MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Krugman: “when Argentina tried to act as a serious country, it was “a disaster”
Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman took to his blog in the New York Times to say he didn’t see how Argentina’s default could be seen as a cautionary tale for Greece, and questioned a local economist who assured Argentina was not considered “a serious country.” Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesPut three economists in a room and what do you get?
Jun 24th, 2011 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Elaine, it depends where those “economists” studied their practices. Krugman is an ultra keynesian neo-liberal clown.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 08:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The answer is five different theories. : )
Jun 24th, 2011 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It pains me to see someone like him dismiss the collapse of the Argentine economy as something akin to a short-term, minor suffering followed by miraculous economic growth and stability. He should go and listen to the stories of the people that lived through that time. The real, personal tragedies. And Argentina is still paying the price of that very recent crisis. Defaulting - and the country had no choice but to default - still has it marked as financial pariah. (It takes time for confidence to invest to build again).
Greece may well have to default but likening it to pulling a plaster off a wound in order to for it to heal quicker does not even begin to consider the people it will effect for a very long time.
JMO. (As always)
As I typed before, Greece should default, replace it's leaders who do not work for the people, and step out of the Euro. Krugman doesn't want to see that, because it doesn't fit in his world. So far, it doesn't look like Greece will default, but put the pain on it's people with “Austerity measures”, meaning rob them until they die. If the banksters succeed, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Spain and by time..UK are next.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I do not entirely agree with you there. Everyone has to tighten belts when necessary and it is irresponsible to encourage people to live beyond their means and then refuse to take responsibility for their debts; individuals or countries. Defaulting on debts affects the individual hard-working person as well. People that have saved and invested in pensions are effected when countries default. It is easy to look on lenders as large institutions that can carry the loss but behind those big institutions are small individual investors who are robbed when countries default.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 09:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There is no easy way out but I think your predictions are made out of spite rather than a consideration for the individuals that will suffer.
Nobody typed here that there is an easy way out, but there is a way out. What predictions? What I typed is happening. It's good to see the Greek people fighting, but they to put more pressure and they need help from the outside. Do you see that happening? No.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Both were irresponsible. Similar like in Argentina. But the point is, it's not the people's debt. It's debt created from thin air abused by corrupted policians who just added it after wasting the money on the national debt who are the people who will be forced to pay it back. That's part of the Austerity Measures. The more people understand the banking and it's shadow banking system, the more people will understand how to fix it, because the debt is fake, let the banks eat cake, let them go down, take a hit and by time the economy will rise again. who gave us all a good example is Iceland.
correction:
If the banksters succeed, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Spain and by time..UK are next..include the US..the mother of all debt that will explode and were the people will get robbed by creative math.
yes fido, and i suppose Holland will escape it all,
Jun 24th, 2011 - 10:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You always put Britain down, just because of personal hatred,
Great Britain is at this time already giving over 6 billion to poor countries, does that sound like a country that’s about to collapse,
personally i think people underestimate Britain,,, Germany Holland and France may well be economically sound, but to be fair, the EURO was a mugs game, one size does not fit all, and the big three will lose billions trying to shore it up, if the others default then Europe will be hit hard,
And those countries that are tightening their belts may survive, others may well be in for a shock, the best bet for Greece is to leave the euro,
until it sorts out its problems, throwing billions at it , won’t solve the problem, but please, do not underestimate Britain, we are all hurting,
But give us all time, and hopefully Europe may well ride this out, hopefully, at least have some confidence .
You predict the countries that will fail. I don't see it quite the same way, so it is personal prediction.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You seem to forget that the banks you want to see fail have the money of the individuals. If the banks fail, every hard-working individual loses everything. I agree that financial institutions have had too much de-regulation and free-rein to act irresponsibly in the name of greed.
Protesting about cuts is a right but whinging about it is not going to solve the problem. Pay-freezes and cutting costs is with us for a while so we may as well get used to it. Sure, some greedy people will strike to try to get more than others out of the shrinking pot but not many poeple will have sympathy for that behaviour. Ultimately the UK is pretty good in times of adversity with a sense of fair-play. JMO
The title suggests something else aside from the real article , I wounder is there is some “twisting ” from Mercocrap .....
Jun 24th, 2011 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@9 Probably right.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The world has gone through many disasters, destroying some civilised nations and cities , millions have died yet the human race always fights through, we have the instinct to survive,
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Despite all the problems in the world today
I’m sure we will come through it ok
The future is bright.
There is light at the end of the tunnel..
are we getting sentimental?? ;-)
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0mmm well it’s nice to be confidant abet the future,
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0space awaits us, in the decades to come, And the problems will have to be sorted out, can you imagine a bunch of lunatics like us lot running around space, fighting and claiming every bit of dust,
[That was a bit light hearted]
But truthfully wouldn’t it be nice if the whole world got on together and lived in peace,
After all how difficult can it be, ?????????
Briton I don't need to put the UK down, the UK is already down by it's own foolish policies, what I typed before. Something you don't want to see or can't see by your own foolish believes that the UK is rich. In previous comments I already explained why it will only get worse for the UK. You don't want to accept the facts, what is fine with me.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Holland didn't escape the crisis and is still in it, because two of their major banks are in reality insolvent. rather than keeping them alive, they should let them go down and Holland will be fine, though like the Germans,they like this game because it will bring the Euro down what is good for their exports.
Elaine,
I do not predict the countries that will fail. You don't see it quite the same way because don't do your homework about something like you to comment about and learn the facts. Those countries who took the bailout are broke and cannot and will not pay that debt. What will happen to them is simple, they become slaves when the IMF (is USA) snap up their assests for pennies and sell it to their crony friends who will charge more money from the people in those nations who are broke. Does that make sense for you? It seems it does.
“You seem to forget that the banks you want to see fail have the money of the individuals”
Ugh, it seems you don't understand that those banks are BROKE. Greek banks are insolvent and even after more bailouts (the money goes to the other banks to who they owe money) will go BUST. What is the Greek government doing now? Squeeze their own people for life by robbing them from their pensions, gold reserves and other Austerity measurments what won't make the economy grow for years. That is what is happening now include in Ireland, Portugal etc etc.
You also don't want to see what's happening in front of your eyes, just like briton in your beloved UK. They, the banks and crony friends in the government will do the same thing there. It may look negative for you, but that's reality.
that's the million dollar question my dear briton !!
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0.mmm well let’s hope it’s not that expensive to find the answer.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope so
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@14 You drip with venom. Issues, much.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I do my homework but not by reading The Daily Mail.
@13 You are right to be positive. The UK was in dire financial straits after the two World Wars and we saw better times. It will be tough for a while for a lot of people but nothing is forever.
“The UK was in dire financial straits after the two World Wars and we saw better times.”
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You “saw” better times, and went BUST. If it was fine, they wouldn't bailout their own banks and ask for more by printing, printing and printing more money (that's why you have inflation that's getting higher and higher) from thin air. Do you understand that?
I bet you don't even understand that the Bank of England is a PRIVATE BANK that works against the people. From there you keep the “zombie” banks alive, zombie banks are BROKE.
@14 You drip with venom. Issues, much.
Hard huh, to read and accept the truth. It doesn't fit in your head, I understand that. It must be hard for you to accept that you left a broke economy for a broke economy.
It's good to be positive, but it's much better to be realistic, rather act positive while having your head stuck in the sand and refuse to see the facts (truth). This is why Europe (include UK) aren't capable to solve this mess they are in. Same thing happening here in the US. deny deny deny and act as if everything is fine.
Fido (Here boy!) a couple of elementary points. You claim that the Government of Greece does not work for the 'people' This is wrong. Everyone in Greece appears to work for the people .... that's the problem.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the UK. We've been consistently broke since the 14th Century. Hasn't stopped us doing much!
@19 Actually, I am a total realist; I just don't believe in your only version of the future.
Jun 24th, 2011 - 11:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some people are only happy when revelling in the perceived misery of other. Usually because they are miserable people. You must be a joy to be around.
Life will be tough, people will still love and laugh, countries will survive, however much it annoys the hell out of the terminally malicious.
Redhoyt,
Jun 25th, 2011 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not talking about those public workers. The government that was chosen by it's people are now being sold to their debt masters. Great huh..oh wait that already happened to the people in the UK, so it's normal. No big deal.
“Hasn't stopped us doing much!”
Like what? After world war 1, the UK has stopped what it once was, a super power. Now it's nothing than just a pretender while the people will suffer more. I guess that's fine for you all. Again After the PIIGS, UK will enjoy more Austerity measures, and it seems you folks love it.
This Barrionuevo person from the NYT is indeed an Uncle Tom for Latin Americans. He always contrues the region's reality so as to promote the US government's POVs or yet those of international “investors” - people to whom a default isn't really convenient, people's interestes be damned.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 01:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0That Argentina isn't considered a 'serious country' - whatever that is supposed to mean - is just one of the many evidences regartding the folly of establishment's economists. Displaying fast growth and reducing unemployment - as Argentina has done the last 8, 9 years - isn't enough for an economic policy to be considered as successful: at any rate, it isn't enough to earn the praise of sovereign debt agencies and finances publications. Instead, what is really necessary to be seen as serious, is that inflation be kept low and that the finance sector's profits be high, even if this situation doesn't really benefit the real economy's sectors or reduce unemployment.
Fido (here boy!) - err, what happened to WWII and where were your lot?
Jun 25th, 2011 - 01:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Red little girl, after World war two, britain was still no where where it was decades ago. Guess what, still isn't. Accept it, UK stopped being doing much when it comes to innovation except acting like a lapdog of the US..famous is ...Bush: Britain jump, Blair: How high? Pathetic.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 02:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0You didn't answer .... where were your lot?
Jun 25th, 2011 - 06:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0And you are right of course, what's Britain done since 1945?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jul/05/highereducation.uk2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jul/05/highereducation.uk2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jul/05/highereducation.uk2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jul/05/highereducation.uk2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jul/05/highereducation.uk2 (clinical trials only ended in 1945)
..... sitting around weeping over past glories! Bit of a bugger but there you go. So tell me, how's Holland been getting on ?
l think Fido is jealous because there is a British Commonwealth but no Dutch Commonwealth. Oh well, l suppose you've got the Antilles or whatever.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0But that's very good ElaineB, he/she/it does drip with venom.
we are not serious because we make a lot of jokes and laugh a lot.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 12:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Who cares.
Btw 2012 UK's collapse started by National debt crisis.
: )
Argentina suffered a catastrophic financial collapse just 10 short years ago. If we are to believe the comments here the country has completely recovered and is the new powerhouse of South America. So, there is, indeed, life after crisis.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 02:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of course, that is not the entire reality of Argentina but they certainly do not behave like they will spend the rest of eternity in a hellish existence; quite the opposite in my experience. They often remark that they have lived through many ups and downs and will always survive. I like that attitude.
As I have said, anyone who actually visits BA will know all the economic indicators coming out of INDEC are false. If there were truly 8 years of unprecedented growth you would not have carteneros swarming the city every night nor would you have average people complaining they don't have enough money to buy food. It is all a lie that they are telling over and over hoping for everyone to believe.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take a walk down any street in micro center and it will be as dirty and broken as it was 10 years ago with as many children juggling in the streets and begging in the restaurants.
I am glad I don't have to go back for at least another 10 years.
Even so with all those problems Fred from DC looks for work in Argentina.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Casa Lopez South America(not North) is hiring!
@30 Cartoneros Fred, de Carton? ....
Jun 25th, 2011 - 05:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ I am glad I don't have to go back for at least another 10 years”..... or don't go back at all. The country doesn't need us!!!
flipper and fido now in Coventry,
Jun 25th, 2011 - 05:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On a more serious note, i believe Europe has a big hill to climb, but will sooner or later get over it,
As for Libya this will one way or another come to an end, when their leader falls,
Then the British will hopefully concentrate on , other things like sorting Argentina out over the Falkland’s,
Marcos, That Press Release was a long time ago when I thought Argentina had promise. I think a lot of expats move there because it is pretty and cheap but after awhile you see the filthy underbelly and go back home.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is impossible to run a business and do everything legally without having to pay bribes or lie on gov't forms. I stopped doing any business in Argentina 8 years ago when it was recommended to me to do lie on a customs form or just pay a bribe to them.
There are parts I love and I think that is what the Argentinian posters are trying to remember and convey. Now it is gross and will just get dirtier and poorer year after year after year.
BTW Marcos don't you live in The USA? At least you can walk down the streets without having to walk around piles of garbage being picked though and seeing 5 year old kids working on the streets at night. Who knew cardboard and plastic bottles had value?
Fred, I don't need to live in the US, I just need to know how to use Google to see that your “first world nation” is not doing much better in this field.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“One in six Americans is fighting hunger”
http://feedingamerica.org/get-involved/donate.aspx?convio_source=Y11X1GSEM&convio_subsource=hungerinamerica&gclid=CMPu1r_R0akCFQg_bAodixbYOQ
About 15 million children -- one out of every four -- live below the official poverty line.
22% of Americans under the age of 18 -- and 25% under age 12 -- are hungry or at the risk of being hungry.
Everyday 2,660 children are born into poverty; 27 die because of it.
Children and families are the fastest growing group in the homeless population, representing 40%.
http://feedingamerica.org/get-involved/donate.aspx?convio_source=Y11X1GSEM&convio_subsource=hungerinamerica&gclid=CMPu1r_R0akCFQg_bAodixbYOQ
Well the poverty line in 2009 was about U$30,000 more than a your senators make I think? Almost your whole nation is considered to be under our poverty line.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good that you can use Google, too bad you can't vote in a decent government that doesn't steal you blind and your next generation is going to be poorer and less educated that the last.
@36
Jun 25th, 2011 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0During my exchange with West Point cadets in '84, I had the privilege to meet the Director of the Military Academy and his wife. When I introduced myself and told her that I was from Argentina, she responded the Rio was a beautiful city !!! education anyone??
If it wasn't for the Andrew Lloyd Webber play Evita barely anyone from the USA would know about Argentina. It doesn't have anything we need or want so we absolutely don't care about it.
Jun 25th, 2011 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Timmerman ruined any chance of The Obama administration warming up relations. Obama certainly won't be elected again so Argentina will be frozen out of relations for another 8 years. Plus I hear Chavez is almost dead so there goes their only ally.
BTW Marcos, I looked up the USA welfare payments for food for children, if you are under 150% of the poverty line ( so 45K) you get $500/mo, that's a lot of McDonalds so I doubt anyone is really starving. Plus low income kids get free breakfast/lunch and now dinner at school. It seems like your links are just progressives lies trying to get more money out of rich people. Plus I hope they cut those benefits back big time next month huge budget cuts are on their way.YAY!
( 37 ) artillero601
Jun 25th, 2011 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Have fun with this fredbdc turnip……………
I had mine sometime ago………….
Until Isolde ruined the party :-)))
http://en.mercopress.com/2010/12/27/drought-stricken-uruguay-praises-argentina-s-formidable-gesture
(Comments 2 to 47 )
@39
Jun 25th, 2011 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0why is it that some people forget their nationality when they migrate. I don't agree with the government, pero la Patria no se deja de amar o no?
Peronista you ?? no way !! :-))))))))))))))))))))))))
@39
Jun 25th, 2011 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To give you an idea what this moron is talking about , “an American want to be”.
The tax cut to the rich cost this country 770 billion plus 2 wars at 9 billion a month for 10 years?? you do the Math.
Do you know that GE did not pay any taxes last year?? they have @970 tax attorneys to find loopholes ...
With a 9.1% unemployment rate, this guy is cutting welfare???
Tax avoidance by the rich should be the priority of tax collectors; especially in the UK. : )
Jun 25th, 2011 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As long as there is coruption,
Jun 25th, 2011 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the poor will always lose,
and the rich and powerfull get more,
why should they care about the poor
a sad world we live in
Freeeddd wheeere are youuuu, your Argentinean wife doesn't let you play anymore? or maybe you went to get a haircut?
Jun 25th, 2011 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“If there were truly 8 years of unprecedented growth you would not have carteneros swarming the city every night nor would you have average people complaining they don't have enough money to buy food”
Jun 25th, 2011 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Clearly a non sequitur. If that were true, then one should also doubt economic statistics produced by the Chinese and Indian governments. India is a case in point. Its GDP has been growing 6-9% a year since the early 90s, yet India is still considered a low or lower middle income country, and the average Indian is much poorer than the average Latin American. Even China's average income is lower than that of most Latin American countries (certainly lower than the Argentina's).
@45
Jun 26th, 2011 - 04:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0bem disse ...
(40) Artillero601
Jun 26th, 2011 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Your mention of Patria makes me think about one of my old ”power places” in Buenos Aires, just meters away from the Circulo Militar……..
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Buenos_Aires-esclavos.jpg
Today, my ”Patria” is, once again, Argentina…....
@47
Jun 26th, 2011 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Libertad o Libertinaje ? which one?
@47
Jun 26th, 2011 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hay un concepto que ustedes no entienden... el amor a la Patria y la voluntad de morir por ella. .... eso no es para todo el mundo y menos para la “gilada” de este foro ....... (no todos por supuesto)
49-Inglish plis!
Jun 26th, 2011 - 03:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@50
Jun 26th, 2011 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like I said is NOT FOR EVERYBODY !!!!!!!!
They give Nobel prizes to anyone these days...
Jun 28th, 2011 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Martin, I thought the Mercopress article a bit convoluted - but as I understand it, Krugman is actually defending Argentina's rejection of orthodox economics and the establishment position on the debt. That is, he's questioning the establishment definition of 'serious' country, which actually means nothing but a country that is willing to put the market's interests above national ones.
Jun 30th, 2011 - 05:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately the information that you have about argentina is always partial, anyway this web site is good.
Jun 30th, 2011 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In spite that our country improuved a lot it's social situation, we are still a very unequal society, and it will take many years to solve all our problems.
Beyond the numbers from the indec, or those that belong to those so called private analists, no one can deny that we are in a much better situation and got many achievements.
Respecting the numbers of the indec, and the private analists, there are so many politic and mediatic operations arround this issue, if the indec is not reliable, all those private analists, are even less reliable than the indec, including they recognize that they dont have enough recources to create an index of prizes, they only can make an estimation, and their analysis dont include others provinces from the country, like the indec does, but the statal institution doesn't have any social legitimity by the society.
Respecting the fact if argentina is a serious country or not, none country is totaly serious nor a total disaster, we have positive and negative aspects like any other nation.
Anyway we must keep the economic independence that we have now, to avoid to fell again into those terrible crisis, and return to the imf, to follow finally all those fucking recomendations that took the country to the disaster.
Respecting the economists, most them in argentina have less legitimity than the indec, most them, except for just a few, are just diviners who work for powerful corporations which are interested on the fact that argentina returns to the imf, that's why since 2003 they predict all the time economic disaster and finally nothing happens luckily.
If the government didn't handle correctly the crisis of 2009, it would have collapsed our economy, this crisis was almost a joke if we compare it with others that decimated our reserves, and made fell diferent governments.
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