MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Jair Bolsonaro 18 points ahead of Haddad, according to latest Datafolha survey
Brazil's extreme right presidential candidate Jair Bolsonaro is eighteen points ahead of Fernando Haddad for the runoff scheduled for 28 October. Datafolha released on the evening of Thursday 18 October its latest survey results for the Brazilian presidential runoff which showed Bolsonaro with 59% vote intention against Haddad's 41%. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rules“Brazil's extreme right presidential candidate Jair Bolsonaro is eighteen points ahead of Fernando Haddad for the runoff scheduled for 28 October.”
Oct 22nd, 2018 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil's “extreme right” prez candidate..........why the “extreme” ? why not only refer to the “right” ? the MSM carries on attacking the right , as if (to use DT's expression) it were the 'devil incarnate', while the PT and their “communist” allies (PSOL, PC do B and others, including the Foro de SP) are referred to as 'democratic' ......the press needs to learn what impartial reporting and the term 'democratic' really mean...
Because he is extreme. The same media did not call Macri, or Piñera, or Kuczynski far right, they never call our Conservative party or the main right-wing parties in Europe far right, because they're not.
Oct 23rd, 2018 - 08:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0@JB/DT:
Oct 23rd, 2018 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: Extreme, Right, Extreme-Right [& other eulogies]
Pl. wait till March/April-2'019 - we'll know if the economy changes colors from Extreme-Red to Pitch-Black!
https://conteudo.imguol.com.br/blogs/58/files/2017/11/DukePassado.jpg
DT
Oct 23rd, 2018 - 07:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, you are wrong. When/if he gets in, and his policies - after going through Congress - are implemented, we can discuss this again....meanwhile it's just speculation, based on 'obsolete' info.
The PT has never faced such hard times as these, and it has made them resort to their worst tactics, such as resuscitating videos of (19) years ago on Bolsonaro, when his rhetoric was vehemently anti-left (and still is, but toned down), and videos of months ago, such as the one where his son said a soldier and a corporal were enough to shut down the STF.....taken out of context....as I've shown by the video I posted on the “Paulo Guedes” thread. He was not at a political rally, but at a lecture, when someone asked him a hypothetical question....which he answered in that hypothetical context.
I am getting fed up having to find proof to counteract fake accusations and fake news, because it seems that the sources you get yr info from, are not impartial....not to mention your lean to the left....understandable, given where and how you've experienced it.
I've already stated that I'm a (centrist 'n) libertarian, in that I favor small govt, personal freedom etc.....that is exactly what Bolsonaro is preaching, besides clamping down hard on organized & street crime....obviously many people are feeling threatened, as law & order has never been Brazil's strong point, and now it looks like their freedom to act might be curbed....sorry to insist, but you have absolutely no clue what REALLY goes on here, how the people feel, yet YOU feel you can criticize everything that is not 'left' , and give us advice based on the lefty reports you read in the UK....they seldom tell the whole truth. No wonder when foreigners arrive here they get a shock.
You've already said you are not a communist, and I believe you, as you have no reason to be, yet , I'd still like to know why the extreme left, to you, is apparently, not as bad as the extreme right.....what's better on the 'left' ?
What else can we go on but his words and actions? And as his actions have mostly consisted of doing nothing except voting against the sort of economic policies he now espouses, we are left with his words. If you can't see they are extreme... then honestly, I think you're biased as hell, because if Lula said the same you'd be expecting the communist takeover tomorrow.
Oct 23rd, 2018 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“I am getting fed up having to find proof to counteract fake accusations and fake news”
Good. Now you understand how people on the left feel, after spending years trying to counter lies about global warming, bullshit conspiracy theories about Obama, and so much more. Besides, seeing the other 'side' do it will make it easier to spot on your own, and that's a good skill for anyone.
And no, I'm not impartial. I try to be fair, but I'm a leftist; B's 'vehemently anti-left' rhetoric produces exactly the reaction you'd expect if you threatened and insulted someone.
Did you see the article about the US budget deficit?
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/10/23/united-states-2018-federal-budget-deficit-at-its-highest-since-2012-us-779bn
What do you think of Trump's borrow-and-spend policy? Still prefer Guedes' austerity plans?
@DT
Oct 23rd, 2018 - 11:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0His words...sometimes exaggerated to the listener, but knowing what a President can and can't do, with or without Congress's authorization...it doesn't worry me in the least. I only hope his resolve to combat crime is not exaggerated. Which “actions” ? Regarding many of his votes, for or against laws, the left has selected excerpts of his declarations in the lower house - OR, once again, taking them out of context, to make him look like a villain. One such excerpt used by the PT, is one where he votes against a law meant to establish and equalize domestic servant's rights to those of company employees. His point was that the exaggerated burden on the individual employer would make many house servants lose their jobs, and advocated for their rights but in a less draconian manner....he was accused of being against the servants, but his forecast came true...After the law was passed, about 20 servants (1/3) were dismissed in my condo alone. In the neighborhood, the same.
“Good. Now you understand how people on the left feel about...” While these subjects are all debatable, I'm referring to LOCAL matters, regarding which, modesty aside, I am much more familiar with than someone who does not live here...one such example - Your insistence on doubting Lula's guilt, despite my incessant repetition of the proof etc, which convicted him....once a subject has been discussed, agreed or disagreed upon, FORGET IT....don't keep on bringing it up and obliging me to repeat myself...I don't mind debating, but after I've exposed my ideas, and /or explained why 'x,y, or z' happened, it's pointless to keep harping on the same thing.
I have not yet seen the article on the US budget...............and quite frankly DT, I am starting to feel I've had enough of discussing politics on MP for quite awhile. Thinking seriously of giving it a rest, as arguing back and forth does absolutely nothing to increase my “level of happiness”....
I have better things to do with my time.
“Starting on [October] 29, without rest, we’ll start working to take down [media group] Globo, [newspaper] Folha [de S.Paulo] and all public enemies! Got it?,” wrote Olavo de Carvalho, a self-proclaimed philosopher who has become the mentor for a new right-wing generation in Brazil. He hates the label of “alt-right guru” he has been given, referring to himself as a “mere observer of reality.” But the truth is that thousands of Brazilian right-wingers look up to him as their political guide.
Oct 24th, 2018 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Based in the U.S. since 2005, Mr. Carvalho shares his adopted country’s passion for guns and carries himself as a sort of “Marlboro Man,” frequently posing with a cigarette in the corner of his mouth and wearing a cowboy hat.
Olavo de Carvalho is a divisive character. He’s either seen as a “master”, a teacher, “the only guy who calls it as it is,” according to one of his Facebook followers – a “true intellectual who rejects the status quo and the obviousness of Brazil’s academics,” as said another.
Others paint him with less flattering colors. He is, for some, the caricature of a conservative who fuels conspiracy theories (such as the international plan of the left to implant a Gramscian revolution). The people who follow his online philosophy courses are seen as brainless radicals who mimic him without much self-reflection. Olavo de Carvalho is also seen as an enemy of all, as he treats the left and part of the right as antagonists.
https://brazilian.report/society/2018/10/23/guru-brazil-right-wing-olavo-de-carvalho/
@JB
Oct 24th, 2018 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't remember why I brought Lula up that time, but I truly didn't intend to rehash something we'd already discussed and agreed to disagree on. And, obviously it is NOT a good thing if the PT or anyone is spreading fake news. I was just feeling frustrated since it seems too few people care to know the truth any more, and that's a big problem in a democracy.
Also I never even heard about that vote before you mentioned it, and that is a whole other debate with something to be said on each side. The only thing I have seen in the news (probably here on Mercopress) is that in the past Bolsonaro consistently voted against privatisation and in favour of government intervention.
I know you don't understand it, but the prospect of B being elected really scares me, so it's much harder to accept you supporting him now than the long-gone military government. In some ways I'd rather just talk about something else and not know your views, but that seems kind of cowardly.
Anyway, I do enjoy talking with you, and I've learned a lot. I thought you felt the same way. I certainly never intended to make you miserable, and I'm sorry if I have been.
@DT
Oct 24th, 2018 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well, IF Bolsonaro, in the past, did vote against privatization, I’m not going to bother checking it out, because NOW he IS in favor of it. Even FHC was. There is no question that State-owned companies, competing with the private sector, ‘n govt monopolies, are bad for the economy. Only politicians who want to use the State-owned companies as their political domains, are against it.
You’re scared ? why, you don’t even live here…I am not scared at all ‘n I DO live here. I firmly believe that B intentions are light-years away from trying to implement anything that resembles a military dictatorship…time will tell…anyway, whatever I say now (even if well fundamented), is technically, only speculation, and whatever you think or say, even more so.
Just fyi, in June, the TSE asked all parties to sign an agreement to not promote fake news…31 signed it…4 refused to…the PT and 3 commie allies. No need to ask why.
Just like you to know that my dislike for the PT is not an irrational, gratuitous sentiment. Despite their being left, had they really done something good for Brazil , I could have supported them, but their lies and proven incapacity to govern honestly, are what has made most Brazilians reject them.
It’s a pity you can’t just transport yrself here, to experience what we do, instead of having to depend on the ‘selected’ news you get in the UK. Would just like to point out that I have no agenda, no ulterior motive on here. I have nothing to gain in lying. My posts are based on either personal experience or reliable sources of information, which I normally check out when they sound suspicious.
You seem to be a reasonable person, and I appreciate our exchanges, but I don’t appreciate having someone doubt my motives. A common saying here, which makes sense, is “never discuss soccer or politics” if you don’t want to lose a friend…we can carry-on, but let’s try to keep it “light”.
JB
Oct 24th, 2018 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Mourão was never in command during Brazil's presence.” So Heleno was a subordinate of Mourão, therefor there is a shared culpability.
”My unrestricted support for my longtime friend and respected military chief (Mourão), “wrote Augusto Heleno, on Facebook”
https:// exame.abril.com.br/.../ex-comandante-de-tropas-no-haiti-def...
”Port-au-Prince (Haiti) - From March 17 to 21, the 21th Brazilian Contingent Peacekeeping Infantry Battalion (BRABAT 21) at the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) was visited by a delegation led by Commander of Terrestrial Operations, Army General Araken de Albuquerque , and by the Southern Military Commander, Army General Antônio Hamilton Martins Mourão.”
So Heleno was a subordinate of Mourão
página Haiti - Haiti - Exército Brasileiro
www. eb.mil.br/.../haiti/inicio?
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/10/16/paulo-guedes-the-ultra-liberal-economic-advisor-of-an-ultra-populist-nationalist/comments#comment493740
@JB
Oct 24th, 2018 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think your dislike for the PT is irrational, and I certainly don't think you're lying. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with you about whether Bolsonaro is extreme or not, or anything else. If you prefer a different answer to your original question, it's that if I think he is extreme, then so do most of the journalists. I was trying to remember if they have described any governments as far-left, and could only think of one - Syriza in Greece. They are definitely pretty extreme, and I think the only far-left party currently in power in Europe.
As an example the other way around, I know you don't believe me that Brexit is a bad thing, even though I know a lot more about it. But I assume you don't think I'm lying? And you don't believe that doing more research, or living in the UK would necessarily change your mind, right? I could get on a plane to Brazil tomorrow, but I still wouldn't experience what you do, and probably wouldn't draw the same conclusions.
As for B, I'm worried that Brazil will end up less democratic, less free, with less rights (and less rain forest), that a lot more people will be poor and suffer with no recourse, and the government will gather more and more power. And I'm afraid of the spread of the far right for the same reason you worry about the FdSP. Sure I don't live in Brazil, but it's happening in Europe, too. And I know you don't share my fears, but back when Chavez was first starting out, there were plenty of people on the left who thought he was great, and I had no more reason to doubt their knowledge and sincerity than yours now. Only time will tell, but I think you'll agree it would have been a good thing for Vz if the people there had spotted the signs sooner.
“never discuss soccer or politics”
It makes sense. Maybe we really should stop talking about B. Temer is on the right, or at least his policies were, but he never provoked this kind of disagreement.
Bolso/Haddy - no matter who the Next-One is:
Oct 25th, 2018 - 10:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://midia.gruposinos.com.br/_midias/jpg/2016/01/10/sinovaldo_para__1101_2016_cmyk-1273591.jpg
TH
Oct 25th, 2018 - 10:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are getting yr info from leftist sites, like Brazil de Fato, which just tells lies. 1st, Gen. August Heleno was the Brazilian army’s first commander in Haiti, in 2004. He was never Mourão’s subordinate, so much so, the only two countries where Mourão ‘served’ outside of Brazil, was in Angola ‘n in Venezuela. 2nd, Gen. August Heleno only mentioned Mourão in recent declarations, to defend him against attacks from the left…thus “My unrestricted support for my longtime friend and respected military chief (Mourão), “wrote Augusto Heleno, on Facebook”.
Yr abv post also says “the Brazilian Contingent Peacekeeping Infantry Battallion was VISITED by a delegation led by Gen. Araken Albuquerque 'n Southern Military Commander Mourão”…so looks like Mourão only “visited” Haiti with a Brazilian delegation, while he was South. Mil. Commander….So there’s proof that you are full of bullshit, or you are incapable of understanding Portuguese….and English. Most likely, all three.
@DT
Don’t need to agree with me…although I believe my opinion, in this case, carries more weight than yours, I’m willing to wait and see what happens.
When/if Bolsonaro is elected, and the military doesn't take over, we can talk again.
It is expected of left-wing sites 'n journalists to emphasize all they consider nasty on the right, while they defend the left.
I don’t know whether Brexit is, or will be a good /bad thing. I just said how I reacted in the past, based on what I’d heard, but I’m far from an expert on it…and I believe you when you give yr opinion on it. More research ? provided from totally impartial sources might help.
If you'd spent the last month here, seeing political propaganda/fake news, or if you spent two weeks in Rio, where you’d be exposed to more than 400 shootouts…I bet you’d get a better feel of things.
Once again, my bet : might take 2 yrs, but Bzl will only improve under B. Temer is NOT on the right…his economic policies, neither right nor left, just make sense.
@JB
Oct 25th, 2018 - 11:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think the military will take over in the way they did before, I just think rights and democracy will be eroded (and without the former, the latter is just tyranny of the majority). It's not even necessary for the government to persecute people, so long as they make it clear to the mob they can get away with doing it.
As for Brexit, good luck finding an impartial source. This is the best I could do, and it references a lot of statements from the various campaigns, which might be confusing, but it's a start:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-facts-brexit-immigration-trade-economy-fishing-leave-remain-what-will-happen-a7095046.html
When I was younger I spent 2 months in Central America and didn't see a single shootout. I guess Brazil is pretty different?
As for Temer, reducing workers' rights and the power of unions is 100% a right-wing policy, as is cutting spending when it's on social programs. The left would more likely cut military spending, although it's probably not that high in Brazil anyway (who on earth would attack you?) Anyway, I'd say Temer is centre-right, but that's still right.
JB
Oct 26th, 2018 - 01:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0“He was never Mourão’s subordinate,..” Which is contradicted by his own words at the following URL.
”My unrestricted support for my longtime friend and respected military chief (Mourão), “wrote Augusto Heleno, on Facebook”
https:// exame.abril.com.br/.../ex-comandante-de-tropas-no-haiti-def...
@JB
Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0RE “Paulo Guedes the ultra liberal...”
“it's a well-known fact that Islam is at work silently”
You can see why I thought that speech sounded familiar, if you just replace the name of the enemy. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume you do NOT endorse Hitler's methods of dealing with it, so what do you propose? It strikes me that Brazil also has a fair number of Muslim immigrants, but little to no terrorism, so what are you doing differently to Europe?
“Sure when insidious movements start, few people can see beyond their noses... Of course, there are also those who like to exaggerate the seriouness of events”
That's the trick, isn't it? Are you Churchill or are you Chamberlain? Some demagogues moderate themselves when they get into power, others grow worse the more power they gain. Churchill obviously thought fascism was a greater threat than communism, and fought and defeated it, but he also believed communism was dangerous; after the defeating the Axis, he tried to persuade Truman to immediately declare war on the Soviet Union, before they could develop their own atomic bomb.
“those where democracy is still fledgeling, democracy runs a real risk of being subverted by extreme movements, which have the freedom to act”
I agree, and not just by the far-left, but also the far-right, and any movement or individual that becomes popular enough.
“It is far easier to “topple” a democtartic government than an authoritarian one.”
Is that really true, though? Hitler's 1000 year Reich only lasted 12 years, while the democracy he denounced as weak and easily undermined in the UK is still going strong. And the democratic US outlived the authoritarian Soviet Union. As for Islam, the Taliban was formed to fight the USSR, and Russia had no more success eradicating them than America did later.
Re Haiti, nearly any country would be better, but if the Brazilian soldiers were really so much worse than the other 19 nations', they'd probably pick somewhere else to go.
@DT:
Oct 26th, 2018 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's not just any “ism” or “ist” but it's the power of mass-hypnotism + brainwashing of the masses that ultimately gets a leader to grab power [no matter how long he/she (wants to) hold on to it]; I think & the bottom line is the all-prevalent corruption.
NOBODY IN HIS/HER RIGHT MIND WOULD GO THROUGH ALL THE TROUBLE WITHOUT THE REAL INTENTION OF GRABBING POWER AND MONEY!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ID_VWA_h0X8/VVZpq55NI4I/AAAAAAAAOPY/pmI727N3b0E/s1600/Blog.jpg
TsHit
Oct 26th, 2018 - 07:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You're having a hard time even trying to understand English..”My unrestricted support for my longtime friend 'n respected military chief (Mourão)“...By 'chief', Heleno did not mean ”boss”...amazing how bloody stupid you are....look up the names of the 13 generals, the military commanders in Haiti fm 2004/17....Mourão's name ain't there....he was commander of Brazil's southern army, and only 'visited' haiti with a delegation...unbelievable.
@DT
presume you refer to the 'holocaust' as Hitler's solution ? of course not. In Brazil there're practically zero problems with the Muslim community, despite the well-known fact that in the triple-frontier region there are sleeper cells...they are being monitored, 'n suppose that as long as they stay put, there's not much that can be done....but it would be irresponsible to believe they don't represent a potential threat. And as I've mentioned before, here (up to now) the Muslims/Arabs ('n Jews), are more interested in making money that causing trouble.
I think I'd be Churchill...no harm in being suspicious, and keeping yr eyes open..
“I agree, and not just by the far-left, but also the far-right”...presume here, yr fears are based on yr beliefs about B.....I think you are wrong, as in Brazil it's always the left that has tried to encroach on personal freedom/initiative, to go slowly but surely undermining traditional values ..as we've seen here, over the last 15 years. But wait until 2019.
““It is far easier to “topple” a democratic government than an authoritarian one.”. From ”within”, it is....democracy allows people the freedom to try to destroy it...and no one tries to stop them....authoritarian govts simply don't put up with dissent....USSR. S.Arabia..
Hitler's perception of EU democracies in 1939, and /or his deliberate criticism of them, was a ploy to legitimize his plans. USSR crumbled under its own weaknesses ; US democracy was too strong to be threatened by communists.
Bzln army was far from 'worse'.
JB
Oct 26th, 2018 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0By 'chief', Heleno did not mean ”boss”. Well I'm sure that every one else world would know that chief means boss, it's not subordinate, or equal. So by deductive logic it cannot mean anything but boss. Incidentally, my thesaurus shows that chief does mean boss. ”chief noun boss.
Dictionary Version 2.2.2 (203) Copyright © 2005-2017 Apple Inc. All rights reserved.
@JB
Oct 26th, 2018 - 11:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was thinking of the holocaust, and communists were sent to the camps along with Jews and gypsies; political prisoners wore a red triangle. But long before that, Hitler set up the paramilitary brownshirts to fight with communist supporters, and after he was elected, he used the Reichstag fire as an excuse to eliminate communists, and to pass a decree similar to Brazil's AI5, but more drastic, to suspend all civil liberties. That let him arrest thousands of communists and other opponents, ban the communist party, and intimidate all the others, increasing his majority in the Reichstag and allowing him to pass the enabling act which effectively made him dictator. That is probably what he was talking about in the speech, when he said he'd 'saved Germany from Bolshevism'.
“in Brazil it's always the left that has tried to encroach on personal freedom/initiative”
You lived under a right-wing military dictatorship for 20 years! That most certainly encroached on personal freedom. And since then you haven't had a really right-wing government; the presidents before Lula were pretty centrist, so how would you know what the right might do? My fears are based on countries here in Europe, where far-right governments are busy reducing personal freedom and weakening institutional protections.
“Hitler's perception of EU democracies in 1939, and /or his deliberate criticism of them, was a ploy to legitimize his plans.”
Maybe so, but I think he believed his own rhetoric. Considering his later acts were not too rational...
How about the 'Arab Spring' countries? I'd say their governments were overthrown from within. At first I thought you might be right, but as I think about it I'm less and less sure.
I don't know much about Haiti, but I shouldn't think Brazil's army was worse than the others. They've never fought a real war though, have they?
@DT
Oct 27th, 2018 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: They've never fought a real war though, have they?
They couldn't even win the War-Games - on many occasions - with the Traffickers who were much better organized, more determined and better armed!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M_IxqzGZ7L4/UtglTOYtgmI/AAAAAAAAEhg/qJMOZxF-B9A/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/charge_mn_17_01_2014.jpg
@ :o))
Oct 27th, 2018 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lol.
@TH
I'm replying here since the other thread closed.
Okay, you didn't make it up, the author of the article did, or made a mistake. I looked through lots of accounts of Mourão's career, and found no mention of Haiti, so unless you can find some other evidence I'm going to assume that article is wrong.
I did find something else while I was searching, though, which surprised me a lot:
“Confesso publicamente que votei no Lula no segundo turno, porque jamais votaria no candidato do Fernando Henrique Cardoso. No primeiro turno, trabalhei para Ciro Gomes, que perdeu. No segundo, escolhi a opção que considerava a melhor.
Haverá brava crise pela frente, mas mantemos a esperança de dias melhores. Espero que o companheiro Lula — já que está na moda falar assim — consulte os quadros do PT, do PCdoB e de outros partidos para fazer suas escolhas.”
-- Jair Bolsonaro, 5th Dec 2002
http://www.camara.leg.br/internet/sitaqweb/TextoHTML.asp?etapa=3&nuSessao=226.4.51.O&nuQuarto=11&nuOrador=1&nuInsercao=0&dtHorarioQuarto=09%3A20&sgFaseSessao=BC++++++++&Data=05%2F12%2F2002&txApelido=JAIR+BOLSONARO&txFaseSessao=Breves+Comunica%C3%A7%C3%B5es+++++++++++&dtHoraQuarto=09%3A20&txEtapa=Com+reda%C3%A7%C3%A3o+final
Is Bolso secretly a socialist?!
Luckily, nothing will change if it doesn't worsen!
Oct 27th, 2018 - 10:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://entrenoticias.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/charge-intervencao-militar-no-rio-de-janeiro-300x225.jpg
@DT
Oct 27th, 2018 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Right, left out perhaps the most important, USSR subsidies. Bread 'n circus may keep people happy, but for how long ? how does it contribute to sustainable progress ?
Difference btween yr hypothetical opinion of Lula in 2002, 'n mine, is that I'd known Lula for 30 yrs.
“best” land is in the S & SE…well, why d’you think ? 'now' yes, perhaps because people’s hard work transformed it into what it is today ? The so-called “familias ‘quatrocentões”, that have existed since colonial times ‘n were favored by the Crown, have all but disappeared 'n/or are broke. They aren't who own our cattle ‘n agribusiness.
Let’s not get into slavery…that's a whole different story 'n has nothing to do with land distribution in Brazil, today. Proof that the MST is now just a political movement, is the fact they did not settle on the land they received. The documentary is just leftist/MST propaganda….very one-sided.
Just to prove, once 'n for all, tt TH, besides being an inveterate liar, does not know how to interpret what he reads : if the below link does not open, google it ; there it is, for even the dumbest to understand, a list of his postings, including his overseas service…in Angola (peace mission) and in VZ (military attaché)…only.
Hamilton Mourão – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
Nome completo Antônio Hamilton Martins Mourão
Nascimento 15 de agosto de 1953 (65 anos)
Porto Alegre, RS
Nacionalidade brasileiro
Partido PRTB (desde 2018)
Serviço militar
Lealdade Brasil
Serviço/ramo Exército Brasileiro
Anos de serviço 1972-2018 (46 anos)
Comandos • 27° Grupo de Artilharia de Campanha
• 2.ª Brigada de Infantaria de Selva
• 6.ª Divisão de Exército
• Departamento de Educação e Cultura do Exército
• Comando Militar do Sul
• Secretaria de Economia e Finanças
TH doesn't unstand Portuguese : in Heleno's FB text, where he says “amigo de longa data e respeitado chefe militar”, it translates in to “friend 'n 'A respected military chief'”, not boss.
JB
Oct 27th, 2018 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“TH, besides being an inveterate liar” Your opining is just pissing into the wind, since you can't produce one instance. Whereas, I have produced proof of your consummate lying, on dozens of occasions. The most outstanding being your expressed wish for the return of a military dictatorship, while attempting the fraud, of your denying you are a fascist.
If Slate is in error, then it is because they placed reliance on Heleno's own poor choice of words, which are clearly ambiguous enough.
TH
Oct 27th, 2018 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The 'instance' you refer to Numb Nuts, is right above.....Heleno's Portuguese is impeccable....it's your incapacity to understand the language that has taken you to make a fool of yourself....what's worse, even after your mistake has been pointed out, you insist on it....the sign of a real idiot. Don't try to wiggle out of it, there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in Heleno's words, reason why I went to the source, to not have to rely on some shitty translation of yours... and as if that weren't bad enough, the fact remains, Mourão only set foot in Haiti when he visited it as part of a delegation while he was commander of Brazil's Southern Army....so, how could he be commander in Haiti, and of Brazil's southern Command at the same time ? what's your next excuse ?
Ah, and btw, how, even if used out of context by you, does “your expressed wish for the return of a military dictatorship”, constitute a LIE ????
If I said “TH, I wish you'd disappear”, is that just a wish (given the options of your staying around, or disaapearing), or a LIE ?? Answer, without bullshitting, if you can.
But now I understand why you accuse me of “lying, on dozens of occasions”... “...Whereas, I have produced proof of your consummate lying, on dozens of occasions”......it's because when I write something YOU don't agree with, it's not a difference of opinion, but a LIE....
JB
Oct 27th, 2018 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't give as rat's ass whether he was in Haiti or not. I have simply relayed an article from Slate. It's not my obligation to proof read their publication. Nor is my intention to pass any judgements on the military performances of these gentlemen, or the conduct of the army in Brazil. Suffice, is to say, that both gentlemen would have preferred a better biography, than the one that already exists.
“It's because when I write something YOU don't agree with...” It's not your opinion, it's your deliberate missstating of the facts
that is the lie.
TH
Oct 27th, 2018 - 09:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok, now you admit you lied...always full of feeble excuses. Dickhead.
@DT
Look, I’m not defending Hitler, never have. Rgdng Brazil’s AI-5, are you trying to equalize our military regimes to Hitler ? Hitler was as extreme as it gets, our military only went after its declared enemies, abt 400, and why does the left – ie, the Commission of Truth” - just talk about the army’s atrocities ?
You seem to be afraid of what Bolsonaro, if elected, “might do”….Don’t take it from me, but let’s wait ‘n see what happens…on the other hand, we know what will happen if the PT gets in…call for a new constitution…why ? insist on teaching 6 yr olds about gender identity…you no longer have a gender, but a ‘sex’…which can be male, female, transgender, lesbian, transvestite….no problem, we are all the same…what bs ! same rights, yes - but we’re all the same, no.
“You lived under right-wing military dictatorship for 20 yrs...that encroached on personal-freedom”. How many times must I tell you that ‘whatever’ you define as “encroaching on personal-freedom”, it only affected 0,0000026 % of the population…hardly a figure to be used to generalize.
”so how would you know what the right might do?” 1st, I don’t know ‘what’ the right might have done, the fact is they didn’t ; 2nd, the military taking over was not an choice…it happened.
The right in EU barely has a foothold, and you’re worried ? The fact you weren’t here, experienced nothing, makes it hard for you to understand the context in which all the events happened.
Ok, so Hitler was a madman and believed his own crap…so ?
Re the Arab Spring countries, what happened there were violent uprisings (“within”, only if you mean inside their borders), NOT a silent revolution slowly undermining their trad’l values. They aren’t what I was referring to.
Brazil’s army was respected for what it did in Haiti ; and yes, it fought in WWII, as of July 44, against the Germans in Italy…25,000 men, who took 14,000 German prisoners.
@JB
Oct 27th, 2018 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Obviously Bolsonaro didn't share your opinion of Lula in 2002. I'm even more amazed he supported Ciro in the first round, and told Lula to listen to the PCdoB (I know they're not really communist, but still...)
Anyway, I don't speak Portuguese, and it was obvious to me Terry's quote didn't prove what he claimed. Besides, his translation was exactly what Google translate gave.
Don't see how you can say slavery had nothing to do with land distribution, as obviously slaves could neither claim land, nor make and save money to enable them to travel to where it was available, or buy tools necessary to start working it.
Who are the oligarchs in the North and North East if not 'familias quatrocentões'?
@TH
Told you you were wrong.
JB
Oct 27th, 2018 - 10:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Ok, now you admit you lied.” No I do not, which is supported by DT.
“Okay, you didn't make it up, the author of the article did, or made a mistake.”
Since you can't prove your claim you are exposed as a liar. “Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; States of Affairs; First published Tue Mar 27, 2012
“Philosophers connect sentences with various items, such as thoughts, facts and states of affairs. Thoughts are either true or false in an absolute sense, never both or neither.”
plato.stanford.edu/entries/states-of-affairs/
DT
“Told you you were wrong.” Hardly, since I'm merely the messenger. Slate can hardly be faulted for relying on the word, of an apparently badly spoken general.
@DT
Oct 28th, 2018 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0In Brazil it is not uncommon for some politicians to go changing their minds over the years...especially after seeing what their support of Lula did to Brazil over the last 15...and with so many parties (35), it is inevitable that they have a lot more in common than in differences. You cannot presume they maintain their convictions as if they were carved in stone...most sway with the wind, others might actually develop some sense of responsibility.
I've consulted Google translate on occasions, and it is not uncommon that the translations are imprecise.. while it helps someone who does not speak the language, it is far from being 100% reliable. But I don't care whether TH got his knickers in a twist, because after being proved wrong, he just carried on....and above, he now has the nerve to say “you supported him” (???). He is using your name in vain.
Slavery ended 130 years ago...most of the freed slaves did not show any inclination to want to stay and work the land...they migrated to the cities. Anyway, the agribusiness appeared one century later, and the MST appeared about 25 years ago, so there is no connection btwn any of them.
The current oligarchs in the N & NE were formed in the late 50s, 60s, when the federal government established two State-cos, SUDAM and SUDENE, to develop the N & NE….the then politicians, as usual, funneled most of the funds in to their own pockets, bought land, radio stations, papers, TVs, all in order to consolidate “their” way of life. That's why the N & NE is still so backward...the politicians had no interest in progress, and, in their domains, they literally held the power of life and death in their hands…the ‘familias quatrocentão’ appeared in the 1600/1700s, some were immigrant familes, became industrialists, as well as being connected to the SP coffee barons.
If THs “I'm merely the messenger”, weren't hilarious, it would be sickening....he fights you, then he uses yr argument to defend himself...f'g hell...
DT
Oct 28th, 2018 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Incidentally the source article is from Jacobin not Slate
Bolsonaro’s Most Dangerous Supporters
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/10/bolsonaro-military-pt-haiti-lava-jato-lula
The writer I assume is competent in Portuguese, and even he was mislead.
Aldo Cordeiro Sauda is a journalist and PSOL activist who covered the Arab Spring for Estado de São Paulo and Folha de São Paulo, and is currently a masters candidate in political science at the University of Campinas (UNICAMP).
@JB
Oct 28th, 2018 - 01:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nah, your military regime wasn't anywhere close to Hitler, or even as bad as the one next door in Argentina, but they did restrict civil liberties and opposition parties vastly more than any elected government. Maybe it didn't affect you personally, but you said neither did whatever the left did.
Can you link to something about this education on transsexuals, please? Six seems awfully young, and I'd like to know what they were actually teaching. I'd still rather put up with that than people like Bolsonaro who think they're so fucking superior and want to tell everyone else how to live.
As for the Europe, the ordinary right is one thing, and in power in many countries, including the UK, but the last time the far-right was big in Europe was Hitler. No one who saw that ever wanted to try it again, but the people who remember WWII have mostly died now, hence the danger of making the same mistakes again.
Re the Arab Spring, let's suppose you're right. That just means democracies and dictatorships are vulnerable to different things, which kind of makes sense. Seems pretty clear that democracy is better in general, anyway.
You said there's lots of Muslims living in Brazil, do you know any? What do they think of the terrorism in other countries? And is there less racism there?
I knew Brazil fought in WWII, though not exactly what they did. But Mourão and Bolsonaro weren't even born then, did they ever fight anyone for real?
*You* didn't vote for Lula in 2002, and there must have been plenty of options in the first round even if Bolso was totally opposed to FHC. I'm beginning to wonder how much difference there really is between the right and the left in Brazil; your politics makes no sense.
@TH
I wondered why the hell you were talking about Slate. Jacobin is a very partisan source, and I wouldn't trust it without confirmation, but don't blame the journalist for your mistake; he didn’t even reference the sentence you quoted.
DT
Oct 28th, 2018 - 03:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0“but don't blame the journalist for your mistake” I'm only following the only source material available, while the mistake initiated with him and he's a Brazilian. There is only so much material on hand, the only importance of the source, is do they provide links, and are they truthful.
@TH
Oct 28th, 2018 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the only source material available”
The fact that no other sources claim Mourão served in Haiti should be your clue the original article was incorrect. If you'd looked for evidence with an open mind instead of seeking confirmation and ignoring anything that might contradict you, you'd have realised this.
@JB
“Using my name in vain”, heh. Google translate is very useful but I don't expect it to be 100% reliable, sometimes it mangles stuff so badly I just have no idea, and it's no use for judging the connotations of words.
“most of the freed slaves did not show any inclination to want to stay and work the land”
Presumably staying would mean continuing to work the land of their former owner for very low wages, not getting a farm of their own? But I though you said people started coming from the countryside to the cities in large numbers in the 50s? O was that just São Paulo?
“The current oligarchs in the N & NE were formed in the late 50s, 60s, when the federal government established two State-cos, SUDAM and SUDENE, to develop the N & NE”
Right, okay, so it was modern corruption that let them build so much power, not ancient favours. And the N and NE have a lot more weight in congress compared to SP state, which doesn't seem like a good thing when they're so backwards.
RE B, I still think it's downright weird a far right party would support Ciro and Lula. Did he actually use to be a socialist?
DT
Oct 28th, 2018 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The fact that no other sources claim Mourão served in Haiti ...” What an absurdity, I have the printed the words from a publishing, and your telling me to further qualify their research. Go fly the proverbial kite you idiot, when you can figure out which was the original posting.
“so Sauda had nothing to do with it.,”. You continue to misstate the evidence, so that makes you liar. I'm only following the only source material available, while the mistake initiated with one of the authors and one is a a Brazilian.
“Haiti, Mourão, together with General Augusto Heleno, were Brazil’s top military commanders in its disastrous intervention in Haiti.”
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/10/bolsonaro-military-pt-haiti-lava-jato-lula
Do you have trouble tying your shoelaces? What you're referring to is my attempt, after the fact to find the possible source material for original article, of which it may or may not been.
““The fact that no other sources claim Mourão served in Haiti ...” What an absurdity”
Oct 28th, 2018 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, it's the truth, something you're not too familiar with. A journalist made an error in an article, you already admitted it above when you said the mistake originated with him. Any more arguing is pointless.
DT
Oct 28th, 2018 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“already admitted it above” After the fact. The secondary Brazilian material indicates where and why it was in error. If you examine that material there's either ambiguity that stems from THAT journalist or the general that it's accredited too.
So the penny has dropped, and you now acknowledge that Sauda wrote what I said he did.
Its only you playing fast and loose with the truth, by denying on this site, the information oriented with Sauda.
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