Monday, May 27th 2013 - 08:26 UTC

Program on Kirchnerite corruption exposure beats football in Argentina

An Argentine investigative journalist program on alleged corruption involving former president Nestor Kirchner and his business cronies had a greater audience than a football match of Boca Juniors, the country’s most popular team disputing the Argentine premier league.

Lanata dressed as a football player with the Argentine colours

Jorge Lanata and his program ‘Journalism for All’ has been airing for several weeks now, every Sunday a well documented program exposing a public works contractor Larazo Baez, who only ten years ago was a simple bank cashier but now monopolizes all public-works in the province of Santa Cruz, extreme south of Argentina which also happens to be the political turf of the Kirchner couple.

The government is becoming increasingly furious with the program that not only includes Mr Baez, but alleged shipping of ‘bags of money’ which from Government House in Buenos Aires were either flown to Rio Gallegos or to overseas tax havens.

As part of its reaction to the exposures, the government decided that the evening matches involving Boca Juniors and River Plate, another very popular team had to be played beginning at 22:00 when the Lanata program is aired.

In Argentina under the Kirchner governments’, transmission of football matches, even those involving the most popular teams, has become a government business and are aired free, and thus can also decide the time the games are played.

However according to primary audience ratings, Lanata competed successfully against the government and football with a clear eight rating points ahead, and when the match was over (Boca lost 0-4 to the current leader of the Premier League, Newell’s) the difference kept increasing.

“Journalism for All” reached 21 points with Lanata dressed as a football player, while the Boca match in Rosario only managed 13 points at its best.

The change of timetable ordered by the government took place even when the clubs, security forces, football commentators and others involved warned about how late the match would end, with winter coming and very serious crime challenges as in all Argentine main cities.

All along the match Lanata’s program was well ahead and when the match was over rating zoomed to 29 points.

In this program Lanata exposed how a vault in one of the houses of Baez, thought to contain millions in cash, delicate documentation and weapons was rapidly converted into a wine cellar.

The detail was that one of the craftsmen involved in the dismounting of safes and mounting of the new scenario apparently feared consequences of what he was doing and for security reasons with his cell phone took all the pictures possible. He even filmed where the contents were transported: to a farm house 70 kilometres away from Rio Gallegos.

Earlier this week Baez invited journalists and bragged about all the ‘nonsense’ about his vault, ‘it’s a wine cellar’ he insisted. ‘Look for yourselves’.

But Lanata has the over 200 mobile phone photos and also had an undercover team check when other ‘bags’ were withdrawn late at night by vans belonging to Baez, from a former residence of Nestor Kirchner in Rio Gallegos.

The main public works companies in Santa Cruz figure under the name of Baez, but given the closeness of him with the Kirchner family and particularly with the deceased president Nestor Kirchner, and given his way of making business, it is believed that the companies really belong to the former leader.

Lanata ended the program sarcastically addressing Baez and congratulating him for having made a fortune faster than Henry Ford or Bill Gates, since in ten years from simple bank employee he has admitted having the Santa Cruz four main public works companies, several farms totalling 400.000 hectares of land, properties, a fleet of black Porsche, BMW and Hyundai vans (pictures shown), plus the ‘vaults’ the exact content of which is unknown.

Lanata dedicated a brief chapter to Argentine judges and prosecutors, most of them reluctant to take the case, mainly apparently because several of the cases have been transferred to Rio Gallegos courts where all of them are known to be ‘Kirchnerite’ appointees, some of them even with direct links to Baez and his Patagonian empire.

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1 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 08:55 am Report abuse
LOL! I read that CFK and her gang of thugs had ordered the change to the kick-off times of football matches to coincide with the 'Journalism for All' programme. It must have her very rattled! The programme is damning and each week more people are outing the corrupt K's.

I think it shows just how stupid CFK believes her supporters to be. She assumed the ONLY thing they care about is football and they can be easily distracted. LOL!
2 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 09:00 am Report abuse
Also read on this site:
3 Anglotino (#) May 27th, 2013 - 09:53 am Report abuse
Panem et circenses!

Bread and circuses!
4 Be serious (#) May 27th, 2013 - 10:46 am Report abuse
Most corrupt leader since that bint in the Phillipines with all the shoes. You've got to laugh at these blind Argentine fools.
5 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 11:09 am Report abuse
To be fair, the fact that so many are watching the programme revealing the corruption, rather than football, shows they are not so blind anymore. As one of my friends in Buenos Aires pointed out, it is very difficult to get accurate information in Argentina. The government bombards them with propaganda and intimidates anyone speaking out in opposition.
6 Mendoza Canadian (#) May 27th, 2013 - 11:19 am Report abuse
If they can't stand the heat they should get out of the kitchen...
7 Anglotino (#) May 27th, 2013 - 12:15 pm Report abuse
@5 ElaineB

If we can read about this sort of thing then the average Argentine can too.
8 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 12:25 pm Report abuse
I think you don't appreciate enough the religious nature of the support the Kirchner have (as Peron did). Even intelligent people do not behave rationally with regards to politics in Argentina. It is entirely a matter of faith and devotion. They have elaborated an epic myth whereby they convinced themselves that they are fighting US imperialism and neo-conservative demons. It is a form of fundamentalist ideology based on a fake reality. In the meantime, a bunch of thugs ship the cash to Swiss bank accounts!
9 trenchtoast (#) May 27th, 2013 - 01:23 pm Report abuse
Now you mention it, so far she has put three of these “Operation Condor” flags in religious places. Seems totally bonkers to me.
10 Baxter (#) May 27th, 2013 - 01:33 pm Report abuse
We are watching with some fascination the ongoing Lanata / Kirchner saga . The change of hour for the football game seems to have failed in its objective ! Well done sensible Argentines . One only wonders why they , the authorities , do not investigate the allegations ! Or am I being naive ?
11 darragh (#) May 27th, 2013 - 01:36 pm Report abuse
@10 Baxter

KFC et al ARE the 'authorities' and even Argentine turkeys don't vote for Christmas
12 ChrisR (#) May 27th, 2013 - 01:44 pm Report abuse
You have to admire Lanata, I just hope his is not 'disappeared'.

Mind you if Dart is riled too much I am hoping he will disapper TMBOA plus a few.
13 manchesterlad (#) May 27th, 2013 - 01:48 pm Report abuse
´Futbol para Todos´ is simply a propaganda machine to try & educate the masses into the kirchner ideology. Every commercial consists of how CFK is saving Arg & ends with the slogan ´Argentina.....un pais con buena gente´& ´Presidencia de la Nacion´. It completely ignores the ´buena gente´ who are robbing, raping & murdering on a daily basis....... & that´s just the politicians!!!

It´s good to see Lanata win the ratings war & the soccer themed background was brilliant. The impersonations are really good too, the best since ´Gran Cuñado´ favourite is always Tinpotman or Timmerpunk as he is called in the program

However I´m sure most RGs watch for entertainment only knowing that nothing will come of the accusations since as stated in the article, all the judges are kirchner friendly & the one or two who weren't have already been reclused

Rudolph has hit the nail on the head @8
14 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 02:06 pm Report abuse
Unfortunately the grip the peronists have established on the justice system makes it very unlikely that any judicial inquiry will be carried out with integrity and impartiality. The Supreme Court is not all rotten however, but well backed-up allegations show that the President of the Court has a shady past... Also read:
15 Anbar (#) May 27th, 2013 - 02:20 pm Report abuse
“”“”As part of its reaction to the exposures, the government decided that the evening matches involving Boca Juniors and River Plate, another very popular team had to be played beginning at 22:00 when the Lanata program is aired.
In Argentina under the Kirchner governments’, transmission of football matches, even those involving the most popular teams, has become a government business and are aired free, and thus can also decide the time the games are played.“”“”


is that true? The government dictates the time foottie matches are played?
16 MagnusMaster (#) May 27th, 2013 - 02:24 pm Report abuse
Unfortunately this will only lead to the government taking the Clarin group, which they are able to do since they have shares and a law passed last year allows the state to control any corporation in which they have any shares in.

@7 it wasn´t that easy to find out about corruption before. The K hid everything and all the media was censored, even Clarin, until 2008 when Clarin began critisizing the government. Only obscure media could show the full picture, so only a handful of educated people knew what was going on.
Of course, this doesn´t mean the people weren´t blind. The people don´t think when they vote. If the economy is doing well, they reelect the government. If the economy is really bad, they choose someone else. There was something Domingo Cavallo said about this... but sadly I can´t remember it.
17 Tobers (#) May 27th, 2013 - 02:52 pm Report abuse

---If the economy is doing well, they reelect the government. If the economy is really bad, they choose someone else---

Unfortunately its applicable in most/all countries.

The only people that support the crooks now are their partners in crime, the ideological/opportunistic in the campora hitler youth and those that are easily bribed - the poor. Take away the campora hitler youth and 'free' entertainment yesterday and i think very few average joes and joannas would have turned up.

Public funds are running out and so the crooks are having to resort to more desperate measures.Its pathetic that the 'government' moves the kick off of a football match to score political points... and then loses
18 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 02:55 pm Report abuse
I don't entirely agree MagnusMaster. The corruption claims were out there and backed up by evidence. Politicians like Pino Solanas and Elisa Carrio were providing the evidence and had started court claims. The problem is that Clarin, together with the Establishment press, were doing business with the Kirchners. Now the operation is to remove the Kirchner mafia and pave the way for the Duhalde faction of the Peronist Party to come back, so that impunity continues and they can carry on doing business. Wait and see.
19 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
It is called 'happathy'. When everyone thought life was getting better - and lets face it, it was not hard to appear to be doing well after 2001 - they were happy to let the government share the money in a 'one for you, three for us' way.

Fear and hope are the two strongest selling emotions. Nestor gave people hope. After 2001 that is what people needed to hear and there was only one way to go and that was up. But Nestor's economic policies were flawed in the long-term. Great in the short-term, but unsustainable. What we shall never know is if he would have had the intellect to change course if he had lived.

The biggest mistake he ever made was giving the bi-polar, harpie any power. Nestor probably thought he could control her long enough to take the reins again but fate intervened. As soon as he was out of the picture she morphed into an egomaniac with a persecution complex, sacked anyone with any brains, made her son, Not-S0-Fat Max her chief advisor, and made his La Campora her army of thugs. La Campora was never as significant under Nestor. I use to joke that if you gave a bunch of hormone-filled, unreliable, feckless, reckless, teenagers a country to run, they would run it like Argentina. CFK did that for real.

@16 It is true. Clarin rubbed along pretty much OK with Nestor but fell out with the K's when CFK went after the farmers. The negative press was the end of the time when Nestor used to enjoy cosy dinners with the editor.

People the do not have as much access to the information we do. They are bombarded with false information, pro-government propaganda and threatened if they speak out. But things are changing.
20 Pirate Love (#) May 27th, 2013 - 03:10 pm Report abuse
Lolarama! Crooks one and all, their time will be soon at hand,
im guessing the sale of rope is at a premium in B.A in preparation for the revolution against 10 more years of rampant kirchner dictatorship, poverty and corruption.

Jorge Lanata, brave man indeed!
lets just hope he and his family stay safe from the hands of the argentine Mafia
mis-government and the kirchner Nazi youth.
21 ChrisR (#) May 27th, 2013 - 03:15 pm Report abuse
16 MagnusMaster
Was it this one?

“Each peso [or dollar] is a contract between the government and the peso holder. That contract guarantees that each peso -- as a unit of value that the holder has worked hard to get -- will be worth as much tomorrow as today. If the government breaks the contract, it's breaking the law. The only role of government in the economy should be to guarantee the integrity of market transactions.”

Good thought, WRONG country.
22 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 03:53 pm Report abuse
@19 - ElaineB

I honestly do not think it is a question of access to information. It is more a matter of faith against reason. I could never have had any hope, no matter how desperate my situation, in someone like Nestor Kirchner, or Carlos Menem, or Duhalde. Only blind irrational belief (other than cash) and a tendency to seek messianic leaders can lead someone to vote for them.
23 Simon68 (#) May 27th, 2013 - 04:30 pm Report abuse
22 rudolpharr (#)
May 27th, 2013 - 03:53 pm

You are saying that the only way to end the peronist plague is to stage a sort of reformation. To do that we must find a politician who is honest, charismatic enough to convince the poor that he/she will lift them out of poverty and into a new world (without explaining that they will have to WORK), and has a political programme that will convince the middle class. Do we have a politician like that?
24 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 04:39 pm Report abuse
@22 I see your point. I asked some friends in Argentina why they voted for such a blatantly corrupt government and they responded that 'all politicians are corrupt'. And corruption is endemic, a part of life, something so many indulge in from skipping train fares, to bribing police, to stealing the country's reserves. So, I am surmising, if the general public are doing OK in spite of the government stealing on a grand scale, they are not inclined to complain about it. And if they did, nothing would change. SSDG. (Same shit different government).

To really tackle the problem would need a change in social attitude. It is not OK to cheat and steal and bribe through life and every time you do it it is a crime against all Argentines. They also need to understand that the social contract requires contribution as well as extraction.

What will happen is the people will turn against CFK and it is likely to get bloody when her army of thugs put up a flight. Then the next government will be voted in on the promise of hope for the future whilst continuing in the same manner. SSDG.
25 Chicureo (#) May 27th, 2013 - 04:49 pm Report abuse
Simon, certainly Argentina has good honest capable people to lead, but they'll never get elected by the majority. Populist well backed Peronists that are willing to “pay back” the initial political support are the ones that have a chance to win an election. Saying that, just about ANY Peronist candidate would be better than the mad bitch president you currently have.
26 Stevie (#) May 27th, 2013 - 04:50 pm Report abuse
The majority of the viewers are Brit “Falkalnders”...
27 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 04:59 pm Report abuse
@24 I absolutely agree Elaine. The problem is not corrupt politicians against a decent society. It is a society which is morally bankrupt which engenders and tolerates politicians who cheat. I have observed Argentina's moral backbone bending progressively in the last 30 years (before then I have no memory, but it was bad too). Part of the problem is that people want to believe that it is possible to move from Third World to being like Canada or Sweden overnight. So, any politician who promises a shortcut to paradise with no work and effort is revered instantly. And they know it! The result is that paradise slides away more and more rapidly.

As you say, everyone cheats in some way through small daily misdemeanours and petty crimes, from dodging train fares or not wearing a seatbelt, to massive scale fraud, and then they expect decent people to rule. It is also true that the decent people don't speak up. They don't want to fall out with their friends or relatives. I think that is changing slowly though.
28 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 05:28 pm Report abuse
@27 I know many good Argentines that despair of the behaviour of others. But, you are right, generally it is almost accepted that most people will try to gain something every day by dissolute means. It is not dissimilar to the Italian way where they have a saying about a day not being complete without cheating someone. (Though I think we are both talking in general terms - not everyone does it).

It must irk some Argentines that take the time to look over the Andes and see a country that DID bite the bullet, work hard and eventually come out the other side with a stable economy.

Jorge Lanata is doing the country a favour by standing up to the K's intimidation. The attempt by the government to distract the masses with football backfired and made them look stupid.
29 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 05:37 pm Report abuse
@28 Yes, I think Lanata is a real hero. He is risking his health and his family's safety for this, and he has to put up with the idiotic comments of many other journalists who ask for more evidence.

Having said, more worrying is the possible succession to this mess. I fear it will be more peronism, under a different guise. Duhalde is coming back to the scene now accusing Cristina of being a corrupt liar and claiming to be the saviour of the Nation and the source of all decency. It is like the Joker accusing Catwoman...
30 Ayayay (#) May 27th, 2013 - 06:17 pm Report abuse
Lol, football uniform :P
31 Iron Man (#) May 27th, 2013 - 06:27 pm Report abuse
@26 yes I came here initially because of the nonsense CFK and her government were talking about the Falklands - but I stay because I can't believe what a train wreck of an administration this is. Compulsive viewing to see what happens next. Apologies to any decent Argentinians out there.
32 rudolpharr (#) May 27th, 2013 - 06:59 pm Report abuse
@23 Simon68

I think it is precisely the opposite. You don't need any more charismatic politicians. You need to get involved and stop expecting someone else to come and save you. If someone around you votes for them, make them understand that they are voting for a party that is stealing your money and they should be ashamed of it; they are responsible for your loss. You can only convince people around you, not the abstract voter you've never met.

Blaming the poor for the peronist plague is absurd. The people that decide an election are in the middle class, and they are the perpetrators of the looting of Argentina. Look at all the intellectuals who are supporting the Kirchner!
33 Tobers (#) May 27th, 2013 - 08:35 pm Report abuse

Well said!
34 Chicureo (#) May 27th, 2013 - 09:14 pm Report abuse
Perhaps well said, but not realistic. The same problem you see in Italy. In the north they are far more industrious and hard working. Unfortunately, the majority of Argentines have southern Italian roots. Elaine's observation about ingrained corruption is correct.
#26 Stevie/Guzz
21 points in television ratings from an audience in the Falklands you say...
...well that means there is a hell of a lot more colonists and bloodthirsty soldiers in the islands than we thought. What do they receive their signal with? Probably some high powered radar that can listen in on your conversations as well....
35 Ena_Sharples (#) May 27th, 2013 - 09:49 pm Report abuse
@34 - Chicureo, then what? Hang yourself or join the rogues and take your money to Belize? There needs to be a way forward in your argument otherwise this is just purposeless ranting.
36 Marcos Alejandro (#) May 27th, 2013 - 10:06 pm Report abuse
LOL MercoP and Lagrasa, not even Boca fans(including myself) wants to see their youngsters play the Argentine league at this time. They are having one of the worst seasons in memory and besides that they are going for the South American tournament far more important.
37 ElaineB (#) May 27th, 2013 - 10:14 pm Report abuse
So why did the government force the change of kick-off?

And are there only two channels? Your argument does not answer why so many watched 'Journalism for All' but it does highlight the government wasting so much money on something people do not want to watch.
38 Anglotino (#) May 27th, 2013 - 10:52 pm Report abuse
@36 Marcos

So you weren't interested in the footy.

You therefore had the chance to watch Journalism for All

And what do you think?
39 Stevie (#) May 27th, 2013 - 11:19 pm Report abuse
Funny twist from a Uruguayan perspective, after Lanata accused Uruguay of being one of the alleged tax havens.

“Read El Pais, but don't believe what it says”
“You a basing your programs on affirmations of that newspaper, who steps on shaky ground, a fact that makes your programs fall to the ground.”

Maybe he is doing the same with Clarín, or his other Argentine sources, who knows ;)
40 Chicureo (#) May 28th, 2013 - 12:41 am Report abuse
Stevie/ Guzz
You are not from Uruguay!
#35 Ena
I would love to see my Andean brothers embrace good governance, but we know that's not going to happen. What Argentina is going to get at best is another ladrón simpático like Carlos Menem.
41 ManRod (#) May 28th, 2013 - 02:04 am Report abuse
closing cycles and reset...and Argentina losing more and more ground.
Next year I see wave of economic refugee of Argentines fleeing towards Peru. Something unthinkable some years ago...
42 madbiker (#) May 28th, 2013 - 02:19 am Report abuse
Just want to add something regarding the information the people of Argentina receive. First off been living in Argentina since 2001. Just moved back to Canada in April with my wife and kids to follow in September. Information inside the country is sparse at best. Canal trece being the only television channel reporting anything that is against the government(Lanata) Clarin being the only newspaper. Everything else is either pro government or leaning in that direction. As for reading pages like this,,,,,,,,,,,,First off,,,,,Spanish speaking country,,,remember....secondly .......internet which not everyone has....When you have 95% of the information telling you how wrong Lanata and Clarin are....It is very difficult for the mis informed to think otherwise. Cristina is a wack job bitch,,along with all her party. Corrupt as hell. But that doesn't mean the majority of argentines are like that. Try making change when you have corrupt bastards messing with the vote. Maduro ring any bells.... Without an effective opposition nothing will ever change, the political system has no opposition to speak of. Now if the opposition parties were to band to together under one leader there could be a chance of kicking the bitch and her cronies out of power, but that's wishful thinking....Unfortunately the party leaders all believe their way is the best direction with absolutely no conformity. End result......Brief fart in the crowd which subsides and is forgotton....
43 rudolpharr (#) May 28th, 2013 - 07:07 am Report abuse
@40 Argentina is going to get someone put by Duhalde. It might be Massa or Scioli, two opportunistic peronists. We will be here in ten years having this same argument with similar corruption scandals. That is my only certainty.
44 Faz (#) May 28th, 2013 - 12:58 pm Report abuse
This was reported in the British paper The Times. It really good to hear from people who have recently been to Argentina and obviously know what exactly is going on. There is a lack of comment from the usual suspect trolls who appear to have been stunned into silence, or, perhaps instructed to be silent by Timmerpunk.
It seems that whatever people get into power that the countrys problems are not going to get sorted quickly. A bit like Britain one to vote for... Only on a vastly different scale. Hoping to visit Chile next year to see what a civilised SA nation looks like.
45 Simon68 (#) May 28th, 2013 - 03:32 pm Report abuse
32 rudolpharr (#)
May 27th, 2013 - 06:59 pm

Rudolph, I have spent the better part of the last 50 years trying to convince my friends and neighbours to vote sensibly, and have only seen wall to wall MPN governments (which is part of the peronist plague) at a local level and with few and mostly unfortunate exceptions peronist governments on a national level.

All of them have been corrupt and totally useless from a citizen's point of view, and this latest horror is without doubt the worst of the lot.

Never in my nearly 80 years have I seen such levels of corruption, not even during Menem's decade or the last dictatorship, which were both pretty much the champions up to 2003.

When I say that we need a charismatic contender, it is because the peronists will always put up a demagogue and the oppposition will need someone to counteract that fact. Also the candidate must be able to unite all the disparate opposition groups (not parties) and try to get them to sing from the same song sheet.

I think that this is a fairly up-hill prospect!!!!!!!
46 ElaineB (#) May 28th, 2013 - 05:17 pm Report abuse
@44 I am sure you will love Chile, I am back there again next month.

@45 But you can't give up. There must have been many people who marched behind Martin Luther King who didn't see an immediate change but they didn't give up. It is a long battle but it can be won.
47 Simon68 (#) May 28th, 2013 - 05:44 pm Report abuse
46 ElaineB (#)
May 28th, 2013 - 05:17 pm

Elaine, I felt the same way even 5 years ago, but now I'm beginning to think of throwing in the towel. To be a person of some small intelligence governed by fascism for most of my life is liable to bring out pessimism in a saint, and a saint I am not!!!!!
48 ElaineB (#) May 28th, 2013 - 05:58 pm Report abuse
@47 I understand. I have seen even pro-K voters reduced to despair over the last few years. Obviously, they wouldn't vote for CFK now.
49 Chicureo (#) May 28th, 2013 - 06:34 pm Report abuse
“Just imagine, a cow on the balcony of the nation, what an awful thing, what a shitty country...” Gabriel García Márquez, The Autumn of the Patriarch

Sort of sums up the situation well, but when you reach bottom, there's only going back up again. Argentina is a remarakable country with a well educated majority.
They can returnto greatness IF they're willing to sacrifice. Chile has still a long ways to go, but we're progressing.
50 rudolpharr (#) May 28th, 2013 - 09:46 pm Report abuse
45 Simon68 (#), 46 ElaineB (#)

I can see exactly where you are coming from Simon. I agree with your diagnosis but charismatic leaders will only contribute to people feeling they do not need to get involved, that a caudillo will come and rescue them. Ideally what you need is a government formed by a coalition without any prominent figure.

I speak to many relatives and friends in Argentina and they all whinge but nobody gets involved in anything related to public life. When you suggest that they should run for local office or help in a political party, they frown and say “Oh no, I have to cancel the gym!”.

As Elaine suggests, it takes persistent small steps and risk taking to achieve any change. Martin Luther King sacrificed his life for civil liberties, and so did many in his group. The friends you talk about would not cancel an “asado” or a football match for anything. Two demonstrations per year like on 8N and 18A will not achieve much. You need to install the concept of campaigning, with clear and repetitive slogans which get into people's head; like PERONISM IS FASCISM. DUHALDE IS THE JOKER. CORRUPT JUDGES GO TO PRISON. “ESTA VIEJA ES PEOR QUE EL TUERTO”. ;-)

If people keep expecting a leader to come and change things, the next president you will get is some buffoon installed by Duhalde to keep stealing for another ten years and ensuring the corruption machinery does not end.
51 argentine (#) May 29th, 2013 - 12:41 am Report abuse
I assume most of the comments posted here are from non-Argentine citizens (born and raised). I'm amazed that people who don't live here can post comments about what's going on in Argentina without the proper information. Apparently they think we're dumb. First of all, the corrupt system of government started with Juan Peron 50 years ago. Later on Menem replicated it, and now the K's have taken it to the next level. It's very hard to beat them because they have a huge criminal organization. All the members of the K administration (starting with the president CFK, the vice-president Amado Boudou, the cabinet of ministers, governors, mayors, etc.) break the law and don't respect the Constitution; they're cheaters and liars and thieves. On the other hand, there are some journalists (like Jorge Lanata) some anti-K congressmen and congresswomen, some District Attorneys, some judges and many citizens who are brave enough to confront them, risking their lives that are under threat. They are working relentlessly to stop the K abuse of power. So please reconsider your remarks before posting them. Thanks!
52 Anglotino (#) May 29th, 2013 - 03:21 am Report abuse
@51 Argentine

Ummm..... 99% of the non-Argentina posters on here know that!

It's a pity that except for one or two Argentineans on here, the rest are too indoctrinated to see the truth.
53 argentine (#) May 29th, 2013 - 09:30 am Report abuse
50 rudolpharr (#) You wrote: “I speak to many relatives and friends in Argentina and they all whinge but nobody gets involved in anything related to public life. When you suggest that they should run for local office or help in a political party, they frown and say 'Oh no, I have to cancel the gym!'.” Tell your relatives and friends to read about Argentine history and please try to avoid posting trivial and inaccurate comments about Argentina's difficult situation coping with 'Korruption'. We are striving to deal with our own domestic falsehood. Tell your friends and relatives to read these 2 articles while they're at the gym: Thanks.
54 rudolpharr (#) May 29th, 2013 - 12:37 pm Report abuse
53 argentine (#)

1. Who is WE? You say “we are striving”. Who do you represent? Who are you speaking for?

2. Carrió is great, I follow everything she says, writes, posts. She is by far the most intelligent politician around and her insights into the situation are very sharp. Hence, she’s got 1.8% of the vote and all the media made fun of her for years.

3. Sebreli is by far the best intellectual in Argentina. He is the first one to state that the problem is in society. That Argentinian society is sick.

4. You are having an outbreak of what Borges called “our poor nationalism”. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

5. People you send articles to like the one you have just posted are not interested in reading them. They tell you that Carrió is too polarised and paid by Clarín. Sebreli is read by people like you and I who do not need to be convinced.

6. Look at the Opinion Polls. Massa and Scioli are the leading figures. So, more Peronism and more mafia to come.

And please tell me which comment that I have made is trivial and inaccurate. Be precise and rational. Nobody is attacking you.
55 ChrisR (#) May 29th, 2013 - 12:53 pm Report abuse
51 argentine
67.4% of the ELECTORATE (not only those who actually voted) did NOT vote for TMBOA.

So there is plenty of scope to chuck the thieves out.

I live in Uruguay (expat Brit) and my next door neighbour is an Argentine, he comes over for the season. He and all his family (his mother is 91 in October) are lovely people and I know them well enough to ask why Argentina is so badly screwed up. They all laughed and said ‘we always ask ourselves that question’ and we can only say that a lot of people do not vote because they know the result will be the same whatever happens.

I do not clump all Argentines the same, the likes of Simon68 and others are clearly held as hostages to fortune BUT I detest the argies, the Malvanistas, La Camping-it-up and the so called ‘veterans of the war’ (which of course was NOTHING to do with the people, they just clamoured in the millions cheering the Junta) who do nothing but cause trouble for the Falklanders (there are no Malvinas).

So, if you are an Argentine, you have my sympathy, if you are in one of the other groups then you do not.
56 Tobers (#) May 29th, 2013 - 05:52 pm Report abuse

Dont forget there is the concept of 'critical mass' . Quite often revolutions seem to come from nowhere - a big enough spark and the fire sest started and things happen. Although it s hard for those who have lived 70 80 s years in an unstable society - theres always hope. Things can change quickly in Argentina...
57 rudolpharr (#) May 29th, 2013 - 06:15 pm Report abuse
56 Tobers (#)

I am very wary about revolutions. I prefer slow but consistent changes built on consensus. Argentina had many upheavals and usually what followed was worse than what had preceded. In fact, the same faces reappeared with new clothes and it all turned out to be a smoke screen.

Critical mass fine but to go where? My prediction is that the current upheaval will lead to the return of the more conservative faction of the Peronists (led by Duhalde). This happened in 2001-2002 after the crisis.

If, however, the economy sparks up again in 2014-2015, there is a chance that a Kirchnerite will continue. It happened in 2009 (everyone hated Cristina) and then in 2011 she obtained 54%.

58 ChrisR (#) May 29th, 2013 - 09:11 pm Report abuse
57 rudolpharr

No she didn't get 54%. She only got 54% OF THOSE WHO VOTED which was only 32.6% of the ELECTORATE.

59 rudolpharr (#) May 29th, 2013 - 09:30 pm Report abuse
58 ChrisR (#)

Are those figure from Pat as well? The turnout was 81.41%. In Argentina voting is compulsory so the turnout is always extremely high. The electorate in Argentina is around 28 Million. 23 Million voted. CFK got 12 Million votes. Nobody disputes that in Argentina.
60 argentine (#) May 29th, 2013 - 10:12 pm Report abuse
57 rudolpharr (#) You posted earlier: “Argentina is going to get someone put by Duhalde. It might be Massa or Scioli, two opportunistic peronists. We will be here in ten years having this same argument with similar corruption scandals. That is my only certainty.” That's what I consider a trivial and inaccurate comment. And that's when I started to wonder whether you actually live in Argentina. Cause I live here and there are no indications (so far) that either Massa or Scioli have any chance to become President. [By the way, Duhalde is dead, politically speaking.] I have no certainties about the actual future candidates. All I know is that first we have to vote this year in August and October (when the K's will probably lose their majority in Congress), and then we have to wait 2 more years until the presidential elections of 2015. The political chessboard is changing and hopefully by then we will have a decent candidate as an option. “The times they are a changing”, as Bob Dylan used to sing. If there is a change in the Argentine consciousness, it will be thanks to the brave men and women like the District Attorney Marijuan and Lilita Carrió and Jorge Lanata (among others) and the millions of citizens who are sick and tired of the “nac&pop” fraud.
61 rudolpharr (#) May 29th, 2013 - 10:42 pm Report abuse
60 argentine (#) Well, I really hope you are right but I have many many doubts. I think the system is bankrupt and a big moral overhaul is needed. People were also very fed up in 2001, remember? And Menem nearly got in again in 2003.

I think you are mistaken if you think Duhalde is dead politically. He has been working behind the scenes very actively. Moyano's change of tune is due to Duhalde.

Duhalde came back with a stupid article on La Nacion this week, at the perfect time... Go and read the comments to the article and you will find many people supporting his return.

Who do you think is going to control Congress after October if not the Peronist answering to Duhalde and De la Sota? Carriò will hopefully get in but she is isolated, even from her party.

CFK and the K mafia will not go quietly; there is too much money at stake and they need to guarantee their impunity. She will “pull the table cloth”, as Carriò says.

My comments were directed to incite people to get active, participate, make a commitment, instead of waiting for a saviour, as someone was claiming here. That is how the discussion thread started.

If I assess the situation today and people's state of mind (which could change quickly) all I see is a war between factions of the Peronist party and I would bet for the return of a Peronist president descending from Duhalde or some sort of deal between the PRO and Duhalde + Lavagna. Again, I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!

In my direct experience, I have to admit that most people I speak to cannot be bothered to do anything other than complain. It doesn't work with marching on streets twice a year.
62 argentine (#) May 30th, 2013 - 12:23 am Report abuse
61 rudolpharr (#) OK, let's settle the argument here. I totally agree with the last paragraph of your post. And I sincerely hope you're wrong about the pact between the PRO + Duhalde + Lavagna.
63 British_Kirchnerist (#) Jun 05th, 2013 - 08:35 am Report abuse
#13 Yes, its much better here, where you have to pay Rupert Murdoch to see most football matches!

Lanata is absurd, I can't blame the people for being interested in his sensationalist comedy show, but that doesn't make it all true...
64 argentine (#) Jun 05th, 2013 - 09:20 am Report abuse
63 British_Kirchnerist (#) How do you know that what Lanata investigated isn't true? As far as I know, they're all being investigated by Judges and District Attorneys with open cases in Court. Do you have access to confidential information? British_Kirchnerite (that's the word they use here) you're just an infiltrated K.K... C'mon, you can go elsewhere to debate with your corrupt “compañeros”. Are they paying you to comment here? How much?
65 British_Kirchnerist (#) Jun 05th, 2013 - 10:30 pm Report abuse
#64 Maybe if I was a British Fiji-ite, I'd be getting paid like Mr Mercer! But I do this for free, because I believe in the socialist cause that Latin America represents in this era =)

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