MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
“We need political will on both sides” to reach agreement on Falklands/Malvinas says Argüello
By Rebecca Kendall (*) - It has been 30 years since the war over the Falkland/Malvinas Islands ended, but the question of sovereignty in the Islands, located 248 miles off the coast of Argentina, is still very much fresh in the minds of those closest to the issue, including Argentina’s Ambassador to the United States Jorge Argüello. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rules“Argentina “has never ceased to insist upon restitution by the U.K.” after the U.K. took control of the Islands in 1833, ‘expelling the inhabitants’ ”
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Never ceased, that is except for the 90 years between the convention of settlement in 1850 and the resurrection of their illegal claim in 1940 ........ and the inhabitants seem to have refused to be expelled in 1833, as all but 4 of them chose to stay in the islands, and the other 4 chose to leave despite being invited to stay.
The agreement has been reached already, the Falklands are British.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0@1 quite right. Argentina miente
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0An audience of 40! Sounds like a really well attended event ;-)
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 06:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0These Argentine politicos live in a parallel universe.Just because they either believe or give the impression that they believe their own distorted history and beliefs then they appear surprised that the British /Falklanders don't take them seriously.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 06:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder why the British aren't taking chances with Argentina's
trustworthiness and have re-inforced the defences since 1982; maybe it could be something to do with the war.
Being a trusting friend of Argentina did not prevent Repsol and Spain from falling victim to Argentina's genetic inability to keep to agreements.
”Unfortunately there is no higher authority we can turn to when one of the permanent members of the Security Council refuses to comply with its legal obligations.”
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Questions a student of international relations might have asked HE the Ambassador:
What, then, is the International Court of Justice?
Which legal obligations is the UK Government failing to comply with?
These people have got memories like goldfish; once around the bowl and they forget everything they have ever been told.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0How hard can it be to remember 2 letters? N O - simple. Now stop swimming and repeat after me... N O N O....NONONO...
He is quite correct. We need political will on both sides. The political will in the UK to say the islanders have the right to self determination and the political will in Argentina to accept it and stop lying.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0QED
A guy says -- ...We need political will on both sides......to reach agreement...........................................
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0NO
First..........
You do need to extract some fake identities stuck to the positions in the Argentina State.
I have already decided what I want, let's negotiate, even though my position won't change. So the point of negotiating is...?
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sr Argüello,
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0Which part of “we own the Falklands & Argentina does not” don't you understand?
10
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0Time to operation not negotiation.
wait and see..........
Oooh I'm scared now Not.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whats the diffrence between toast and argentinians?
You can make soldiers out of toast.
Misty I know where an old argentine rifle is only dropped once would you like it back :)
Its been nearly 200 hundred years of british occupation the people who live their are happy give it up.
Your latest claim started in 1940 when you though the uk was going to lose against nazi germany that didnt happen.
grow up and sort your own country out the falklands are 250 miles away nothing to do with you give it up.
13
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0I comprehend the British holding of these islands,
BUT,I cant comprehend why the British tolerate all these Argentine impurity.
If we wanted a strategic foothold in South Atlantic, we would have not stopped at taking back the Falkland's from you murdering thieving Argentine scum Argüello in 82, we would have gone on to take over and bring some sort of economic stability to Argentina. By now all you, whinging scum would have been speaking English quite fluently with inflation under control and you would not have even heard of Christina who thieves of you as she would be just a cleaner in some office block or a cleaner in a woman's toilet. It’s just a pity that we did not do that as your country could have been something in today’s modern World instead of being the laughing stock of South America. Any time you want to learn how to become a world power with a stable economic economy even when the rest of the world is in flames just ask for guidance from UK experts and we will tell you how to do it. Failing that just ask your affluent neighbours 250 miles away how it’s done they just might let you in on the secret, then again they might just tell you to piss of and go lie in the shit you have made.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 10:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0TWIMC
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 11:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0MercoPress says
“The Islands, located 248 miles off the coast of Argentina”
I say:
Sorry fellas, you are getting closer but still missing the truth by~15%.
Actual distance is 212 Miles............
Or 186 Nautical Miles as it should be properly meassured on water.
If this guy can't even get the history right he's on a loser.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0@6 Correct, he can't be very smart if he hasn't heard of the ICJ, which would involve looking at historical fact and supporting documents rather than the Argentine tunnel vision version of history.
The thing is Argentina should work on paper and shouldnt be in the mess it is.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0pluses Big plenty of space rich in natural resources educated workforce even innovative. They managed to build a jet fighter in the 50s first designed and flown in South America etc.
minuses Batshit goverments and an elite who have no conficdence in the country hence lots of cash kept in dollars etc.
not really an attractive option for a solvent set of islands
@18 Correct, but the Pulqui fighters were designed by Kurt Tank so they had a bit of help-however progess has stalled somewhat.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 016. Since El Think only posts when the Peso is up I will let you know it's $P5.95/U$. ( but 8/1 in the futures mkt)
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The gov't is running around saying there won't be a devaluation which means one is imminent.
CFk is planning a massive crack down of the “illegal” money exchange houses on Monday. Do they really think a Police State is the way to go? I guess it is ingrained into their Society.
1000s of people were protesting AGAIN LAST NIGHT. It even made it into the USA national news!
Falling fast where it ends up is anyone's guess...
What this idiot thinks I that the UK should have the political will to hand over the Falklands & any other political will is saber rattling. The political will should be for the UK Govt to move the Nuclear deterrent from Faslane in Scotland where they aren't wanted to the South Atlantic where they would be welcome & actually serve their purpose as a deterrent to unwanted guests. They don't actually have to be patrolling there but Argentina would never actually know anyway & the UK govt wouldn't have to deal with Alex Salmond & his anti forces stance.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Apart from peddling the usual lies about civilians being expelled in 1833, Argüello seems to have forgotten that in 1833, the southern 70% of current Argentina had not yet been invaded and stolen from the native americans, and the nearest Argentine land to the Falklands was well over 1000 miles away.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0RG lies again, who said ' if you say something enough times people will beleive it'
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 01:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Made up history, the educated world can in seconds check the facts and see its all bluster. UK should make a statement with the correct history, although that would be fanning the flames and give RG's some publicity, something of which they crave. Ignore the ranting RG fools i say.
Never ceased, that is except for the 90 years between the convention of settlement in 1850 and the resurrection of their illegal claim in 1940
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#1 another LIE!
1884: Invitation from Argentina to uk to settle in a court of law the MAlvinas issue... and at least 5 times after..LIAR!
Ambassador Argüello, along with Argentine consul and deputy consul in Los Angeles, Jorge Lapsenson and Cristina Vallina, visited this week the University of California Los Angeles and told a pack of lies. Yet another example of educated Argentinians making fools of themselves in public by demonstrating wilful ignorance. Shame on them.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 01:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Were Pascoe and Pepper incorrect to state that Britain only expelled the Argentine government types in 1833, not settlers (“It is important to note that the civilian residents of the islands were not expelled.”, page 18)
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 01:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Wiki on Jorge Argüello suggests he's fed his career as a professional, academic and political “Malvinista”. He was president of the Parliamentary Observatory of the “Malvinas Question”[sic] and his Observatorio starts from the premise that self-determination doesn't apply to the Falklands. Leaving out the Islanders is essential to Argüello and to the whole construct of the Observatorio's premise - and obviously to the whole CFK thrust as well.
Essentially his perspective amounts to seeing Falkland Islanders as nothing more than interloper tourists who can just pack up their things and return to Britain - or accept the “gift” of Argentine citizenship and being subjects of CFK.
Now, as Argentine ambassador to US, not hard to see how CFK is inserting Falklands into Argentine relations with US.
References:
Bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Arg%C3%BCello
Observatorio webpage (“self-determination does not apply...”):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Arg%C3%BCello
UN media release (incorrectly saying just Malvinas):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Arg%C3%BCello
Pascoe and Pepper, Getting it right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Arg%C3%BCello
“we need political will on both sides” to reach agreement.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 02:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Indeed snr Arguello.
So, here is the political will “we need” from Argentina:
1) stop lying about 1833. There was no displaced civilian population. Argentina never had sovereignty. Stop teaching it to your children in schools. An open letter to the UN apologising for the lies and smears would show “political will”.
2) stop lying about Argentina territorial integrity. The islands are over 200 miles from your coast. The UN law of the sea puts them outside your territorial waters.
3) take responsibility for 1982. Stop trying to blame “the military junta”. Political will should mean total recompense for mine clearance on the island, and full financial recompense to the UK government and veterans for the cost of the war.
4) stop misquoting UN resolutions. Nowhere in any resolution does it say that there is no right to self determination, in fact it says the islanders interests should Always be taken into account.
5) an unequivocal removal from the Argentine constitution of their rights to the Falklands (Malvinas), south Georgia and the the South Sandwich Islands.
Is there the political will in Argentina to do that?
Then the UK will show the political will to gradually reduce the forces from the islands and they can be left in peace to determine their own future.
Do you have the political will Snr Arguello? Thought not.
Argie Arguello seems to have forgotten to mention a few minor points. Like the fact that Britain first landed on the Islands in 1690. That Spain claimed that the Treaty of Utrecht gave it sovereignty over the Islands, a claim that was rejected by Britain. That the Islands were formally claimed by Britain in 1765. That Spain only obtained possession of Port Louis by paying the French for the settlement. That Spain forced Britain to abandon Port Egmont by sending 5 warships and 1,400 troops. That Britain then threatened war and Spain returned all goods and chattels seized, made restitution and was forced to accept the British return. That Britain only left the Islands, together with other overseas territories, in 1776 due to the economic pressures of the American Revolutionary War, but never abandoned sovereignty. That the “argie” claim in 1820 was illegal because Britain already had sovereignty and also that it was undertaken by the pirate David Jewett. That Britain did not recognise “argieland” as a state at that point. That Luis Vernet was illegally appointed as “governor” by the “argies”. That Vernet engaged in piracy and was not recognised as “governor” either by Britain or the United States. That the “argie” population of the Islands was not removed either by the Americans or the British. That “argieland”, at that time, consisted of little more than the present-day province of Buenos Aires. That the Arana-Southern Treaty ended all “disputes”. Why does he not mention any of these things? Or the underhand “argie” invasion in 1982 and the subsequent war by which Britain recovered its territory. Or the right (enshrined in the UN Charter) of the Islanders' right to self-determination. Surely argie Arguello knows of these things. BUT there IS political will. There is Britain's political will to ensure that the Islanders have their rights. And there is “argieland's” political will to steal the Islanders' land, homes and future.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 02:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Relax people. Its just the Argentine political system trolling.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 03:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If they get a result from all this trolling then its a bonus. In the meantime they look busy flying around the world, staying in fancy hotels, having pointless meetings instead of addressing the real issues that affect practically the Argentine population.
The really BIG mistake that Britain made in 1982 was not invading certain parts of the Argentine mainland.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Even their own Carlos Escude, in his far reaching masterpiece on the Malvinas question: 'The Case for Argentina', points out (in response to the 'we could have won' claim) that 'had, for example (Argentina) sunk one of the British aircraft carriers, escalation would have been inevitable, with the remaining one attacking the Argentine mainland and most probably wrecking the Patagonian oil and hydroelectric industry. This would have had a devasting long term effect upon Argentina's economy, and an immediate and equally disasterous effect on political support for the war, as Buenos Aires would have been left without energy. As it was war never got to Argentina, and the country can be considered extremely fortunate for that.'
He also addresses 'The pedagogical doctrines' with 'their unfounded myths, their extreme dogmatism, their lack of intellectual rigour and their sometimes fantastic exaltation of everything Argentine'.
This excellent document runs to 31 pages including ALL the references and peer review comments. I recommend that the Malvanistas read it. But I doubt they will as it would blow their indoctrinated minds.
BUT, if ever they invade again.......
@Think
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 03:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0say:
Sorry fellas, you are getting closer but still missing the truth by~15%.
Actual distance is 212 Miles............
Or 186 Nautical Miles as it should be properly meassured on water
Not as close as Martin Garcia
Martín García Island (Spanish: Isla Martín García) is an Argentine island off the Río de la Plata coast of Uruguay. The Argentine exclave island is within the boundaries of Uruguayan waters;
@Think
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay Chile are all >0.1 mile from Argentina.
@27
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0POST of the year!
A Brit demanding, of all things, reparations (for the war costs and UK veterans).
This surely demonstrate the consummate lack of scruples many Brits have. REPARATIONS??? Really?
If the UK, Spain, France, Holland, Germany, Portugal, even Italy and Belgiun in Africa had to reimburse fully their 4-5 centuries of colonial profits, when we add inflation and interest... well, you would probably be slaves of the developing world for a millenia or so.
Is Europe ready for reparations?
It needs goodwill from both sides - certainly! So when will Argentina start showing good will towards the Falkland Islanders. Throughout the whole ghastly mess there has never been one ounce of good will from Argentina!
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 04:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There should not be any goodwill from Argentina. Racialist neighbors do not deserve it; however, I do recognize that Argentina should drop this threadbared theme entirely and for good.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 35 tobias
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 04:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I disagree. There should be goodwill from Argentina. We don't need anything from Argentina except their goodwill towards us as neighbours and their respect for our cultural differences. Maybe it will be tough for them to give us this but, until they do, we will never find common ground. It is a small price to pay for the harm they have done.
#15 “and you would not have even heard of Christina who thieves of you as she would be just a cleaner in some office block or a cleaner in a woman's toilet”
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 04:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or leading the resistance =)
@36
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There should be eschewment on the part of Argentina. You should be free to further pursue your relations with Chile, Uruguay, and Brazil if you so desire; you won't have our goodwill as you proudly and earnestly declaim to the outside world you don't require or wish anything from us.
Consider personal relationships: think of a crabby, lordly person always bruiting about he needs no one, that he performs better by himself, that he requires nothing from you and will never deign himself to ask anything of you. Imagine that person then soliciting that you afford him a “positive attitude”.
LOL. You would guffaw at the mere suggestion after such continual vaunting of self and nuncupative political pronouncements of sovereign achievement.
@33 Thing is; you owe. Let's add a few things together. Exemplary damages for invasion. Exemplary damages for seeding minefields. Compensation for the Islanders' mental distress. Compensation for damage to Island infrastructure. Reimbursement of costs of minefield clearance. Reimbursement of costs of sending British Task Force. Reimbursement of all British medical costs. Land rental for argie war cemetary. Costs for maintenance of British defence forces for 30+ years to deter further argie aggression. Tell you what. Why don't we give you a one-off price? £500 billion. Whoops, you don't have that much money, do you? But, once you've paid, we could consider other countries. After deducting all the foreign aid we've given them. So you should pay up so we can reimburse all these countries to whom you think we owe money. Mind you, when we went into Africa, we tended to retain the population and teach them about progress and civilisation. Whilst you tended to exterminate the local populations. And that's a matter of documented intention and FACT!
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@35 Amazingly, I agree with you. There should not be any “goodwill” from argieland. Demonstrably, it would be a lie. And you don't lie well. Argieland is inherently untrustworthy. It doesn't abide by agreements, treaties or laws, even its own. Argieland should be expelled from every organisation whose rules it has flouted. Starting with the United Nations.
@38 Let's go with eschewment. Shun the Falklands. BUT do not try to advance your objectives by putting pressure on other countries. Consider personal relationships: have nothing to do with an individual, but don't try to persuade your “friends” to adopt the same attitude. Let them make up their own minds. Stop spreading lies.
@38
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are making light of the invasion, those that died in the invasion and those that continue to take their own lives as a result of the invasion.
It was a big deal and Argentina has blood on its hands. To balance things out I also thing Britain was entirely wrong to invade Iraq.
The Falklands and the UK don't want Argentina's attention. Quite the opposite. Theyre not saying -Please like us! Be our friend! They are just saying 'leave us in peace and until you can show us the respect we deserve we have nothing to discuss'.
@39
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is said that just the slave trade alone (the profits from the actual trade), plus the WORK of the slaves themselves for the 200-300 years of the institution (plus the work of indian indentured servants), plus the value of the products thus produced, plus the resources taken from the Americas, plus the taxes imposed on colonists, plus any interest accrued on unpaide wages, would cost Euroepan nations 240 trillion of today's dollars.
Better get to work.
@40
At what point to you move on? Ever? It is 30 years now... that's 1 1/2 generations removed, officially.
I also believe countries can move on quickly and easily within a generation PROVIDED the country does everything it can to show that it recognizes its error and changes its political culture. This happened in Germany and Japan after the war. It hasn't happened with Argentina. Argentina continues to play the 'Its ours. We are entitled to it' theme and continues to harass the Islanders (so it wasn't just the Junta's fault was it?)
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 36
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 06:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I see two stories greenish building in Stanley
Could you explain them what kind of building ?
@27 Monkeymagic & 28 Conqueror - Spot on and 100% accurate
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is just a pity that someone can't stop this idiot Arguello from telling lies about the history of the Falkland Islands.
If this guy is the best they've got for an Ambassador no wonder Argentina is going down the pan. He should be spending his time drumming up trade not hate.
stop lying about Argentina territorial integrity. The islands are over 200 miles from your coast. The UN law of the sea puts them outside your territorial waters.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 03) take responsibility for 1982. Stop trying to blame “the military junta”. Political will should mean total recompense for mine clearance on the island, and full financial recompense to the UK government and veterans for the cost of the war.
You first brit pig! 1833,does not ring a bell??
180 years of civilized behaviour against a pirate nation,uk!
uk is FINISHED!
The ape is at it again,
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 01833 is irrelevant
If the UK is finished,
Then Argentina has already gone. [so more crap]
The Falklands are British,
And you aint having them,
So either back it up,
Or just carry on talking
[Your all good at that ]
@45
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina ratified the “Convention of Settlement” TREATY in 1850 and then produced maps in the 1870s and 1880s that acknowledged that the Falkland Islands DID NOT BELONG TO ARGENTINA. One of the more important maps that Argentina produced was the '1882 Latzina Map' The map shows the Falkland Islands (Malvinas) and Argentina IN DIFFERENT COLOURS.
A treaty is an express agreement under international law. Treaties can be compaired to contracts and either party that fails to live up to their obligations can be held liable under international law.
Argentina therefore has NO LEGAL RIGHT TO THE FALKLAND ISLANDS.
The population of the Falkland Islands do not want to be part of Argentina. This is where 'SELF DETERMINATION' is of paramount importance.
In 1833 the few Argentine settlers that were on the islands WERE NOT EXPELLED and were encouraged to stay - AND THEY DID.
To say that the Argentine settlers were expelled by the British IS A LIE.
Unfortunately Argentina is ranked in 100th place in the list of corrupt nations and sits in between Benin and Burkina Faso. Corrupt nations are full of politicians that tell lies and cheat this is why they are corrupt.
sadly Malvinero1 no understand, Malvinero1 no care , Malvinero1 no interested,
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Malvinero1 is anti brit, he hates the british,
why Malvinero1 why,
Because
Malvinero1 is jealous
Malvinero1 is envious
Malvinero1 is a bad loser
Malvinero1 is sad
Inside every bad Malvinero1
Is a very good Argentinean struggling to get out .
lol
'the possibility of armed attack initiated by Argentina (as the UK is said to believe possible) is “nonsense.”'
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0...which is what Argentinian representatives said before the last armed attack.
'“We need political will on both sides,” said Argüello. “We need to work side by side to generate political conditions for consensus, and for that we need courage and imagination. It takes two to tango.”'
...and three can't tango.
It looks rather as though Ambassador Argüello and other Argentines agrees with Major Dowling's proposed solution to the reluctance of the Falkland islaners to become Argentinian- abolish them with extreme prejudice.
are you brit or argentinetine
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0the islands are british, have been for centuries
end of.
@42
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That proves exceedingly arduous to do when the country on the other side has never apologized for anything, and in fact still insists (officially and amongst the Hoil Polloi), that Empire was the greatest boon to fall upon the “empired”.
I still read this here: “we brought civilization to Africa”.
The fact most of you still believe yourselves to be arbiters of what constitutes civiliztion is proof you not only are unwilling to issue apology, you are incapable of it, as many of you (not you personally to clarify) cannot perceive the error itself.
This is what really uniquely bothers me about Britain: I must admit you are exceedingly cunning in framing your nation as the victims of others agressions (you pointed at France, Germany, Argentina), while at the same time monolithically as a nation (government and citizenry), bring forth all sorts of alledged reasons as to why you were really never an agressor.
And when that in itself fails, claim it was simply standard procedure in the past.
I'm sorry, but I can see through all the veneers and phantasmagoria... thus I can't be particularly moved to insist my nation apologize. If I saw iniatiave on the Brits side to do the same onto others, I promise you I would be the first to advocate such a policy.
@35 Tobias “Racialist neighbors do not deserve it” - who exactly are the racists?
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I said “racialists”, not racists.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Racialism implies a belief in your infallibility as an ethnic group, without being agressive about it or even segregationist. Racists are openly agressive and call for various means of harrassment, violence, or at the very least segregation.
It is sufficient to talk to any Buenos Aires cabdriver to understand that the Argentine people know that the Falkland Islands will not be ‘recovered’ by Argentina. The only locals who appear not to understand this basic fact of life are a group of war veterans, a small bunch of nationalist fundamentalists, and practically the entire lot of Argentine politicians.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 07:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Needless to say, however, in so doing the politicians are cheating and lying. The great majority of these politicians know that the Falklands will not be Argentine again, but they choose not to acknowledge this for fear of losing votes.
Indeed, within Argentina’s ‘political class’ there are two types of lies regarding the Falklands: the benign and the malign ones. The Falklands discourse of the late foreign minister Guido Di Tella was plagued with paradigmatic examples of ‘benign lies’. He wanted Argentines to believe that Argentina was going to recover the Falkland Islands through peaceful means, ‘seducing’ the Islanders while accumulating a sufficient number of national successes so as to actually make it convenient for the average Islander to accept Argentine sovereignty. Di Tella did not accept the Islanders’ right to self-determination, but he was conscious of the fact that if Argentina did not succeed in making itself an attractive country, it would be impossible to get the British Government and Parliament to accept a transfer of sovereignty.
This type of lie is benign because the costs of failure, to Argentina, are low. Di Tella’s Christmas cards to the Falklands population will be remembered in Falkland history as the eccentric gesture of a well-meaning official who represented a neighbouring country that once threatened the Islanders. The most important cost of this type of lie is the attempt to deceive the Argentines themselves. Because the Argentines already know intuitively that the Falklands will not be theirs again, this lie leads to an increase in the disillusionment of the Argenti
51 tobias
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For a 21st century country, who refuses to apologise,
Then condemns a past empire of the 20th century, is rather pathetic don’t you think.
: I must admit you are exceedingly cunning in framing your nation as the victims of others aggressions,//////
Again two faced from a nation that illegally invaded an innocent unarmed defenceless peaceful islands, and directly the cause of the deaths over 700 innocent humans,
Then not only does this argieland threaten and insults them, she abuses them tries to blockade them, tells abhorrent lie about them,
And then sends its indoctrinated supporters onto bloggs like this to tell lies,
And all the while it is CFK that claims to be the victim im all this,
.
@55
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why is it pathetic for us to point it out, but not pathetic for you to point it out? If we go by the basic human rule “first come, first served”, you are the ones in need of an apology FIRST. It is pathetic that you ask us an apology when you had 40 years before 1982 to apologize (if you really deem apologies as so important), yet did nothing.
You can throw all the ad hominems you want Briton, then pretend I'm from Costa Rica, and I just told you this. How would you rebut then?
So now Argentina is abusing the islanders. In these threads we abuse them, in the economic threads we have no power over them...
Make up your minds [for once].
@51
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forget Britain. Forget what Britain does or doesn't do.
Why doesn't Argentina be the bigger one, the mature one, and initiate something simply because its the right thing to do rather than depending on what the UK does or doesn't do?
Why do you think that a few nationalistic comments on here represent the UK as a whole? You are generalizing. I'm British and like many other Brits I know I don't share the racist, offensive and 'wasn't the Empire great' ideas that 1 or 2 posters on here display.
THINK & Malvinero1
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please take a look at this to gain a better understanding of the Falkland Islanders history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Falkland_Islanders
Also Malvinero1 could you please tell me more about yourself.
Age, Sex, Location? I'm just curious.
Thanks in advance
@58
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The answer to your first question is unsurprisingly, that we do not have the political maturity to do so. From what is always propounded here by your side, Britain does have that political maturity. Yet, we have had crickets.
And I don't mean apologize for Empire itself, apologize for the excesses of empire, and the documented cases of violence, opression, and outright deracination. Empire itself is nothing but just a small plinth in what we call History, history being the dynamic shifts in human-made borders and cultures that are ineludible in an living, organic entity.
Tobias
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly, you can't do exactly what you prescribe. Take the entire history of the world, and get fair and equitable accountability for each nation and individual on the planet. Your view is that Britain owes a great debt to the world, mine is the absolute opposite. With 2000 years of international history, multiple wars fought for numerous reasons, inventions, discoveries, colonialism, oppression, through centuries, including two World Wars...very difficult.
Argentina much simpler. Very little in the way of international influence. A genocidal infliction on the South American indigenous, including multiple recent land grabs. The offer of refuge for the genocidal WWII Nazis in return for gold, and an illegal invasion of the FIs cost near a thousand lives. On the plus side Lionel Messi.
Sadly, your “veneer and phantasmagoria” (The most twatish comment by the way)...fails to hide your pathetic one sided view of history..
@57
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take a look at the colours on the '1882 Latzina map'
55 Briton
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It's a masterpiece when you consider the audacity of it. The only problem for Argentina is that they aren't getting away with it. Oh, if you lock yourself in a bubble of Malvinista-led euphoria and only read publications like Mercopress you could (could!) convince yourself that the world is engrossed in the Falklands issue but it couldn't be further from the truth. Like Gordo1 says though, most Argentines know they are wasting their time. The politicians however know they are not wasting their time. They know they are getting somewhere. The problem for the general public though of course is that the goal for the politicians is not getting the Falklands (they know that's too unlikely) but increasing their time in power.
It's entertaining though. My time on Facebook has diminished to next to nothing. LOL!
56 tobias
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your brain washing don’t work with me,
You brought it up,
Then change the subject,
The British empire good or bad is in the past,
And no British people are bloody not nationalist for mentioning it .
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
57 Tobers (
So are you saying then, that I am a nationalist or a racist or bloody left wing .for being proud to be British, and proud of my past,
Are you saying that I must deny my past, and deny the empire,
Is this what you mean?
The British and the empire in the past, may have done some bad things, but also some very good thing, the British have brought very good things to the world,
If that makes me a nationalist , tough
.
@60
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And why is your OPINION and more credible than mine?
Next.
I tell you what though. If only the issue was more popular in the UK because if Ambassador Aguello continued to be so hilarious, AND a decent amount of the UK population knew enough about the issue to be interested, David Walliams would be a dead certainty to play him in the skits when it hit the box. Check out the photo of the ambassador and tell me I'm wrong.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0LOL!
I think the papers here, do a little bit, then leave it alone, for a while, then concentrates on other things,
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Like the euro gravy train.
The government and the economy,
But the more international attention the Falklands receive, then the more it gets into our papers,
Tobias
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I didn't say my opinion was more credible than yours, nor did I “demand” recompense as you suggested earlier. You seem to like lying about what others write, pathetic just like the current wave of Argentine diplomats...if in doubt lie.
What I actually said was we had different opinions, and because of the longevity and complexity of the total British history, very difficult to show either way.
Argentinas history with respect to the Falklands is far simpler, far more black and White, far clear who is the agressor and the victim.
next....(fool!)
The only complexity to British history is the sands of time that make pellucid anamnesis impossible, since the protagonists are all dead.
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I will give you this though: events in history are rarely black and white. To you the Falklands maybe one such case, but please refrain from stating that all of Argentina's historical conflicts are black and white (with us being black of course). If you have any sense of fairness, you would desist from suggesting as much.
@63
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't see the point in nationalism or any other ideologies.
It hinders rational thinking and thus understanding empathy and respect for others... And that causes problems...
& 58
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 09:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Steve is the real name of poster “ Think” ?
We need more information . Age ,sex,location....
69 Tobers so being nationalist is being disrespectfull to other,
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 11:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0but on being proud [like you] is ok then,
getting rid of everythingbritish is ok for people like you then is,it,
why not get rid of the british all together, the royal family, the union jack, and the st george, the pound, the royal navy the RAF the armly, shit why not just exsterminate all the bloody british, becuae it offend you,
is this what you are saying,
we supose you are a pro EU nut, that wishes to become a europend puppet,
go back to sleep tobers,, what are you a hypercrit,
you come on here, on one hand defending the falklandeds, and then call them all bloody nationalst, for being proud to be british,
you have to be an argentine troll.
you aint no bloody british thats for sure ,
I thought in Britain dissenting views were tolerated...
Jun 02nd, 2012 - 11:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0they are, you are entitled to your own opinion,
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 12:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0and so is tobers,
mr tobers is not proud to be british, as he finds this clouds the issue, and may insult others,
mr tobers, is quite rightly intitles to his own opinion, as i am mine,
my fellow britons may not be so polite,
but just like , mr american light, who also dislike our queen,
[so tober is correct is he not]
that being proud to be british does offend some people,
but then who am i to complain,
against freedom of speech , opinions , and preferences,
this is after all a democracy, but i belive mr tobers and american light, now understands, that i do not agree with them,
so there you go mr T T T democracy in action, we are entitled to disagree with each other .
still its of to sea for me, back to morrow ,
mm
@38 Tobias
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0We don't need to take anything from you before an exchange of goodwill can take place. Genuine good will is enough on its own, don't you think?
I presume you accuse us of haughtiness because we have declined Argentina's 'gifts' but please think about the manner in which they were offered. There was no attempt to discover if we needed or wanted them. They were offered publicly and not privately, with the emphasis on Argentina's generosity and setting the stage for casting us villains when we inevitably declined. Our refusal means we are offended, not haughty.
We need nor want anything material from Argentina and I am disappointed that you deliberately misunderstand this. Argentina's goodwill, given genuinely, would also be given freely and that would be worth more than any material thing.
Murky Think
You asked about a two story greenish building in Stanley. If it is in central Stanley it is probably West Store, a supermarket.
@74 honoria,
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 04:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Darn, you beat me to it!
l was going to tell him that the green building was MI6 Head Quarters.
lol
I won't engage in a defense of Argentina's foreign policy, which is desultory and grotesquely addlepated. Especially since I am a staunch isolationist in foreign relations.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 04:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0As the Falklands have nothing of beneficial consequence for Argentina (leaving aside the sovereignty hubhub which is of my unequivocal dissaproval), then nothing forseeable will catalyze the rearing of goodwill anytime soon.
74 Honoria and 75 Isolde
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 07:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0I was thinking the building he was talking about might have been Marvin's (now Pete's) place up the back of Stanley.
74
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0probably ?....means that you dont live in these islands.
74--75
none of whom.!
a clue ..: ... this building has been green since 1960 th years.
other clue...:..
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0a Mercopress commentator knows what it is ...
This Argentine fool can go on as much as he wants. Fact is the Islands are British - legally, morally and in all other practical terms.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0Argentinians keep going on about “negotiations”. We accept all the boasts that Argentina is a large and extremely wealthy Country, so is Argentina offering other territory in exchange or just cash?
Argentina is like some vagrant who appears at your doorstep and demands to get into your house, on the grounds that one of his relatives once lived there. When you object, and say he has no right of entry he replies that you are being aggressive and belligerent, insisting that your refusal to negotiate will result in conflict. The only option is to remove him forcefully. Then he just sits and the bottom of your garden sulking and harassing your visitors and passers-by. Unfortunately you're not allowed to just shoot him.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0“We need political will on both sides” to reach agreement on Falklands/Malvinas says Argüello
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0What??? It's taken from 1833 til now and the Argentines have only just got this thought through their silly think heads????
It just goes to show the world what kind of thick headed country we are dealing with. It will probably take another 100 years for them to apologise from the 1982 invasion............ If anyone has bought sandwiches, now would be the time to eat them.
@41 Tobias “would cost Euroepan nations 240 trillion of today's dollars”
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe the entire stolen land of Argentina is worth that much? Presumably, like us, you're European too. By way of 'reparations' we could divide Argentina and hand it over to the remaining indigenous South Americans. I know there are no more Africans in Argentina, those that descended from your slave population, as you had them all killed, but we could import a few million from Brazil and other American nations that didn't slaughter theirs. Then you could bog off back to Europe, if anybody here would have you.
81 Alexei
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, but wait until next time they (try to) invade: if we have a PM with balls by then, the destruction of the infrastructure of Patagonia is a sure way to bring BsAs to a dead stop (no electricity).
One sub in Falklands (there are no Malvinas) waters with land attack missiles (conventional heads) can easily take out the power plants (hydro-electric) and their biggest oilfields.
No need to put military personnel on the ground. :o)
@84 ChrisR Appealing notion though pummelling the **** out of Argentine infrastructure is, we should try to remember that the 'malvinista' nutters posting on this site are (hopefully) not representative of the Argentine people as a whole. Having said that, if you see the way they indoctrinate their children with 'patriotic' bullshit nazi style propaganda in their schools ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EJeM6ifRbA ) you have to have some sympathy for them and cut them some slack.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@75 Isolde
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0lol wish I had thought of that!
@ 77 Joe Bloggs
Could be. I will ask him where in Stanley ......
@ 78 Misty/MurkyThink
Oh, I see you have set a Kelper ID test for me. Not a trusting soul, then. Well, I assumed you had been sneaking a peek with Google Earth and been looking at green roofs. Now I wonder if you have been here which means eye level view of a greenish building. Could be the power station. Maybe the Pink Shop which was once green. There are lots of two story buildings in Stanley and the combined brain power of Mr H and I can't come up with one actually painted green. Which area of Stanley are you thinking about?
86
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 01:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can we see the colours of buildings from Google Earth ? Nay !
I understand and appreciate your islands senses..even if you never seen it.
Argüello's sub-text is that Britain needs the political will to abandon the Falkland Islanders to their fate with Argentina, whereas Argentina needs the political will to make it easier for Britain to hand over the Falkland Islands to Argentina.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sticky point is that if Argentine stops its embargoing, lets the Falkland Islanders live in peace, there is no “incentive” to cave-in to the Malvinistas? So how does Argentina manage a carrot-and-stick initiative?
Argentina sees that the defence costs of Mount Pleasant Base + ship visits, are insufficient to make Britain want to give up the Falklands, so a full-on political and economic offensive is being mounted in order to increase costs to Britain and to decrease the viability of Falklands' economic bases.
One might expect that while Argentina doesn't want to take a chance on any further military adventures against the Falkand Islands, there may be elements right now in Argentina who are planning their own initiatives to attempt to embarrass Britain globally, or on the Falklands themselves. For CFK, playing with these radicals like Quebracho might be seen as a double-edged sword that could in the end confirm to the Falkland Islanders to solidify the British presence even longer and deeper.
http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/false-falklands-history-at-the-united-nations-how-argentina-misled-the-un-in-1964-and-still-does/
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0:-)
@75 Hilarious! : )
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 02:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 085 Alexei
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your are absolutely correct that it is 'only' the Malvanistas, the government (at all levels) and the indoctrination of falsehoods at school that causes the vitriolic reaction we see here to Brits.
However, there must come a time when someone needs to break the chain of this deceit for the good of Argentina as a whole and 'my' suggestion came infact from the deliberations of Carlos Escude, an academic whose masterpiece on the 'Malvinas Question,: The Case For Argentina' showed utter contempt for The Pedagogical Doctrines' as he put it. He stated basically that it was a good job Britain never sent a carrier to deal such a blow.
It is without doubt THE LEAST force that would stop the country: not kill masses of the ordinary people, some of who in BsAs are my friends and detest what is happening to the country.
It would allow a regime change without destroying the country as a whole.
@83
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 04:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Me European? Are you insane, I would have killed myself in the third trimester.
You reparations chimerical tale was a enthralling read, but I'm afraid it was a jejune attempt at quips. Fact is, Argentina abolished stavery within Argentina in 1813, and the climate of the country was not suitable for slaves unlike the rest of Latin America and the southern USA, thus the actual population of africans was not very large.
Remember, when they say 30% of Argentina was black, we are talking about a time (1850 and earlier), before the mass immigrations when Argentina was the least populous nation in the Americas, yes less than Chile, Canada and actaully Paraguay had more people (thus they could engage in war with us in the mide 1860s).
Chris,
We just don't like the Brits, nothing personal. We don't like the Spaniards either, or the Germans, and the Italians have worn on us. We don't like you. When you become humble people, perhaps.
@92 Tobias. Just which South American native tribe are you descended from?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If you aren't descended from them, then I would bet my bottom dollar that you are descended from Europeans. So by saying you dislike Europeans means you are saying that dislike yourself and the majority of your countrymen, who are also descended from Europeans.
A bit hypocritical of you, isn't it?
However, back to the story. The Argentine government continues to talk to the wrong people. They need to talk to the Falkland Islands Government regarding sovereignty, as it has nothing to do with the British Government. The British Government will only ensure fair play, and stop the Argentines from cheating.
So Argentina, roll up, roll up, to be given a big 'get lost' by the Falkland Islands Government.
There's nothing hypocritical since I'm not European.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 04:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Falkland Islands are British, they don't have UN representation.
http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml#f
&94
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Correct, the Falkland Islands are British and Argentina has no legal claim to them.
And you have no legal claim to our ports.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 05:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As per @47
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina has no legal right to the Falkland Islands.
No agreement to be reached, The Falklands have already expressed their right of Self determination and it didnt involve Argenweener, they dont need Argenweeners permission to choose their rights for them.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
Ambassador Arguello is another Argentine Clown. Arguello was quoted addressing an audience at the University of Mexico saying “Falkland Islanders relied heavily on social benefits granted by the United Kingdom.” In fact the Falkland Islanders are auto sufficient and receive no social benefits from the UK.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yet another Argentine liar.
@94 - Tobias.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 06:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I never said you were European, but I bet you were descended from Europeans, hence why your dislike of Europeans is hypocritical and bizarre.
So unless your ancestors are native South Americans, you must be from descended from Asians, Africans, or Europeans.
Considering the demographic makeup of Argentine society it's very likely you are from European descent.
However, it doesn't change the fact that the Argentine government needs to speak to the Falkland Islands government and not the UK government, which they won't do, hence there can never be any progress.
Argentina is blocking progress by their refusal to accept the Falkland Islanders as a people in their own right.
75 lsolde
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank you for all you support.
76
Your enthusiasm is slightly wrong,
You can’t hate everyone,
Who then will make the tea….
And Toby,,
You started all this with tobers
There will be no tea for you today,
Coffee only .
Yuk .
.
Vice-President Marcos Paz, opening the Argentine Congress on 1 May 1866, said:
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 08:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The British Government has accepted the President of the Republic of Chile as arbitrator in the reclamation pending with the Argentine Republic, for damages suffered by English subjects in 1845. This question, which is the only one between us and the British nation, has not yet been settled.”
*** This question, which is the only one between us .. ***
In the Latzina Map, Mapa Geográfico de la República Argentina…, Buenos Aires 1882, the Falklands are marked in a blank beige colour, like Chile or Uruguay but unlike Argentina, which is marked much darker with shaded relief. It shows that in 1882 Argentina did not consider the Falklands part of its territory.
http://www.falklandshistory.org/sites/default/files/false-falklands-history.pdf
If contributors here circumscribed the scope of their commentary strictly within the purviews of the discussions about the Falklands and the islanders' indefeasible rights to determine their state of affairs, then virtually all of you would be regarded as completely rational contributors.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 08:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0But many of you have been betrayed by an almost prurient proclivity to troll the Argentines, as a whole (not just the so-called “malvinistas”), and thus seem compelled by an inner, Cimmerian force to compose replies on topics patently beyond your ken (mainly about Argentine history or culture). As a consequence, some of you come across as asinine sciolists, and a few others as jejune, inverecund ultracrepidarians, to whom one merely deigns to vouchsafe perfunctory forbearance at best; and a few others deserving of outright dismissal, spurn, and condign ostracizing. Such stygian emotions tergiversate your reputation and redound to your shame.
This results in you alienating those Argentines whose opinions may be consonant, precluding any fledgling rapprochement that could be nurtured to eventuate irenic denouement between the denizens of both factions in a fantastically distant future. But most importantly, it diminishes your own contributions because when you indite what are either arrantly mendacious apocrypha or irrefragable canards about Argentina, then one is forced to engage in leery percontation, as to whether other asseverations by such individuals are also equally issuable. One may attempt to prescind fact from confabulation, fibs, and lies, but such efforts become anfractuous and ineludibly protract one's time of participation.
Fescennine, furciferous excurcurses only debouch to atmemoting and public pillory.
Re. 102
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Latzina Map, Mapa Geográfico de la República Argentina…, Buenos Aires 1882 can be seen here:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4146/5040513492_334ddaa1ac_b.jpg and here:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4146/5040513492_334ddaa1ac_b.jpg
The red lines are average temperatures (note the numbers).
Also the map “Limites Australes de la Republica Argentina”, 1881, shows no Falklands Islands as part of Argentina.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4146/5040513492_334ddaa1ac_b.jpg
Neither does the 1905 map of Argentina's military regions:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4146/5040513492_334ddaa1ac_b.jpg
@104StJohn
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh dear, Oh dear. Oh dear. Rather takes the wind out of the historic arguement doesn'it?
@ 41 tobias
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0who wrote: “At what point to you move on? Ever? It is 30 years now... ”
At what point to you move on? Ever? - it is 179 years now - and de facto possession is 99% of a legal entitlement dispute.
Taking the issue to the International Court of Justice is the only realistic solution, which unfortunately Argentina won't accept (rejected 1947, would not respect the decision of the court when the UK tried unilaterally in 1955).
@ 105 reality check
In particular Vice-President Marcos Paz's statement in Argentine congress.
Your arguments are ridiculous guys. Trully ridiculous.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't believe the Falklands are argie, but your arguments above are still ridiculous.
If treaties are dateless... then why isn't François Hollande your head of state? You did officially crown Willian as king, a froggie didn't you? That's as good as a treaty accepting French rule?
So you do violate treaties then... England is clearly French based on 1066.
@107 Don't you have homework to do?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's the best pushback?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I will have homework soonwith meek replies like that.
@107TTT
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No we did not crown William king, he invaded and took the crown, which was in 1066. The last time we were invaded, which might be why we are slightly touchy about invasions. Still one in a thousand years is not a bad record, many have tried since, the Spanish, the French and recently the Germans.
William the Bastard was not French, he was Norman, decended from Vikings, the Norse, hence the name Norman or Norse Men. I suppose you could try the connection that Normandy was eventually incorporated into France and that Francois Hollande has inherited Normandies right to the Sovereignty of England and thus Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, Vis A Vis the UK.
A tenuos claim at best, but still, one that seems to be in vogue in the current political climate
@41 Thanks for your potted history of the slave trade. Are you keeping count? Don't forget to include the Libyans, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Italians, the Chinese, the Indians, the Islamic Caliphate, the Portuguese, the Spanish. And guess what? We Brits made it illegal. We used to send Royal Navy ships all over the world putting a stop to it. Did you think about that? So do give us some figures for how much the Libyans, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Italians, the Portuguese and the Spanish owe? As for “moving on”, why don't you? You tried to steal the Islands 30 years ago. You're still trying. Why don't YOU move on?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@45 You won't remember 1690 or 1765. Try looking them up.
@51 Your problem, sonny, is that you have serious delusions. One delusion is that argieland has ever told the truth about the Falkland Islands. Another is that “you” are a nation.
@56 Why don't you try issuing an apology for 1820?
@59 You've had little chirping insects? How nice.
@64 Because you're an argie.
@68 Tell us something “good” you've done.
@110 Why would Hollande inherit anything? He comes from a long line of frogs who wouldn't cross the English Channel. Ones that moved into territory the Normans had vacated.
I guess you weren't touchy enough about invasions to try to take over Buenos Aires while the Spanish had evacuated virtually all their troops, therefore forcing innocent civilians to their deaths.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 09:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0One would think given the attempts by the other European powers to take you over, that you would have a bit further consideration for us. Yet you did not.
@112TTT
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now see there you go again. At that time we were at war with Napoleon and Spain was allied with him. We did not attack or invade Aregntina, you did not exist then, we attacked our enemy, the Spanish. All of which changed, when old Boney invaded Spain and put his brother on the throne. Which led to an allience between, Portugal, Spain and England, the Penninsula War and eventually Waterloo. As for British atrocities in BA, they pale in comparison to the French behaviour in Spain.
I do have consideration for you, I have no wish for us to engage in another conflict with you. I wish you would show the same for the Falkland Islanders.
Well, they pale perhaps simply because you didn't have enough time to carry much out, in a matter of days you laid down your arms and hied.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What you fail to understand is that those civilians you attacked are by heritage argentine, it is something I don't expect you to understand as European borders are far shiftier, but in Argentina someone that lived 500 years ago is Argentine rectroactively if they left descendants.
Ironic however, that in a couple of days you killed more Buenos Aires civilians (NOT SPANISH, they had never set foot in Spain), than any argentine troops in the Falklands.
The only instance of our two peoples being at war, it was the supposedly more humane Brits that displayed less humanity towards civilians. We were in the Falklands for almost two months and no civilians were killed, no women raped. In that, we were better than the Germans, Russian, French, and you when in BA.
@ 107 Truth_Telling_Troll
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0treaties are forever - until events invalidates them.
No events have changed the validity of the treaty.
Even if we ignore the past before the war in 1982 when the UK reconquered the islands, they would belong to the UK overseas territories as spoils of war, same as the Argentinian provinces Misiones and Formosa, which were conquered by Argentina in the late 19th century - is Argentina about to hand these provinces back to the historical owner?
@114 - Tobias while your post is interesting, just what does it have to do with the subject of this story?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0However, since you want to bring up history, how about the 300,000 plus native South Americans that your ancestors murdered? Or what about the 30,000 people murdered by your government during the dirty war? That government employed rape on a large scale as torture and punishment, as well as other methods of torture.
So, the British were accused by you of committing rape in BA nearly 200yrs ago, when armies were usually made up of criminals and other unfortunates of society, thus difficult to control at best, whereas the Argentine military employed rape against its own people less than 50 years ago.
All countries have good and bad in their pasts, so stop trying to make out that Argentina is completely unstained by its past, when we all know different.
@114TTT
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What are you waffling about! Did you or did you not fight a war of liberation against Spain and achieve independence, in 1817 I think it was, yes or no?
What in the name of all that is sane are you doing comparing the actions of soldiers in the early 19C to soldiers in the late 20C. What? you think they were the same men?
As for the conduct of your troops in 1982.
1. Taking civilians out to the sea wall putting a pistol in the back of their head and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber.
2. Locking up the entire population of Goose Green, men, women and children, in a building for a month.
3. Painting red crosses on the roofs of ammunition dumps and other military instillations.
4. Shooting unarmed aircrew survivors in the water.
5. Using search lights from a hospital ship to illuminate enemy combatants.
6. Using the white flag and murdering troops who came forward to take the surrender.
7. Trying to decoy a helicopter carrying truce envoys down on to a mined helipad.
8. Placing artillery in school yards and amongst islanders houses.
9. Staking out you own men on the ground and executing them for theft.
Oh yes, your troops realy behaved well in 82, didn't they?
Can he prove what the supposed British troops did,
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Documents/paper clipping please,
Were they all British in this skirmish, or nearer the truth, were many foreign,
Men for hire, [cant remember the proper name for them]
“Even if we ignore the past before the war in 1982 when the UK reconquered the islands, they would belong to the UK overseas territories as spoils of war”
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now we are talking. That is the only rational needed.
Word of caution: as unikely as you may find this, perhaps one day in in the future (given Britains declining population, while Argentina's growth is slow but steady), and changing economic conditions could make it that in the future we have a stronger army.
And might makes right, obviously.
@116
What we did within our country is only of concern to us, not to you. That's that.
@117
Your litany is clean as a heterosexual nun in a convent on sunday, compared to what you Europeans did in WWII (a war within OUR ERA, not 200 years ago). Yes, even the British, lets not even talk about the Germans, Japanese, and Russians.
@114TTT,
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0-“no civilians killed, no women raped”
That was to come later when you had consolidated your grip .
You were on your best behaviour because you desperately hoped that the British would not react.
You knew that a British, indeed a UN liberating force would be on its way for sure if you started any atrocities.
A leopard never changes its spots.
How could we trust a nation that murdered AT LEAST 30,000 of its own citizens?
lf you had succeeded, forced evacuations with all its horrors would have been the order of the day.
Yes, TTT, you are such peaceful, benign creatures, aren't you?
Can't understand why we don't love you & roll over to have our bellies tickled.
@115 St John,
l have raised that point in the past, but rarely get a reply.
malen once said that the land was theres because “Paraguay had signed a treaty” ha, with guns at their heads no doubt.
“That was to come later when you had consolidated your grip”
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That is utter speculation and completely you completely derogate yourself doing so.
I'm not saying you should thank us, the invasion was a abominable crime, but we did not commit those things. Had the invaders been Brazilian or Chilean (given what they did to the Paraguayans and Peruvians respectively), I will leave it there.
My xo says they were mercenaries .
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So now he saying British atrocities in Wll
But again, still no proof
.
Isolde
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The guys a prat. Perhaps he thinks all those troops walking around the islands armed to the teeth and imposing their will by force was an extension of Argentinas philanthropic character, bringing their benevolent ways to the islanders. Nothing but a bunch of armed thugs imposing their will on a peaceful people who wanted nothing more than to live the way they always lived.
@ 54 Gordo1 wrote: “... The only locals who appear not to understand this basic fact of life are ... and practically the entire lot of Argentine politicians.”
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You can exclude the politicians, who don't believe in their own rethoric.
They pull the islands dispute out of the closet, remove the mothballs and make the nationalists shout “Malvinas Argentinas” every time a severe internal crisis is building, as we have seen it during the past 12 months.
London Cage, Bombing of Dresden, looting of French towns along the Norman coast Operation Overlord, shooting off feeble German elderly conscripts around Berlin 1945.
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0then prove it
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@125 -Tobias your proof?
Jun 03rd, 2012 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The bombing of Dresden happened, but the Germans had already bombed the sh!t out of British cities, they sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.
Also you seem to have run out of quirky 18th and 19th century English words. Has your thesaurus been stolen?
You really are getting more desperate and pathetic by the moment aren't you? Poor Tobias, pathetic Tobias or do you want me to call you TTT?
Ok, then I'll return to my high English then.
Jun 04th, 2012 - 12:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0I really got you all with the vocabulary thing. You all cannot stand that an inferior argie has better command of his second language than you superior Anglos have of your 1st.
@125TTT
Jun 04th, 2012 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who the hell is publishin your reference books?
“The London cage”
I assume you mean where captured German aircrew were interrogated, sorry old boy, prehaps we sholud have made them tea and crumpets. After all they were only bombing our women and children.
Looting along the French coast after Overlord, all armies loot, those soldiers caught are punished.
Bombing of Dresden.
“The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.”
Shooting of feeble elderly german conscripts round Berlin in 1945. Tell that to the 25 million Russian dead! They are damned lucky the city was not plowed over and salted.
If tomorrow the Falkland Islanders said:
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Please we desperately want to be Argentines, please take us in”.
Kretina, Timerman, Castro, and the rest of the mad troupe would immediately look for excuses not to accept.
It would mean the end to the smoke and mirrors. What would Kretina use to destract our attention away from her theft of the little there is left in the Aegentine cupboard?
“an inferior argie ” You really have a big problem with that don't you?
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0@131
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Not at all. I don't think I am inferior for being argie. That's the rest of you.
I don't understand all this hullabaloo about an Argentine ambassador's following the instructions of his government. Forget Arguello, he's just an overpaid megaphone. If Argentina really wanted a solution, they should start by eliminating their claim to ownership of the Falklands from their oh-so-often ignored constitution. Until then, nothing can change.
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0@133ynsere
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Agree 100%.
I don't understand all this hullabaloo about an Argentine ambassador's following the instructions of his government. Forget Arguello, he's just an overpaid megaphone. If Argentina really wanted a solution, they should start by eliminating their claim to ownership of the Falklands from their oh-so-often ignored constitution. Until then, nothing can change
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0AHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
First uk pays the rent of MAlvinas to the true owner,Argentina,rent since 1833...and all damages,NAZI brit!
@135M1
Jun 04th, 2012 - 01:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0On this page too. What? is it recreation time at the home, do they know they have allowed you access to a PC?
Some of the posters keeps harping on UN Resolution 2065 (XX), of 16 December 1965, which
Jun 04th, 2012 - 02:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0“1. Invites the Governments of Argentina and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to proceed without delay with the negotiations”
and they lament the nonconformance of the UK.
They somehow fail to mention UN Resolution 502, of 3 April 1982, which
”1. Demands an immediate cessation of hostilities;
2. Demands an immediate withdrawal of all Argentine forces from the Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas);”
Outstanding questions:
Did Argentina abide by resolution 502?
If not, then why should the UK respect Resolution 2065?
Trolling argentina is niether big or clever but it is funny and we use there tears of rage to power our type t45 pirate death star :)
Jun 04th, 2012 - 07:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0@135 Malvinero1,
Jun 04th, 2012 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who let you out?
Get back in your cage, immeadiately.
Now calm down & l'll get your injections ready.
JAB(hard)aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Peace in ward C again.
@128 - Tobias.
Jun 04th, 2012 - 08:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0No you haven't got us at all with this vocabulary thing. I find it amusing that you are using archaic English words from the 18th and 19th century. Amusing yes, but you do it because you think it makes you sound more intelligent, but it doesn't, it makes it sound like you are trying too hard.
It would be similar to me posting in Spanish, but using the Spanish language from the 18th century. It is different than modern Spanish, just as the words you use are different than modern English. You see Tobias, languages evolve over time, they don't stand still.
Why are you still posting as TTT? I prefer your Tobias alter ego.
However, back to the story. Argentina needs to grow up and stop trying to rake what isn't theirs; the Falklands, thee South Sandwich Islands, South Georgia etc...
U.K. took control of the Islands in 1833, ‘expelling the inhabitants’
Jun 04th, 2012 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Same lies, same head in the sand mentality.
Soon unravelled at the ICJ....
@119 I like your comments and the “thoughts” behind them. Let's go on from there.
Jun 04th, 2012 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. The British arrived on the Islands in 1690. 120 years before “you” existed.
2. The British formally claimed the Islands in 1765. 45 years before “you” existed.
3. “You” took advantage of a temporary British absence to trespass.
4. “You” got thrown off. Twice. Once by the Americans and once by the British.
5. Not content with the treaty “you” signed, you eventually summoned up the courage to launch a sneak, underhand invasion. And got thrown off again.
6. By virtue of the principle of uti possidetis, the Islands are now, indisputably, British.
7. As you are now committed to peaceful and diplomatic means, you can't win and we can't lose!
8. In the unlikely event of your population growing to an extent that you can have a bigger army, you will need around 250,000. Because 1 British soldier equals 5 argies.
9. Don't forget that what we do in and on our territory is our business, not yours.
10. And what we have done, anywhere else in the world and whenever, is also our business not yours.
@135 “AHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
First uk pays the rent of MAlvinas to the true owner,Argentina,rent since 1833...and all damages,NAZI brit!” We already paid. 255 dead Britons. Considering what it cost you, you still owe us for 254 dead Britons!
Briton
Jun 04th, 2012 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There has been a story going round for years that in 82 the Argentines were using American mercenaries. I don't believe it is true as there has never been any hard evidence. I once asked an Argentine veteran about it and he said that wealthy Argentine families often sent their children to US universities, which could account for young Argentines speaking English with an American accent. Maybe so.
Arguella is another Argentine talking propaganda for home consumption for the gullible public who need to be distracted by the fact that Argentina is going down the pan. Flush...
Jun 04th, 2012 - 06:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina signed a treaty with Great Britain in 1850 and produced a number of maps that either excluded the Falkland Islands or showing them in a different colour thereby acknowledging that they had no claim on the Islands. Then along came Peron and now CFK and C0 who constantly spin lies about the history of the Falklands for political purposes.
THERE IS NO LEGAL ARGENTINE CLAIM...
Argentina AWAKE!
.. 143 honoria
Jun 04th, 2012 - 07:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You may well be correct,
Thank you ……..
With Tobias or Toby or TTT ,
We suspect, [without proof of course
That he is either an ex brit, a brit who likes to play,
Or a very clever educated argentine.
These exotic upper crust elaborated posh extraordinary words,
Are as you all say, from an online text book, or 18-19th century literature .
Either way, there are words—and words, and there are some words, that foreigners, just don’t use [full stop ]
And he uses them,
He is good, but not that good,
Perhaps CFK knows him better lolol.
.
Malvinero 1 @ 135 - I'm not a nazi. In fact I'm proud that some of my forbears volunteered to fight the nazis when they could have stayed at home making money. And I'm not a Brit. I'm a proud Uruguayan, but sooner a Brit than someone like you! Long live the Falklands.
Jun 04th, 2012 - 07:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 119 Truth_Telling_Troll who writes:
Jun 04th, 2012 - 11:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“And might makes right, obviously.”
Yes, doesn't it?
How did Spain come into possession of Spanish South America?
How did Argentina come into possession of what is today Argentina?
- might makes right, obviously.
@truth telling troll.
Jun 05th, 2012 - 08:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stop being a prat. None of arguments about the napoleonic wars or ww2 really have any kind of bearing on your forced occupation of the falklands in 1982 or upon your countrie's continual aggression in this area.
In the early 1800s we were at war with Spain. You were a Spanish colony. You therefor were a target worth attacking. Napoleonic warfare in terms of storming towns was not pretty. Our army was as bad as any other for commiting atrocities once the defences were breached - our army did it in Spain, when they became our allies (it makes unbelievable reading today).
I make no excuses for those crimes, and wish that we had behaved in a more civilised manner, and prosecuted those commiting atrocities, however - EVERYONE acted the same way.......
This does not excuse your invasion in 1982. Almost 180 years separated the attack on BA from this event - unless of course you are suggesting that we were (and therfor, are,) still at war?
Its a bit like us demanding the US eastern seaboard because the USA attacked canada in 1812.
Then you wheel out another standard clutching at straws argument about WW2. This is the “Britain was beastly to the poor defenceless and innocent Germans” argument. This gets an airing whenever your lot know that you don't have the moral hight ground as a distraction away from your own attempts at land grabbing and oppresion/ethnic cleanisng in 82.
Basically this argument states that jolly old Britain should have just taken it on the chin from the Germans, and let the Luftwaffe, V1s, V2s etc level our cities, let the Germans turn europe into a slave labour camp and let the Germans exterminate millions of people in gas chambers while we played by marquis of queensbury rules.
What bollocks. In war you hit the enemy back - we hit the Germans back hard and we did the same to the next facsist aggressor - Argentina in 1982.
Stop crying about it.
@148shb,
Jun 05th, 2012 - 10:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0Precisely,
Couldn't have put it any better myself.
@127/128, with regards to TTT's choice of expression; I did wonder if TTT was motivated to employ a debating tactic of sesquipedalianism by a simple desire for lexical precision and to demonstrate personal erudition -and also perhaps also use of words closest to one's mother tongue which read the most pleasing - OR as a tactic to disempower intellectual challenge, i.e. as a form of obscurantism that seeks by using logomachinations to divert discussion to the establishment of the opponent's comprehension of the vocabulary. (source ref. The great God Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesquipedalianism ).
Jun 05th, 2012 - 12:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I feel it began as my former proposition but ended as my latter. Or perhaps a little of both perhaps from the outset?
Still, TTT's opinions are well expressed. I don't agree with them on the whole, but comprehend where TTT is coming from. We all have a point of view and an opinion formed by it. TTT's arguments sound coherent from arguing from a certain position of equivalence, but for me they do not carry the debate
Specifically the argument of guilt by association regarding past acts and omissions of ancestors as a just and valid form of collective guilt their descendants and their associated successor states appears to be an ad hominem fallacy to me because mens rea is absent
I think what our current generations of descendants are actually searching for is demonstrable resipiscence of one's ancestors acts & omissions by their descendants
More equally importantly, I think the choice needs to be made to settle differences amicable. In this Argüello is right to say the political will on both sides is needed, but he is wrong to blame the British for lack of political will and to scapegoat the Falkland Islanders, without also critically examining Argentina's position
I am still hopeful that one day the UN International Court of Justice could help each part resolve their legal issues
In the meantime I wish peace, goodwill & happiness to all protagonists!
The islands are British , full stop,
Jun 05th, 2012 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As for the ICJ , they should make a decision,
When and if Argentina goes there,
In the mean time,
Argentina should grow up, and act like a mature and sensible country, instead of a delinquent dictatorship .
#150 “Specifically the argument of guilt by association regarding past acts and omissions of ancestors as a just and valid form of collective guilt their descendants and their associated successor states appears to be an ad hominem fallacy to me because mens rea is absent”
Jun 05th, 2012 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Or as the Bible quoted earlier said, in simpler language, the sins of the father should not be visited on the son. I agree. But it has to cut both ways - ie it applies just as much to all the attacks on the crimes of 19th century Argentina to guilt the current, progressive, Argentina
“Or as the Bible quoted earlier said, in simpler language, the sins of the father should not be visited on the son.”
Jun 05th, 2012 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You've been reading the Unauthorised Version of the bible, BK. What the bible actually says, more than once, is “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation”.
What makes you think the current Argentina is progressive? It still seems to run on traditional Peronist lines- populist caudillism, kleptocracy and xenophobic rhetoric. There's no need to attack the crimes of nineteenth century Argentina when Argentine politics is dominated by the political descendants of a twentieth century criminal.
@ 150 Domingo
Jun 06th, 2012 - 12:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0“I am still hopeful that one day the UN International Court of Justice could help each part resolve their legal issues”
I share your wish, but it's somewhat difficult when Argentina refuses to abide to an ICJ ruling.
Argentina refused to bring the disputes before the ICJ in 1947 and refused to abide to an ICJ ruling in 1955 when the UK brought it before the court.
@152 British kirchnerist.
Jun 06th, 2012 - 07:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0However, the Argentines last aggression in 1982 is still in living memory, and to make it worse the Argentines still gloat over the successful invasion and the amount of damage they did to our armed forces in their war of aggression.
They make it perfectly clear that they think they were in the right and that they would re-occupy the islands in an instant, if they could.
They strive to jusify their war of aggresion using lies, omission and distortion. They propagandise their own population to support their continued aggression in a manner worthy of your socialist ideal - the world of 1984.
They are still a threat to the lives of our service men and the liberty of the falklanders.
Next time we should go for unconditional surrender and make them remove the Falklands from their constition- or we will have to go through this stupid charade with them ad nasueam.
They are only trying it on because they think we are weak. People like you encourage that image.
“They are only trying it on because they think we are weak”- exactly.
Jun 07th, 2012 - 08:27 am - Link - Report abuse 01) They “claimed” British Antarctica in 1941 or 1942 because they thought that we would lose the war.
2) They invaded the Falklands in 1982 because, among other things, we removed our Patrol Ship.
3) Now they're stirring up trouble again because we've not got any Aircraft carriers yet.
They are going to try again, l can sense it.
156 lsolde
Jun 07th, 2012 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I can see why you are concerned about another invasion.
The question is not the aircraft carrier: the four typhoons are more than capable of downing anything and ALL the Argies have in fast jets or whatever AND don't forget the Type 45 sitting close bye.
AND, you have a submarine with land attack missiles (LAM) right there as well.
AND, if you believe Timmidman, there may be other heavy hammers within striking range, you never know with these deadly subs. :o)
The surest way for Argentina to be destroyed without too many civilian deaths is to attack the Falklands (there are no Malvinas).
@Isolde and ChrisR -
Jun 08th, 2012 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Next time I would throw away the rule book and give think and co something to genuinely cry about.
For the past 30 years our armed forces have been hobbled by increasingly pc rules - and nanny state ideals like “nation building” in 3rd world cesspits like Afghanistan - where the locals tear down what you build as soon as you throw it up for them.
We should concentrate on what armed forces are for - closing with and destrying enemy forces in the field to achieve national objectives.
In Argentinas case this would involve hitting their homeland with TLAM from subs, storm shaddow from tornados, mining their coastal trade routes, bombing affshore platforms, seizing at sea anything flying an Argentine flag or sailing into their waters to trade.
We have the capabilty to do this- we should remind them of it at govt level unsubtly.
If they were to take the islands - they should be ready for a long haul - irredentism can be a 2 way process. They may find holding them for a long term very hard. All we have to do is wait a few years, with an increased defence budget , and give it another go.
In that kind of war they would lose, and they know it. We should remind them of that at govt level too.
158 shb
Jun 08th, 2012 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0Letting the Argies re-invade the Falklands (there are no Malvinas), especially to remain there for 'a few years' is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLEY UNACCEPTABLE.
Any UK government, even the two prats we have now, would be intremendous trouble with the public and be out of office within days by failing a vote of no confidence in the house.
Can you imagine what the Falklanders went through in 1982 and what it would be like 'next' time.
But it will never come to that. Argentina does not have the capacity to overcome just 4 typhoons and most certainly never a Type 45 with what remains of (laughingly) the air force.
We just need to keep watch that some rogue country such as Israel does not start re-arming the bastards: that should trigger a pre-emptive strike (on the mainland) and fcuk the cry-babies around the world.
chrisR
Jun 09th, 2012 - 09:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am merely stating that we need a bit more mental resiliance. We can't rely simply on repelling an invasion - we need to seriously plan for the worst case scenario and to be prepared to fight a protracted conflict.
Failure to do so can lead to disaster -e.g, Dunkirk and Norway 1940, crete and greece 1941, Singapore and Burma 1942.
@160 shb,
Jun 09th, 2012 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Exactly so,
l say, don't underestimate them or the depths of their hatred.
l am convinced that one day, they will try again.
We must be prepared & not complacent.
@160 & 161
Jun 09th, 2012 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Protracted conflict against what, exactly? Air frame fatigued Mirage 3s & 5s that are of more danger to their own pilots, check for yourself how may have died through the airframes breaking up in mid-air. Old 38 Cruise missiles that have NEVER been test fired since the war of 1982? They have no navy to speak about, only a Chief of Staff who sat the '82 war out in a 40' container looking at radar images.
I am not advocating complacency just realising what a chasm exists in the abilities of the UK to decimate the Argie mainland with our existing forces stationed and in the waters around the Falklands (there are no Malvinas) cmpared to the utterley immasculated forces of Argentina.
Unless the Argies suddenley get modern fast jets capable of taking on the Typhoons AND beating them in the air OR masses and masses of current state of the art Cruise missiles plus the air transportation capable of evading the island's radar they have NO chance whatsoever.
That is always surmising the political will to do the job without giving into the bleeding hearts. THAT is where the risk lies, not the armed forces of the UK.
chrisR
Jun 10th, 2012 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0I am well aware of the material state of the Argentine armed forces and the OOBs of both sides - they are easily searchable from books or the internet.
I also share your lack of conviction about the political will to stage a largely independent struggle.
I am equally confident that all things being equal, a typhoon FGR4 will quite happily decimate a flight of Argentine aircraft, provided it gets adequate warning to take off from the RAF reporting stations around the islands.
What I am saying is that war is the arena of chaos- even today. I could give you dozens of examples of weaker forces overcoming stronger ones by good luck, bungling on the part of the stronger side, or good planning.
Our main strength is uncertainty, it works both ways. The Argentines lack the ability to land organised forces on the islands sufficient to GUARANTEE overcoming the garrsion, and their political and domestic support for a war would evaporate if it dragged out and the suffered serious reverses for little gain.
We also have the big advantage of having dedicated intelligence assets in the area - the Argentines are far less likely to achieve the degree of tactical or strategic surprise necessary to achieve success than they did in 1982.
The FAA and Argentine Naval aviation do not pose the threat it did in 82. They are weaker in numbers, most of the AC are worn out and are about 2 generations behind the Typhoons. Defensive systems on our ships are much more advanced than in 1982 as well.
Most of their planes are still equipped with unguided bombs, on the open sea they would be VERY lucky to close on a type 45 to deliver them, no matter how big the strike package.
So I don't see them attempting an invasion at the moment, mainly due to the airpower problem. The time to sit up and take note will be if they do something to seriously upgrade the FAA.
shb @ 163 - I think you're right. Additionally, I speak with Argentines on a practically daily basis, and the great majority of them seem to have a very poor opinion of their own armed forces and would not agree to expanding them. I believe the Falklands are safe from Argentina at present. Small countries not defended by the UK and much closer to Argentina, such as Uruguay and Paraguay, have more to worry about.
Jun 10th, 2012 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0164 ynsere
Jun 10th, 2012 - 05:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0CORRECT!
I am more concerned about some idiot Argie Captain going beserk and attacking 'our' country than them attacking the Falklands (there are STILL no Malivinas).
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