leader's eventual accomplishments.
64 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:19 pm Report abuse
52 KFC de Pollo

Of Course!!!! Welcome aboard!!!

Although, in keeping with the season that is almost upon us, shouldn't it be ho, ho, ho????
65 stick up your junta (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:27 pm Report abuse
Wheres think when you want him?

Argentina’s Stockholm syndrome
www.buenosairesherald.com/article/117532/argentina’s-stockholm-syndrome
66 Condorito (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:33 pm Report abuse
65
Think is over there on the article about Bolivia being annexed by Brazil.
67 Anbar (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:41 pm Report abuse
“”“”your envied country Argentina has * 450 $ billions GDP
your envied county Argentina has *140 $ billions EXTERNAL DEBTS.“”“”

external debt is pretty much irrelevant unless you also quote the amount of external debt owned by the country also.

its a nice figure to waive around, but its meaningless without the other figure.

(Which isnt to say that i disagree that the UK is a nightmare scenario, up shit-creek and with only one paddle {and that made from hot-air & scotch mist} ... because I DO agree.... i'm not blinded by the “it'll be alright m8ty” people who seem to think that huge debts, that we can only pay off by borrowing even more money, selling more gilts and “printing more money”{ even though, technically “quanitative easing” is merely the non-printing of electronic monies}... regardless : there a hoofing HUGE debt that needs paying off and ignoring it in the hopes of it going away is even rasher than having a president who cant keep her gob shut!))

so, yes, big debt, but “external debt” is a clever piece of propaganda without other figures alongside it.
68 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:42 pm Report abuse
@38

Oh really? Where is your source?
69 Anbar (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:53 pm Report abuse
“”“Argentina won't and should not respect a court based on a country that has been in default for 79 years and still refuses to sit down and negotiate with the defaulted bondholders,”“””

actually it probably will.

sorry, but thats the harsh reality.... pride only gets you so far, unless you are Argentine in which case pride usually ends up hurting you a lot more than helping you... particularly where your governments are concerned.

less pride, more realism, would do a lot of good for all of Argentina (although the same could be said of the US & UK.... I hasten to add).

Blanket “no!”'s to the world superpower and thumbing your nose at their judiciary just makes you look stupid and ends up working against you, regardless (caps) of whatever pride you may think you retain.

seriously - this is a big FUBAR of your presidents creation for which the Argentine population may suffer the fallout for years or even decades.

and I totally agree with the “stockholm” article that much of Argentinas woes are self-inflicted through crappy government...but I take on-board what many Latam & Argentines say on here, which is: there's no alternative so wtf are we supposed to do?

Fwiw you have my sympathies.
70 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:55 pm Report abuse
@68 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:42 pm

usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/Has-US-Ever-Defaulted-On-Its-Debt.htm
71 Steve-32-uk (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 08:59 pm Report abuse
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/22/american-ruling-fears-default-argentina
72 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:02 pm Report abuse
@69

You can think what you will, you will find that the most likely conclusion to this little contrived saga is that the 95% that agreed to a hair-cut will turn on Elliot Management, Singer, and co.

When the 95% stop getting their money, they are not going to go banging to Argentina's door. They were getting payed.

They are smart people and will realize that the reason they no longer are getting their money is because some greedy multimillionaire that refuses to sit down and negotiate because he wants 100% for reasons of personal pride and cupidity. Furthermore they will conclude that this Mr. Singer doesn't give a sh!t about the 95%, because he is willing to screw them over just for his little personal quest.

In the meantime, Argentina won't pay anyone, and keeps the money. If it is forced to pay in full to everyone, it will simply default and no one gets any money.

And this process can repeat ad nauseum until the sun develops a fever.

As time passes, successive governments in Europe and the USA will grow tired of a matter that happend 20, 30, 40 years ago, and will put the kibosh on all litigation by some sort of grand agreement.

Singer will have been dead long ago, and his scions won't be any richer.
73 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:06 pm Report abuse
@monkey
Cool article. I didn't know the 1790 thing was just a voluntary trade in for state bonds IF ppl could hold them for ten.
And didn't understand that in 1936 some ppl WERE paid in gold.
74 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:18 pm Report abuse
@71

Germany did not settle its default of 1929 and 1932 for over two decades.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

You may all say this crap was 70 years ago and blah blah blah. The point here is that debt default final settlements don't occur in 24 hours after a default. It takes at least 3-4 years and in most cases over a decade to bring final resolution, in example after example of nations that have defaulted, which as we can see includes the vast majority of what today people call “responsible” nations.
75 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:22 pm Report abuse
Noone has expectations thiswhole thing is payed in 24 hours. He is making his ruling effective in 24 hours that every time there is a payment to someone who accepted 30 cents on the dollar, that there will need to be a payment to the tiny percentage who request to still be paid in full.
76 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:25 pm Report abuse
@74 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:18 pm

Oh I am sorry. You have moved the goalpost again. You were accusing the USA of being in default for 79 years. Now proved wrong you are gunning after Germany instead. Only they are not in default either because, as you said, their 1929 and 1932 debts were settled 20 years later.

So what are you saying now? That Argentina WILL pay her debts in 3 or 4 years (a restructuring) or, as KFC shouts very loudly, not at all? Make your mind up and don't keep changing it. That is what makes you sound so bloody foolish. It also makes it very easy to shoot your arguments down in flames.
77 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:28 pm Report abuse
72 Nostrolldamus The 2nd

Don't feel too badly about... Argentina was caught with it's hand in the cookie jar and now it's time to pay.

We all know that Argentina has the longest pockets and the shortest of any country in the world, Scotland included.... and Laughing boy Timerman is so mean that he only breathes in.

Actually “When the 95% stop getting their money” Well if 5% ARE getting their money then that's better than no one getting their money, as is happening at the moment.

As I understand the situation, Argentina has now been told to pay up.

KFC / Ol' Turkey Neck / TMBOA / Asslips Kirchner / The Harpy has said on many, MANY occasion that Argentina has the money.

So what is the problem? answer me that! come on answer it!!! Argentina owes money, Argentina has the money, what is the problem??

Unless, unless,unless ( gasp!! shock!!! horror!!! ) unless KFC / Ol' Turkey Neck / TMBOA / Asslips Kirchner / The Harpy has been LYING!!! and Argentina hasn't actually got a pot to piss in!!!

But we know that's not true don't we? because “LightThink” was on here boasting how the whole world was going to hell in a handcart and how RICH Argentina is so she can afford to pay up

So what is the problem?

Lets see now..... 450 $ billion.....take away the debt that she owes.... 140 $ billion............and that leaves Argentina with 310 $ billion. There, everyone is happy!!

So what is the problem?
78 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:30 pm Report abuse
@75

Hide under technicalities all you wish. You know if Argentina payed in full, the others would demand the same.

When that happens, no one gets paid... and then what? Is Singer going to send his army and navy to bombard BA? lol

Oh but yes, you will tecnically have forced ARG into another default. Hurray, your ego was satisfied. That feeling will last you an hour, maybe a a half day.

After that... your scruples at some point will remind you and the other anti-argies that for your pathetic little vendetta games you screwed millions of small people that had accepted to get something, and now again have nothing... (and will likely not get anything ever again because there won't be a 3rd time).

Argnetina has operated under default conditions for 10 years, and it can keep doing so with a moderate tightbelting that includes letting AR go (2 billion a year), end the football for free (600 million), and modest cuts across budget (2-3 billion).

And... then what?

;0
79 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:42 pm Report abuse
78 Nostrolldamus The 2nd

More sour grapes anyone?? just remember, Nostrolldamus The 2nd You are what you drink...and you ARE a bitter man!!

But Argentina doesn't have to “under default conditions for 10 years” 'cos they can afford to pay up.....

LOL you crazy trolls!! You have to get your stories striaght before you start posting... I think you just got butt f**ked by friend LightThink......

Oh well, tis better to give than to receive.................
80 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:43 pm Report abuse
@78 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:30 pm

Eh? Anti Argie? No. That is just your perception. You and your country are victims fighting your corner.

If that is true then you are victims of your own making. Nobody has forced anything on you and, one or two exceptions granted, nobody is anti Argie. Get over yourself princess.
81 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:43 pm Report abuse
Should --Singer renegotiate down to 75 cents on the dollar? That's up to him, but it WOULD be the kind thing.

Should --Kirchner renegotiate and pay MORE than 30 cents on the dollar to the pensioners or whoever they passed it to?

Totally unrelated, do you think there's a movie in The Joker Vs. Poison Ivy????????????????????

This case has advanced the course of int'l law. Most new bond contracts now contain clauses saying that renegotiation is for THE WHOLE. Even though the gov may sell less bonds, it's safer.
82 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:51 pm Report abuse
@79

You appear arrantly doltish in self-proclaiming victories from the fact that my “story line” does not match the story line of your other imaginary argie-trolls. Not all of us have flights of fancy into the realm of sciamachy.

“We” are also are individuals with different opinions on the situation... you really believe all of that La Campora crap you read here do you? hahahah, poor thing.

@80

Anti-argie sentiment is rampant and worldwide, it is a well-known fact. On the other hand, us argies don't really even care about Europeans, Americans, or Latin Americans, much less others.

@81

Good for int'l law then. But it didn't came soon enough for the Argentina case. Too bad I guess (for the bondholders).

Should... Well, should is the word. But Singer you know well will not sit down and negotiate, thus why should Argentina? The country is not screaming to re-enter the capital markets.
83 War Monkey (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:57 pm Report abuse
@82 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#)
Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:51 pm

“Anti-argie sentiment is rampant and worldwide, it is a well-known fact. On the other hand, us argies don't really even care about Europeans, Americans, or Latin Americans, much less others.”

And yet here you are arguing passionately with those people you care not a jot about.

We are still not anti Argentine. It's all in your head. Go and see a shrink about it, I hear they are ten for a penny in BA.
84 ElaineB (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:57 pm Report abuse
@72 The 93% that agreed to a reduced return will realize that the reason they no longer are getting their money is because some greedy multimillionaire- CFKC - that refuses to sit down and negotiate the payment in full owed to the remaining 7%.

You can try to twist it anyway you will but CFKC's big mouth has screwed the Argentine people. She claims she has the money to pay but won't pay because she doesn't want to. She also claims she will not abide by the court ruling. Stupid moo! No wonder Nestor use to keep her chained up, he knew she was thick as a brick shit-house.
85 Pirate Love (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 09:59 pm Report abuse
Argentina & backfire in the same sentence, one truly never gets bored of hearing it, does one?
86 Xect (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 10:09 pm Report abuse
Seems we have many shades of grey here.

Argentina did indeed default through economic woes however it is really quite unclear to me if they should now be forced to repay the full sum, however by doing what Argentina has continually done then it most likely deserves the punishment it now is receiving.

All the grandstanding and vitriol CFK and her henchmen have put out is beyond reprehensible as is her economic and foreign policy.

She's pushed her luck way too much insulting global powers acting in a petulant and aggressive manner which she is completely unable to backup given Argentina is completely toothless against the world powers and it was always going to be only a matter of time before she was punished. Don't be surprised about getting bit if you poke a tiger with a stick.

Still should the decent people of Argentina be punished for her arrogance and ego? I don't think so even if she was voted into power by the people, it seems to me she isn't the same person the Argentine public voted into power and with the endless large rallies against her and very strong public opinion that she should leave office.
87 Ayayay (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 10:18 pm Report abuse
Overall, if I were Argentina I'd CELEBRATE.

If 93%(?) of the ppl get 30 % remuneration
+7% of ppl choose 100% remuneration

Then in total Arg is just paying 34.9%...BLACK FRIDAY don't mark down that low!!! Isn't that the best haircut in HISTORY? Argentina got forgiven 2/3 of the money (lots of which is still in Arg) AND it's claiming to be RICH.
88 yankeeboy (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 10:42 pm Report abuse
78. Argentina has reached the end of its rope.
All the money the Ks have looted over the years from internal sources is gone...GONE. gone.
The Int'l community is fed up with Arg being a scofflaw, ignoring rules, not paying debts.
End of the rope chico
You can not survive in your current form being isolated, what happens when you cant use the U$ to sell Soy? 'cause that is probably coming next
Gonna adopt the Yuan for internal trade? I don't think so
Your country is not diversified enough to survive without trade, didn't Peron try that 50 yrs ago and found it didn't work? Why do you think it will work now?
Your arrogance is your downfall
The whole country needs to be treated for NPD
When you look to Bolivia as a paragon of financial stability you know all is lost
well at least the rest of the world does
89 surfer (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 10:54 pm Report abuse
December 23rd, apparently that was the last default date back in 2001, just 1 month to go, wouldn't that be one hell of a coincidence if they did it again!!
90 scarfo (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 11:26 pm Report abuse
15

lols
91 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 11:46 pm Report abuse
@86

It makes no difference if we are “toothless” when you are toothless to really force Argentina to pay in full to everyone. Is never going to happen and you know it.

The only way would be to blockade the entire country's 3000km coastline, and eventually invade the country and no one has the money, resources, or will to do that these days, for some stupid debt that is mostly owed to fat billionaires.

@88

Argentina produces way too much food and other stuffs to be isolated by the rest of the world, it would hurt the USA, Europe, China, Russia, the Arabs and other Latin American countries that import our food too much.

If somehow you could force us not use dollars (very unlikely given you are about to have sharp rises in food next year because of your disastrous farming year, and cutting Argentina entirely would cause a steep inflation of food around the world, and the last thing you need is more instability in the Arab world... remember they are rioting cause food cost too much), most of the rest of the world would find other ways to get our food.
92 Xect (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 11:54 pm Report abuse
Ah Nostrolldamus.

You know better than that, in this modern globalized world you can destroy a country without blockading anything directly.

Impairing Argentina's ability to trade could destroy the country overnight.

I realise you support isolation and that is yours and Argentina's choice, however right now you are a economy which completely relies on global trade and as such are vulnerable to a number of measures that could be used against you.

Forcing a default on Argentina (which I do not support) would have dire effects on the country even if it is already locked out of money markets especially when combined with CFK's disastrous economic policies.
93 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 22nd, 2012 - 11:58 pm Report abuse
@92

Apparently we don't rely that much on it, since we just decide unilateraly to stop trade agreements with the EU, Chile, Mercosur, Mexico, China, Russia, and piss of the UK and USA for our trade policies.

But assuming you could destroy us somehow (default won't do it by a long shot, given the completely different situation from 2001)...

... “destroying” our economy and taxflow gets us to cough up the owed money how exactly?? lol
94 Clyde15 (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:01 am Report abuse
#77
Snide remarks again - you seem to have a dislike for Scotland slightly less than Argentina. Why is this ?
“We all know that Argentina has the longest pockets and the shortest of any country in the world, Scotland included.”

Here is a piece of factual information which no doubt you will discount. From Fiscal Studies report -Trends in charitable giving

” Region Compared with the control group
(Scotland), all other regions have
significantly lower rates of giving —
nearly 12 percentage points lower in
the south-east and around 6
percentage points lower in other
regions.
The size of the regional effects is
fairly large, with households outside
Scotland giving 50 to 60 per cent
less.
It would appear that the overpaid and cosseted South East of England are the most tight-fisted bunch in the UK.
No offence meant, by the way !
95 Xect (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:14 am Report abuse
@93 - I don't think and hope this wouldn't happen but destroying Argentina's ability to trade would actually be very easy.

How about the EU blocking Argentina's ability to trade or even worse how about the US/EU groups stopping Argentina's ability to trade via banking systems?

If you haven't looked recently have you seen the state Iran is in after the sanctions western powers applied against it? They were doing very well and now are utterly on their knees where as Argentina is already on its knees without any sanctions against it.

It's a pointless argument but if we are questioning the power of the Western world to wreck a countries economy, well that isn't really a question, just a fact.
96 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:20 am Report abuse
@14 jkw
“#9 tooold.....Law of Sea Tribunal hearings next week....you ain't seen trumping 'til you see a jurisdictional trump fight between a US Fed Dist court and “foreign” binding tribunal....these boys play rough....it's called tying your hands....and if anyone thinks that Argentina would be treated “more” fairly if it kept its mouth shut, that someone doesn't even begin to understand the depravation of global banking interests and their control of governments....”

“Binding tribunal” ?? No, Argentina has asked for a ruling, but Argentina has applied to make it 'non-binding' in case it does not come out in their favour.
97 War Monkey (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:26 am Report abuse
@94 Clyde15 (#)
Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:01 am

Try to ignore the trolls Bloke. You'll find most English folk don't make snide comments about their fellow Brits. They really are a vocal if tiresome minority. Honest.
98 Ayayay (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:34 am Report abuse
@91 Griesa's ruling applies to money in the U.S. It spefically directs NY Mellon bank. If Arg didn't want to pay, (this is a free-will world) I'm sure it can pull it's money out of U.S. banks and into pesos.
99 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 01:12 am Report abuse
@95

Including yours, of course. Should the EU decide not to like you anymore it could also destroy your economy, and your point was?

And you still didn't answer the question... once that is done, how do you make Argentina pay, if you coudn't when we actually had an economy?
100 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 01:37 am Report abuse
@99 Nozzy


And you still didn't answer the question... once that is done, how do you make Argentina pay, if you coudn't when we actually had an economy?”

Haven't the creditors started seizing assets from Argentina.
Pretty sure I've read that a couple of times, at least.
101 ElaineB (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 01:43 am Report abuse
Now they are shooting tourists. A US tourist has been shot for his dollars in Florida Street.

Exports are dropping.
102 Acchiappaladri (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 02:18 am Report abuse
@4 yankeeboy
“...There are still about U$40B or so in current litigation from Italian/German/Japan bondholders that I am sure would like equal treatment as well
...”
Sure! you can bet a lot of bucks on that: easy win ;-)
More... we don't want equal treatment, we want something better for HUMANITARIAN reasons. LOL LOL

Most of us are middle class or even working class individuals, often low income, old, retired, with hard earned savings robbed by Argentina ... many of us sadly died (only in Italy, about 20 thousands) while waiting for their investments to be duly paid up by an allegedly wealthy, powerful, democratic, compassionate, fast growing G-20 country :-( :-(
We deserve a special bonus!

But what is quite upsetting and stressing, reaffirming the idiocy of those populistic robbers is that your figures are NOT accurate:
If those US$40B are for the principal of Italian+German+Japanese investments in Tangobond , the amount never was so huge even when the default happened.
Argentina in December 2001 defaulted on about US$100B foreign debt, and a large share of it was actually owned by Argentine institutionals and individuals.
So litigations with Italians (unfortunately we have the lion share in this mess), Germans and japanese never totaled such a big amount (even considering the claim, that is today two times or more the principal).
After the two bond swaps actually not so many billions are left in litigations.
Very possibly with justUS$ 3-4B Argentina could settle all litigations and non litigated yet outstanding debt with Italians, Germans and Japanese.
That is PEANUTS for the great South American superpower ... it is so little that is not worth for the Presidenta to devote a bit of her precious time to our claim.
103 KFC de Pollo (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:12 am Report abuse
i'm still laughing!
104 Boovis (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 06:40 am Report abuse
Regarding external debt, the thinks and lightthinks and no brains of this world are very conveniently missing something out of their figures. The external debt includes all cash owed by financial institutions as well, which, when you compare to the figures owed by external debtors to our financial institutions, actually brings us out on top, hence our banks, fund managers etc etc are making profits at the moment. This is also why the UK is rated as a gold standard, aaa place to invest in. You can blind the ignorant with your figures without saying what they actually mean, or you can try and throw numbers around while deliberately hiding their true meaning, which either means you're ignorant or just devious, so which one are you?
105 CJvR (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:12 am Report abuse
Trying hard to suppress a severe case of shadenfreude over KFC's latest setback in her war on reality and sanity.
106 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:17 am Report abuse
94 Clyde15

“Snide remarks again - you seem to have a dislike for Scotland slightly less than Argentina. Why is this ?”

No, just a misguided attempt at humour, that's all. Peace brother!! Scotland is a wonderful place, I spent many a holday there. Loved it.
107 Mendoza Canadian (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 11:59 am Report abuse
I don't know anyone here who likes cfk anymore...even those who voted for her in the last election. Her propaganda machine via 678 is running full steam and all they talk about is getting rid of the evil Clarin Group...one the the last to be able to criticize her. I think the money spend on that alone could pay the debt. Then there is the amount spent on futball...the government is the only advertiser...brought to you by the presidencia of the nation....talk about a monopoly. Something is truly wrong here in disneyland.
108 Musky (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:14 pm Report abuse
Argentine government is scored spectacular own goals. It's spun out rhetoric and insults to those it owes money to, without once thinking that the trouble is all their own doing. 150 years ago the same government tried to sell an island it did not own to the Barings Bank, perhaps it should start selling islands it truly does own. CFK is flushing her country down the toilet.
109 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 12:15 pm Report abuse
Citing threats by the country's leaders to defy his rulings

These old outdated dinosaurs never learn do they,

.
110 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 04:39 pm Report abuse
@109

It's called the Anglo-saxon way. The British colonized nations have NEVER abided by a judge's ruling. Not once. 100% rate of insouciance.
111 ChrisR (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:01 pm Report abuse
110 Nostrolldamus The 2nd

Prove this assertation without using fudged article from Wikipedia.
112 toooldtodieyoung (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:04 pm Report abuse
110 Nostrolldamus The 2nd

Yeah, come on then, you've said it, now prove it!! ( sound of running feet ) or are you just going to ignore us ( again )??
113 Simon68 (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:06 pm Report abuse
110 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#)
Nov 23rd, 2012 - 04:39 pm

Just to mention one:

Ghana is abiding by a judge's ruling by not allowing ARA Libertad to leave port!!!!!
114 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:12 pm Report abuse
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-to-defy-prisoner-voting-ruling-8344392.html

Check mate.
115 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:42 pm Report abuse
Criminals have no rights titti boi....only ion south america because all the criminal are politicians

go back to mommas teat
116 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 05:51 pm Report abuse
@110 Nozzy
“. The British colonized nations have NEVER abided by a judge's ruling. Not once. 100% rate of insouciance”

“Checkmate”????

Hardly. A very poor attempt at providing an example, by you.
Britain has filed a legal response, requesting one of three alternatives. This is not ignoring a judge's ruling.

Besides which, you have yet to show that Britain and her previous colonies have “NEVER abided by a Judge's ruling”.

In other words, EVERY ruling needs to be shown to have been defied or ignored, to prove your statement.

What a stupid thing to say.

Back on topic:
The Judge made a very clear ruling against Argentina, not because of their tone, but because they told him that they were determined not to pay, regardless.
117 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 06:03 pm Report abuse
Question Troy off topic.....why would the European Union want to give criminals voting rights?
118 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 06:25 pm Report abuse
@115

I agree criminals should have no citizenship rights. However, the UK is part of the EU, you can't pick and choose what you agree with or not.

Again, your hipocrisy is showing mightily. Spain disagrees with letting Gibraltar participate in UEFA right? But if UEFA decides to allow them, and Spain is part of UEFA and agree to follow their edicts, woudn't you be the first to say that Spain needs to abide?

Check mate again. The UK may not like the idea, but that does not mean it can ignore and scoff the ruling. If they do, they are violating a court order, simple as that.

And then they are up to the level of argieland.
119 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 06:35 pm Report abuse
I have no idea, LOL

Personally, I think it's something they should lose if they are incarcerated.

However, I don't suppose it really matters in Britain or the EU.

This isn't South America, where it would allow criminals to vote for fellow criminals running for office.

How was your Thanksgiving, eat lots??
Are you going out shopping for Black Friday?

Lots of discounted items in the well-stocked stores, brimming with the latest consumer electronics.

I hear from the North American free press and free private financial reporting agencies that New Housing Starts are up this year in the US.
Congratulations on a recovering economy.
120 Clyde15 (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:19 pm Report abuse
#118

“However, the UK is part of the EU, you can't pick and choose what you agree with or not.”
Why not ? Most of the other EU countries ignored EU rulings in my experience.
Part of my job in UK Customs and Excise was checking on CAP policy and the payment of subsidies and also on EU Customs Duty Reliefs. I had to deal with many multi-national companies to check their compliance with the EU laws and protocols. These companies had branches throughout the EU with turnover in the Billions. I soon discovered that the UK was one of the very few that enacted these laws. In order to attract inward investment many countries just ignored the EU directives and let these companies do what they wanted. The Irish worked the pig carousel, Italy, Greece and Spain allowed claims for subsidies on non-existent olive groves and vineyards.
I had to defend my decisions against International lawyers employed by these companies. Lucky for me I was fireproof but it annoyed me to see factories being closed in the UK and opened elsewhere in countries with a more laissez - faire attitude.
I cannot disagree with your statement about voting rights for prisoners - we were stupid enough to hand over most of our sovereignty to an un-elected body.
121 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:26 pm Report abuse
“Why not ? Most of the other EU countries ignored EU rulings in my experience.”

Well, then... that settles it. You Europeans want the benefits of the system in trade and internatonal clout, but not the giving up of certain prerrogatives.

Sounds like you all are like petulant childs, who think negotation and compromise is all about “I get everything I want, you get nothing you want”.

Where I've heard this before lobbed against my country?

Check mate.

Nostrolldamus The 2nd... I may not be as crafty, deft, and lapidary in debate as the legendary one and only TTT, but ay I be worthy of his numinous oversight.
122 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:45 pm Report abuse
Victoria was once asked, why does half the world disagrees with the British,
She replied
Because only half the world is civilised.

1, the European court has no rights to override parliament, as proved by parliament its self,
2, Spain has no claim on Gibraltar,
But like Argentina, it would rather see the collapse of its own country, rather than see the rights of others to independence be achieved,
123 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:51 pm Report abuse
@122

Wrongo. Parliament cannot use its powers to override “interantional human rights”. Simple as that.

The UK has signed multiple treaties to that respect and is a member of the EU.

Unless you are ready to argue Afghanistan's parliament can pass a law stating that girls that go to school can be shot in the head, because they should stay home, and you or “international law” can't do anything about it because one cannot override the Afghan Parliament.

If you are ready to be non-hipocritical, respect. If not, then you are British.
124 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 07:56 pm Report abuse
Troy it was great...with my daughter and her in laws.....feast and 3 football (NFL) games were on from noon until midnight. Thanks for asking. I hate the way they push Chrsitmas here.......but shopping, no, I am back in the office.
You know, housing is the key to the economy here. Too many people were using houses as investments......buying and selling and that is what really pushed the crash, coupled with two ones, one of smoke screen, financed on credit. And the liberals getting people to buy homes that they just cannot afford. It's turning......but like an aircraft carrier.....long and slow
125 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 08:01 pm Report abuse
It has been discussed that parliament must be the overall law maker in the UK,
This is what is causing, and will cause further problems,
And why we will withdraw from the EU .

We think you may be slightly wrong,
We have no given up sovereignty and thus ones parliament must be the overriding factor,

Right or wrong, in this and future cases parliament will take control.

And will include getting rid of terrorist, to whom we have to pamper to...
As for afgan,
Its parliament can change laws, but if the taliban obeys them or not is up to the afgan courts to find and punish them…
126 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 08:25 pm Report abuse
Coorect me if I am wrong Briton, I always thought the EU was started to be a trading bloc. The it seem to move in the direction of being a intied nation with states....their own currency etc., kind of like the United States. However in the USA, each state is individually soveriegn. Am I far off mark?
127 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 08:38 pm Report abuse
Germany wants a federation based loosely on her own make up.

They and the French have always wanted a united states of Europe,
Some say it was to prevent war, some say different,
They already have a president, but he is unelected by the people, most don’t even know who he is, but as yet he has no power, but wants it,

We want a trading block, this is good, but unlike America, they are invading our private lives, almost everything we do is either EU controlled or directives,

Everyday more and more directives come down the pipe, and we have no control,
Even today, some say, Ireland is already a dependency of the EU , it has lost is sovereignty to set its own taxes without EU approval. you borrow money, then cant pay it back, the EU has you in its pocked,
We even have rules on the colour of apples, straightness of cucumbers and carrots, it’s a joke,
They want a corrupt and controlled state,
We want out, America is lucky in that sense at least you can say no,
They want to control everything we do and say.
So some way..
128 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 09:28 pm Report abuse
yeah well,,,,,our states are always at odds with the feds. We still have people in the south that want to succeed.......There's is only one planet and we really do have to find a way to work together.
129 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 09:38 pm Report abuse
true.

but as long as we have the like of wannaby dictators and empire builders
and the like,, no chance.

but still worth a try.
130 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 09:42 pm Report abuse
“There's is only one planet and we really do have to find a way to work together.”

This coming from an American is about as luscious, plummy, and thickly rich as Hitler denouncing Ahmadinejad of anti-semitism.
131 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 09:51 pm Report abuse
as Hitler denouncing Ahmadinejad of anti-semitism
he cant, his dead,

but if we sent CFK and hugo to mars,
Ahmadinejad and castro to pluto
that would quiet things down a bit, would it not.
132 PGH (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 10:00 pm Report abuse
91% of bondholders already accepted the debt restructuring. This is more like a “backspark”, it won't hurt us. What's a stage here is the fight against vulture funds, a fight in which we all should be united
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-19789745
133 briton (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 10:10 pm Report abuse
does that mean
we can all stop paying our debts,

were all for that then .lol.
134 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 11:56 pm Report abuse
I wonder if my bank will take 30 cents on the dollar for the balance of my mortgage.....
135 Ayayay (#) Nov 23rd, 2012 - 11:59 pm Report abuse
@121 numinous lol
136 Troy Tempest (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 12:04 am Report abuse
@124 Poppy
“You know, housing is the key to the economy here. Too many people were using houses as investments......buying and selling and that is what really pushed the crash, coupled with two ones, one of smoke screen, financed on credit. And the liberals getting people to buy homes that they just cannot afford. It's turning......but like an aircraft carrier.....long and slow”

And still your economy is far better than most.

Going to see Sacramento in-laws at Christmas. They lost three spec houses during the meltdown, and their jobs. Just barely hanging onto the house they live in - a classic case, unfortunately.
I did try and tactfully warn them with articles from The Economist and non-US sources, but there we are.
Finally, things are turning around for them now, though.

They will join us in Napa for a few tours.
137 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 12:14 am Report abuse
You should a great time. Sacramento is a nice city and Napa is beautiful wine country. My Argentine wife wants me to take her to Napa. Enjoy and have a great time. Ih you have the time, try to take a drive up north from Sacramento to the Ponderosa country in the land of the Redwoods with trees so large they bored a road through some of them. It's breath taking. Glad to hear your in laws are doing better, been through my up and downs as well. BTW....the Zinfindel is our onloy native grape/wine.....a bold red
138 PGH (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 12:16 am Report abuse
@133 briton
No. It means we all should strive for a more ethic world, where companies won't cause economic crisis for profit. lol.
139 ptolemy (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 12:49 am Report abuse
@138 PGH
Really? And when I don't make a car payment and the repo-man repossesses my car he doesn't make a profit doing the job on my economic crisis? Would you say the bank repossesing my car was unethical? Welcome to the real world.
140 PGH (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 01:00 am Report abuse
@139 ptolemy
In real world you can buy a debt for 1/100 its value and then harass the debtor claiming the whole debt plus interests. Is that ethical to you?
141 Zhivago (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 01:35 am Report abuse
124 CP
Glad you had a great Thanksgiving but that Dallas/Washington game sort of ruined that great “football” feeling, the Pats game was a bit of a runaway too!
142 PGH (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 02:23 am Report abuse
@139 ptolemy
More news from the real world: www.thenation.com/blog/171190/occupy-wall-street-activists-buy-debt-abolish-it
143 ptolemy (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 02:41 am Report abuse
Ethics do not really enter into the equation of buisness and finance,..unless dishonesty and theft occur wthin this system. You could easily argue that vulture funds are unethical but they are the consequence of the dishonesty of those who agreed to pay and but did not pay. There are always consequences to borrrowing and not paying.
144 Ayayay (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 05:31 am Report abuse
@nos2
meh, Griesa gets the equivalent of 72,000 pesos a month for being honesty. He continues to receive that same salary as a pension. And, he can add to that by teaching.

Anyways, he's obviously been observed for ethics by the U.S. exec branch that filed that amicus, found clean. He is rewarded for that skill.
145 Conqueror (#) Nov 24th, 2012 - 02:34 pm Report abuse
@35 Poor child. Country X invades territory Y. It then proceeds to dispossess and murder the owners of territory Y. Having done this to a great extent, country X then faces an attack from Z people who take over part of the territory. The Z people than say that they are a “country” and continue to dispossess and murder the owners of territory Y. THAT is argieland's situation. Criminals and murderers from Day 1. However, a judiciary “should” be separate from a state. Not the case in argieland, of course. Besides, if you want to play in someone else's ball-park, you have to comply with their rules.
@72 I wish argieland luck with that one....NOT. Problem is that CFK and argieland have now made this a major international issue. It's not going to go away!
@78 Your problem, not ours. Shouldn't be so corrupt and crooked, should you? And you want to know what happens if you run completely out of money? You die!
@91 You will pay what you are told to pay! And I seem to recall that Hitler was confident about what the Allies couldn't do. So was Saddam. And Gaddafi.
@99 Got any idea how much argie money is in the U.S., U.K. and E.U. banking systems?
@114 That old chestnut. You might want to consider that that stupid court's ruling, a court that could be challenged as it has little or no judicial experience or credibility, was started by a cold-blooded murderer!
@118 The court you refer to is not an EU institution!
@121 See immediately above. Also there has been no vote on UK membership of the EU for 37 years, during which it has changed considerably. And WE want OUT!
@123 Yes it can!
@132 Nope. You're on your own.
146 St.John (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 04:49 am Report abuse
I find it very interesting that almost all Argentino commenters on the Mercopress site support the present government.

I have lived more than three years in Argentina and have some 55-60 Arg. friends ranging from the poor to the very rich, and only two or three of them support 'La reina Cristina III vez'.

Take e.g. Raul #11 “Most Argentines are proud of Cristina!”
- completely out of tune and forgetting that less than 38% of the **voters** voted for her in 2011 - 30% probably spent the day vomiting and so didn't make it to the ballots.
147 Doggy Rap (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 05:09 am Report abuse
TTT switched identity immediately after he had written some gibberish about the origin of the word “colony” and someone corrected him.

It seems he's a genuine Argentine who can't face up to making a mistake and have it exposed.
148 St.John (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 05:27 am Report abuse
@ 11 Raul

“Strength Cristina! Force Argentina!! Latinoamerica Force!!”

“Recht oder unrecht, mein Vaterland!”
149 briton (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 07:38 pm Report abuse
Perhaps, as the people are controlled, only these who are picked are allowed on here,
The decent ones are turned away,
Thoughts
.
150 PGH (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 08:33 pm Report abuse
@146 St.John
It's due to an error in your statistical sampling: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

You see, most of us end up here because of the Malvinas, the same as you. Both you and us tend to be nationalists. This “sample” is not random, so it doesn't correctly reflect the population.

In my case at least, I can assure you I strongly disagree with many of her last measures. I can't say I'm a supporter right now.
151 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 25th, 2012 - 10:03 pm Report abuse
Did you agree with her when she took over private companies, just curious? Rather than taking the company, they could have taxed them into the stone and only have the taxes offset from investment in the country.....win win on both sides. They get an influx of tax revenue if they don't, and domestic investment if they do.
152 Nostrolldamus The 2nd (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 01:03 am Report abuse
@147

It is well known that the more intelligent you are and the fewer errors you commit, the more the few errors you commit will be the subject of the glee and mirth of the masses.

That does not speak badly about the late sage TTT, it speaks about the mundane intelligence of those still wallowing in the pit of mud in an endless desert of failure.
153 St.John (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 01:07 am Report abuse
@ 150 PGH

I can hardly be a nationalist regarding the Falkland Island dispute, being neither Falklander nor British.

I have researched the dispute for a couple of years because it is complicated and thus interesting.
154 Clyde15 (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 11:41 am Report abuse
#152
Tell us more oh sage one. whose light coruscating in brilliance from his nether orifice blinds us poor mortals.
Can you really walk on water or do you just pass it ?
155 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 01:09 pm Report abuse
If he can walk on water I would love for the opportunity to see how he breaths underwater.
156 Troy Tempest asshole (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 04:53 pm Report abuse
@39
the UK team keep posting comments under different screen names, so what?
157 Clyde15 (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 05:52 pm Report abuse
The ref below gives details of the technical default.
If you can understand it you are a better man than I am Gunga Din !
It makes sussies postings the model of clarity.

www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-22/all-you-need-know-about-argentinas-upcoming-technical-default
158 ChrisR (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 07:48 pm Report abuse
157 Clyde15

The one I particularly like (when setting out AG's options is the ”Defaults on all restructured bonds (Unlikely)”

Obviously JP Morgan have more confidence in TMBOA than I do.
159 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 09:26 pm Report abuse
Damn flowcharts hate the devils and working on one for a month now at work. I will wait for a KISS article.....lol
160 PGH (#) Nov 26th, 2012 - 11:37 pm Report abuse
@151 Captain Poppy

If you mean the Repsol YPF affair, I don't have enough/reliable data to say if it was justified or not. I do see the importance of energy production and how it could be used by companies to subdue a government. And I do think that under some circumstances expropriation would be the only solution. Although I'm not sure this is one of them. I would've preferred the taxes and sanctions approach, but alas, do you have the certainty that Repsol wouldn't have “blackmailed” or lobbied against the Kirchner administration in that case?

Economic groups are a real threat to sovereignty, and not just in Argentina.
161 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 27th, 2012 - 12:13 am Report abuse
Businesses are against administrations all the time here. If the country is secure in democracy, it has no impact.
162 British_Kirchnerist (#) Nov 28th, 2012 - 12:41 am Report abuse
More absurd victimisation, but I'm sure Cristina will stay strong against it; lovely picture of her as ever =)
163 Captain Poppy (#) Nov 28th, 2012 - 10:42 pm Report abuse
That's he BJ face BK (mmmmm) like when she is begging oilmen on her knees.

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