MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
US main interest is a “stable Argentina”, warns Falklands Task Force head
The head of the Royal Navy Task Force that recovered the Falkland Islands during the 1982 South Atlantic conflict has warned about UK defense cuts and underlined that United States has little interest in supporting Britain in any conflict since a stable Argentina is more important to the State Department. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesChuckle chuckle...................................
Jun 13th, 2011 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's simple, if before 1982 the UK had negotiated seriously and in good faith (and the Islanders have not been expressed by a flat refusal to negotiations). The story would have been otherwise, in 1982 there had been no war, and today, people of the islands and continental Argentine'd be friends. This would, of course, the most benign hypothesis.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The other is that the UK never wanted to negotiate because the only interests are economic and strategic, not “human rights”, right?
The United States should a southern Atlantic stable, but in turn the strong alliance with the United Kingdom is preventing progress and say whatever they really think about this case. I think that America would see a very good degree of agreement between Argentina-UK type Aaland islands.
USA ! where was it's ?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 01:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0here..........
http://www.stewwebb.com/911_WTC_Bush_Guilty_by_Stew_Webb_Whistleblower_12102010.htm
I would ask the people of the united kingdom if they are willing to go to another/s war/s (taking into account the human and economic cost of it) for something that could be solved through diplomacy. Stability and true friendship would be the result of a negotiation that Argentina really wants, and that the UK government refuses (at least to the public) emphatically.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Greetings, JPL.
jeanpaulleronde@yahoo.fr
Sandy is presenting the rationale for defence procurement rather than defence cuts by using current 'disputes' to make the case.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 01:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Retired (pre-octogenarian) Admirals are always wheeled out when serving officers are bound by their contracts to remain silent.
If oil riches are won in TFI, the defence allocation would change to reflect the value and the threat.
What will not happen is the letting down of the guard and vigillance .
This would certainly be the condition, whether as a BOT or by the request of a fully a indedependent FI.
Yes, there are TFI and their communities, but there are also the resources and the EEZ to protect.
Real politik.
I'd have thought it would be Argentina that would ask itself whether it wanted to go to another war, and reap a higher human and economic cost, it's not just a small detachment of Marines down there this time.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In addition, does this Admiral really believe we'd maintain our commitment in Afganistan and elsewhere, a commitment ensuring the Human Rights of other people's, none of them British, to the detriment of British Citizens on British Territory, being invaded by a rogue state such as Argentina?
I think not, such precedents exist throughout British History, with acts of retrenchment, and Argentina knows full well that we won't be caught with our pants down in the South Atlantic again.
At this very moment Argentina is a weak threat militarily, but that could change, and so could our deterrent, but in any event, the window of opportunity for Argentina is open now, until at least 2014/15, beyond then the Royal Navy will have reinvented itself to a greater capability.
So, best to act now RGs, do you feel lucky punk, well do you?
Chuckle, chuckle ....
Jun 13th, 2011 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course the State Deoartment was against assisting Britain in 1982 ... it was the Pentagon that thought otherwise. Have THEY changed their minds ?
A couple of facts -
The Admiral is 79 years old ad out of touch.
The letter ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8571168/Former-ministers-liability-for-the-billions-squandered-by-Labour.html ) fails to mention that the troops stationed on the islands are better equipped than in 1982, that the missile systems are more sophisticated than in 1982, and that the submarine capability is higher than in 1982. It also fails to mention the current state of the Argentine armed forces.
The official policy of the US has hardly changed, even with fovourable Presidents - “ ... The confidence between the two principals was momentarily strained by Reagan's belated support in the Falklands War, but this was more than countered by the Anglophile US Defense Secretary, Caspar Weinberger, who provided communications intercepts and approved shipments of the latest weapons to the massing British task force....”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/8571168/Former-ministers-liability-for-the-billions-squandered-by-Labour.html
This is politics ........ sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors ...... just the usual in fact! The letter's author also fails to note that if the US backed Argentina in an actual conflict over the islands, the US would quickly find itself alone in Afghanistan as the troops would be heading south !! No British Prime Minister could survive doing otherwise. And the Pentagon would get very concerned about Diego Garcia and Ascension. State officials come and go, Generals are there till they fade :-)
TWIMC
Jun 13th, 2011 - 02:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This boy Woodward really knows what he is talking about....
Incredible how British turnips disrespect their natural leaders......
Shame on you, British turnips.
Aye, they always do this when cuts come around to try and stop them.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Also, The Typhoon does have anti ship missiles.
Admiral !!
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0do i look like a stupid man ? your lunge is ....
in “”Strategy Lectures “” which is called -- soft reverse pasification -.needs
at least /3/ (three) actors to revel ........result is nothing everytime !
also ,the soldiers never (warrant)comment to the public !
probably,there is no any government in Londonabad ....
Remind that Argentina doesn't need US help on these (1831) cursed
bare ,rough small piece of lands ( islands)..
keep on guarding there by few soldiers for Antarctica !
” ... Remind that Argentina doesn't need US help on these (1831) cursed
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0bare ,rough small piece of lands ( islands)....”
Quite, your past success speaks for itself ;-)
You were there for a whole two months in 1832/3 and another two months in 1982 .... err ...... way to go, hurrah !
JPL, imagine if French Guiana was annexed by Brazil against the wishes of the people who lived there. Do you honestly believe the the French government would stop at harsh words?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”The US would support an Argentine “accommodation” as its national interest supports stability in the area. “This tells us all too clearly which way the wind is blowing”......
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In other words my comrades, US will support stability in the region BUT will not support a military action from either side... and that is the bottom line.
The first thought that comes to mind is a retired old duffer compaining about a changes to the Royal Navy he once worked for.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Admiral Sir John “Sandy” Woodward in a letter to the Daily Telegraph said Washington was pushing for negotiations over sovereignty and “significantly the Islands are already being called the Malvinas by the US”.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sounds like the British Government is beginning to prepare some people
for the cold, hard truth.
”Her army and her navy
England shall cast aside;
Soldiers and ships are costly things,
Defence an empty pride ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/8571442/Britain-can-do-nothing-to-prevent-Argentina-retaking-Falkland-Islands.html
Nestor done too good a job keeping the military weak,and now trying to catch
Jun 13th, 2011 - 03:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0NEWTOWN: The legacy of Argentina's former President Néstor Kirchner is not dead yet, but his goal of reorganizing the military by 2010 is definitively buried. With the implementation of a new defense law in 2006, it was hoped that the appropriate funding for the changes would follow. Although funding levels have seen some improvement in recent years, Argentina's economic troubles have pushed these modernization plans to 2025.
The weakness of the Argentine economy is the nation's most pressing threat. A negative growth outlook for the next two years has forced President Cristina Kirchner's administration to cut military spending and scrap plans for pending upgrades and replacement programs. As long as the Argentine economy is in a slump, prospects for procurement remain dim.
Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/economic-instability-in-argentina-limits-military-advancements-21114/#ixzz1PAhtrCzs
@15
Jun 13th, 2011 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marcos, the only thing that the Americans know about Argentina is our “meat” and how good the BBQ's are, and in reference to Malvinas, be sure you carry a map so you can show them where the Islands are located, because otherwise they have no clue what you are talking about !!
It does beg the question, if the UK felt obliged to withdraw its (roughly) 10,000 troops from Afghanistan to honour it's commitments to the overseas territories, if the US did actively side with Argentina (rather than just sitting on the fence more in their direction), would the other European and Commonwealth nations see it as an opportune excuse to pull their troops out as well?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Leaving the US as the only contributing country with more than 1,000 troops on the ground.
Let's face it, security in Helmand and Kandahar provinces isn't really a job that you want dropped in your lap.
@17
Jun 13th, 2011 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I know that !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
“if the US did actively side with Argentina” .... on what ?? Guys !! this is just a “ cybernetic masturbation” ... the US faces the following:
Jun 13th, 2011 - 04:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unemployment rate 9.1%
National debt 14 trillion
A raise in the debt ceiling?
Iraq - Afghanistan do they pull out Yes or No?
Lybia is a mess
Syria another mess
Yemen a huge mess
Immigration reform
A re election?
Home owners foreclosure ( the 2nd wave of)
Healthcare reform
Is there any need of continuing ?? so for sure Malvinas and Argentina are not even in the agenda
“In other words my comrades, US will support stability in the region BUT will not support a military action from either side... and that is the bottom line.”
Jun 13th, 2011 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This.
Interesting book from a “yank” that knows very well british history.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 05:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World”
http://www.evilempirebook.com/book.php
12 Rufus (#)
Jun 13th, 2011 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The wishes of the people do not automatically create rights. With more reason, if there are strong legal arguments that contradict those desires. And this is not carried forward the human rights of anyone, it is only complying with the law.
On the case of French Guiana, there is some continuing strong demand from Brazil? In the case of Brazil gave him the territory, I do not happen to be worse than they are today, the language, customs and economy would remain with autonomy and only international representation would be affected. As the guarantor of that autonomy would be the UN or a neutral country (not France). Of course, in practice, would not be affected at all your daily life.
Greetings, JPL.
jeanpaulleronde@yahoo.fr
Think - 1 is your shortest ever post. Care to educate me on what exactly is funny.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 05:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I doubt we will see any Argentine aggression and you appear to agree with this.
These military types like to rattle the saber in the right wing press in order to protect their beloved part of the military. That is all what this story is about really. Ultimately UK sovereignty is beyond question and nothing Argentina can do will change that fact.
Let the oil flow!!!!
mmm...well if the shit hits the fan, I'm sure we'll redirect the £800 Million our Government has promised in Overseas Aid towards defending our interests in the South Atlantic.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0See what happened there, simple maths; an RG Invasion would cause the death of over 1.3 Million people Worldwide, and that is before the troops engage.
You people are such entertainment; if we can afford to spend £800 Million on poor people that aren't even British, during the course of just 12 months, do you think we're at all concerned as a Nation about spending 1/8th of that figure annually to defend 3,000 actual British Citizens?
Come on, all your arguments are a joke, your country is broken, and will always be broken.
22 so_far , What is your opinion about that book?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 06:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 024 Beef , “Let the oil flow”
I hope so, oil exploration in a historically disputed are like Malvinas only helps Argentina to gain more support around the world, the article above is a perfect example of that.
Obama slaps Britain in the face
Jun 13th, 2011 - 06:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@27 Do you know why?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“London Mayor Boris Johnson hits Obama's motorcade with congestion charge..” :-))
Marcos,
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I had the book in my hands a week and because of time I could not read it complete. Anyway what I read (more than half) left me the impression that the author, Stven Grasse, put emphasis on issues and shameful bloody British history, too much emphasis i must add.
I think the history of many countries (including Argentina) have parts that no one can be proud.
However what I think the author argues, and is the BIG difference, is that unlike many countries that have learned from his past ....... UK continues its idea of Empire and domination and theft, of course in different levels but not to acknowledge mistakes and continue with its policy perverse that with a different nuance, not so different than behaviour of 18 and 19 centuries, example of that is the continuation of colonial policy, which is obsolote and Steven develop so well in his book.
I short i do bealive that he´s biased and have personal think against brits, but............all what he writes are verifiable as historical facts and everyone can draw their own conclusions
Exactly as it is today observing the attitudes of the British Government, neither more nor less.
Finally i do believe the author is biased and have personal thing with brits.....but
OK, let's give Argentina the stable;
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0it's up to them what they do with the horse.
CFK should thank her God it's not a racing stable;
They Shoot Horses, Don't They?
With the end of the cold war , Obama sees Britain as just another country and not an important ally anymore...
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@31 I strongly disagree
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It looks like a utopia, it seems repetitive, but it is very important work of these years of Nestor and Cristina Kirchner to bet as a state policy of disarmament and non-violence and opt for dialogue and peace among peoples, the implementation of resolution 2065 United Nations in the sense of sitting at the table of negotiations with Argentina. This is its main strength and the fact is that Argentina has dropped sharply reducing their military spending to essentials only. This contrasts with the aggressive policy arms of Great Britain to hold a suspected nuclear base in the islands and yet continues to humanitarian bombing civilians in Libya. This has fallen badly in public opinion worldwide.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina's main weapon is dialogue and not violence, uphold the principle of territorial integrity, while the proposal of Great Britain is the violence and veiled threat of military base and double talk.
Argentina's main weapon is dialogue and not violence, uphold the principle of territorial integrity, while the proposal of Great Britain is the violence and veiled threat to the military base. United Nations resolutions must be accepted by all, by emerging and developed countries, and even more developed, because the more power you have in all areas, provided the greater the degree of responsibility. Countries that are presented to the civilized world as are those who must lead by example.
Marcos, sorry the echo at the end :)
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@32 sad but true.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@35 You sound like a member of the GOP, am I wrong?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We (the rest of the world) are entertained by it. With friends like Obama who needs enemies
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see the El Malvinense nutjobs continue their deluded twaddle. Before 1982 Britain did negotiate in good faith and was prepared to put sovereignty on the agenda (and before you cum in your pants, this was not recogntion of Argentina's “rights”). It tried all ways to convince the islanders closer ties with Argentina were desirable.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Without fail for every good thing Argentina did, it managed to shoot itself in the foot.
Like when the FIG was persuaded to go to Buenos Aires to discuss a greater role for Argentina, they were greeted on their arrival with an orchestrated press campaign and harangued everywhere they went. They went home early.
Thats just one example of many; that negotiations went nowhere may have something to do with your attitudes, your refusal to compromise and your refusal to recognise that the Falkland Islanders had a say in their own future. You treated them as an obstacle to be trampled down, then wonder why they weren't grateful for the trinkets you tossed in their direction.
And Argentina has no intention whatsoever to negotiate, it just wants Britain to capitulate to its demands. Finally, I find it ironic in the extreme that someone like JPL spouts on about the price of war, when he and his compatriots spend most of their time wanking over imagined victories in the South Atlantic that never happened.
Mmm, as to the article itself. Little more than a retired officer trying to protect the service. I actually agree with him, we couldn't retake the Falklands like we did in 1982. Trouble is the Argentine forces ain't in a position to do what they did back then either.
The one thing Sandy missed, is if you want a stable Argentina don't ever give them the Falklands. 'cos then they wouldn't something to distract the population from the mess the country's in. And truth to be told, Argentina has little that America wants - apart perhaps from the kit you stole from their plane when it was there to help your forces.
this article is utter crap!
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“This means Britain can now do “precisely nothing” to prevent Argentina retaking the Falklands.” ??? there is not going to be a war, but the warmongering leaders of the UK are promoting a war. So they are not pacific islanders after all.
The picture's man is soldier ! has titles Admiral...Sir..... aaaa
Jun 13th, 2011 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but gappy which his Nobel Economy degree to rescue the UK &Falkland...
other Commonfelt countries from their econ crisis....!
TWIMC
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A more recent picture of “ Sir Sandy”
http://www.servicios.clarin.com/notas/jsp/clarin/v8/galeria/galeria.jsp?notaId=1329057&mtmTipo=Imagen&mostrar=684808
I like this lad……
He is not a turnip…..
You Brits shold listen to him …..
29 so_far
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you for sharing your opinion about “101 ways..” I heard about this book and I am looking forward to buy a copy. Is always good to hear an honest opinion from the other side....ni tanto the other side thought :-)
38 JustinKuntz (#)
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Chapter II - The negotiations until April 2, 1982
http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cescem.org.ar%2Finforme_rattenbach%2Fparte2_capitulo02_01.html
If the UK had negotiated seriously the 1982 war had never existed, that are the simple facts and the sad reality.
The wishes of the people do not automatically create rights, sr. justin
is a historical fact, and please
justin does not get out
Admiral !!
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0-- everbody has British passport at Falklands ?....too many persons
have British passports nowadays...especially at Middle East ..why ?
Admiral !!
-- do you have any relations in person with these British companies
XE...Control Risks...Brown & Root ...Triple Canopy...CACI....Titan . ?
Marcos - if commercial production comes to fruition then the big boys follow the money. A bit like Brazil allowing those Korean fishermen to unload their Falklands catch.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You could have had a chance to collaborate but now you muppets have cut yourself out of the deal. FPSO and then onto market. With two fingers up to those spineless and powerless next door neighbours. If you had so much support then why is it not your flag over the islands?
@42
Jun 13th, 2011 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And I am looking forward to getting another copy of Argentine war Heroes,.my last copy blew away in the wind
@46
Jun 13th, 2011 - 09:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stick, I have an extra copy, do you need one?
101 ways to insult an Argie. Don't need to but a copy, just read these forums and it is the Argie posters that provide all the ammunition.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stick, I have an extra copy, do you need one?
Jun 13th, 2011 - 09:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No thanks managed to find the last loo roll
The Argies give out their medals like toffees anyway so I guess anyone who fired a weapon in 1982 would be classed as a war hero. Shame they have such low standards (that they constantly fail to live up to).
Jun 13th, 2011 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your welcome Stick !!
Jun 13th, 2011 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Beef I know you are fuming over all these news just today.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Navy chief: Britain cannot keep up its role in Libya air war due to cuts”
“Royal Navy fighter pilots are being forced to learn French in order to operate on board France’s flagship aircraft carrier”
“Britain can do 'nothing' to prevent Argentina retaking Falkland Islands”
Your country is coming to grips and accepting the reality, don't blame us.
@49 “No thanks managed to find the last loo roll”
Jun 13th, 2011 - 10:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is always nice to have such cordial and amicable exchange of words! and then we wonder why we write what we write ....
The article is an essay expressing the views of one person from one perspective. He is pee-ed off because the Navy has endured cuts in expenditure. Tough. But money and resources will always be available if necessary.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 55 “Is always nice to have such cordial and amicable exchange of words! and then we wonder why we write what we write ....” jejeje
Jun 13th, 2011 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0JPL
Jun 13th, 2011 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All UN declarations on independence since the 1960s stress the right to self-determination. That you delude yourselves you have support is your own problem.
You'd take it to the ICJ if you had any confidence, that you refuse speaks volumes.
Desperate words from desperate bloggers,
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Where is Argentina in Libya, or afghan or the other bad places in the world, at home giving it all i guess?
as for America supporting the argentine cause, [you have no cause to support], if the British pulled her troops out from American support around the world, all other country’s would pull out as well, sadly that’s a fact, the British still carries weight, besides what would America lose by not supporting Argentina, [friendship with Ortega and Hugo ]
But by turning again the British, [let me see]
1, the loss of us air force bases in the uk
2, the loss of us naval facilities in the UK.
3, the loss of army facilities in the UK.
4, the loss of a nuclear sub facilities in the UK.
5, the loss of flying dales in the uk.
6, and the closure of over 60 more facilities in the UK.
7, British overseas territories that allow the us, facilities,
8, the support of the closest ally they would ever have
9, removal of all training facilities for both sides [ i.e. training in the us]
10 with all the shit falling from afar, another possible 5 Vietnam’s,
We may be nothing in Obamas eyes, but would you cut off your nose to spite your face,, because that’s what they would have to do,,
gentlemen despite the sabres rattling, the Americans, at the very least will support peace and friendship, and the very worse send his puppies to shake hands with the argie lady, but when the shit hits the fan, it will be Argentina, again finding herself alone and desperate, just like in 1982 and in 2011, still desperate and still lonely , hoping and preying the UN will bring some good jokes with them lolol
just a mild thought ??
Today is the 29th anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands from the corrupt Argentine military regime that seized the islands on April 2 1982.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forgive but never forget.
SoFa, MoreCrap - try this one
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Britain-Made-Modern-World/dp/0141007540/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308007313&sr=1-2
#58 You are right about the never forgetting! Forgiving will take time.
Never forget. Never forgive. They wish your death.
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0First_“The UK press reacted to the US President Obama administration support of an Argentine inspired Organization of American States, OAS, unanimous declaration on the Falklands/Malvinas question that calls for sovereignty negotiations
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Second_”Admiral Sir John “Sandy” Woodward in a letter to the Daily Telegraph said Washington was pushing for negotiations over sovereignty and “significantly the Islands are already being called the Malvinas by the US”.
Third_“Military cargo seized by Argentine gov't returned to the US
“We are pleased to inform that the incident involving the seizing of US property by Argentine authorities has been resolved satisfactorily,” a press release sent by the US State Department read”
http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/69996/military-cargo-seized-by-argentine-govt-returned-to-the-us
To be continued...
@ 57 why shoud we be killing people in Lybia or Afghanistan? I personally like the Arabs very very much, the Afghans and also the Iranians. Why is the UK in those places killing people? To save the world? Are you planning to commit mass suicide???
Jun 13th, 2011 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 59 that's true, never forgetting, the world is full of memories of your crimes.
59 Rotted, “try this one”
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0A TV historian written book (Niall Ferguson)??
No thanks, I will stay with “so_far” suggestion:
“The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World”
Rightwing historian Niall Ferguson
“History is our interpretation of past thoughts that happened to be written down or otherwise preserved. We do not really study [historical] causes, but what people at the time thought were the causes. And our aim in retrieving their thoughts is not so much to explain how things happened as to understand how they seemed to have happened.”
Niall Ferguson quote
“Ferguson, who works as a consultant for a software developer that creates history-based games, encourages the class to play five rounds of the multi-player game Commerce, Conquest and Colonisation, as a supplementary activity”
No wonder you are so brainwashed.
Lots of comments but I think the islands are not in the least worried. Quite true at present difficult for UK to retake the Islands- but very difficult-like impossible- for Arg to re-invade anyway! With what?- and against modern 21st century airdefences and the liklehood of a nuclear sub “somewhere” in the S Atlantic that can seriosly degrade all you naval and airbases from several thousand miles away? Lets just hope it never happes as nobody want to go down that path again.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0AS for USA -= politicas is and always has been - and always will be - politics - you say what suits you best in the environment you are! Lets face it - imagine the hassle the US would have got non stop in the ear had they called us the Falklands and voted against at the OAS!! They said and did what they did (and its meaningless and of no legal value anyway and they and UK know it) because it suits them at that place.
As others have said- should it come to fisticuffs again - who will UAS back - well look at what they may gain from Argentina against what they will loose worldwide that UK can provide them with! Pretty clear to me and anybody with just a minute grasp of reality.
But if you fantasize in life - believe what you like!!
@ 64 too many words for someone who is not worried.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:48 am - Link - Report abuse 065- nope just trying to explain a bit of reality to those who fantasize!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0MoreCrap - “ .... Niall Campbell Douglas Ferguson.. is a British historian who specialises in financial and economic history, particularly hyperinflation and the bond markets, as well as the history of colonialism. Ferguson, who was born in Glasgow, is the Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History at Harvard University as well as William Ziegler Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School, and also currently the Philippe Roman Chair in History and International Affairs at the London School of Economics. He was educated at the private Glasgow Academy in Scotland, and at Magdalen College, Oxford....”
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0He's even a Scotsman !
Brainwashed??
Rotted, “He's even a Scotsman”
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0Is that a good thing?
“ Last week the new education secretary publicly appealed to pro-empire TV historian Niall Ferguson to help rewrite the history curriculum for English schools. Considering this is a man who has unashamedly championed British colonialism and declared that ”empire is more necessary in the 21st century than ever before“, letting him loose on some of the most sensitive parts of the school syllabus in multicultural Britain might have been expected to provoke uproar”
Yes brainwashed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/10/british-empire-michael-gove-history-teaching
#59 Mr RedHole.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0In the Library saw the book that you are advising us “Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World”............in science fiction section.
Honesty i prefer Matrix trilogy, thanks anyway :)
:-)))))
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0But it didn't provoke uproar, did it MoreCrap :-)
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0That the British Empire was a bad thing was sold to the British public to ease the transition whilst the Empire was splitting apart. Over sold in fact. Now the history of the British Empire is being revisited and reviewed. In my view it's about time that the British people re-established their pride in the Empire and the good it did. But both good and bad should be seen in context ... and not by the drippy views of the 21st Century.
Getting back to the article above. The real story of course is that the British public are still so sensitive over the Falkland islands that any suggestion that they may be lost to an aggressor is useful in the political game of 'defence budget'. That fact is important. More important than an old Admiral's letter!
Oh, and by the way ...... Happy Liberation Day :-)
@57 Briton
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Brutal honesty and ... Crytsal clear.
Anyone here have doubts? Not me...
Please re-read what he said.... AND evryone leave out of this forum! USA-UK is like an old married couple, there will be small skirmshes bewteen them, throw couple of dishes flying, some bad swearwords at each other, ... some period of silence apart... THEN, back to bed and makeup sex!!!!! DIVORCE? eh? whats that ? they dont knwo about that...
Rotted,
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Nice gifts you got in the last few hours:
US President Obama administration support for Argentina in the OAS.
Admiral Sir John “Sandy” Woodward letter.
United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon celebrating....his birthday in mainland Argentina (and with alfajores)
@ .71 “the British public are still so sensitive over the Falkland islands ” they don't even know where the islands are haha shut up redhoyt! haha
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0TBA I am not a great fan of Niall Ferguson 's interpretation of history and how it should be taught in schools in the UK. History should be about giving access to information and allowing students to form their own conclusions from the facts. (Though this tends to go against most State education policies where subjects are too prescriptive).
Jun 14th, 2011 - 03:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0He has an interesting take on the history of South America and how the liberators decided democracy and spreading the wealth was just not suitable for the SoAm people! Hmmmm.
Then they wouldn't be much of a political tool would they, ExBrain !
Jun 14th, 2011 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0Elaine - I am old enough to remember well my Grandfather's pride about the Empire. It wasn't all good, but then neither were the Spanish Empire, the Dutch Empire, the Russian Empires ( think there's been 5 - can't hold on to them!), or indeed any of the other big players of the time. And that bit is important - 'of the time'. If anything the British Empire did not compare badly when set against its rivals and the continues existence of the Commonwealth would seem to suggest that we didn't offend everyone :-)
I agree with your take on education, but these days it seems that the state education system is more about 'training' than learning to learn.
http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/
Jun 14th, 2011 - 05:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/
In my view, South Africa would be discarded due to the country’s instability. Between Patagonia and Falklands I daresay the second choice will be preferred for a very simple reason: the isles already host a British military base, a fact that will facilitate installation and security. Besides Great Britain is a NATO strategic ally and a US historical ally.
So it is unlikely a military base of that sort be set up in Argentina. For the country the problem would be a US base in Falklands would strengthen the British position In the remote hypothesis that the United Stated decided to set up a base in Argentina, the authorization of the Argentine Congress would be first required and not easily granted.
Do we have to invade the Islands? Would we resolve this peacefully? Do they have the capabilities to repeat a 1982 retaken of the island? Is USA really supporting us? Does a new conflict push Argentina to acquire more Russian weapons?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lot of post, different points of view, theories, someone Mohams trying harder to sound posh and smart but I only have one question that drives me crazy...
Does anyone have the phone number of Miss South Carolina?
Well ,when in business or politics,NEVER trust an American.He will sell his Grandmother.It is also an interesting fact that the Falklands have been British ,longer than Texas has been part of the Union !
Jun 14th, 2011 - 07:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0I see the C-24's up and running again -
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ ... Chief Minister Peter Caruana and his government have ceased attending these C24 sessions for policy reasons, essentially to bolster the position that Gibraltar and the UK have, with the 2006 Constitution, taken Gibraltar to a state where it has achieved de facto decolonisation. It also reflects the fact that the C24 has long frustrated all Gibraltar politicians because it says one thing and does nothing....”
“ ... And Mr Picardo told the C24 that there is no reference in the UN resolutions to there being any distinction in relation to territories where a so called “sovereignty dispute” exists ...”
“ ... There were no questions from the floor and the UK representation was notably absent from its place at the table....”
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=21985
Another year ... same old, same old :-)
Admiral !!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0no answer for # 44 ?
@76 I agree to a great extent about the various Empires. There seems to be a fixation on the British Empire on this board probably because the Peronist movement decided that the British were to be the common enemy of the people of Argentina. I liken it to the way British children were raised to be anti-German for generations after the wars had ended. Fortunately, that is no longer the case.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Education is still very divided in the UK. State education is generally good but is too fixated on league tables and teaching the information required to pass exams. Independent education teaches students how to learn, garner facts and form opinions, whilst still passing the required exams. Mark Steel once described the differences as 'education for the followers vs. education for leaders'. He probably has a point.
Blah blah blah, we're still here. Happy Liberation Day.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0With friends like Obama who needs enemies...
Jun 14th, 2011 - 12:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is funny but all of you seemed happy with the United States' statement: Argentinians because US sided Argentina in this conflict and Britain because they slam each other... and you still arguing who came first to the Island?
WOW, well to be honest, Obama doesn't care any of your points, if he sees Black Gold, he would go for it, no matter who's there (Argentina or UK).
Falklands is not a country, not a state, just a desert island (or two). Nobody goes there, no Madonna/U2/Shakira tours, no football, no leagues, nothing, nothing at all. It could be a good source for oil, no more than that. So if I were you, I would think better and look Sharp! US is behind you guys! Ask Iraq
84. . . . . you mean like the way the USA took over Alaska?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 01:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps the much greater threat is that the USA decide to take over Greenland in order to 'protect' the West's Arctic oil resources.
. . . . . in which case the next UN war would be against the USA.
That would provide a *real* dilemma for the UK - support the US or support the UN. . . . I guess a true Jefferson would expect the UK to side with the UN.
@78 “Does anyone have the phone number of Miss South Carolina?”
Jun 14th, 2011 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not in my phone book Nico but I can pull some strings and get the number for you!!
#84 - I thought the US were not behind us, and that was a problem? Wish you fellas would make up your minds .... or at least rub those two brain cells together!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 01:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 083 lsolde, Liberation?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not really, your colony is governed by a corporation, a former Governor of Basra Iraq and a Queen 8000 miles away.
At least the United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon is celebrating.........his 67 birthday in mainland Argentina.
#87 well they slam in your face, it sounds like they want to take part of this too. Wait and see
Jun 14th, 2011 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 082 ElaineB:
Jun 14th, 2011 - 03:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hae to agree with this. Sort of like how most people are taught to drive over here. You are taught to pass the test, then you learn how to drive.
# 8 Mr Think, please let me introduce you to another British who deserves respect and a model for islanders.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Today he decided to be registered in the national registry of people in Ushuaia (Tierra del Fuego) as a person born in Islas Malvinas Argentinas.
He also wants his Argentinean DNI
Really glad to see a brit no turnip at all :)
http://www.jamespeck.com.ar/cveng.htm
http://www.jamespeck.com.ar/cveng.htm
)1 so_far
Jun 14th, 2011 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0His father was a good man.......
So is he.
@92
Jun 14th, 2011 - 04:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Is just one guy, now if you see hundreds doing the same thing , it would a make a difference, right? JMO
Smart man.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.pais24.com/index.php?go=n&id=132959&x=El-Registro-Civil-inscribio-por-primera-vez-un-nacimiento-malvinense
dont know why but MP will not say nothing and will delete it!!!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:))))))
# 92, Artillero, even the person that reach Everest start with first step......i think is really nice from him what he done.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 05:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please read his comments, this guy has balance and is sensible.
“It's curious, we´re thousands of miles from England trying to preserve a nationalism that does not even exist in the land of our ancestors....... And when an islander travel meets reality: the English do not really know who we are or where we are..”
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/170349-james-peck-un-pintor-de-malvinas-a-buenos-aires
#92 Interesting point Mt Think !
Could be genetic factor the big “player” here ?? hmmm
Where is Education ? Sense of Justice ? Good will ? and all those features for act properly listening international calls ?
92. Hi. Do you still live out in the Sierras Chicas?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Seen a photo of you the other day. You look very much like your father did at the same age.
(97)
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And yet another turnip that “guesses” that Think is Alex Betts..................
Sorry old chap. Turnip?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So how did you know Terry?
[] 86 artio
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0when i went to US/2009/Dallas...i heard interestingly sometings there
one of them is :
“” the american woman/girl wants children but never wants husband “”
is this true generally ??
Everybody knew Terry!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A lot of people new of Terry.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 06:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Alex Betts changed his name to Alejandro though I suspect you know that. If you were indeed him I was just going to say that I see his younger brother a few times a year and that he is well.
I have been called a few names in my life (some deserved) but never a Turnip!
@96
Jun 14th, 2011 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree and I didn't want to sound like a pessimistic !
@100
true in a way !! why do you think that i'm single at 48??
91. My understanding is that he always goes back to the Falklands when he is hungry or broke or both!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So I would not get too excited.
(102)Rgrliars
Jun 14th, 2011 - 07:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyone that threatens to desecrate the tombs of old foes or rape their women is a turnip……..
Luckily, most Brits are decent persons..............
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_gallipoli.pdf
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_gallipoli.pdf
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_gallipoli.pdf
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_gallipoli.pdf
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/cwgc_gallipoli.pdf
105. True. I just wanted to wind you all up and I apoligise deeply.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not helped by some of you lot wanted to kill all and everybody who does not agree with them.
I did not say rape I said ravish. The word Ravish I agree could be construed as meaning rape.
But I mean't in the context of for example the Bride look Ravishing. That does not mean that anyone is going to rape her does it.
The news about James Peck, born in Malvinas, is getting bigger by the minute.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1381464-por-primera-vez-un-malvinense-tramito-un-dni-argentino#comentar
@106 Don't come to Texas .... just in case !
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 106 dejá de hacerte el macho vos pedo de maricona jaja el dia que vos fifes se cae el mundo jaja
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so the islanders are leaving the islands. is he isolde's husband?
#106 LOL, please stay far of my place too ! what a treasure ! :)
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:-))))
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0108. Ok. I am very sorry if I offended you with my words.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@112 ..... May be is one your games, I don't care. I was ready to rip your head off for sure !!! Nobody talks like that for fun , do you follow?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0113. No it is not a game. I am 100% sincere when I apologise.
Jun 14th, 2011 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“It's curious, we´re thousands of miles from England trying to preserve a nationalism that does not even exist in the land of our ancestors....... And when an islander travel meets reality: the English do not really know who we are or where we are..” via SoFa #96
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0.................
Here in Salvador I feel parts are so redolent of old Portugal such that they are more Lisbon than Lisbon - and the turn of the century Brasilian literature brings full colour to these sepia echoes of time.
Along my Bahian beaches I frequently glimpse a lost Angolan society in extensive but hidden candomblé beliefs and macumban artifacts - candles, fire hearths, dismembered dolls, chicken heads & feet;
now 'more Angolan than Angola' but additionally, through capoeira and carnival, a colourful component of today's Brasil.
It is a part of the roll-over of cultures that take place with migrations of societies, to take their features with them, retaining the defining 'core' whilst adapting to and adopting the new.
This core often makes the colonisers more characteristic of the culture-departed (easily parodied) than those that remained in the home country - for their culture itself moves on.
Thus colonial Kenya remained more Edwardian than Elizabethan until and beyond independence .
And so it will be with the Falkland Islands, t
hough cultural convergencies engendered by the ease of travel, the media and the internet, will, of course, overlay everything.
US Navy will help No.1 ally to train next-generation carrier crews
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-events/us_navy_will_help_no.htm
Admiral Gary Roughead, Chief of Naval Operations for the US Navy, He added:
”The UK is at the top of the game in anti-submarine warfare
Both Admirals were due to hold more talks on shared interests this week. Admiral Roughead said: “The UK is our No.1 ally
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-events/us_navy_will_help_no.htm
isn’t it nice to be British,..
@ 115 o que foi que você disse?
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 87 Do you see now? In the UK they don't know where isolde's home is.
@43 “If the UK had negotiated seriously the 1982 war had never existed, that are the simple facts and the sad reality.”
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps, but if Argentina had not invaded in 1982, there would not have been a war either. Jean-Paul, your comments somehow suggest that the UK was at fault for the war, not Argentina. Do you think that the UK not negotiating forced Argentina to invade?
This reminds me exactly why I read these posts: to try to find out for myself why Argentina gets so much credibility while the UK is painted as a villain.
For years the dispute, if it existed, was very minor. Certainly not important enough to stop the trade and communication between the Falklands and Argentina. Then the war, economic blockading and aggressive diplomacy, if that's not a contradiction. And who gets criticized? Not the instigators, but the UK.
Is this because:
a) Everyone thinks Argentina is right, legally, historically, morally, geographically, etc...
b) Everyone hates the imperialistic British
c) Countries shouldn't own land thousands of miles away
d) Everyone thinks that negotiation is always good, regardless of the outcome
e) there are wider politico-economic issues that I don't understand
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the UK or the British. The only allegiance I might feel is that they are at last supporting the islanders' wishes. Unlike others, I'm not saying they're the best or the strongest or the cleverest, because every country says that about itself. It's just that Argentina is making all the noise and the claims, while the UK is actually taking the most peaceful path. The Islanders have not harmed anyone since 1833. No indigenous peoples were killed or displaced when they arrived.
Why is what might or might not have happened to a few dozen people almost 200 years ago more important than what happens to almost 3000 people today? Why does Argentina make such a fuss and why is it so important that Argentina be patted on the back for this?
she is gready and selfish and suported by gready and selfish allies,
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0she relies of their weakneses, that they hate the british, and therefore will suport her, but they will all stop short of action, and this alone tells you there true reasoning ??
Hi, XBox 117,
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“@ 115: o que foi que você disse?”
just thinking out loud about how we take our lives with us when we leave and plant them on some foreign shore to grow into something new and different.
G.
@ 116 there is not going to be a war between Argentina and the UK. Can't you understand that? haha
Jun 14th, 2011 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 118 “such a fuss” Argentina is not making a fuss. This is a claim of sovereignty, nothing more nothing less. Why are you so angry about Argentina's claim of sovereignty?
James Peck, born in Malvinas and now Argentinean citizen, standing beside a president in an act inaugurated a heliport...
Jun 14th, 2011 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0l like this guy, there is hope for the future generations
look at him in the video
http://www.infobae.com/notas/587634-A-29-anos-del-fin-de-la-guerra-la-Presidente-renovo-el-reclamo-de-soberania-sobre-las-Malvinas.html
@122, Great news, congratulations James!
Jun 14th, 2011 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Still clutching atv straws Argies? Who is the Peck fella anyway?
Jun 15th, 2011 - 12:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ .... she criticized the British government. ”Pretending to maintain geographical ruling over a territory that's over 14,000 kilometres away is ridiculous ....”
So we are back to geography ........... and who is pretending ?
:-)
@ 124 James Peck is an islander (aka kelper). You hate him. Don't you? :)
Jun 15th, 2011 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Never heard of him, but amongst 3000 inhabitants you are always going to get a few plonkers .... and Argentina has 40 million inhabitants, wow, that's a lot of plonkers :-)
Jun 15th, 2011 - 01:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 126 it's good to see you express you real feelings towards the islanders that you love so dearly :)
Jun 15th, 2011 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Don't actually know any of them ExBrain, but I do get a warm feeling when I consider that the Falkland Islands are still British, and that the islanders that our lads died for 29 years ago are still enjoying their freedom.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 04:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can't help it if a few plonkers creep in...... every country has got them. A fair few of your lot seem to pop up on these pages :-)
@88MarcosAlejandro,
Jun 15th, 2011 - 04:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes Marcos, Liberation from an uninvited, illegal, invading army.
Which, thankfully was rightly ejected.
@109 Xbox,
No he is not.
@117 Xbox,
l do not care if people from the UK or anywhere else do not know where l live.
@122so_far
We make our own decisions in life. lf he wants to be Argentine, thats his lookout.
@Artillero601
Jun 15th, 2011 - 05:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0You my hero so : )
@briton
Do you drink some kind of poisonous beverage every day or its just natural your “living in denial fixation”?
Just wonder : )
@stakeholder
“Perhaps, but if Argentina had not invaded in 1982, there would not have been a war either”
And perhaps if UK would never invaded illegally the islands we wouldn’t have this silly debate.
“Why is what might or might not have happened to a few dozen people almost 200 years ago more important than what happens to almost 3000 people today?”
Justice, have you ever heard about that?
The right of 12 people cannot be taken away by 1000, 2000, 3000, etc.
The same can happen with 3000 being pushed way for lets say 10.000 and then 100.000 pushing away the 10.000 and we can go like this forever and the last can say the same as you are saying now.
@Redhoyt
Hey Red can you check your grammar please? You grammar is getting worse than mine now, and that is much to say... ha ha
Your lads died because your govt. At that time was so silly to send them down here in the first place. And will continue dying until your little heads understand that your little nation has to limit her existence to the surrendering waters in the North Sea.
And we'll keep sending them Dim, should the circumstances require it ...... we are an island race .... and our islands are - everywhere :-)
Jun 15th, 2011 - 06:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 128 don't say much, it's not necessary, we all know that you don't care about the islanders, not because you don't know them but because you consider they're worthless.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 06:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 129 I know how you feel Isolde, your protectors in London will tear down your house and the other islanders' houses with your families inside if they think that there's oild under beds, and you know that very well. English lords have always been like this, what they can't buy, they destroy it, and that includes your life and your home Isolde.
Do you hate Mr James Peck too? Do you see him as a traitor?
Like the rest of my countrymen ExBrain, I value freedom and being British. They are ... you're not! End of story.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 07:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ 133 you're not Asian, I'm not Canadian. So what are you trying to say?
Jun 15th, 2011 - 07:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0@ Redhoyt
Jun 15th, 2011 - 08:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0“I value freedom and being British”
The American says...
In my country you can insult our presidents (excepts if he is not Bush I should clarify) and nothing happens, that is real freedom and democracy.
The British thinks a little bit and thinks again...
Oh yes is just like the freedom we British enjoy in our proud nation an example to the world for democracy.
The American asks. So Sir Can you insult your Queen openly as we do here with our presidents?
The British thinks... thinks... a little more of think and reply...
Oh! I thought we were talking about insulting your presidents. Do we?
Ha ha ha ha
You have a strange sense of humour Dim. If you are asking wether we can criticise the Queen, the answer is yes. Happens all the time, mostly by those with Reublican leanings.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Insulting our politicians is a national sport!
Nico #130,
Jun 15th, 2011 - 10:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Why is what might or might not have happened to a few dozen people almost 200 years ago more important than what happens to almost 3000 people today?”
“Justice, have you ever heard about that? ”
“The right of 12 people cannot be taken away by 1000, 2000, 3000, etc.
The same can happen with 3000 being pushed way for lets say 10.000 and then 100.000 pushing away the 10.000 and we can go like this forever and the last can say the same as you are saying now.”
...........................
So, Nico,
what do we do about the rights of the South American and North American native populations that were being disposessed and destroyed as peoples at exactly the same time (1830s) that these 12 gauchos were asked to stay in the Falkland Islands?
Your question is pertinent: What do we do about them, and for them, having taken away their ancestral lands and killed off 95% of them?
@GeoffWard
Jun 15th, 2011 - 11:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Easy we should make a claim to The Kingdom of Spain for a compensation lets say 14 trillions dollars plus interest for all the calamities they have done, the gold, silver and other stuff they stole from these lands and also ask for the confiscation of all properties, assets, etc. of Juan Carlos I de España King of Spain.
That would be a good start.
Imagine what would be the amount of the claim to Britain after that.
: )
What has Spain got to do with it? They lost in 1771 !
Jun 15th, 2011 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thats easy, the figure would be nil, we don't owe you fcuk all.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you blame the Spanish in Madrid, the Spanish that did all the nasty deeds looks at you from the mirror each day, it certainly isn't you that can make such claims to compensation, but the downtrodden native indians that might be left after the slaughter.
I know you're dim, but your last comment shows that for you being dim is a full-time occupation.
I invite all readers to see this note that I did in the Argentine site with more visits in the country:
Jun 15th, 2011 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/11121944/Bienvenido-a-la-Patria-James-Peck.html
Translation to English
http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/11121944/Bienvenido-a-la-Patria-James-Peck.html
Xbarilox: “Argentina is not making a fuss. This is a claim of sovereignty, nothing more nothing less. Why are you so angry about Argentina's claim of sovereignty?”
Jun 15th, 2011 - 12:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If it were just a sovereignty claim, simply words, I would not be angry. But it is backed up by actions such as preventing Falkland flagged vessels from entering Argentine ports, pressuring shipping companies into stopping their trips to the islands and a general refusal of the Argentine government to respect the islanders' wishes.
I've lived in the islands all my life and see these actions as threatening. Of course there will be no war, and nor will Argentina's pressure cause the collapse of the Falklands' economy, but they could make life hard and it is for this reason that I am angry at the sovereignty claim.
Nicodin - I was not saying that the rights of a few people are less important than the rights of many. Two wrongs don't make a right and long-dead people have different rights to those still alive. If those who were around in 1833 were still alive, I would want their wishes to be followed. But they died a long time ago and it is impossible to know what they wanted for the Falklands when they were alive.
Justice means punishing those responsible. I'm not responsible for whatever happened in 1833. Nor were my parents, or their parents. Just as you did not kill any indians in Patagonia, nor did your parents or grandparents. You want to punish me for something my very distant ancestors may have done?
The outcome matters to me because I live here and I stand to lose certain freedoms that I have grown up with (I've been to Argentina often, so I do know what I'm talking about). What do you, personally, stand to lose by not having your flag flying over the islands?
Taringa! one of my fav sites ever...
Jun 15th, 2011 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is an interesting story, don't miss it, thanks for sharing it
I invite all readers to see this note that I did in the Argentine site with more visits in the country:
Jun 15th, 2011 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Poke it up your arris,thank you
So, Nico (130 -137-138),
Jun 15th, 2011 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you are indigenous indian, one of the 1.3% of Argentinians who should benefit from what you suggest.
Or are you really one of the 97% of Argentineans who should be doing your suggested paying-out to the damaged remains of a populated country and its people?
Statistically, you are the latter, and you seem to have blocked out your reality and your family's responsibility for today's situation.
Whether your ancestory is Spanish or Italian or something else is immaterial, your peoples did these things.
And they have been done all over the world by peoples from elsewhere since time immemorial - the only difference being that in the 19th Century certain colonizing peoples made a real art of indigenous genocides.
The unique South American truth about the Falkland Islands is that these destructions of peoples were *not* done *there* by Spaniards, British, Argentineans, or any other colonizers.
*Face your truths* about your Argentinean homeland,
and accept that TFI - uniquely amongst South American nations - has not destroyed, decimated or otherwise damaged pre-existing indigenous societies.
It is the only South American community untainted by the guilt of colonizing destructions.
#144: Sticky, I'm from Uruguay and taringa is quite popular over here
Jun 15th, 2011 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the story is very touching, sad to read that he was chased for not being able to express his opinion. I think there must be several stories like this and after he was persuaded, he was welcomed, very kind of you!
@stakeholder
Jun 15th, 2011 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And who is saying that you are going to be punished?
Do you see for example James Peck being punished?
“What do you, personally, stand to lose by not having your flag flying over the islands?”
Well its is easy drop your flag there and you can have a happy life. What do you personally stand to lose by not having UK flag flying over the islands?
@GeoffWard
Genocide and crime against humanity never expire in Argentina so we can easy prosecute and claim against Spanish genocide if we want to do so.
Spanish victims of the Franco dictatorship are claiming for justice in Argentineans courts as Spanish courts refuse to prosecute and investigate responsible in Spain (Universal jurisdiction).
You write a lot but always say little, seems you still live in the times of colonies.
The level of indoctrination British have is really amazing you only have to see the case of Ronald Arthur Biggs. He robbed her majestic, he was prosecuted and found guilty he escaped and ended up in Brazil.
Britain by all means tried to extradite him from Brazil, he enjoyed all the protection of the Brazilian law, from criminal to become someone respectable.
He lives more years in Brazil than all those free years in Britain.
But in the end when he saw the chance to be near to face his creator he desired to go back to UK even having to face jail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Biggs
I think there is not much to say about British mentality and their dependence of nanny queen and little island.
How can you have a serious conversation about democracy, freedom, colonies, rights, etc. with people with this mentality?
Now Geoff what is your excuse to be in Brazil and don’t have returned to Britain?
Noting personal mate just facts.
: )
But in the end when he saw the chance to be near to face his creator he desired to go back to UK even having to face jail.
Jun 15th, 2011 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Could of been worse, and ended up in a argie jail
The violent deaths of four inmates in Argentine prisons in recent weeks confirmed the “systematic” violation of human rights in the country's penitentiaries, according to human rights activists.
The Coordinating Committee against Police and Institutional Repression (CORREPI), an organisation for families of the victims of police brutality, has documented 2,826 deaths since the restoration of democracy in this South American country in December 1983, up to October 2009.
Of those fatalities, 33 percent took place in prisons, juvenile detention centres or police station holding cells. A considerable number of the deaths were attributed to suicides or fights between inmates, but CORREPI says that prison authorities played at least an incitement role in these.
CORREPI says that abusive treatment in prisons occurs all over the country, but is particularly serious in two provinces: Buenos Aires, home to 34 percent of Argentina's 38.5 million people, and the western province of Mendoza.
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=49979
@147: “And who is saying that you are going to be punished?””
Jun 15th, 2011 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You said it Nico. You want justice for the perceived displacement of some people from the Falklands. As far as I understand this would, at worst, involve exiling the Falklands' population to Britain. At best, it would mean the application of Argentine law and government over people who do not want that. Jamie Peck is not being punished, for the obvious reason that he is more sympathetic to the Argentine point of view than most islanders. Others (myself included) have already been punished for trying to enter Argentina with a Falkland passport, or going to the Falklands by ship without permission from Argentina (several thousand $ fine -sounds like punishment to me).
About the flag issue, you didn't answer my question and already told you what I stand to lose: the way of life that I've grown up with. I doubt we would be allowed to continue using the same rules and regulations as under British sovereignty. Would the Argentine government allow us to celebrate liberation day?
The point is that things would change. After a generation or two everyone would get used to it. No point in complaining about something that happened to your ancestors beyond living memory, is there? But it would cause a lot of distress for a lot of people and many freedoms would be lost. Like I said, I've been to Argentina a few times so I know the differences. How much of the Falklands have you seen?
I guess what I'm trying to understand here is why the sovereignty issue matters enough for you to completely disregard the wishes of a population. I've told you why I don't want the Falklands to be Argentine - nothing to do with the flag or the Queen or my imperialistic British roots, just the loss of personal freedoms and the desire to make my own choices.
By the way, what is taringa?
I have to registered myself but it was worth since most of the time I check this page to laugh a little with the stupids point of view by many of you guys. I mean, it is cool to learn from each others point of view but it seems that you (mostly british people-Islanders) are never gonna change the way you think... but at least we try our best to convince you how wrong you are... For now, we are making baby steps... Did you hear about the islander who recieve an argentinian ID!!! So cool! As I said, little by little!
Jun 15th, 2011 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But it seems that you (mostly British people-Islanders) are never going to change [the pot calling the kettle black again]
Jun 15th, 2011 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0it’s just jealously and hatred and very much envious of their British counterpart ,
The British have changed , it is Argentina who has to act like a child, just look at your own constitution on the Falkland’s,
but let’s be honest , it was Argentina that invaded a peace loving innocent community, and it was the British, a tiny little country that came all the way down there and kicked you out, and you haven’t stopped crying since .
Leave the islands alone, go and claim Chile or brazil or some other poor sod, , you lost so live with it ,
Hahaha! You see, I said you are never gonna change, but I respect your point of view...nevertherless I will say you invade the country first and kicked out the Argentinian goverment from the Island back in 1832... and you will say ”and you invade the island (ok, you already did say this) bla bla bla“ and then you will talk about the right of the free determination of the people... more bla bla bla” and I will say that land belongs to us... so that people have no right but we welcome them to become argentinian if they want... and we will send you tons of meat! Yeah! then you will say“ I wanna be an Argie too” and we will go to a bar in Downtown BA and drink some Guiness (i know they are Irish) and we will laugh and return to Malvinas safe! Cool? dont you think... And We did not make any war!!! Just wait and see!!!
Jun 16th, 2011 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0and we will send you tons of meat!
Jun 16th, 2011 - 06:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0I think your own people need it more.
At least 10 indigenous children have died from malnutrition in north-west Argentina this year
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12973543
@ stakeholder
Jun 16th, 2011 - 08:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0I said “justice” meaning that 12 or 5000 is as well wrong. I never say to punish or to exile anyone this was your own assumption.
“the application of Argentine law and government over people who do not want that”
Argentina laws are the most up to date and modern in the world.
“Others (myself included) have already been punished for trying to enter Argentina with a Falkland passport, or going to the Falklands by ship without permission from Argentina (several thousand $ fine -sounds like punishment to me).”
Well you have to blame London and your local authorities for that when they desired to play the tough guys in the movie. You should not bother an elephant even if he is sleeping because if he rolls over you get crashed. And guess who is the elephant down here?
“About the flag issue, you didn't answer my question and already told you what I stand to lose: the way of life that I've grown up with”
And what is your style of life? Oh horror how can you be so degraded to live in places like that?
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
The flag issue is for govt. level there is nothing in Arg. law that forbids anyone to have a British flag, German flag, Italian, flag, Spanish flag, etc. on his house.
Can you see the German flag in this pic? http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/4628/ba35hq.jpg
“and many freedoms would be lost”
can you give me and example of that please? because after having been living in many countries the level of freedom in Arg is just excellent.
YOYO - Argentina has never owned the Falkland Islands. A couple of months in 1832 is not sufficient to establish sovereignty. Particularly as we had owned the islands since 1765 (or indeed 1690).
Jun 16th, 2011 - 09:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dim, you don't get any brighter. The freedom to be British would be lost ........ and that is just too important to lose :-)
Nico @ 147:
Jun 16th, 2011 - 09:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0”Now Geoff, what is your excuse to be in Brazil and don’t have returned to Britain?
Nothing personal mate, just facts.
: )”
.....................
Sheer serendipity.
A lifetime in unis in anthropology & the environmental sciences, travelled the world & saw much, retired, new wife a Brasilian/Brit, & re-settlement in one of the very few countries that can radically change the future of the world.
If Brasil gets it right many nations will survive intact,
if Amazonia's forests disappear in the race for the dollar (soy/beef/biofuel), huge hurtful changes to peoples will happen bigger & faster than would otherwise be the case.
The forest removal is accelerating again - politics, corruption, collusions, immunity & impunity,
and the balances of Development and the environment are being used as pawns in the internal politics of the country.
Return to UK? - possibly/probably. Children, grandchildren, PhDs & family careers.
Nico et al, I'm giving more than I should on an open line, please don't abuse it.
Redhoyt, just tell me where you are and i will send you a money gift card so you can buy history books!!! hahahahahaha!
Jun 16th, 2011 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, British freedom is important, we are not talking about taking away that... from UK. Since Las Malvinas are not the UK there is no freedom that could be taken away because it does not exist! and again... it was not 2 months, there were 22 years (remember that we became Argentina in 1810... but spain already had more that 150 years of sovereignty rights before that so if we put them together that would be almost the time you squatted! the island (the word in spanish is OKUPA)
Free lesson for you today! be nice and come to visit us anytime, there is no bad feelings against you here in Mi Buenos Aires Querido!
@GeoffWard
Jun 16th, 2011 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0If you are so educated why your nationalism and cultural dependence of Britain turn you so blind?
You said that you are involved in environmental sciences and anthropology so I guess you know the miserable behaviour in human being history.
So why you always put the blame for corruption on Brazilians and not to the greedy businessman that pays the bribes coming from New York, London or Frankfurt to give some examples?
Tell me where is a financial centre and I will tell you where the corruption starts. Is that simple.
In Brazil they take over Amazonia's forests while in UK and US they take the money from taxpayers through bailouts to finance their operations Worldwide
Well at least we have coincidences about the bad thing that is the soy business in the region promoted by Monsanto (from producer of chemical weapons used in Vietnam to the monopoly of food production) G. Soros (the monster that Brits created in London and broke the pound to king of the soy)
Is not amazing how all roads go to 2 financial centres? Like in times of the Roman Empire.
: )
YOYO - it's you that needs a history lesson. Your country rebelled in 1810, was recognised by Britiain in 1825 and by Spain in 1850.
Jun 16th, 2011 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina did not inherit Spain's claim as the islands were already ours! Uti Possidetis Juris does not apply (apparently you need a lesson in international law as well as history).
The British are not squatters, we are owners, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it !
Redhoyt, as as Said before! Learn Spanish so you can learn more interest thinks rathen than what this newspaper and the telegraph back in home land could teach you.
Jun 16th, 2011 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Recognition of indepence were in 1822 by USA, 1824 by UK and 1830 by France... (it does not have anything to do on what we are talking about).
thanks for bringing the principle UTI POSSIDETIS JURIS! that F*ck yeah applies!!! It was recognize by your country (UK) in 1825 after celebrating our first international treaty! of course, then in 1832 you came our with you crappy history about you discovering the island... bla bla bla...
I will insist, The MAlvinas belong to spain, due to the Uti possidetis Juris we recived them as well the entire argentina territory and since 1820 there was an argentinian Flag in the island thanks to David Jewett.
So it seems you will need to buy some history books and about law lessons, Im a law student my self (and i have a test todayand i have to go back to study) so it is very cool talking to you all (even dought most of you are wrong) but at least we give you the chance to talk and discuss about it while UK and its PM does not want to talk about it! Gracias
and remember that you are invite to come to BA a visit us anytime, no bad feelings at all because... in fact... you all are argentnan for being born in argentina (ius Soli) cool, don you think? I know I made your day!
Nico, you illustrate why Falkland Islanders don't want to be Argentine. You do not have respect for our way of life. You don't understand how things would change here under Argentine rule. I already told you they would change, but you still do not believe me. You imply that we should want to live under Argentine law and that, in itself, show that you have no respect for the fact that we don't want to. There are no buildings in the Falklands like the ones you posted links to and yet you expect people who have never lived in such a place to want to? You expect us to accept and like your laws and lifestyle just because you like them.
Jun 16th, 2011 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I agree that there is a good level of personal freedom in Argentina, but there is more in the Falklands. Less paperwork and ship and aircraft movements are not as strictly monitored and controlled, if you want some examples. I respect your pride in the way Argentina is run, please let us be proud of the way we run the Falklands. What we are not happy with, we like to change, ourselves.
You pass the flag issue on to the “government level”, but you still have not told me about your level. Why does it matter to you? Visit the islands, meet people, see the lifestyle.
Nico, @ 158
Jun 16th, 2011 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UK Bribery Act 2010 is Criminal Law to be effective from next month, 1st July 2011
The Act repeals all previous statutory and common law provisions in relation to bribery, instead replacing them with the crimes of
• bribery,
• being bribed,
• the bribery of foreign public officials, and
• the failure of a commercial organisation to prevent bribery on its behalf.
The penalties for committing a crime under the Act are
• a maximum of 10 years' imprisonment,
• unlimited fines, and
• confiscation of property,
• disqualification of directors.
*** The Act has a near-universal jurisdiction,
allowing for the prosecution of an individual or company with links to the United Kingdom,
regardless of where the crime occurred.
Described as “the toughest anti-corruption legislation in the world”, concerns have been raised that
• the Act's provisions criminalise behaviour that is acceptable in the global market, and
• puts British business at a competitive disadvantage.
This is a REAL problem, as most of the nations of the world demand a percentage of the contact costs to be deposited in ‘an unnamed Swiss bank account’ as ‘the cost of doing business’ in that country.
This is, of course, how politicians become millionaires so quickly in many countries.
And this Act is what I want for Brasil.
Statute, and then observance backed by the full power of Brasilian Law and by the Presidenta.
@GeoffWard
Jun 16th, 2011 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Well we have law for Bribe, but I like the universal prosecution stuff you have mentioned above.
We should implement this but to Mercosur level so any multinational or local paying Bribes in Mercosur can be prosecuted here and send him to jail. Plus the charges that he can face in his own country. And not excuses for countries like US, UKI, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc to provide protection to their friends.
BTW I like 20 years why not? And without the Benefit to remind free until he waits for the trial. Ha ha
Can we beat him a bit? Or is too much?
: )
@163 Can we beat him a bit? Or is too much? .. Go ahead Nico!! I give you permission !!!!!!! or we can give him a plane ride . ;-))))))
Jun 16th, 2011 - 04:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0: )
Jun 16th, 2011 - 05:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0beating sounds good ; )
What I am really rooting for though is 'the chicken, not the egg' . . . . some (most ?) government officials are colluding and instigating, and creating/sustaining the trading environment besed on these corrupt practices.
Ten years jail here in Brasil means 2.5 years, and much of that will be served in special accommodation well away from common criminals and bars on the windows.
I want to see these Government criminals serve hard time in state jails.
YOYO - Uti Possidetis Juris was not recognised by the majority of south American countries until the conference of 1848, unfortunately Argentina was absent from that one. So NO, you did not inherit anything. Now Uti Possidetis De Facto has been recognised since Roman times and would certainly cover 1982, if not 1833 or indeed 1771.
Jun 17th, 2011 - 03:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0David Jewett was a pirate employed by BA who attempted to claim some wrecks on the islands by saying that they belonged to BA. Strangely he forgot to pass the message back to BA and in any case there were already two claimants to the islands. So no, Jewett is worth nothing.
As for my understanding of Law - I already have a Honours in Law (LL.B(Hon)) and a Masters in Philosophy (M.Phil) .... and you need to study more.
Your understanding of history is flawed ..... and as for your law studies, you have a long way to go on Uti Possidetis :-)
#149 stakeholder
Jun 17th, 2011 - 03:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Taringa is a quite popular website among the spanish community. One of the most popular websites around the globe. But it is in spanish. there are plenty of interesting articles
Rehoyt, dont worry, we'll get there... it is a matter of time. dont you see that? 28 years ago Everyone think argentina was crazy about going to war againgst UK, USA got your Back and The UN requested an inmediatly withdraw of Argentina troops over the land that was ours: Malvinas. Only PEru supported us and Chile betraid us.
Jun 17th, 2011 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 02011 UN advise for both countries to sit and talk aabout the Malvinas, Not only PEru supported us but Chile, Uruguay, Brazil, Colombia, all south america nations, central America nation as well, mexico, Canada an USA.
When your little girl primer minister asked to back them up Obama say: Cryer baby, stop crying, sit and discuss with Argentina about it!
Not Only UN is backing us up, as well the UNASUR and OEA!!! They wven mentionif we go to war argentina is not gonna be leave alone like in the 1983! so I dont really give a F*ck about what you and all the people in our island have to say about it, Im pretty sure that in the next 28 years there is ahuge chance that the Argentina Flag waves in the Island!
About History.. have you ever heard that people is writting by those who win??? So, the bunch of cr*p you mention about Hstory, the possesion of UK back in the 17 hundres as well mentioning Mr Jewett as a Pirat? what that F*ck men!!! you whole country is biuld up from Piracy!!! you became rich due to this!!! but as the matter of fact, I still thinking you are wrong! so it is sad that you have a master in law and dont speak any other lenguage because it would help to expand your knowledge! that way you could learn more than the “glourius” Queen has to teach about!
and Law hounours??? you well know that Law is very flexible and you could probe a fact depending on the side you are on! So if I said Uti Possidetis applies, it does and we could sit and discuss for hours about it!
but again, keep in mind everything we have accomplished over the past 28 years...and even better think what we could accomplish in the next 28 years! scary (4 u) isnt it?
“They wven mentionif we go to war argentina is not gonna be leave alone like in the 1983”
Jun 17th, 2011 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If Argentina goes to war again over the islands, be assured that you will be alone again. No nation is going to be the aggressor.
Also you should really learn what piracy means. It's is impossible for a nation to engage in piracy by the very definition of the word.
“28 years there is ahuge chance that the Argentina Flag waves in the Island! ”
Just like you was sure of that 28 years ago. Nothings changing.
Hahaha! As I said before, we are supported by all America! I still thinking war is not an option (ok!) but wthat Im saying is that we made a lot a progress using democratic ways and sooner or later The Argentina flag will vawe in the Island!
Jun 17th, 2011 - 09:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Since today is friday and we want to chill from a week of hard work , i will leave you (speacially you Reddie-O!) a good song to listen! Is from the good Irish people! an all song that says a few things as, please watch it! you will love it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BniyC33QdjM
here some of the Lyrics on the song!
He had heard of Irish hands in the noble gallant bands
That helped to free the land called Argentina
He had heard with great acclaim the Patricios name
And fame, when in 1806 the British came for slaughter
And to this very day in the Argentine they say
The English ran away from Buenos Aires
To the islands further down and they took them for the crown --
Las Islas Malvinas Argentina
We remember William Brown and his land of great renown
He, invader of the islands from your country
When 1833 where by pirates force to flee
And in Ireland sure we know the story fully
And the people that went too to the Argentine when new,
To escape the English laws and wars and famine
They proved a loyal crew just like all the Irish do--
Las Islas Malvinas Argentina
The old colonial days and the cruel English ways
With her thunder plunder we will teach the natives
For the Brits are going to war just like Whitelock did before
With her ships & guns & drums & flags & banners
In the Empire days of old when they murdered for the gold
And paraded it around the streets of London
Oh no human rights were given to the natives dead or living--
Las Islas Malvinas Argentina
With the Empire tumbling down let no Paddies back the crown--
Las Islas Malvinas Argentina
@170
Jun 17th, 2011 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argies got talent
Sing your way to claiming the Falklands,lol
@170 YO_Argentino
Jun 18th, 2011 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say you study law, you know a lot about history and read a lot of books on the issue of the Malvinas Argentinas. You also say you know a lot about the applicability of the UTI POSSIDETIS IURE principle.
Question 1: Did you know that while the UK won´t discuss the matter at a table directly with Argentina, the UK is ready and open to receive Argentina´s claim for sovereignty at the ICJ and submit the case to that body, which is the UN institution to deal with “Disputes between countries”?
Question 2: Why is it then that Argentina does not deem the possibility of taking the case to the ICJ to rule about it?
Comment aside: In previous posts, I mentioned that in my view, Britain systematically applied a successful policy of “Divide and Exploit” in Latin America, “stirring the pot” where possible to get economic deals to suit the interests of the British Crown and the British Empire where they could not get to own the lands (caused the split of Uruguay from Las Provincias Unidas, the war against Paraguay, their supporting the Chileans in the Guano War while pressing Argentina to remain neutral in that war, etc, etc). Guyana, Belice, and their “Falklands” (our Islas Malvinas) were cases where they could invade and keep the lands for exploitation. So, most of the current “grudges” between S.American countries, Argentina vs Chile; Chile vs Peru and Bolivia; Uruguay vs Argentina were somehow and partly caused by the Brits (I say partly, because we South Americans must recognize and share the part of the blame for our disunion, disorganization, and failure to stay together against the foreign powers like Britain).
Final point: Even if the British did stir the pot and all that, they say have documentary proofs that the Islands were theirs and now they bring up the self-determination principle of the Britishers there to secure the possession. HOW can Argentina get to defeat such strong arguments?
@166 Red ...
Jun 18th, 2011 - 05:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0History is a set of lies agreed upon
Napoleon Bonaparte
@zethe
Jun 18th, 2011 - 07:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0“If Argentina goes to war again over the islands, be assured that you will be alone again”
Is all what we need to defeat Britain : )
#173
Jun 18th, 2011 - 10:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Bonaparte should have said
'History is a set of lies agreed upon by the victors.'
I'm surprised he didn't.
@175 you are absolutely right!
Jun 18th, 2011 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Geoff, allow me to add the quote that I love the most :
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.”
George S. Patton
A true poet and a philosopher ..... lol!!
: )
Jun 18th, 2011 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here is a little history for you guys (it seems History is not tought by the UK board of education):
Jun 18th, 2011 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are wrong and i will explained you why; please do not cry after this.
1st: ICJ: why dont we go there?
A-In 1955 after UK submmitted to court the soveragnity of Arg and Chile over the antartica, Argentina (and Chile) rejected its jurisdiction on the matter of territorial disputes.
B-Minquiers & Ecreho Island case. France was able to show they soveragnity rights, still ICJ favored UK in this one. (and you still naive believing we will get a fair trial)
C- The UTI POSSIDETIS IURE (for you reddie-0) ICJ established it as a pricipple in case El Salvador v. Honduras. Please lawyer, do not cry and study more!
The Facts
Let me show you how week your (UK) arguments are. (I have at least 6 point that will teach you how strong our claim is)
1. The discovery of the Island:
Island were discovered in 1502 by a portuguese sailor traveling with Americo Vespucio.The 1st Spanish to see the island in 1522 was an Spanish sailor named Esteban Gomez. In 1580 Sarmiento de Gamboa took posession over the Strait of Magellanas as well the island near to this. In 1600 a Dutch Sailor called Sebala de Weert disembraked for the first time. In 1764 Louis Antonine de Bougainville establisht a French Colony Called Port Louis that was trabsfered to Spain in 1767, after that this is name PUERTO SOLEDAD.In 1766 UK establish a clandestine colony called Port Egmont and in 1770.Spain made UK to abbandon the Island until 1771 that Spain authorized to restablished the town without giving any possesion rights. The Island was left in 1774 due to monetary reasons. The spaniard left the Island in 1811. After independence of Argentina, we sent a Ship to claim our sovereing rights over the island in 1820 and in 1823 there was a governator established in the Island. in 1826 a town was established and in 1829 Mr Vernet was designated as a commander over the island. then in 1832 UK roobed them from Argentina.
”Let me show you how week your (UK) arguments are. (I have at least 6 point that will teach you how strong our claim is)“
Jun 18th, 2011 - 03:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Discovery isnt our main argument, you've failed already before i've even read the whole post.
”Mr Vernet was designated as a commander over the island”
Mr Vernet, the man who on three occasions asked for British permission to live on the islands, asked for British govenance and told the British his intrests were PURELY commercial.
Thanks Zethe, I needed more than 2000 letters!!!
Jun 18th, 2011 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 02. Bula menor Inter caetera of 1493. By this Pope Alecander VI gave possesion to Spain for the land discovered and those to be discovered from the Meridian 31º West (las Malvinas were inside of that Bula)
3.Utrecht Treaty (1713) Article 8.“...it is hereby further agreed and concluded, that neither the Catholic King, nor any of his heirs and successors whatsoever, shall sell, yield, pawn, transfer, or by any means, or under any name, alienate from them and the crown of Spain, to the French, or to any other nations whatever, any lands, dominions, or territories, or any part thereof, belonging to Spain in America...” Because of this traty UK left the island in 1770
4.Saint Lawrence convention of 1790 prohibited the establishment of any new colonies in south America
5-C- The UTI POSSIDETIS IURE. By this principle all the posetion of the spanish crown in America were transfered to the new countries created (Before -1983- ICJ used the the UTI POSSIDETIS in the case of Burkina Faso V. Mali to create the new frontier between countries). According to the ICJ in the case of El Salvador V. Honduras (1986), the islands from the caribbean gulf belong to El Salvador based on the sucesion from Spain and rejected Nicaragua claims.
6-I trully believe that you should be crying right now because you realized how wrong you were, but let suppossed that the island did belong to Spain and the abbandoned them in 1811 then there is other principle that may apply: Res Nullius which means: nobody's property! therefore if the island were left alone and Argentina took them in 1820 and established a goverment there that is enough proof to explained you why UK does not have any rights over the island!
Well, I hope you can see the truth better now that i you learned more about our claim over the Island. As you can see, UK has a very weak arguments
YO_Argentino: “Island were discovered in 1502 by a portuguese sailor traveling with Americo Vespucio”.
Jun 18th, 2011 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who was that sailor? Evidence? Although I have no evidence, I think we can presume that also in 1502 a few thousand indigenous people lived in southern South America. They fought each other. Then they fought the Spanish and whoever else came onto their land. Then some Spanish fought more Spanish and declared themselves not Spanish any more. The ex-Spanish fought amongst themselves and became several different ex-Spanish people. Over time, they gained credibility and recognition. Now they are not ex-Spanish or United Province of the River Plate, they are Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, etc.
Why are you so hung up on the past? The situation in the Falklands was similar, except there were no indigenous inhabitants. British, French, Spanish, American, they all fought (though by no means as much as in South America). There was no more fighting there until 1982.
In a previous post, Argentino, you invited islanders to come to visit you in BA and there would be no hard feelings. I should hope not, because we've never done anything to you. I've visited friends there several times. Your turn to come to the islands. I can't guarantee a warm welcome from everyone. Oddly, some are still a bit touchy from 1982. But you should come so you can develop a balanced point of view.
Those Argentine friends of mine were probably about your age, uni students. They had never been taught anything about the islanders. Come learn for yourself, studying and quoting law is not going to teach you anything about us.
-Minquiers & Ecreho Island case. France was able to show they soveragnity rights, still ICJ favored UK in this one. (and you still naive believing we will get a fair trial)
Jun 18th, 2011 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So why go to the ICJ over the pulp mills?
THE HAGUE, 23 January 2007. The International Court of Justice (ICJ),principal judicial organ of the United Nations, today gave its decisionon the request for the indication of provisional measures submitted byUruguay in the case concerning Pulp Mills on the River Uruguay (Argentina v. Uruguay).
In its Order, the Court finds, by 14 votes to one, that “thecircumstances, as they now present themselves to the Court, are notsuch as to require the exercise of its power under Article 41 of theStatute to indicate provisional measures”.
http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=1891&p1=3&p2=1&case=135&p3=6
stakeholder, Thanks for the invitation. I will go there one day to visit and get to know the people. This situation really sucks you know, because you and me can argue about our Countries political issues but at the end we still people! Having different points of view doesnt prevent us from sitting at a bar, chating, drinking some stout beers and watch a world cup game between Argentina wth Messi and England with Rooney (no doubt we will beat you!!! hahaha!)
Jun 18th, 2011 - 04:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I will go and visit the island not this, but next vacations
Argentino, at last, a polite and respectful answer. Thanks for that. Now, if we pretend for a moment that I'm a reasonably open-minded person, what history texts would you recommend if you wanted to convince me that the Argentine point of view is correct and the British one is wrong?
Jun 18th, 2011 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Stakeholder, i did some research and I found this books (I read some of them and will read the rest on my vacations)
Jun 18th, 2011 - 11:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some of them are in Spanish
Historical
MALVINAS: LO QUE NO CUENTAN LOS INGLESES (1833-1982) - por Solari Yrigoyen, Hipólito
Talks about the relations between Argentina and ths islanders from 1833 to 1982
EL GAUCHO RIVERO Y la conspiración para apoderarse de Malvinas
Autor: Armando S. Fernández
This book talks about a gaucho rebelion that took place after UK invation.
Sovereignity
This book is available in internet and is in english. i found this one of the best to explain our point of view, then there is an essay i read a little but is available online as well is in english.
Key to an enigma: British sources disprove British claims to the Falkland/Malvinas Islands
Angel M. Oliveri López
http://books.google.com/books?id=-u1ygYbRBHgC&pg=PR3&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
Sovereignty and Decolonization of the Malvinas (Falkland) Islands
Adrián F. J Hop
http://books.google.com/books?id=-u1ygYbRBHgC&pg=PR3&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
A Militar perspective from the war
These books are one of the best from a Aviation soldier:
COLECCIÓN MALVINAS
“MALVINAS - LOS HALCONES NO SE LLORAN”
Autor: Com. Pablo M. Carballo y Promoción LXXIV de Cadetes de la EAM
“ECOS EN LA NIEBLA” LA REALIDAD DE LA FICCIÓN
Autor: Com. Oscar L. Aranda Durañona
“HALCONES DE MALVINAS” Experiencia de aquellos que lucharon con Dios en el alma y un halcón en el corazón
Autor: Com. Pablo M. Carballo
I hope this helps you to understand us better. as well, if you want to recommend a book or a series of books, please let me know. i will read them in my vacation!
thanks man for being open minded!
@178/180/185 YO_Argentino. I agree open-mindedness for all is good
Jun 18th, 2011 - 11:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Other views counterbalance your views. For instance:
1. In 1771 Spain and UK agreed to return to the situation before the Spanish attack. The ship, the Heroina, was a privateer ship, with an American captain called Hewitt, under whose command pirated the the American ship the Rampart and the Portuguese ship the Carlota. Captain Jewett was charged with piracy by the Portuguese in his absence
2. The Pope cannot give Spain lands that the Pope did not own. South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands are not included in the treaty of Tordesilla. This treaty was between Spain and Portugal only and not recognised by the independent countries the Pope said he gave to Spain nor was the treaty recognised by any other country who did not benefit from the treaty
3. The UK did not chose to leave in 1770; the Spanish used force
4. Except the Saint Lawrence Convention also agreed that if Spain allowed another country to colonise South American, then the UK could colonise South America too. Also the Saint Lawrence Convention was between Spain and UK, not AR and UK. AR has no rights under this treaty because Argentina is not Spain
5. The UK own the Malvinas by the principle of Uti Possidetis too. The AR fought a war of aggression against the British in 1982. The AR lost and the UK won. By the principle of Uti Possidetis, the Malvinas belong to the UK because they possessed them at the end of the war & continously for about 178 years
6. The Malvinas are a British colony and because of this by international agreement are subject to UN General Assembly resolution 1514(XV), which provides the right for the people living on the Malvinas who are subject to British colony rule the right to freely determine their political status and own economic, social and cultural development. Argentina voted for the Malvinas to be included in Resolution 1514(XV)
There are two sides to every story. Both have their merits & flaws
The “gallant” El Gaucho Rivero.
Jun 19th, 2011 - 11:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Search the Internet for the account of one Thomas Helsby, who docunmented the Gaucho Murders in Port Louis in August 1833.
There was no “rebellion”, the British did not establish a permanent presence till 1834, there was no Brits to “rebel” against.
Rivero led a gang of thugs who murdered the 5 senior members of Vernet's settlement. The actions effectively put an end to Vernet's venture and cleared the way for fully fledged colonisation by Britain. Without these events, the Falklands would never have had a permanent naval outpost and would probably never have had the colony that followed.
There was no Gaucho rebellion, its all a fairy tale.
@Justino cunts
Jun 20th, 2011 - 02:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0And all this what has to do with the fact that US (Your master) tells you to shut up sit down and negotiated the giving back of the islands to us?
Just wonder
US (Your master) tells you to
Jun 20th, 2011 - 06:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0And you too
Under pressure Argentina returns seized cargo from US military plane
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/06/16/under-pressure-argentina-returns-seized-cargo-from-us-military-plane
Lets all hope Christina never realises that she must preface “give us the Falkland Islands” with her Barbie words “Simon says . . .”
Jun 20th, 2011 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0@Sticky
Jun 20th, 2011 - 10:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0You have to be a complete idiot to believe that (well to be honest you are anyway), Argentina gave back the yanks stuff because Obama signed the OAS declaration AKA Malvinas Argentinas.
We are not in the leaking business like you mate.
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