MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Latam Nobel Prize blames Peronism for Argentina’s “self destruction” addiction
Literature Nobel Prize Mario Vargas Llosa blamed Peronism for the self-destruction which is leading Argentina to underdevelopment, poverty and populism, and compared the dominating political movement trajectory to that which took Adolf Hitler to power. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThis guy is a very clever man and has illuminated a large truth about Argentina since Peron came to power. Argentina will only start to move forward when it throws Peronism into the dustbin of history along with KFC and her budding dynasty.It says something that she is travelling through the wilds of Angola touting for business at the same time as members of the G20 are seriously considering kicking Argentina out of that organisation.
May 18th, 2012 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nail, Hit, head, and dead centre, are words that come to mind reading that article..... Not that the malvinist muppets that usually post here will accept, recognise or understand it truth and significance.
May 18th, 2012 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ooooh, look at that. A Nobel Laureate that doesn't have a “CFK-brown” tongue. Can't wait to see the argie bloggers lashing in to him. Of course, he seems to have been educated before “Peronism”. He doesn't appear to have a lot of time for CFK and her short-term, populist, thieving policies. How MUCH has she stolen now? Is she still looking for a “palace” to retire to? Best be in argieland, eh? Or perhaps THAT would be a mistake. People are going to be pretty annoyed once they realise how much they've been screwed!
May 18th, 2012 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Seems accurate perception that CFK is a part of (but unfortunately, only a small part of ) : “...flagrant example” of that “self-destructive vocation” in which Argentina has been trapped for years.
May 18th, 2012 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wiki: ”Perón and his administration resorted to systematically organized violence or dictatorial rule”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peronism
He only lives in his novels not in real world............
May 18th, 2012 - 07:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has never been a Peronist !
@5
May 18th, 2012 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sorry, but he is right Think. What foreigners don't understand is that Peronism is not an ideology, and what Argentines don't understand is that Peronism is not a set of values.
Peronism is a sham because it is the ultimate form of political expediency.
Who privatized YPF? Peronists.
Who renationalized it? Peronists.
Who opened the economy too abruptly? Peronists.
Who is closing the economy too much? Peronists.
That's the problem. Peronism is just cheap political populism. It has no values, its just a front for politicians to have a job, whatever the cost. That is the problem, not the original Peronist policies, some good (workers rights, strategic resources in national hands), som bad (fascist tendencies and harrassment of the press).
When I say to get rid of Peronism, it is not to get rid of what was once an ideology (though for the 21st century outdated), it is to get rid of cheap populism that uses the “Peronist” party to get elected.
Think about it... is there any other political party on earth that can have Communists, fascists, democrats, republicans, neoliberals, and populists in its midst in just the last 20 years? Yet Duhalde (corrupt, but a republican), Menem (neoliberal), CFK (populist), etc, etc... what kind of political party is that?
It isn't. It's just a vehicle to win votes. And as such it promeses whatever people want to hear, or takes up the mantra of the ideology popular at the time of election (be it neoliberalism, populism, socialism, whatever).
Tobias.
May 18th, 2012 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Good posting. What in your opinion is the answer to breaking the cycle.
Ok, so whats the solution?
May 18th, 2012 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0leave the falklands alone
May 18th, 2012 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0is a start
IIII
May 18th, 2012 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your all sentences are true........
Peronism(in theoretically)was born a synthesis of urban/rural interests
in a pot on resume of the period of European origin capital going out which once parked in Argentina after the WW II..........
But powerfull rural and stray urban crowds pulled together undermined the system over time with sneaky backing to military coups chains.
After 70s years on ,the country quickly convert itself to subcontractor role like getting involved in the -- Condor Operations-- and some others..
Believe me ..the last 10years is Argentina's golden most successful years
going on despite of some fluctuations and infamous politic/magazine characters.........
Amzing what a check from the CIA can do to people..
May 18th, 2012 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Llosa: It will be good if you say the same critizism to the invasion by uk and USA to Irak,aghfanistan,breaking all the possible international law.
What a simplified summary of this incompetent guy.
Just stick to literature.I do not like the way you write,but many people do...
Mr Llosa is so right.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peronism is a blend of Socialism and fascism. It is a conglomeration of Unions, governmnet cronies, favored industries with totalitarian squashing of dissent and loss of property rights. The sad fact is that Mr Obama is leading the USA on a similar path. Maybe Obama wasn't born in Kenya but rather in Argentina.
Mr Llosa is so right.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peronism is a blend of Socialism and fascism. It is a conglomeration of Unions, governmnet cronies, favored industries with totalitarian squashing of dissent and loss of property rights. The sad fact is that Mr Obama is leading the USA on a similar path. Maybe Obama wasn't born in Kenya but rather in Argentina
Again is an oversimplification....
He es an INCOMPETENT analist.
Better stick to literature,Mr llosa(and enjoy the check from the CIA)
Nationalism is the root of the problem. Peronism has cultivated and utilized it very well. And now they feed off each other. For example las malvinas -issue- unites ALL Argentines (as the saying goes) whether they are peronists or not.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As long as all the non peronist malvinistas (middle class and the rich) are in line with the peronistas on this issue the peronist -governments- will remain.
Heres a tip to the middle class and rich. (I know. I'm that important and clever). Next time the government waffles on about Las Malvinas instead of saying -Yeah, we dont agree with your government BUT we agree with your stance on the las malvinas -issue- just tell them to stfu and concentrate on managing the country in a effective way. Or better still provide a better alternative government. Don't allow yourselves to be distracted!!
Nationalism is the root of the problem. Peronism has cultivated and utilized it very well. And now they feed off each other. For example las malvinas -issue- unites ALL Argentines (as the saying goes) whether they are peronists or not
May 18th, 2012 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure and before Peron,why do not ask,how the social clases in Argentina,were..The oligarchy,and the poor..very little middle class.
Just ask the average people in Argentina,before Peron came to power.......
BTW,is up to the people to improve the things in Argentina...
CFK won because the others were much worse than her....
Direct Democracy is the way out.....The politicians suck,worldwide...
@6
May 18th, 2012 - 08:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Nice post.
When it was an ideology, before it became a sham, did it work?
How can it ever have worked? Peronism requires that the majority remain poor, ignorant and dependent on it or it simply wouldn't exist.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17
May 18th, 2012 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't know. I am just wondering if there were some improvements in society the first time round.
@Malvinero
Did Borges also get a check from the CIA?
II 17 II
May 18th, 2012 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0dont be jackal ....be cougar ......!
Tobias, finally a post that make sense.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wesley mouch, the problem in the US is that there are idiots like you who still believe that there are true differences between the GOP and DEMS. News for you chump, there is no difference between Obummer and Mittens Draft Dodger Romney. That Patty Obozo the Irish Kenyan is born in Kenya is old news while most who voted for Clown McCain during the elections of 2008, forgot and never mentioned that he is born in Panama, not US territory at all and never was (even when they built the Panama Canal).
Argenweeners problem not ours, i couldnt care less about Argenweeners recovery the worse the better, if they wish to head for the rocks with that peronist ghoul at the helm thats their lookout they have had enough warnings, If the population wanted her out there would be riots and she would be out along with her travelling circus, so for the lack of unrest you can assume the majority are on board her cruise of Self destruction.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The country deserves the government it has! All aboard!!!
not US territory at all and never was (even when they built the Panama Canal).
May 18th, 2012 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Panama Canal Zone (Spanish: Zona del Canal de Panamá) was a 553-square-mile (1,430 km2) unorganized U.S. territory located within the Republic of Panama, consisting of the Panama Canal and an area generally extending five miles (8.0 km) on each side of the centerline, but excluding Panama City and Colón, which otherwise would have been partly within the limits of the Canal Zone. Its border spanned two of Panama's provinces and was created on November 18, 1903 with the signing of the Hay-Bunau Varilla Treaty. When reservoirs were created to assure a steady supply of water for the locks, those lakes were included within the Zone.
II 20 II
May 18th, 2012 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Some US internet commentators where i read do not think like you about B.Obama saying not born in Kenya,but even if from Kenya claimed that he was adopted child.
I thought he was born in hawaii of a Kenyan father and an American mother.
May 18th, 2012 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Does it matter where someone is born?
May 18th, 2012 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0III 24 III
May 18th, 2012 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thats just CIA saying !
he could be adopted child which i believe it !
@26
May 18th, 2012 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What would be the CIAs interest in lying about where he was born?
III 27 III
May 18th, 2012 - 08:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0maybe...to mask their disgraces !
@25 C
May 18th, 2012 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think, I'm sure that, only Americans, born in America can hold the office of President. Whilst I do not like the man, yes, because he is a little anti Brit. I think the smear campaign over his eligibilty, demanding to see his birth certificate etc, is dispicable. The man won the presidency fairly, if they do not like him. There is always the next election.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@Malvinero
May 18th, 2012 - 09:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did Borges also get a check from the CIA?
I do not know,condorito.But he was an elitist.....Before supported the military,after he was against...
But llosa will be more credible.if he disclosed the wrondoing everywhere....menem was peronist also..llosa liked menem.for many menem was a disgrace to Argentina....
becouse that
May 18th, 2012 - 09:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0he had grown up in isolated places like Indonesia /Hawai..not USA land
during and after university life had family ties off.
thats just one of classic CIA faults.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@Malvinero
May 18th, 2012 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think he supported the military because they would get rid of Peron, who he despised. The military is fine for a while but then they must go.
So, it seems quite rational that Borges wanted them, then he didn't.
Anyway, I just wanted to know if he was getting a check from the CIA. I hope he wasn't.
Llosa is only a writer. You can't expect him to write, win the NP and expose all wrongdoing in the world!
III 20 III
May 18th, 2012 - 09:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0are you convinced now ?
@ 34 Perón was a general, what are you talking about? You talk to that sh*t of malvinero as if he is some kind of master hahaha are you a worm? What about some dignity?
May 18th, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@33 -SussieUS. I have reported your post to the moderators to have your vile comments removed.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you can't add anything worthwhile to this discussion then don't post.
Regarding the story. Many people are warning Argentina that they are teetering on the edge of economic oblivion. It's time for your politicians to grow up, take upon themselves the responsibility for the state of the economy, and do something to prevent what appears to be an imminent collapse. Tough times require people making tough and often unpopular decisions to get the jobs done.
Populist governments never solve anything.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0a Chile Mercopress crew-- blackbox-- singing out
May 18th, 2012 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Peron was Colonel not General !
I'm not sure how the Peruvian Nobel Laureate's opinions on Argentina morphed into anti-Obama views. But just a few pieces of common sense for the discussion: There are plenty of documented pictures of StanleyAnn Obama in 1960 and 1961 in Hawaii, visibly and heavily pregnant. She was 18 years old and a poor undergraduate student.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. It is unlikely there were any flights from Hawaii to Kenya that she and her equally poor-as-a-church-mouse husband could afford.
2. It is unlikely that any airline in 1961 would have allowed a heavily pregnant woman aboard a trans-pacific flight to Africa (no mistaking her for a dainty at 8 months along).
3. In 1961 the Republic of Kenya still had many problems with communicable diseases. I cannot imagine that a heavily pregnant StanleyAnn Obama would want to fly all the way to Kenya, give birth, and then immediately fly back to Hawaii. FYI there are pictures of Obama as a young baby in Hawaii that have been publicized.
4. Obama's timeline of living arrangements is as follows:
Hawaii ages 0-6 y.o. (his father left when he was 2 1/2)
Indonesia ages 6-10
Hawaii ages 11-18 (lived with his grandparents).
I do not think that Obama is Kenyan or Indonesian. He was raised by his Kansan mother until age 10 and entirely by his Kansan grandparents until age 18. Culturally he is a cross between Kansan plain spoken stoicism and Hawaiian relaxed island state of mind. Both are part of the polyglot of American immigrant cultures that overwhelmed aboriginal peoples' territories.
Obama's neutral stance on the Falklands/Malvinas is really the equivalent of an approval of the UK when it comes to regional summits. Without a “yes” vote, Argentina can't get anywhere on the issue. The position of official neutrality is a continuation of the Reagan position from 1982. So it's a Republican foreign policy position.
Back to SuperMario, I agree with him: Peronism = Kleptocracy / Idiocracy / Ruinocracy.
@ 33 wow
May 18th, 2012 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@xbarilox
May 18th, 2012 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was asking the forum, not Malvinero specifically. Malvinero answered.
That doesn't make him a master or me a worm.
I know Peron had an army background. By “military” I was refering to the coups that came before him and after him.
Quite straight forward really.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Peron presidency did bring workers to the mainstream, before that workers had few or no rights in Argentina. Peron also did foster some industrialization, the problem is that the projects were not seen through do to political instability.
May 18th, 2012 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Remember, as an example, that Argentina was one of the first countries in the world to build fighter jets... but political instability killed the project.
Editorial Atlantida was the largest printing press in the Spanish world, until Peron got into a fight with them.
III 40 III
May 18th, 2012 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Almost everybody knows you write of them.
Lets test you about Obama !
Q :
Who is --Halima-- in B.Obama life ?
A :
....................................................
You cant find the answer in YouTube/Wikipedia/Facebook/Twittter.
Dont you have sources other than YouTube/Wikipedia/Facebook/Twitter?
May 18th, 2012 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@44
May 18th, 2012 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least there were some positives then.
Oh well, look at that it's beer O'clock.
Happy weekending.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 18th, 2012 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great posts, tobias, please accept my congratulations on a very succint and sensible explanation of peronism.
May 19th, 2012 - 01:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Vargas Llosa is a very intelligent person who has always had a special feeling for Argentina because of Borges, who he always said was one of the greatest writers in the Spanish language. He also always hated peronism. And he is absolutely right about the fact that peronism is a multi-flavour placebo given to the people to keep them voting for the populists.
When did Argentina stop being the 5th richest country in the world? Was it when Peron returned from his facist education in Italy?
May 19th, 2012 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0@xbarilox
May 19th, 2012 - 04:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0I was asking the forum, not Malvinero specifically. Malvinero answered.
That doesn't make him a master or me a worm.
I know Peron had an
Do nto worry condorito..Xbarilox,is a pendex..still has to grow up...
Still I like xbari..
Wow, everyone is trying to get in to the act. Even Mario Vargas Llosa is smashing CFK and the Argentine model.
May 19th, 2012 - 06:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0Just to think only 6 months ago some Argentines were telling me that in a few years they would become a “trillion dollar economy.” I told them that they should get off the drugs as it was affecting their brains. Now we find ourselves here, at the edge of the cliff. Where's Cristina? In Angola, sure thats gotta help, right?
I feel so sorry for the hard working investors from Chile that have poured so much effort and money into Argentina. More than US$16 billion. For little Chile this is a considerable investment, in fact it is almost three times the defence budget.
I hope they don't lose too much dough, as for Argentina, what next? Can they worm their way out of this mess? Will there be an Angolan led recovery?
Is the all new Cristina dance review going to take the world by storm? Or will all the Argentines have to jump aboard Morenos's ARK?
Buena suerte primos.
This guy is a notorious right winger, he lost the Peruvian election in 1990 for being too openly, militantly neoliberal. His Nobel Prize was in literature, not peace.
May 19th, 2012 - 08:44 am - Link - Report abuse 0On the issue of Peronism, if it really covers the whole spectrum from fascist right through to trotskyist, which it has done, then it surely can't itself be the cause of any particular problems. For example the problems created by Menem are now being olved by Cristina To me it seems a historical label reflecting the long ban on Peron and his supporters from 1955-73, after which the divisions between them quickly came to the surface with Isabel initiating the dirty war against left activists like Nestor and Cristina. The label still exists but is far less important these days as a movement than Kirchnerism, which has supplanted Peronism in its most healthy left and centre-left elements. I hope Cristina will eventully follow the example of Chavez in 2005 and declare herself a socialist, but I don't mind about lables too much as actions speak louder than words
I'm glad to see that post 33 has been removed.
May 19th, 2012 - 10:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0[ Halima ] was the servant of Ann Dunham Obama from Jakarta years..the husband of [ Halima ] name is Omar was an employee in a college of Jakarta.
May 19th, 2012 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is plainly evident to all in the free-thinking World and to some Argentinians that CFK and her politburo are completely out of their depth and couldn't run a corner shop.
May 19th, 2012 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All of those short-term economic gains made by protectionism and nationalisation made by the erratic government of the Argentine will come back and haunt them.
@ tobias
May 19th, 2012 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“what kind of political party is that?”
Pragmatic party perhaps?
Oops before you shoot me I’m not Peronist , running running......
BTW Who is Mario Vargas Sosas?
@53 British Communist - 'I hope that Cristina will eventually follow the example of Chavez...'
May 19th, 2012 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Taken from the Economist: 'The World should stop indulging Ms CFK. Argentina remains in default on its debt to the Paris club of sovereign creditors, and has not paid the sums that the World Bank's International Centre for the Settlement of International Dispute has determined it owes foreign companies. Last month the US suspended duty free access for some Argentine exports. Yet the country still belongs to the G20 and can borrow from organisations, and its citizens can visit all of Europe without a visa. That amounts to a free pass in foreign policy. If the west revokes these privileges, Argentines might se the true cost of their president's antics.'
LOL
Dear fido dido
May 19th, 2012 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Do not insult me. You know nothing about me or who i have voted for or even what country i am a citizen of. The sad fact is that the peronists have much in common with the democrats. The calafia beach pundit remarks on how similar Obama is to peronsim. Perhaps you are a guilty white person who voted for Obama only because he is black and now have buyers remorse but are afraid to admit it
Mr. Vargas Llosa is 100% right!
May 19th, 2012 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Philippe
#33 SussieUS (#) Comment removed by cowards.
May 19th, 2012 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#38 SussieUS (#) Impersonator trying to offend me?
No one can hurt this argentinian, no matter what action you take.
& 61
May 19th, 2012 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Was your father military colonel ?
@62 MAx (#)
May 19th, 2012 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For what are you getting so personal? ...
My country made me strong and independent.
The issue is the unwelcome criticism the brits have made against my country for the last 100 years
I repeat if the brits don't like the argentine goverment they have the choice to leave my, the sooner the better.
& 63
May 19th, 2012 - 06:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0They are English not British..so we must be regardful for Welsh,Irish,Scots...
Don't care these mammons...their subconscious are full of South American means to acquire them not care of these frigid islands.
@43 RealityCheck (#)
May 19th, 2012 - 07:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You dont' scare me with your stupid comments or with any threats you have made against me.
Don't you know here in the US I have the rights to say anything I want to say? Is called Freedom of Speech: I repeat, I don't like the bloody rubbish engish people residing in my Argentina.
Fuera de mi pais ingleses odiosos!....
What threats you stupid woman! When you lauch into a tirade of foul abuse about your president the way you did, people in the US are going to start to take notice of you, they get paid to do it. Maybe you did not know that since 9/11 US Intelligence services monitor all communications, including the net. Freedom of speech comes with responsibilty to use it properly, not abuse it. You at the very least, could be prosecuted for deformation and libel, if you published that in the states. Not so sure where you stand legally publishing it on here. You my dear have the foulest of attitudes which is only exceeded by your filthy mouth. Keep using the soap. I repeat, I am glad the editor removed post 33. Maybe some here did not read it, clean it up by 98% and the editors might, just might, post it again. What was it? “No decent man marries a Black.” Something about, OB's “Bitch mother burning in hell.”I think I'm quoting it mildly.
May 19th, 2012 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe you were drunk or on drugs when you posted it, still does not excuse it. You lady need help!
While Vargas Llosa described CFK as a “flagrant example” of that “self-destructive vocation” in which Argentina has been trapped for years.“, on a Buenos Aires tv show in April 2011, he did give some credit to CFK for opposing an Argentine radical left-wing intellectuals' initiative to bar him from being key-note presenter at a Buenos Aires book-fair.
May 19th, 2012 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For Vargas Llosa, the irony is that a couple of his books were actually banned by the Argentine military junta dictatorship many years ago, but the difference was that MVL's earlier works reflected a leftist tinge, while for the last 20 years, he has been mutating into a ”notorious”, flagrant, unrepentant-and-proud conservative.
For MVL, personal, literary, political and economic freedom is essential for a developed society - and he sees Argentina slipping back. Way back, although not yet quite as far back as Venezuela's Chávez.
MVL interview on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIF0LS38dFo
For those wishing CFK would behave even more like a Chavenista, I say “be careful what you wish for”. Look at the poverty, murder rate, saturation of drug traffickers, lack of affordable housing, rate of unemployment, percentage of citizens in poverty, lack of consistent utility power, corruption, and robbery rate.
May 19th, 2012 - 11:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Before you suggest Chavism, go live in Venezuela for a few years. Try to find a job, try to find housing, try to live without fear of thieves and murder.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 19th, 2012 - 11:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0funny, British Kirchnerist, that you ommit that Vargas Llosa used to be a communist and Cuban Castro supporter in his earlier years, till he recognized and learned that all this populism leads to nowhere else than stagnation.
May 20th, 2012 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0In that aspect, Noble Prize winner Llosa is a real hero... there are not many of his kind, strong enough to admit own errors and initate corrective measures.
69 SussіeUS (#)
May 20th, 2012 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0May 19th, 2012 - 11:51 pm
No Sussie, you're not a “bad as” you are just pretty stupid.
#67 “he did give some credit to CFK for opposing an Argentine radical left-wing intellectuals' initiative to bar him from being key-note presenter at a Buenos Aires book-fair”
May 20th, 2012 - 12:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0Good for her, no need to ban him when his ideas can be combatted (and defended) in a fair debate as we are having here, and may the strongest ideas win =) Just goes to show though that the “idea” of Cristina as la dictadora is complete fiction =)
@72. Can you tell me how many ethnic minorities serve in The Chamber of Deputies or the Supreme Court?
May 20th, 2012 - 07:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thats very normal to say about -- destruction -- for a man who took --dynamite-(nobel) reward.
May 20th, 2012 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Tobias #6
May 20th, 2012 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0good posting - well argued.
... and not just because it accords with my long-held opinion.
I greatly appreciate South American literature, and Mario Vargas Llosa is an author to whom I afford great respect .... unlike some of the South American Nobel 'greats'.
Some unsuccessful attempts by trolls to divert the comment stream away and onto Obama.
One of the more interesting Mercopress postings/Comments.
@17 The system works by buying the votes of the poor. When poverty began to fall in Argentina, the Kirchners “imported” around 4 million poor immigrants from Bolivia, Paraguay and Peru between 2007 and 2011 and gave them Argentine nationality. These were people without jobs, without education and without homes.
May 20th, 2012 - 11:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0#76 Argentina has always been a country of immigrants, whats wrong with some of those immigrants also being Native American Indians? =)
May 20th, 2012 - 12:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.argbrit.org/structure/Britishemigrants_intro.html
May 20th, 2012 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0¡Vargos Llosa ha acertado! ¡Bravo!
May 20th, 2012 - 02:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@77. Re my above post - how many native American or indigenous Argentinians are in the Chamber of Deputies or Supreme Court?
May 20th, 2012 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 076: Wiki of Plan Patria Grande program says about 423,000 have entered Argentina, 2006-2010.
May 20th, 2012 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 077: Immigration to Argentina is relevant given that demography and immigration to the Falklands has been criticized by Argentina sources in an attempt to de-legitimize the Falklands community. In a way, such a thread of attack builds on the epithet that Falklanders are nothing more than usurping piratas.
Bruzzone & García's recent article focusing on Falklands demography, emphasizes that having gained British citizenship since 1982, Falklands youth left the Islands in droves. B&G say that Britain was concerned and since 1992, began encouraging immigration to the Falklands from various sources: Britain, other colonial possessions, and even from Latin America (Chile, Perú). B&G seek to discredit basis of Falklands community, arguing that no authentic community exists because high proportion of those who live there now, and their leaders, were not born there.
In fact, immigration to make up for low birth rates and outbound emigration has been national policy of many countries, however, for the Falklands , issue isn't about boosting the population to persuade Argentines or anyone else of the community's legitimacy, but rather to provide a gap-filling function in a changing and growing economy. New economic opportunities for fishing and oil bring new skill demands and thus an impetus for immigration.
Reference:
“Malvinas: aportes políticos y estratégicos para su consideración”:
http://www.alainet.org/active/54962&lang=es
Plan Patria Grande: http://www.alainet.org/active/54962&lang=es
81 JohnN. The numbers are much larger.
May 20th, 2012 - 03:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Back to the article: 'Argentina's self destruction addiction'
May 20th, 2012 - 04:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0This is all due to inept political leadership for many years and the ability of those same politicians to turn the minds of their gullible population away from the realities that poor governance brings with 'Malvinas' themes.
The Argentinian's will only prosper as a nation if they get proper govenance and teach their children a little bit about the history of the Falkland Islands.
@ tobias 6
May 20th, 2012 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Excellent posting, thank you for the analysis. Superb.
6 good good Tobías
May 20th, 2012 - 05:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I am getting tired of the black widow and the way she manages economy, and specially of her necesity to continue in power. if she cant, she is going to change constitution, if she cant, she is going to imposse us máximo or alicia....cant be real
I think I can see cracks forming in the usual RG bloggers arguments.
May 20th, 2012 - 05:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Only a few weeks ago, CFK and her government, where the best thing since sliced bread, innovative in their approach to the economy, standing up to the evil imperialistic UN, WTO etc...
Now they're posting things like how they are tired of CFK and her handling of the economy etc...
Things must be getting desperate when only the loon BK has anything good to say about her, and her usual supporters are leaving in droves, like rats abandoning the sinking ship.
@86
May 20th, 2012 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps Malen should look at voting for people like Tobias, a person who clearly loves his nation, but is fed-up with the constant see-saw the people have to suffer. If Joe was the FI government and Tobias the Argentinian President- would they talk? I bet they would.
Nobel peace we want peace, nobel peace say they want negotiations peace pirates jajajajaja 9 out of 10 cats say they prefer argentina pirates etc etc etc
May 20th, 2012 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like it, Kircher is sending maximo and the kircher youth round to sit on him ooft
I wish I was sat in Santiago getting the opinions of normal blokes like me. They generally seem the most sensible people in the Spanish Colonial nations of South America, along with the Falklanders of course.
May 20th, 2012 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From my interpretation of the news over the past few months in this excellent Merco Press I've been noticing other nations- including their neighbours start to lose patience with Argentina. If just a single nation behaves like this it's a dispute, but when several get annoyed, it's your government, not the other nations.
No “ifs” and no “buts”.
I'm so tired of Cristina too let's get rid of her but then can we invade the Islands with the support of a right wing party like Biondini?
May 20th, 2012 - 07:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@90 - Dany. So much for let's give peace a chance. Invade the Islands, with what, dear Dany, with what? LMAO
May 20th, 2012 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have no understanding of military action. What about Argentina's fighting and projection capability? What about the cost of fighting a war? Equipment, bullets, missiles etc.. cost lots of money, and Argentina hasn't got any money at the moment, and your international credit rating is so low that you would have to dig upwards to bury it.
What about logistical considerations? Bullets, food and medical supplies have to reach the troops somehow, across the South Atlantic with submarines patrolling beneath the waves.
Dany you are a child trying to act like a grown up, and like a child you have very little understanding of how things work in the real world. How many of your country men's lives would you sacrifice on this little venture? You won't be offering to storm the beachhead yourself I take it, no people like you expect others to do the dying for you.
Pathetic Dany, pathetic.
@90
May 20th, 2012 - 07:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You really are a prick mate!
You have no idea how strongly we believe in the Falklanders right to choose for themselves. You live on land you have stolen, they do not.
What a prick!
@90 - we have a secret weapon - Katie Price. Unless you give up your stupid claim to the Falklands, she'll be coming to get the rest of you...
May 20th, 2012 - 07:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2136433/Katie-Price-engaged-Leandro-Penna-Third-time-lucky.html
@93, 91 towards @90
May 20th, 2012 - 08:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's pricks like him that makes older men like me wish I could pick up the old SMG to finally have a crack. You a complete waste of space. Unfinished business, yep- when you see that dick talking, everyone has a long way to go. This is first Argie Fascist on the board that has actually annoyed me.
Cunt.
@LEPRecon
May 20th, 2012 - 08:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don’t understand why you are so concern if you have all solved and there is not way to attack you.
You sound very silly like if I say you are a weak person and if you attack me I will kill you but please think in your expenditures, the price of ticket to reach me, the expensive hotels in BA, your food, logistic, etc.
???????
Don’t worry for that.
@93 - no one deserves that! Cruel heartless beast, you are! ;0)
May 20th, 2012 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@95 Dany
May 20th, 2012 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Come to South London and I have mates who will ensure you expire a few minutes later: In the Thames.
@95 - Dany. Your post just confirms your ignorance of military matters, let alone what it takes to plan and execute the invasion you talk about in your post @90.
May 20th, 2012 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Tell me Dany, would you volunteer to be 1st ashore during your invasion plan?
#90 You may be tired of her but she is as fresh and evergreen as ever, and the people still love her for her strong and courageous advocacy for the poor and human rights, and her PEACEFUL aproach to anti-colonialism; your “right wing party” doesn't stand a chance =)
May 20th, 2012 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@99 Weirdo Kirchnerist. Why won't you answer my questions?
May 20th, 2012 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ LEPRecon
May 20th, 2012 - 09:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure mate no problem if you and Moriety are there but the question is if you are going to be there?
@ Moriety
Where do I have to go in South London to meet you monkey? Brixton, Clapham Junction?
@101 - Dany. You wouldn't have the courage to even join the Army, let alone be involved in an actual war. You are all talk and no trousers.
May 20th, 2012 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What winds me up is most of the Argies here like Tobias and Tobers are pretty reasoned: You can actually learn how they think and appreciate their minds. logic and reasoning without having to support it, but it's interesting.
May 20th, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You then get a complete dick like Danny who wouldn't even know what a rifle was if it was pointed at him. I was a part-time soldier in the Signals during the conflict and often regret I wasn't involved as the Army asked me to transfer directly to the Para's full-time. I didn't and it's my loss. If the internet existed back then rather than us blokes setting MilNet up in Northern Europe, and seeing Dany posting I might have made the leap the Army wanted.
Dany
Such is life.
1690: The British officially claim the Falklands (125 years before you exist)
1764: French Aradians fron CANADA found the FIRST EVER settlement
1765 The British found their first ever settlement (50 years before your nation even existed)
1833: The British Governor Vernet has gone rogue, an illiegal garrison from the United Provinces is on the Island, Vernet includes pissing off the Yanks getting (rightly) so pissed off they send a Warship to smash up Port Egmont, which they do).
None of the 30 Argententians on West Falkland are asked to leave, except for the illegial mititary garrison, and in fact are encouraged to stay, and all do.
WHERE is YOUR claim on the Islanders and their Islands?
@103 Moriety. They know all that stuff - the truth makes no difference to them. Your friend Dany, with the greatest of respect to you, is trolling - and succeeding. Ignore the cretins that post on here - they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
May 20th, 2012 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You get honest blokes like Tobias and idiots like Dany. A quick read soon sorts the men from the boys. One of my uncles was actually involved in this conflict on Warships.
May 20th, 2012 - 10:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dany is an asshole, Tobias is as critical of us as I am of them. I wish he had a sister. You learn from some and consider others as pricks. Dany is a prick, Tobias is educational.
82 rule_britannia: Thanks - I'm now discovering that indeed, the numbers of illegal residents in Argentina is much larger.
May 21st, 2012 - 12:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0In one article, while legal residents are now at 964,439, the number of illegal residents is pegged at 677,506.
“La Argentina no expulsará a inmigrantes ilegales”: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/570068-la-argentina-no-expulsara-a-inmigrantes-ilegales
@LEPRecon
May 21st, 2012 - 12:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Dany. You wouldn't have the courage to even join the Army, let alone be involved in an actual war. You are all talk and no trousers.”
Again talking BS, asking and answering to your self like an alienated person that needs to hear what he wants to hear to don’t lose confidence on him self.
What makes you to be so insecure fear perhaps?
@Moriety
“I was a part-time soldier in the Signals during the conflict and often regret I wasn't involved as the Army asked me to transfer directly to the Para's full-time”
Well we got the perfect partner here of LEPRing talking and threatening from their @ss pretending they are tough guys.
Moriety you are a scam like LEPRing with your experience in the Army I would shut up if I will be you. You only look as a ridicule person.
1- You are an Old man to engage in any military conflict.
2- What the hell is a part-time soldier what were you doing serving coffee?
3- I’m not interest on your fake lesson of History.
4- If you want to see how big is my “D” you will have to tell me where you are in South London first.
And I hope you live close to a tube station because wouldn’t like to spend a lot of time looking for you.
I hope you will be not so coward, to miss a good fight opportunity. Are you?
@Lord Loverocket
Mosque and postcode please I have not record of you, thanks.
#107 try HR6 as that may cure your adolescent stupidity.
May 21st, 2012 - 02:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0You cannot be an adult as your lack of reason gives tou away
Malvinero1, there is none so blind as they that will not see. Argentina is one sick country. Argentina the worst is yet to come. Millet
May 21st, 2012 - 03:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0106 JohnN: What happens is that the legal residents then bring mum, dad, uncles & aunts, cousins, etc. for free medical care, etc....
May 21st, 2012 - 03:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0This video by AlJazeera shows that some local people were already complaining about this in 2007:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ZggHPSZ1w
The results of this policy can be seen in this video made a year later, also by AlJazeera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ZggHPSZ1w
@107 - Dany. You really need to grow up. Every time you post you show your complete ignorance. You're very brave when you're behind a computer screen.
May 21st, 2012 - 06:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0I have been to war, and I have seen the human cost, so engaging in a war should never be undertaken lightly.
Before you come back on here and start posturing and trying to 'big yourself up' try talking to some of the veterans of the Falklands conflict. Ask them how they felt? Ask them about the freezing conditions, how it felt when they were being attacked, how it felt and still feels to lose friends and comrades. Ask them how it felt upon return, to be spat at by their own people, because they didn't fight to the death.
Then Dany, learn from what they have said, and grow up. You'll be a better person for it.
@LEPRecon
May 21st, 2012 - 08:39 am - Link - Report abuse 01-“You're very brave when you're behind a computer screen”
“You wouldn't have the courage to even join the Army, let alone be involved in an actual war. You are all talk and no trousers”
I’m not the guy who is telling others how tough soldier I am otherwise you are. Well my friend I’m not scared of any soldier and you? So stop talking and if you want you are free to invade BA if you are so brave and though what in this world is stopping you?
We are not threatening you, sending Subs, showing missiles, weapons, etc. otherwise you are and playing the macho man and showing guns in this part of the world has deadly consequences.
2- “Before you come back on here and start posturing and trying to 'big yourself up' try talking to some of the veterans of the Falklands conflict”
Seem you need to do that not me, people in armed conflicts get killed mutilated, there are civilian casualties (or collateral damage as you like to say), have you talk with your fellow Afghanistan veteran yet?
Did that stop to go to Libya?
Nope so why do you think that a war from 30 years ago will produce any humanitarian conciseness in others?
It’s just old history we are in 2012 and seems you got frozen in the ’80 update your self first before you start again to lecture others.
So, who need to realise of the consequences of your stupid warmongering is you and your stupid govt. sending subs is not a good sign to start with.
Anyone can tell you that.
@108 - he's Argentinian - adolescent lack of reason comes as standard..
May 21st, 2012 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0#100 Surely you'd support me in an argument with Danny where I'm the one opposing an invasion of the Falklands?! But I will try to answer your question, sorry I forgot before, the one about the money right? Firstly I must say I don't know much about the minute details of it and don't really care, as its her policies for the masses I'm interested in and her private life is just that, unless she's involved in serious crimes and of that there is no indication whatsoever. It may seem like hypocrisy for a socialist to get rich (although as Peronists the Ks did not self define as socialists anyway) but its probably not a bad idea to have a personal safety net if your a leftist politician operating in a party with big right wing sectors in a country that is not only capitalist but, according to the likes of you, riddled with corruption. And to put it in context, even the Fox News style piece on the Kirchners that was posted here recently admitted that Nestor was poor for an Argentine governor, and by far the richest most corrupt president was the privatiser Menem. By promoting a climate of putting people before profit Cristina is now surely undermining the basis of corruption? =)
May 21st, 2012 - 10:04 am - Link - Report abuse 090 Dany Berger “then can we invade the Islands with the support of a right wing party like Biondini?
May 21st, 2012 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0112 Dany Burger ”“I’m not the guy who is telling others how tough soldier I am ” ...“We are not threatening you, ”
What a dickhead.
I'm rather sad to have missed the infamous “post 33”
May 21st, 2012 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0The tragedy for Argentina is that it has no credible alternative to Peronism. Even the few credible “opponents” to the Government are Peronists. We anticipate that we will have to put up with this form of populist see-sawing mess for at least a couple of decades yet whilst Chile and Brazil lead the way in developing their democracies and economies.
May 21st, 2012 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0There are obviously some good Argentine thinkers and business men who have the ability to resurrect the country, but are either intimidated by the lack of freedom of speech, have already been dragged into the cronyism required to get on, or have already left the country (how many posters on here do not live at home).
Its a pity that this forum polarises opinion into pr0- and anti- Argentine, or pro- and anti- British, because better analysis leads to better policies, and better debate leads to more solid analysis. It its own small way this site has the opportunity to help political progress and understanding, but unfortunately (this topic aside) the quality of debate is falling to rabid abuse.
Even as a Falkland Islander I have no wish to see Argentina in this state, and have even less wish for it to be led by populist Presidents with little respect for the law. Peronism created the Falklands dispute, and will perpetutae it for so long as it creates populist sentiment. The extent to which it is used in international politics is disturbing, and all too closely mirrors Hitlers big lie.
Its hard to see the way out, but hopefully one day Argentina will emerge from its mire.
A Peronist Governor runs Buenos Aires province since 1989, a province which is certainly the engine of the Argentine economic output.
May 21st, 2012 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Buenos Aires could not be worse, famine, corruption, pollution, extreme poverty, booming informal economy, death, violence, and a fertile ground for an increasing drug dealing are the direct consequence of 23 years of Peronists governments.
117 GALlamosa (#)
May 21st, 2012 - 01:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0May 21st, 2012 - 11:31 am
Great post. Thank you.
As you say the Falklands “problem” was invented by Perón and is kept alive by peronism and, unfortunately by the brainwashing of our youth,whether peronist or no.
As an anti peronist, and a one time radical, I don't see any existing politician who could possibly beat the nationalists in an election at te moment.
One day Argentina will return to the real world and leave this nationalist nightmare behind. Maybe, perhaps, with a bit of luck, when Kretina and her troupe of performing clowns (I was going to say“monkeys” but felt sorry for the race) come a cropper in the near future, the people of this great country will realize that their lives can be better with a bit of thought before they vote.
This was the article I was trying to access yesterday - but Diario Perfil's website was down. However, someone has copied it in Scribd. 10% of Argentina's population makes at least three million seven hundred thousand people: http://es.scribd.com/doc/19360635/El-10-de-los-habitantes-de-Argentina-nacio-en-Bolivia-Paraguay-o-Peru
May 21st, 2012 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Comment removed by the editor.
May 21st, 2012 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@Moriety, Leprecon
May 21st, 2012 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DanyBerger, much hatred has.
Blinded by hate and fear he is.
Stoop to troll level do not.
On weak mind Jedi mind tricks work....
...sorry for trolling and dragging the level of the forum down.
May 21st, 2012 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...try harder to be a grownup I will...
... talk less bollocks I will...
I have a twin Dany above ha ha ha
May 22nd, 2012 - 04:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0Can you make another DanyBerger?
Twin, you have not.
May 22nd, 2012 - 01:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Only 1 DanyBerger.
Like i said last week for another article. Just one more ignorant who recurs to hitler, to try to compare his policies with those that are implemented by the argentine government. It's really amazing how such an important writer like him has such an ignorant knowledge about argentina, and makes a very mediocre analysis, which would be tipical of ignorant people. Anyway i would like to ask vargas a couple a couple of questions, when was arg. a first world country?, if he criticise peronism, why didn't he make the same critics during menem's presidence?, the guy who sold the country, and gave the powerful corporations, the manegement of the argentine economy. Perhaps that's what vargas llosa misses, in fact i saw a video of the decade of 90's, where he admired menem's policies. On the other hand, he only criticises the nationalization of ypf, and doesn't say a word about the lack of inverstments by respsol.
May 22nd, 2012 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But the worst of this situation, is that maybe planty if people believe him, and buy so easily the mediocre analisys that he made about arg., especially some of the ignorants who post comments here everyday, who hate arg. histerically, and who make the same stupid comparisons than this guy.
I dont deny that we still have planty problems, which will take many years to be soved, but only an ignorant who just hates c. f. k' s policies can say that arg. is getting worse everyday. Vargas llosa shows with his comments, that although he's considered like an intellectual, what he doesn't have, is intellectual honesty, thats' why he made such an ignorant analysis.
Anyway his analysis dont sorprise anyone, he just makes the tipical partial analysis that the mediatic corporations do for the popular governments from latin america.
# 126 “Lack of inverstments by Respsol”. You are forgetting two things, Axel: (1) In 2008 Nestor Kirchner ordered Repsol to sell 25% of YPF to his friend Eskenazi, who bought the shares with a loan. Kirchner then ordered Repsol-YPF to pay out dividends so his friend Eskenazi could pay back the loan. To do this, Repsol-YPF got itself into debt. (2) For years the price Repsol-YPF could charge for oil and natural gas have been capped by the Argentine government. According to the WTO, the average price per barril of crude was US$ 94,9 last year. However, according to Argentina's Ministry of Energy, producers received only US$ s 63.2 on the domestic market and U$S42 if they wanted to export .
May 22nd, 2012 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RULE_BRITANNIA.
May 23rd, 2012 - 03:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are mixing issues and forgetting another important question.
I know that nestor kirchner took eskenazy to ypf, and i know also about the loan that the eskenazy familiy used to get the shares from ypf. But what you omit, is that repsol didn't do any inverstments in the company, respecting explorations, and thats' why we lost reserves of oil and gas.
@95 Christ (#)
May 24th, 2012 - 05:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You see, you are not a brave person even with you eggplant size of testicles...HaHaHa
Honestly, following the AR economy this spring has been like witnessing a plane slowly lose power in each of its engines, try to save itself with desperate measures....but ultimately from the ground you know the dreadful truth - the crash is coming. Despite your best wishes for the pilot and passengers, there is no way to save the plane.
May 25th, 2012 - 06:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0This is what I see in Argentina. I want CFK to make good fiscal decisions, but she is piloting the plane into the ground. I just feel badly for the passengers (Argentines) who deserve to be saved.
@130 Jayne Birkin (#)
May 25th, 2012 - 06:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0My 2 countries, the US and Argentina are having difficult economic times. The US national deficit is 15 trillon dollars owed to foreign countries.
The US like Argentina cannot control the inflation affecting the middle class.
Check the internet about the 24 millons US citizens unemployed, 46 millons receiving food stamps and 26 millons living below poverty levels.
The argentine female leader“piloting skills” are better than Prince William fifth grade mentality to learn to fly only a helipcoter.....
Appologies to all, I made myself look like a total prick.
May 25th, 2012 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was angry about the posting Dany made and I appologise to all.
At my age I should know better......If alcohol wasn't a factor at the time, and I'm sure both could argue reasonably, together, over a cup of tea/coffee.
Toby (sorry all who contribute so much here and I learn from) I am ashamed.
Comment removed by the editor.
May 25th, 2012 - 09:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@133
May 25th, 2012 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It does not bothers me a bit who plays such a joke.
I expect the same jokes for the next 4 years this criticism against my 2 countries, the US and Argentina. Next?
Hey you guys and girls:
May 25th, 2012 - 09:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I went to the pub earlier, spoke to a group of 4, and two had economics degrees, I asked them to explain the madness of the current economic world. One was patently a free-marteteer, the other was protectinist not least as he had a Greek girlfriend and instantly unstood the Greek situation.
For me I simply observed barmaids earning 3 Euros per hour, who said that the previous season they were were paid 3.50 Euros' per hour.
A Greek Mythos beer is 2.50 Euro's, German beer 4 Euro's. That means that for an entire hours labour she could afford a single beer per hour, if Greek.
Low wage ecoconomies put nothing back into the economy as nobody can actually afford a “night out” any more. if it takes you more than an hour of work to pay for a single beer you sold you just know that “Free Market Capitalism” has failed the nation.
In some ways I support Argentina with the current stance her government has, but dislike the Thatcher type women they have.
128 axel arg (#) Repsol says it has invested over 20 billion dollars since taking over YPF in 1999. http://en.mercopress.com/2012/04/25/repsol-says-it-has-invested-over-20-billion-dollars-since-taking-over-ypf-in-1999
May 25th, 2012 - 10:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep, but this woman was honest enough to admit what she did.
May 25th, 2012 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the Uk we have EDF. Do you know what “EDF” stands for? It is “Energie de France”. Every taxpayer in France has lower taxes because 1 in 4 Britons have them as a supplier of energy.
Who benefits? The tax payers of France do, as the state owns EDF and all profits go back to the people.
#131 SussieUS - Yes the US has national debt. But the US Dollar has been around for 225 years and has never failed. Ever. The US has always - and continues - to pay on its federal government bonds. 9.8 trillion of Federal Debt is held in bonds owned by Americans. 4.5 trillion is held in bonds owned by pension funds, foreign banks and foreign governments. Right now there is a recession, but the US is still a strong country, and is ahead of Europe in the recovery.
May 26th, 2012 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse 0The US can still get international credit through bond issues (unlike Argentina). The first amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech to the press, and independent economists to report statistics accurately. The Bureau of Labor Statistics is not politicized, and its CPI report is trustworthy. US Inflation has been running between 1.5% and 4.0% over the past 10 years. Argentina's has run between 20-30% each year. The poverty in the US is relative - those in poverty still have government subsidized housing, televisions, often cable TV, cell phones, utilities, food stamps, health care, running water, and unemployment benefits. I've seen the poverty of Argentina, there is nothing remotely like it in the US. Social Security payments have saved millions of Americans from impoverishment. What is the monthly stipend in Argentina? I think it runs about the equivalent to $350 USD. Most Americans get about $1200 / month.
Americans can withdraw as many US Dollars out of their banks as they please. No dogs sniff their baggage for US Dollars as they depart the country. They don't have to list every single item in their bags when they depart the country.
There are millions of Argentine immigrants living in the US (such as yourself), and appx 25,000 Americans living in Argentina. All of them keep most of their money in the US Banking system. For all of its problems, the US economic plane is not crashing any time soon.
The US andthe UK seen to have got lucky. Watching two people arguing over the various economic systems left me beleildered.
May 26th, 2012 - 02:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0One said “you dont want to understand it, as if you do, you are screwed.”
I know that the current capitalist model is pissing off many, but as one of them said at the pub, it was fixed in 1920's and no one has looked at the models since: then they started to argue.
For us lot we are left bilweildered as Europe implodes, never mind Argentina being picked on. Can any economists on the board explain why printing money (real paper currency represents (apparently) only 2% of an economy that one of them at the pub explained?)
The worst it gets in Argentina the more sympathy I have with them. We just seem to live in an economy that is now surreal, not real.
I'm sure I'm not the only confused person.
@Jayne Birkin
May 26th, 2012 - 11:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0“US Inflation has been running between 1.5% and 4.0% over the past 10 years. Argentina's has run between 20-30% each year.”
How USA could have lets say 4% inflation while prices on food have rose in average 50%?
Plus the rose on Oil, plastic manufacture had increased prices 50%, transportation had rose price, postal service, etc.
“The poverty in the US is relative - those in poverty still have government subsidized housing, televisions, often cable TV, cell phones, utilities, food stamps, health care, running water, and unemployment benefits.
I've seen the poverty of Argentina, there is nothing remotely like it in the US”
Poverty in US really where?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
Poverty in rural areas USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
“There are millions of Argentine immigrants living in the US”
They are not, just hardly no more than 195k ARG may be, and most of then don’t live in USA any more.
ARG have ever run a big wave of immigration to anywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlEY1DAidw
Reported immigration since the last crisis 2001 only counts for 300k and majority of them went to Europe.
On the contrary since 2008 the trend is a migration from USA to Argentina more than 300k are living in ARG now (reported to be legally) plus the illegal ones that cross border to Uruguay to renew their expired tourist visas.
And for your record in Mexico there are 1.5m Americans living there.
So “your USA” has turned into expat making nation.
#135 Good post, and I think your right about the ethical social democratic impulses behind Cristina's policies. But when you talk about “Thatcher type women” do you just mean Cristina or do you indeed mean the tradition of strong women Argentina is famous for? Anyway there is nothing wrong with being a strong woman and it is a stronger braver thing to stand up to the powerful than to take their side against the weak; on that basis I call Cristina the real Iron Lady =)
May 26th, 2012 - 01:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#139 Capitalism wasn't fixed in the 20s, it took world war 2 to restore growth through the wartime mobilisation of resources and the vast wartime destruction which ironically gave the surviving businesses a great environment for growth after the war. At that time, and until the early 90s, there was a fully formed alternative in the shape of the Soviet Union; unfortunately its dictatorship and rigid central planning made it in the last analysis a failed alternative. A new and better alternative, more democratic and participatory, is now being built in the Chavista countries of Latin America, and I wish it every success. It may reach Greece soon =)
@BK
May 26th, 2012 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You really are misguided on the Chavista issue. It might be amusing for you to sit in the UK and joyfully espouse the virtues of what you think Chavez is achieving. But in reality he is destroying his country and with his petrodollars he is corrupting other countries. I don’t doubt that Chavez really wanted to improve Venezuela, but the system he implemented has totally failed.
You stated above that the soviet system had failed. Did you support it before it failed?
The same will happen with the Chavista way. The countries in the Chavesphere (Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia) are making rapid progress backwards.
It is evident for all to see. Poverty down here is horrible (not like poverty in Europe as mentioned in a previous post), people live like dogs with no dignity and no way out. Chavez is pushing millions in to that predicament, while the non Chavez countries are pulling millions of people out of it.
Chavez and CFK maybe colourful characters that you can enjoy for their flamboyancy – but you don’t live with the consequences of their failures. Neither do the well educated South American on this site. But we see it and you don’t and it is actually quite offensive. I understand that you don’t intend it to be.
You are obviously knowledgeable about history and politics, but there is only so much you can get from books. For your own enlightenment, I beg you please come to SAmerica and see for yourself.
@141
May 26th, 2012 - 03:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Cheers, but yes, I meant Cristina. :0
Regarding what the blokes in the pub were saying, they said that all the economic models got fixed/invented by then, but then instantly started arguing over State Capitalism, Protectionism and Free Market Capatalism :)
Any economic system that challenges the dominance of multi-national companies holding nations hostage will be welcomed by me, I'm really getting as fed up with them as I am the Banks. Communism failed because humans are greedy and it was too rigid. We need an alternative to the corrupt current form of “Free” Market Capitalism. I need to research the South American model you mention! If it goes to Greece that's great, as they got really shafted by both the Euro and her politicians.
RULE_BRITANNIA.
May 26th, 2012 - 05:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I dont know what kind of inverstments repsol did, but beyond the omissions of the company, it can't deny that ypf has been lossing reserves of oil and gas since 1999, like it or not, that's a fact, anyway i respect if you like being respsol's lawyer, but unless be ample if you analyse this question. On the other hand, argentina didn' say that it won't pay repsol after having nationalized the company, actually it will pay what the justice determines, not what repsol wants.
@138 Jayne Ignorant Bikini
May 26th, 2012 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The internet has all the financial history about the US including the great depresion years from 1924 to 1936. Yes, the US has defaulted to pay their financial obligation. Check the Internet.
Yes, the US was in the same situation like Argentina in not paying their retirees social security benefits. Check the Internet. On July 31, 2011
Obama desperation against the US Congress delaying his 2012 budget forced him to go public announcing that the US Congress was delaying his 2012 budget approval and becuase of such delay the social security checks and military personnel could not receive their pay checl on August 3, 2011. The US Congress approved more foreing loans for Obama last presidency year. The US 2012 budget still is under review. Social services are all reduced or eliminated, Medicare benefits, the Social Security age retirement could reach at 7O years and the cost of living expenses is eleminated because the US is simple broke. It takes my attention that no one of you have CNN which provides daily information about the critical financial situation. Check the famous gold reserves is only 200,000,000 billons. The internet also has a demostration of how big a 15,000,000,000,000 is. US veterans are found on the street begging for food. The 24 ooo ooo unemployed cannot survive with a $1,000, monthly benefits. A doctor visit is $266.00, a health care insurance for a 4o yrs. old person $400.- per month, food prices are astronomically high. The bubble might burst at any time.
Yes Susie,
May 26th, 2012 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are a lot of unhappy people who are fed up with being shafted by modern Capalism, It isnt working and the 4oom of us know it isn't.
A fresh outlook and a new start is what most want: Ask amy British person about it.
144 axel arg (#) If you don't know what kind of investments Repsol made, why did you pretend before that you DID know? Of course the Argentine Government will pay what the Court determines - because the Court will determine exactly what the Argentine Government tells it to - or do you really believe that judges in Argentina are allowed to make impartial decisions? Just look at the current Boudou case- Judge Daniel Rafecas removed from the case, the public prosecutor, Carlos Rívolo, removed from the case and Argentine prosecutor general Esteban Righi forced to resign.
May 26th, 2012 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@141
May 27th, 2012 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0I just read what the Wiki has to say about the idealogy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavismo
It says very little and needs expanding.
I liked the attitude of Chavez untill he ranted about the Falklands: calling them colonial without understanding how ironic he was being.
Can anyone explain in greater detail than the Wiki does of this economic model please. It looks essentially socialist, which I am, allbeit starting to go left of socialism as I'm just getting so sick of modern Capitalism.
One day companies might even stop avoiding paying taxes and actually pay them, just like their workers have to.
RULE_BRITANIA.
May 27th, 2012 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You make no more than the tipicall partial and ignorant analysis that planty of you do when you talk about my country. The question about the judges is very complicated and ample, i dont deny that some of them are a disaster, in fact, we still have judges who were related to the last dictatorship, but at the same time, there are exellent judges who are very prestigious, like the members of our suprem court. Regarding ypf, i didn't express my self correctly, i wanted to say that i didn't know about what inverstments you were talking about, i dont deny that maybe the company made some iverstments, but at the same time, nobdy can deny that we lost reserves of oil and gas, due to the lack of exploration by respsol, beside, what the enterprize did the most, was to send huge remitances to spain. Regarding what arg. must pay repsol, i just want to ask you a question, why should we pay what repsol wants, without making an investigation before about the state that if left the company?, it's a good question for somebody like you who claims for impartiality.
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