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Brazil reminds Paraguay that Itaipu power is jointly shared and managed

Friday, August 10th 2012 - 07:49 UTC
Full article 39 comments

Brazil reminded Paraguay it can use the power it needs from the giant Itaipu hydro but there is a contract which regulates how to manage the surplus. A day earlier president Federico Franco said that Paraguay would not “yield” any more electricity to Brazil. Read full article

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  • A.J.Rimmer

    How can Brazil preach about treaties and agreements, when they broke the rules and binding regulations of Mercosur?

    Good on Paraguay I say, while they are at it, they should stop all electricity going to Argentina. Play them at there own game.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 08:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    Meanwhile Brazilian Troops going down to Paraguay border...

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 09:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ken Ridge

    @2 “Meanwhile Brazilian Troops going down to Paraguay border...”

    South America, a continent of peacefull nations eh?
    Just admit you are a continent of squabbling children, always have been and always will be.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    Lugo got a good price for Paraguay for this energy, now Franco is making a principle out of keeping 90% of it unused, what a nasty bit of dirt he is!

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Captain Poppy

    Seems to me that a sovereign nation can do as a sovereign nation pleases. 1975 prices cannot go on forever. Besides when Brazil pissed on Paraguay and suspended them, did they think something would not bite them in the ass. For every action there is a equal reaction.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • windy

    @4 Well said

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    Brazil needs to accept that it cannot enforce an “agreement” when it has already breached one itself. “mercosur” is now an illegitimate organisation. I am now demanding, via my MP and the British government, that the EU exits all “negotiations” with this illegitimate organisation. Whatever happens, NOTHING South American will be purchased by me. How could any honest state deal with such corrupt criminals?

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 02:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    @3
    “Just admit you are a continent of squabbling children, always have been and always will be.” - and here we have a childish statement aimed at starting a childish squabble.
    @4
    And if Franco manages to negotiate a better price will that not be good for Paraguay?
    @7
    Does that include all the good honest Chilean copper that is in most every piece of electrical and electronic equipment you own?

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @8 Are you honestly “declaring” Chilean copper? Don't think so. There is “good” and there is “bad”. For so long as Chile supports argturds, everything Chilean is “bad”. And, if I can identify it, I won't buy it. The “friend” of my enemy is my enemy. Chile is now my enemy. Can you bring yourself to be honest and declare items as “Produce of Chile”?

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 03:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Fred

    Guys, you have fights so many times. Paraguay can't do what he aims to do just like Mercosul (not Brazil alone) couldn't has done what it did.

    The great difference is that if Paraguay doesn't cede his part of the Itaipu power it will lose most of its income. Franco's statement was propably made only to give an answer to Paraguayan people to what happened in Mercosur.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 04:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    The paraguayan turbines provide 11% of Brazils electricity and the price they still pay is still way below current prices. Paraguay is committed to sell the excess current they produce to Brazil, but if they dont produceit? What then? Perhaaps we may see Paraguay closing down two of their turbines for “technical reasons and routine maintenance?” And maybe another two on the Ycerita

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 05:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Fred

    @ 11 redpoll: This is not possible. Itaipu is runned by supervisory and executive boards compound by the same number of positions for Brazilians and Paraguayans.

    ”The governments of Brazil and Paraguay are responsible for appointing the Itaipu Binacional Executive Board of Directors through Eletrobrás or the Administración Nacional de Electricidad (Ande). Each position allotted to a country has its counterpart on the opposite river bank.

    In addition to the Executive Board of Directors, Itaipu has a Supervisory Board made up of twelve members, six from Brazil and six from Paraguay, and one representative from each country's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.”

    http://www.itaipu.gov.br/en/company/supervisory-board-and-executive-board-directors

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    @12 Thats fine Fred but we have had experience of these binacional boards just recently such as CARP on the dregding of the River Plate channels and CARU on pollution of the Uruguay River. If one side wants to drag out negotiations interminably as in these two instances they will do so

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 06:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    @9
    We sell our glorious red metal to China, India, US, EU, Japan, and pretty much everyone. Those who buy it know where it has come from. Seeing as you can’t identify it once it is in a finished product, perhaps you could apply a statistical approach and just bin 25% of all your electro-domestic goods, power tools and car circuitry.

    Alternatively you could extend your “The friend of my enemy is my enemy” philosophy thus: we are friends with China, India, US, EU and Japan; as we are your enemy, the afore mentioned countries are also your enemies. Therefore buy no products from them.

    You should also write to your MP and demand that no enemy steel, copper, aluminium or titanium be used in the construction of your new aircraft carriers.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    paraguay can offer its electricity at the same price it sells to brazil to private industry. That will attract new industry and greatly benefit its population.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 06:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    14 Condorito
    “Those who buy it know where it has come from. Seeing as you can’t identify it once it is in a finished product, perhaps you could apply a statistical approach and just bin 25% of all your electro-domestic goods, power tools and car circuitry.”

    Not too sure about this as a matter of fact.

    Isotopic examination of copper identifies trace elements which can point to the area of production (by the inclusion of) or confirm where it was not produced (by the exclusion of).

    Depending on your coppers' isotopic analysis hangs the veracity of your statement. :o)

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 07:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Condorito

    Chris,
    Is it practicle to carry out such an isotopic examination when shopping for a new PC in PC World?

    If so that would be a 3rd alternative to help Conqueror avoid consuming “enemy” copper.

    ...does the isotopic examination device itself contain copper? Oh well, back to the statistical approach ;)

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 08:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    @15 Bamf Yep . At the price Paraguay sells electricity to Brazil an aluminum smelter would be an attractive proposition to an international smelting company, but does Paraguay have the ore to produce it? If it doesnt you can be sure as God made little apples that the bums in BA would make an excuse to forbid its import via the Parana river

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 08:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    Most likely the aluminum smelter will open up in Paraguay. But even that won't consume all of the excess energy Paraguay has. Lots of industry from both Argentina and Brazil can move into Paraguay as the cost of labor, electricity, regulation, taxes, are all much better in Paraguay than the neighboring countries. Already many companies are moving into Paraguay for this reason and I'm sure more will in the near future.

    Aug 10th, 2012 - 11:42 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • juliano

    the funny thing is to see the British and Americans commenting on matters that are not in your account. you guys come talk to us like you just had any moral authority to do so. remember, you guys are bigger crooks in the world.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 03:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Ottona

    In 2008 Lula in Brazil collaborated with Lugo and raised the annual payment from Brazil to Paraguay, for the share electricity of Paraguay which is bought by Brazil - from $120 million to $ 340 million. Lula was severely critizised by Brazil's nationalists for this collaboration with the government of Lugo in Paraguay. ----The fact is: Paraguay does not have the transmission capacity to use most of its share of Itaipu electricity - and it would take 5 to 10 years for build the necessary transmission capacity and the facility for aluminium production! And thus far - no bauxite is known to exist in the required quantity in Paraguay. You can't make aluminum out of air and hot wind - even the that genius Franco who now pretends to govern Paraguay knows that! In the meantime: No Paraguay will not take its case against the MERCOSUR exclusion to the International Court in The Hague: It takes 7 to 10 years for a case like that and the costs for the legal preparations are prohibitive.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 05:39 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Frank

    @20 speaking as one who is neither British or American I would point out that in a free society one can comment on anything at all if one so chooses..... a novel concept for you I am sure.....

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 09:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • ChrisR

    Condorito.

    Please do not get your feathers ruffled with me, but you made a statement that cannot be supported by the evidence.

    I thought the argument was about boycotting Chilean products, copper being an example.

    Never forget the power of the consumer in western society. If enough people force the issue, companies like PC World, John Lewis, Tesco, Sainsbury's, etc. fearful of losing market share WILL ban whatever they want to ban and enforce their suppliers to ban their suppliers, etc. The use of whatever test equipment that gives the answer is a given, even if they have to use test labs for the service. :o)

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 12:17 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • juliano

    I think you have problems other euro zone, to worry about the problems of others. or I am wrong?

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 12:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    #21 Large companies can make their own transmission line investments if they have a contract selling them electricity at the same price that Brazil currently purchases it at (Several people here in Paraguay already have build their own sub-stations and transmission lines - the government isn't the only one that can build infrastructure). As for the bauxite you speak of, it can be imported from Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina, etc; electricity is the single largest cost of producing aluminum and not the actual ore. Plus that is only one of thousands of industry that utilizes extreme amounts of energy. In summary, cheap electricity, one of the lowest taxes in the world, low regulations, will continue to attract industry to Paraguay.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 02:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Conqueror

    @14 Not a bad idea. I think I'll do that. We need to do our best to cripple any and every enemy country.
    @19 Can you “remember” who has attacked you? Why are you letting your “attackers” establish industries in your country?
    @20 Fortunately, we can point at thousands of examples to show that Britain and America has morals. Whilst South America has NONE! Gab but no substance! With a few individual exceptions.
    @21 And when the U.S.A. or the U.K. decides to assist Paraguay with funding?
    @24 Fortunately, WE in Britain are not in the eurozone. In the relatively near future, we may no longer be in the EU. After that, you can poison anyone in the EU you like. Start with France. Then Spain. Then Italy. Then all the eastern European states.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 05:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • jerry

    @ 25 - No big deal, but I believe that you will find that these South American countries, except Brazil, do not have any bauxite deposits large enough to possibly export to Paraguay. Most of the SA bauxite comes from the Guinas. Argentina produces aluminum, but its bauxite is imported, not locally mined.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 06:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    #7 “And if Franco manages to negotiate a better price will that not be good for Paraguay?”

    Sure, but thats not what he's doing is it?

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    #26 - Businessmen that leave Brazil and Argentina to establish industry in Paraguay are not our attackers; the government of those countries are. Those same governments are attacking and doing more harm to their own businessmen than to Paraguay, thus you will see many businessmen move to Paraguay. Governments are the demise of productive people and societies. We all saw what happened to the industrialized, rich country of Argentina when the socialists arrived. Venezuela, Zimbabwe, are other classic examples. France, Italy, Spain, Greece, and several other European countries are going through the pains of socialism as well. The human talent and the money it produces will not remain in a socialist country, it will move on to greener and better pastures. Paraguay is an interesting choice and it welcomes people from any country, even if the government of those countries do “attack” Paraguay.

    #27 - Paraguay, such as Argentina can import the bauxite if it must. Or it can use the energy to process the largest deposit in the world of titanium, located in Paraguay. It really doesn't matter what industry uses the electricity, just as long as they use it.

    Aug 11th, 2012 - 10:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    @BAMF Paraguay

    I guess you have no idea of what are you talking about.
    Have you ever seen countries like Norway, Sweden, etc. always in the top of every ranking for human development and standards of living?

    Well they are socialist.

    Have you ever heard about the second bigger economy in the world called China that will surpass USA in the next 5 years?

    Well they implemented “Socialist market economy”

    Do you know the dominating economy power in Europe called Germany?

    Well Germany implemented Social market economy since WWII.

    I’m not socialist but necons and greedy bankester are ruining the world.

    So better a wealthy socialist than a poor neocon living on food stamp or unemployment benefit.

    Aug 12th, 2012 - 04:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • British_Kirchnerist

    #30 “So better a wealthy socialist than a poor neocon living on food stamp or unemployment benefit”

    Brilliant Danny =)

    Aug 12th, 2012 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    @British_Kirchnerist

    You welcome, sad but I it seems I went from liberal to socialist.
    ha ha

    Aug 12th, 2012 - 04:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    @ Dany - I agree that neocon living on food stamps or employment benefits isn't what we want for a society. The reason that those people are in that situation, however, is where we disagree. Liberal or socialist governments have created these safety nets to help out when things go wrong. Things go wrong when neocons, liberals, dictators, governments in general, create regulations and laws that allow for the creation of monopolistic industries, or industry that is able live like a parasite off of the state; this is what many people call capitalism, yet has nothing to do with capitalism. Large governments, doesn't matter what party they are from, are powerful governments, and they will sooner or later abuse the powers they have. Corruption only occurs because the government has the power to be corrupted. Abuse of power can be seen in the war against drugs, wars in general, green energy like Solyndra, real estate bubble, etc. Those are not cases of capitalism even though the media has labeled it as such.

    Yes, countries like Norway and Sweeden live a high quality of life and can be attributed to a good government. This type of socialism can and does work in some situations, however, more often it creates corruption and thus the abuse of power.

    I just want the government out of business and to concern itself with providing a good quality judicial system that protects people's properties and life.

    Aug 13th, 2012 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    BAMF While I would agree with you on many points, the judiary should always divorced from the xecutive and political power. Ok Parliament votes the laws but it is the judiciary which should apply them dispassionately,without fear or favour. But the main service a govt has to provide is basic education. And its not just about teaching kids the basic rudiments of maths or reading skills, its about teaching them to use thier interlect to THINK. If education becomes politised and political mantras are drummed into kids heads,they lose thier power of thought. Doesnt matter if thier ideas are later left or right wing- its thier decision.

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 01:32 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    Red - The problem is that public education will always be manipulated by the ruling party to further push the general population to favor their ideas, be it right or wrong, good or bad. Not to mention that corruption, or miss allocation of resources, is always common with public education and most if not all government projects. Private schools, even those that are non profit, will always be held accountable by the forces of the market. While government schools can just receive more tax money even when they commit the worse mistakes. Poorly managed schools should go out of business, but government schools stay open, providing crappier education and sucking money out of private hands that could have donated it. So the best option is to promote good quality education by taking the government monopoly out of the picture. Not saying do it from one year to the next but simply start phasing out the public education. Give people their tax money back, such as vouchers, and let them decide where their children should go to school. Good schools will remain, new ones will open. As for the “poor” that can't afford it...there are plenty of non-profit schools that will take them in. There will be more after the government schools allow them to come into the market. Churches, charities, family, friends, neighbors, etc. etc. , can handle the poor children's education much better than governments are handling.

    As for the seperation of power, that is exactly how it needs to be. The judicial branch should be highly critized but should be able to work, as you stated, without fear or favor.

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 04:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DanyBerger

    @ redpoll & BAMF Paraguay

    You have not idea of what are you talking about because you are more indoctrinate than the whole “La Campora and the tea party” together.

    “Private schools, even those that are non profit, will always be held accountable by the forces of the market. ”

    Give me a School to me and I will care a shit to what the kids learn meanwhile I make huge profit$$$$$$.
    Do you want to learn how good was Videla/Pinochet or Stroessner? Don’t worry if you pay me I will give Videla/Pinochet/ Stroessner 24/7. How cares about maths?

    Do you want to promote catholic faith to your kids?

    No problem I will hire the cheapest priest available out of town and if he has criminal record of paedophilia much better because I will pay him even less.
    Here I have some candidates for the job. http://www.adalagoas.com.br/noticias/?vCod=2808

    But I will demand just only fashionable uniforms in green preferred with grey trousers for kids and grey skirts for girl and cups for boys, Rugby and Jockey would be main sports. Because appearance is all in these kind of business. AH! and do not send your kids to my school with huge amount of cash because I will puts a expansive kiosk there and I will sell souvenirs.

    medals in Gold, Silver, and Bronze to the end of the courses (of course pay it by you) to the kids with more generous fathers that contribute to enhance my School’s facilities.

    I’m just reserving to classrooms with your names guys “redpoll” & “BAMF Paraguay” for a fair amount of $$.

    After all sure you would like to presume to that lazies poor and good for nothing communists how good fathers you are contributing so much to my private and exclusive School.

    I was also thinking in the name too “Saint Berger Schule”. Sounds very posh and exclusive. isn’t it?

    2k Dollar per kid (basic feed) and 3k with some features.

    If you think is too much you sure are one of these poor communist that want all for free.

    Vacancies already available if you pay in advance of course.

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    Bamf. While I would agree with many of your points there has to be government run basic education system as a safety net. Dont forget that many folk who live in the cantegriles would much rather thier kids went out begging on the street than send them to school and so deny thier kids any chance of bettering themselves. So I think education should be compulsory up to age 14 and thier attendance should be directly related to the payment of family allowances to the parents
    As to idealogy I am not anti-clerical but didnt the Jesuits have a monopoly of education in your country for many Years?

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • BAMF Paraguay

    Dany - Your school sounds like it sucks and would go out of business fairly quickly. If you can't provide a good product, education in the case of a school, it will go bankrupt. The same should happen to government schools; either they provide a good service or their clients will choose a better education elsewhere.

    Red - I hate to say it, but sometimes education, even for children, is a luxury. It will always come second to food, water, and housing, your basic necessities to survive. Many people I know, including my mother, had to forgo education to ensure that food was available and there was a place to sleep come night time. But most like my mom know the importance of education and when I grew up she did everything she could to ensure that I could go to school. More important than to providing government education is providing opportunities for jobs, and that is done by creating an environment where business wants to install industry, etc. (low taxes, good infrastructure, good judicial system, low regulation, qualified/educated labor). Once people have the opportunity (money) to send their children to a good private school they will do so because most recognize that private schools provide quality education. By giving parents vouchers, more poor children will get the quality education offered by private schools. Government schools that are well managed will remain in business and be encouraged to continue to improve and the government schools that are poorly managed will see their enrollment decrease to the point they will have to close down.

    It isn't a perfect system, but it is much better than giving the government the power to decide how, when, where, our children are educated. It is very dangerous to allow such power to be in the hands 0f any group; take Hitler's use of the government education to indoctrinate Germany's youth.

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 06:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • redpoll

    @36 Dumburgher Why dont you read the arguments before sounding off? If you had you will see I have basic discrepancies with BAMF.What are you?One of those kids who have “Las Malvinas son argentinas” branded into your brain from the age of four?

    Aug 14th, 2012 - 08:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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