MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil’s Vale to invest 2.9bn USD in the country’s largest port by volume
Brazil’s Vale Doce, the world’s biggest iron-ore producer, said it will invest 2.9 billion US dollars to increase the capacity of the Ponta da Madeira terminal in northern Brazil, making it the largest port in the country by volume. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesWell, you can really see from this just how poorly Vale has been serving Brasil's interests. [this is called 'irony']
May 27th, 2011 - 12:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm surprised it hasn't been *totally* nationalised for its underperformance! [this is a bit more 'irony']
“Complete state ownership! Just take the medicine. You know it will do you good!” [and yet more 'irony' for our 'alternative' posters]
And on a previous thread - Forgetit insisted Brasil could & should build these super-bulk-carriers. I think realism has crept in - 15 tugboats is much more like it! ;-)
there you go again Geotard, show off how incompetent you are with doing your own homework and reading. To be fair here, Forget gave you the links of how Brazil is indeed capable of building those super bulk cariers, but Vale chief Agnellie (neo-liberal) has chosen for the cheaper made in Korea with help from the BNDES. I see you're trying be funny here, but the more you type your comments, the more you show off how foolish you are and don't know anything about nation you live with your wife. You're a typical European who lives outside its borders and believe to know it all (in reality you're nothing an empty jack).
May 27th, 2011 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Well, you can really see from this just how poorly Vale has been serving Brasil's interests”
May 27th, 2011 - 06:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly. They keep ordering boards from Chinese and Korean shipyards. I don't see how that's serving Brazilian interests. And as the Vale official said, the investment they are making in ports expansion is aimed at making infrastructure more efficient to the transportation of iron ore, thus better serving Vale's clients. Again: whom are Vale's investments benefiting - Brazil or Vale?
“Forgetit insisted Brasil could & should build these super-bulk-carriers.”
If you don't think Brazil can, then provide proof. The links that I showed you affirm that Agnelli's decision to order ships to East Asian shipyards was price-wise. As has been noticed, it was decision such as that one that made the Brazilian government turn against Agnelli. If, however, Brazil couldn't really produce those vessels, there would be no reason for anger, would there?
Hi guys,
May 27th, 2011 - 10:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0yes, indeed, I tease you here. But with reason.
Brasil never built the state-built or state-funded dry dock infrastructure capable of building bulk carriers, let alone super-bulk cariers of 400 metres for 400,000tdwc. Never had the forsight, never had the ambition.
Vale was in the raw materials business, not the ports & harbours business.
Only when you have become very big and very profitable can you turn your attention to doing for a state what it should have had the wit to do for itself, and only then if it brings benefit to the company and its shareholding owners (the Chinese have done the same with their Rio 'steel' port).
Vale placed the tugs and barge-trains order in Brasil, arguably where it could do most good, like Aracaju in Segipe and in Pará - very much third world in most respects but with the technology of these orders extending their capability.
Brasil's government 'anger' says absolutely nothing about Brasilian shipbuilding capabilities at the time, it says a lot, however, about wanting big chunks of Vale's cash flow to divert through Brasil's politicians hands.
When a fledgling leaves the nest and flies into the blue yonder its desire to maintain its old nest is pretty low (unless it always patches up the old nest - like a crane, and there are a dearth of these in Brasil (pun)).
Its allegance is to its genes spreading around the blue yonder.
Such is also the nature of a globalised multinational corporation.
But, if you tie the bird's leg to the ground, its 'genes' don't get very far; the same with a Vale. Feed the bird and it will always return; shoot it when it returns, and all you have is a dead bird.
“Brasil never built the state-built or state-funded dry dock infrastructure capable of building bulk carriers, let alone super-bulk cariers of 400 metres for 400,000tdwc. Never had the forsight, never had the ambition.”
May 27th, 2011 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Shows your ignorance and how lazy you are of doing a simple google search to prove yourself of what you typed is complete nonsense.
“Vale placed the tugs and barge-trains order in Brasil, arguably where it could do most good, like Aracaju in Segipe and in Pará - very much third world in most respects but with the technology of these orders extending their capability.”
I've been to Aracaju in Sergipe and it is a developed city with a high quality of life thought it has it's issues like any other cities. It shows again your ignorance, lack of understanding, comment nonsense about a about the nation you live in as a foreigner but know nothing about. Geo, that is a third world mentality. There is no city/village Aracaju in the State of Para. You show again your ignorance by not even studying the geography of the state of Para.
“if you tie the bird's leg to the ground, its 'genes' don't get very far; the same with a Vale. Feed the bird and it will always return; shoot it when it returns, and all you have is a dead bird.”
Nice theory to impress yourself or perhaps one of your British friends here that adore your “intelligence”. Fact is, Brazilian government did not shot the bird, it's alive and doing well. It's only dead in your closed minded “big” head.
This is what I have seen many times with ex pats (Dutch) living in South America and here in the US. They truly believe they know it all, by having in their head (without realizing it) that they are from a so called western nation and have a better understanding of the world. This is one of main reasons I can type here..Europe is not only financially bankrupt, but also by mindset. Geoff shows it perfectly...
Show more of your “intelligence”, mr tea drinker, keep believing you're teasing me (us)
During the 70s the BR naval industry was in the world top 10 in output. It fell from that position due to lack of investment in the next 2 decades: in the 80s a large part of the 3rd World experienced sovereign debt crises; in the 90s BR adopted neoliberal policies that shrank government investment in infrastructure, in the belief - a mistaken belief - that opening capital markets would reduce the need for public investment in development. In the 2000s the BR naval industry has rebirthed. This was due to Lula's insistence that companies that receive state funds (BNDES loans, for example) increase the percentage of domestically produced equipments they used. Orders from Petrobrás have been crucial for the explosive growth of the naval industry during the past decade in BR.
May 27th, 2011 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's very easy to say that BR has no capability of doing so. If that is so, then prove it! Just insulting the country won't do. You see, even the FT, which was very much sympathetic to Agnelli, alleged that his decision regarding the vessels had been based on price advantages only. If it was also due to lack of capacity from the BR industry, no doubt Agnelli (and the FT) would have said so in his own defense. And mind you: that it took so little for BR to insert new life in the naval industry, is because the industrial infrastructure was already there: it had been developed by the Presidents from 1930-80, specially by the military regime, which invested in heavy industries like no other regime has had.
” says a lot (...) about wanting big chunks of Vale's cash flow to divert through Brasil's politicians hands”
I see that you lack arguments and instead resort to tired ad hominems against politicians who adopt policies you dislike. Sometimes I feel like being nice to, and exchanging ideas with, you, Geoff, but this flamboyant self-assurance you adopt to mask your ignorance and slur people around makes me want to... Well, let's say that, if I had deep pockets, I'd pay you a ticket back to England.
My friends,
May 27th, 2011 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Two clicks and you could find this information also:
Coastal bulk carriers (see below) are small-beer compared to 400,000dwt super-bulk-carriers Vale is presently having built. They will probably be feeder carriers to bring ore-stock to the main international departure ports.
Pre-Lula, when Vale was purchasing abroad, the Brasilian domestic shipbuilding industry was in the doldrums.
If the pre-salt income is spent wisely, Brasil could become a world-class shipbuilder;
it certainly needs to translate the oil windfall into world-challenging Brasilian industries.
…………..
“In 2011, the Brazilian shipbuilding industry, with 37 shipyards, has a portfolio of around 270 projects (including ships, oil platforms and fluvial convoys) with a total of 6.2 million DWT (deadweight tons).
New orders announced might extend to over 140 ventures and new constructions.
The three main shipbuilding industry centres are in Rio de Janeiro, Pernambuco and Rio Grande do Sul states.
The Brazilian shipbuilding industry is focusing its attention on eight areas:
•Construction of tugs;
•Prorefam – Maritime Support Fleet Renewal Programme;
•Promef - Transpetro's Fleet Modernisation and Expansion Programme;
•EBN - Brazilian Navigation Company programme, Petrobras selected shipowners for the construction of 39 oil tankers in Brazil;
•Construction of oil production platforms and drilling rigs;
•Construction of container ships and bulk carriers to transport goods along the Brazilian coast;
•Construction of ferries, tugboats, ferry boats and passenger vessels for transport in rivers, bays and lagoons.
•Construction of Brazilian Navy ships, patrol boats, warships, a fleet of five submarines, and a naval shipyard.”
Vale Brasil is the largest vessel in the world. Compared to it, most other vessels built either in BR or around the world are “small-beer”. But that doesn't mean those shipyards don't have what it takes to build a larger vessel if given more time and money.
May 28th, 2011 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And I'm going to repeat what I wrote previously: the FT, as seen in its overage of the issue, disapproved Dilma's attempts to interfere in Vale's board of directors. Nonetheless it, too, explained Agnelli's decision to order vessels from East Asian shipyards as being motivated by price advantages ONLY. It never said anything on BR shipyards' lack of capability to build a vessel in Vale Brasil's dimensions: an argument that would have strengthened Agnelli's case against the government campaign to remove him. Agnelli himself never said anything similar on Brazilian shipyards. YOU are the one who came up with this. So far, however, you've failed to prove your point.
And as I wrote before, that the government disliked Agnelli's decision to build those vessels in China and Korea is an indication that BR shipyards could have produced them: otherwise the government's reaction would be irrational. If you disagree with me, try to build a serious argument rather than blurting out “corrupt!” screams against unidentified, faceless politicians, as if only you and the politicians who defend your POVs can have virtues. Baseless accusations won't do. Plus, it's weird to believe some unknown politicians would have tried to eat up a powerful multinational's financial resources, knowing that they couldn't deliver the product ordered.
Incoherent argument, Forgetit.
May 28th, 2011 - 10:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say “. . .But that doesn't mean those shipyards don't have what it takes to build a larger vessel if given more time and money.”
Exactly,
all these years later, and all that inflowing monies, and STILL Brasil produces only coastal bulk carriers.
The Governments of the day and the shipyards never got their shit together to do the BIG thing.
Companies go where their needs can be met, at the right time, at the right price - as you well know.
“all these years later”
May 28th, 2011 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What years later? You mean, the eight years that it took for the industry rebuild itself after being left in the mud by your hero, FHC?
“ all that inflowing monies”
What inflowing monies? BR shipyards only produce what is ordered to them. They produce oil rigs because that is what Petrobrás asks them to. But that doesn't mean oil rigs is all they can do. Perhaps they could have built a vessel the size of Vale Brasil if only Vale had requested them to. If you think that isn't so, then prove it. For Agnelli's justification for ordering Vale Brasil from East Asia is based on financial, not technical, arguments.
“The Governments of the day and the shipyards never got their shit together to do the BIG thing.”
I don't pretend to know in details the history of the BR naval industry. WHAT the industry is capable to produce or what it is not, is something that I don't know. But I bet you don't know it either. It's just that you feel comfortable in talking out of your ass on subjects you have little knowledge about. And that, I know from previous exchanges with you.
Forgetit,
May 29th, 2011 - 12:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have no interest (at the moment) about Brasil's naval build capabilities. This is not at issue.
The issue is 'anticipatory build'.
“If you build it, they will come”
Any one of the shipyards could have developed the capability with Government/BNDES support & funding. But none did. Nor did the Government itself.
No company needing a ship will wait for a shipyard to invest and build dry docks sufficient for the size of build needed.
They go where the yard is big enough
(Shipbuilding 101).
'The inflowing monies' refers largely to the export profits accrued by Brasil over eg. the last decade.
To develop a modern shipbuilding industry needs investment.
Profits give investment give profit.
The key bit is investment, you know, like the state is doing for the pre-salt rig builds.
South Korea chose to build BIG dry docks, and 'the people came'.
Remember my frantic calls for Brasilian investment in infrastructure whilst the window of opportunity remains open?
A Government chooses what to do with its money;
if it chooses to 'over-invest' in Bolsa, and under-invest in infrastructure *when it has the oportunity*, it has only itself to blame when trade goes elsewhere.
”I have no interest (at the moment) about Brasil's naval build capabilities. This is not at issue.”
May 29th, 2011 - 06:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Such a verbose post to state such a simple point. :)
My post #12 was restricted to clear ideas, short sentences and simple words.
May 30th, 2011 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Six straightforward thoughts for you to digest.
That you chose not to is your problem, not mine.
For a change, it is now ME who's driving YOU mad! :)
May 30th, 2011 - 01:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0: )
May 30th, 2011 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0Fun, though.
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