Uribe files complaint against Chavez before International Criminal Court

Forgetit87

A word: I haven't seen A WORD at this website about a graveyard recently discovered graveyard at La Macarena, Colombia. At this graveyard there are anything from 400 to 2,000 unidentified corpses. Who made the graveyard isn't yet known, but it's possible that the army has something to do with it, for the graveyard is strongly reminiscent of the 'false positives' scandal. There's suspicion that Uribe is now coming forward with these FARC accusations against Venezuela in order to divert domestic and international opinion from the graveyard - and international media seem to be collaborating with him. Only some Latin American leftist news websites and blogs have discussed the matter in some length. Isn't that important enough to be reported-and investigated-by conglomerate media?

Aug 07th, 2010 - 03:17 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

1 Forgetit87 and your populist buddies:

Take your blinders off and see the light. Mr. Chavez is a criminal and dictator, like his mentor Fidel Castro, like Joseph Stalin, like Adolph Hitler, etc:

“Out-going Colombian President Álvaro Uribe filed a complaint before the International Criminal Court in Rome against Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez for crimes against humanity that derive from the alleged harbouring of Colombian guerrilla fighters in Venezuelan soil, Uribe's lawyer, Jaime Granados, informed”.

Aug 07th, 2010 - 03:47 pm - Link - 0

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katraskin II

1-Forgetit87: that's bull shit!

Aug 07th, 2010 - 04:25 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

2 Liberty
You never fail to make me laugh, and I mean that in the friendliest way. :)

3 katraskin II
Go google “Colombia” and “La Macarenha”. Colombia e-magazine www.semana.com has something on the matter as well.

Aug 07th, 2010 - 05:17 pm - Link - 0

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Johnish

Masterful play by the Uribe Santos team ably aided and abetted by Lula and Kirchner. Now Chavez is tripping over himself wanting Santos to please be my friend. Yes, he is a wanna-be dictator somewhat reminiscent of Castro, Stalin and Hitler but he lacks the brains. He is a (sometimes funny) fool, cunning like a dog, ruder than a pig, and looking more stupid each time he opens his mouth, which is often. He will find the International Criminal Court no laughing matter.

His days are numbered.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 02:38 am - Link - 0

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Liberty

4 Forgetit87:
So my thoughts and quotes make you “laugh”. It is not difficult to understand your form of rationalizing. One of your idols, “gorilla Chavez” is “trying to turn then page”. He was caught, called ALL his servants to help him out of the mess he got himself in. I posted some quotes from MercoPress. Santos educated in the USA and the mastermind of the Ecuador’s rescue. He knows “death is coming and hell just behind”; better dress like Simon Bolivar, he likes to play in dreams and reality.

“Santos belongs to a patrician family linked to politics: he started as a journalist, studied at Kansas and Harvard universities…“I am prepared to turn the page completely and look to the future with hope,” Chávez said in a speech carried live on TV. The populist leader, who had a stormy relationship with Santos”

Aug 08th, 2010 - 01:10 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

@Johnnish
It's in Colombia's interest to resume ties with Venezuela. It was with Venezuela that Colombia had its greatest surplus, something the country lost due to its former president's eagerness to appease the US by confronting Venezuela. And to say that Chávez modeled himself after Stálin or Hitler is ridiculous. Has Venezuela emprisoned political dissidents? Has it committed genocide within its borders? Has it discriminated against Jews? Has it invaded a neighboring country in order to build an empire? Chávez's done nothing of that so far. There's no reason to put Chávez side-by-side with those dictators, even if one can argue Chávez has an authoritarian streak.

@Liberty,
You still make me laugh. :)

Aug 08th, 2010 - 02:36 pm - Link - 0

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Think

Hear... Hear...
Specialy this one from Liberty:

“Santos educated in the USA and the mastermind of the Ecuador’s rescue. He knows “death is coming and hell just behind”; better dress like Simon Bolivar, he likes to play in dreams and reality. ”

I do not know what he is drinking but it must be strong!
:-))))))))))

Aug 08th, 2010 - 02:41 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

7 Forgetit87 & Twinky:
“Has it committed genocide within its borders? Has it discriminated against Jews? Has it invaded a neighboring country in order to build an empire? Chávez's done nothing of that so far”.

NO, he just harbors TERRORISTS:

“Uribe was friendly with Chavez for many years hoping that he would help, and at every turn he took, Chavez stabbed him.
Under no condition, under no circumstance shall Venezuela harbor the FARC and the ELN, nor any other insurgent group that kills and kidnaps Colombians.
Yesterday the world saw vivid proof that Chavez is harboring terrorists, 1,500 of them, and the Colombian Government was only asking for an international commission to visit the area within 30 days. Chavez´ reaction: severing relations with Colombia.
This is not about Uribe or Santos, this is about Colombia trying to get rid of a bunch of terrorists and Chavez supporting them”.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 03:15 pm - Link - 0

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Think

Que?

“Santos educated in the USA and the mastermind of the Ecuador’s rescue. He knows “death is coming and hell just behind”; better dress like Simon Bolivar, he likes to play in dreams and reality. ”

Translation please!

Aug 08th, 2010 - 03:55 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

Hahahaha

Aug 08th, 2010 - 04:19 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

Twinky and your “twin” the ghost of 87:

I just quoted from the web, so you can take it or leave it. Really, you’re 2 “twinkies”.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 04:47 pm - Link - 0

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Think

Link pleeeeease?

Aug 08th, 2010 - 06:03 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

I've googled that quote and I've not found it anywhere!

Aug 08th, 2010 - 06:15 pm - Link - 0

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Think

Not even close!.........
:-)))

Aug 08th, 2010 - 06:34 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

Twinky & Company:

Read here:

“Santos belongs to a patrician family linked to politics: he started as a journalist, studied at Kansas and Harvard universities and has been a member of the ministerial cabinet of several administrations, the last of which with Uribe in Defence. He is regarded as the political heir of the popular former president”.

http://en.mercopress.com/2010/08/07/santos-called-for-understanding-in-spite-of-ideological-differences

Aug 08th, 2010 - 06:53 pm - Link - 0

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Think

Yeahh..... yeahh........ he is a real American Hillbilly from Kansas...... that is easy to understand.....What we don’t understand is:
“Santos educated in the USA and the mastermind of the Ecuador’s rescue. He knows “death is coming and hell just behind”; better dress like Simon Bolivar, he likes to play in dreams and reality. ”

Translation please...........

Aug 08th, 2010 - 07:06 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

So what is that supposed to mean, Liberty? That he studied in the US, well, whatever. That's no proof that he's... well, I don't know what you're trying to say about him with these quotes. But I know that having a good formal education is no guarantee that one will be a good leader. But I wish Santos luck and it seems he'll be more democratic minded than Uribe. Previous Brazilian president Cardoso was educated in Sorbonne (he even teached there, I believe), and he was one of worst president the country had.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 07:20 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

18 Forgetit87 & Twinky:

Ok, now do you believe me?...Santos is educated in the US and regarding you “twinkie” here goes the quote that Santos masterminded the Ecuador rescue:

“In July 2008, he oversaw “Operation Check” where military intelligence operatives, disguised as international aid workers, duped the FARC into turning over some of their most valuable hostages, including former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt and three American contractors .It was wily and bloodless and made Santos the man of the hour. France's Le Figaro newspaper called the operation ”stronger than all of James Bonds' put together.''

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/29/1655235_p3/colombia-candidates-ones-cheeky.html

Eat the news “populist twinkies”!!

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:06 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

I've never doubted that Santos was US educated. I just don't understand why should one bring that out. Does that prove something about Santos, whether positive or negative? I don't think so.

And that he “masterminded” “Ecuador's rescue” (??), I already knew as well. Think probably did too. Rafael Correa, as a result of the action - an action which violated his country's territorial integrity - even issued a decree which declared Santos a persona non grata within Ecuador. He would later withdraw the decree when Uribe recognized his mistakes and offered “non conditional apologies” to Correa and Ecuador.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:28 pm - Link - 0

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Think

(19) Liberty

You are mixing your Incidents like your mix your drinks and your medication.....
The Betancourt Rescue has nothing to do with the Ecuador Incident....
The attack on Ecuador was a separate Incident.....
Like the wars in Korea and Vietnam you know?
Different Wars....

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:31 pm - Link - 0

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Liberty

Twinkies, you 2 never are going to admit you’re in “left field”, like you don't understand my yankees expressions. Forget it !!!

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:44 pm - Link - 0

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harrier61

You can't expect Twinky to understand history. He's an immigrant.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:48 pm - Link - 0

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Think

(22) Liberty

Comments must be in English. Thank you.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 08:57 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

@Liberty,
Decide already: are you an yankee or a Latino?

Aug 08th, 2010 - 09:00 pm - Link - 0

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Johnish

@Forgetit87
It’s also in Colombia’s best interests to diversify their exports, as they are doing, rather than rely on a neighbor whose administration is fiscally incompetent. I did not say Chavez modeled himself on Stalin or Hitler but that he is ‘reminiscent’ of Castro, Stalin and Hitler. The word reminiscent means ‘reminds me of’ which is quite another thing. I am certainly not putting him side-by-side with those dictators, he is way too stupid, lacks the intelligence of those three by a country mile. The reason the world at large has not responded to his behavior as if he was a Castro, Stalin or a Hitler is that he is broadly perceived as a joke, not really a threat, that he is rapidly becoming his own worst enemy, that he is in fact a loud-mouth idiotic gutless wonder, a somewhat competent stand-up comic, and that left to his own devices he will self-destruct, as he is clearly doing.
Trouble is he is taking Venezuela down with him.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 09:01 pm - Link - 0

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Think

(26) Johnish
That was quite a loooooong explanation of why he has not modeled himself as... but is reminiscent of .... because he is broadly perceived as........

Do yourself a favor next time just say : I do not like Hugo.... It's easier:-)

By the way, many of us in South America like him....
Are you angry now?

Aug 08th, 2010 - 09:16 pm - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

@Johnnish,
It's in every countries' interests to diversify their trades relations. It's not in a country's interests to have a neighboring nation to suddenly suspend their trade ties, and this specially when its greatest trade surplus is derived from commerce with such country. Uribe's decision to push Venezuela to that point wasn't a smart one in business terms, period.

Again I ask you: if Chavez hasn't done any of the things which have made Stalin and Hitler noteworthy in historical terms - something you don't seem to be disputing - then why is Chavez reminiscent of them? As I see it, the “reminiscent” term, as you used it, is devoid of meaning. As for your words on Chavez, I don't dispute them entirely. I wouldn't like to have him as a president either. As I see it, he uses fearmongering related to external threats - threats that are not entirely implausible - to impose social cohesion in his country. I do have issues, however, with people labelling him a dictator. As I said, he has a power grabbing streak. But of the other things that a dictator does - suspending dissidents' political rights or emprisoning them, censoring critical media outlets - he has so far stayed clear. He's demonized in international media, and mostly unfairly so. Something similar happened with a president of my country, João Goulart: he was overthrown by a coup d'état - as Chavez almost was in 2002 - due to accusations, unfounded accusations, that he was turning Brazil a socialist dictatorship. The media, both national and international, hailed Goulart's fall as having curtailed an evil socialist dictatorship from reaching power. But then, what replaced Goulart? A violent anti-socialist dictatorship that ruled the country for 20 years with the approval of the US and IMF. And similarly, the White House haild the 2002 coup and IMF immediately stepped in to guarantee the coupists they would have financial assistence from the IMF. Things just don't change.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 09:43 pm - Link - 0

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Johnish

@ Think(27)
No Think, I’m not angry, just a little disappointed that you misread my post. My perception is it you, Think, that is angry. Might I suggest you think again, but read carefully first. Where on earth did I say I ‘do not like Hugo’? How can one dislike such a clown? No, what I dislike is what he is doing to Venezuela, and I’m not alone, I believe. May I suggest you do yourself, and the readers of this space, a favor by engaging with the text rather than trying to put words in my mouth. It may not be easier but it might more befit your name. If you have an attention span problem then that’s unfortunate but let’s not let that get in the way of a useful discussion.

Aug 08th, 2010 - 10:59 pm - Link - 0

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Think

29 Jonish
Another loooong explanation.....
Ok I will read it carefully as you as me to......

You say: “Where on earth did I say I ‘do not like Hugo’?”
So you like Hugo then???

You Say: “How can one dislike such a clown?”
So you like Hugo then!!!

You say: “ What I dislike is what he is doing to Venezuela”
Why do you like Hugo then? Is it because he reminds you of other people you like like Castro, Stalin and Hitler?

Wouldn't it be easy if you tried to talk like Johnish and not like Glenn Beck?

Aug 09th, 2010 - 04:24 am - Link - 0

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Johnish

(28) Forgetit87
Thanks for your detailed post, most interesting. I agree that Uribe pushing to the point that Chavez took the extreme action that he did was damaging to Colombia but in the context of Uribe’s overall strategy as we see it playing out so successfully as we speak I kind of now understand the game plan. Could it have been done without disrupting trade as it did? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know, but it is indeed regrettable that people, especially people near the border, got caught up in this and suffered as they did, and still do. Not sure Uribe is the only one at fault. Takes two to tango, and Chavez was the clumsy footed dancing partner. In return for the suitcase full of cash Christina should show Chavez a step or two, but then perhaps her rhythm and grace, lack thereof, disqualifies her in that department.
In answer to your question about reminiscent as in what is it about Chavez that ‘somewhat’ (that’s an important word I used too) reminds me of the three aforementioned dictators it is, as you noted, his authoritarian predisposition, and his blatant determination to rule forever. But please, no way would I historicise Chavez as another brutal dictator in the Castro, Stalin, Hitler mold, not yet at least. Let me remind you that I was not the one to first posit the Chavez Castro Stalin Hitler connection but was commenting within the context of the previous posts. However, I stand by my previous comment that Chavez does remind me somewhat of the infamous three but I would not make a big deal out of it. I see him as ignorant, deluded, out-to-lunch with all the Bolivar nonsense rather than seriously evil per se. I will admit to a bias, that being a total aversion, having a painful allergic reaction, to military dictators, the military model as a way to run anything other than the military. I see Chavez as a wanna-be dictator of the military genre but relatively harmless in the long run. And the good news is that he is a constant reminder to the re

Aug 09th, 2010 - 05:35 am - Link - 0

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harrier61

@28 Forgetit
“In 2008, Human Rights Watch released a report reviewing Chavez's human rights record over his first decade in power. The report praises Chavez's 1999 amendments to the constitution which significantly expanded human rights guarantees, but notes a ”wide range of government policies that have undercut the human rights protections established“ by the revised constitution. In particular, the report accuses Chavez and his administration of engaging in discrimination on political grounds, eroding the independence of the judiciary, and of engaging in ”policies that have undercut journalists' freedom of expression, workers' freedom of association, and civil society's ability to promote human rights in Venezuela.“
”Freedom House lists Venezuela's press as being “Not Free” in its 2009 Map of Press Freedom.”

Would you care to comment?

Aug 09th, 2010 - 08:42 am - Link - 0

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Johnish

OK, ill try to keep it shorter, Think. (28) @forgetit 87

And the good news is that he is a constant reminder to the rest of the world how hopeless extreme left-wing communist ideology is when it comes to running a country, or anything more complicated than Venezuelan war games or perhaps a knitting circle, no disrespect intended to the knitter people.

My biggest problem with Chavez is his sheer incompetence when it comes to running a country. On a personal level while sometimes he makes me laugh if we shared the same washroom, so to speak, I would probably find him too rude, too crude, too foul mouthed and cowardly to want to hang out with. He is probably not my cup of tea, but that’s just me. And really, whether I like him or dislike him on a personal level (and the truth is I don’t know) is quite beside the point, and has no useful bearing on this discussion. That’s where Think gets it all wrong wanting to interpret, to reduce, my comments, to a simple personal level as in ‘I simply don’t like the fellow’ and to quote Think ‘... many of us in South America like him.....’ Well, indeed. So what! It is equally true, probably, to say that many people in South America dislike him. Liking or disliking him and leaving it at that is hardly the stuff of enlightening discussions.

It’s his leadership, or lack thereof, that is my concern. Venezuela under his leadership is going to hell in a handbasket; that’s the problem. His style, obvious bad taste in most everything is rather incidental as is his clownish behaviour. His perpetual war talk, glamorizing violence, is annoying even if it’s all bluster, huffing and puffing, and sets a bad example for the Venezuelans, particularly the young up and coming folks lacking in a good education who tend to blindly look up to their leader for inspiration.

Again, thanks for contextualizing your comments, most helpful and interesting. Cheers

Aug 09th, 2010 - 09:10 am - Link - 0

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Think

(33) Jonish
A lot of ethnocentric FOX gibberish again and again and again..........
You say:
”It’s his leadership, or lack thereof, that is my concern. Venezuela under his leadership is going to hell in a hand-basket; that’s the problem. ”
And then you continue:
His style, obvious bad taste in most everything is rather incidental as is his clownish behaviour. His perpetual war talk, glamorizing violence, is annoying even if it’s all bluster, huffing and puffing, and sets a bad example for the Venezuelans, particularly the young up and coming folks lacking in a good education who tend to blindly look up to their leader for inspiration.
And then, some more:
”If we shared the same washroom, so to speak, I would probably find him too rude, too crude, too foul mouthed and cowardly to want to hang out with.”

We know exactly the type of South American leaders you Foxamericans like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldo_Galtieri

“In March 1981, Galtieri visited the United States and was warmly received, as the Reagan administration viewed the regime as a bulwark against communism.
National Security Advisor Richard V. Allen described him as a “majestic general.” An adherent to the Cold War-era doctrine of “ideological frontiers,” Galtieri secured his country's support for the Contras ,sending advisers to help organize the Nicaraguan Democratic Force,. Argentine support became the principal source of funds and training for the Contras during Galtieri's tenure.”

No thank’s mate.... Been there....done that.....

Aug 09th, 2010 - 09:39 am - Link - 0

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Forgetit87

@harrier61, Johnnish
I need to say this: I'm not a specialist on Venezuela's political life. So I might be wrong when I say that I've never heard of political persecution or human rights violations in Venezuela. I do think, however, that the lack of such news is noteworthy when one considers how the media, both South American and global, is willing to malign that country's government. On censoring of the media, for instance: Chavez's gained a bad reputation when it comes to respect for press freedom. But I've known of only one case where it can be argued that he's censored a critical media outlet. It was in 2007, when he refused to renew RCTV's public license. There was continent-wide outcry for Chavez to respect press freedom. Media channels in South American countries sided with their Venezuelan colleague. Some in the Brazilian Congress even told Chavez that, if Venezuela is to join Mercosur, he would better respect press freedom. But there was one thing nobody had looked report: Chavez's intention in “closing” RCTV. In 2002 RCTV had given positive coverage for that year's coup. Some of its owners were also said -I don't know if this has been proven- to have collaborated with the coupists. Chavez was correct in refusing to renew RCTV's license. TV stations are not above the law. When it reaches out to coup mongers, something that can be considered high treason, the state should retaliate the way the law sees fit. And considering that it took 5 years for Chavez to “close” RCTV, it can be argued that, at least in this case, he behaved with remarkable restraint. And let's not forget about Uribe: he also has a history of conflict with the Judiciary (and the Congress!). He's also persecuted journalists and judges. And he himself has closed media outlets: Cambio magazine for instance.
On HRW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch#Venezuela
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch#Venezuela

Aug 09th, 2010 - 06:19 pm - Link - 0

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harrier61

Nevertheless, get him in front of the court, then lock him up and throw away the key!

Aug 13th, 2010 - 03:09 pm - Link - 0

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