MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Spain warns UN Decolonization Committee not to de-list Gibraltar
Spain made a calm but classic contribution before the United Nations Decolonization Committee (C24) last week defending territorial integrity arguments but also warning the Committee not to de-list Gibraltar without sticking to the current UN criteria. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesThis is subtle. Spain is saying that Gibraltar has no right to self determination under the Treaty of Utrecht - which is true. However the treaty gives sole responsibility over Gibraltar and it's future to the UK.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 07:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Spain is therefore saying the ToU invalidates self determination and the C24 insists the UK and Spain should find a solution by dialogue.
The UK should simply stick to saying we have the right to make the decision and we choose to make that decision based on the wishes of the Gibraltans.
It's all just legal semantics.
Yes, C24 don't take the Basque country off the list... or Catalonia while you're at it.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 08:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0Poor Spain - reduced to this - taking the lead from your most demented offspring.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 08:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0When you have 50% youth unemployment and are on the brink of bankruptcy the sensible policy is to rant about 7 square milometres of land you haven't owned for 300 years.
I assume the begging bowl will be passed to the UK when the next bailout is requested via the IMF. They are currently too ashamed or proud to even call the recent bailout by that name.
Spain pretends that it's African colonies of Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco are part of Spain to avoid their inclusion on the UN colonial list
Jun 19th, 2012 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0The UK put Gibraltar on the UN list but should now simply make Gibraltar part of the UK and remove it from the list.
It's not that simple - Gibraltans don't want to become a county of the UK either. It seems they are happy as they are but would prefer a normal relationship with Spain - as any other part of the EU has.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 09:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0@5,4 There are clear guidelines for what the UN asks in order to be taken off the list. The Gibraltans, Tokelauans and Falklanders have chosen 'free association with another state' and therefore should be taken off the list based upon the UN's own guidelines.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly the C24 doesn't care about what the people of these territories think and have decided to ambush the committee to turn it into a place for despotic states to rant about getting other peoples land... in perpetuity. There will be no end to this nonsense for the next 30 years, and everyone knows it.
I'd expect representatives of the nations to just turn up and say 'Mr Biased Chairman, all I have to say is this committee completely goes against it's own remit with no way of ever possibly being taken off your list.'. Then some country that greedily wants their territory can just rant on about some [s]hi[t]story.
Then in 30 years everyone decides the UN is sh!te and useless.
The C24 is a complete farce.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0We have given money to Spain, but instead it's time for some good old fashioned tit for tat action. This isn't mature but its the only language that many latin countries seem to understand, therefore it is effective.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 10:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ie; In the 1970s-80s Britain agreed to a lot of what Argentina wanted and had lots of negotiations with them. Pity the scummy (then) foreign office ignored the islanders (big mistake).
Result of Britain negotiating=Argentina illegally invades the Islands.
Britain stops talking and boots the Argentines out.
Britain then properly defends the Islands and encourages autonomy of government, helps FI develop their economy and does not talk with Argentina.
Result=no Argentinian invasion (yet) and more freedom for theFalkland Islands.
Perhaps Spain does not appreciate British financial help and would prefer us not to lend them money??
I thought that the idea of the C24 was that it was supposed to encourage the Administering Powers (and Other Claimants) to get the non-self-governing territories into a position where they were off their little list (either by independence, assimilation or free association).
Jun 19th, 2012 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now we have a country that is both an administering power (over Western Sahara) and an other claimant (Gibraltar) encouraging the C24 to not take territories that are askong off of their little list?
I've heard of the concept of Spanish Honour, this is perhaps an example of Spanish Logic?
Spain is funny. It's a pity C24 doesn't have a sense of humour. Here we are in the 21st century with a country trying to claim that it has “rights” under an 18th century treaty. Perhaps Sr Arias hasn't noticed that the right to self-determination antedates the Treaty of Utrecht. But that's medieval Spain, and argieland, for you. If pushed, argies will tell you that their claim to the Falklands goes back to 1493 and a papal bull that split the “New World” between Portugal and Spain. Wonder how the United States and Canada feel about that?
Jun 19th, 2012 - 01:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In my view, Britain should simply declare that, in respect of Spanish claims, the Treaty of Utrecht is null and void. No Spanish “claims” are recognised and nor will any be acceded to.
Spain 'warns', Argentina 'demands'. Such machismo :))
Jun 19th, 2012 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Somebody help me out please. It seems that Ceuta and Melilla on the Moroccan headland are allowed, and are under Spanish administration!
Jun 19th, 2012 - 02:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If this is OK, why can't this be done in the case of the Gibraltar and the Falklands for that matter. It seems odd when you compare the two examples.
And all this stuff about territorial integrity - shouldn't the Canary Islands be part of Morocco??
Blah Blah Blah... The Rock stays British, end of. Go cry with the Argentines and ignore your countries are going down the pan!
Jun 19th, 2012 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 012 v for victory
Jun 19th, 2012 - 03:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Forget Ceuta and Melilla - the recent military intervention on Parsley Island is an even better example of the hypocrisy being displayed by Spain.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jul/18/spain.gilestremlett
It's only managed to remain hilarious because nobody got killed.
Careful Spain, hordes of resentful fundamentalist muslims just across the Mediterranean view their lost province of Al-Andalusia with similar covetousness as the malvinistas view the Falkland Islands. People in glass houses... as we say.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”It may seem hypocritical for Spain to demand the return of Gibraltar while consistently rebuffing similar Moroccan claims in North Africa. Its government insists, however, that the two situations are not the same. Ceuta and Melilla, it argues, are integral parts of Spain, not colonial holdings. Their residents not only possess Spanish citizenship, but vote in Spanish elections, pay Spanish taxes (albeit at a reduced rate), and have all other rights and responsibilities of membership in the national community, as well as the E.U. The position of Gibraltar, the Spanish government maintains, is colonial. As a British Overseas Territory, the peninsula is under British sovereignty yet is not part of the United Kingdom. Gibraltar even has its own currency, the Gibraltar Pound, which is not legal tender in the United Kingdom. The dispute is further complicated by the fact that Spain never formally ceded the isthmus, which remains under British-Gibraltarian control.”
Jun 19th, 2012 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Source: http://geocurrents.info/geopolitics/britain-vs-spain-and-spain-vs-morocco-in-the-strait-of-gibraltar#ixzz1yGA72z2c
Perhaps Britain should just incorperate all the overseas territories just like Spain. Then Spain would have nothing to complain about. :)
Source: http://geocurrents.info/geopolitics/britain-vs-spain-and-spain-vs-morocco-in-the-strait-of-gibraltar#ixzz1yG9Zn9DM
@1
Jun 19th, 2012 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You don't understand the situation of Gibraltar
Under the Treaty of Utretch of 1713, Gibraltar was only meant to be a British military base, that's it. A base with limited extraterritoriality, that's why in Article X of the Treaty,it says:
“ It is understood that this property is to be ceded WITHOUT ANY TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION”!!
Do any of you get that? WITHOUT ANY TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION!
another thing, the base was known up until 1830, as the ” Town and Garrison of Gibraltar IN THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN!!
Do you get that?? IN
17 .. Oh maybe we've made a mistake then? You seem to have found some extra evidence ...Go rumpole
Jun 19th, 2012 - 05:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@17 Under what Treaty were the conquered and stolen colonies of Ceuta, Melilla and Canary Islands handed over to Spain?
Jun 19th, 2012 - 06:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@19
Jun 19th, 2012 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0under what treaty does the Uk has northern ireland?
lets make a deal, is none of spain's business to mention N.ireland, so is not Uk business to mention c&m and canarias, ok?
ceuta and melilla are a continuation of christian reconquista, something that even England supported , ok? The moors from north africa were the ones that invaded spain , ok? so spain had and still has the right to protect herself from moor invaders.
gibraltar on the other hand, was a bunch of thugs taking advantage of a civil war to seize a strategic waterway.
where was king carlos 2 right to choose who would succed him to become king of spain, huh?
@ andean 4000
Jun 19th, 2012 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes everybody has a past - the UK, Spain, Morroco - the World.
The current population of Gibraltar are what matter in 2012. They have made their position clear.
The small land mass is of no real benefit to Spain and apart from the current PM most people I know here have no interest whatsoever in gaining Gibraltar.
What I struggle with, is ... it's a rock. It's a rock covered with people who are relaxing and chillaxing and enjoying being Gibraltan. They're causing no harm to anyone, and they have a relatively tiny amount of sea that is theirs.
Jun 19th, 2012 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Spain is FF****F*F*F*F*FKING ANNNGRRYYY about this tiny place having a tiny bit of sea, and it's going to do anything it can to stop them having a nice time and FUUUUC***CKCKINGGG RUINNNN THEMM.
Like seriously, do they have a pathological condition these spanish speakers [Bolivia, Argentina, Spain]?
“under what treaty does the Uk has northern ireland? ”
Jun 19th, 2012 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The people of N.Ireland wished to remain British, as do the Falklanders and the people from the rock.
“Under the Treaty of Utretch of 1713, Gibraltar was only meant to be a British military base, that's it”
This is a complete and utter lie. Not one single part of that is even true or mentioned in the treaty. The rock did not become a military base until 1854, The Treaty of Utrecht was signed in 1713.
I wonder what your position on Spain's overseas citys who mostly do not even wish to be Spanish and are claimed by other nations? Why does Spain automatically have these citys while we can not, in your view?
Gibraltar
Jun 19th, 2012 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Royal Navy warship, HMS Diamond is currently in the port Gibraltar
On her maiden operational deployment.
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=25167
TORNADOS ARRIVE ON THE ROCK
Eight RAF Tornado aircraft from IX(B) Squadron and 31 Squadron,
will be arriving in Gibraltar on June 22
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=25167
[Don’t panic espania , its just training,]
[20]
your living in the wrong century .
@17
Jun 20th, 2012 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ok Andean, how do you explain the Spanish hanging on to the Portuguese territory of Olivenza?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Olivenza
I think the Spanish are a bit hypocritical, given Ceuta, Melilla, canaries and olivenza
I think the Spanish are a bit hypocritical, given they disrespect the Chagossians' self-determination rights at the same time they demand Argentina observe the F. Islanders'.
Jun 20th, 2012 - 02:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0@17 good question
Jun 20th, 2012 - 03:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0I haven't studied the Olivenza case in detail, so I can't really comment on that. Olivenza is something that goes way back to the 1297. Portugal took over the territory from the then Kingdom of Castille in the Treaty of Alcañizes of 1297, and then Spain took it back during Napoleon times.
Portugal does not have a claim on Olivenza, they just don't recognize Spanish sovereignty over it, the SAME that Spain does not recognize Portuguese sovereignty around the SALVAJE ISLANDS in the Atlantic Ocean(just north of the Canaries). Spain accused Portugal of taking advantage of the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's the steal the islands.
So,in a sense, Spain and Portugal are “ even out”, but in my view, Spain and Portugal being neighbors with a long history in common, they can figure out their differences respecting these two territories ( Olivenza and Salvaje Islands).
Ceuta and Melilla ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT, you have to look at the historical context here.
Before the pirate Rooke (note, many British historians themselves say that what Rooke did in Gibraltar was an act of piracy) seized Gibraltar in 1704, Spain was the sole Gate keeper of the Western Mediterranean, Moorish pirates would raid the coasts of Andalucia and capture any “Kaffirs ”(infidels, as they called non-muslims) and sell them as slaves. They also attacked any Christian ships (Spanish, Maltese, Italian,etc) ,looted and sell the entire tripulation as slaves ( if you were a non-believer, by their law, they can sell you as a slave).
So Spain set up these outspost to watch out against this menace (also the Ottoman Empire), one in Melilla, then one in Oran(present day Algeria) and another in Tripoli(present day Libia), but the Ottoman seized these last two I think.
Anyways, people that to look at the historical contexts of things,C&M served (and still do) a legitimate purpose not only the REST of Spain but for all Mediterranean Christendom basically.
Ceuta and Melilla have large and growing muslim populations. Would Spain respect a democratic vote for unity with Morocco, or would it (as usual) reject self-determination?
Jun 20th, 2012 - 07:37 am - Link - Report abuse 0@17 Spains deludes iteself about it's African colonies
Jun 20th, 2012 - 08:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ceuta was part of the Kingdom of Fez (now Morocco) when is was invaded and stolen by Portugal in 1415, and was later siezed by Spain.
Melilla was part of the Kingdom of Fez (now Morocco) when it was invaded and stolen by Spain in 1497.
There were no treaties authorising the theft of these African colonies.
Spain should return these colonies to their rightful owners Morocco before a muslim jihad takes them.
”Ceuta and Melilla have large and growing muslim populations. Would Spain respect a democratic vote for unity with Morocco, or would it (as usual) reject self-determination?”
Jun 20th, 2012 - 09:36 am - Link - Report abuse 0Ofcourse they would. You can see the basic Spanish mentality from andean there. History is by far more important than human rights in his eyes. The Spanish government also views it this way.
The hilarious thing is, Spain LEGALLY gave up the rock. It's even more funny than Argentinas claim on south Georgia.
@27
Jun 20th, 2012 - 11:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0So, a country takes a bite out of the territory of another country, and then in a position of power gets a treaty that confirms sovereignty of said territory - although it is later claimed by the original owners of said territory that the treaty incorrect.
You can apply the above scenario to either Olivença, or Gibralter. Therefore for Spain to protest about the UK, when they have their own territorial dispute, not only with Morrocco with over the enclaves they retain there, but also with Portugal over Olivença is a little like the pot calling the kettle black - or to use a spanish turn or phrase - the donkey is talking about ears.
But this is the whole problem with the Gibraltar situation, Falklands situation etc. The latin mentality of “Patria” is the issue. Spain desperately clings on to the regions that don't want to be part of Spain - País Vasco, Cataluña and both Spain and Argentina are unwilling to accept self determination of people that live in a territory that they claim - when the UK, without this mentality is ready to give a free vote to the Scots for their independence if they so will. It's called democracy - but there again, countries that are relatively speaking very young democracies (and that is a stretch of the definition in Argentina) are not able to to this with their own regions or territorial claims.
So the question is - how far back in history do we need to go to redraw the borders? Maybe Spain and Argentina should look in the direction of somewhere like Hungary, or indeed Germany that lost large areas of territory after WW2, and you don't hear them continually bleating about it.
Time for our latin friends to grow up a bit.
Spain and CFK are wrong,
Jun 20th, 2012 - 11:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0And they both know it
They are looking for a distraction, and who is the target [again]
The British,
Always the British,
In fact, because they scrooge up there own country, and are corrupt, and incompetent to run there own affairs,
They blame the British,
They are just envy and jealous of us,
Bitter and hateful,
But hey,
As long as the brits get the blame, everything is ok.
@17 What it was MEANT to be is irrelevant. Unless you have a direct link into the mind of Philip V of Spain (deceased). Might be worth remembering that, despite the treaty and later treaties signed in Seville and Paris, Spain laid siege to Gibraltar THREE times. Shows the mentality of Latins.
Jun 20th, 2012 - 09:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@20 The Acts of Union 1800 and the Anglo-Irish Treaty 1922. “A strategic waterway”? It's a Rock!
I think spain needs to bugger off and be quiet for a while especially as a possible bail out is coming to them.
Jun 22nd, 2012 - 01:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Commenting for this story is now closed.
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