MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
A review of Third World United States: the Argentina connection
United States online publication The Huffington Post published Tuesday an article whose title caught the attention of those in the Southern cone: “Becoming Argentina: A Review of Third World America.” Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules“ The Argentina connection comes to stage when Talbott explains that economies cannot grow and develop broadly ”unless economic opportunity is open to all,“ and underlines that in most third world countries, their democracies ”cannot control the oligarchs that so control their governments so the governments cannot stop high level corruption and create a level playing field for all economic participants.”
Sep 08th, 2010 - 05:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks for the news!!!
We are trying to control our oligarchs.....but they are not giving up without a fight :-)
Kirchners for 20112-2015
Where Talbott missed the point is that all he says is also perfectly applicable to Germany, England, France, Italy, Spain, Japan, Australia, etc.
Sep 08th, 2010 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0The crisis is global.
Pocho for the world, globalize peronism for a better world.
Sep 08th, 2010 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yeap, a better world of corruption, robbery, big pocket money for the presidents, etc, etc.
Sep 08th, 2010 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don´t cry for you, Argentina...just change for better future....
R.I.P. the whole world if it apply for it...
Sergio, how are your bussiness going with the islanders?
Sep 08th, 2010 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0American economists will continue making Argentina the epitome of the worse economic policies in the world.
Sep 08th, 2010 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Until Argentina pays the last cent and come backs to their bank as a “good” client.
I agree absolutly on the words of mr talbott, in our case, i dont deny that maybe cristina is a corrupt, arrogant, whatever, but no one can deny neather that she is the only one argentine authority who made front to the powerfull corporations that are the true owners of argentina.
Sep 08th, 2010 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When she toke office in 2007, she knew that in order to execute her plan, she ned money, she had two alternatives to get it, she could search funds in the international markets, and would pay hight rates, or she could put her hand in the pocket of those powerfull corporations, she decided to increase the taxes to soya's exports, and she had a terrible conflict with the agrarian corporations, after she nationalized the private pensions sistem, and she had to make front again to the terrible lobby of clarin, even in the low camera many of our shamefull politicians supported clarin, in order to paralize the purpose of the government.
This is why notwithstanding i reject many aspects cristina's government, i can't deny that she is a brave woman, i hope that next presidents are as brave as her.
@José
Sep 08th, 2010 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, and the interesting thing is that Argentina went bankrupt by following precisely the steps adviced by those First Worlder economists.
Argentina did not go broke by following First World economics. It went broke because of corruption in the government. The corruption in Argentina is not with “oligarchies” but with a very corrupt government headed by a former terrorist (she was a member of the
Sep 08th, 2010 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0monteneros, the communist terrorists of the 70's as was her husband and former president Nestor. Her election was illegally funded by Chavez of Venezuela. Multiple suitcases of money were sent to Argentina and one of them was confiscated at the airport with eight (8) millions dollars illegally donated to Christina by Chavez. She has said that a member of the Oligarch is anyone with 100 hectares (247 acres) of land and a four wheel drive truck, this in a country where ALL the country roads are dirt and mud when it rains. As for Argentina not paying its debts, you try not paying your debts and see where it gets you. The debts were incurred by a legally elected government and therefore are legally payable.
(9) Jon
Sep 09th, 2010 - 01:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0When grossly exagerating, don't do it too easy for the others to find out about it......
You end looking silly..............
Do you know how much eigtht (8) million dollars weight?
About 85 Kgs !!!
Do you know the volume of eigth (8)t million dollars?
1,5 square meters !!!
Some suitcase.....
No wonder they stopped it at the airport.....
Nobody could lift it :-)
http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/rr2748.htm
I stand corrected, it was $800,000.00.
Sep 09th, 2010 - 03:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Go to this website for the newspaper La Nacion. In Spanish
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=933887
(11) Jon
Sep 09th, 2010 - 07:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0That was the easy one……
Argentina went bankrupt in 2001 because the ”Finance Oligarchy” of Carlos Menem thrived in high level corruption and didn’t want to create a level playing field for all economic participants.” (Exactly as the article above explains)
Cristina and Nestor were NEVER members of ”Montoneros” (NOT a communist movement by the way). Not a single shred of evidence has ever been produced on the contrary. If you happen to have one please refer to it…….
You write about “several suitcases” To my knowledge it was only one:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esc%C3%A1ndalo_de_la_valija
Anyhow….., this case has languished in a court of Miami, Florida, USA for three years……..The FBI has not been able to present any evidence…… and the USA ambassador in Argentina has given, in 2008, an apology to the Kirchners for the “unsubstantiated accusations originated from an undisclosed FBI source”………….
At the end you write:
“The debts were incurred by a legally elected government and therefore are legally payable”
That’s not totally right, because a substantial percentage was contracted by “De Facto” governments……
Anyhow, as you write; Argentina went bankrupt in 2001…. Since then, we have renegotiated the terms of payment with the different actors and we are paying back……
Bankruptcy is one of the basics of Capitalism.
It’s all too easy to be “Capitalist” when taking profits but “socialist” when sharing losses.
That’s not the way the cookie crumbles, mate……
The debt that Christina defaulted on was incurred by elected governments not by de facto governments.
Sep 09th, 2010 - 08:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Bankruptcy is a basic tenet of ANY economy, when the plan goes awry,
go bankrupt. Its called “cutting your loses”, repositioning, reevaluating,
they all mean that someone gets screwed regardless of what you call the particular economic system. The government always get the cookie
The “cookie” is called a tax increase to make up for government's corruption and incompetence.
For starters:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Montoneros
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Montoneros
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Montoneros
(13) Jon
Sep 09th, 2010 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0I can infer that you are not Argentinean or South-American...
I can see that you are not interested in knowing anything about Argentina… You “think” you already know everything…
I can understand that you are not here to debate, but just to express your personal opinion.
Be my guest……………
Your 3 “For starters” links to demonstrate that the “Montoneros” movement was/is Communistic are quite pathetic… One is even from some Colombian organization….
Long ago I decided not to spill my time wit “Turnips” in here and you certainly fit in that category.
Have a nice life…
Think
JON.
Sep 09th, 2010 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are right when you say that argentina went to bankrupt because it had corrupt governments since many years ago, however you omit that those governments were submited to the caprices of diferent corporations that are the true owners of argentina.
In the case of cristina fernandez de kirchner, i dont deny tahat she is a corrupt, arrogant, or whatever, but i must recognize like me or not, that she was the only one presidential authority who made front and keeps on doing it, to all those powerfull corporations wich had always interfered in the decitions of every president, includind interfered strongly during nestor kirchner's administration, but now the scenario changed, cristina does not want clarin to keep on interfering in her plans, this is why she toke actions now on papel prensa etc etc.
Regarding the fact that the k were monotoneros, that's irrelevant, in fact some members of her cabinet and diferent diputys too, were montoneros, and were in prison.
I do wish people would stop using the term third world as a derogative term for a poor nation, it shows a real lack of understanding of the outside world.
Sep 09th, 2010 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Think, sorry for the delay, some intense days preparing the fields for the spring and summer cultures...the same oligarch farmer as ever!
Sep 09th, 2010 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I enjoyed a lot this part of your message:
”We are trying to control our oligarchs.....but they are not giving up without a fight :-) =>Kirchners for 20112-2015”
Oligarks from the Kingdom of Kalafate!
Ay ay ay Mr. Pheel
Sep 09th, 2010 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are not an “Oligarch”!..... Iu ar a jard uorkin paisano!
Anyhow....... That word would not have been my first choice ....it was reciclated from the article but....... oligarchs are as witches you know?.... I don't believe in them........ pero que los hay....los hay.
Agree, “los hay”, but oligarchy in our country changes of subject all the time.
Sep 09th, 2010 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Undoubtely, real oligarchs of today could be Cáarlo, Hugo, Daniel, Eduardo, Néstor...a lot of illegal-not-declared money and “production means” obtained against the people, network for keeping unharmed on power and a love for subtle tactics and deceiving the country.
Old photos and nice surnames only for the “gilada”.
Agree.............49%
Sep 09th, 2010 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok, the list is incomplete: Lázaro, Cristóbal, Rudy, Echegaray, Jaimito, etc. And the lot who has bought in the Puerto Madero Area. And the governor K with his daughter´s party at the Tattersall when the tobas die by hunger.
Sep 10th, 2010 - 01:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0If they steal, influence, conspirate, deceive, spend like a Batista, they are not Fidel.
Unless all it´s a media conspiration...that should be a useful sedative.
An understandable (and shared) rage against corruption but……… don’t let it obfuscate your vision of reality and push you to …..what?
Sep 10th, 2010 - 07:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0What’s the alternative?
A new version of the Proceso de Reorganizacion Nacional?
A new version of Menem and la Patria de Pizza y Champán?
A new version of Del La Rua; ““(our)”” “serious” “educated” “decent” man?
No miracle cure against corruption…….None…Null….Rien…
Only slow, constant corrective measures and conscientization of one’s society against it.
Corruption is a “squid” that lives in all waters…………
I remember clearly an English friend in the 80’s commented highly about a new “ bright, decent and humble” socialist chap that really knew how to lead.
His name was Tony Blair……
His personal fortune today is estimated at 50 million £.
His political achievements are on record………………
Good resemblance of Ol´Tony.
Sep 10th, 2010 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My point was: who are oligarchy?
Who are organized as a gang for stealing the country´s wealth?
Nobody will vote “new versions” of what you mention.
It´s a democratic right to insist searching for improvement: that´s the virtue of the system.
And alternance difficults corruption worldwide.
But you insist in Kks 2011-2015. Is the tree hiding the woods?
(23) Pheel
Sep 10th, 2010 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The evolution of the classical Argentinean monoligachy into a pluroligarchy has blurred things a tad……. In the good old days, the portación de apellido was enough for a positive identification.
Nowadays you have to invest at least 10 minutes socializing with the susodicho to sense his affiliation…..
Most of the best functioning democracies in this planet have “alternancies” periods of 10-12 years and they respect most of the work and achievements of their predecessors.
Do we have such an alternative in Argentina at the moment?
Maybe we do……….But I honestly can’t see it.
The two algarrobos in front of me are tall and frondosos…… They somehow obscure the view…. They do indeed have a lot of parasites under their bark but they still produce buena sombra and a lot of vainas for the vaquitas…………..
(Excuse the Acasusso English….. Just in that mood…………….)
For Think, the friendly turnip:
Sep 10th, 2010 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I an not Argentine or South American, but, I am a permanent resident of Argentina, a country that I love as much as my own. It distresses me
that Argentines always want to put blame for there problems on someone or something else then themselves. The culprit today is large corporations, with out which Argentina or any other country would be living in the dark ages. Small businesses do not manufacture cars or electronics or any of the things that make life easier. Argentines believe that the government is all knowing and if they just elect the right person the government will take care of them. They need to grow up politically and assume responsibility for their country by voting not for a ”freebe from the government but, for a government that may make decisions that initially will be unpleasant, but that in the long run will make the country what it can be. One of the greatest countrys in the world.
As for the reference to the Colombians, if you had read it, it stated that the Colombian Communists used the Montoneros as an example.
lets blame Argentina for everything that IMF does wrong, “NOT”!!!
Sep 10th, 2010 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0people in here should read “IMF four steps to damnation” I think IMF should expropiate whatever the governments bought with the loans and leave the victim tax payers alone, I wouldn't pay the IMF pirats a single cent given to corrupt politicians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/apr/29/business.mbas
You shouldn't think, avargas. it clearly isn't you strong point. I found everyone elses view intresting.
Sep 10th, 2010 - 06:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0JON.
Sep 10th, 2010 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have an answer for you in comment number 15, youll find the answers to what destresses you.
To Axel Arg:
Sep 11th, 2010 - 08:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yout statement:
“Regarding the fact that the k were monotoneros, that's irrelevant, in fact some members of her cabinet and diferent diputys too, were montoneros, and were in prison.” Does the leopard change its spots? Have all these people set aside their socialist-communist ideals?
I doubt it.
Remember, socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money.
”An oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία, oligarkhía) is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small segment of society distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, or military control. ”
Sep 11th, 2010 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So that explains Argentina. The government is the oligarchy.
For axel arg and think: go to this web site and see what a wonderful job
Sep 13th, 2010 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Christina is doing for Argentina.
http://www.slideshare.net/frankyleonard/chaco-peor-que-haiti
JON:
Sep 13th, 2010 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know perfectly what is the situation of the tobas, and all the rest of indigenous populations, any government did nothing for them, in fact te abuses against them still continue, but this is not new, it started since 1880 during roca's campain, wich decimated indigenous people in patagonia, and stole their lands, to give them to oligarchs like martinez de hoz and others.
But regarding the kirchner administrations,there are some aspects that i reject of the kirchner, but like me or not, i must recognize that there are also many achievements to celebrate.
On the other hand, if you live in this country, you can see that most oponent politicians are even 100 worst than the kirchner, only ricardo alfonsin is a serious referent, i hope he wins, i will vote him, but in case that he is not elected as our president, then i really hope that nestor wins again, there is not any other good alternative, most group a, are just mediocre menemist who broke the country more than once, and i dont want to go back to that shit.
Axel Arg,
Sep 14th, 2010 - 08:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0I understand your desire for someone responsible to lead the country.
But any President that will spend 6,000 million pesos for football while
people are starving is beyond redemption. Please, open your eyes to where the Kirchners are leading the country. I truly believe that they want to establish a dictatorship like Chavez. Their meddling in agriculture, the media, their tacit support of Moyano as he tries to usurp
control over all the unions can only lead to more poverty and discontent. A country is like a business, it must be run to be profitable, i.e. if industry cannot function and make a profit, then no one can make a living. A country is the same, it must be run efficiently, not wasting money on football when people are starving or taking all the profit from the farmers.
By the way, the video about the Tobas was not completely honest, the picture of the baby sitting beside the pan was actually from Africa.
It just proves that old saying, believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see.
saludos
JON:
Sep 15th, 2010 - 03:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I respect your opinion, but i dont agree in absolut on most you say.
Regarding the football, maybe you are right, and that money should be used to take improve te situation of poor people.
About the soposed environment of dictatorship that the kirchner would be creating, i think you have no idea about what you are saying, i dont know where are you from, but liberalism in this country didn't work in absolut, just remember the neoliberal state of menem's administration, where there was no any control by the state, and enterprizes did whatever they want, you must understand that the liberalism of the usa, or europe, is not the same that was applyed in this country, if we would have serious referent of economic liberalism, maybe most people would vote him, however all the libaral leaders that we have, are fervent admirers of menem's policys, and i already told you that we dont want to go back to that shit.
On the other hand, i dont think that a country is like an enterprize, you can't compare a country with a factory of matress, handling a nation is 1000 times more complicated than handling a powerfull corporation.
Beside answer me couple of questions, what kind dictatorship would allow the concentration of pickets in the city very often?, what kind of dictatorship would allow a blockade of an international bridge like in gualeguaychu?, what kind of dictatorship would derogate the pardoms for the torturers of last true dictatorship?, what kind of dictatorship would keep on sanding bills to the congress even now that the gov. has a minority on both chambers?.
I can understabd that you dont like the kirchner, even i reject many aspects fo their administrations, but what we can't do, is to say crap, finally i want to tell you that if in this country, the state does not interfere, enterprizes would do whatever they want, like in last decade, this is not norway, finland, or switzerland, this is argentina, in this is our reality, like us or not.
Axel,
Sep 16th, 2010 - 05:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Read my post #25 again. Where am I from, I am a permanent resident of Argentina. And have been off and on for 40 years.
As for the Kirchners “supposed” dictatorship, wait five years.
A country is an enterprise because it must learn to manage it money just like a business. A business can not continually borrow money to survive nor can a country. A country cannot keep taxing its people to make up for a lack of business sense. As for the demonstrations, the current government permits it because it works to their advantage, Chavez also allows demonstrations when it suits his purposes. Government must send bills to the congress or else they will be marginalized in the publics eye. Bill Clinton was Democrat and the Congress was republican, he sent bills and they were passed. Because there are two parties does'nt mean that laws will not be passed. Finally, read your post above, what it says is that Argentines are too stupid or too corrupt to have a government like the rest of the world. I think that you are completely wrong in that regard. A free market is exactly that, people are free to do business, the government regulates business but does not interfere to the point of killing it as do the Kirchners.
JON:
Sep 16th, 2010 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like i said before, i respect your opinion, but i dont agree on most you say, i dont think that a contry is an enterprize, because an enterprize only cares about profitability, however when you handle a country, you can see that there are some sectors that are not profitable, their true purpose is the social funtion that they must comply.
For example, aerolineas argentinas is our national airline, it's true funtion, is to keep united such a huge country like this one, it's the only one airline that travels even to those places that are not profitable, it has still deficit, but it diminished more than the half since it was nationalized, and it forescasted that before 2012 it will start to have surplus, this is one of the many reasons that i think that a country is not an enterprize, for that conviction that you have, during last decade it was sold all our national patrimony, even those that were profitable, like aerolineas.
Regarding the bill that are sent to the congress, if the kirchner would be creating an environment of dictatorship, the president would sign only decrees, and would send just a few projetcs, like menem did, hes administration was the one that more decrees singed since 1983, however in spite that it has a minority in both chambers, it keeps on sending bills even those that are so controverted like the papel prensa project, many idiots that day were waiting that the president declares the intervention of that enterprize, or it's nationalization, but nothing of that finally happened, beside both kirchner's administrations were the ones that less decrees singed since 1983.
On the other hand i recomend you to see the documental by osvado bayer, it's called awka liwen, it's in the gaumont cinema, in front of the congress, in that documental you''ll see why it's so important to tax the agrarian sector.
Finally i dont agree that k are killing bussiness, they just regulate them, but that's what bussiness men rejetc.
Axel,
Sep 17th, 2010 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From Wikipedia:
Osvaldo Bayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Osvaldo Bayer (Santa Fe Province, Argentina, 1927) is an Argentine anarcho-communist historian, journalist and film scenarist. ...
Great political philosophy. That is why he advocates taxing farmers,
as a communist he is opposed to private property.
Axel, are you a communist?
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!