MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
The other side of the Rattenbach report on Malvinas war praises Argentine forces
The Rattenbach report on the performance of the Argentine armed forces during the 1982 invasion followed by the Malvinas war has been officially de-classified and Rosendo Fraga, an outstanding Argentine historian and political analyst reveals some details, which contrary to popular belief, far from condemning praise the performance of Argentine forces. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesI'm surprised the report didn't conclude that Argentina actually won. Well, if it wasn't for those pesky piratas Inglés ... :_(
Mar 25th, 2012 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0So bang goes the RG theory that they were all useless conscripts.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 11:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0So not only did they deploy their best troops, planes etc. they also had the advantage of holding the islands and still they got their arses smacked.
Just shows you what crack troops the UK forces are. Proud of each and every one of the British troops who forced a colonial power from our sovereign territory.
In this case the problem for Argentina as a military power is that the largest part of the population is derived from Italian or Spanish stock ; neither of which have distinguished themselves on the field of battle for centuries or millenia . This especially applies in the wars against the gringos.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0If Argentina was 90% German ethnic origin Britain/the Falklanders would have something real to worry about.
@3
Mar 25th, 2012 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0*facepalm*
of course, given the Germans sounding success in not only one but two world wars.
4 idiot Galgara, the German army of 1914 and 1940 was by far the superior fighting force in both those wars.....tell me again why D Day had to happen?....to regain most of German occupied Europe perhaps?
Mar 25th, 2012 - 12:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Its not very often in history that a nation has been able to fight two major wars on multiple fronts and comprehensively wipe the floor with the opposition, the fact that we had to gang up on Germany to eventually win speaks words for the martial prowess of the German army and people in both wars.
Strategicus makes a good point, the Argentine military had a startling contempt and lack of urgency for the threat posed by their British adversaries in 1982, their intelligence and threat assessments were lazy, their preparations were lazy, even the defence of the islands was fought in a lazy manner, Mendez seeming content to leave troops in strategically vulnerable positions doing very little accept waiting for the enemy, even the FAA was lazy in its actions, attacking the first ships it could find as opposed to hitting the ones that mattered i.e supply/troop ships, most reports from UK troops about the conscripts and officers pointed to a force which apparently just really couldn't be bothered to do anything right, the mine legacy is one such example....the order of the day being to toss them out from helicopters whenever they felt like it.
Praise for invading the sovereign territory of another country, occupying foreign territory, against the ill of that lands population.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 01:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What next praise for exterminating 100,000 children and young people after raping and torturing them?
Fucking NAZIS
This is a good example of what History actually is.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 01:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0History is about documents and artifacts, not events.
The events are inaccessible. So everything is subject to interpretation and interpretation is inherently unstable.
An Historian works in the present. He just puts his verbs in the past.
“was”, “were”, etc.
But he doesn't link language to reality. He links language to more language.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is the key for understanding what is about to unfold in the 21st century.
That's why E.O. Wilson the great biologist often referred to as the Darwin of today, said that the great divide in the world now is NOT between rich and poor, or between the races or sexes. It's between those who know science and those who don't.
Why? Because science links language (theory) to reality (data).
Argentinians do not link language very well.
By the time they can, and it's unlikely they will, the demographic will have changed so much it won't matter anymore.
In any event, in terms of history, though it is about documents in the present and not the past, there is still such a thing as a responsibility toward those documents and the historical narrative one creates. In short, there is such a thing as intellectual honesty.
But not in Argentina. Why? Because there's no such thing as honesty period in Argentina.
They don't have a disciplined intellect. They don't have disciplined emotions.
They are a child-people who refuse to grow up. And that is why they are so xenophobic. Because closed-minded, narrow-hearted people fear one thing above all else - Exposure. They have no boundaries among themselves and rigid boundaries with outsiders.
Fraga's version of events is glorified gossip.
Besides no country of Mama's Boys could ever have a military that can do anything more than play dress up, like the children they are.
In Argentina, they are socialized so that the men are boys and the women are men.
How could they possibly have an army that can fight?
5 Rhaurie-Craughwell
Mar 25th, 2012 - 01:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the mine legacy is one such example....the order of the day being to toss them out from helicopters whenever they felt like it.”
Their pilots had be training for the previous 15 years chucking children and teenagers out of their aircraft the same way... after they had tortured and raped them!!!!
http://www.mercopress.com/2005/09/03/us-support-to-uk-in-falklands-war-was-decisive
Mar 25th, 2012 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 09 McClick
Mar 25th, 2012 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And you can expect more of the same, whenever and wherever it's needed. The US are our kin and it was their Admirals and Generals pushing out stockpiles in 82 without approval. While Regan offered us an aircraft carrier battle group. Which we turned down.
Fact is McClick all your country is good for is raping, torturing and murdering left wing children and mounting fascist coups. Keep sucking that corporate cock boy, you know they love you.
@ 10
Mar 25th, 2012 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0God forbid !
I am not from Argentina ....
I am from Northern Hemisphere....!
The reality is clear, they sent in their best troops and best equipment and even with absolutely no moral code, they still managed to get their arses handed to them by a far smaller british force who experienced every possible failure in their preparation. Then the argentinians claimed all their military equipement in the area (ARA Saint Belgrano et al.) were simply being peaceful.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 02:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only difference is that now we know there is no blood in their lies system, and we'd be prepared and ready.
All these discussions are vainly and wasting of the time..
Mar 25th, 2012 - 03:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0BECOUSE
This conflict derived from 1850 treaty between Argentina--UK had made
which says (Convention and Settlement Agreement ) settled all differences and created perfect relations between these two nations and the islands remain British control.the Argentina Government in 1888
protesting this treaty and offering to take the matter to arbitration.Of course Britain refused and considered matter was closed.Argentina Governments did not protest British until 1941.
Both are right.....their perspectives are different...seems unsoluable...
The truth can be summed up very briefly regarding the Argentine Forces during the Falklands War:
Mar 25th, 2012 - 03:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentine Army - P*ss poor
Argentine Navy - Cowards
Argentine Airforce - Courageous
“Only last year some 45 billion USD left the country, joining assets around 240 billions which are overseas. By the way, the Kirchner's sent some 600 million Dollars, to Cayman first and then to Zürich all the funds, originated in the privatization of YPF the oil company. According with the ”Neues Züricher Zeitung“ the amount in Swiss banks, deposited by the authorities of Santa Cruz was almost 2 billion in 2004. Just 400 million USD were repatriated to Argentina on December 2004, the rest vanished or we may suspect that the banks accounts are on behalf of their ”partners”.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9155011/Peru-cancels-visit-by-British-frigate-over-Falkland-Islands.html
For those that missed it McClick admitted in a previous thread to being Argentine and was called out on it.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 06:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He likes to pretend to be a westerner but is from Argentina and if there was any doubt his language skills are clearly those of someone who has learned English as a 2nd language.
I have to say I have respect for the Argentine armed forces, not because they are good at what they do but because they stuck it out against the vastly superior British armed forces even if they massively out-numbered the British. The fact they knew there was a crushing defeat coming and they stayed there takes some bravery in my opinion.
And the Argentine Air Force did extremely well.
Anyway RIP all armed forces servicemen who lost their lives on both sides.
Why do so many Argentine bloggers pretend to be from somewhere other than Argentina? Their words would carry more weight if they admitted to being Argentine and living in Argentina.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think it's to try and perpetuate the 'whole world is in support of Argentina over the Falklands dispute' nonsense.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aussie Sunshine is another one and there's a fair few others pretending to not be from Argentina on here too.
Maybe they are ashamed of where they are from?
To be fair, although the Argentine Air Force were courageous they suffered because all their airfields were so far away from the Falklands. Their commanders seem to have no grasp of distances or that the islands were right at the edge of their flying range. They would have been better off attacking Chile first and gaining some experience, then they might have realised that the Falklands were a step too far even if they were only defended by 60 marines and an unarmed police officer. Instead they decided to attack the Falklands first as they beleived it was the easy target and planned to attack Chile later with the benefit of the much greater public support engendered by their “glorious” success in the Falklands.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Northern Hemisphere
Mar 25th, 2012 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Never heard of that country.
.
@13 geo “Argentina Governments did not protest British until 1941”
Mar 25th, 2012 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0When they thought Britain was finished. Oops backed the wrong side :))
@17 People always do this. They move away from their country (Argentina) because living there is terrible. But when they get to the new place (USA, Australia) they feel guilty and cultural isolation. So instead they compensate for their guilt of abandoning their 'homeland' by becoming massively pro-homeland.
Mar 25th, 2012 - 08:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly they're totally disconnected with the people on the ground, and end up becoming the voice of the media, which they can read from abroad. They end up feeling even more guilty, never becoming a part of their new nation and end up depressed.
This is typically for lots of migrants.
@21 Alexei (#)
Mar 25th, 2012 - 08:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Mar 25th, 2012 - 07:55 pm
Ooh. Well spotted that blogger.
21 Alexei
Mar 25th, 2012 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0in 41' they were on the wrong side and nothing has changed
@22 - That's unfortunately how a lot of these people work. They tell you how great their country is, and then you ask them why they moved away... this is usually followed by silence.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 01:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0@25 “They tell you how great their country is, and then you ask them why they moved away... this is usually followed by silence.” You are correct sir. This is very common.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 01:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0@22 GreekYoghurt : can you prove anything in your theory about Argentinians who live abroad and are supposed to feel guilty? Comments like yours are a lack of respect to people that leaves serious comments in here, whatever their ideology is.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 05:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0About me, I live in Argentina, and I am not a fan of my country. It is just not difficult for me to choose between supporting media corporations that sell lies (to argentinians, to me, to you, to everybody) and transparent information. It is not even a matter of ideology, it is a matter of accessing serious information to start a debate.
Most debates in Mercopress start with news that do not tell the whole story of a topic or start with headlines that are complete lies sometimes.
I know you will say that I am a person brainwashed or something like that, but well... I have no choice to go on telling the side of the story I believe in and to support democracy, human rights, peace... I do not like playing the game corporations like, that game's name is fascism.
I am also very critic of Argentina, we had a very awful military junta and it is something to be really ashamed, that is why I support a lot of decisions taken by CFKs Government nowadays, because they take Argentina into a deep and organic democracy. I know some of you believe the opposite, it is a shame really, because you are giving credit to corporations that give a sh?t about you or about me or about any nation, they just love money.
Apart from Malvinas, UK, Argentina or whatever. Can we at least agree that the last thing that will make the world a more SECURE place is WAR??
Look at this image:
http://www.borderexplorer.org/2009/07/4th-of-july-quotes-from-howard-zinn.html
Argentina or the UK may be discussing about these islands, but it is really nothing that involves the massive killing of people, another societies really suffer the WARS, in the US a lot of ex-soldiers commit suicide very day.
17 ElaineB ----Why do so many Argentine bloggers pretend to be from somewhere other than Argentina? Their words would carry more weight if they admitted to being Argentine and living in Argentina
Mar 26th, 2012 - 07:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Simply put they are cowards. There is no other word for it.
I appreciate your all India accented English !
Mar 26th, 2012 - 08:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Be care on my comment writing time is not from Argentina where 05.38 right now.
#17 Or it may simply be that we are from where we say we are, I know I am at least =) My Queen has supporters all over the world =)
Mar 26th, 2012 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0CIS's ...23 March 2012 dated article written by you ?
Mar 26th, 2012 - 09:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0“” Murray's Future Fund brace is broken “”
http://www.cis.org.au/
The only reason they use English names, is to look inteligent,
Mar 26th, 2012 - 11:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0end of,,,,
#19 Rico
Mar 26th, 2012 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, The Argentine Airforce were a long way from the Falklands and it was a long round trip. It was dangerous and no one would say that the pilots were not courageous. However, the Sea Harrier pilots had to take off and attack often in atrocious weather and then find their way back to their carrier and then land on a pitching deck - even more difficult than heading for your own country and safety. For them it was find your ship or ditch in the sea.
Because of the R.N.'s missile systems, the Argentine Airforce had to attack at low level. The bombs were fused to allow the aircraft to escape before they detonated. Attacking as they did, the bombs in many cases had not enough time to arm and so failed to go off. Was this a thought out strategy by our naval commanders ? Ship losses were expected - even the loss of a carrier.
Critics wrote off the Sea Harrier as no match against its supersonic rivals.
However, they were proved totally wrong. I can remember an US Airforce General commenting on the possible outcome of the air war. He had seen and witnessed the Sea Harriers performance against the best NATO fighters.
His quote was “It will be like hawks against chickens”
No doubt , we will get postings from The Argentinians saying “if we had moved our best fighters to Stanley then things would have been different” Possibly so.
If the RN had kept its proper carriers with Phantoms, Buccaneers and Gannet AEW then the invasion would never have taken place.
( 32 )
Mar 26th, 2012 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You refer my name ?
@27 We can agree that the British and Falkland Islanders never wanted any war. We can agree that the war you caused, you lost. We can agree that no one wants another war.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only thing we cannot agree on is whether Argentina will cause another one, because lets face it, they will.
This report is like everything out of BA these past 3 yrs... anything that is anti-Malvinas is despised and hidden - an almost a Nazi like zeal to concentrate on anything but the dire situation at home and on the Argentine infrastructure that is falling apart. The current fascist Argentine Government is obfuscating to hide its “at home” economic failures - just like the military dictatorship of 50 yrs ago. This war is again a ruse. This government stifles open thought and disagreement and destroys its critics. It has a twisted “say anything” Argentine obsession with the Falklands War. This report is like defending the Bay of Pigs Invasion of Cuba by the USA... a huge monster perversely bent on imposing its will on an unwilling host... Argentina's old world claims remind one of Russia's over Manchuria or Finland or Canada over Alaska... illogical and anti-democratic
Mar 26th, 2012 - 02:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0( 36 )
Mar 26th, 2012 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You say :
I am Doctor Don.......
I say :
I know “” Doctrine of Lapse “”.....!
Guys, one thing to get sorted out here, the government is not fascist...far from it, they are a bunch of populist lefties with a strong social agenda. Their economics are also about as anti free market (and therefore right) as you can get. Happy for you to say what you want about the government, and their policies, but if you just call them fascist all the time you end up sounding like the blinkered and brain-washed people you revile and criticise on here...
Mar 26th, 2012 - 03:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#36 If its so like the Bay of Pigs, why is Cuba supporting my Queen?
Mar 26th, 2012 - 03:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@39 In a word 'hypocrisy'. In another word 'racism'. They really don't like 'Gringo'. In the words of the former president of Brazil: “Gente branca, com olhos azuis' gerou crise” - “White people with blue eyes caused the crisis”.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 034 Tipsy Think
Mar 26th, 2012 - 05:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0( 32 )
You refer my name ?
Ah ,an intelligent think, we thinks ?
.
“that field and air defence artillery” .... where they had an outstanding performance”.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 05:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Say no more, Thank you !! :-))
( 36 )
Mar 26th, 2012 - 05:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Doctor Don .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_lapse
Thats 100 years out of date,
Mar 26th, 2012 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0unless one is refering to the new evolved version, by CFK .
now thats recent .lol.
@27 Just as a matter of interest, why would you imagine that any argie deserves “respect”. Respect is something that you give to someone that you, to whatever extent, admire. Could you identify one argie, anywhere in the world, that is worth admiring? Perhaps you should try to recognise that CFK embraces and promotes corporatism. As long as they are her corporations.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 06:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tell you what, one way or another, we are going to DESTROY you gangsters. Just give us an excuse. I don't think you understand what you could face. British forces, ex-forces and innumerable ordinary people would gladly travel to the South Atlantic to turn you lot into MUSH!
You don't want a WAR? That's fine. There's a bunch of Islands. I forget the names. They BELONG to US. BACK OFF!
@30 You are having a problem with your keyboard. But we understood anyway. You said “I'm Queer and take suppositories all over the world!”
@39 There hasn't been a “brain” on Cuba in the last hundred years.
MistyThink + TipsyThink = PissedThink.
@38 I'd disagree with you. In political science, Peronism is supposed to be the 'third position', neither communist nor fascist. Let's face it, this 'Front for Victory' government is devoutly Peronist and shows elements of both sides.
Mar 26th, 2012 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I recall it gets its anticapitalist stance from a blend of Bolshevism and gets its ultranationalist stance from a type of neo-Fascism called Strasserism which was popular in Germany. That was itself a common component of German Nazism.
So you can hardly call them “populist lefties with a strong social agenda” well, that's only a part of the story, but you can also call them a bunch of anticapitalist fascists, and you'd still be right.
( 45 )
Mar 26th, 2012 - 07:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Gin mixed with White Wine + Chocolate = What a wonderful world !
So the Argies won the war!
Mar 27th, 2012 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Oh, I almost forgot, they had to go back to the mainland for a rest and will be back soon. They wish.
Political analyst Rosendo Fraga reminds me of Ian Richardson in the brilliant 'House of Cards' programme, only he lacks the intellect of the 'Francis Urquhart' character but retains all the smarmy looks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylu3x72WHTs
@35 GreekYoghurt: Of course that the war was caused by the stupid Argentinian military junta... how can we not agree in that?
Mar 28th, 2012 - 01:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0But are you sure Mrs. Tatcher didn't want a war? It was what she needed indeed... And war was the perfect excuse... The UK knew it couldn't go too far claiming the sovereignty of the Islands through diplomacy...
And please be sure that some corporative groups in the UK are always happy to celebrate wars, it is their business.
45 Conqueror@ HAHA please! you are not helping the side you support showing that xenophobic attitude. Your words sound like a character from a movie really. This is my favorite part of your comment: “we are going to DESTROY you gangsters” HAHAHA. I really don't know if you are really serious or if you are just trying to bring some humor to these discussions.
Maybe typing these authoritarian paragraphs is your way of feeling masculine or brave or smth like that?
I will leave the image again:
Look at this image:
www.borderexplorer.org/2009/07/4th-of-july-quotes-from-howard-zinn.html
For all those little-minded people that thinks war defend their rights and little lives.... how silly, soldiers work for corporations and many of them die thinking they do it for their flag...
Please watch this short educational video on Argentina - it's hilarious...
Mar 31st, 2012 - 12:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinas vs Falklands: Negotiations with the U.N.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vys78sGB7Y
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