MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Obama says Brazil’s transition to democracy an example for the Arab world
President Barack Obama, declaring support for Brazil’s rising global economic clout, said the country’s transition from dictatorship to democracy can serve as a model for pro-democracy movements around the world, including in North Africa and the Middle East. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesBrasil would be model for N.Africa,Middle East ?
Mar 21st, 2011 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0why not !
If Arab countries produce and sell vast grain-food, iron-steel,
automobil,plane..etc then could take Brasil model .
beyond ignorance !
Perhaps Obama once again puts his foot in it.
Mar 21st, 2011 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brasil’s military period arose for unique reasons: high inflation, economic stagnation, and the increasing influence of radical political elements – reasons uniquely different in breadth and depth from the unique reasons of each of the arab states (presently) under ‘dictatorship’.
Mar 21st, 2011 - 04:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brasil's ruling sequence of Generals gradually ran out of steam and ran out of ideas – their background militated against the skills-set needed for managing a developing, heterogeneous sub-continental country.
Gen. Joao Baptista de Oliveira Figueiredo (1979-85), the last of the military leaders of the period of military control of Brasil, permitted the return of politicians exiled or banned from political activity during the 1960s and 1970s and allowed them to run for state and federal offices in 1982.
The transition was as gentle as ever likely, and the amnesty allowed the country to look forward, albeit with backward glances questioning reconciliation.
Luckily, the end of South African apartheid enabled Mandela to set the standard for humanity in these matters (1995-) and, though Dilma would like a one-sided removal of the old amnesty, she is now judged against this higher Mandela-standard.
“As two nations who have struggled over many generations to perfect our own democracies, the United States and Brazil know that the future of the Arab world will be determined by its people” Obama said.
OK, perhaps, but a powerful demagogue/dictator, with control of his army – and who is prepared to use it on his people, frequently takes some shifting.
This was not the Brasilian experience and, luckily, statesmen(-academics) of the standing of FHC/Serra were around to carve out a new political philosophy of governance, social evolution and outward-looking economic development.
So, President Obama – 9/10 for rhetoric; 5/10 for accuracy.
GeofW.
Mar 21st, 2011 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't think the 64 coup had anything to do with presence of radical elements in the Goulart administration. IMO that's a myth used to justify and rally support for the coup. In his economic policies Goulart was no more to the left than Kubitschek. And his foreign policy of rapproachment with the Communist bloc, his predecessor Jânio Quadros, a conservative, had himself initiated it. That Quadros wound up accused of being a Communist shows the extent of McCarthyist paranoia among Brazilian right-wingers of yore. Even the Ernesto Geisel administration was accused of harboring Communists when the military govt favoured the Angolan leftists over rival right-wing militias.
Now, saying of people in military govt that they didn't have the skills needed to administrate the country, is plain ridiculous. Many in the military had worked as ministers or presidents of state-owned companies during civilian governments. Geisel, for instance, had been a Petrobrás president before being the country's president. Costa e Silva's Minister of Industry, General Macedo Soares e Silva, had himself been the president of Companhia Siderúrgica Nacional during the Kubitschek administration. Plus, economic planning had been left entirely to the hands of civilian technocrats: Bulhões, Campos, Delfim Netto, Simonsen, and so forth. And I must say, this team was the most talented and competent Brazil ever had, something that is sufficiently demonstrated in the growth rates and rapid industrialization seen in the period - a more succesful industrialization process that neither the Vargas nor the Kubitschek administrations rivaled. The military were the ones who built the state. The civilians that succeeded them have so far done nothing but to destroy what they had done.
Thanks Forgetit,
Mar 21st, 2011 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0always good to get another take on events.
Certainly I know Kubitschek by reputation.
I am a bit 'clouded' by the speed at which my wife was advised to leave the country. And a quarter of a century on, her take on these historic matters, and her influence on my understanding, inevitably colour my judgement.
Time moves on and these histories have been written and written again. I am pleased that Dilma has moved on also, and is looking forwards, not back.
Geoff.
(5)
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 04:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
“I am a bit 'clouded' by the speed at which my wife was advised to leave the country. And a quarter of a century on, her take on these historic matters, and her influence on my understanding, inevitably color my judgment.”
I say:
You are so right; ….your judgment is colored and clouded…
1) Calling the majority of the Brazilian electorate: “Unwashed and uneducated”……
2) Celebrating the ousting of a democratically elected president in Honduras citing false motives…
3) Suggesting to “take out” other democratically elected leaders in South-America….
Clouded you are indeed……..
But evidently not by your Brazilian wife life experience……….
Just keep buying those US dollars and Treasury Notes, and selling reals on credit.
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 06:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dear Think (#6),
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 10:31 am - Link - Report abuse 01) Calling the majority of the Brazilian electorate: “Unwashed and uneducated”……
Term was coined by the Victorian novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton., 1833.
NB Brazil Lula voters . . . over 75% uneducated by world standards (and, remember the context of the posting - Brasil's crying need for education and infrastructure).
2) Celebrating the ousting of a democratically elected president in Honduras citing false motives…
If a democratically elected president 'goes native' (refers to cultural reversion by esp. European colonizers by being assimilated into the culture and customs of the indigenous peoples).
Zelaya attempts revertion to S.A. demagogy, á la Chavez, and is pushed aside by the democratistas majority.
3) Suggesting to “take out” other democratically elected leaders in South-America . . . . . . . .
Not just South America; there is a seriously good case for taking out Mugabe, in Zimbabwe.
Politicians, leaders, demogogues who warp democracy into a dictatorial pseudo-democracy need to be removed to protect the people from their self-serving rapaciousness and ballot-stuffing corruption.
And, if a 'leader' undemocratically makes war on his people/other nation, why should he/her be immune from the bullets he/she so liberally reserves for his people and other peoples? You have heard me make this case about Tony Blair (Iraq/WMD lies/UN Resolution), and I am quite happy to make it about ANY renegade South American 'leader'.
I think there is little here with which you would disagree :-)
Geoff.
Yes, my wife and I have changed many of our beliefs through hard experience of the excesses that renegade leaders impose on 'nations' peoples. Left, right, it does'nt matter.
Think, don't bother with this fellow. He completely falsifies reality to make it fit this unsophisticated, binary worldview that he probably learnt from some lowbrow right-wing publication. Arguments and evidence don't work with people in this degree of fanaticism.
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(9) Forgetit87
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have the same feeling about this guy as you do.......
An unwashed and uneducated mind......
I just feel sorry for the poor Brazilian wife he keeps mentioning......
Forgetit: Think, . . he completely falsifies reality to make it fit this unsophisticated, binary worldview that he probably learnt from some lowbrow right-wing publication. Arguments and evidence don't work with people in this degree of fanaticism.
Mar 22nd, 2011 - 10:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Disturbingly different from our other conversations - suggest get a good night's sleep.
Not at all different, GeoffW. I've pointed out many times before how you try to dismiss, or sometimes even demonize, those you're opposed to: e.g., by saying of Rousseff, before her turn to the right - which I'm sure pleased you very much - that she's a terrorist. Calling Lula's supporters unwashed and uneducated isn't just about stating any “fact” - it's also an attempt to de-humanize people who have used their right to vote in a manner that didn't please you - that is, by electing Lula. The upper- and upper-middle classes engage in similar demonstrations of anti-social elitism whenever the broader population happens to express itself in a way that doesn't serve the rich's interests. Your position on the Honduras coup illustrates this simplistic worldview quite well. Your unbridled hostility to the Latin left has convinced that any action - even a coup - against a leftist president in LatAm is fair play and should be supported, and those involved in the evil-doing should be hailed as “democratas”. I must remember you that the Brazilian military has presented the 64 coup as a defense of democracy against a leftist populist. And the Brazilian and the international western press did nothing but to echo the military's version that they were the saviors of democracy - they who forced your wife into exile.
Mar 23rd, 2011 - 03:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0(11) GeoffWard
Mar 23rd, 2011 - 04:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say:
”Forgetit: Think, . . Disturbingly different from our other conversations - suggest get a good night's sleep.”
I say:
You seemingly confuse my “civility” with a certain degree of accept of you viewpoints.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Your haughty besserwisserheit is nothing new, special or refreshing.
We got plenty like you down here.
Arrogant ethnocentric foreigners, pretending to be democrats whilst calling us “unwashed and uneducated” and craving for the illegal ousting of our governments.
Young Forgetit87 seems to know “your kind” too.
Thanks Forgetit, a much more characteristic response.
Mar 23rd, 2011 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0I say things as I see things, but
we all learn from considered and informative replies, and your are proving to be some of the most insightful on the site. Think identifies you as 'young', but you have perspective of more years - perhaps you are just young in his/her terms!
Think seems also to be Taking the Lead (Banderas allusion ;-) from you, and adding education to invective (must look up what a Besserwisserheit looks like).
Of all my comments and teases, 'The Great Unwashed' Victorian quote seems to have been the most potent.
There is a message here for the Brits who are running out of invective language in their colourful exchanges. Sometimes the most unlikely word or expression has the 'Power of the Needle'.
I really appreciate civility in discussion, but do enjoy the 'cut and thrust of debate' - that's why I have stayed with this site, which gives pleasure through its distinctly polarised opinions.
I imagine there is little difference in our backgrounds, but there are definite interesting differences in our opinions.
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