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Montevideo, August 15th 2018 - 14:57 UTC

Mysterious killing of Petrobras corruption investigation whistleblower

Monday, February 12th 2018 - 05:46 UTC
Full article 47 comments

A Brazilian federal judge has requested the Federal Prosecution Office a report on the killing of Jose Roberto Soares Vieira, who helped the Petrobras corruption probe team to track illegal payments in the 47th chapter of the investigation and which involved the former manager of Transpetro, Jose Antonio de Jesus. Read full article

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  • Jack Bauer

    Wouldn't be the first time the PT has resorted to killing those who dare to blow the whistle on them.

    Feb 12th, 2018 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    The death doesn't seem particularly mysterious. But who has been killed previously for blowing the whistle on the PT?

    RE your comment on Lula's speaking engagements, evidently some were real if journalists covered them. It does seem like a good way to give bribes, and not only in Brazil, except that it is ex-leaders giving the talks. How much influence do any of them still have at that point?

    “All presidents have surrounded themselves with ministers of dubious character, some more than others…the only reason many are still around and keep popping up in all governments, is because the STF takes over 10 years to take a decision, and by then their crimes prescribe…”

    Not the only reason. The various presidents have chosen to keep them around as ministers, although perhaps they wouldn't have remained president if they hadn't kept (bought) these people's support. Dilma didn't.

    Feb 12th, 2018 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    Wouldn't be the first time you’ve claimed malfeasance against the PT without proof. Here’s a chance to refute that by bearing your burden and providing proof there of.

    Feb 13th, 2018 - 11:22 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Right, not really; neither does the assassination of the mayor of Santo André (state of SP), Celso Daniel, in January 2002. He was from the PT and according to preliminary investigations (which were suddenly dropped without explanation when they started to uncover a real can of worms), he was threatening to blow the lid off a corruption scheme related to the public transport (bus) concessions in the town. The timing was also suspicious, given that the PT had just launched Lula as their candidate in the Oct 2002 elections ; sure wouldn't have looked too good for him.
    Celso Daniel's brother confirmed the mayor had been receiving death threats, which were later extended to him and his immediate family, to the point of having to take them and abandon the country...he decided to return about 5 years ago.
    At the time, Palocci, who was later Lula's finance minister, became a person of interest, but as the investigation was never ended, we'll probably never know if and to what extent he might have been involved. With Lula winning the election a few months later, the case was filed.
    On the good side, the 'lavajato' task force recently announced they would be reopening the case, as some trails have led back to the assassination.
    Despite Lula leaving the presidency end 2010, it's a well known fact that Dilma was his puppet. The PT would never do anything without consulting Lula first, so it's pretty obvious he had a lot of influence (as far as the PT went) in Congress. As I said, Lula dealt the cards within the PT, naming and kicking out Dilma's ministers. While Dilma was no model for honesty or competence, there is no proof she actually put her hand in the til. The fact that her daughter became a successful businesswoman after she was elected (as did several other sons of high-ranking 'petistas') seems to be a lesser crime, not worthwhile investigating while there are more important issues to worry about..

    Feb 13th, 2018 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I just looked Celso Daniel up on Wikipedia. It says seven witnesses have been found dead since the start of the investigation! It's like something off the television. They even caught the gang who did it, but their motives aren't clear. I wonder if the investigation into Soares Vieira's death will go any better.

    “The PT would never do anything without consulting Lula first”

    I suppose so. It doesn't seem to happen in Britain; once leaders retire (or more often are forced out), they don't seem to have much influence. And it appears to be the same in the US, I don't know why it's different in Brazil and other Latam countries.

    Feb 13th, 2018 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    It's not uncommon, depending in which jurisdiction the crime occurs, for politicians to have the local police on their payroll, so it's no surprise certain crimes are never solved, or simply filed away as ‘accidents’.

    The difference with Lula, regarding his popularity among the lower class and some intellectuals, artists and champagne socialists, is that he left the presidency with a high approval rating, despite the “mensalão” scandal (which exploded near the end of his 2nd term, but well-covered up, and with Lula saying his favorite phrase , “I don’t know anything”….from then on he became known as the ‘teflon’ president).

    One would expect that the fact Lula is now a very rich (if not wealthy) person, would make most people raise their eyebrows, but his charisma blinds the lower classes.
    Most Brazilians have notoriously short memories, and when all they choose to remember are the 'good' times and the handouts – Ah, forget the crisis when they all got screwed - that's what you get.
    But getting back to Lula, here’s a free translation of a recent editorial from the “O Estado de São Paulo” : “Now that his weak arguments have failed, he’s resorting to political farce, trying to give the impression he’s more powerful than the country’s institutions. The fear that he might become a martyr is not really the consequence of deep concern for national interest or for public order, but of the PT’s customary manipulation of the truth, in a disgusting attempt to fool the people, once again. Incapable of showing the innocence of their supreme leader, after his conviction by the TRF-4, the PT’s only option is to try to convince the people’ that the institutions are ‘fragile’, and therefore should not dare to challenge Lula, ‘the myth’ “

    It's different here because most aren't too well-educated, and the knack of trying to get something for nothing, is common. They prioritize carnival, soccer, 'samba', and 'cachaça', way over being ripped off by politicians.

    Feb 14th, 2018 - 03:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “Now that his weak arguments have failed, he’s resorting to political farce,..”
    Which may satisfy the most partisan of this delightful back-water. But, in the none-biased wider world they hold an entirely different view.
    “The final submission in the appeal to the United Nations Human Rights Committee (UNHRC) was lodged … The submission provided evidence of the unfairness of the appeal hearing that confirmed Lula’s conviction. It pointed out that the Chief Judge of the said court, Appellate Judge Carlos Eduardo Thompson Flores Lenz, had shown himself to be utterly biased by approving of Judge Moro’s decision as “impeccable” in advance of the hearing, besides supporting his Chief of Staff, Daniela Kreling Lau, who posted on Facebook demands that Lula be imprisoned. The submission also questions the fact that the federal prosecutor was seated next to the judges and appeared to be a member of the appeal court and that the judges had written and typed their judgments before hearing the oral arguments of the defence. For these, and other reasons the petition to the United Nations Human Rights Committee contends that the hearing that convicted Lula was biased. … Citing precedents from previous decisions of the UNHRC and from other international courts, the petition maintains that under international law, TRF-4 and Judge Moro, by virtue of their pronounced lack of impartiality and by the fact that they already been found to have committed a number of unlawful acts against Lula, are irredeemably biased and therefore must not be permitted to order his arrest or continue with the trial.”

    Feb 14th, 2018 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    “It's not uncommon... for politicians to have the local police on their payroll”

    Nice. It's not surprising they felt confident about stealing if they can literally get away with murder.

    I suppose those people who think it's clever to get something for nothing don't really raise an eyebrow at Lula getting rich.

    I looked up “O Estado de São Paulo” and Wikipedia says it's a right-wing paper, so I'm not surprised their editorial attacks him.

    It does seem odd to me that Brazilians aren't more angry at the politicians who stole from them, or at the military dictatorship before that. Are they so sure that nothing will ever change that they'd rather distract themselves with carnival etc? Or do they just not care?

    Feb 14th, 2018 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “suppose those people who think it's clever ....don't really raise an eyebrow at Lula getting rich.” While the “jeitinho” (get something for nothing”) is a national pastime, it's usually only the rich who stand to gain anything substantial from it, so of course they wouldn’t mind Lula getting a share, as long as they did too, and usually far bigger.
    The OESP isn't right-wing. Just need to look up its history; founded in 1875, on Republican ideals, it has always positioned itself against dictatorial governments, independent of political leaning.
    In 1932, the owners of the “Grupo Estado” (the Mesquita family) lead the Constitutionalist Revolution (State of SP rose up against G.Vargas, in order to try to topple his government and call a Constituent Assembly), but as SP was defeated by the Federal forces, the OESP owners were exiled by GV, who later named a friend of the Mesquita family, as interventor. The OESP has always defended political conservatism and economic liberalism, and in the last decades has adopted a more liberal position, socially and politically. Recently, Joaquim Barbosa (ex-STF), classified Brazil’s 3 main papers (OESP, Folha de SP, O Globo) as right leaning…obviously he’s entitled to his opinion, but it seems a bit ‘off’, given that the “Folha” is leftist and defends Lula, tooth and nail. Essentially, the OESP defends classic democracy, and has and does attack any politician who strays from that principle.
    Lula has said on more than one occasion, while he was in office, and very recently, that if elected he will impose restrictions on the free-press. By his past actions, it’s easy to guess what...
    “…odd to me that Brazilians aren't more angry…”….it’s odd, but it’s the sad truth, the result of a largely uneducated population. I've said this before a million times, the people 'as a whole', are stupid...if they weren't, why insist on shooting themselves in the foot ?
    Last of all, the military, compared to the civilians, were saints.

    Feb 15th, 2018 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I dunno, everyone has their own opinion about what is right and left. Wikipedia claims that Folha de SP was criticised for attacking Dilma before her election, and publishing 'her' police file, which turned out to be totally unverified, so they weren't always in favour of the PT. Do you ever read the UK papers? If you told me what you think of them it would give me a better idea. Countries have different standards; centre left in the US is centre right in Europe, for example. Most of the US republicans would be way far right in the UK and their overt religion very out of place. Latin America seems in some ways further left but in others very right-wing, so it's harder to classify.

    Anyway, political conservatism and economic liberalism sounds like a traditional right-wing position.

    What did Lula actually say about the press? I take it he didn't do anything about it while he was president?

    “if they weren't, why insist on shooting themselves in the foot ?”

    I reckon lots of people have been asking themselves that in Britain and the US recently. Are voters here and there stupid too? I don't know.

    “Last of all, the military, compared to the civilians, were saints.”

    The civilians have not tortured and exiled 100s or 1000s of people, so presumably you are talking about corruption. But I think you should bear in mind that the military did censor the press and had much more power to stop people ever finding out if they were stealing. They may seem better, but were they really?

    Feb 15th, 2018 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    If the 'Folha' was criticized (PT, presume) for attacking Dilma it’s no surprise...certain events are so notorious that denying their existence / downplaying their effects, can backfire, so they’re almost obliged to publish them, no matter who it hurts. Editorials usually define a paper’s political leaning, which permits readers to identify with them. If an editorial defends 'x', and a day later attacks him, without a new fact, where’s their credibility? Dilma's police (terrorist) record was public knowledge before the ‘Folha’ published it - it was all over the internet asa Lula backed her, in 2009. As to the credibility of such files, not only has Dilma never contested them, but used them to promote herself as a ‘freedom-fighter’.

    Don't read UK papers...read the OESP & Folha, watch news on the large TV networks and the internet. To give you a better idea on my thoughts of what is left or right, very simply consider this : the left: favors a nationalized economy, State intervention in almost every step of life, claims to promote social justice (while using it to encroach on people’s individual rights and make them dependent on the State), a controlled press, or, basically what we are seeing in VZ…the right :favors a free-market, personal freedom and free-speech. Today, these basic concepts are blurry in LatAm, forming a messy combination, depending on the political maturity of its governments.
    While in office, when the press published something negative about him/ the PT, Lula would threaten them/try to impose restrictions, by creating a national censorship bureau…i.e., basically the PT. His recent declarations show he hasn’t changed his mind.
    Civilians may not have tortured/exiled 100s, but are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of 1000s, indirectly, through their corruption, due to lack of public safety /decent health svcs…which is more significant ?
    The military worked for me...other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    Feb 16th, 2018 - 04:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “The left: favors a nationalized economy, State intervention in almost every step of life,”
    I would agree in general, but no such thing occurred on Lula’s watch as preferential tax positions were preserved. As an example my wife only pays 6% income tax on her company’s earnings. Which is extremely generous when you compare to the rest of the developed world.
    “Civilians may not have tortured/exiled 100s, but are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of 1000s, indirectly, through their corruption” Rubbish the corrupters are inevitably those with material assets to offer enticements. As per usual you proffer your peculiar political bias as fact without any support. “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
    “The military worked for me...other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.”
    “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” Harlan Ellison

    Feb 16th, 2018 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Well, it's obvious which you support, but I already knew that.

    If you were cynical, you could claim the right wants corporations to screw you over, and the left wants the government to do it. But really, I'd say the left want to improve society and think that it's the government's job to do that. And the right either don't want things to change, because it works for them, or they don't think it's the government's job. But these aren't absolutes, for example nearly everyone agrees the government should provide free education for children since it hugely benefits both them and society in general.

    Traditionally the right wants to regulate your personal life, and the left what you can do with your money, but that has become more blurred recently. Personally I think the former is much more important for personal freedom.

    And I disagree about freedom of speech; both the far left and the far right are opposed to it, and the more moderate people on both sides support it.

    Also, government censorship is not the only threat to freedom of speech. In the UK much of the news media is owned by just a few people, who can control what we learn and put their own spin on the news. And the internet allows anyone to be heard, but equally it allows lies and fake news to spread. This is a much bigger problem here than what the government does.

    There is a nice graphic here:

    https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-world/

    Does that fit what you believe?

    “Civilians may not have tortured/exiled 100s, but are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of 1000s, indirectly, through their corruption, due to lack of public safety /decent health svcs”

    How was public safety and health care under the military? I can't see a sudden drop in life expectancy when the civilians took over.

    @TH
    “As an example my wife only pays 6% income tax on her company’s earnings.”

    You told me back in December your wife was deceased... 6% seems quite a high tax to pay when you're dead.

    Feb 16th, 2018 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “6% seems quite a high tax to pay when you're dead”
    Thanks for the confirmation that you will stick your oar in support of anyone whom I’m refuting. Yes my present wife pays that amount and my former wife is deceased you ignorant moron.

    Feb 16th, 2018 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    Polite and agreeable as ever I see. I can't believe even one woman would put up with someone so arrogant and unreasonable, let alone two.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 12:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    No fair comment against your intrusive, abusive and as usual unsupported assertion.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 12:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Terence Hill
    Remember when Jack Bauer said he had an MBA, and you said if he didn't prove it he must be lying?

    Well, you just said you have a wife, so prove it or else by your own faulty reasoning, you're a liar.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot

    How convenient for Jack! The killing of a whistleblower, he informs us, could be a PT job. No doubt, judge Moro should get Jack's precious help on this case, as he has almost solved the case.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “You said if he didn't prove it he must be lying” My reliance was “Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; States of Affairs; First published Tue Mar 27, 2012
    Philosophers connect sentences with various items, such as thoughts, facts and states of affairs. Thoughts are either true or false in an absolute sense, never both or neither.”
    plato.stanford.edu/entries/states-of-affairs/
    Which was a response to your analogy of being unprovable as you were attempting to foist on it.
    Moreover, there is absolutely no correlation as Tweedledum(JB) was attempting to claim expertise by virtue of education. So it doesn’t work that way pudding-head as I’m not claiming any such special expertise. Your claim that I’m a liar implies your personal knowledge. Thus, burden is yours. Otherwise, it is an Ab Absurdo Definition: Latin: an evidentiary suggestion … that is, or leads to, an absurdity.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Terry
    Hypocrite. Liar.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    Thanks for revealing the real depth of your intellect if that’s your version of winning argument. Hate disillusion you but all it’s shown is what a horse’s-ass you really are.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @Hypocrite Terence Hill
    That wasn't my argument, that was my conclusion. You've demonstrated your hypocrisy quite adequately above since you apply different standards to your claims than to Jack Bauer's.

    And you lied three times. Firstly about Jack Bauer, secondly that my example does not parallel yours since it clearly does, and thirdly that the burden of proof is mine. You are claiming to have a wife, you must prove it.

    So, you are proven to be a hypocrite and a liar. Enjoy.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    “I'd say the left want to improve society /think it's govt’s job to do that”; that’s 'exactly' the problem...imo. The govt should provide the basic means, the rest is up to the individual. Without a challenge, “becos govt’ will look after me”, will not ‘improve society'; sure govt should provide a ‘safety-net’ for the needy, but it shouldn’t become an instrument of accommodation.
    Thought we were talking of “moderate” left or right, not radical extremes. Anyway, as I said - before numb nuts rudely butted in - people ARE entitled to their opinion, and will elect the system (they think) serves them best, although I can’t see normal, or intelligent people voluntarily voting away their freedom.
    Monopolies, either State or private, aren’t good, but at least in a ‘working’ democracy, one can hope they tend to be held in check.

    Interesting link…it sets out the theoretical separation, or classic sides, of the spectrum, but today, the principles/concepts which are (more) characteristic of each side, are not that clearly defined in practise, even more so when politicians will sway with the wind, defending any side, or whatever suits them best, at the moment.
    Under the military, public safety was definitely greater (proportionately far less street crime)…public health services weren’t any worse, but instead of improving over the decades, have gradually deteriorated, and today are below criticism. If you don’t have private insurance and depend on the public network, you are screwed. Life expectancy doesn’t necessarily need to have dropped, as probably been compensated by the progress in medicine over the last 50 years, but public health services have deteriorated like never before (lack of funds, doctors, equipment, ). The reports one reads, or sees on TV, are literally, unbelievable.
    As to numb nut's wives, won't mention the first, out of respect, but I would think that the second one is the home-provider...TH is just too bloody stupid to fill those shoes.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “That wasn't my argument, that was my conclusion …You are claiming to have a wife, you must prove it.” You can equivocate all you want. It’s still your burden, I have no such burden as it’s clearly it is an Ab Absurdo Definition: Latin: an evidentiary suggestion … that is, or leads to, an absurdity. Its the fifth time you’ve attempted to take end runs around this issue and been refuted.
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/07/12/brazil-former-president-lula-da-silva-found-guilty-of-corruption/comments#comment470722
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2016/09/21/obama-blasts-those-who-build-walls-fuelled-by-nationalism-sectarian-hatred-and-economic-inequality/comments#comment450924
    “Funny how my truth deserves your comment, but on his abuses you stay silent.” h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/06/27/brazil-janot-files-formal-corruption-charges-against-temer/comments#comment469389
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2016/09/27/deutsche-bank-in-danger-zone-shares-down-50-this-year-and-sliding/comments#comment451316
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/10/14/argentine-teenagers-travel-to-falklands-in-high-school-graduation-trip/comments#comment475664
    http://en.mercopress.com/2017/11/30/ara-san-juan-since-falklands-conflict-buenos-aires-and-london-have-never-been-closer/comments#comment478577

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Yeah, but what is the basic means? I think we all accept certain things are the job of the government: defence, education, police, fire service, roads, some kind of safety net to stop people starving and living on the street (yet people still do). And in wealthy countries the government also makes sure people have access to clean water, electricity, sewage, healthcare etc. So what should the government do and what is the job of the individual in your opinion?

    If we are talking of moderates, then as I said I don't believe anyone on any side is anti-free speech. But it seems odd to me, you say you can't see intelligent people voting away their freedom, yet you supported the military dictatorship. It may not have affected you badly, but Brazilians certainly have more freedom now under democracy.

    For me, I support what has been shown to work, and I think this explains part of the blurring of the spectrum, as each side abandons ideas that are ineffective, or have become too unpopular. But each side still has different goals for their ideal society, so there is still disagreement.

    This site has a test to tell you where you fit on the political spectrum:

    https://www.politicalcompass.org/

    I took it as a student and again today, and I haven't changed as much as I was expecting.

    As for the healthcare, would it would be a fair test to compare its rise over time in Brazil with that in neighbouring countries?

    @Hypocrite Terry
    It wouldn't matter if you pasted 500 links, all your sophistry doesn't change the very simple fact that YOU are claiming something, and therefore it is YOUR burden to prove. Stop lying.

    Feb 17th, 2018 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    The fountain of truth is flaunting his long discredited option again. “TH is just too bloody stupid to fill those shoes.”
    Jack Bauer “He who claims all bathrooms in Brazil, … have poop receptacles, can be dismissed for being an idiot”
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/07/20/ex-brazilian-president-assets-and-bank-accounts-frozen/comments#comment471145
    h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/06/18/brazilian-president-temer-to-tour-russia-norway-this-week/comments#comment469123
    Jack Bauer “Your insistence that I'm a fascist” h ttp://en.mercopress.com/2017/05/25/brazilian-ex-presidents-discussing-the-outcome-of-the-political-situation/comments#comment467347
    http://en.mercopress.com/2017/07/12/brazil-former-president-lula-da-silva-found-guilty-of-corruption/comments#comment470582
    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “It is YOUR burden to prove …You are claiming to have a wife, you must prove it.” You can equivocate all you want. It’s still your burden, I have no such burden as it’s clearly it is an Ab Absurdo Definition: Latin: an evidentiary suggestion … that is, or leads to, an absurdity. It’s the fifth time you’ve attempted to take end runs around this issue and been refuted, et al.

    Feb 18th, 2018 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Your list is what we can’t provide on our own, the reason we pay taxes. Clean water /electricity svcs are usually ok in most big urban centres, but fanning out to distant suburbs, not always…neither in poorer, distant rural areas - there, electricity ‘might’ be available, and many times water has to be supplied by tank trucks, or fetched from some artesian well, miles away. Sewage is virtually non-existent in the very distant suburbs, or in the ‘favelas’. Obviously, these need drastic improvement. Besides the a/m svcs, govt should provide reasonable public safety, pre-university education (public universities are free, but getting in is not easy - only 2 or 3% of those taking the entrance exams get in, and are usually those who went to private schools or who did well in the public system), decent public health, popular (not free) housing, and public transport (directly or by concessions to the private sector).
    What is typically “up to the individual”, is studying, working hard, trying to gain access to the better things in life based on yr own effort. If the govt supplies the means, the individual can then makes his choices.
    No one ‘voted’ the military in (1964), it happened…imo, for the better. To stand up in public and berate the government would have been stupid, but if all other basic rights were guaranteed, why look for trouble ? Provided they respected the law, Brazilians have always enjoyed freedom…despite Lula’s attempts to ‘gag’ the press.
    Think the problems in public health stem from an increasing population, and planning / investments have not accompanied the increase. Many times unpopular measures are necessary, and not addressing them because of popularity issues is just a time-bomb. Eg., our social security.
    Test is interesting, but answer options are limited by the simple agree/disagree, and sometimes would require more... the red dot was 1/3 in the red quarter, 2/3 in the green, very close to the vertical line. What am I ?

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “What am I ?” You’ve already provided the answer to that little chestnut, absolute support for fascism.
    Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
    12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
    Brazil supportive of Mercosur ...
    14 Jack Bauer; ”.....but there is still one thing that can save Brazil...the Military..
    Brazil waiting for 50bn dollars …
    50 Jack Bauer; “Military taking over again, ….. they did it to prevent Brazil from being handed over to the communists. ... the Military , I hope, would be there again to save Brazil
    Brazil remembers the 50th anniversary of the coupe…
    15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 12:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @TH, aka Brain-less....
    You've just shown you are incapable of interpreting a graph, but it delights me to see that you continue to regurgitate what I write....hope it gives you indigestion, you senile old fart.

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    I'd agree with all that, but there are people who don't. Mostly Libertarians who think the government shouldn't exist and you should do everything for yourself. Their plans seem ridiculously impractical to me. And yes, studying and working hard is up to the individual, you can't force people to do that, only provide the opportunity.

    Is it really so hard to get into University in Brazil? In the UK it is very expensive now, but they have made it ridiculously easy to get in, though it's a bit harder to get into a good university.

    ”No one ‘voted’ the military in (1964)“

    True, but if you thought they did a good job, why wouldn't you vote for a similar party that followed their policies? And free speech is one of the most important rights IMO. You can't even argue in favour of other rights if you don't have that one.

    RE the test, I found it hard to answer as well. For example:

    ”Those with the ability to pay should have access to higher standards of medical care.“

    I don't think that's a desirable situation at all, ideally the government would make sure everyone has access to a high standard of care. But I certainly don't think people who can afford it should be prevented from going private, so how to answer? And another one:

    ”When you are troubled, it's better not to think about it, but to keep busy with more cheerful things.”

    It totally depends. If you are worrying about something you can't change then yes it's better to forget about it and get on with your life. But other times people really need to face up to their problems and stop avoiding them, so I had no idea what to choose.

    As for what you are: close to the vertical line would make you Centrist economically, and even slightly to the left, which is surprising. I'm not sure what you mean with the rest. Was the red dot in the red quarter or the green quarter? Mine was in the green quarter, I got these scores:

    Economic Left/Right: -3.5
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.41

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “I see that you continue to regurgitate what I write.” Isn’t the truth a bitch, especially for one who expends so much energy in perverting the truth. I’m delighted to reveal you as you really are and not as you pretend to be.

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Hey Terry, speaking of perverting the truth, how about you paste your favourite quote about who has the burden of proof? You know, the one you've repeated about 1000 times?

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    Have met my burden I’m not required too respond to absurdities such as prove I am a alive or that I have wife since it has bearing on the matters at hand. You are just reflecting your personal bias and your joining at the hip of a proven liar. Since your personal relationship to JB is revealed by your intimate knowledge of him. Such as he is in fact Argentinian, which has never been revealed in any post on Mercopress by him. You have revealed much more about your own lack of integrity by supporting the falsehoods of a lying fascist.

    Feb 19th, 2018 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I didn't think you'd do it. Funny how you stop repeating your beloved quotations when they don't support you.

    Here it is: “He who asserts must prove.” Short and sweet, and shows you for the hypocrite and liar you are, trying to shift the burden of proof onto me.

    As for JB, he's said several times that he was born in Argentina, you obviously weren't paying attention. But so what? Are you so bigoted you believe anyone born there is a liar?

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “He who asserts must prove” Which you claim “You just said you have a wife, so prove it or else by your own faulty reasoning, you're a liar”
    No your claim is void as an absurdity to wit:
    § 282. We ought to reject every interpretation that leads to an absurdity.
    Every interpretation that leads to an absurdity ought to be rejected: or, in other words, we should not give to any piece a meaning from which any absurd consequences would follow, but must interpret it in such a manner as to avoid absurdity. As it is not to be presumed that anyone means what is absurd, it cannot be supposed that the person speaking intended that his words should be understood in a manner from which an absurdity would follow.
    The Law of Nations or the Principles of Natural Law (1758) Emmerich de Vattel

    The principle “absurda sunt vitanda” (absurdities should be avoided) is well known from the times of Aristotle and Zeno. It was also used by famous Roman jurists. In the modern Europe it was used by English lawyers, as a principle (rule) governing interpretation of law. Thanks to its practicality it was named the “golden rule of interpretation”. Together with two other rules: the literal rule and the mischief rule, it composed a canon of interpretative activity of lawyers. It has become also an important argument justifying the use or rejection of certain methods of legal reasoning. The paper attempts to analyse the evolution of argumentation against absurdity in traditional English legal thinking as well as in works of contemporary authors.
    https://www.academia.edu/4190499/Argument_against_absurdity_of_legal_reasoning_fundamental_subsidiary_or_rhetoric
    Argument against absurdity of legal reasoning – fundamental, subsidiary or rhetoric? Tomasz Stawecki
    “As for JB, he's said several times that he was born in Argentina” If that were true then you would be able to prove it.

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    There are universities ‘n then there are “universities” (those a sensible person wouldn’t go to); there’re 100s, but “relatively” speaking, only a few ‘good’ ones ; if public, hard to get into (competition), if private, too expensive for the average person.

    You must remember, the takeover in ’64 was not an option the ‘people’ could choose, but it out turned out ok for most ; those who ‘attacked’ the military, got into trouble ; seeing Congress today, we’d probably be better off without it, but to those who experienced the 21 years of military rule, overall it was beneficial – they were hardliners, less corrupt, invested in infrastructure, cracked down on street crime (org crime, as known today, did not exist) – so if a party came along, with similar policies, and to which free-speech was not an issue, why not ? Only parties which have to hide their corruption, try to silence the press.

    ”Those with the ability to pay should have access to higher standards of medical care.“ : for lack of an intermediary answer, I ‘agreed’…my reason: ‘highER’ standard ‘for all’, is utopian (does it even exist, for all ?), but a ‘high’ standard, good coverage for all, is ‘possible’, and the difference for those ‘who can pay’, could be in the superfluous things, such as 1000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets, private rooms, big screen TV, extra bed for a family member etc…usually available in the expensive private plans, but medically speaking, should be the same.

    My red dot was ON the horizontal line, 1/3 of it top-left (red) square, 2/3 lower-left (green).

    Terry is certainly convinced he’s always right…is there a medical term for his condition ? his allegation that I never publicly disclosed where I was born - actually mentioned in at least half-a-dozen posts, the last one being : under “Brazil’s shares surge as Lula’s corruption conviction is confirmed” @ 27 Jan, 03:20 pm - just proves he’s a pedantic liar and a senile old fart.

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “I never publicly disclosed where I was born - actually mentioned in at least half-a-dozen posts, the last one being … Never made a secret of the fact I was born there...”
    You have admitted as such only after I wrote “Are you sure you’re not Argentinean? It is only those I have run into with a nationalist bent that have continually been revealed as chronic liars, that would still have the moxie to cast aspersions on others that are blameless.”
    Where is there even one admission solely of you own volition? Yet alone half-a-dozen.

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @THill, aka Brain-less, chronic liar

    It is my duty to inform you :

    My post :” his ('Terry's') allegation that I never publicly disclosed where I was born - actually mentioned in at least half-a-dozen posts, the last one being : under “Brazil’s shares surge as Lula’s corruption conviction is confirmed”, on 27 Jan, 03:20 pm”. N.B. : dated 27th January…

    Yr above reply : You have admitted as such only after I wrote “Are you sure you’re not Argentinean? It is only those I have run into with a nationalist bent that have continually been revealed as chronic liars”…

    Well, well, well…If I was trying to keep (where I was born) a secret, I could have done a “Terry” on you, i.e., try to “wiggle” my way out of it, by probably replying, “What’s it got to do with you ?”

    But now numb nuts, I will PROVE that YOU are the CHRONIC liar.

    Take a look at :
    1) headline : “Temer clashes with Supreme court over Christmas pardon list…” - my post of Jan 06, 2018 at 05:39 pm…” : I spent my early years in BA, but after coming to Brazil…”

    2) headline : “Support for Lula’s presidential bid despite his corruption conviction” my post of Jan 22, 2018 at 01:30 am… “As DT correctly states I was born in B.A., came here as a young kid…”
    There are a few previous posts where I also mentioned my birthplace, but as you aren’t worth giving the time of day to, I’ve posted only the two above, sufficient to prove to everyone on here, that YOU are the CHRONIC liar.

    Don't trip over your proboscis Pinnochio !!!!

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 08:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    Oh right. All of our public univerities are very expensive now - if you live in England - and it doesn't matter how smart you are. I was lucky since I went before they put the prices way up, I only paid £64 for 3 year's worth of tuition.

    If there was a party that wanted to limit free speech the way the military did, would you vote for them if you liked their policies otherwise?

    I also ticked agree for that question, for much the same reasons. That is pretty much how private medical care works in the UK, you get to the skip the queue and a nicer room, but the treatment is generally the same, and by the very same specialists who work for the NHS.

    And I understand you now; your dot must have been very close to the centre of the chart, and not on the right at all. Not the result I was expecting you to get.

    @Terry the absurd
    Yes, it is absurd, but it was your claim I was repeating, so you have now admitted you were wrong and absurd. And it makes no difference to who the burden of proof belongs to, you are still lying about that.

    And Jack has proved he never kept his birthplace a secret, so I hope you'll admit you were wrong about that, too.

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    All public universities here are free, that's why most people try to get in to them. And strangely enough, some are well-ranked.

    The military really didn't go out of their way to limit the press, although they did on occasion, to censor what they considered subversive...What I'm saying is that the person whose interest was to study or to work, and went about their own business, had nothing to worry about. But today, if a party's platform was against free-speech, of course I wouldn't vote for them...and I might add, that after the civilians took over, only Lula (and some high-ranking members of the PT) had a problem with the press.

    As far as the test is concerned, basically I am in favour of free-enterprise, a (fair) tax system that gives you reasonably good public services in return (as I paid a lot and didn't get much in return), social assistance to those who really need it, personal freedom and free speech.
    I think criminals must be dealt with strictly, and the law should not be full of loopholes that favour the criminals...as in Brazil, many times.
    The military invested in projects that prior Congresses, like today's, would only vote after getting their 'share', and disfiguring the project to accomodate 'their' needs. Today, as well as before, has usually been a matter of voting for the least bad, and the least radical.
    The further away from anything similar to the “Foro de São Paulo”, the better.

    Don't believe Terry will be man enough to admit he pissed out the pot, and that he is the only chronic liar around here....but in the 'unlikely' event he does - more likely will try to 'wiggle' out of it - I could always reply something to the effect of “You have admitted as such only after I wrote......” (see 4th post above, TH's).
    The truth's a b*tch, isn't it, Terry “Pinocchio” Hill ?

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @JB
    That may be the first time I've been jealous of something in Brazil. Ours used to be free, but they decided to send so many students that the government couldn't afford it, I guess. And we have a shortage of people who can do practical jobs like plumbing, it's silly. They forgot that you can educate people better but you can't really make them smarter.

    Maybe you're right that people wouldn't intentionally vote away their freedom, but they have still done it many times in history. I guess it's hard to know who is trustworthy, and there are enough examples of leaders who initially seemed okay but eventually made themselves into dictators. It seems to be happening in Venezuela right now.

    I think the majority of people would agree with that you say about the government, the devil is in the details. And in Brazil, I can see the devil is in the way the laws are disregarded, starting with the politicians who make them...

    And about Terry, too right the truth's a b*tch. It's a shame he's too much in denial to let himself see it. He's told so many lies about me, I'm tired of it.

    Feb 20th, 2018 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
    “(‘Terry's') allegation that I never publicly disclosed where I was born” Great day in the morning, Hallelujah finally, you have for once substantiated something, although that a third party claimed about you. You have also verified the following “Are you sure you’re not Argentinean? It is only those I have run into with a nationalist bent that have continually been revealed as chronic liars”. Which is verified by your denials of being a fascist and denying the standard practice of disposing soiled toilet paper in Brazil. Your claim that I am a liar doesn’t wash, it simply shows “a mistake of fact” and nothing more.
    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “So you have now admitted you were wrong and absurd” Hardly that is your admission, I have simply shown that there is no requirement vis-à-vis burden of proof to comply with absurdities. JB’s claim that he has two university degrees and an MA still appears to be refuted by his own inability to be able present an argument in the appropriate manner of an educated person.

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 04:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Couldn't wriggle out of that one, eh, Terry. But you still haven't admitted you were wrong, why don't you apologise to Jack for accusing him of hiding his place of birth?

    “that a third party claimed about you”

    Yeah, Jack is my slavish follower now. ;)

    “Your claim that I am a liar doesn’t wash, it simply shows “a mistake of fact” and nothing more. ”

    You are such a hypocrite. You call people liars all the time just for disagreeing with your bullshit, and have never once acknowledged they could simply be mistaken.

    And JB presents his arguments in a perfectly sensible way, and appears to be well educated. Whereas you have no idea what logic is or how to construct an argument at all, and constantly make spelling and grammar errors that only a badly educated person would. There is no reason to doubt what he said, let alone call him a liar for it. He has no more reason to prove it than you do to prove you have a wife, the two are exactly analogous.

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 12:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “You call people liars all the time” I call those that patently are, in that that they present issues that have no factual basis, and therefore engage in fraud. Or alternatively use sophism in attempt to deceive.
    “JB presents his arguments in a perfectly sensible way, and appears to be well educated” Simply your unsupported opinion, as it begs the question as to how he never meets his burden when he simply attempts to fob off his biased views as facts. Every time his untruths are exposed he reverts to personal attacks. A perfect example is his fictional historical narrative that the dictatorship was necessary to prevent an active communist uprising. When I have shown evidence from the historical record that no such thing occurred.
    “The two are exactly analogous.” No, there not, the latter has absolutely no bearing on the matters at hand. While the former is usually attempted deliberate fraud.
    “Whereas you have no idea what logic is or how to construct an argument at all” The fact that I have won most of arguments the I have presented in court demolishes that claim.
    “There is no reason to doubt what he said” When his claims are simply opinions that are attempting to impact factual issues, then there’s every reason.
    “If it is a Miracle, any sort of evidence will answer, but if it is a Fact, proof is necessary” Mark Twain
    “No way of thinking or doing, however ancient, can be trusted without proof.” Henry David Thoreau
    “Take nothing on its looks; take everything on evidence. There's no better rule,” Charles Dickens

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    No, you call people liars when they disagree with you, and then you post some irrelevent quote and claim you won the argument. It's always the same with you. And everytime I point out that you're wrong and explain why, you revert to personal attacks. Your hypocracy is astounding. Jack's MBA has no bearing on the matter at hand either; he wasn't applying for a job. And the fact you are deluded enough to think you won any arguments just proves exactly how little you understand. You've lost again and again, to the point I just assume you are wrong now.

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 05:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    @DT
    Your description of numb nuts is well on target. A lonely, miserable little prick.
    He never gives direct or truthful answers, always tergiversating ; to me, his 'wife', or wives, are fictional characters in his sick mind.......I mean, who would be so stupid to marry that idiot ?

    @TH, aka Brain-less, worth-less twit
    I was right - you aren't man enough to admit you're wrong....you are a rat and a stinkin' coward, a pussy ; instead you try to sidestep the issue by presenting us with a collection of “Terry's best lies of the year”, with your customary arrogance (typical of those with a small brain and an inferiority complex), and try to wiggle out of a situation where you have made a big fool of yourself , once again...

    Everything you write is worth-less - there is no logic to it, it's is load of crap based on wishful thinking (UN interference in Brazil's internal matters), weird fantasies (worshipping Lula, and God knows what else), demands for proof from everyone yet never presenting your own, quotes of other people's irrelevant opinions (which have obviously made a deep impression in the 'brown' matter in your head) ; it's full of mistakes (as I have pointed out before, and DT once again, now), and has no connection to the truth or reality.... your mumbo-jumbo is pathetic - you presume you know more about people you've never met, than they do...your little brain concludes that because I was born in BA I have to be a chronic liar ; because I coudn't give damn about your political views, that I'm a fascist - where your 'proof', or is that just one more of your irrelevant, 'uninformed' opinions ? You keep on harping about 'soiled toilet paper', as if everything important in life revolved around it...maybe it did/does still, in your sorry life. You call your stinkin' lies “ 'mistakes of fact', and nothing more..” that's a new definition...where did you find it ? in “Terry's Pinnochio Dictionary” ?

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I shouldn't have replied to him really, it's always pointless...

    Terry, how about instead of us arguing, you take the same test that me and Jack took? That would be more interesting, and shouldn't involve any insults. Jack's result surprised me, maybe yours will too.

    Feb 21st, 2018 - 08:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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