MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil donates Argentina Malvinas Spanish charts dating back to 1770
Four certified charts of the Falklands/Malvinas Islands dating back to the XVIII century and belonging to the Pedro de Angelis collection of Brasilia’s National Library were given by the Brazilian Foreign ministry to the argentine delegation currently holding a bilateral meeting in the country’s capital. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesScrape, scrape, scrape, soon there will be no bottom left in the barrel!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 06:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0Maybe the referendum next year should also include the option to become part of Uruguay?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 06:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Idlehands @ 2
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0From a historical point of view, this would seem to be the case. However, I would advise the islanders not to vote for this third option because Uruguay is not interested in trying to gain control of British territory.
@3 You would deny them the right to self determination, then. Very brave of you; expect to be slated for putting the interests of States above the wishes of the people .
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0Does Argentina appear on that map? No, because Argentina didn't exist in 1770. Most of that region was still occupied by its original inhabitants, before they were slaughtered and dispossessed of their lands. Perhaps we should donate to Argentina a copy of Richard Hawkins' map of the Falklands he landed on and named 'Maidenland' for Queen Elizabeth I which dates back to 1594.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0All this does is confirm that we settled the islands before them, and that Spain used force to kick out the settlement.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:17 am - Link - Report abuse 0In other words the whole Argentine claim is based on the dispossession of people who were there before them and the enforced occupation of their land.
Nothing has changed since then.
There are also maps from the 16th and 17th centuries made by the British showing the islands, so what does all this exactly prove? If I draw your house before you buy it does that mean I can have it? What a crock of sh+++
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Perhaps we should donate to Argentina a copy of Richard Hawkins' map of the Falklands he landed on and named 'Maidenland' for Queen Elizabeth I which dates back to 1594.”
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0Love it!!
Pity that Brazil has to descend to this level: no one is fooled except the ignorant.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0Loveeelyyyyyy! There are much older maps of maps showing the islands dating back prior to 1594. I saw one in an Istambul museum.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's a great new concept - if you draw it you own it. I wonder when I can cash in my childhood doodles of spaceships and Ferraris? They'd better look better in real life than on paper.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~23977~870022:A-chart-of-Hawkins-s-Maidenland,-di
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0Yes, sir, that's our baby. Can we send this to them with an effing ribbon wrapped around it?
@11 yep, in fact I've just seen a lady outside I quite fancy so I've just drawn her t'ts on my sketchbook and now I own them. I love this new law!
@11 Idlehands (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:13 am
Except that Argentina didn't draw it, they couldn't because Argentina didn't exist in 1770, Brazil didn't draw it either, Spain did and they have recognised British sovereignty of the islands since then and has been said, there are even older British maps. How does this one change anything?
I have a map of Scotland on my study wall. If I give it to the government and they give it to Norway, does Scotland then belong to Japan? Is this LATAM logic?
LATAM logic?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0A contradiction in terms, surely?
Doveoverdover @ 4
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:47 am - Link - Report abuse 0We seem to be at crosspurposes here. Perhaps you didn't read the post before mine. Why on earth would Uruguay attempt to deny the Falklanders their independence if they vote for it? As far as I know Uruguay has never done anything of the sort, regarding the Falklanders or anyone else. We have supported the independence of nations as diverse as Israel and Gaza. However, personally, I feel the present status quo is preferable for the islanders. Argentina will not invade if there is the slightest possibility of big bad Brits in the vicinity. If the Falklands become independent and don't have British military protection, they'll be even worse treated than Paraguay. Remember ... the Argentines aren't brave ... but they're too bloody near!
@15 that's why the only option is for the Falklands to go the independence route and lease mount pleasant to the UK, forming a mutual defence pact as well. It's the only way to shut them up.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:52 am - Link - Report abuse 0Whoever drew that map must have been pissed.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:53 am - Link - Report abuse 04 Doveupthingy
Self determination rules baby, Ynsere was merely offering advice not trying to impose anything unacceptable like you Argentinian peeps.
“the map dated 1770 is intimately linked to the Spanish expedition which that year was sent to expulse the British'
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0... simply illustrates that the British were already there!
A map from 1770, positively new compared old british maps. this spanish map looks to me to be A4 sized too!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0@10 Proarg,
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0ln an lstanbul museum there is a map by a Turkish Admiral, Piri Reis, of the South American mainland.
The map was made in 1513 but is thought to be copied from much older maps.
Does Argentina therefore belong to Turkey?
lf so, when do you intend handing it over to them? soon?
Loveeelyyyyyy, indeed. l'm sure the Turks will be delighted that Argentina respects the validity of these old maps.
ldiota.
and? am i missing something? Argentina wasnt even spawned at the date on the map? how does this beat SELF DETERMINATION?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0however nice to see Brazils real agenda fall flat on its face.
Nice gesture of Brasil.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:18 am - Link - Report abuse 0@22 “nice gesture” sure was, but useless to Argtards what does it prove?, that spaniards could draw in the 1700s? or the fact that spaniards recognized The Falklands as British territory? is it true an englishman drawn the same map 200 YEARS beforehand? can it be? :)))) (Argtards you are priceless)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0i suppose it would make a good coloring page to be circulated to argentine schools, in no way used as La campora brainwashing of children as that would be cruel in a modern democratic world , wouldnt it?
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
SELF DETERMINATION!! (for whoever it irritates) :)
Just as well that the British owned the islands from 1765
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0Lord Shackleton Warned me of the strength of anti-Argentine feeling among islanders. Comments above show it is still alive and able to spout usual inaccuracies. Islands held Shackleton are only viable if integrated to South America. 30 years have gone by but islanders still loath to acknowledge they are not an offshore island such as the Isle of Wight. Islanders will have to learn given the UK's dire straights that the 1982-2012 period was nothing but a dream. Wake up!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0The usual propaganda campaign this is. Total ignorance I think. The lengths some will go to asert their authority. The hard fact of life is that The Falkland Islands are British will remain British and was discovered first by Captain John Davis in 1592 some 200 years before this map even existed. What next will be dreamed up to try and claim our home.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:55 am - Link - Report abuse 0It appears that most of the Latin Americans are still in their nappies and dummy spitting, but hey what does one expect from such people. They are clearly all bieng controlled by the same rigime that is trying to take our country from us Argentina. Now would be a good time for those so called peace loving countries of South America to stand up and show the world that they truly represent democracy or do nothingbut shout and be like the bullies that Argentina is. Good morning Falkland Islanders British and very proud
@25
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse 0please translate
@25
Aug 29th, 2012 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Has somebody towed the Isle of Wight 400 miles out into the Atlantic?
@25 Guillermo Makin (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 12:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:53 am
Which Lord Shacklton do you refer to?
Anti Argentine feeling in the FI are a direct result of anti UK/FI actions over the last 30 years including a deadly conflict started by an Argentine invasion. Did Lord Shacklton tell you about that?
They are viable as they are and will be even more viable as they develop into the free and independent nation that they are likely to be eventually.
FI are awake and ready, what are going to do about it? Brazil are only goading Argentina into getting their fingers burnt again. The weaker Argentia are through their own bloody minded stupidity then the stronger and more stable her neighbours are. IF and only if Brazil and the rest of Mercosur really are planning a war over the Falkland islands they will loose and loose badly. All of the hard work Brazil has put into her economy will be for nothing. Their economy is only fifth in the world as long as they don't do something stupid to ruin it all and end up like Argentina. Don't forget that Britains allies will only stay out of this argument if Argentinas allies also stay out of it as well.
It's just another exercise in not learning anything.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 12:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Prior to 1982, and as the Shackleton report stated, there was a pragmatic case for closer links between Argentina and the islands. The 1982 invasion has now made this politically impossible; no British government can cede to Argentine pressure and expect to survive, even if one wanted to.
Nonetheless the Malvinista belief persists that a return to the status que ante is possible, as if nothing had happened. You just have to accept for this that the 1982 invasions was a minor aberration, no big deal really compared to 18th century events, and all somebody else's fault anyway.
@25
Aug 29th, 2012 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“and able to spout usual inaccuracies”
To which innacurracies exactly do you refer? Just stating 'innacurracies' is a bullshit statement-it means nothing. Unless you list these 'innacuracies' and explain WHY they are so,no-one will know what you mean.
“only viable if integrated to South America”
Since the 1982 war, when the UK has woken up its responsibilities to help the Islanders, FI HAS become viable, though Guillermo, you have clearly failed to notice how the Falkland Islands have been radically transformed, financially, socially and politically.
“Islanders will have to learn given the UK's dire straights ”
I suggest you wake up out of your 30 year sleep as the UK is much better off financially than Argentina. That's why it has a AAA credit rating and Argentina's is far inferior. Therefore Britain is a more reliable trading partner for the Falkland |Islands than Argentina (though Chile are also great).
“the 1982-2012 period was nothing but a dream”
The transformation of the Falkland Islands from a 'just-heads-above-the-water neglected colony” to Islands progressing to independence in the future (should the people there choose this ), is not a dream so I suggest you set your alarm clock, che and wake up from fairyland into the land of the living.
It is a fact, and one you can ignore or live with as you choose, but you need to understand there is no turning back to pre-1982.
Since Argentina does not want links with the FIG (who may I remind you, are democratically voted in by the people that live there), the Islanders are consequently FORCED by Argentina into even closer links with the UK, and Chile who are benefitting financially whereas Argentina are losing out.
Banning Falkland Islands ships from South American ports, means the South Americans do not want the FI as part of SA, but the Islanders will progress, with, or without the help of South America.
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158291: And yet a British government is going to cede to Argentinian pressure and it will return Las Malvinas with, at the very least, the weary support of the people of the UK.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 01:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 032 Hepatia - Are you one of those that believes that if you say something often enough it somehow becomes true?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 01:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Brazil basically winding the RG's up.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 01:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@32 - the issue of the Falklands doesnt make the inside pages of the newspapers or take up any airtime on TV. no one in this country are weary of the Falklands issue because they never hear of it. The Falklands are British and will remain so. We know that things arent good in RG Land right now.
If the RG's take military action it is yet another war that we would win. give it up. you'll never get the islands. It just wont happen for you.
32 Hepatia : and how is this miraculous transformation going to come about?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0#23 pirate love dream, dream....the queen are aged...and later? ...chunckle, chunckle......good bye pirate love !!!!!!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@26. The islands were not discovered by Davis. They were discovered just about 70 years before by spanish or portuguese sailors. Nobody knows really who was, but it was for sure someone working for the spanish crown. There are lots of maps befor 1592.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0British say that it was Davis, but this is what they say, just biased story.
I would recommend you to learn not only british biased history.
@29. You talk about an “independent country”. Sorry, but I have never seen a country with 3000 fundamentalists in a territory under dispute.
@31. The actual FI economy is based in fisheries. Fisheries have a limit. Oil is not supposed to be found in large quantities, so I think that it is a dream to become a “nation” since the economy will not support a domographic boom neccesary to built a nation. So you will always depend on the UK, the way you depend on UK to support the big MP garrison.
The conclusion is that the actual situation is not sustainable in long term.
I think most of the posters have missed the subtlety of UKs return gesture of handing the Brazilians a copy of the Southern Star. This newspaper, the first in South America and printed in English and Spanish. It contains some interesting concepts on freedom of the press and liberty. Might I suggest that Mercopress publishes a copy on this site?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@37
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It makes no difference, today, who discovered the islands in the 16th century.
Fisheries have a limit if you are irresponsible enough to exhaust them. It seems unlikely that Argentina's current attempt in this area will succeed.
One may also wonder whether a cause as artificial, ignoble, and unfounded as the Malvinista one is sustainable in the long term. Pretty much everybody else has allowed the relics of the 1930s to die away. Why not Argentina too?
@39
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ok about who discovered the islands.
But I not agree that the argentine cause is artificial, ignoble and unfounded.
Be honest and recognize that both countries have rights.
37 deutscher (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:01 pm
Your first point is vague and lame both at the same time. “nobody knows who it was but they were 'for sure' working for the Spanish”? Well that settles it then I suppose. Without facts you have no argument, must try harder, a lot harder.
Your second point. lets just put aside the moronic childish fundamentalist remark because it's just prissey and pathetic. 3000? 300? 30? 3? The number means nothing because the islands have never belonged to Argentina and never will. They could be uninhabited but if the UK government had no plan to hand them over they have no obligation to do so. If they want to fight to defend them they have that right also.
Less than 200 years ago there were less than 30 people on the islands. 200 years from now at the same rate that will be well over 300,000 if you care to do the maths. With inward investment and development that could be more than double and even if it remains 3000 for the next 200 years it is not for you or I to decide wether they be independent or not so keep your pathological distortions out of it.
Oil is not supposed to be found in large quantities eh? Is that a translation mistake or is it the Malvinista script? They will find what they find whatever they are supposed to find or not according to the Malvinista screen-play. It isn't the quantity that counts at any rate but what they do with the cash that they earn.
FI will depend on the UK with its very small garrison so long as it needs to and so long as Argentina remains a threat. It is none of your business either way.
The conclusion is that the actual situation is not static. The FI population will grow and the economy will expand regardless of Argentinian intentions or actions. To you, long term is 10, 20 or 30 years. To us long term is well beyond our life times. It is centuries. You lot are way to childlike to be able to wait that long.
@25 and all twots that still think the falklands are called malv-something
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You are all walking blind....... U want a mapto lead u to the right path? Sure they have them in RG brail now! Brits are good at maps we can send u some (btw north is at the top). Oh .......@25. Who owns the falklands now? Who is going to own them till the day you die? Haha........u should start a new crusade!!!
Remember Carlos Gamerro's words. In 1982 the Argenitnes were winning, winning, winning and then one day they just lost?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Take old JUBA at post 36. WTF! Although what he writes is nonsensical it reveals that Malvinistas have fallen into the same trap. Hence all the carping and cajoling and claiming and all the other bollox the AG gets up to these days.
They will be winning, winning, winning forever but they will never actually win. One day, somebody is bound to notice.
@40
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Deutscher, you don;t have any rights. All you have is a legal claim based on an inheritance from Spain that was never left to you, and a moral claim based on an expulsion of civilians that never happened.
As if that wasn't already flimsy enough, you went to war with this and lost.
And still the myth persists. It's quite fascinating to behold, but eventually it will shrivel up like all other myths.
Even if (and its a huge if) these somehow gave Argentina the FIs (the arguments against are explianed very well above) How exacly would it apply to South Samwich Islands, South Georgia and the British Antartic terrirory. Claiming these sections only weakens the claim. Artcile also failed to mention that the French only agreed to hand over the islands after the Spanish invaded. Also, the islands are not attached to the mainland and where over 1,000 miles away from any territory of the Provinces of the Rio Plata at the time of Independence from Spain, Patagonia was not part of Argentina untill the 1870s (when 50 years after they claim they were a victim of colonism, they colonised the area of Patagonia) and so territoral integrity does not apply, and so Argentina could never of inherited them from Spain (at most they inherited a claim). The point was, is and will also be that self determination of the population holds prescednce even in cases of disputed sovernguity and the UN general Council (much higher a body that the C24) has asserted this many times the last being in October 2008. http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/gaspd406.doc.htm
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The UN has always, does and will allows remain neutral in this matter. i.e. the UN has never, does not and will never support Argentine claims, they will only call on the two parties to discuss the issue (please note this does not mean they call for talks on the handing over of the islands).
Unfortuantly with growing internal problems the ARgentine government will make great use of this issue as a distraction tecnique in the same way as the milatry Junta (which CFK, suposandly hates) did. The Falklands are politcal tool invented by Peron to distract the people from poor leadership, unfortuantly Argentina hasnt grown up in the past 50 years and is still doing the same today.
@41. The fact is that IT WAS NOT DAVIS. This is part of british biased history.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The british had not been on the islands for about 70 years, when they took control of them by force in 1833. This is a fact too. I have read several english story books and all they find very difficult how to explain what happened those days.
It was not a translation mistake. I make mistakes because english is not my mother tongue. I speak several languages and you maybe one.
The economy of the islands have a limit, and you are aproaching it little by little. I can see that in 200 years your grandchildren will hold an argentine flag celebratin the 25. Mai....I can see it, I can feel it......Sorry!
@12 Boovis
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~23977~870022
Absolutely right. The Foreign Office or FIG should definitely donate a huge framed copy of this to KFC & Co. Send one to those historically ignorant or disingenuous cretins in Brazil too for their obviously incomplete reference library.
It would be representation of “love and solidarity with strong historic, symbolic and political value” between the people of the Falkland Islands and the UK.
@46 deutscher (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:41 pm
No. The fact is that it makes no difference who found them first. It, like all Malvinista arguments is utterly, totally, 100% irrelevant.
@44 Hans, since you told me that Argentina has no rights over the islands, tell me what rights has the UK. Otherwise I could think that you are a german living in the FI, and of course if you pronounce there the word “Argentina” you are killed inmediatly.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0One of them pretending to be German now? When will they realise that only Argentines and consequently Brits are interested in this topic?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@46 deutscher (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 02:41 pm
“It was not a translation mistake. I make mistakes because english is not my mother tongue. I speak several languages and you maybe one.”
Don't talk shit. You might count yourself clever that you can speak several different languages but if you can only communicate effectively in one of them, the rest don't count. They are as useless to you as they are to the people that you are speaking to.
“The economy of the islands have a limit, and you are aproaching it little by little. I can see that in 200 years your grandchildren will hold an argentine flag celebratin the 25. Mai....I can see it, I can feel it......Sorry!”
All economies have a limit SFB but the FI are only just beginning to explore theirs. With the oil and gas comes money, with money comes investment, jobs, homes, new industries, more investment, more opportunities and on and on and on.
Maybe your understanding of economics is the same as your understanding of languages other than your native tongue. Superficially impressive but practically useless.
The UK's rights are based on 180 years of continuous occupation and administration, and the islanders' rights on the principle of self-determination. There is no more necessary than this, and there is no need to go through the whole recitation yet again on here.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0And you might be right that one day children on the Falklands will celebrate the 25 May, stranger things have happened. But if that ever does come about, it will come about through choice rather than colonialism, and all Argentina's current efforts might as well have been designed to ensure that it never does.
@51 Sorry, but at the end of the conflict there were 2000 islanders, now there are 3000, thirty years ago!. So, what kind of economic boom are you talking about?? The economic growth is only related to the fact that before the war you were a poor foolish discriminated and forgotten farmer of a dependent territory and now you live in a normal way.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All of you talk about the war, as something unwanted, but actually, you DO CELEBRATE that it happened, just because UK started to pay attention to you. I repeat: forgotten, discriminated, poor and foolish farmer...
I can comunicate with you well, just enough to make you feel angry and answer my posts, just because I think different.
@49
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“@44 Hans, since you told me that Argentina has no rights over the islands, tell me what rights has the UK”
The UK has the right to defend a British Overseas territory (that's us) from annexation by a more powerful neighbouring state. No matter how you try to spin it as a bilateral issue between Argentina and the UK the truth is that we are the deciding factor, us, the Falkland Islanders.
@53 deutscher (#)
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:21 pm
Do yourself a favour Guzz. Get a life.
@37: so basically you're saying the islands were discovered by someone, we don't know who they were, but they were spanish or portuguese... well that's me convinced, who needs actual evidence when you have such clear, thought out logic as this. Good on you, here: take the islands. Jeez....
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@52. I recognize, It is a right, but you forgot to explain how started this occupation. It is not clear for brits. After this occupation in 1833, Argentina protested peacefully several times until now (except in 1982), against this occupation.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UK occupied the islands by force, put british on them, now UK want that people to decide. Sounds strange and cheat...
Boovis @ 16
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Perhaps you're right. Either way, it's up to the Falklanders to decide.
25 & 32 & 37 save that shit for your own people they are use to believing any bull thrown at them, to them its food for pipe dreams.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 03:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0so dream on!!! while we drill on!!!
@39 because there aspirations are few, pretty grim outlook for the argtards.
@36 chuckle chuckle chuckle JUBA YOU have set the bar as the typical Argtard deviant, and I love you for it and as long as there are hopeless fukers like you about i will never be down, chuckle chuckle chuckle, does your carer know you are on the internet again? chuckle chuckle
heres some medication for you JUBA !SELF DETERMINATION!!! I know its hard to swallow and leaves a bitter taste but you will get use to it as will all other argtards. chuckle chuckle
@46 please tell me more about your “mother tongue” is that what you use it for? theres laws against that. as for another language why would anybody who speaks the most widely used language in the world and also the official business language in the world wish to speak the tongue of a 3rd world mother?? you can keep your tongue, now i know where its been.
Strange how you felt the need to comment in The glorious language that is The Queens English and on an English speaking website instead of your own tinpot language, at least you seen sense to have a go at the greatest language on earth by the greatest people on earth :) Cheerio! poppet
Pictures of UK's destroyer off alleged Malvinas shore unveiled'
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/110123/pictures-of-uks-destroyer-off-alleged-malvinas-shore-unveiled-
@57
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You missed a few facts out in that analyses there where long periods between the 1830s and the 1940s where the Argentine government did not mention the islands to the UK. On various occasions in this time a number of statements were made at the highest levels of the Argentine govenment that could be intepreted as laying aside all claim. For example In November 1849 a peace treaty was signed called the “Convention Between Great Britan and the Argentine Confederation, for the settlement of existing differences and the re-stablishment of friendship”. The Falklands where not mentioned in this document as an exception therefore assumed to be resolved. After this data the Falkland Islands where not mentioned in the Argentine congress until 1941 (91 years). However from 1833-1849 they where mentioned frequently and other terriotrial disputes (Chile and Brazil) where metioned in the Congress during the 1849-1941 time scale. After 1849 the Argentine govenment did not even mention the Islands to the British govenment untill 1884 (34 years) and there was no formal protest untill 1888 (38 years). After this single protest in 1888 there was not a further protest for the entire 19th century and will into the 20th century.
The idea therefore that te Argentine govenment has maintained a permanent complaint is a complete and utter fallacy.
http://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/gettingitright.pdf
Regardless of any historical argument or claims prior to 1833 (and many historians regard the Argentine occupation as ending in failure when the penal colony murdered the acting govenor in 1832 and given that British hisotry in the islands dated back to 1765) the UN has made clear that the principle of self determination of the curent population holds presedence over anything else. If not the whole world would have to return to border prior any colonisation i.e. Argentine ceases to exisit as a soverign nation.
http://britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/gettingitright.pdf
Chilean Foreign Minister receives in Santiago Malvinas solidarity group
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.latribuna.hn/2012/08/29/canciller-chileno-recibe-en-santiago-a-grupo-de-solidaridad-con-malvinas/
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158311: Without going into details, which the character limit make it impossible to do, and which would be wasted on this forum, there are a number of paths by which Las Malvinas will return to Argentina. Conversely, there are no paths by which the UK can maintain its invasion of the island. It follows that the islands must return to Argentina.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@63
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is neither impossible to do within the character limit you mearly need to condense your argument, (I managed it in post 61 above), nor will it be lost on all in here, if you have valid arguments with evidence to back the claim up then please tell us.
I agree there are a number of paths by which sovernighty could be handed over (not handed back) however they all require the consent of the current population who under the UN charter have a right to self dtermination which the UN stated in October 2008 www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/gaspd406.doc.htm
Holds presedence even in acse of dispute. It therefore follows that the UK has a valid argument based on intenrtional law to continue to give the population the right to self dtermination. It therefore follows and by deffintion that Argentine is attmepting the colonisation of a peacefull population.
I would suggets the reason you find it imposible to make an argument is more likely to be that you dont have a valid argument which is based on anything other than lies, conspiracy theories or the nationailst sentiment which could actually stand up to counter argument .
By all, proove me wrong.
@63 that funny im sure The Prosperous Falklands People have successfully maintained themselves with little help from the UK for nearly 200 years, and the only time they needed full assisstance is when Argtards decided to strip them of their human rights and their peaceful existence, do you remember back in 82 that dreadful defeat at the hands of the far flung glorious little nation of UNITED KINGDOM , a massive mistake in my book but thats another issue.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Without going into details, which the character limit make it impossible to do, and which would be wasted on this forum”
please try, if you deem us worthy oh great prophet! so one can bathe in you sagacaties of enlightenment.
@57
Aug 29th, 2012 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Of all the straws that you clutch at, the “implanted population” one is probably the one least able to keep you afloat.
Poor, discriminated, foolish, apathetic, alcoholic and forgotten farmers are the population of FI.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 05:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Thank Galtieri now UK take care of them a bit more.-
@67
Aug 29th, 2012 - 05:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0As a German you would know all about taking care of people wouldn't you?
If the map is before 1764 then I expect it to barren like the British maps.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 05:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If from 1764 I expect the French settlement of Port St. Louis to be there.
If from 1765 I expect the British settlement of Port Egmont to be there as well.
Regardless of how the map makers old Spain viewed the Treaty of Tordesillas- possibly the greatest joke humanity has ever produced.
Ahh I see Guzz ( Toby, TTT et al) has another new name! Yea! Too bad he is just as dumb under this new character.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think most of the old regular Rgs that used to post can no longer afford internet service. Too bad!
@67
Aug 29th, 2012 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Great stuff, deutscher. Way to ensure the islands will never be Argentine.
Just a little off topic but since oil/gas is so important to the Falklands here is another reason to be happy you are not part of Arg:
Aug 29th, 2012 - 06:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0YPF laid out its challenges in black and white in a 400-page legal filing to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission in April. It ended 2011 nearly $1.8 billion short of “working cash,” and most of its $12 billion in debt is due in less than a year. Much of this debt, the company said, has “acceleration clauses” that can require immediate repayment if control of the company changes. Disputes over much of that money, such as the $10.5 billion Repsol is demanding for its controlling shares, may end up in international courts. ( no surprise here)
Yankeeboy:
Aug 29th, 2012 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentinian Govt arguing with the US Govt is likely to have a short ending with the Argentina Government losing. but what is this dispute? Can you link us a page mate. I know nothing about this.
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158381: There is very little in your “61 above” which is relevant. And, certainly, the press clipping you link to has no relevance at all. The present population of Las Malvinas have no right to vote on the secession of the islands from Argentina.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 06:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Since I am predicting the future I cannot see how “lies” and “conspiracy theories”, both of which necessarily reflect on the past, can apply. And, since I am neither an Argentinian citizen nor a resident of Argentina “nationalist sentiment” can play no part in my arguments either.
So it would seem that an as yet unknown discovered our Islands 70 years earlier than Davis. If this is true then where is the evidance of ownership because I have heard this story before and even shown supposed Chinese maps but the question is NO ONE made a state claim. The other interesting fact is that no matter who actually claims to have discovered them. The islands have never belonged to Argentina. Yes Spain tried to be smart ad occupy them even though they were aware of the British stated claim to the King. But who am I to argue either way that was way before so called Argentina existed. If the Argentines were to be honest instead of lying they have in fact no claim on this land at all. Further to that their claiming South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands purly because thay know that Britain has always owned them and those two Islands were never any part of any dispute between France or Spain. So is it not time that this reduiculous saga was put to bed. We are here living and working our land and You Argentina have all the land you need . Stop trying to dominate the entire Latin Americas because that is what you are doing. The Falklands are just a part of your far reaching claims. 99 % of which the world knows is Ilegal. Stop bieng spoiled children and start growing up a bit. Remember we Islanders have never caused you any harm quite the opisite. Truth is that the only reason in this modern time for wanting the Islands is OIL. You know it is there we Know where it is and WE are going to recover it with or without your stupid winging.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Hepatia:
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 01690: The British claimed the Falklands, long before Argentina even existed.
They are now a nation. This forum is a revolving door where one of you Argentinian idiots sticks your head up and then vanishes again.
1690: Britain claims the Falklands.
1764: A French settlement founded.
1765: A British settlement founded
1815: Argentina exists.
How many times do you numb nuts need to learn history?
The nation is called “The Falkland Islands” as well.
Please excuse the Falkland Islanders for not wanting to belong to the World's top protectionist country, a country that has international trade disputes running with the USA, EU, Japan, and Mexico, a country that is regarded by a pariah state by international money lenders.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0An old but interesting article relevant to this story
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Old map refutes Argentine sovereignty claim'
http://www.asiapacificms.com/articles/argentine_sovereignty/
@57 Could you explain how it is that argieland took Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego by force and occupies that territory to this day? The slight difference is that Britain was ejecting trespassers. And didn't kill anyone. Argies, on the other hand, were engaged in a genocidal war of conquest and killed millions. Rights, AND the moral high ground. Did you not learn in 1939-45?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@63 You're dreaming, hepatitis.
@67 Desperate kraut argie.
@74 You must be seriously brain-dead. At what point in time was it agreed or accepted that the Falkland Islands belonged to Spain or argieland? The answer you are looking for is: Never. “Secession”? In your dreams, hepatitis. The Falkland Islands are a BRITISH OVERSEAS TERRITORY! No mention of cesspit argieland, is there? You have ONE flag on the Islands. In the best place for it. A cemetery.
All that aside Brit Bob for now
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”Sovereignty over the Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas in Spanish) is disputed between Argentina and the United Kingdom.
The British claim to sovereignty dates from 1690, and the United Kingdom has exercised de facto sovereignty over the archipelago almost continuously since 1833. Argentina has long disputed this claim, having been in control of the islands for a brief period prior to 1833. The dispute escalated in 1982, when Argentina invaded the islands, precipitating the Falklands War.
Contemporary Falkland Islanders prefer to remain British.[1] They gained full British citizenship with the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, after the Falklands War.”
Contents
If you disagree over their right to exist then as the Welsh first settled Patagonia we want it back,
Aah! Why is the Argentinian government just so fucking childish. What is is simply what is.
@Hepatia
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 01 question...
Why would the Falkland Islanders choose to become part of Argentina, instead of becoming an independent nation?
Thanks for your reply in advance
@74
Aug 29th, 2012 - 07:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You have still attmepting the dodge the argument thought and have still to present any evidence or even a hypothisis as to the ways in which you see the Islands being handed over.
Also please explain to me how the fact that the Argentine government apepared to have accepted British soverngity over the islands is irrelvent to a argument about sovernigity? In addition the article I pasted in 61 is not a press clipping, it is a piece of accademic reserch which refutes the Argentines claim of history (in addition it contains all the sources used to derive those arguments) Im sorry it disagrees with your perception of the events but unfortuantly for you this is how arguments in law are conducted (i.e. with the evidence to substantiate the claims), You cannot just attack the creadability of the report (by attmeping to suggest it is mearly a press article) in order to do that you must attack the argumemnts made and therefore the evidence by citing your own evidence sources which discredit those made in the article.
In addition, you are basing your argument for Argentine sovernigity on a hisotrical claim and therefore on the events of history, therefore how can my argument (which adresses the events of history) be irrelevent? Once again I challenege you to actual adress my arguments and evidence not mearly mismiss my sources with no justification. Additionaly, if your argument of Argentine sovernigty is not based on hisotry then please tell me how basis the claim is being made on so that I can adress those issues.
Since Montevideo was the garrison of the Her Spanish Majesty’s navy, the Malvinas actually depended from what is today’s Uruguay capital and not from Buenos Aires. Wrong.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The islands depended administratively on Buenos Aires.
However, Montevideo possessed a deeper water port therefore thence departing spanish vessels. Come on Merco!!!
Currently guarding the Falklands
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/416740_352080161542739_479595722_o.jpg
Chuckle chuckle
I dunno mate.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After us British had to fight the Yanks, French and Spanish all at the same time our government was bankrupt. The war against the USA was lost, and good: I support freedom.
We then withdrew from many colonies to reduce costs, just like Mauritius etc the UK government withdrew it's authority from the Falklands for a while.
As a result the Spanish colonials in Argentina think they have some right over the Falklanders. They don't. They are free to be free, but need us to look over them as the USA has no balls unless it's her own freedom. (The so called protector of the free world).
One day the Falklanders will be really free, but not as long as an anal nation like Argentina exists.
it is completely pointless trying to talk sense to these argentine trolls armed with their government half truths and created history hell bent on irrational thought and reason they do not want to hear anything other than “Yes you can have The Falklands” and that isnt happening unless The Falklands so wish,
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Argentina and UK will be riding this soverignty roundabout for a very long time until Argentina sees sense , or Argentina makes a grave mistake yet again, which as past history has shown, The UK only finishes, however we didnt make it clear enough.
“If we NEED to defend British Soil, be sure we NEED take it to Argentines soil”
@Pirate Love
Aug 29th, 2012 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yep, I think it has to be Buones Aires next time with the provinces given to the surrounding nations. Even before I read about the Argentinian goverment it depresses me. They really know how to piss people off.
I have an old map that doesn't show Argentina at all...........
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Can I have a copy Frank!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0'Barrick Wades into Falkland Dispute with Ottawa Lobbying'
Aug 29th, 2012 - 09:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0http://blogs.wsj.com/canadarealtime/2012/08/29/barrick-wades-into-falkland-dispute-with-ottawa-lobbying/
Yes, except Moreno worked for the British, not the United Provinces. Journalists!
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I hope you guys support them.
Are we now going to see infant school kids in Argentina learning to draw an outline of the Falklands on an Etch-a-Sketch? If so i hope they do a better job than that map.
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Oh sorry, I guess Argentine schools are not allowed to import a supply of Etch-a-Sketches unless they export something? That is if they can even afford them.
Who was the person that posted the cartoon the Argentinian government did of nippers being kicked off the Falklands? Not only untrue but really worrying they used children to do it?
Aug 29th, 2012 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I've nothing against the Argentinian people, but what their government did was discusting,
@92 & @93,
Aug 29th, 2012 - 11:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0you may have seen this video and for those who have yet to see this video its very eye opening and shows Argentinas twisted mentality has no boundaries or morals!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EJeM6ifRbA
have we just witnessed the grooming of the future argentine war dead?
far fetched? is it? la campora is already active in schools and has been encouraged by argentinas dear leader to make schools militant!
despicable appauling behaviour! to go on and corrupt an innocent child for political gain, is just plain evil!!
With apologies to Bloody Mary and her remarks about the loss of Calais, perhaps Cristina should take a leaf out of her book: “When I am dead and opened you will find the Islas Malvinas Fantasy Islands emblazoned on my heart” By the way was an autopsy ever done on Eva Braun?
Aug 30th, 2012 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://falklandsnews.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/canada-supports-the-self-determination-of-the-people-of-the-falkland-islands/
Aug 30th, 2012 - 01:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0:-)
@ 49 deutscher
Aug 30th, 2012 - 01:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0The UK has the same right to the Falkland Islands as present day Argentines have to Argentina - the right of possession (uti possidetis, ita possideatis = Who owns by fact, owns by right).
South America was inhabited more than 13,000 years ago by what is called the indigenous people or Ameroindians (something you ought to know).
Spain took their land in the 16th century and in 1816 their descendants rebelled and took it from Spain (which only accepted this as late as 1859), thus if the UK does not have a right to the Falkland Islands, the Argentinos do not have the right to Argentina and vice versa.
@97 ”- the right of possession (uti possidetis, ita possideatis = Who owns by fact, owns by right).”
Aug 30th, 2012 - 02:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0Thanks John for defending the Argentine case.
Ah John, we're talking about modern states that subscribe laws and treaties to be respected.
The UK usurped the islands of a fully recognized state and if the UK had a case, forsake civilized means to make your claim.
@ 57 deutscher
Aug 30th, 2012 - 02:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0”After this occupation in 1833, Argentina protested peacefully several times until now (except in 1982), against this occupation.”
As has been shown very clearly, Argentina ceded her claim on the Falkland Islands in the peace treaty of 1850, confirmed by two later presidents: Mitre in 1865 and Sarmiento in 1869 plus vice president Paz in 1866.
The official Argentine protests ended in 1849, and except for one single diplomatic letter in 1888, no further official protests were made before 1941 (91 years with only one single letter of protest i.e. an outlyer) during “la Década Infame” (The Infamous Decade) - one of numerous Argentine dictatorships in deep trouble and in need of raising national fervor, same as Galtieri in 1982 following the largest ever protest in front of Casa Rosada.
Read the (unfortunately incomplete) discussion in http://en.mercopress.com/2012/06/20/argentina-s-diplomatic-circus#comment138084
As can be seen in that debate, only a couple of Argentinos have done any serious research, the rest are simple blabbering what they have been indoctrinated in school by half truths and half and whole lies to believe - they don't actually know, what they are talking about.
- - -
Inheritance?
Argentines claim that Britain took the Falkland Islands by force in 1833. Let us assume this is correct.
We know for a dead cert that (present day) Argentina took the country from Spain by force in 1810/1816, and yet they claim that they *inherited* what belonged to Spain as if rebels can *inherit* their master's property against the master's will.
So we have:
1. Britain took the Falkland Islands by force.
2. Argentina took the country by force.
Using the same standard, Britain thus *inherited* the Falkland Islands.
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158443: I appreciate your frustration. If only there was some remedy. ... Hey, I know, why don't you get your police to hunt down another young Brazilian man in the streets of London and waste him. That will be a great moral lifter for you!
Aug 30th, 2012 - 02:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0This one is for you Argentina. The Falklands are British and most deffinatly now belong to it's inhabitants who have lived there for almost 200 years. That is a fact and we are all kelpers and very proud to be British
Aug 30th, 2012 - 02:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Poem. Your on your own Argentina.
Your on your own Argentina
That there is no doubt.
You whinge and wine all day long
In your attempts to kick us out.
You are so determined to kick us out
From these Islands you have no chance
This Country you are trying to steel
Actually never did belong to France.
The French did just like you do
They forced themselves upon these shores'
Eventually though they had to leave
But they had to settle some old scores.
Europeans tried to take Great Britain
But she gave them all a bloody nose.
So France proposed to give to Spain
Our Islands so the story goes.
Then shortly after that all took place
Argentina was created.
They too saw an opportunity
To strike at Britain they also hated.
The Falklands issue was soon raised
The Argentines claim they are theirs.
But they never reckoned on the Local people
Would stop them dead for 200 years.
Now these Islands have been subjected
To the Argentine bullying tactics.
But our message to you Argie Gits
They are ours you crazy fanatics.
@ 98 Malvinense 1833
Aug 30th, 2012 - 02:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Hi again, Hermes1967 - long time, no see; I was afriad something untowards had happened to you - I suggest use your previous pseudonym.
'uti possidetis, ita possideatis = Who owns by fact, owns by right' was used by all the new states in South America (including el Virreinato del Río de la Plata) to claim their right of the Spanish colonies; also by the new states in Africa as late as 1964 and the principle was affirmed by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the 1986 Case Burkina-Faso v Mali:
“In 1821, independence from Spain caused the Provinces that had originally formed the Captaincy General of Guatemala to become the Federation of Central American States. By the principle of uti possidetis juris, sovereignty over all islands under the former jurisdiction of the Captaincy devolved onto the newly independent Federation by virtue of an original title in the colonial era.”
“[Uti possidetis] is a general principle, which is logically connected with the phenomenon of obtaining independence, wherever it occurs. Its obvious purpose is to prevent the independence and stability of new states being endangered by fratricidal struggles provoked by the changing of frontiers following the withdrawal of the administering power.”
and as late as 2007 in the shape of 'NO PREVIOUS uti possidetis juris exists':
International Court Of Justice, Reports Of Judgments, Advisory Opinions and Orders, Case Concerning Territorial and Maritime Dispute Between Nicaragua and Honduras in the Caribbean Sea (Nicaragua V. Honduras), Judgment Of 8 October 2007
24 Lord Ton (#)
Aug 30th, 2012 - 04:05 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Just as well that the British owned the islands from 1765”
Mr Lorton, read your own books please.
The British Empire
“Three years later, the British did formally leave the islands and they passed into the Spanish Empire for the next forty years. This arrangement was formally recognised by the British in the 1790 Nootka Sound Convention by which Britain formally rejected any colonial ambitions in 'South America and the islands adjacent'. It also reflected a weakening of British power in the Western Hemisphere coming shortly after the embarrassing loss of the 13 colonies partly thanks to French and Spanish intervention.
The Spanish claim on the islands would falter with the South American Wars for Independence at the start of the nineteenth century. The Spanish removed their formal representative and settlers from the island from 1810 and completed it by 1811. The islands were left to their own fate for the next decade as sealing and whaling ships might call in from time to time to take advantage of the harbour and fresh water. It was not to be until 1820 that the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata would send a frigate to the islands in order to assert their control as part of the legacy of post-colonial Spanish claims to authority there. Buenos Aires would appoint their first governor in 1823 who tried to limit the whole-scale slaughter of seals which were in danger of being made extinct on the islands. A penal colony was also established on the island”
@ 98 Malvinense 1833 who writes:
Aug 30th, 2012 - 04:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0“ we're talking about modern states that subscribe laws and treaties to be respected.”
Golly!
Is that as in 'The Beagle Conflict', which began when Argentina suddenly claimed sovereignity over the Chilean islands Picton, Lennox and Nueva islands in the Beagle Channel. In 1971, Chile and Argentina signed an agreement formally submitting the Beagle Channel issue to binding Beagle Channel Arbitration by an international tribunal. 02 May 1977 the court ruled that the islands and all adjacent formations belonged to Chile. 25 January 1978 Argentina declared the ruling null and void and prepared an invasion of Chile (Operación Soberanía) in which the Argentine Armed Forces expected between 30,000 and 50,000 dead in the course of the war.
After the invasion of the Falklands on 2 April 1982, the Argentine government planned the military occupation of the three islands in the Beagle channel, as stated by Brigadier Basilio Lami Dozo, chief of the Argentine Air Force during the Falklands war, in an interview with the Argentine magazine Perfil, “Para colmo, Galtieri dijo en un discurso: ”Que saquen el ejemplo de lo que estamos haciendo ahora porque después les toca a ellos“” ([Chile] have to know that what we are doing now, because they will be the next in turn.)
“modern states that subscribe laws and treaties to be respected” - yeah, right!
100
Aug 30th, 2012 - 05:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0Why do you keep changing your name on here?
What frustration? And how could getting the police to hunt down another illegal Brazillian help to ease it.
Grow up.
Good to see “no brain simian marcos” still copying and pasting!!
Aug 30th, 2012 - 05:15 am - Link - Report abuse 0http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=379619812107272&set=a.273791129356808.62468.254740114595243&type=1&ref=nf
Aug 30th, 2012 - 05:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0Chuckle chuckle
100- Better than hunting down native americans like your country did.
Aug 30th, 2012 - 07:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0@99
Aug 30th, 2012 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0Malvi provided an interesting pointer once, describing how “national awareness” of the Malvinas question was raised during the 1930s : http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/historia_de_malvinas.htm#08
One driving force in the process was the variously named Nationalist Youth Alliance, a semi-official militia led by one Juan Bautista Molina, who fancied himself as the Argentine Hitler. One of the “commandants” to members was “War against the Jew. Hatred towards the Jew. Death to the Jew.”
http://www.lagazeta.com.ar/historia_de_malvinas.htm#08
It's highly recommended in these kinds of circles, of course, to complement your anti-semitism with some kind of foreign enemy committing outrages against you, and even better if that foreign enemy isn't great mates with your idol Adolf.
What's the name of those islands again?
From “The Far Side of the World” by Patrick O'Brian , circa 1812.
Aug 30th, 2012 - 10:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0A series of novels about Captain Jack Aubrey, RN.
Made into a film starring Russell Crowe
A quote from the first chapter when Captain Aubrey has been despatched to the Pacific via the South Atlantic and around the Horn.
The political advice is as below.
“I am confident that we may put into San Martin, and Opresa, and of course the Brazilian San Salvador. I am far less sanguine about Buenos Aires and the River Plate, however. From the very beginning the region was colonised by the offscourings of the worst parts of Andalusia, slightly relieved by a few shiploads of criminals; and of recent years the mongrel descendants of these half-Moorish ruffians have been under the rule of a series of low demagogues, disreputable even by South American standards. There is already a great deal of ill will towards us, because of the recent action and their humiliating defeat; and since a tyrant's position is a little less insecure if the the discontent can be directed at a foreigner, who knows what imaginary crimes may not be fastened upon our people ?” ------------“I cannot recommend a visit to Buenos Aires ”
“I am entirely of your opinion ” cried the Admiral. “My brother was there when we took the town in the year 1806, and a nastier, dirtier place he had never seen, nor nastier dirtier people; and he was a prisoner of war there when a French officer assumed command and took it back again.”
Although a work of fiction, Mr. O'Brian researched his themes extensively from contemporary records. I can only presume that this dialogue was a summary of the prevailing conditions and thoughts at that time.
Plus ca change ?
Nice Map but the only map that counts is the official Argentine government “latzina” map showing the territories claimed by Argentina. It was submitted to the International Court of Justice during an island dispute with Chile. The map clearly showed the disputed islands belonged to Chile, pointing out that they are marked in beige on the Latzina map listing them outside of Argentine territory. The Falklands are also marked in beige on the map.
Aug 30th, 2012 - 10:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0@100
Aug 30th, 2012 - 12:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Now your learning the deffintion of irelevent, because the case of jean charles de menezes is absoutly and compeltly irelevent to a disucssion on sovernighty of a group of islands. I still see you compeltly dodging the arguments I have put to you tho. Do you actaully have an argument to present?
If you argument is morality then Argentina ( a country which activily kidnapped, murders and disposed of all and any politcal opposition during the milatry junta) has no right to take any moral high ground. Why dont you actualy adress the evidence in hand? You made a claim early that there are many routes by which the Islands “will be returned”. As the person making the positive claim the burden of proof falls upon you to demonstrate this. If you cant do this then your arguments are baseless and irrelevent.
Either put your money where your mouth is or keep it shut.
Nicely put “112 EnginnerAbroad ” Seems that most if not all claims from any Argentine is based on myths and not hard facts. Sadley though there are a heck of a lot of fanatical people in this world all trying to destroy someone or something. What I cannot understand in life is why if as the story goes we humans are the inteligent ones always seem to need to kill each other or take from one another something that does not belong to them. What happened to progress. The most bizzar thing is that usually those who steel from others never get to enjoy their illgotten gains because someone else is likely to do them some harm.
Aug 30th, 2012 - 12:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Funny old world. I do think that Argentina has a lot of growing up to do because no one who throws tantrums will get very far in life and that appears to be the problem in Argentina. They spend so much time trying to ruin others lives that they have forgotton how to live and exploit what they actually have. Reality is that we are here and no matter what is chucked our way we will not ever give up our right to live the life we choose period.
That why they are a joke country! Broken economy , government controls the press and issues lies in the form of propaganda, engineers incidents to use against the UK , sounds a bit like Nazi Germany...suppose some of those Nazi murderers given safe haven after murdering millions of Jews must have had influence in Argentina during the 50's and 60's
Aug 30th, 2012 - 04:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@ 109 HansNiesund
Aug 30th, 2012 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In the “Historia De Malvinas” you gave a link to, we are told:
“don Luis Vernet ... el expresado cargo de Comandante Político y Militar de las Islas Malvinas, delegando en su persona toda la autoridad y jurisdicción necesarias al efecto ... El nuevo mandatario toma posesión del cargo el 30 de agosto de 1829”
10 June 1829 the Government of the Province of Buenos Aires announces the “Political and Military Command of the Malvinas”. A date which is carefully NOT mentioned - because the “constitutional” and “legal” Argentine government, which gave Vernet title, was
General Juan Galo de Lavalle, who usurped the governorship of Buenos Aires 01 December 1828 (through 26 June 1829). Lavalle “executed” (not according to law, no trial, so it was not an execution but murder) the incumbent governor of Buenos Aires, Manuel Dorrego on 13 December 1828.
Very “constitutional” and very “legal” - the Argentine way.
@115
Aug 30th, 2012 - 07:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Another interesting thing in that document is the collapse of the Instituto Nacional de las Islas Malvinas y Adyacencias, after just one year, as a result of “controversy” over that other murderer, Gaucho Rivero.
And then this was replaced by the Instituto de las Islas Malvinas y Tierras Australes Argentinas, composed of historians, diplomats, members of the clergy, and members of the armed forces.
Clergy and armed forces together, now there's a scary combination.
@ 109 HansNiesund
Aug 30th, 2012 - 09:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Historia De Malvinas” you (originally Malvi) gave a link to is very interesting - everything it omits reveals that the Argentine author is knowing spreading lies.
Among other items it promotes the insane lie, that Antonio Rivero somehow should have fought the British. This poses a problem, because we know from contemporary diaries, written on the islands within days of the events, that those who were killed were in Vernet's employ.
Not only that, but there were no British authorities to fight with on the islands at the time.
Aug 30th, 2012 - 09:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@75 Kelperabout:
Aug 31st, 2012 - 12:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0You say that nobody ever claimed the Falklands.
Historians disagree:
British claim
John Byron
The British first landed on the Falklands in 1690, when Captain John Strong sailed through Falkland Sound, naming this passage of water after Anthony Cary, 5th Viscount of Falkland, the First Lord of the Admiralty at that time. The British were keen to settle the islands as they had the potential to be a strategic naval base for passage around Cape Horn.[9] In 1765, Captain John Byron landed on Saunders Island. He then explored the coasts of the other islands claiming the archipelago for Britain. The following year, Captain John MacBride returned to Saunders Island and constructed a fort named Port Egmont. The British later discovered the French colony at Port Saint Louis (founded 1764); initiating the first sovereignty dispute.[2]
In 1770 a Spanish military expedition was sent to the islands after authorities in Buenos Aries became aware of the British colony.[10] Facing a greater force, the British were expelled from Port Egmont. The colony was restored a year later following British threats of war over the islands.[2] However, in 1774, economic pressures leading up to the American Revolutionary War forced Great Britain to withdraw from the Falklands along with many of its other overseas settlements.[11] By 1776 the British had left Port Egmont, leaving behind a plaque asserting British sovereignty over the islands.[2] Although there was no British administration in the islands, British and American sealers routinely used them to hunt for seals, also taking on fresh water as well as feral cattle, pigs and even penguins for provisions. Whalers also used the islands to shelter from the South Atlantic weather and to take on fresh provisions.
Woodbine Parish
From this Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Falkland_Islands
It explains the former Spanish and French claims as well.
The conquistadors will not prevail! We all know who the imperialist are. You can plant all the torlgs you wish, we will exspell them. Islands 3000 miles from a nation that claims a national interest opposed from a national that can row a skiff to the occupied islands. Europe is dying....Argentina is ascending...we are a patient people, but are patience knows limits...
Aug 31st, 2012 - 12:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0119 Moriety (#)
Aug 31st, 2012 - 12:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0You are correct in what you say but what I reffered to was before Captain John Davis officialy documented his discovery of the Falklands. We all know the argument Argentines have about so called claims. that there have been many in the past 200 years but nowhere has anyone documented a claim to the Islands prior to that.
Untill someone does produce proven documented evidance that the Falkland were discovered before John Davis then by default it was Britain who first discovered the Islands. Truth is there is no evidance supporting ownership during these early years and that is why the Argentine case is so flawed. They in themselves never discovered anything but simply took what others found and they are still doing it today taht is fact.
You seem to be forgetting the thoughts and feelings of the Falklanders.
Aug 31st, 2012 - 12:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Stop being so European you European colomial.
@120.... rowing a skiff didn't work last time.... nor did sending the entire RG navy.
Aug 31st, 2012 - 02:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0Geography obviously isn't your strong point
Thank you Frank! I've been waiting to point out that my comment was at @120, not Kelperabout!
Aug 31st, 2012 - 02:25 am - Link - Report abuse 0It left me thinking about the Argentinians: I just don't get them.
These were my thoughts:
Sitting there frustrated as you cannot reply until another does left me wondering about the Argentinian psyche. Why are they so different to others?
They are the product of European colonialism, but somehow think they are not, as they tend to use the colonialism stuff when they talk about the Falklands.
They almost completely managed to annihilate the indigionous Native South Americans and then still went to war with every single colonial nation around them. But yet they scream about colonialism.
How, just how, did the Argentinian Spanish colonials turn out so different to their Chilean, Uruguayan, Paraguayan and Brazilian counterparts? It's just doing my head in! Was their war of independence super-heavy or something? What made this nation of colonial nut-jobs rant about about exactly that: colonialism, but then continue alone in the world by wanting to continue it?
They don't have the fun of the Brazilians, the commonsense of Chileans or the normality of the Uruguayan and Paraguayans. I just don't get them at all. They are simply obsessed with colonialism, but 97% of them are products of colonialism: The other 3% survivors of it.. How, just how are they like this?
Do their history lessons only start in 1815, skip the massacres, the inter-colonial wars and restart after WW2? I really cannot get my head round them.
http://en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158610: My prediction is that the administration of Las Malvinas will revert back to Argentina within the coming 25 years. I think I made this very clear previously.
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0If I was to make an argument it would be that the UK should save itself future pain and return the administration now.
The case of Menezes may be of no interest to you but it is of great interest to Americans. Its relevance here is to demonstrate the cruelty, brutality and the casual approach to the rule of law and due process of the nation that currently administers Las Malvinas. It is yet another reason why the Old World needs to be removed from the New World and, specifically why Las Malvinas needs to revert to Argentina.
Mass mafia migration from Sicily and other bits of southern Italy may have had a lot to do with it...
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:03 am - Link - Report abuse 0124 Moriety (#)
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0Me either. I do wonder which sector of the Argentines have this need for greed because I am sure that many millions of them who settled from places like Wales , scotland, Irland etc have no interest in human greed but just want to be citizens in their own country. However there is of course a very large chunk of Argentines who are direct decendants of war mongering people namely Spain and Germany so there maybe lies the answer to your head banging 124 Moriety (#)
@ 127 Kelperabout:
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:59 am - Link - Report abuse 0It's naked colonialism. Colonialism is dead, The planet as one poster from Canada pointed out was pretty well settled after WW2: As in those that wished to be free would get it, those that wished to remain with the “mother” nation could do so.
I'm really not head-banging. I just don't understand them.
They seem locked in a time-warp that the entire planet has moved on from.
We all learn about colonialism in history books now: Except Argentina where it seems to an official policy.
Here's an old (now fantasy) scenario: Turkey is an equal member of NATO.
Lets say Putin pushes it too far.
Will Turkish troops be rushed to Berlin, Paris or London if needed? You bet they will.
We live in a real world, not a fantasy one, or a time-warp.
I dunno mate. That was a poor example, but they are in a world of their own: I'm talking about their government, not the ordinary brain-washed folk.
The Spanish, Germans, French and British no longer have wars, now we just go to get a tan in the Southern nations whilst they go upto the Nothern states like the UK and Germany for fun and freedom and to enjoy life before they get older like me :)
We live in a separate century to them it seems.
To remind the Argentinians: this is the British having fun (try it some day,
before you get too old or even more miserable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vafE7DRsCow
@ 124 Moriety
Aug 31st, 2012 - 05:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0“It left me thinking about the Argentinians: I just don't get them.”
There are two Argentinas: Buenos Aires and the provinces (I have been living in Argentina).
Many in the provinces would like to build a “Berlin wall” and dig a canal around Buenos Aires so they are protected against the Porteños, whom they loathe.
Something has gone completely wrong in Buenos Aires - poisoned drinking water causing brain damage? low self esteem?
To the majority of Porteños you are smart if you can get something by cheating, stealing and lying; in the provinces the majority are honest, friendly and helpful - two countries.
@John
Aug 31st, 2012 - 06:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0Who are the Porderios? The provinces people I'd guess? I dunno mate, I see all as equal over here until proven stupid. I think Tobers and even Think can come out with some interesting stuff.
I didn't have to agree with them though, and I'm sure they respect my opinion on that.
Now they've been boxed in you get no alternative viewpoints others than the nutters like Raul.
I don't get them though, but have never been unable to understand them though as they seem so weird. Both Tobers and Think were rational when sensible.
Here;s my farewell to this board for at least a bit: it tries to explain to the Argentinians as they dont give a shit about themselves, and tries to explain to them, in music, that live is for living: (The first is above already)
So here are 4 songs: The first shows us British having fun: (and full screen for each song please!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vafE7DRsCow
The second shows us thinking about the dead our governments here in the UK and over in the USA has caused, and you hot-heads in Argentina want to repeat it with your boys and girls? (It starts LOUD then goes quiet).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vafE7DRsCow
The third is a neither here nor there song. It's about big city life such as Madrid, New York, London, Berlin or Paris. At least the Dutch dancer was able to explore life with the British band in the USA. It's called “Let forever be”. Something that gover......:)
The last is just quiet, beautiful and stunning. It may make you understand that at times governments are assholes who just end up getting people killed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vafE7DRsCow
@Hepatia
Aug 31st, 2012 - 09:56 am - Link - Report abuse 0In your dreams.
No govt over here will even think about talking to you about soverignty while the Falklands war of 1982 is in living memory.
Even if they did decide to do so, the Falklanders would resist (and be supported by the majority of the population of the UK). It would look like excactly what it would be - a sell out of British people to foreign aggressors. You would be imposing your rule on a hostile populace and effecively be running an occupied territory. That is, of course, assuming that you don't have the Falklanders deported en masse.
No govenment would survive the aftermath of such a sell out to you. They would be wiped from the electoral map and reviled nationally as traitors and cowards.
#120
Aug 31st, 2012 - 10:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0You got it right,first time. “The conquistadors will not prevail ”
The conquistadors were armed bands of Spanish/Portuguese colonialists who
“raped and pillaged ” their way across central and South America.
Their descendants are still trying it on !
@125
Aug 31st, 2012 - 11:11 am - Link - Report abuse 0“My prediction is that the administration of Las Malvinas will revert back to Argentina within the coming 25 years.”
My prediction is that when their economy is more developed they will be (as the UN prefer with former colonies as a part od de-colonialisation) an Independent nation in their own right supported in that by the UK (as was the case with Belize).
And the Argentines will still be whining like a baby without sweets for the next 1000 years.
Who drew a map seems a little irrelevant to me. I am a cartographer and I draw maps of a lot of things, even maps of ideas. So watch out, I may take over your thoughts or draw a map of your wallet.
Aug 31st, 2012 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0I drew a map of CFK's mind, but my publisher will not print a blank sheet of paper. She says, “Too many will think it is about the United Nations or a picture of Al Gore's ideas about settled science.”
Speaking of the UN, isn't there some kind of charter that mentions the opinions of those living on the land having the final choice of by who and how they want to be governed?
125 Hepatia
Aug 31st, 2012 - 02:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“ en.mercopress.com/2012/08/29/brazil-donates-argentina-malvinas-spanish-charts-dating-back-to-1770#comment158610: My prediction is that the administration of Las Malvinas will revert back to Argentina within the coming 25 years. I think I made this very clear previously.”
Seems 125 Hepatia you have not listened to anything anyone has been saying. When are you and all Argentines going to ever get it through your thick heads that our Country will NEVER in a million years let alone 25 years become Argentine. If I thought there was a life after death I would place a bet on it knowing I would be well rewarded.
No matter how many comments are posted on any issues with refferance to our home land no one on these Islands would want to be part of a history of any latin american countries especially that of Argentina, who have historically aquired everything they now own by brute force. I personally would not want my future generations growing up with that kind of history hanging over them no sir..
Best thing that any decent Argie could do is kick out your crazy empty headed leader and all those that follow her then you may heve the beginning of a truly democratic country that people could look up to . But untill that happens we certainly want no part of bieng associated with you. Our people have matured past the third world stage and are many light years ahead of Argentina weather you like ot or not.
@Hepatia
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Please stop dodging my question!
Why would the Falkland Islanders choose to become part of Argentina, instead of becoming an independent nation?
Kelper. Keep at it mate. If you give in we in Uruguay are next on the list for “reconquest” of “lost” terretories.Remember the Ribbentrop pact when the Nazis and Stalin split up independent Poland between them?
Aug 31st, 2012 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If anyone has the slightest vestigial historical claim to your islands it is Uruguay and we havent the slightest intention of chasing that cat and we have always maintained the best of relations with you islanders. But you must understand the realities of Realpolitik. We are a small nation sandwiched between two giants and we have no Royal Navy to back us up so our politicos belch out a lot of hot air about solidarity and in return we still get kicked in the teeth by our ogres north and south
@ 130 Moriety
Aug 31st, 2012 - 10:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0A Porteño (portenjo) is some one who lives in the port city = Buenos Aires.
Several of the Argentines on this board are as intelligent and reasonable as everybody else in the world, but they have been indoctrinated in school with a one sided view of the Falklands dispute since day one, and what they are told, excludes anything not in favor of the Argentine view, thus you get what seems to be wingnuts.
They probably aren't, but their minds are closed to any other view and they do not research the matter themselves. Compare to Hitler Jugend and the like - brainwashed from childhood.
137 redpoll . I know just what kind of pressure Uruguay face which does make it difficult for you to voice your true Countries views without upsetting this war mongering creature living virtually on your door step. But I do wonder if the whole of Uruguay stood up to be counted that Britain and her fellow nations through the united nations would come to your rescue. In fact I would boldly say that no democratic country would allow a dictator ( and Argentina in the eyes of the world are one) to take over any other state . Big Countries do not always represent massive power if they do not have the military back up to support them. Look what happened in 1982 when the Argentines invaded our homeland . Most of the South American Countries supported Argentina while they were in occupation because they were scared to do otherwise. However after the conflict many of those Countries admitted helping Britain behind the scenes. I am sure that is likely to be the case today.
Sep 01st, 2012 - 01:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes some acts of atrocities and mistakes have been made in the world but more than often it was necessary to put down a dictator and always those doing so come from democratic countries who do not support terror.
War and terror is always a means of scaremongering people into submission and seldom is to remove one single element of terror because we humans believe that if there is one on the pack there are often many more to take it’s place. But always the innocent suffer.
Oil in my opinion is the single biggest factor in anyone country going to war with another or put another way Human Greed.
I have seen various maps of SA which does not show Argentina owning any of what they do today so if I were to make up names and put them on it do you think I might get a chance of owning parts of south America:) The funny thing is that while a lot of them only show BA on them, the Falkland Islands Is clearly marked because at that time they had not flooded themselves further south when they killed the indians and they also sent a couple of soldiers down to watch those horrid people that had come over from the falklands (British) who were trying to spread faith within the the indians.
Sep 01st, 2012 - 02:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don't get why the f*** the Brazilian goverment gives so much support to this pointless Argentinian claim. What is funny is that in return for this, the Argies increase taxes on our exports to their country and also oppose to our bid to become a full member of security council. It's past time Brazilian polititians stopped being STUPID and let the Argentinians alone in this childish sabre rattling against the Brits.
Sep 03rd, 2012 - 01:34 am - Link - Report abuse 0It wasn't our fault. The illegal, unconstitutional, evil dictatorship did it.
Sep 03rd, 2012 - 05:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0In “The Question of Malvinas Islands and the Bicentennial of Argentina”, Federico Lorenz wrote:
“The disembarkation of April 2 [1982] was backed by several sectors of the Argentine society. Even many of the victims of the military dictatorship, in prison or in exile, agreed on the recovery, ...”
http://alfredoatanasof.com.ar/link_libro/the_question_of%20_malvinas_and_the_bicentennial.pdf
29 April 1982 Ernesto Sabato, a staunch opponent to the Junta wrote in the Argentine newspaper “La Nacion”:
“In Argentina it is not a military dictatorship that is fighting. It is the whole people, her women, her children,he old people, regardless of their political persuasion. Opponents to the regime like myself are fighting for our dignity, fighting to extricate the last vestiges of colonialism. Don't be mistaken, Europe, it is not a dictatorship that is fighting for the Malvinas; it is the whole nation.” (thanks to Lord Ton for this juicy text).
http://alfredoatanasof.com.ar/link_libro/the_question_of%20_malvinas_and_the_bicentennial.pdf
http://alfredoatanasof.com.ar/link_libro/the_question_of%20_malvinas_and_the_bicentennial.pdf
Yes it would seem that every Argentine not only has an axe to grind with the Falkland Islanders but with every neighbour and more noticable with each other. Seems to me that society in that area does not exist. Maybe we Islanders could offer our services to these third world rated people by educating them young and old alike. Lets say for the next 30 years or so because a new generation could be helped learn about the real world and not have to br told lies any more. Reckon it would be quite interesting don't you think.
Sep 03rd, 2012 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0@143
Sep 03rd, 2012 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Agreed. FIG are not perfect but they know how to:
1/- Manage a country without debt.
2/- Convince it's electorate to vote without throwing them bribes.
3/-Despite continual hostility from the west, manage to find people to invest in it's resources.
4/-Allow people to have whatever currency they wish.
5/-Run the second best run fishing zone in the world.
6/-Provide its citizens with free education including university.
7/- Allow your citizens to go abroad.
Therefore if the Argentines employed them as consultants, they would have a rich, properly run country.
Commenting for this story is now closed.
If you have a Facebook account, become a fan and comment on our Facebook Page!