MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
YPF nationalization bill does not contemplate compensations, says Kirchnerite Senator
Senator from the Argentine ruling majority and former cabinet chief, Aníbal Fernández assured that the government “will pay the real price for the expropriation of YPF and not what Repsol’s chairman (Antonio Brufau) wants.” Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules@Fernandez
Apr 24th, 2012 - 06:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Argentina’s legal security without noting that the possibility of expropriating a company is contemplated in the National Constitution, and as a matter of fact it’s also included in the Spanish Constitution”.
Sure mate and the Spanish have used pretty well that article 30 years ago with RUMA SA without paying a single $ to shareholders.
http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/01/22/economia/1264190214.html
If was legal for Spain is legal for Argentina, Fair is fair
Dany that maybe true but that was over thirty years ago. We judge everyone by there actions that was done along time ago. For example Russia finally got accepted into the WTO. We could simply say no because they were a communist country 30 years ago. No. To out simply. Things move on. What may have been acceptable then is not really acceptable now.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 06:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am British and I agree that Argentina should, if they want take control of thier own assessts. I just disagree with the way it has be done. It could have been dealt with much easier and better. The Argentine government treated YPF and Repsol with disdain. Forcing down the value of the shares so that it would be cheaper to compensate.
Then again. I am slowly learning the politics of SA and its history. I am no way an expert in this. Just giving my opinion.
“Fair is fair” - Ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right?
Apr 24th, 2012 - 06:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Also that was 30 years ago where things were quite different.
Or we could take a different tact, given Argentina invaded the Falkland's during the same era then its only fair Spain uses its large navy to forcibly take assets from Argentina now. Especially since Argentina used to belong to Spain, its just re-taking what it believes it owns in the same way Argentina has been trying to re-take the Falklands.
After all, Fair is fair and all that........
@3 Xect. What would your opinion be if Argentina was to compensate YPF and Repsol fairly? Trust me I am not a fan of the Kirchner clan and I believe the Argentinian people deserve better. The mistak eArgentina made was selling these assests in the first place. Which has left them in a difficult position. Importing vasts amount of gas and oil. From that angle I can see why they have done what they have done. I don't agree with how they did it. It is a national assest belonging to Argentina.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 06:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0My opinion is, it still would wrong and amoral but at least it will go someway to righting the rather obvious wrongs.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0YPF was sold in the first place as it was a failed organisation and achieved the quite difficult accolade of being an oil company sat on huge reserves and managing to consistently lose money.
Selling it was arguably one of the only reasonable decisions the government has made in recent times.
The oil is a national asset, YPF is most certainly not, it is a private company that does not belong to the Argentine government.
If Argentina wanted to do it the right way and not steal assets it would have withdrawn the oil field licenses and invited another company or created a new company to extract the oil.
ARGY thieves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apr 24th, 2012 - 07:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0No suprises there then. At this rate YPF will be getting a bill from them for outsanding monies owed. Lying bastards.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 07:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Dani. Rumasa was stealing from its shareholders, not to mention borrowing against phantom assets. They were less than honest and committed crimes. That's why Rumasa was expropriated. And it's happened again. Nueva Rumasa has collapsed also in scandalous circumstances. A lot of people think the Ruiz-Mateos family are a bunc of crooks.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 08:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Very different to the Repsol/YPF situation... where it's the Argentine government with KFC at it's head who are the thieves and crooks.
@5, Okay you identified the legal and moral of doing it rather than stealing. That in my mind would be fair. I really do feel for YPF and Repsol. This has been handled terribly.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0Let's face facts, it's like watching a prison fight with two crooks knocking the hell out of each other about who's cigarette it is.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 10:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0The thinking man wouldn't have approached Argtardia with a sh!tty stick, unless they were managing a weird fund that required massive risk and no returns.
Either way, nationalisation should involve the prior agreed purchase of the company at market values. Just taking something, because you like it, is petty theft. In this case it's widespread institutionalised theft. In other cases it's territorial theft.
Apparently the morality of the situation pays no part in the thoughts of the Argentine.
@4 Could you clarify something? Why do you “believe the Argentinian people deserve better”? Take a look at this little vido clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xqwNsmzCbM
Apr 24th, 2012 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0It shows the reaction of the “Argentinian people” to the underhand and unprovoked attack on and invasion of a small island group 400 miles away. An island group, incidentally, that has NEVER been legally theirs. And if you keep up, you will note that they haven't changed to any noticeable degree in the last 30 years. The best that “the Argentinian people” deserve is compulsory sterilisation followed by what they most like to hand out - extermination. To support that I point to the illustration on one of their “currency” notes. They actually continue to celebrate their 'Conquest of the Desert' and extermination of the native peoples every day.
I believe that many people (Brits, Falkland Islanders and the like) come here in order to make it clear that the events of 30 years ago were not down to a small group of military leaders then governing the country, but to 90% or more of the argie population. And they haven't changed. They are still into forcibly seizing anything their greedy little hearts desire. Irrespective of legality, morality, justification or anything else a proper human being would consider.
I feel that many people who have watched them for a while, and especially those who have had to experience their attitudes and actions, would not be completely averse to them starting something again so that they could really be given what they deserve. The only people in the area that deserve something better are the few remaining native people. I do not count 'mestizos' as native people.
I agree with Xect but with a caveat. In order for something to be a 'national asset' you first have to have a 'nation'. Argies aren't a 'nation'. They are the descendents of invaders, conquerors, murderers, genocides and thieves. And they try to live up to and continue their abominable history.
So then, who is going to sue KFC for Will full destruction of a country's ecomony, Lying to everyone, cheating her own people and ruining Argentina's reputation.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 12:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@11, The reason I believe they deserve betrer is because I served with some Argentiinian soldiers. I joined the Royal Artillery in 2002. In 2004 I served in Cyprus on the UNICYP mission there with 40 Regt RA. Our AO was nieghboured with the Argentinian AO and we met regulary and had joint bbq and watched the euro finals together that were held in Greece at the time.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I enjoyed there company and were normal every day people. When we did discuss the falklands it was apparent that a lot of the population can be easily persuaded and moved into a nationalistic frenzy. At the time and like now it is easy for the current govenments to use properganda to gain national sentiment and disdain for an old enemy i.e. Britain. This however is not shared by all or even if it has they admitted that they were taken by it at the time.
So yes I feel they do deserve better. I would the majority of people are ordinary folk who just want to make a living adn get by. Just like me. To suggest a extermination of an entire population you have become worse than Kirchner. It puts you up there with Pol Pot, Hitler and the likes.
Trust me when I say. No one wants to hurt innocent civilians. If they do, then they are horrible people that should look in the mirror and try and find some humunity. Because you sir, by the sounds of it, have none.
@Bombadier Spoon
Apr 24th, 2012 - 12:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The partial nationalisation of YPF is similar to the nationalisation of the banks made by UK in 2008 and 2009 or those made in US but in English.
info from the books made by the Spanish, shows Repsol was damaging Arg. Interests by driving the company to a slowly collapse, jeopardising the entire domestic oil market. As YPF was the major player in the field.
Clear is the fact that the company reported 1.5bn in earnings and distributed 3bn in dividend by creating artificial debt over the company.
In any part of the world this is called fraud from any point of view.
This is not new coming from the Spanish fancy way of doing business.
“I just disagree with the way it has be done” The board was several times advised over this situation there are even public statement about this issue. They just didn’t care like your CEO bankers don’t care about the bonus policy in UK.
When a rumour from a newspaper took place about that the Arg. govt, could take measures over the company, the minister José Manuel Soria from Spanish govt. threat Argentina saying that any action by AR go will have consequences as he was the King of the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFYxdK0GNXs
I guess they got the message now about who is in position to threat who. Who do you thing is scare now about the consequences? The Arg. govt. can nationalise Telefonica, Spanish banks and a lot of Spanish companies that will put Spain belly up. And you know what?
“I am British” If you are British I will advise you to have an eye over your airports and Santander blank sorry I mean bank (Blank check come to my mind), before they left you belly up.
While Ana Botin, daughter of Emilio Botín owner of Santander bank, reported in UK 40% down in profits She cashed a succulent bonus of 4bn Quids. Is not amazing how these people made money while companies go into red?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFYxdK0GNXs
So thge headline is “no compensation” yet the first paragraph says he actually said “we'll pay the fair price and not what they're demanding”, anyone detect bias here?
Apr 24th, 2012 - 12:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@14 Yet again, the nationalisation of YPF isn't the problem, the issue is with the manner to which it was bought. You cannot just take something someone else owns without providing them with suitable reparations. You also cannot do this completely disregarding the Argentine constitution, because that just makes your country look terrible.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0We all understand that Spanish companies haven't got a great record over investment into British airports, nor particularly with their banking, but it's unthinkable that you would simply expropriate them, without the typical judicial process that supports taking over the resource again.
Yet again, you have to consider what path you are going down by 'taking' banks, phone companies and oil companies. You're making your country unsuitable for investment and you're basically driving yourself into a socialist system where it's all centrally governed.
Is this what you really want? 1930s Russia? North Korea?
@ Danny
Apr 24th, 2012 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The partial nationalisation of YPF is similar to the nationalisation of the banks made by UK in 2008 and 2009 or those made in US but in English.”
Eh? The UK nationalised banks to save them, not for the governments personal gain, in fact nationalising backs cost the UK government billions!
Not to mention unlike YPF didn't was taken by force as opposed to the UK banks asking the Government to save them.
You absolutely couldn't of picked a more different set of events!
17 Xect. The banks were not nationalised. They are independent, the UK government is the largest share holder in some of the banks, that's not the same as nationalising them.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Repsol should of read the small letters you would think spain would have lawyers who would take the time to read the small letters, if they did they would of invested in Argentina rather then send the cash to Mexico or brazil, but they didn't read the contract and wasted the money doing the opposite. The justice system had no other option but to punish them and I support Argentina on this, if they break our laws they must be punished or sent back home.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/
@19 PH. yet just over a year ago, CFK was praising them.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 04:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Not to mention no rules and/or laws were broken Pirat is talking out of his proverbial rear-end.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 04:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you want to support Argentina's blatant and shameless theft of a foreign asset then by all means embarrass yourself like the Argentine government has!
And then to top it all he posts a link that has zero to do with the subject......
To copy an old headline from the Sun news paper. Will the last business leaving the country, please turn off the lights.
Apr 24th, 2012 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 021 Xect (#)
Apr 24th, 2012 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Apr 24th, 2012 - 04:48 pm
Of course PH supports “Argentina's blatant and shameless theft of a foreign asset ” without any embarrassment, he works for the damned government.
To copy an old headline from TV-Quick 'I never knew my husband was a woman until I found his member under the bed one day when I was watching enders and corrie'
Apr 24th, 2012 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ GreekYoghurt
Apr 25th, 2012 - 10:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0Instead of criticising others better read the list of compulsory expropriations made by UK.
UK didn’t pay bankers yet. So you lovely UK is not a good example of repeat for the rule of law and private property.
@Xect
This is your point of view and opinion but not the shareholder opinions they are still claiming to be paid.
The bank is not that wasn’t profitable, they suffer a run and in current Fractional Banking System, any profitable bank suffering a run due to bad economy policy by govt. can end belly up.
So the normal procedure is to assist the bank throughout the central bank to provide liquidity if that is not enough the bank goes into liquidation. The rest of the banks are called to make an offer over the assets of the bank. Shareholders get one of the offers and none feel hurt (is called capitalism).
Instead your UK Marxist govt. expropriated the banks without given that alternative to private owners.
They are right to claim to UK govt. a fair compensation for all assets sized and billions on damages.
@ reality check
“The banks were not nationalised. They are independent, the UK government is the largest share holder in some of the banks, that's not the same as nationalising them.”
The Arg. State also was part of the board of YPF with power of veto thanks to their golden shares.
YPF after the go of the Spanish continue to be a SA (Private Corporation), where the state AKA taxpayers acts as another shareholder so Arg. taxpayer owns the 51% of the company now.
Is the same example so tell me why yours is better than the Argies? Because you don’t like them?
“PH. yet just over a year ago, CFK was praising them”
This shows that the govt. didn’t have any animosity toward them and that is able to punish anyone that breaks the law. Is called “impartiality”.
@Xect
The only one to feel embarrassment here should be British as they lead the rank of expropriation the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization#United_Kingdom
#25 “Instead your UK Marxist govt. expropriated the banks without given that alternative to private owners.
Apr 25th, 2012 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are right to claim to UK govt. a fair compensation for all assets sized and billions on damages.”
I love the role reversal here - if your being ironic to show up the hypocrisy of Argentina's critics. If you actiually believe my government is Marxist though I can assure you its not! =(
@British_Kirchnerist
Apr 26th, 2012 - 10:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0I’m showing the little head here that none can criticise Argentina or any other country for they own sovereign decisions.
“if your being ironic to show up the hypocrisy of Argentina's critics” of course you are right like the tube stops in Victory Station and in Vic sounds classic music.
“If you actiually believe my government is Marxist though I can assure you its not!”
Of course I know UK is not a Marxist country but if brits want to becomes Marxist is their prerogative what is the problem? meanwhile UK doesn’t want to impose the regime to other countries is fine for me.
Beijing, April 24 (PRCNA) – Luigi Gatti, Argentine Special Representative Liaison to the People’s Republic of China, met and had a talk in a friendly atmosphere with Vice-President Li Wuwei, vice-chairman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Committe.
Apr 26th, 2012 - 11:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0The head of the delegation offered warm congratulations to President Cristina Fernandez on her successful repatriation of YPF holdings back under rightful control of the Argentine people.
Noting that the Chinese people recollect with deep emotion the efforts made by leader Cristina Fernandez for the strengthening and development of Sino-Argentine friendship, he added that the bilateral friendship is developing as the days go by under the deep care of the supreme leaders of the two parties and the two countries. In the agreement announced, China acknowledges that the Malvinas rightfully belong to the Argentine people. The Argentinean minister present reiterated the strong fraternal alliance with China and mentioned that both the island of Formosa as well as the Tibetan regions rightfully is an undeniable part of the People’s Republic of China. He further mentioned that the Dali Llama was not welcome in Argentina and would not be granted a visa. The Chinese committee wished the Argentine people greater successes in the building of a thriving nation, united close behind the spirit of Justicialismo headed by President Fernandez. He expressed the will to join the Argentine and Chinese comrades together in making positive efforts to boost the friendly ties between two countries.
#27 “Of course I know UK is not a Marxist country but if brits want to becomes Marxist is their prerogative what is the problem? meanwhile UK doesn’t want to impose the regime to other countries is fine for me”
Apr 26th, 2012 - 12:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Agreed =)
#28 You're having a laugh!
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