MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
UK Parliament praises Brazil, but regrets its ‘hardening’ policy towards Falklands
Britain’s House of Commons strongly supports a closer bilateral relationship with Brazil, which it describes as a democratic, well governed, responsible state but regrets the hardening position of Brazil towards the Falklands and the HMS Clyde incident. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThe people of the Falkland Islands also regrets a general hardening of Brazil's position towards the Falklands and are disappointed that a great country like Brazil can be brow-beaten into supporting a totally illegal claim and support Argentina in its illegal blockade of the peaceful Falklands.A sad day for Brazilians.We thought they were a free and democratic nation,not puppets to Argentina.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 09:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil is a fast growing economy, along with China and Russia, and like both of those other countries it suffers from endemic corruption and an upper elite milking off a population barely scraping a living on subsistence wages.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 02:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Treating workers as slave labour is not the stuff of success. It is only a matter of time before workers demand fair pay and equal rights, with the elites that drive their lives into the ground, so they can live in their fancy homes.
Russia - characterised by criminal mafias and government run corruption.
China - characterised by a corporate elite, protected by a defunct ideology used to perpetuate their grasp on power and subjugation of their workers.
Brazil - characterised by rich blond haired elites, lording it over the darker skinned masses, police corruption, state sponsored murder, oppression of the indigenous population, harsh prisons and low wages.
Great examples for the future! NOT!
Brazil is the regional power of South America and certainly does not have the best interests of its closest rival Argentina at heart.
“Brazil - characterised by rich blond haired elites, lording it over the darker skinned masses, police corruption, state sponsored murder, oppression of the indigenous population, harsh prisons and low wages.”
Oct 20th, 2011 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- Brazil's “elites” aren't blond and the poor aren't overwhelmingly dark either. A third of Brazil's poor identify as white.
- Police corruption, how funny to hear that charge from a Brit. :)
- State-sponsored murder where?
- Oppression of the indigenous groups: again where? 15% of our territory have been marked as reserves for our Natives, who are barely 0.5% of the population. And considering the UK's treatment of the Chagossian, hearing the charge of oppression against Natives is very rich. Be careful what you say - you live in a glass house.
- Low wages: Wages are low, but this is a result of other political and economic factors: in part low productivity and in part the military regime's wage freezing policies which ate away a large part of the minimum wage's purchasing power. Be that as it may, minimum wages have grown over 70% throughout the last decade (an effort that has been announced as an attempt to restore wages) and this has been a key factor in reducing inequality. Among the largest economies in the world, Brazil is the only one that's been reducing inequality. Meanwhile UK real minimum wages remain frozen and inequality is climbing.
I know that it may be hurting you that we're not licking your boots and supporting you over an important neighbor and trade partner - but as a Brit you're in no position to lecture us about human rights. Get off of your high horse and lick some Iraqis' boots and ask for forgiveness. This is the best you can do for human rights without sounding hypocritical.
Viscount# you are ridiculous...the argentina claim over the islands its totally legal, the UN recognize it...to you all countries that support argentina arent democratic? even when argentina and brazil choose their governors and in the islands the governor its put by the UK? jaja
Oct 20th, 2011 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anti-Fascist# do i have to remember you the UK cruel ways of make what you falsely call justice?
what about the colonization and invasion? what about the african people and the UK enslavement is that the right “example” to you? jaja
you are the only country in the world that lives on a fart cloud even EEUU is smarter than you...bye bye falkland islands good morning Islas Malvinas..
“what about the colonization and invasion?”
Oct 20th, 2011 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Coming from the colonizers of the spanish empire.
“the turning away of a Royal Navy vessel is a serious matter. The committee regrets that Brazil felt the need to refuse docking permission to HMS Clyde in January this year, and further regrets a general hardening of Brazil's position towards the Falklands. The committee is pressing for answers from the FCO as to how this situation was allowed to develop”.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 03:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Get used to it, you are not welcome in South America.
Clown Anti-Fascist in reality a true Fascist (though he/she won't admit that) is similar like that idiot Geoffward.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forget, your comment was very well typed but to bad clown Fascist won't get it because it doesn't fit his/her ideology. That sad are the majority of the brits who comment here on mercopress. As I type many times here, they are ugly people not only from the outside, but also from the inside.
This article by the way you can read how the brits are trying sucking up to Brazil who they know they have to deal with and export their way out. Good news is, the Brazilians are aware of that include the Argentines.
Agreed, Fido. Unfortunately people - and I'm including myself in here - don't face reality as it is. They interpret it according to pre-established worldviews they have adopted. Since he's annoyed in our support for a neighbor, he will cherry pick facts to validate his sentiments, without even realizing his country may have similar faults as well. Did you realize he didn't even mention India, which suffers from all those problems - endemic political corruption and rogue police - in even higher degrees than Brazil? And unlike Brazil, India doesn't even have redeeming qualities such as succesful political and social efforts to narrow income gaps within society (India is becoming more and ore unequal). Ofc, since India shares a history with the UK, he'll be more sympathetic towards that country, fairness be damned.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Whether or not one sympathizes the Argentinian bid, the fact is that Argentina is a neighbor and potentially a long-term close ally of Brazil. It is only natural that we'll side with Argentina. After all, the UK FM himself has said his country neglected relations with Latin America. Why then should the UK expect support from Latin America? So instead of getting all huffy puffy, Anti-Fascist should realize that Brazil, like any other country, will take positions based on self-interest, not on what HE thinks is best.
Of course, my Anti-Fascist friend #2,
Oct 20th, 2011 - 05:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0whilst this is all generally true – and none of my Brasilian friends here can effectively refute it – there is more to Brasil than this.
It is a young country where the colonial bosses stayed on and ‘managed affairs’ as they saw fit. Brasil’s problems stem largely from this mind-set.
The huge black ex-slave population, which you describe as an underclass, may statistically be more under-educated, poorer, unhealthier, etc, but they have at least spread their genes into those of their ex-colonial masters so, in the fullness of time a common denominator of coffee-coloured mediumness (to quote from the song) will ensue. And bear in mind that the present Minister of Sport isn’t exactly white, so massive corruption isn’t solely the province of the ‘blond-haired elites.’
And the law in Brasil is more humane than you think – today the biggest drug-warlord in Brasil was released into the community because of his ‘good behaviour whilst in prison’.
We have a free press – so much so that when politicians mistakenly transgress the corruption rules, we are allowed to report it.
And we love Argentina so much that it was only after suffering years of trade blocking of a range of some 130 categories of trade that we eventually said to Argentina “Please don’t do that, it makes us cross”.
As Forgetit says 'self-interest is the way to go'.
Thank you for taking time to comment, your perspective is appreciated.
“As I type many times here, they are ugly people not only from the outside, but also from the inside. ”
Oct 20th, 2011 - 05:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Coming from the person who speaks with utter hate and contempt every time he posts, One might look inwards first.
Forgetit #3
Oct 20th, 2011 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“- Oppression of the indigenous groups: again where?
15% of our territory have been marked as reserves for our Natives, who are barely 0.5% of the population. ”
It´s worth reflecting, Forgetit, that just a couple of hundred years ago or so, the Natives were 100% of the population.
And that the most recent genocide of the 'Natives' was 10,000-100,000 souls between 1957-68, so it´s not surprising that we have got them down to 0.5%
[ref: Diamond J., The Third Chimpanzee, 1992.]
The indigenous haven't been 100% of the population for 500 years already. And what happened such a long time ago in no way makes what the UK did 3 decades ago - and is still doing now - look any better. 500 years ago there was no notion of human rights even among Europeans. And what the Portuguese did, which was nothing unheard of among military powers at the time, in no way reflects on us. The sins of the father don't pass onto the son. Moreover, as genetic testes show, though predominantly Native individuals are a minority, a very large part of the Brazilian population has Native admixture -- evidence that the Natives weren't simply suppressed but many were instead absorbed into the larger Caucasian and Black population. And finally, I think Brazil has taken its steps to address Indigenous issues. Unlike the UK, Brazil is a full signatory to the UN charter on indigenous rights; Natives have under their control more land area than the whole of Britain; and they're now one of the fastest-growing demographic groups in Brazil. They face problems - mostly with illegally-acting, sometimes even foreign (Peruvian), loggers. But from the government and civil society there's no hostility whatsoever against that group. When the UK decides to repair the Chagossian situation, then we'll talk.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Unlike the UK, Brazil is a full signatory to the UN charter on indigenous rights;[are you saying the UK government is not]
Oct 20th, 2011 - 08:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Natives have under their control more land area than the whole of Britain;[please look at a map,, if they had less than the British, i would be astonished ]
When the UK decides to repair the Chagossian situation, then we'll talk.
[And the forests you are destroying and the Indians you are displacing are what]
If we are to believe that we live in a society of freedom and free choice today,
Then the people of all lands and islands should have the solemn right to choose who run/controls them, if any country or peoples oppose this, then what does that say about rights,,[its ok for me, and not for you]
either we all have rights, or none of us has rights,, the Falkland islanders have freely chosen to remain British, and that is the end of all arguments, no democracy can deny other people rights that it bestows on its own people,, only a dictatorships, denies the people rights,
You cannot bring petty and childish arguments into the equation,
we either live in the 21st century, or we are still living in the 18th century, what is it, you cannot have it both ways, without being a bloody hypocrite ,Argentina must allow the islanders to choose their own destiny, just as Spain was forced to give Argentina independence, so they forged there own destiny, stop the treed to freedom, and you will go right back to a dictatorship, the future then is your oyster, or your prison,
You choose ,for destiny wait for no man, it will either happen, or it wont,
just a thought .
Main Points Of The Report On Violence Against Indigenous Peoples In Brazil - 2009
Oct 20th, 2011 - 08:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Violence: state failure and lack of assistance
In 2009 were registered 133 cases of violence sparked by the failure of public power. Among the events, there is, again, the large number of death due to lack of assistance to health, 41 in total. Of this number, 22 are victims of the Xavante people, community Parabubure, located in New Xavantina, Mato Grosso.
According to information from missionaries, CIMI deaths occurred due to several flaws in the health care of indigenous people over a period of two months. In the region there is no transport to work and prevention of health staff, lack mattresses, medicines and basic materials, including cleaning.
Another alarming fact is the high rate of malnutrition. During the past year were recorded 90 cases in the community Guarani Kaiowá of Dourados, Mato Grosso do Sul Added to that number nine deaths of children due to low birth weight: 7 in Sao Paulo, one in: Tocantins and Parana.
I knew sticky would comment. :) The dumb nationalist who thinks he's above any criticism. Anyway, I know you well enough not to attempt a reply, so please continue your dumb trolling. I won't comment on here anymore (see how efficient your undereducted countrymen are at suppressing debate, Geoff).
Oct 20th, 2011 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0how efficient your undereducted countrymen are at suppressing debate
Oct 20th, 2011 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Pot to kettle over ;-)
There were attempts to criminalize movements that support landless people in their efforts to secure land and agrarian reform.
In Rio Grande do Sul state, prosecutors and military police built up a dossier of numerous allegations against members of the Landless Rural Workers Movement (Movimento dos Trabalhadores Rurais Sem Terra, MST) in what the MST described as an attempt to curtail their activities and criminalize members. The dossier, which included allegations of MST links with international terrorist groups, was used to support legal appeals for evictions, a number of which were carried out by police with excessive force.
And what do you know, you dumbass?
Oct 20th, 2011 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You think you can understand reality by Googling, and I know from experience that I can't convince you otherwise. But anyway, here's something new for you to ignore: the MST doesn't only want land redistribution of improductive property but it has also invaded productive private estates. For instance, almost a decade ago it invaded some multinational's farming camps and proceeded to destroy the property's plantations with some mini truck they found in there. The media reported an MST leader openly said in a reunion of the group that their intentions were to “at least cause damage”. This is not the police's invention. This is ON VIDEO.
But sure you won't believe me and will instead continue with your Google-supported trolling. This is because you're already biased against me. Ignore me if you want to -- but please, ask your countryman Geoff what he thinks of the MST. I have enough of the lefist in me not to be completely hostile against that group. But Geoff doesn't -- and I bet he hates those folks' guts.
At any event, the MST has not been criminalized though many of its actions are illegal and would be so in other countries as well. The UK, by contrast, puts a whole lot of restrictions on SOCIAL MEDIA use because of some petty riots some months ago.
And don't compare me with you. I'm not the one who tries to silence the opponent by flamming links instead of trying to engage in actual debate.
I know you well enough not to attempt a reply, so please continue your dumb trolling. I won't comment on here anymore
Oct 20th, 2011 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hit a nerve have I, anyway thought you was going to ignore me
The UK, by contrast, puts a whole lot of restrictions on SOCIAL MEDIA use because of some petty riots some months ago.
At first glance, the Google data, as published on its Web site, certainly don’t look good for Brazil. Google says it received over 50 percent more requests from Brazilian authorities for content to be removed than those of the next highest country, Germany. Brazil also beat out second-place United States in personal data requests, despite having only 72 million Internet users in 2008 compared to the 230 million in the States
Geoffrey you dissapoint me supporting the ill cultured Anti Fascist who is a mirror image of one.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 09:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indeed Brasil Argentine relations are improving at a spectacular rate trade has increased such that Argentina has passed out the US as the second largest purchaser of Brazilian goods with Brasil occupying first place for Argentinas exports.Trade bewtween the two will exceed 40 billion dollars in 2011.
Despite the occasional glitch relations bewtween South Americas two giant countries have never been better and with Rouseff and Kirchner in power thats likely to accentuate
So you've already changed the subject. You won't defend the MST, why? because you don't know the group; you're a know nothing who will just keep talking out of your ass.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 09:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Anyway, we have tighter speech restrictions than the US. While the US is overly free in matters of political discourse, we by contrast don't tolerate manifestations of racism, xenophobia, and religious bigotry. Homophobia is being watched over in some states as well. Still, orkut - the most popular social media in Brazil - is a hot bed for anonymous postings containing criminal content. I have myself reported that sort of stuff to Google. So I'm not surprised that there have been so many reports, and I suppose the requests are related to those kind of violations. Myself, I prefer our regulated policies over the US's laissez-faire approach. Anyway, I don't count that as restrictions on social media use, as this sort of regulation, which is widely supported among the populace, is not only allowed but actually ENFORCED by our constituion and also applies to “real life” conduct. It certainly is completely different to what has happened in the UK following the riots.
http://www.salon.com/2011/08/19/surveillance_13/
“[I]n the wake of recent riots in London and throughout Britain -- a serious upheaval to be sure, but far less disruptive than what happened in the Middle East this year, or what happens routinely in China -- the instant reaction of Prime Minister David Cameron was a scheme to force telecoms to allow his government the power to limit the use of Internet and social networking sites.”
Instead of getting all offended by what I'm saying (which I know you will and that you're trying to respond by posting another paragraph from a link you find on Google), try to improve your country's situation by demanding that the government scale down its restrictions on free speech. For fascism tends to rise in times such as these.
The media reported an MST leader openly said in a reunion of the group that their intentions were to “at least cause damage”. This is not the police's invention. This is ON VIDEO.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 09:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, the POLICE
http://www.mstbrazil.org/news/decision-eldorado-dos-caraj%C3%A1s-stj-upholds-conviction-military-police
The Superior Court of Justice (STJ) denied the appeal of the police officers convicted of killing 19 landless workers in 1996 in Eldorado dos Carajás
So now you come back to the issue. You've been googling all along, haven't ya?
Oct 20th, 2011 - 10:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Be that as it may, the incident reported on that link has nothing to do with the one I told you about. And for Christ's sakes, that the MST has been illegally targeted doesn't mean it is itself free of wrongdoings. Reality isn't so black on white, sticky. As I said, you're not going to believe me. Just wait for the imput of other posters who, in contrast to you, actually know the group. I could myself post some links (some more impartial than MSTBrazil.org) if you're so interested in the group. But can you read Portuguese? And you know, at least the police officers have been punished. In no country in the world are wrongdoings, by politicians, police officers, military leaders, inexistent. What distinguishes democracies isn't the abscence of illegal abuse, but rather the fact that wrongdoers are actually punished and put on trial when their evil deeds are exposed. Those guys aren't rewarded by the state when they kill innocent folks (you know what I'm talking about; go there post some links).
Jusy a little MST Wikileak to help the discussion.
Oct 20th, 2011 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have done this topic to death on previous visits, so I leave this discussion to you, along with the US Ambassadorial take on the issue at that date:
http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/04/09SAOPAULO200.html
I'm reminded that once the MST invaded one of FHC's farms - while he was still Brazil's president! -, vandalized the property, and used all food and drinks they found to make a little party. Nothing happened to them or their leaders, even though such a blatant invasion of property would understandably leave one feeling unsafe or bullied. Ofc this is not such a serious matter, but how much sympathy can the MST gather with this sort of juvenile, vulgar antics?
Oct 20th, 2011 - 10:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0today the biggest drug-warlord in Brasil was released into the community because of his ‘good behaviour whilst in prison’.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 04:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Today october 21 2011 the most wanted drug lord was captured in neighboring Paraguay and extradited to Brazil authorities.
here a link..it's in dutch but you can use google translation.
http://link2brazil.com/
show me your link of your story...if you can.
Thanks for the link, Fido.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 10:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Unfortunately it does not translate sufficiently in either Dutch or Africaner - check it out, you may do better than I did.
My link to my story is my partner, who picked it up off Globo national TV.
Re. the MST,
Dilma still has the draft PT manifesto legislation on the stocks to legitimize the invasions, functionally decriminalizing them.
The only requirement on the invaders and the invaders is that they should sit down and discuss the situation and resolve the 'complaints'.
Considering that these invasions create bulldozing of fruit farms, serious damage, murders and subsequent production nose-dive and land dereliction, what chance of :
“We want half your land and, if you don't give it, the bit you still have will be totally destroyed”
“OK, guys, in the best interests of the development of Brasil, I will be pleased to hand over my best 35,000 Ha. By the way, do any of you know how to farm? . . . . I thought not.”
@12Forgetit87,
Oct 21st, 2011 - 11:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0“And what the Portuguese did, in no way reflects on us”-Really?
Just like the Argentines, “oh it was the Spanish, we didn't do that”
Shameful hypocrites all.
But of course by your logic we are responsible for ALL that the British did in the past!!
l think that you are a prize plonker, Forgetit. Just like that very strange Dutch fool, Fido Dido. You would make a fine pair.
. . . . with their antlers still attached, either side and above a roaring open fire.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0;-)
@lsolde
Oct 21st, 2011 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- “Really?”
Yes.
- “Just like the Argentines, “oh it was the Spanish, we didn't do that””
I certainly didn't do anything. Moreover, as I said, most Brazilians have Native ancestry. Most of us don't descend from the oppressors only but the oppressed as well. And you know, the same is true of Argentinians.
- “by your logic we are responsible for ALL that the British did in the past!!”
By my logic, a people doesn't inherit anything from its ancestors in terms of morality and guilt, you genius of a woman. I don't believe in universal human rights though, imo, UN member countries should standy by human rights legislation since they were agreed upon by state members when the UN was founded. The UK, Portugal, Spain, Brazil, Argentina - we all now have the obligation to act according to those statutes. Now, the UN didn't exist 70 years ago; its legislation didn't apply to anything that happened before that.
Now, the Chagossians were expelled from their homeland 30, 40 years ago. That's why I'm bringing about their situation here, and also because the UK refuses to fix it. As a wikileaks cable has shown, the UK Parliament has decided to declare the Chagos islands an area of environmental protection so it wouldn't have to giv'em back to their original, rightful owners.
Btw, there's this BBC doc on the Chagos islands. The doc is about how the environmental outlook of the island has improved after the natives were expelled. Nothing on the people's plight is said. Shameful how the British media quietly supports UKGO immoral actions even though it is very good in pointing, and exaggerating, shortcomings in 3rd World countries.
- “l think that you are a prize plonker, Forgetit. Just like that very strange Dutch fool, Fido Dido. You would make a fine pair.”
He's better company than your self-righteous, whiny ass. :)
Fido,
Oct 21st, 2011 - 03:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I misinterpreted my partner's info (couldn't have been paying attention).
The big-drug-guy was released into the community some time back - for 'good behaviour' - reverting immediately to his old habits, he was yesterday recaptured in Paraguay ready for 'extradition' to Brasil.
Things can happen fast when both parties want it to - unlike the extradition from Brasil of a certain Italian murdering barstard.
Shameful how the British media quietly supports UKGO immoral actions even though it is very good in pointing, and exaggerating, shortcomings in 3rd World countries.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You dont arf talk shite for a “clever chap” ;-)
The Chagos Islands: A sordid tale
A very sad and by no means creditable episode in British history.“
That was how Sir Sydney Kentridge QC, barrister for the Chagos islanders or Ilois, described their forced removal from their ”paradise” homeland in the 1960s and 1970s
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1005064.stm
Mauritius has launched a legal action against the UK to contest its creation of a Marine Protection Area around its Chagos Islands in the Indian Ocean
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1005064.stm
Still you wouldnt want us Brits to do the same to the Falklanders would you?
@29 Forgetit,
Oct 21st, 2011 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Touch a raw nerve did l, Mr Sensitivity himself?
“as l said, most Brazilians have native ancestry”, “MOST”- Are you sure about that? “Most of us don't decend from the oppressors”-Really?
Or could that be a lie?
“As you know the same is true of the Argentines” again, Really?
Or is that another lie?
So you are all native peoples? mmmmn, then why do you speak Portuguese & Spanish?
l'm not self-righteous & l certainly don't whine(not like the “Spanish & ltalian” Argentines).
l still think the pair of you are prize plonkers & l would rather cross swords with Think & Marcos anyday than you two.
Cher Isolde.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forgetit86/7 is precisely what you British Squatters fear the most.
Independent thinking, well-informed, rational people siding with Argentina.
Every time one of them appears in this pages, you people, by reflex, trash, insult and abuse them.
Doesn’t matter if they are Anglo/British/English-Argies, American, Icelandic, Brazilian or 100% Argentineans.
@lsolde
Oct 21st, 2011 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- “Touch a raw nerve did l, Mr Sensitivity himself?”
Hehe. I actually had fun replying to you. It was easy answering back those petty objections. It was almost like you were lifting the ball for me.
- “Or could that be a lie?”
I'm a big sucker for human population genetics studies and I've seen enough of them on LatAm. Many papers are available online, if you're interested in learning something. If you want me to, I can name one study which shows that ~55% of Argentine mtdna lineages are of Native origin. That is, that most Argentines have some degree of Native origin, even if that doesn't show in phenotype. Ofc there are exceptions, eg, those who have only immigrant origin. That isn't a majority, though. In LatAm most people have a degree of colonial ancestry, which is mixed. Anyway, why's it so hard to believe that? 'Cause it doesn't fit your anti-Argentine narrative?
- “So you are all native peoples?”
No Latin American nationality can be identified with only one ancestral source. Most people derive their ancestry from more than one continent.
- “then why do you speak Portuguese & Spanish?”
In part b/c our peoples also derive ancestry from Iberia; in part because culture can be transmitted independently of genes. I thought that was obvious? Or do you think Haitians are French because they speak a French creole language?
- “l still think the pair of you are prize plonkers & l would rather cross swords with Think & Marcos anyday than you two.”
I too like Think and Marcos, and I know they're more agreeable and funnier than me. But then again, what's the fun of being Mr. Nice Guy on the internet? I'm sure 90% of internet users are with me. If you don't like it, you can ignore me, like I was doing you before you addressed me in the first place.
“Every time one of them appears in this pages, you people, by reflex, trash, insult and abuse them.”
Oct 21st, 2011 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is actually true as seen when that Icelander poster showed up. Each time he posted some 4 or 5 British users came up to answer back his objections - often with remarkable fury. Even Redhoyt, who's usually so light hearted, lost his temper over a guy who was doing nothing but to vigourously, eloquently expose his arguments.
Just like that very strange Dutch fool, Fido Dido. You would make a fine pair.
Oct 21st, 2011 - 11:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, I'm proud to be Dutch and you're a typical ugly british welfare queen with bad teeth and with no knowledge at all of what you like to comment about, include your falkland's comments.
“Forgetit86/7 is precisely what you British . . . fear the most. Independent thinking, well-informed, rational people siding with Argentina.” (Think #33)
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0I really don't think fear comes into it.
People react well to a positive, rational argument, well made.
Forgetit has made such arguments many times and we have all taken a measure of his argument. On some areas he seems very sound; on other areas he and I disagree fundimentally - and here I try to detect even the tiniest measure of change as we all grow older. . . . no luck so far.
My hope is that, before I die, I will live long enough to hear him denounce Brasil's corrupt elites, individually and with vehemence.
I don't believe that he is afraid ; my belief is that somehow people to whom who he is related to, or people who he knows, are tied into the 'Brasilian Condition' - the web of criminality.
The sadness is that, whatever his circumstance, he refuses to publically acknowledge the bigger picture and steadfastly refuses to denounce this foetid state.
(37) GeoffWard
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 07:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0Forgetit86/87 and other sensible posters in here have made abundantly clear their pragmatic position against corruption.
Maybe we don’t ”Denounce our corrupt elites, individually and with vehemence” as you so nicely put it………………
But at least we don’t hide back a thick curtain of denial like certain others:
”9 GeoffWard2 Oct 15th, 2011
Well, there we have it! As predicted.
Not a hint of corruption, but impropriety is sufficient in the UK for the removal of a politician.”
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/10/14/phillip-hammond-new-uk-defence-secretary-best-man-business-cards-sinks-fox
If I had to pinpoint the biggest difference between South-American and Anglo-Saxon institutionalized political corruption; I would say that:
South-American corrupt politicians grab what they can while in office.
Anglo-Saxon corrupt politicians get their paybacks after leaving political office.
Usually in form of juicy, life long “consultancies fees” and “board-memberships fees” for diverse Companies, Financial Institutions, Funds, Think-Tanks etc. etc. etc.
Yes, I'm proud to be Dutch and you're a typical ugly british welfare queen with bad teeth
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0I rather be ugly and toothless than be a spineless twat, dildo,
Still proud are you
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/1999/nov/17/features11
The Dutch bear a large responsiblity but one cannot escape the impresssion that they are let off lightly in the report. After all, it was they who forced Muslim families from the UN compound, then handed over their blue peacekeeping helmets to the Serbs, who later used them to trick the Muslims who had fled to the hills into giving themselves up. The thing which mattered most to Dutch commanders, much more than their mandate to preserve the peace, was the safety of these soldiers, and for that ignoble prioritising they have justifiably faced much criticism in the international community.
@38 Think
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 10:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you, Think.
The fact is that Geoff is a self-styled truth-teller. His “truths” have only selective targets: South American targets. His attitudes regarding Britain are very partial by contrast. For example, just before that scandal involving that Murdoch paper, he was really arguing how high-level corruption is rare in his home country. And when talking about the London riots, he managed to blame the whole situation on the British left-wing media (really!). If that happened in Brazil or elsewhere in South America, no doubt he would instead make that usual snarky comment on how dysfunction our nations are.
Geoff's rants are for a large part informed by personal biases. That's why his silly nationalism prompts him to say laughable stuff such as that which you point to on your post. On South American affairs by contrast he sounds more like an angry shrill.
#8
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“It is only natural that we'll side with Argentina.”
Whether Argentina is right or wrong?
What about when it isn't in your interest?
I'm curious.
If you told me when it wouldn't be in our interest, it'd be easier to answer. Supporting a neighbor and a trade partner over a distant nation is obviously clever thing to do, even if the FI sovereignty issue doesn't affect us in any way.
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 05:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I really dont know where you got the information that most countries side with argentina,so far I know in Europe only spain and italy (partly) side with argentina.
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even In the Netherlands with Maxima,they are not supporters of argentina,during the falkland War they sided with GB and the kelpers.
“Forgetit86/87 and other sensible posters in here have made abundantly clear their pragmatic position against corruption.” (Think #38)
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 06:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, Think, that is exactly what Forgetit has failed to do (I do not speak for others as I know not to whom you are refering).
Forgetit's position on Brasil's generic corruption and specific corruptions is never openly expressed (ambivalent?) when invited to do so, so one must suspect his position and question his motives.
And yes, I have fundimental beliefs, and perhaps this is the most fundimental:
It is WRONG to use the people to achieve power, promising everything under the sun, and then take the very bread from their mouths to accumulate vast personal fortunes and, through nepotism, into perpetuity.
But Forgetit is right about one thing - I am a truth-teller.
#42
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 07:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0With respect you dodged the question.
I asked you whether you should support Argentina, whether right or wrong?
You assert you should support your neighbour because of proximity. So I ask whether that is unconditional and you feel you should support Argentina if you know them to be wrong.
Well over the last few years of watching events in South America, I have noted Argentina deploying protectionist measures preventing Brazilian imports whilst expecting Brazil to continue taking Argentine exports for example.
Example:
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/05/17/argentina-brazil-agree-to-attempt-dialogue-to-overcome-latest-trade-dispute
And btw the UK is now Brazil's 7th most important export destination by value. Have a look at the balance of trade between Brazil and the UK and how its been developing. Then compare that with Argentina and Brazil.
I just did, I'm kind of interested to here your opinion.
“asked you whether you should support Argentina, whether right or wrong?”
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No country takes positions based on morality. Why should we? And as I said, I believe it's in out self-interest to bond with a neighbor over a distant country with whom we have few economic and political ties.
“I have noted Argentina deploying protectionist measures preventing Brazilian imports whilst expecting Brazil to continue taking Argentine exports for example.”
I'm aware of that. But:
- Brazil still has a trade surplus on Argentina;
- Brazil has access to capital markets, which means that, at least for now, we can stand current account deficits without running into a currency crisis;
- while Argentina has no such access, and thus desperately needs to prevent current account deficits.
Argentina's protectionism hurts our interests -- but it would hurt us even more to downgrade ties.
“And btw the UK is now Brazil's 7th most important export destination by value. Have a look at the balance of trade between Brazil and the UK and how its been developing. Then compare that with Argentina and Brazil.”
OK, but I'd still bet that trade with Argentina dwarfs that with the UK. Argentina is our 3rd trade partner, being surpassed only by the US and China. And in some senses it actually matters more than those countries, as Argentina is a major destination for our manufactures, while a weak dollar and declining demand in the US has hurt trade with that country, and the Chinese see that they won't import anything from us other than foodstuff and metals.
Geography also matters a lot in here. We're bound to Argentina for eternity. The UK, by contrast, takes only a seasonal interest in Latin America, as Mr. William Hague has admitted. The UK is thus not a potentially long-term partner - it is not a country over whom we should risk our ties with Argentina. Just ask yourself, JustinKuntz, whether you jeopardize relations with Germany or France over a Latin American nation.
Forgetit86
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do you live in Brazil? What's your interest in the Falklands? Are you another Argentine expat, raving about a bunch of islands lived on by a population that wants nothing to do with them? I hate fascists by the way. I would encourage all Argentine fascists to discuss their claims with me on the Falklands, I would love to show them the end of my boot! The coward little fascists scuM!
I was BTW making a generalisation about Brail, not a absolute statement. As a generalisation it is true, your blacks are as a proportion of the population the poorest people. I've worked in Brazil, I've been to neighborhoods where you can't find them, some of your people don't like them, last time I check you had few in government!
Cuba is the most racist country in the Caribbean, as a statement it runs against the grain of perceived logic. Socialism supposedly being the antipathy of racism. But if you had ever lived there, it would be one of the first things would find out!
As for police corruption have you ever lived in the UK? Police corruption exists everywhere, we have more than enough but compared to your country, it looks so petty to be laughable.
“Do you live in Brazil?” “
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 11:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I live and was born, and I'm pretty sure I can humiliate you if you try to engage me in a competition on who knows this country better.
”What's your interest in the Falklands?“
None whatsoever. In fact I wouldn't even be commenting in here if you hadn't made that trollish comment.
”your blacks are as a proportion of the population the poorest people.”
No shit, Sherlock! But Blacks are also the poorest demographic group in Canada, the US, and the UK. Brazil is hardly alone in here. Do you also think none of those countries' can truly be paraded as examples to the world at large since their (truly) blond elites are “exploiting” the poor?
“I've worked in Brazil”
I doubt you have. You're probably one of those British entitled ass, self-styled experts who think they can comment on a country's situation b/c you've read some stereotyped story on BBC.
“I've been to neighborhoods where you can't find them”
Where exactly Blacks can't be found??
If you've actually been here, which I doubt, you'd have noticed one thing: Brazil is no South Africa, where rich and poor neighborhoods occupy different spaces. The so-called favelas cut all over through the richer neighborhoods, they aren't isolated as in US ghettoes. Often you have to pass through, or in front of, such communities to get to work, to go to college or to get back to home. People, poor and rich, walk the same street and breathe the same air. I've had acquaintances who live in favelas and as a kid I had playmates from those areas. Sometimes me and my brother would go down to the very poor home one of those friends, and my parents never frowned upon that as they knew it was a safe place. In sum, as everyone who knows this country can conclude, poverty is pretty much a public, not hidden, affair in Brazil, thank you very much.
“last time I check you had few in government!”
We have a lot of them in government, where have you been?
”Cuba is the most racist country in the Caribbean (...) Socialism supposedly being the antipathy of racism.“
Oct 22nd, 2011 - 11:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As I said, you're British moron speaking out of your ass. I can show you articles saying how intermarriage exploded after the Castro-led 59 revolution as a result of racial segregation laws being revoked.
”As for police corruption have you ever lived in the UK?“
I don't need to. I read the papers and I've seen how deeply embedded the British police was in Murdoch's scehemes to spy on British citizens. We've never had anything of such proportions around here. Corruption in Brazil is pretty much a high-level thing - it occurs in the cabinet, in Congress, in state councils. When it comes to petty corruption, however, Brazil occupies an enviable position compared to other 3rd World countries.
”Police corruption exists everywhere, we have more than enough but compared to your country, it looks so petty to be laughable.”
And how'd you know? You've never been here. See by yourself how full of abstractions and stereotypes, and how lacking in detail, your comments on Brazil and Cuba are. Anyone who reads foreign papers can write crap like that even if they've never been here.
Forgetit86 quote:
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 01:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0“No country takes positions based on morality.”
So where does this leave us? Clearly, this isn't true because there would little left of humanity if it was. There are competing interests in any country and morality is one of those interests. It's never been the case that morality plays no part and to suggest it should be so is fascistic!
Clearly in WW2 Britain chose the path of most resistance. Given the option to ally ourselves with Hitlers Germany, or choose neutrality at the time of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union, we chose the path of most resistance. France opted for a path of least resistance in 1940, partly occupied it opted for benign neutrality with Germany.
So why did we choose war with Germany. Our Empire's future would have been better served in alliance with Germany. In the 1930's when America was on the verge of fascism herself they concocted a plan called Plan Red, it included the gassing of entire cities in Canada, in a lightning war against the British Empire - to take it over. They made financial demands on us following WW1, they made vast sums out of us during and after WW2. They took over our Empire.
The fact in WW2 Britain made a moral choice against fascism.
Morality comes into play on many levels. You could, for instance argue that Britain had an economic, trade and military interest in retaining parts of Empire. But the policy from the 1950's was one of independence and fast withdrawal. This was partly a moral reason, you can argue there were other pressures, but that does not detract from the over riding interest being least resistance to international pressure and the moral high ground, which earned this country respect world wide.
Argentina claim for the Falkland Islands is just plain evil and again, while the Falkland's cost the UK far more than they earn, the UK has a moral duty to protect the Falkland Islands. No amount of wiggling will enable the government to escape this responsibility.
“So where does this leave us? Clearly, this isn't true because there would little left of humanity if it was”
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 01:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0You're right. Obviously the history of the nations has not been marked by all too frequent conflicts between opposing nations pursuing power and wealth at the expense of other peoples. OBVIOUSLY history has instead been run by altruism, compassion, hugging trees, and making love in open spaces.
“It's never been the case that morality plays no part and to suggest it should be so is fascistic”
Yeah, sure. Go write a book about how Thucydides was wrong and how the nature of the international system can be deciphered by your liberal hippie clichés.
“So why did we choose war with Germany”
You did so by self-interest. Initially the UK, and Chirchill himself, saw in the Nazi-Fascist regimes a reliable bulward against Communist expansion. The UK's attitude only changed when it was clear that the Nazis were not only an authoritarian and racist party (in which case it would only pose a danger to domestic constituencies), but an aggressive, militaristic power that was bent to expand its territory at the expense of other European nations (in which case Germany would also be a danger to neighboring peoples who reasonably felt the need to fend off the threat by waging pre-emptive wars). It wasn't because of altruism, as shown by the delay in the British-French reaction to Germany's actions in Eastern Europe. You have to be stupid to believe otherwise.
I didn't read, and won't answer, the rest of your post as the first half have showed me enough of your knowledge and reasoning skills.
*has sh0wn
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 02:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Well, very interesting gentlemen. l still say Forgetit that you are far too touchy. Like showing your superiority but can't take criticism.
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 05:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0Very defensive when Geoff posts anything about Brazil. Well l don't care about that. We are a bit off-track here as my main interests are the Falklands & refuting Argentina's ridiculous claims to those lslands.
So Forgetit, l will ignore you as you say you have ignored me(even though you have made long posts argueing against me!).
@36Fido Dido,
You may be proud to be Dutch but l'd guess the Dutch wouldn't be proud of you.
You make statements without any evidence at all:-
An “ugly British welfare queen with bad teeth with no knowledge ofwhat you like to comment on including Falkland comments”
Rather a sweeping statement mynheer.
1) l don't think l'm ugly, have been told l'm quite attractive. Others have made that statement, not me.
2) l have never been on welfare.
3) l am not a queen, l have no Royal blood at all that l know of. OR if you mean it in the sexual way, then, no. l am heterosexual.
4) l have very good white teeth, all of my own.
5) Maybe l do not have complete knowledge of all that l comment on.
But at least as much or more than your ravings.
6) Never said that l know everything about the Falklands, but once again probably more than you & l KNOW that the lslands do NOT belong to Argentina.
So dear cloggs, as much as Forgetit doesn't impress me, l have nothing but contempt for you.
#46
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 08:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0So it would be fair to say, that your support for Argentina in its claim over the Falkland Islands, is not because of any intrinsic value of its claim but rather your own narrow self-interest.
Well at least you are honest, for that I commend you.
BTW have you looked at balance of trade yet? And the impact of those protectionist measures I referred to.
I doubt you have. You're probably one of those British entitled ass, self-styled experts who think they can comment on a country's situation b/c you've read some stereotyped story on BBC
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 09:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0As for police corruption have you ever lived in the UK?“
I don't need to. I read the papers and I've seen how deeply embedded the British
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9MjWBInGZ0
@JustinKuntz
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0“have you looked at balance of trade yet?”
No, I haven't, but we have been having a surplus on Argentina for years. It is not something any recent policy would have changed. And Brazil itself has implemented its own policies in that direction.
@lsolde
“Like showing your superiority”
That's quite clear.
“Very defensive when Geoff posts anything about Brazil.”
Because Geoff isn't impartial an impartial commenter. See his reactions to news pieces exposing problems, any sort of problems, in the UK. They're quite different from those on Brazil's problems. As I said, many of his views are informed by personal biases (his British nationalism, his contempt for Latin America, his antipathy towards the left...), and that is what provokes a reaction from me.
”So Forgetit, l will ignore you as you say you have ignored me(even though you have made long posts argueing against me!).”
I had been ignoring you before you started addressing me. Glad we're getting back to that.
#56
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 11:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0It has changed. Its still a surplus.
But then I ask if you've looked at the balance of trade:
UK & Braxil
Brazil & Argentina
And how its been changing.
@56Forgetit,
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0You omitted the important part of the sentence“-but can't take criticism”. So true.
So does Geoff lie about Brazil?
Glad to hear it that you agree l am right, now we can have lots of fun ignoring each other(you won't be missed, l might add!).
Forgetit87 -
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0I missed your previous reply about Cuba and Brazil, etc.
Clearly your level of English is poor as you failed to read my message properly. I have lived in both Cuba and Brazil. While I wouldn't argue that the status of blacks improved after the Cuban Revolution, it also improved throughout the Caribbean.
However, if you had ever lived in Cuba, the first thing you would notice would be the status of blacks, where they live, how the police deal with them, who makes up the largest prison population and the largest proportion of poor people, how some people consider them.
You demonstrate the typical ex patriot Argentine's knowledge of the country you live in.
Back to international relations, something I clearly know nothing about, being a political scientist! I have to wonder where you gained your knowledge of international affairs, maybe the Neo-Fascist universidad of Peronism or somewhere similar.
First of all, you've clearly got a narrow minding reading collection, books by Guido Prepararata, belong in the conspiracy theory side of history. They fall down on several levels.
Britain had the opportunity to side with Hitler, you can argue he could never be trusted, but even that alone is a moral imperative. In early June 1941, we had the opportunity to withdraw from the war and like France form some kind of benevolent neutrality pact with Germany. Germany was on the verge of invading Russia and wanted Britain out of the war. We chose not to. The moral imperative was the defeat of Hitler.
You call me a Liberal, I'm more realist than liberal but no one theory of political science explains international actions, or affairs. Liberalism, has as much weight as Realism and the preponderance of Realism is only the result of more people investing in as opposed to anything else.
Hitler was also a realist, as was Mussolini and Tojo.
I've tried explaining this in simple language so you can understand. Morality is a concern of nation states, TBC
I
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- You said Cuba's alleged racism is ironical since socialism is supposed to be anti-racist. Seems you were blaming discrimination against Blacks on Castro's regime. So I was right in pointing out that racial integration has improved following the 59 revolution. As said, I doubt you've actually been here or in Cuba. You resort too much to the international press's stereotypes about those nations and your posts lack detail. Anyone can write vague crap about other nations just by picking what the press says about'em.
- I'm not Argentine. See my post #48 which you're either deliberately ignoring or you just won't reply to. As for where I've learned about international relations, I've read Wallerstein and also Thucydides, who lived 2400 years before the word fascist even existed. Do you know him, the man who's the father of international relations theory? Are you actually a political scientist or is that another lie, like saying you've lived in Brazil and Cuba?
- Who's Guido Prepararata?
- Hitler too signed a treaty with the USSR, whom he nonetheless invaded. By experience one'd already have reasons to not expect Hitler to abide by any accord. And even if we put that aside, it'd be foolish to think Germany would comply with any accords if it expanded the way Hitler planned and accumulated more military power. As the US's repeatedly proven in the post-war period, powerful nations don't tend to respect tracts. It's appallingly moronic to think that a signed paper would put into check the militaristic impulses of great powers. Peace can only be enforced by an equilibrium in force, not by papers.
- You're not a realist. No realist believes morality is a factor to be taken into account in international relations.
II
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 12:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0- See the UK humanitarian record in its past colonies. Even peaceful independence protests were answered to with sheer force. There just is no space for one to plausibly believe moral impulses interfere with the UK's, or any other nation's, relations with foreign forces. You sound too gullible and superficial to actually be a political scientist. But then again, most brains coming out of university are mediocre.
- You've not explained anything, quit overestimating yourself. To explain is to expose the principles behind a certain dynamics. You didn't do that, all you did was keeping insisting the international system works the way you believe it does. I appreaciate your effort at exposing your thoughts in a simple language. Now, do away with the simple-minded reasoning.
Forgetit86 /87
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have lived and worked for the British Council in both Brazil and Cuba, what you choose to believe, I couldn't give a ****. You've obviously never been to Cuba.
The Brazilian prison system is horrendous, or certainly was.
Again on the issue of race in Brazil, it's not just my opinion, personal experience, it's well documented in the statistics published by your own government, it's documented in countless books and journals. Like the average English nationalist you will probably argue blacks are treated more fairly than whites in your society, or something equally sublime but your statement doesn't live up to the reality. None of the Brazilians I know share your view of Brazilian racial harmony.
I could post countless examples -
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v46/ai_9329550/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v46/ai_9329550/
Again, I could care two ****s whether you believe I am a political scientist. You are a self learned political quack. In other words you chose a couple of books and now believe you know the answers to everything.
Moral imperative is not the overriding force in international affairs but it is and should be an important factor in the affairs of nations.
In the case of Argentina, a fascist military chose to throw the politically left sons and daughters of the nation out of the backs of aircraft into the Atlantic Ocean, after torchering and raping them. Yet the population still rallied to the cause when the same government invaded the Falkland Islands. The end result was the collapse of the junta and the breakdown of the military. Moral imperative was clearly no high on the agenda f the Argentine government or their foreign and domestic planning. But clearly Argentina would be a better country today if
If you're talking about statistics on Black underachievement in education and income - that, as I said, doesn't distinguish Brazil from any other multiracial nation. Blacks underachieve in the UK and in North America as well. And that this is so, is no proof of discrimination. The stereotype, in areas with many Japanese-Brazilians, is that they're the most academically successful ethnicity. Is that evicence that Whites and Blacks are shortchanged and the Japs enjoy privileged treatment by society? Down in the 40s, 50s, Japanese immigrants were seen with contempt, including by the government, while discrimination against Blacks was forbidden by law. If a history of discrimination is at the root of a class's underachievement, then the Japs would be worse off than they actually are in here. Moreover, the Black situation is already being remedied. Income in Afr households grows faster than for total population, and so does their participation among the university student population. In Brazil racial awareness is a at a bare minimum, though things are changing after certain groups and academics began importing the sort of activism and viewpoints born in the US. An illustration: when a foreign journalist asked Milene Domingues, Ronaldo's former wife, about her marriage with a darker man, she didn't even know what to say - she hadn't even realized she was married to a man of another race. The word 'intermarriage' doesn't even exist in Portuguese, as, unlike Americans, we don't waste time putting people in racial categories. Everyone, even those who look purely White or Black, believes they have mixed ancestry. This perception weakens racial identification, and does the same to racial hostilities (which are ultimately rooted in identity). I don't care if PC, North America-emulating, media-pampered, loser activists with an axe to grind agree with that. This is fankly what I see.
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Int J Legal Med. 2010 Jul;124(4):263-8. Epub 2009 Aug 13. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19680675
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Amerindian mitochondrial DNA haplogroups predominate in the population of Argentina”.
”The study presents South American mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) data from selected north (N = 98), central (N = 193) and south (N = 47) Argentinean populations.
The Amerindian haplogroups were most frequent in the north and south representing more than 60% of the sequences. Particular clades of the Amerindian subhaplogroups turned out to be nearly region-specific.
A different situation was observed in central Argentina where European contribution was more relevant and the Amerindian haplogroups represented less than 50%.
A minor contribution of African lineages was observed throughout the country. ” (Edited for clarity, GW)
Lost you original post, Forgetit (local elec. blackout, SP), but retreived the article I was reading.
Interesting in the sense that Amerind genes (mitochondrial maternal DNA) predominate N & S - showing limited European cross-breeding; but in Central = B.A., the predominance of European DNAs swamps the cross-bred indigenous DNA.
Good work for forensics, good for ancient anthropology, but probably little utility for the contemporary social sciences.
Thank you, Geoff. Though lsolde believes I was lying, I'm not the one who'll talk out of my ass in any sort of debate. I wouldn't want to be the fool who's refuted or in caught in a lie.
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forgetit87
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 03:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What I see is you have a fascistic explanation everything, with a dose of “coat of many colours” propaganda. You can tell people your wearing this magnificent coat, for ever and a day but what I see is a man covered in a pile of shit!
A lot of dog shit thrown out to explain away everything.
As you accept Argentina is has not moral leg to stand on. This is the fascistic version of international affairs and it ends in one place. A dog pile of shit!
Argentina could take the moral road and build on friendly relations and the links build through almost 200 years of migration and history between the people of the Falklands, the people of the British Isles and the people of Pategonia and Argentina. Instead they take the road of lies, propaganda, hatred and economic warfare.
The people follow, blindly waving their patriotic flags, knowing full well where they have been before.
Although the average Argentine is convinced the islands are populated by Argentines, slowly being ethnically cleansed by the British! The standard of education in Argentina is extremely poor. Geography and History for example consists of lessons in how the Falklands belongs to Argentina.
In Argentina, a fascist military chose to throw the politically left sons and daughters of the nation out of the backs of aircraft into the Atlantic Ocean, after torchering and raping them. Yet the population still rallied to the cause when the same government invaded the Falkland Islands. The end result was the collapse of the junta and the breakdown of the military. Moral imperative was clearly not high on the agenda of the Argentine government or their foreign and domestic planning. But clearly Argentina would be a better country today if it was.
People like yourself fail to make the connection between morality and foreign affairs, it leads to disasters such as Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Toto's Japan, and George W's Terror War (Britain was guided by America rather than common sense).
“You can tell people your wearing this magnificent coat, for ever and a day but what I see is a man covered in a pile of shit!”
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Haha, funny. And they say I'm Mr. Sensitivity. :)
Keep talking about Argentina and the FI all you want. I have nothing to do with that.
someday argentina will build a statue for margaret Tatcher on plaza de mayo ,because thanks to her argentina is now a democracy.
Oct 23rd, 2011 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However, looking at the elections of today i am afraid argentina will turn in a totalitarian semi facist country were no opposition is tolerated.
lets hope i am wrong
@64GeoffWard,
Oct 24th, 2011 - 06:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Geoff, is Forgetit correct about the amount of native American blood in Brazil & Argentina?
Will do my own checking but would like to hear your opinion also.
Isolde,
Oct 24th, 2011 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Re: “Thank you, Geoff. Though lsolde believes I was lying, I'm not the one who'll talk out of my ass in any sort of debate. I wouldn't want to be the fool who's refuted or in caught in a lie”
We all occasionally talk out of the orfice when we get something wrong - and we all do, sometimes, get something wrong.
*I have only looked at the one paper* that I feel sure Forgetit refers to:
The maternal DNA can show this sort of distribution across the provinces - and you would expect it to - but this says nothing about demographics.
The population density of the Central region is relatively huge, and the density in 'the north' and 'the south' (not located by province in the article) is relatively small. Thus, the national predominance of ''European genes' predominates greatly in a head-count, but there is evidence of a massive 'touch of the tar-brush' - perjorative; as Europeans said in Victorian times.
With five hundred years of human nature, *male colonial* sexual dominance, and weak contraceptive practices any other outcome would be unlikely.
Remember we are talking about *maternal* mitochondrial DNA, a paternal analysis would turn up a different distribution;
a largely unregistered indigenous baby-boom fathered over 500 years by unmarried or European-married' colonial men would produce this outcome;
and mixing of colonial-indigenous genes would/might produce differential survival-to-pubery rates c.f. pure-bred indigenous individuals.
That's why I said that the research had little *social science* utility.
There is a really rather beautiful social commentry on 'the passing of an era' in Argentina, produced by the lifetime portfolio of work of the artist Florencio Molina Campos (productive 1930s -).
His record of the passing of the proud-though-innocent-though shrewd, 'ethical' gaucho, in a fine, humerous artistic style, echoes of a time of Argentinian certainty and unchangedness - in marked contrast to angst-poetry of Hernández' Martin Fierro.
Join to me at Facebook: Paren los vuelos de LAN a Malvinas
Oct 24th, 2011 - 11:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0My god, Geoff, is it so hard to answer yes or no to the woman?
Oct 24th, 2011 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From the studies I've seen, maternal lineages of Native origin account for 45-55% of total such lineages in Argentina. At any event they outnumber European lineages. This is because 1) in colonial times the European presence was almost entirely male; 2) European immigration was also male-biased: this, in contrast to what happened in the US, Australia, etc., where whole families settled in their adopted country. The same colonization and immigration patterns apply to other Latin American countries as well. That's why it's found that most Latin Americans, even those of white appearance, often have a degree of Native and, depending on the country, African admixture. In autosomal tests, Argentinians are 15-20% Native, while Brazilians are ~10% (Native admixture in Brazil is higher in the Northern [Amazonian] region, where it reaches 20%; in the rest of the regions it is at ~10%). I find this noteworthy in that this indicates the Native wipeout wasn't so extensive; many, perhaps most, of them were instead absorbed by the newer populations from Europe and Africa.
These are the studies where I've picked my information from:
“Inferring Continental Ancestry of Argentineans from Autosomal, Y-Chromosomal and Mitochondrial DNA.” This blog entry reports on that study's findings: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/how-argentina-became-white/
“Argentine Population Genetic Structure: Large Variance in
Amerindian Contribution”
(69) Isolde….
Oct 24th, 2011 - 03:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In short; the answer Mr. GeoffWard so hard tries to avoid is………………….. :
YES, Forgetit86/87 is correct about the amount of native American blood in Brazil & Argentina.
Speaking about something else…………………..
Did anybody read this short story posted by Fantazum in another thread?
http://www.wix.com/cusak1951/fantazum
Damn well written, realistic description of the”hard times” at ”Pradera del Ganso” anno 1982…….
Who’s the writer???
” -In there they kept us, the bastards“, Allie spits defiantly. We are standing outside a tin roofed timber
building that has a bell tower on it which might allow it to be used as a church in case somebody wanted
to pray for redemption, but was considered so unlikely it was turned into a bar and social club for the
majority who were pretty much certain they were in Hell anyway.
-How long were you in there Allie? I ask.
-Over two months, he replies.
-Terrible...terrible, I sympathise.
-Oh, it wasn't so bad, he sniffs.
-How do you mean?
-Food was good - all Argy stuff and they gave us plenty of Beer and fags.
-Oh, right, I answer then ask. ”But they wouldn't let you out would they and you couldn't get washed or
use proper toilets and things“?
-Who told you that?
-It was in the newspapers.
-Load of bollocks, he sneers. ”They kept us in there at night because of the bloody English sending
planes over to bomb the airfield but in the daytime we went back to our houses”.
-I thought your homes had been taken over by the Argentinians?
Some of them had. I had a couple of officers in my house but I liked them. Real polite they were and they
gave me all sorts of stuff……………….,”
Chuckle chuckle®
Isolde,
Oct 24th, 2011 - 09:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forgetit (better informed) and Think (non-informed) refuse comment on the socio-demographic dimension I offered, but Forgetit is right about the predominant male colonial presence and their 'freely offered' genes; I have posted on this 'sexual dimorphism' in the past.
In Brasil, the indigenous-coloniser cross-breeding was initially a conscious policy to develop a colonial workforce of critical mass; a policy that largely failed and literally died - hence the introduction of the African and his/her genes to the SA gene-pool.
Some immigrant families tried to keep themselves white and 'pure', and it is only when an occasional more-deeply coloured baby arrives 'out of the blue' that the latent (recessive) histories of the families are exposed and family histories can be correctly written.
In earlier times such babies were 'sent away to the country', sent to distant catholic residential 'schools', etc.
The social history of Australia is better documented in this respect, but you have to - even today - dig deeply and persistently to expose these earlier (eg Victorian) social exclusions.
South America is more at ease with its genetic admixtures, though it seems to accept amerindian a little better than african.
In truth, Isolde, I don't see where your question is coming from - do you 'want' a big degree of indian genes, or are you 'hoping for' a small amount of the native in the mainland southern cone white population?
C'mon Isolde
Oct 24th, 2011 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dont be such a tease.
Tell the man what you “want” :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDmX9Tkss
Ahh, Nico 1967. . . . Lou, Andy, VU
Oct 25th, 2011 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0So much that I don't remember.
Thanks for the information, Geoff. Can't remember now how we led up to this topic but interesting for all that!
Oct 25th, 2011 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0We are all mixed, no-one can say who their ancestors were, for example, 3000 years ago.
l read somewhere that the white population of Europe are decended from 7 cave women! Can't get any closer related to each other than that!
Ah, my Think. l “want” a lot of things, doesn't mean l'm going to get them, though. Yes, l like Nico.
Think, you posted that extract on another mercopress article. Answered you there.♥♥♥
Fido, Forgetit, Marcos, Think, etc, etc:
Oct 26th, 2011 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Matemáticos revelam rede capitalista que domina o mundo''
Da New Scientist - 22/10/2011
http://www.inovacaotecnologica.com.br/noticias/noticia.php?artigo=rede-capitalista-domina-mundo&id=010150111022&ebol=sim
and if you want the originating technical report - that only my partner's son allegedly understands ;-)
'The network of global corporate control',
S. Vitali, J.B. Glattfelder, and S. Battiston (recently updated)
http://www.inovacaotecnologica.com.br/noticias/noticia.php?artigo=rede-capitalista-domina-mundo&id=010150111022&ebol=sim
The top 50 of the world controlling conglomerates:
1. Barclays plc
Capital Group Companies Inc
FMR Corporation
AXA
State Street Corporation
JP Morgan Chase & Co
Legal & General Group plc
Vanguard Group Inc
UBS AG
Merrill Lynch & Co Inc
Wellington Management Co LLP
Deutsche Bank AG
Franklin Resources Inc
Credit Suisse Group
Walton Enterprises LLC
Bank of New York Mellon Corp
Natixis
Goldman Sachs Group Inc
T Rowe Price Group Inc
Legg Mason Inc
Morgan Stanley
Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc
Northern Trust Corporation
Société Générale
Bank of America Corporation
Lloyds TSB Group plc
Invesco plc
Allianz SE 29. TIAA
Old Mutual Public Limited Company
Aviva plc
Schroders plc
Dodge & Cox
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc*
Sun Life Financial Inc
Standard Life plc
CNCE
Nomura Holdings Inc
The Depository Trust Company
Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance
ING Groep NV
Brandes Investment Partners LP
Unicredito Italiano SPA
Deposit Insurance Corporation of Japan
Vereniging Aegon
BNP Paribas
Affiliated Managers Group Inc
Resona Holdings Inc
Capital Group International Inc
50. China Petrochemical Group Company
WTF?
Oct 28th, 2011 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0The number of high-grade tie-ins between these multinationals/globalised companies make them largely unassailable.
Oct 28th, 2011 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0National governments come way down the list, though the governments of the big developed nations feature in spots between 50-137.
Thus - the security guard in Doctor Strangelove didn't say “If you shoot . . you'll have to answer to the US government”; he said “If you shoot . . you'll have to answer to he Coca Cola Company.”
How prescient, considering how long ago the script was written!
Fido? Marcos? Can't remember. But which-ever has the paranoia with the multinationals really has a paranoia rooted in reality.
On the basis of the British invasion of Río de la Plata I have been able to establish that Argentina is in fact owned by Great Britain.
Oct 29th, 2011 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have been tabling a series of motions at the UN in order to officially establish this claim to Argentina. There is historical president for this, on the basis of an almost 200 year invasion of the Falkland Islands by a German and some British ex patriots, Argentina claims the Falkland Islands.
I can establish as historical fact that Río de la Plata was invaded by Britain and that this claim was never renounced, there is over 200 years of continued British claim to Argentina.
This makes all Argentines suject to British law and taxation. I am planning to get Buenos Aires renamed Port of Britain. Argentina will be called Bairdland, after the leader of British forces in the first occupation of Río de la Plata.
It is important to state that this did not happen just once - as in the Argentine claim to the Falklands... but twice!!
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